Secrets of the Battenkill, with Doug Lyons

Tom: Hi, and welcome to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer, and my guest this week is Doug Lyons. Doug is the author of a recent book called "The Fly Fishing Guide to the Battenkill." And it just came out and it's a fantastic book. In fact, a lot of us locals feel it's a little bit too good of a book because it gives away a lot of secrets. But Doug has been a lifelong angler on the Battenkill. He really knows the river probably as well as anyone I know. And we're going to talk about the Battenkill and, you know, it's an iconic stream. It's known for its difficulty, and it has had some problems over the years. No one's sure exactly why because the water quality and the habitat are really good in the river, but the trout population in the 1990s kind of crashed, particularly the brown trout population.
And the Battenkill has come back and it's looking really healthy these days. So, Doug and I are going to talk a little bit about what the river is like, why the population perhaps crashed, why it's come back, and there's a bunch of secrets here that some of the locals aren't going to be very happy about. But that's okay because it's a public resource and it's a wonderful river and worth visiting. Just don't expect to catch any trout. No, actually, it's been pretty good this year. Before I do the Fly Box, I just had a couple of announcements. One is that you probably noticed that the podcasts have been dropping on Monday instead of Friday. It just works out better mainly for our producer and editor, Jamie Hathaway.
Jamie was the original instigator of the podcast and convinced me to do it many years ago when he was working social media for Orvis and he's now taken out a big job. He's head of the Make-a-Wish Foundation in both New York State and Vermont. But he still continues to edit the podcast because he loves it and it means a lot to him. And so, it just works out better for him because of his busy schedule to edit over the weekend, so we're going to be dropping the podcast on Monday. I hope that isn't a big inconvenience to any of you. And another thing, there are still one or two spots left on my hosted Bahamas trip to Swains Cay on Middle Bight on Andros. It's an incredibly beautiful lodge in an incredible location right in the center of some of the finest bonefishing in the Caribbean, and I'm really looking forward to it.
It's May 11th through 17th, and as I said, there's one or two spots left depending on whether you want a private room or not or whether you're willing to share a room. But if you're interested in these remaining spots, contact Orvis Travel, Dan Duvall is the guy to talk to and see if there's any space left. And then finally, I promised you that I try to talk about some products here and there, some Orvis products. And something you might have missed, I know I missed the fact that this product was available. I had seen prototypes of it a couple of years ago and I honestly missed it on the website, didn't realize it was available.
It's the Mirage pliers. These are probably some of the most beautiful fishing pliers you've ever seen. They are designed just for fly fishing. And we've had a pair of pliers made in USA, actually made in the same machine shop that makes Mirage reels and CFO reels and the reel seats on the Helios rods. And these other pliers are bigger pair of pliers. The original ones are bigger...they're called the Orvis pliers, bigger pair of pliers. But the Mirage pliers have much finer tips and I find them to be much better than the bigger pliers for things like trout, bonefish, bass, striped bass, you know, the smaller fish where you got smaller flies.
They're just a beautiful, beautiful pair of pliers, they will last a lifetime. And they're not cheap, but they are made in USA in a shop that specializes in making fly fishing products just for Orvis. And again they'll last you a lifetime, but you may be a little bit shocked at the price but I think they're worth it. They're just a beautiful tool to have when you're fishing. So, check out those Mirage pliers. And they come in two different colors too. All right, let's do the Fly Box, and let's start with an email. First one's from Curtis from Idaho Falls.
"I've been fishing brook trout in Michigan's Upper Peninsula for years, but I've never been introduced to fly fishing. I recently moved to southeastern Idaho for work and I knew I had to pick up fly fishing. I bought an Orvis Encounter 9 foot 5-weight a couple of months ago and absolutely love fly fishing. I've been trying to learn as much as possible and have picked it up very quickly thanks to this podcast and the Orvis Guide to Fly Fishing YouTube channel. I have been blessed enough to be able to catch some absolutely amazing fish so far between the Henry's Fork and South Fork of the Snake River as well as the Teton River. I have a couple of questions for you.
Number one. I have experimented with streamers here and there but have yet to really have any success with them. I usually pull them out when I am fishing big fish water. This is water that in my mind is capable of supporting very large fish. These are often deeper pools, back eddies are a convergence of different currents, etc. I've been trying to fish streamers with a floating line in a five to seven-foot leader. I've run into the issue where as soon as I start stripping the streamer back to me, it immediately starts to rise in the water column. I've used bigger and heavier streamers, added split shot, tried the slower retrieve.
Is this normal? Or should I be positioning myself differently with respect to the current? Or am I trying the streamer in the wrong type of water? Do I just need to bite the bullet and use a sinking line? What types of water have you found are most productive for streamers? Question two. I have caught some beautiful cutthroat trout so far here in Idaho. Yellowstone cutthroat on the Teton River and the beautiful Snake River, find spotted cutthroat on the South Fork. It seems that there are several different variations subspecies of cutthroat trout in the rivers and streams around southeastern Idaho. Do you have any tips for identifying exactly which subspecies is which? Not that it really matters because they're all gorgeous fish, they're going to put up a great fight, but just curious."
So, regarding your first question, Curtis, I think there's a couple of things to bear in mind. One is that if you're going to fish a floating line with streamers, you need a longer leader. You need a chance for that streamer to get down. And with a floating line, I tend to use a 9 or even a 12-foot leader because your floating line is obviously going to float. Your leader is going to sink a little bit. They don't sink as fast as a sinking line, but your leader is going to sink a little bit. And, you know, the longer your leader, the better the chance of that fly sinking. Whether it's a weighted streamer or you put a split shot on it, I think a longer leader will help.
The other thing is that you really need to fish streamers at the appropriate time. Fish aren't always going to jump on streamers. And generally, it's when under low light conditions, whether it's rain or snow or early in the morning or just before dark, those bigger fish are more likely to chase prey when the light is low. So, if you try those in the middle of the day in bright sunlight, you know, you might catch some fish on streamers, but it's not going to be as productive. And I don't think...you know, you want to try all different angles and methods and retrieves, you never know what is it going to appeal to the fish. And generally, if the fish are really on streamers, you can throw it almost any way and the fish are going to jump on it.
I mean, those conditions are rare but the occasional little bit of rise in water or a dark...you know, a rainstorm or something like that, the fish will really turn on the streamers and there, I think they're gonna just jump on it no matter what you do. But at times when they're not going to eagerly jump on a streamer, yeah, then you have to get down there. So, a longer leader...the other thing is, you know, if you don't want to buy a sinking line, you can try a sinking poly leader. You just loop that onto the end of your floating line and that will get your streamer down.
But I think it's probably just...I don't think it's the fly pattern or the way you're fishing them, it's probably just the time that you're fishing them and you need to just pull them out at certain times when you get low light level. So, give that a try and see how that works. Regarding being able to tell one cutthroat from another, it's really impossible to tell one subspecies from another without a DNA analysis. I mean, you can take a guess by looking at the spot patterns and the coloration and so on. But to really know for sure, there needs to be a DNA analysis. The best thing to do is to find out from the state where a particular subspecies of cutthroat is, and then go out and look for them there.
There are a couple of good books on cutthroat. One is called "Cutthroat: Native Trout of the West" by Patrick Trotter. It's a beautiful book, but it's also apparently out of print and it's very expensive, it's hundreds of dollars. But, you know, if you're really interested, it's worth it. I would also look at some of the books by James Prosek and Joseph Tomelleri. They've done some great...both of them have done some great books on various species of trout and have included drawings. They're both artists, they have included drawings. So, that's the place to look. But basically, the bottom line is you're not going to really know which cutthroat is which without a scientist checking the DNA.
Tanner: Hi, Tom. This is Tanner from beautiful Salt Lake City, Utah, calling for some tools advice, some tying tools advice. I've been tying on the same...with the same Wapsi kit for a couple of years, and have recently been given a budget by the boss to invest in some new tools. And I noticed...I went and was creeping around on some of your tie-off videos with Tim Flagler and I was able to use Google Image Search and take a screenshot and identify the scissors that you and Tim were using. I was able to identify the bobbin, the right bobbin that Tim was using, but I couldn't figure out...
I think you were using a Renzetti ruby tip bobbin but I was curious to know what bobbin, just standard general bobbin holder you prefer, if you prefer...and it looked like both of you are using hair stackers that were pretty old and I don't think that's, you know, some crazy technology. Do you prefer tools that come in an all-in-one kit, or are you kind of a one-off tools guy? If one-off tools guy, what would you suggest for scissors, bobbin, whip finisher tool? I don't know if that would matter as much, I think mine just works fine. Anything else that you think is specialized, or would you just go with an all-in-one kit? Thanks, Tom.
