All About Crayfish and How to Fish Their Imitations, with Jake Villwock
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And this week, my guest is fishing guide Jake Villwock. Jake is an expert, especially in smallmouth bass, but also on trout and steelhead. And the topic this [00:00:30.059] week is crayfish.
And I think a lot of people realize how important crayfish are to the diet of many of the species that we chase with a fly rod, and they're quite well imitated by flies. But I don't think we know a lot about their behavior and their life cycle. And so Jake's gonna talk about crayfish in general and how they behave and what their life cycle is and also what the best ways for fishing [00:01:00.240] a crayfish imitation is. So, if you're a trout or a bass angler, I think this is gonna be an important and very interesting podcast for you.
I know that I learned a lot about crayfish in this podcast. I've known for a long time how important they were, but I didn't really know much about where they live and how they go about their life. So, I learned a lot, and I know you will too.
Before we start the Fly Box, [00:01:30.000] a couple announcements on trips. I am hosting a number of trips next year or this coming year and just wanted to let you know about a couple of them or three of them.
One is, I have a trip to Iceland in July. July 15th through 20th. And we're gonna be fishing the Blanda and two other rivers that I can't pronounce. So, maybe once I've been there, I'll be able to pronounce them. But we're gonna be fishing for Atlantic salmon, [00:02:00.709] sea-run browns, non-sea-run browns, and Arctic char, both landlocked and sea-run char. So, you know, what we catch there will depend on what's in the river at the time, but it's gonna be an exciting trip. And, of course, I understand that Iceland is one of the most spectacular places on the planet. So, there are a couple of spaces left on that one if you're interested.
And then, another trip we're gonna be taking in August [00:02:30.009] is August 22nd through 28th at Casa Clorinda in Mexico. And this is Enrico Puglisi's lodge. Those of you who are fly tiers, of course, know of Enrico Puglisi. He's a great guy. He's a lot of fun, and we're gonna be cohosting a trip.
So, I think there's probably gonna be some fly tying done at night, but the main attraction here is baby tarpon. And I don't think there's anything in salt water more fun than catching baby tarpon. [00:03:00.020] And they're quite abundant there, and I understand relatively easy to catch. And so it's a great trip, possibly for someone who doesn't have a lot of saltwater experience.
Now this is a really small lodge. There's only three rooms available to customers, and they're double occupancy. So, you know, if you're interested in this, you need to find either your spouse or a fishing buddy to go and share a room with. [00:03:30.259] It's gonna be a small, intimate gathering, and I am really looking forward to this one.
And then another one I'm looking forward to: going to Spain, going to the Pyrenees, September 28th to October 4th. We're gonna be located in a 10th-century medieval village, with spectacular, native brown trout fishing in the mountains. And also, as I understand, this is some of the finest [00:04:00.319] food and wine of any trip. There are side trips to wineries as well if you don't wanna fish every day, and there are, of course, lots of other sites to see in this spectacular area of the world. So, that's September 28th to October 4th. And I'll be cohosting that trip with my wife, Robin, who doesn't fish very much. So, she'll be interested in taking nonfishing angling partners on [00:04:30.680] expeditions during the day.
And then some other places to go. So, I wanna talk about... I wanna mention three Orvis-endorsed operations in case you're still planning a fishing trip for this year or maybe next year. The first one is Salmon Lodge in Canada. And this is an Atlantic salmon lodge. Atlantic salmon and brook trout lodge. And they fish the Grand Cascapedia and the [00:05:00.089] Petite Cascapedia and the Bonaventure. These are three of Quebec's finest Atlantic salmon rivers. And spectacular food, lodging. And if you ever wanted to catch an Atlantic salmon, this is a great place to go and not that far away. So, that's one to look into. They have 117 five-star reviews on the Orvis website. [00:05:30.100] So, you know that your fellow customers and anglers have enjoyed lots of good times at this lodge.
The second one I wanna mention this week is Montana Angler, and this is an expedition where you stay in canvas wall tents. And this is in the Bozeman, Montana area. Most of you, if you've been to Montana, are familiar with the Bozeman area. And you'll have the opportunity with Montana Angler [00:06:00.439] to fish spring creeks. They have some ranch waters with private access to streams and lakes that are hard to get to.
Now, Montana's waters are all public. The rivers are all public. But, you know, sometimes access is tough. You might have to walk in a long, long way to get to some of these waters. And they also fish famous rivers like the Yellowstone and the Madison and all the great rivers inside Yellowstone National Park. This one [00:06:30.194] on the website has 184 five-star reviews. So, again, lots of people have enjoyed this trip.
And finally, an Orvis-endorsed guide, independent guide, Scott Whitaker, from Maine. And if you have ever wanted to fish the Maine woods and have an authentic Maine fly fishing experience, Scott's the one to go to. He fishes the famous Rapid River in the Kennebec. He fishes wilderness [00:07:00.725] ponds. With Scott, you can wade, you can float in a raft drift boat, or you can take a canoe trip. And so if you ever wanted to fish in Maine, you've heard all about it and maybe read Thoreau's book on "The Maine Woods," this is a great way to see the Maine wilderness. And Scott has 38 five-star reviews on the Orvis website.