Tom: So, Tanner I think that, you know basically the tools you get in a kit are going to be the lower end of the tools and some of them are very useful. You know, dubbing needle's a dubbing needle. Whip finishers, yeah, there's not that much difference in them. I think that...and as far as a bobbin is concerned, I have dozens of bobbins and I just grab one...you know, I grab one from my bench when I'm tying. But I like the kind of traditional Mattarelli, Renzetti-type bobbin with just the two metal doodads that hang down from in a long tube. And I don't have any preference whether, you know, it's a ceramic insert in the tube or metal as long as the metal has been finely polished.
Sometimes you get a really cheap one and the metal hasn't been polished. It'll fray your thread, in which case you want to just throw the bobbin out and get a new one because there's not really any way you can fix that. But, you know, I just use...I don't use the fancy types like Tim Flagler, the right bobbin, or kind of the different bobbins. I find them to be a little clumsier and heavier and I just like, you know, really what's become the kind of traditional bobbin. But I don't have any special favorite bobbins. As far as stacker is concerned, I have probably dozens of stackers too. And I keep going back to the Renzetti stacker.
They're beautifully made, they'll last you a lifetime, and I just find them to work better than anything. They're a bit more expensive than the other stackers, but again, you know, you're going to be using it for the rest of your fly-tying life and I think it's worth the investment. Now, I think the most important things are your scissors. That's where you...in my opinion, that's where you want to spend your money and that's where you want to be critical. You know, the scissors that you get in a tool kit are going to be okay. But boy, you know, being able to cut right down to the tips and having a fine serration that grabs materials. Scissors are super important.
And I think you want to have kind of medium to small scissors for most of your work. You want to have a pair of really fine pointed scissors for, you know, cutting hackle away from the eye of the fly and trimming stuff where you really want to get in there. And then I really think you need a pair of high-quality long scissors for trimming big flies and for cutting foam and stuff like that. And then you also want to have a pair of cheap nail clippers or pliers for cutting things like wire that are going to ruin your scissors. So, the best scissors I've found for medium and fine work and they're my everyday scissors, they're the scissors I pick up 90% of the time are called Kopter scissors. K-O-P-T-E-R. I believe they're made in Italy.
And you can find these in some fly shops. Orvis is going to sell them. We have them in our warehouse and I don't think they've hit the website yet but keep an eye out for them. The Kopter scissors are going to be available from Orvis. Hareline distributes them. The best long scissors are expensive hair scissors, and the ones that I use are called faerie master and they're sold by Enrico Puglisi on his website. And then the best really fine-pointed scissors that I've found are Renomed, scissors from Wapsi. Some fly shops carry them. They're made in Poland and I think these are really good fine-pointed scissors.
The one thing you'd probably find and I find is that most fly shops don't carry the really expensive scissors. It's probably just a matter of they don't want to spend the money on inventory and they probably don't sell that many of them, but you may have to go online. It's rare to find the really, really high-quality scissors in a fly shop at least in my experience. I go in and they generally have the standard fly-tying scissors that every other fly shop has. So, you may have to go online and find the very, very best scissors. So, I hope that's helpful.
Here's an email from James from Louisville, Kentucky. "On the Orvis PRO line, there is a textured and a smooth. What is the reason for the texture and also pros and cons of each line? I will be using it on a 6-weight Clearwater rod." So, James, a number of differences. One is that the textured lines will shoot a little bit better. The texture acts like dimples on a golf ball or ball bearings and enables the line to shoot through the guides a little bit better and also shoot through the air a little bit better, and the textured lines seem to float just a little bit better in a floating line. But then again, there are some people who don't like the textured lines because they do make a sound when they go through the guides and some people just don't like that. So, they'll use the smooth line which doesn't make a noise and just feels better in the hand to some people.
So, there isn't a ton of difference. You know, if you're really worried about getting that extra bit of distance and extra flotation, I go to the textured. But you may not like the feel of the textured or the sound of the textured, and then go with the smooth line. They're both great lines. I kind of use them interchangeably. Some days I like to use a smooth line, some days I like to use a textured line, but they're both great lines. So, those are the main differences between those two lines.
Here's an email from Paul Olaf from Black Mountain, North Carolina. "Enjoy your podcast a great deal, although I must say my wife is no fan. When I play the podcast in the car on a longer road trip, as I always do, she immediately gives me an eye roll, turns to take a nap, and says, "Let me know when it's over." Oh, well, you can't make everyone happy." And Paul, I've heard that from lots of people. "Here are two questions. First, what is the story with reel prices today? They've gone through the roof for no apparent performance reason that I can discern and it seems to be the case no matter the manufacturer.
Is there a meaningful difference between a $150 reel and one costing $800? Sure, the exotic colors for the high-price reels are attractive, but is that it? A good angler friend who passed away a couple of years ago always told me that a reel is only there to store your line, a maxim with which I tend to agree. Second, I've been a dry fly angler for more than 25 years, and in that time, I've learned to distinguish a host of dry flies in my box, Yellow Sally from a Purple Haze or an Elk Hair Caddis from Parachute Adams, etc. But when it comes to identifying the real flies coming off a hatch, I must confess I am often baffled. How can I tell a mayfly from a caddis, for example? Is there a good research you could suggest? Should I shadow a guide to learn firsthand?"
So, Paul, first of all, reel prices. The big difference in reel prices is that the really expensive ones are made in the USA and the cheaper ones are imported, usually from Asia. There is a performance difference. And if you're just trout fishing for small stream trout and you never use the drag, you never have a fish run any line off your reel, then that's right, the reel is just a line storage device. However, if you're fishing for bigger trout with light tippets, you need a smooth drag and, you know, you need that line to go out smoothly without an initial hiccup that could break a tippet. And the higher price reels have a better drag system, a smoother drag system.
Materials are getting more expensive, you know, the raw materials used for reels, the expensive aluminum is getting more expensive. But you can get a pretty good imported fly reel with a pretty good drag these days. It's not gonna be as good as the American-made ones but that's the main difference. And don't forget, a reel is going to last a lifetime, so it's not like you have to replace it every couple of years like a pair of waders or something. It's going to last you a long time. Telling one insect from another, I think it's important to the order level. In other words, you need to know a mayfly from a caddisfly from a stonefly from a midge from a terrestrial, etc.
And there are lots and lots and lots of books out there that can get pretty confusing and pretty detailed. What I would suggest you start off with is go to the Orvis Learning Center, go to the Videos, and go to the Advanced Intermediate Videos, and then there's a series of videos in there called "Hatches." And this will give you kind of a basic outline of how to identify the insects. And then I also have a book called "Hatch Strategies," which again will help you identify insects to the order level. So, those are a couple of resources you can start with, but there's lots and lots of books and lots of stuff online about the various aquatic insects.
Here's an email from Carl from Gothenburg, Sweden. "Recently I picked up a split cane rod at a garage sale for a bargain of a price. The problem, neither I nor the seller know what the class of the rod is. Searching on the internet has not helped much either. The only thing I have found so far is that it was made by an old and at least to me relatively unknown rod crafter in Norway. For graphite rod, I would not be hesitant to try different line classes on the rod without having a fear it would break. But since I'm new to split cane rods, I'm not sure I dare to do the same thing with this one. I know you have answered this question many times for graphite rods and perhaps also for split cane. But how high is the risk of breaking a split cane rod due to heavy lines? Do I dare put on a number five and try a few careful casts? Or should I start out with a lighter line?"
Well, Carl, it's a good question. Not knowing the shape that the rod is in, you know it could have some fractures in it from careless use or just from age, and depending on whether it's a varnished rod, in other words, a rod that didn't use modern glues and had to be varnished to seal it from moisture, a little bit difficult to tell. But there's a couple of things you could do. One is that, unlike graphite rods, I feel that I can't really pick up a graphite rod and wiggle it and figure out what line size might go on it. I might be close. However, with split cane rods or bamboo rods, they do have some mass and you can get a little bit better idea of what line to put on a rod with a bamboo rod just by wiggling it.
And if you may be taking it into a fly shop where you know somebody that knows rods or maybe you know him yourself and wiggle it, you may be able to determine about what line size it takes. But I don't think there is any problem with trying different lines on it. And I would start with a light line, I would start with a 4-weight line, just make a few casts and see does it appears to be overloading the rod or does the 4-weight line not make the rod bend very much, in which case, you would either go to a heavier or a lighter line. But I think you're safe on trying a few different lines. You know, don't try to cast 90 feet with them but, you know, cast 30 or 40 feet, which is the average fishing distance, and see how it feels.
Jake: Hey, Tom, this is Jake from North Carolina. I have a couple of questions for you. The first one has to do with tying your own leaders. I'm curious if using a blood knot or a double surgeon's knot is best for connecting the various sections together, or if there's a different knot that you might recommend to improve fly presentation as well as casting efficiency. I'm mostly using Maxima Ultragreen or Maxima Chameleon as well as Orvis tippet material to form the entire leader. So, would love to hear your thoughts on that. The second question I have has to do with practicing fly casting. I was out at a local park practicing in a grass field and a gentleman came up to me and kind of sparked up a conversation about fly fishing.
And toward the end of our conversation, he cautioned me about using my, you know, kind of go-to fly line for practicing out in the field. He said that using kind of newer fly line in grass could damage the coatings that are on floating fly lines. He said the blades of grass slowly eat away at it and that I should use an old, like, spool of fly line instead. I don't really keep around any old fly line, I get rid of it when I get a new line. So, I'm curious if I'm doing myself a disservice by practicing with the fly line that I also use out on the water and if there's something that you might recommend that I do differently to protect that fly line. Thanks for all that you do and thanks for answering my questions and tight lines.
Tom: Well, Jake, regarding your first question, nearly everyone, everyone I know that makes their own leaders uses blood knots. They're cleaner, they're thinner, and they're straighter when you get them tied up. Surgeon's knots can tend to offset one side of the line a little bit. They put a little kink in it and, you know, when you're done...and the tippet size, 4 or 5X, it really doesn't matter. But when you're in the heavier sections, I think it does matter. So, if you're tying your own leaders, at least do blood knots until you get down to about 2X. And then when you get beyond there, you can stick with a blood knot or you can use a surgeon's knot or any other knot that's used to connect two pieces of monofilament.
And in the real heavy stuff in the butt material, up around, you know, from 17 to 23 thousandths of an inch, you can use a three-turn blood knot, and then when you get down into the finer stuff, you probably want to go four and then five turns as you get closer to your tippet size. Regarding casting on grass, yeah, grass can...you know, casting on land can roughen up your fly line and, you know, with a lot of casting, remove the coating. I don't think it's going to hurt to occasionally cast on grass with a fly line. You know, try to find water if you can, try to find a pond or a pool or something where you can cast on water.
And, you know, if you do cast on grass, you might want to find a place with wet grass or if you're in your own yard, sprinkle some water on the grass. That will help prevent damage. It is probably a good idea to keep an old fly line around if you have one for casting practice. But then again, if it's an old line, it's not going to shoot as well as your new line but it's good for the basic casting. So, I don't think you're gonna hurt it occasionally but try to find your older line if you can for practicing on grass and never practice on asphalt or cement because that's gonna be really abrasive and hurt your fly line.
Here's an email from Eric from Boston. "I was wondering why more fly shops including online retailers don't offer more weighted flies with matte beadheads. I know in the past, you've mentioned that you think matte beadheads can sometimes outperform shiny ones in heavily pressured water. I was also wondering if I save money or at least break even in the long term by tying your own flies. As someone who chronically loses flies, being able to make my own flies on high-quality black barbless hooks sounds increasingly appealing. But as someone who is also chronically broke, the last thing I need is another expensive fly fishing-related rabbit hole to fall down. PS, can I use a mini Drunken and Disorderly on my 6-weight Clearwater, or is that pushing the limit of what bass flies I can use on it?"
So, Eric, first of all, there are some places that sell flies with black beads. Specifically Orvis, there's some patterns that I have on the Orvis website, patterns of my own design, that use black beads. So, you can look those up on the Orvis website. But, you know, there's some places where you can find them. But yeah, they're rare, most people sell beadheads with shiny beads but check out my patterns on the Orvis website. Regarding saving money by tying flies, I don't think you're going to save any money. Anybody who ties flies is going to tell you the same thing because it's an accumulative, if that's a word, pastime.
And you're always going to find a new material that you need or a new tool that you want to upgrade to. And, you know, if you use cheap tools and you hunt and use a lot of the materials from birds and animals that you harvest, you might save some money but I don't think you're gonna save any money by learning to tie your own flies. That's not the reason people tie flies. The reason people tie flies is because they love doing it and because there is a real special feeling when you catch fish on flies you tie yourself. But saving money? Yeah, I don't think so. And yes, you can use that mini Drunken and Disorderly on your 6-weight Clearwater. I would make sure you use a fairly short leader. In fact, probably with that fly, you want to use either a sink tip or sinking poly leader and a short like a 5-foot fairly stiff leader, 1X or 2X, and then you should be able to throw that fly on your 6-weight Clearwater.
Here's an email from Martin from Rochester, Minnesota. "My question today is about insect hatch identification. Here in southeastern Michigan, we're pretty fortunate to have a couple of streams and creeks that remain cold enough year-round to harbor browns and rainbows. There are volumes of research and resources on the various hatches in our northern Michigan rivers like the Ausable, but I can find very few if any resources that are more specific to my area. I've been able to correctly identify a couple of sulfur and olive hatches as they're happening. But often I'll come across the hatch and have no idea what specific types of mayflies or caddisflies they are. Can you recommend any books or resources that might help with insect identification, spawning conditions, or behavior? It's easy enough to observe and match the flies accordingly, but I'd like to build a broader understanding of my local watershed."
Well, Martin, that's great. And as you stated, you know that you can effectively fish a hatch without really knowing exactly what species of mayfly or caddisfly it is. But you want to go further and you want to be able to identify these things. I wouldn't be hesitant to use the resources from other parts of the Midwest to identify your mayflies, there is not going to be that much difference in the hatches on the Ausable with the streams down in your area. I mean, mayflies and caddisflies have wings, they get blown around, and they distribute. So, I think the books like, you know, "Selective Trout" by Swisher and Richards, which is one of the original insect identification books, is going to be very valid.
Now, that being said, you may not be able to find some of the insects that you see in any entomology book or any fishing book because there are lots of mayfly and caddisfly species out there that haven't even been identified yet. So, you know, it's great wanting to know exactly what they are. I don't think you need it for fishing and it may be difficult, if not impossible, to key out exactly what insects they are. You can probably get pretty close, you probably get to the genus level with some of those books on hatches, but you may not be able to get to the species level. And I don't think that matters.
Here's an email from Tobias from Germany. "When I was on a local creek lately, I saw a lot of fish rising and I identified some small rather whitish mayflies. So, I tied the proper imitation on my 6X tippet. Normally, no problem. But this time, I recognize that every time I tighten my knot, the tippet close to the fly began kind of coiling up a bit, which makes a perfect presentation impossible. I tried the clinch knot and the uni knot, both with the same result. Uni knot was a little less coiling. I moistened them plenty, I tried tightening them slowly and fast, slowly worked a little better, but the tippet was still coiling and bending. What did I do wrong? Is the tippet material strength? I use STROFT GTM. Since I live in Germany, it is more easily available than other brands. What not to use for fine tippets? Is it maybe the eye of the hook of the fly?"
Well, Tobias, I have periodically experienced that same coiling problem. And one day I realized what was happening. It happens a lot of times when I'm dragging the rest of my line in the water as I'm tying a fly and there's pressure on the tippet. And when I pull the tippet through the eye of the fly, it scores the tippet a little bit by scraping against the eye of the fly. So, what I found is you want to relieve all pressure on the tippet when you pass the tippet through the eye of the fly.
That's going to eliminate a lot of your coiling. Just make sure there's no tension on the rest of your leader when you tie it on. And, you know, some of the hooks you have might have a little burr in them although it's pretty rare in good fly-tied hooks these days. And some tippet material does coil a little bit more than others. But I think that by carefully threading the tippet through the eye and not putting any pressure on the tippet, I think you're going to find you're going to eliminate most of those coils.
Here's an email from Bob. "I have a few questions I would love to hear your thoughts on. I've been fly fishing at my local beaches in Southern California with my 8-weight over the last year. I'm looking to get a spay rod in an effort to increase my casting distance and enjoy learning what looks to be a fun technique. I'm wondering if there is a considerable difference in ease of casting distance between a lower-weight spay and a larger one. Ideally, I would like to get 6-weight in order to feel the small surf perch I typically catch but wouldn't mind going with a larger weight if it would lend itself to a considerably farther distance. When do you usually decide to take a two-handed rod out over a conventional rod?"
Tom: So, Bob, you know, the times I use two-handed rods are when I want a lot of distance and I'm not that concerned with accuracy because they're gonna throw a longer line for sure. Whether you use an overhand technique or a two-handed technique, they're gonna throw a longer line because of the length. But don't forget that mass is the most important thing in a line for getting distance. You need to overcome air resistance when you're shooting that line out there. And a line with more mass is going to more easily overcome the air resistance, particularly if you got a wind.