So, all three of these operations are ones [00:07:30.064] that we have vetted and we have visited, and we regularly check in with. So, you know that when you book with an Orvis-endorsed operation, you're gonna have a good time, and you're gonna be well taken care of. The fishing is gonna be great. The guides are gonna be great. They're gonna be safe and very knowledgeable.
So, anyway. And if you wanna look at other operations that are Orvis-endorsed. On the Orvis Adventure [00:08:00.305] page at orvis.com/adventures, you can see an interactive map there which will show you all the different locations where we have Orvis-endorsed operations.
Oh, one more announcement. Giant Fly Sale. Two more announcements, actually. The Giant Fly Sale is going on right now. And if you go to the Orvis website, you'll see that, and you can save a lot of money on flies. So, it's a great time of year to stock up on the flies that you're gonna need for the coming season, especially [00:08:30.074] if you're going to one of these trips that I talked about. And you may not have the appropriate flies for those trips, so you may wanna stock up on those.
If you're listening to this on Monday, tomorrow, the 4th of March at 3 p.m., we're gonna be doing one of our monthly tie-offs. I'm going to be tying against or with Cheech from Fly Fish Food and the great Tim Flagler and the great Cheech as well. [00:09:00.554] Two amazing fly tiers. Two of the best in the world. I usually lose the contest, but that's okay. It's fun tying with those guys. And we're gonna be tying Schroeder's Parachute Hozier Hopper. Or... No. Schroeder's Parachute Hopper.
And this is a great old pattern that is still a go-to pattern for a lot of guides when they have picky fish when there's grasshoppers around. It's a low-floating fly. It's all natural materials. [00:09:30.304] A little bit tricky to tie, but not bad. And so we'll see how the three of us do, and I'm sure we're all gonna tie that fly differently. So, if you downloaded this podcast right away on Monday, it'll be tomorrow. And then if you missed it, it'll be archived on the Orvis YouTube channel and Facebook page. So, you can always check them out later.
All right. The Fly Box. The Fly Box is where you ask questions [00:10:00.169] and I try to answer them. Or you have a comment, or you have a tip that you wanna pass along to fellow anglers. And you can send your question to
All right. So, now I'll try to answer some questions. The first one is from Pete from Toronto. "I recently rewatched your video series on bass fishing." This is on the Orvis Learning Center. "In a couple places, it was suggested that a bass angler have a number of rods with various line setups: floating, sinking, sink tip, etc. [00:11:00.529] Unfortunately, a new rod is not in my budget at this point in time.
I have a 9-foot 8-weight rod with a floating line that I use for bass fishing and to chase migratory rainbows in the spring and fall. The floating line doesn't seem to be a hindrance in the river that I bass fish in, especially if I use a polyleader. The problem is when I fish in a lake, I can't seem to get the fly down to where the fish are. Should I try a longer polyleader and more weight? If I put an intermediate line on my 8-weight, will my 9-foot-5-weight [00:11:30.110] be able to handle fishing for bass on the surface? Will it be able to throw those big plugs and poppers? Any other ideas are, of course, welcome."
Well, Pete, you're right. You know, when you fish a river for bass, whether it's smallmouth or largemouth, you generally don't need much other than a floating line. Sometimes early in the season, you might need a sink tip. But you'll be able to get away with it.
When you fish in a lake, you really sometimes need to get down deeper. And a floating line [00:12:00.389], it's gonna be tough to do. So, there's a couple of things you can do with that floating line. One is you can put a really long tippet on your polyleader and a weighted fly. That's gonna get you down a little bit better. And, you know, the tippet's the finest part. It's gonna sink fairly quickly, and with a weighted fly, you can get down, I don't know, maybe 10 feet with that. It's not gonna cast... If you put a really long tippet on there, let's say, [00:12:30.330] 5 or 6 feet, not gonna cast that well, but you will be able to get it down. But your idea of going with an intermediate or sink tip line on your 8-weight is a better idea. Again, with the intermediate line, you want a long leader. With the sink tip line, you don't need it as much. Just probably 5 feet of tippet right onto the sink tip line.
But, yeah, if you wanna use your 5-weight [00:13:00.120] for surface fishing for bass, you can do it. You're gonna have trouble pushing some of the bigger bass bugs, but I think sometimes people use bass bugs that are too big. And I think that, you know, if a bass is interested in eating on the surface, you can often get away with a smaller bass bug. So, you can do it. It's gonna be tough to push, you know, a big hair bug or something, but you can get away with it.
And then, [00:13:30.134] playing the fish. You know, if you're in open water with those big bass, yeah, you can land them with a 5-weight. Probably a little bit more effort, and you might have to put a little more pressure on it, but you can do it. The problem gets to be if you're fishing in the weeds. You know, you just sometimes can't pull a bass out of a heavy weed bed with a 5-weight. You just can't get enough...can't put enough pressure on the fish. But I would say try it out. I would say try it, and I think that, [00:14:00.784] you know, going with some sort of sinking arrangement with your 8-weight and sticking with smaller surface bugs on your 5-weight is a good way to go until you can find the resources to get some more lines and maybe a different rod.