So, yeah, a heavier line, and you probably...you know, if you're looking really looking for distance, you want to make sure you go with a Skagit type line because you'll be able to shoot more line in there. They're thicker and they concentrate the mass. So, make sure you use a Skagit-type line. Sinking lines do help a little bit because a sinking line will cut through the air. It's dense, but yet it's thinner than a floating line. But yeah, you need mass to overcome air resistance and also friction from the guides. So, a bigger line is going to cast farther.
Here's an email from TJ. "First off, I really love the podcast and what you do to spread awareness to the community, but I would suggest a trend away from lead. My wife Sarah and I used to work at a Raptor Rehabilitation Center and one of the main illnesses in our eagles and ospreys was lead poisoning from eating a fish that had lead from fishing gear in them. I've always found the lead-free, non-toxic materials equally effective and more environmentally friendly in my flies and would hope there's a trend toward that within our community. Again, thanks for what you do."
Well, TJ, yeah, there's been a trend for a long time away from lead and Orvis stopped selling any lead split shot and any flies weighted with lead way back in the 1990s when we realized that lead from fishing weights could poison things like loons and eagles and ospreys. So, it's been a long time since Orvis has used any lead products and I personally have not used them in a long, long time. You still see lead split shots in fly shops and that's too bad. I still see it in places and, you know, you're right, there are perfectly acceptable substitutes for lead, mainly tungsten and tin that can be used for split shot or can be used for weighting flies. So, yeah, good to have a reminder out there for people who may not be aware of it, but you don't want to use lead fishing weights in any kind of fishing if you can possibly get away from it.
Here's an email from Steve in Michigan. "Hi, Tom, I have a couple of quick questions. I recently came across an article where the author recommends storing line off the reel. I've never done that. Aside from forming a large loose loop and draping it over a large-diameter dowel, how would you store a line off the reel? Fly line comes packaged on essentially large rubber, so I don't see how that's much different from storing the line on a reel. After a lifetime of fly fishing, what is your recommendation for storing fly line for extended periods?
I simply wash the line with soap and water at the end of the season, rinse with clean water, ensure it's completely dry, and store on a reel in a cool dry environment away from sunlight. Second question. In "The Orvis Guide to Leaders, Knots, and Tippets" book, the intermediate tippet sections in the knotted leader are usually six inches in length. I've seen in other sources where the intermediate sections can be up to 18 inches in length. What is the point of diminishing returns when it comes to the length of the intermediate sections on a knotted leader?"
So, Steve, first of all, yeah, you can store your fly line on a reel. It's going to have kinks at the beginning of the next season, but all you have to do is stretch that line either between your hands or just letting all the line off the reel and pulling on it until it stretches. It's not going to hurt them at all. You know, in the old, old days, maybe it was an older book that you saw, where people reusing silk lines which could rot, they did store lines off the reels. But, you know, I've never taken a line off a reel to store it, I keep them on my reels for years and years and years. So, modern synthetic lines, you don't need to worry about storing the line off the reel. That's absolutely untrue that you need to do that.
Regarding the intermediate sections, those six-inch lengths are the ones that were determined to cast a leader the best, but that's to get a leader that straightens out, you know? And there are often times when you don't want your entire leader to straighten out especially out toward the tippet to get some drag reduction. So, I think it's worth experimenting with longer intermediate sections. When I tie my own leaders, I typically make them longer than 6 inches, I make them like 10 or 12 in my intermediate section. So, 18 inches, you're maybe going to have a leader that's not going to straighten completely as well as one with a shorter intermediate section.
So, it depends on what you're trying to do. If you're trying to do kind of a George Harvey-style leader where the leader lands and loose coils, then yeah, tie some longer intermediate sections and see how it works. I think there's a lot of experimentation actually still to be done with leader tapers. And those Orvis leader tapers work really well and, you know, they've been proven over the years, but I think there's room for experimentation. So, go ahead and try some different stuff, different lengths.
John: Hey, Tom, this is John calling from Boston. I've got a question. I have fished trout up and down the East Coast, living mostly in the Northeast, but I have a question about fishing dry flies. A lot of times, I'm fishing smaller creeks and streams for brook trout, but also fishing in central New York. I'm wondering, when you're casting, you've often got the question of, "Do I fish upstream? Or should I fish downstream?" And I guess the most important things are presentation and not spooking or lining the fish that come into play. But I was wondering, is there also a consideration for the orientation of the actual fly, the bug, in terms of which direction the head and the tail are facing, upstream or downstream?
And I'm wondering...I guess I've observed caddisflies kind of taking off and they always appear to be bouncing or taking off facing upstream, or most of the time. But I've had flies spinning around and trout just seem to hit them no matter which direction they're facing. So, I'm wondering, in your experience and your observation, if there's certain types of flies or insects that will skate or move or face upstream versus downstream, or if you think it doesn't matter at all, if it's just presentation, getting a dead drift? Yeah, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Thanks a lot.
Tom: Well, John, that's a question that people have been asking for a long time and I'm not sure...I personally don't think that it matters because we don't even know if the fish sees the head of our fly as the head of the natural fly. You know, we're a little arrogant in our thinking that we've perfectly imitated a fly but it's an impressionistic imitation, and who knows how the fish sees it? Also, flies do spin around and orient differently when they're floating down. So, they may be facing one way or the other way or sideways when they're hatching, especially if it's windy. So, I honestly don't think there's a difference and I wouldn't worry about your fly orientation.
There is a theory and it's probably a good one that if you can, you should try to show the fish the fly before the tippet. That part of the orientation may be important. Now, when you're fishing straight upstream, it's nearly impossible to do that. But, you know, if you're fishing across stream or upstream from arising fish, then, you know, you can use a curve cast or a reach cast to try to show the fish the fly before the tippet. That may be a more important part of orientation than whether the head is facing upstream or downstream. And again, I don't think it matters, I don't think you should worry about it. Okay, that is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Doug Lyons about the secrets of the Battenkill.
My guest today is Doug Lyons. Doug is an old friend and Doug is probably the most dedicated Battenkill angler that I know. Doug is just devoted to this river and has for many years been devoted to it both fishing and in the conservation realm. And Doug is on the board of the Battenkill Watershed Alliance and really gives back to the resource. But Doug, you have a new book out which is probably going to upset some people, some local people.
It's called "The Fly Fishing Guide to the Battenkill," and it's just superb. It's a little bit too good because it gives away a lot of the secrets of the Battenkill. And a lot of people ask...they're always asking me about the Battenkill because it's one of my home rivers. And so, I wanted to get you on the podcast to talk kind of about the return of the Battenkill and what the river is really like. Why it's so difficult? You know, what kind of fish are in there? What should you expect? So, Doug, welcome to the podcast by the way.
Doug: Thanks for having me, Tom.
Tom: And we're actually sitting together in the podcast instead of doing a phone interview, which is nice. Doug came over to the house to do this, which is always nice. So, let's talk about the river itself and its character, Doug, first of all.
Doug: Sure, let me first address the...I knew when I wrote the book that a few people might not be too happy. But I do want to say that the secrets that I give away really aren't deep, dark secrets, and there's plenty to learn for those that want to explore further than what I have to say in the book. So there's plenty to still learn. And so, you know, if there's a secret spot to get into that's not generally known, it's not given away. I don't want to get run off the river by some of my friends.
Tom: Well, the great thing about the Battenkill is access is pretty much unlimited, particularly in Vermont. Vermont has a very liberal trespass law, riparian law, and, you know, you can fish the Battenkill anywhere you want.
Doug: Very true.
Tom: And the cool thing about it is that throughout Vermont, it's all good wild trout water from the very headwaters down to New York State line and beyond, well beyond into New York State.
Doug: Very true.
Tom: So, there's no secrets and you can access it anywhere. And, you know, people always ask me, "What spot is better?" And of course, it depends, right? It always depends.
Doug: Yes. Well, I think we all have our migration patterns up and down the river over the course of the season, depending on what's hatching. And so, you may be up on the upper river early in the season, way down low a little later in the season. And so, I know I have my movements and I'm sure other anglers have their own patterns that they follow.
Tom: My patterns are generally to get away from people. So, regardless of the hatches, I'm gonna go where I'm not gonna see anybody and that's pretty easy on the Battenkill.
Doug: That's true.
Tom: Okay, so let's talk about the river and why it's so special.
Doug: Well, I think, you know, it's special...you know, if I had put another subtitle to the book, it might have been, "In defense of Freestone streams." Because in the current environment, tailwaters are really where it's happening for a lot of anglers, which is a wonderful thing. But we also have our Freestone that aren't as super-rich, don't have the super heavy hatches, but they offer something that to an old timer like me, I think still talks to the great traditions of fly fishing.
And, you know, in the Battenkill, what's unique is that it has a wonderful population of brook trout, which is, you know, outside of Maine or maybe a few places up in northern Vermont and New Hampshire, you don't see a lot of that down this way and certainly further south, unless you're talking about small headwater streams. So, you know, so that, I think, makes the Battenkill a little bit different. And again, the fact that they're all wild fish up through Vermont and well down into New York and, you know, I think there's opportunities to even reduce the amount of stocking in New York one day, hopefully.
Tom: Yeah, I mean, New York does have sort of limited stocking, but there was a recent study, I think you sent it to me, where they...well, what was that? Where they electroshocked and found even where they stock, a majority of wild fish, right?
Doug: Yeah, last year, they shocked the Battenkill for the first time in about 10 years in New York and the furthest section that we did was what's called Poops Bridge and that's heavily stocked. And when we did the shocking, they came up with the grand total of two stocked fish and the rest were wild young-of-the-year and one and two-year-old trout.
Tom: That's amazing.
Doug: Yeah. And, you know, if you take away those stocked fish, I suspect that you'd see more wild trout.
Tom: Probably, yeah. Yep. Okay, so what makes it...I mean, the Battenkill, Freestone, it has brook trout. But what else makes it different, makes it unique?
Doug: Well, you know, to me, it's a very personal river. You know, you get out on that river on a beautiful evening in June and you can really absorb yourself into just fishing over a handful of trout that are rising and really work those fish, and it's just a very personal experience. I think for me, that's how I look at it. And, you know, it's not about a ton of fish all the time or most of the time even, but it's really...and, you know, there's so much going on in the fish while you're out there.
You know, you've got birds, you've got bats. Ospreys, eagles are flying by on a routine basis now. Much to our chagrin, we'll see mergansers, but it's a very vibrant habitat. The whole watershed is alive with, you know, different sorts of animals and beautiful flora. You know? So, it's more than just the fishing. And I think that most people when they really start to understand the stream a little bit deeper than just like a quick travel trip, they start to see those things and I think that's what's special about the Battenkill for me.
Tom: Yeah, it's not a wilderness river, it runs through an agricultural...sort of agriculture valley that really doesn't look much different than it did 40, 50, 60 years ago, covered bridges and kind of a pastoral scene. So, it's a pleasant place to fish.
Doug: Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's very New England, that's for sure. New England in the best ways, you know, the people are very friendly and, you know, it's an enjoyable experience.
Tom: So, what makes...the Battenkill fish are known to be difficult, and in your opinion, why are these fish so difficult to catch?
Doug: I would say, I think the Battenkill fish are difficult to catch, number one, because they are on high alert for predators. You know, when we first started fishing the river, Tom, you didn't have mergansers, you didn't have eagles, you didn't have osprey flying overhead all the time.
Tom: Yeah.
Doug: And I think back then you saw a lot more, you know, fish feeding on the top and they were a little bit more willing and I don't think it's as difficult as they are now. I think now they're really...you know, they know that if they expose themselves for too long, they could get in trouble. And the other thing that I think makes it difficult is the angler themselves. And I don't mean that in a critical way, but I think we as anglers have to ask, you know, what sort of skills do we bring to the table.
And I think this is probably true on any wild trout stream is the number one issue I see with anglers is their wading skills, to be honest. People tend to really get in there and move about with a little bit less consideration than they should. You really got to take your time. And I think my friend, Brew Moscarello, said it best when he said, "The fish on this river can't be rushed." And that's absolutely true.
Tom: And by the way, Brew is an Orvis-endorsed guide on the Battenkill and he's a terrific guide. So, if you're interested in a guide on the Battenkill, Brew is the guy to get in touch with.
Doug: I would not disagree.
Tom: So, I have a similar view of the Battenkill that it's difficult because the fish are spooky. You know, sometimes it's one cast and you're done. We've all been there. But the other thing I think that makes the Battenkill difficult is that it's relatively smooth flow. It's quick but smooth, and I think that really introduces a lot of drag in your presentations unless you're extremely careful using reach casts and slackline casts and a light leader with a fine tippet because it's very easy to get dragged on this river.
Doug: Absolutely. And one other thing, I tend to fish down and across. That's one of my favorite methods. If you're fishing upstream into a rising fish, which sometimes you have to do, you're gonna get a very short drift just because those currents do push. And like you said, they're a little quicker than it appear when you're standing on the bank. When you get in the water...I think your old friend, Dick Finley, once said that the river has a lot more push than you realize.
Tom: Yeah, yeah, it sure does.
Doug: Yeah. And that's, I think, one of the things. Plus, there's not a lot of obstructions in the river, especially in the pools and the runs. It's not like the West Branch Ausable or even the Beaverkill or, you know, rivers like that that have plenty of rocks and very well-defined holding areas. A lot of the holding areas on the Battenkill I think are fairly ill-defined. If you wait around after a fish has been feeding, you might find a slight depression here or there and that's why they're setting up where they are. But, you know, they may be rising somewhere that doesn't necessarily make sense on the surface, you know, so you really have to watch.
Tom: And the Battenkill has changed over the years. When I first started fishing it, I think it was 1974 or 1975, it was full of, I would say, 6 to 11-inch fish, and you could catch 25 during a Hendrickson hatch. There were a lot of fish. And then, yeah, I think it was the early 90s, mid-90s, all of a sudden, started not seeing as many small fish and it got worse and worse until it got to the point where you could only find a large fish and you had to do a lot of...by large, I mean 16 inches or better. And you had to do a lot of walking and looking and wading to find any fish at all, and it was usually a bigger one. And let's talk about what happened then, what do you think happened?
Doug: Well, I think, you know, we look into, you know, say post-1995 I think is a good time to delineate when we started to see a downturn in the river. And I think you've made some observations, as have others, that, you know, we went through...in the late '90s when we went through a fairly severe flood/drought cycle, that had an impact. But the other impact really was at the same...two things were happening. Number one, you were seeing a return of mergansers, I think that that's...you know, I think that had an impact. And combined with that was a reduction in the amount of large woody material in the river.
You know, there just wasn't that large wood where fish can set up and hold when they're not feeding or they can scurry off to if they feel challenged by a predator. So, I think that, you know, the reduction in large wood, I think some of it is washed out due to these floods, some of it was unfortunately taken out. I think that that had an impact to really challenge the ability for trout to start to, you know, fill in those size classes as they were growing out of the young-of-the-year because it was often healthy young-of-the-year and then they just weren't filling that.
And that kind of brings us to, you know, the State of Vermont when they said, "All right, we're gonna study the river," and they started doing that in 2000, made the river no-kill. And, you know, after three years of literally measuring every pool and riffle, they came up to the conclusion that, indeed, there's just not enough wood in the river. So, you know, the state found a volunteer in Bill Lesko, Dr. Bill Lesko, who has since passed, but he offered up his half mile of riverfront to basically become a living laboratory. And, you know, when I say we, that's Watershed Alliance along with Orvis who funded a lot of this, and the state came together and put in a whole bunch of woody material and did due diligence in terms of annual electroshockings to confirm that these things were working.
And lo and behold, brown trout in particular, really love wood. And it seems, you know, pretty obvious now, but I think that at the time, it wasn't so clear to people and, you know, it was well established that that was a big issue. And so, what's going on in the long term is there's been a large educational effort by the Watershed Alliance in particular and the state of Vermont where they have their posters to let people know that large wood is part of the natural landscape and it's very, very important not just for trout, but just for how rivers function as a whole.
Which, to me, I think one of the most important things in educating the average person is to not so much talk about trout, but the environment at large. You know, there's a lot of people that don't care about trout, but, you know, they don't want their riverbanks collapsing because they've invested a lot of money in that property. They don't want to see their riverbanks collapsing whenever there's a flood. So, we educate to plant trees, allow that woody debris to collect, it'll protect your bank, you know, and the byproduct of that for we anglers is we have more fish.
Tom: Yeah, and we also now have a Home Rivers Initiative through Trout Unlimited with a wonderful guy named Jacob Fetterman, who is dedicated to the Battenkill and its tributaries and he's been doing some great work.
Doug: Yeah, and one of the things...and this was certainly a learning process for me is that you really have to address watershed...you know, address issues at the watershed level. You know, you can look at a pool and say, "Well, it's deficient in this and that." Well, the problems for why it's deficient may be happening 15 miles upstream, maybe happening in one of the tributaries. And so, you know, the Home Rivers Initiative has really gotten right into the tributaries, they're adding large wood in tributaries, they are doing what they call beaver dam analogs to mimic beaver dams to get...so when the water flows out into the floodplain, it gets down into the ground, and you get better groundwater contributions into the stream. So, they're doing a lot of really neat stuff, not only in the main stem but in the tributaries, which is really in the long term vital.
Tom: Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
Doug: And Watershed Alliance, we were heavily involved with the early habitat work. We've migrated a little bit away from that, thanks to Home Rivers Initiative, but we're really emphasizing tree planting. So, if any folks, you know, in the valley that are hearing this and are interested in planting on their trees, by all means, contact the Battenkill Watershed Alliance and we'll get out there and put trees on your property.
Tom: Yep, and native trees as well.
Doug: Native trees, yep.
Tom: You know, we should give a shout-out to the U.S. Forest Service too.
Doug: Absolutely, that's remiss to not mention them. They've done a wonderful job.
Tom: They have been a great partner, and they have a...I don't know if he's a stream engineer or...
Doug: Scott Wixom.
Tom: Scott Wixom. I don't know what his title is, but this guy is a genius at putting in structures and designing structures that not only hold through floods like Hurricane Irene, I don't think we lost a single structure in Hurricane Irene. But a few weeks after the structures are put in, you can't tell that they're not natural. You know, I mean, you can put structures in a river that...you know, put dams and stuff like that in a river or put deflectors in a river and they look artificial. The stuff that he designs is just beautiful. I mean, it's gorgeous. The guy is a genius.
Doug: Yeah, he really...and he's got to be the most self-effacing person I've ever met. He's very, very humble, but the nicest person in the world, and does an amazing job. And, you know, when you mentioned that, I think it's important that we remember that some of our public servants do a really good job and we don't always see that and we don't want to forget that. I mean, Ken Cox, who retired really set the bar by maintaining a wild trout fishery on the Battenkill.
Tom: Right, Ken Cox was the state biologist for the Battenkill.
Doug: Right, and now Courtney Cox...Courtney Cox? Excuse me, Courtney Buckley, Courtney, she's taken up where Ken has left off. She's a very inquisitive young lady and working closely with Jacob to, you know, identify where large wood would be a good place...where we should put large wood in some of these tributaries and she's doing a terrific job too. So, we don't want to forget, you know, our public servants that really do a nice job and we don't always see it.
Tom: Yeah, the Battenkill is getting a lot of attention which it truly deserves. Now, let's talk about the fishing. So, in the old days, back when there were lots of little fish, it was rare to catch...on a fly, it was rare to catch a fish over, say, 14 inches long. I'm talking about brown trout. You know, brook trout, you'd catch up to a foot, but brown trout grow much bigger. And very large fish were often caught on Rapalas and stuff like that or bait when people did a lot of bait fishing in the river. But there weren't that many big fish. Since the no-kill and, you know, improvement structures on the river, it is not uncommon for people that know the river to catch a fish well over 20 inches long on a dry fly or on a streamer when the water goes up. We never saw those kind of, you know, giant brown trout in the Battenkill before.
Doug: That's absolutely true. It's really interesting you mentioned that because Ken, he gave me a lot of his data, you know, that I was able to put in the book and I was able to share in the book. Up until the no-kill came in, he had been shocking the river for about 15 years. A grand total of one fish over 18 inches came to his shocker during that period, and that's one fish over 18 inches in all that time. Now, you go and shock the river, they do two different sections, and you'll always get half a dozen at least fish over 20 inches across the several different habitat units that the state shocks.
And, you know, they're there and they're there in every pool. And, you know, Hendrickson time is a very exciting time to find them for sure and you can see a lot of a lot of fellows are out hunting. You know, you've mentioned that in some of your writings, you know, it's about, you know, you go hunting for these big fish and it's a lot of fun. And that gets back to the whole when I talked about how it's a very personal experience on the Battenkill. You know, it's a real one-on-one thing at times and it's pretty neat.
Tom: Why did the fish get so big on the Battenkill do you think? Because it doesn't appear to be a very rich river.
Doug: Well, it's not a terribly rich river in terms of bugs. Although I would...I've had this discussion with people since the very moment I stepped my toes in the river. You know, the hatches have never been good in the 45 years that I've fished the river. And one of the things...
Tom: Except the Hendrickson hatch.
Doug: Except the Hendricks and Tricos. That's what people have always said. But then if you dig back deeper, even Lee Wulff when he was living on the river pre-World War Two, his writings talk about how the river didn't have a lot of bugs. And so, I think it's one of those situations where some years you have terrific bugs and a lot of years you'll get the Hendrickson, the Tricos, which are a very consistent hatch, some blue and olives. You know, there's enough there to bring fish up but it's not, you know, super rich like the Delaware, let's be honest. Unless I'm on the Delaware, then there's nothing hatching.
Tom: So, why do these fish get so big?
Doug: Because when they do the shocking, you'll know very quickly why. Because for every trout that they turn over, they're turning over four or five sculpins, cutlip minnows, various different shiners, numerous different types of bait fishery in that river.
Tom: And crayfish.
Doug: And crayfish. And crayfish, indeed. So, there is plenty of calories in the Battenkill. And we as fly anglers, and particularly dry fly anglers, are really handicapping ourselves in terms of, you know, accessing those large fish. You know, we had a lot of rain last night, the rivers up and dirty. There are fellows out today that probably called in sick to go streamer fishing and they're going to be in the office tomorrow talking about that 20, 25-inch fish that they caught today.
Tom: Yeah, they are there. If you come to the Battenkill and you spend a day there, don't expect to see one of these fish but, you know, it takes dedication, and again, it takes hunting for these...you have to know where they live.
Doug: The other thing, I've been playing around with mouse fishing as well in the last couple of years and that's...you know, if you're careful about where you select...you know, I wouldn't recommend wading around in places you don't know. But I've got a couple of holes that I'm very comfortable wading around after dark and that can be interesting. It can be fun.
Tom: Yeah, I bet it can.
Doug: You'd be amazed how smaller fish will strike...how small fish are that assault a mouse, but also big ones. I've caught seven-inch fish on a mouse pattern.
Tom: Oh, my God. Wow.
Doug: I'm not happy about that.
Tom: Yeah, yeah. Wow. That's amazing. Well, brown trout like to eat the big stuff, that's for sure.
Doug: They do. So, yeah, I mean, the calories are there. I think if you were really...if that was your desire was to catch big fish, you'd be perfecting your streamer techniques.
Tom: Yeah, catching them on a dry fly after the Hendrickson hatch, after the Hendrickson spinner fall is pretty much non-existent, right? Those big fish.
Doug: You know, if you're careful and point them at this, the Yellow Drakes, you'll see them, you'll see some big noses up on those. Believe it or not, Mike Valla, who you know, he was playing with a large fish that was rising to Tricos every day for two weeks last year. He said it was a 20-inch plus fish.
Tom: That's unusual.
Doug: It's very rare. But he did see it and he had a great time trying to catch it and he never did.
Tom: Of course, flying ants, you can't predict them but when there was...I know there was an ant fall last week and I unfortunately was out of town and I missed it. We don't get that many flying ants falls but when we do, it brings up nearly every fish in that river.
Doug: It really is an incredible thing. And actually, with the rain that we had last night, we may see falls in the next couple of days.
Tom: Yeah, it's usually a couple of days after a rain, right, that you have these migrating adults and swing dance. And for some reason, they're attracted to water.
Doug: Yeah, I don't know why that is, but I'll give one little hint. If you're driving along 313, be aware. Keep your eye on a humid day this time of year, especially after a rain. Keep an eye on those hay fields because that's where you'll see them. I've seen funnel clouds of these things coming out of these hay fields.
Tom: Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Yeah.
Doug: It's pretty neat.
Tom: And if they start splatting on your windshield, stop and fish.
Doug: Yep.
Tom: Cancel everything else and...at any river. I mean, I was just out on the Madison and Henry's Fork and, you know, flying ants trump every other insect. If fish are feeding on an aquatic insect and you get a flying ant fall, forget it. They're done, they're done with the aquatic insects. They just love them.
Doug: Yeah, I don't know what it is, but they sure do.
Tom: It must taste good.
Doug: The other little tip I would give is if you're fishing Tricos this time of year, look for a size 24 flying ant. They will look a little bit like a Trico on the water from a distance but they've got a slightly...you know, they have a different body shape and fish will key in on those and they're usually...up in the Sunderland area in the mornings, you'll see them and they'll stop eating Tricos and they'll start eating those.
Tom: But you can probably get away with a Trico.
Doug: I've tried, I've tried.
Tom: Really? It doesn't work?
Doug: You've got to cut the tail off. But you remember, these things are small and they've got two little black...you know, their segments on their body as opposed to the bit larger segment on a Trico, and their wing attitude is a little bit different.
Tom: I've got some double Tricos, I bet they'd work for ant. Just cut the tails up.
Doug: Just so you know, that is a thing that there is flying ants in the mornings, little tiny ones, and I do tie patterns for those specifically for them. You know, they do look just enough different. Remember, they see those Tricos every day. So, if they see something different, they're gonna notice it.
Tom: Yeah. Let's take people through a season on the Battenkill, Doug, and talk about, you know, when to come.
Doug: Sure. So, if you have a New York license, March is a nice time to actually get started. That's open all year round and fish will get active. Streamers, Blackstone flies, so that's something that a lot of people don't do but it's definitely worth checking out. If you're chasing bugs, the first big hatch, of course, is the Hendrickson. Prior to the Hendrickson, you're looking at streamer fishing. I hate to be pinned down for when the Hendrickson hatch these days, unfortunately, because the hatch guides are kind of tossed out the window. But let's say sometime after April 20th and before May 10th is generally Hendrickson time. I think you might agree with that.
Tom: Yeah, I would say that.
Doug: And hatch that happens concurrent with the Hendrickson, there's two hatches. One is the Blue Quills, little Paraleps. Fish will eat the little Blue Quills even when the Hendrickson are hatching in larger numbers. And also, they'll get on Blue Quill spinners, so be ready for that, the famous masking hatch that they talked about. And then the other hatch that a lot of people don't...it's a shorter-lived but it happens towards the end of the Hendrickson is a Grannom hatch. That's a Grannom caddis. And they'll come off usually on sunny days in the mornings and fish will get on those. So, a lot of guys are either sleeping in or relaxing waiting for that 2:00 or 3:00 Hendrickson hatch. Well, there could be a caddis hatch going on with fish moving to them.
Tom: Yeah, and the nymph fishing prior to that Grannom hatch earlier in the morning can be very good, very productive.
Doug: Yes, agreed. So, the Hendrickson, I think a lot of people like myself, we really look for the spinner fall because the spinner fall really concentrates a lot of bugs. They happened towards the evening and those big fish feel very comfortable coming up in the tails of those pools and any other logical place you might look for them. The one thing about the Hendrickson is it flows. They can hatch when the river is at 1500 CFS and you're not going to get a fish. And we saw that this year, this past year. So, you can have years where your Hendricksons are hatching and the flows just don't cooperate.
Tom: What's a good flow for Battenkill for wade fishing?
Doug: I'm comfortable at 600 to 800, and in a few places, over that. But I think that, really, 600 to 800 is really where you want to start looking. And even at 800, you gotta be careful. You know, I was talking to somebody the other day that guides and he said he's not even sure to go out over 600 CFS.
Tom: Oh, interesting.
Doug: Yeah, which is kind of interesting. And so, 600 is a good number. If you know the river, you can get away with 800. A thousand, you want to be in a boat. You know, I do mention boats in the book and you said that I may tick a few people off. You know, I think there's a time and a place for the drift boats on the Battenkill, but the peak of the Hendrickson hatch when it's wadeable water isn't really that time.
Tom: I agree, I agree.
Doug: And I don't mean to be snarky but...
Tom: And I have floated the Battenkill a few times fishing streamers but it's always been during water when I knew I wouldn't see a wading.
Doug: Or if you want to fish that way, go down into New York, there's a ton of water down in New York along Route 29 and there's a takeout at Center Falls Bridge. Miles of water that's much bigger than the lower river has huge trout down there, not as many, and really good hatches of Hendrickson and a few other bugs you don't see upriver, things like Brown Drakes. So, that's the other thing is, you know, think about, you know, exploring some of the lower water in the boats because you'll see no anglers and you might get into a really big fish and you'll learn a lot more. It's neat stuff.
Anyhow, let's go back to the season. So, after the Hendricksons, you'll see some March Browns and, you know, they will get on not so much the duns but you'll see some good spinner falls occasionally. Sulphurs are obviously a good thing in June, I enjoy those. There is something called the Baetisca that we've talked about. That's kind of mercurial fly that is found on the river. It's a kind of funky-looking bug and I talked about that. And that's fairly well distributed. I found it down into New York all the way up into the headwaters. But they're just peculiar, I wouldn't count on them, but if you see this odd-looking bug that kind of looks like half its body has been cut off, that's a Baetisca and the fish may well key in on those.
Tom: And it's a mayfly.
Doug: It's a mayfly.
Tom: It's a mayfly but it almost doesn't look like a mayfly.
Doug: Yeah, it's weird.
Tom: Yeah, a weird-looking bug.
Doug: And then, Sulphurs are great during June, a lot of caddis at that time as well. A popular way to fish the Battenkill that I learned years ago is to skate a caddis. So, you use something like a Vermont caddis clipped on the bottom, I like to clip the hackle on the bottom because it gives it a little bit more ability to skate a little bit better. That's a great way to fish, you know, all day in the riffles. You won't get big fish that way but you will move fish.
And, you know, you'll miss fish because they just slash at it but you'll catch some too and it's a lot of fun. So, that's something that I would recommend. So, again, the Sulphurs can be very good. And you'll get a couple of bigger drakey-type flies towards the end of June into July. Those are the Potamanthus and the Ephemera varias, the cream drakes, I think, would be the common name for those. Those are about a size 12 or a 10, right towards dusk, and those are...you will occasionally see a big fish up on those.
Tom: Now, before we go any further, there's a hatch we have to mention.
Doug: Okay, what did I forget?
Tom: The inner tube hatch.
Doug: The inner tube hatch. Yeah.
Tom: The Battenkill is a beautiful, nice cold river. And on a hot day, you're going to see hundreds of inner tubes as you will in many trout streams these days. Inner tubes, kayaks, canoes. And so, you know, during the summer, you're really looking at fishing early in the morning, probably before 11:00 or right towards dark. Otherwise, you're just going to be frustrated.
Doug: I agree with that. So, there are ways to get around it. The inner tube hatch happens primarily between Arlington and the Eagleville Covered Bridge in New York. So, you can get away from it to a large extent by fishing above or below that. Or another thing to do is to explore some of the beautiful brook trout streams we have that flow into the Battenkill or, you know, coming out of the Green Mountains. Because, you know, if you think about it, you know, do we really need to be catching fish all day on the river in the middle of the summer if the water temperature is starting to get a little bit marginal anyhow?
And so, you know, I can assure you...you know, I remember the days before inner tubes where you could fish the Battenkill all day in the middle of July especially if the water was staying cold and little brookies and browns up all day. There is no question that we've lost that fishing. But by losing that fishing, you'd discover other things. And, you know, there's wonderful brook trout, mountain brook trout fishing, and there is more to the Battenkill than just the 11 miles between Arlington and the Eagleville Covered Bridge.
Tom: Yeah, I mean, even the headwaters of the Battenkill, you know, upstream of the town of Manchester, there's the east and west branches of the Battenkill, which are great for prospecting with a big dry fly. They're brushy and they're tight, but they can be quite productive.
Doug: They sure can, you know? So, again, you know, it's frustrating, but there are opportunities, and I think it forces you to learn a little bit more, which I think is never a bad thing. But yeah, there are times when I drive down to my camp and I just shut my eyes and pretend it's not happening. But, you know, these folks have a right to the river and we have to remember that. And would it be nice if they had to pay a day ticket or something like that and it went in towards some restoration and they are work put into the sites? I think that wouldn't be inappropriate but that's not on the table right now.
Tom: No, no, it is Vermont and Vermont is not exactly a state that's high on regulation.
Doug: No, no. I mean, some of that helps us as anglers and there are times when it is a bit of a hindrance. You know, as an angler, you know, we follow a lot of rules and the tubers unfortunately don't follow a lot of rules.
Tom: No, they don't have to follow all the rules.
Doug: But again, I just want to stress they have a right to be there and, you know, we just have to remember that.
Tom: Yep. All right, so let's go back to summer hatches.
Doug: Summer hatches. So, I am a...so in July, a hatch that a lot of folks don't fish and it's a kind of a pretty tube hatch is a little Blue-Winged Olive of about a size 16 or an 18. And you'll see those hatching in some of the flats up until about 10:00 or 11:00 in the morning, and then you see your first tube, you reel in, and go home. But it can be a fun hatch. And again, caddis or about, and then about the 20th of July or so, you'll start seeing Tricos, particularly Manchester down through Sunderland.
Tom: Yeah. Seldom I have seen them...I've seldom seen a really good Trico spinner fall below Arlington, so you're mainly talking about this slower, flatter, deeper water upstream.
Doug: Agreed. I used to fish them a lot on the scales. But really, you know, by the time they get on the water, usually the river is getting busy, and so I've kind of migrated upstream as a result. But the one thing you can do is if you're an early riser, you can fish a little size 22 all of dun to sporadically rising fish in the flats in Arlington like I do right down to the Spring Hall in New York, you'll see fish taking little Trico duns in the mornings.
Tom: Yeah, real early.
Doug: You won't see a lot, you won't see a lot of fish up, but you'll see a few and yeah, that's one of those wonderful times of the day that nobody else is around. And you might see a deer crossing the river, you might have an osprey fly overhead, and it's really just one of those...again, one of those personal moments that I love. So anyhow, the Tricos are really the bugs or mayflies from really, you know, in July right through August. You will start seeing some Blue-Winged Olives towards the end of August in the afternoons, little size 22s, fish will get on those.
And one thing that I love doing is fishing Isonychia nymph in the fast water, usually mid-August right into early September. Iso seemed to be getting more of a thing on the Battenkill these days. And so, that's something that I don't see a lot of people doing but fish those fast riffles with a really quartering downstream cast, stripping that bug really quickly, and hold on, you'll get a few nice fish that way. So, that's enjoyable. And again, you know, if the rivers are down low in the evenings after dark, I do play around with the mouse now and then. So, if you're adventurous, that's an option too.
And then come September, you'll start seeing some more caddis. You'll see kind of the summer Stenonema, I guess, would be...I don't want to get too much into Latin because I'll get it wrong. But little kind of sulphury to peachy orange-colored flies in about a size...anywhere from 16 to 20. Those are more spinner fall-type events than duns, but you'll see fish rising to those guys in the evenings starting mid to late August right into September. And then closing out the season, late September...you know, kind of mid-September right into the end of the year, which these days carries right into November down in New York, you'll get really nice Blue-Winged Olive hatches and that can be a lot of fun, they're all size 22s to 24s.
Tom: People should know that Vermont has a year-round trout season now on most rivers but the Battenkill does close last Saturday in October...or is it October 31st?
Doug: I think it's October 31st now.
Tom: Okay, so October 31st through this second Saturday in April, the Battenkill is closed in Vermont to fishing.
Doug: But it is open in New York. You know, this little Blue-Winged Olive hatch can be a lot of fun. Again, you know...and of course, if you so desire, you can also fish streamers that time of year. You will have migrating fish heading up the tributaries, you know? So, if you want to catch a big migrating fish, that's an opportunity too. Just please handle them carefully because you don't want eggs spilling out all over your hands and, you know, obviously we cherish those fish. So, I tend to fish just dries just because I don't want to...I'm such a great angler, I know how many I would catch, which is probably about nine. So, I'm not much of a risk to fish there. But with the Blue-Winged Olives, they're a lot of fun.
Tom: Yeah. And it should be said that nymph fishing, just general nymph fishing, you know, prospecting with nymphs can be productive. You want to generally stick to the faster riffles with those flies, they just don't seem to work that well in the slower water. I think the fish get too good a look at them or something.
Doug: I think that the Euro guys, I've met a few, they can do really well on some of the water on the Battenkill, there's no doubt about it. I'm not going to claim to be a skilled nymph fisherman to any high degree. I do fish a Yellow Stonefly nymph in June because those flies are active at that time of year and the bugs seem to be...the stoneflies seem to be moving around in the mornings, and I will catch fish on a Yellow Stonefly nymph in June, kind of forgot about that one. So, that's a good...and again, you're fishing in faster water but fish do kind of target those.
Tom: Yeah, yeah. And generally, any kind of caddis-y Euro-type nymph of the appropriate size depending on depth will work in the Battenkill. The fish are not very selective on subsurface feeding, at least to exact pattern.
Doug: Yep. You know, when you're fishing the hatches on the top, definitely one of those Rosenbauer "Here's your emergers" will do the business from time to time. So, I'll give a little shout-out to that fly, you know, that's definitely a good way to look for fish to catch fish. They're not always on the duns, quite often they're on the emergers. And, you know, that goes all the way down to the little Olives in the fall. I've often used a tiny little emerger to catch fish in the fall.
Tom: Yep. All right. What do we miss? What do we miss about the Battenkill? Oh, we should just say that the Battenkill has been, I think, getting better every year. And this year, of course, you've had good water all year, this year has been just a spectacular year all summer long on this river. And it's great to see, it's great to see the river coming back producing a lot of fish and producing some small and medium-sized fish which, you know, to you and me is nice to see because that means we got recruitment for future years.
Doug: We just shocked Camden Creek last week, which is a tributary that, actually, the Home Rivers Initiative did a major project on several years ago. And the average is 17 feet wide and about 3 feet deep at its deepest. So, it's a little tiny, a little creek. There's a ton of wood in there now, there's been a lot of wood recruitment over the last few years. And in three years, the adult population of trout went from roughly 60...we collected 68 fish in about 600 feet, to 130 adult-sized fish, so that's six inches to 11-12 inches in one shocking.
Tom: Wow.
Doug: And some of those fish are going to make their way right down into the Battenkill. And so, it shows you...you know, really, I think if I had to say one thing, we talked about the future of the Battenkill is we need to allow the river to do what it wants to do. That's the most important message. And that's for any river, is you really need to let them do what they want to do and they'll figure it out. And the fish for anglers are the byproduct that we get to benefit from and, you know, I can't emphasize so much, too much, how much we have to look at this on a landscape basis. It's not just the fish, it's not just that one pool, it's the whole darn thing.
Tom: Yep. And we need to help them along by really replacing the large woody debris that had been removed from the river.
Doug: So, when you mentioned that, there's gonna be a project this fall down in New York where they're going to be doing some wood placement downstream of the Eagleville Covered Bridge and that's an exciting project. And there's a landowner upstream that Jacob's in conversation with to do some work as well. So, that's kind of pending, you know? So, there's opportunities there. In Vermont, I think that we're seeing plenty of natural recruitment and I think we can...if we just let the river, you know, take that stuff and use it, we'll be fine, you know? I think it will really be in good shape. And the Hill Farm looks so much different today than when you fished it when you first started fishing the river. There's a ton of wood in there now.
Tom: Yeah, the Hill Farm used to be a pretty much grazed meadow and you had lots of back cast room. You can stand on the bank and, you know, cast 70 feet if you wanted to, back cast 70 feet. And now it's a jungle in there, which is healthy, you know, it's got a really good riparian zone now.
Doug: Beautiful area for brook trout. For people who love brook trout, you know, Sunderland is really...you know, Sunderland has a lot of brookies.
Tom: Yeah, there are a lot of spring...you know, people should know, the Battenkill has a lot of springs coming into it because of the marble bedrock that we have that forms crevices and groundwater pockets. And there's just tons of springs coming into the Battenkill, which keeps it relatively cold all summer.
Doug: Yep. And, you know, you don't see the pulling up of trout like you do on a river like the Housatonic or the Beaverkill, which is a good thing because then they get picked off by predators. So, you know, I would just end by saying, you know, don't come here expecting to get a dozen musclebound 20-inch trout, but come to have a very intimate experience and you'll enjoy it and I think hopefully, you'll come to love it. And if you happen to see me along the river, you'll probably have to listen to me for an hour afterwards and that's just a risk you take.
Tom: You won't have to listen to me because I'll be going the other way.
Doug: That's true. I don't think I've ever seen you on the river. Tom. I've seen you passing over but I don't think I've seen you on the river.
Tom: I mean, it's one of the largest rivers in the lower New England states where you can catch wild brook trout, which is rare. And know that in Vermont, all the fish that you catch are going to be wild, not stocked. And in New York state as well, they're mostly going to be wild fish.
Doug: That's absolutely true. You know, it's a nice old-school fishery and there's something to be said for rivers like the Battenkill in a world of beautiful tailwaters.
Tom: Yeah. Agreed, agreed, totally natural.
Doug: Yep.
Tom: All right, Doug. So, we have been talking to Doug Lyons, author of the new book, "Fly Fishing Guide to the Battenkill." It's published by Stackpole. You can find it in bookstores and online, and I think it's a really, really good book. I mean, I've been fishing that river longer than Doug and I still learned a ton by reading the book. So, yeah, some hatches that I never really noticed before and some spots and some techniques, so it's a great book, a great book, highly recommended.
Doug: Well, thank you so much.
Tom: All right, Doug. Well, thanks for coming over today, and maybe I'll see you on the river.
Doug: You might. Take care.
Tom: All right. Bye-bye.
Doug: Thank you.
Tom: Thanks for listening to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. in the body of an email or as a voice attachment. You can find more free fishing tips at howtoflyfish.orvis.com.