And, you know, as I was saying this, I was thinking that one of the things you might be able to do, which won't cost you an awful lot, is to get an extra spool for that [00:14:30.455] 8-weight reel and put a sinking line on that extra spool, and then you can switch back and forth. It's not as good as having two rods ready at all times, but at least you'll be able to fish both surface and the fish that are deeper.
Ryan: Hi, Tom. My name is Ryan, and I have two questions for you that are unrelated. And so with that, I'll just jump right into the first. So, I grew up in Northern Michigan, and every year my buddies and I [00:15:00.134] make a trip to the Upper Peninsula to target steelhead in conjunction with opening day of trout season.
And so my question is, while the main thing that we are targeting are those steelhead that are running up, I've always wondered about the brook trout population in these rivers. And so the question is, what do these brook trout do when the steelhead are pushing up? Are they active? And any particular way that you would try to target them [00:15:30.355] if I was looking to take a break from the steelhead? The short of the long is, should I bring my 3-weight on this trip and try to target these fish, or are they dormant due to the steelhead pushing up?
The second question I have, I'm hoping you can shed some light on as a Vermont native, but my wife and I are planning to move to Vermont in the coming year to be closer to family. This is her home state. And so I was there for the holidays and was fishing [00:16:00.225] a river you're probably familiar with near Bristol, Vermont. And it was right after that time where there was a bunch of snow followed by a bunch of rain, and the river was high and moving quickly. And so I wanted to just get your take on a few different things.
So, you know, I've always heard that when the river is high, that means there's more food in the river, and so fish might be feeding actively. But in this case, it seemed like the river was just too high and moving too quickly. And in this sort of reoccurring [00:16:30.615] weather pattern, how do you target rivers during this time? Is it even worth it to target during this time? And how would you target fish? Where are they sitting? And any advice you have in this particular situation.
If it's not obvious by now, I did not catch any fish when targeting this particular river on this particular day. So, any and all insight is greatly appreciated. Thank you for all you do for the community of fly fishing. I learn so much from you on your videos and podcast [00:17:00.524] every time I interact with them, so big heartfelt thank you. Looking forward to hearing your responses.
Tom: So, Ryan, I'm not sure exactly what happens to a brook trout population when steelhead enter the river. I've never fished a steelhead river where there were native brook trout. I've fished steelhead rivers where there were browns and rainbows and was able to catch the browns and non-migratory rainbows just fine.
I suspect [00:17:30.289] that, yes, the fish will still be feeding. I don't think it'll put them off. The brook trout are probably at that time of year, opening part of the season, are probably gonna be in deeper, slower water, and the steelhead are gonna tend to be more in the main current or very close to the main current. So, I think you can target the brook trout.
And, you know, if the steelhead are dropping eggs, this is in the spring, so chances are [00:18:00.069] they're gonna be dropping eggs and spawning. And I would say that an egg fly would catch those brook trout because chances are they're gonna be feeding on those eggs that the steelhead are gonna be dropping. So, either an egg fly or a nymph. You know, a lot of times, steelhead and brook trout in the spring will take nymphs as well as egg flies.
I would probably, I wouldn't say leave your 3-weight at home, but it's probably [00:18:30.329] not gonna be much use for you because you're probably gonna be fishing bigger flies, bigger nymphs, heavier water, and I'm not sure the 3-weight will be a lot of help. But you should be able to catch those brook trout on the outfit that you're using for steelhead. May not bend the rod as much as a big steelhead, but, you know, you can still target them. And probably by fishing egg flies, you may have an opportunity of catching both steelhead [00:19:00.180] and brook trout in the same area.
So, regarding your question on fishing in cold, high water, don't forget that all fish are cold-blooded, and they're gonna be regulated by the water temperature. And in cold water temperatures, they're not gonna feed very much. As the water gets to 45 to 50 degrees up till 65 or 68, they're gonna be feeding pretty aggressively.
So, you know, when you were fishing that river, [00:19:30.029] the water was snowmelt. It was probably, you know, in the 30s. And high cold water is generally pretty unproductive. Now, you've heard that fish feed heavily sometimes in rising water and high water, but that's when the water temperature is higher. That's when you get, you know, a midseason or a spring or summer rainstorm, and the water temperature is at a decent [00:20:00.140] level, and the fish are still gonna feed aggressively. So, trying to find those fish that aren't feeding very much in cold, high water is really, really difficult. So, I would not feel bad about not doing anything on those fish. That's a really, really tough situation.
All right. Another email from Ben from Massachusetts. "First, I would like to say the typical but true thank you for everything you do [00:20:30.059] for all of us to enjoy fly fishing to what it has become today. I'm writing because today I lost my dog. She was my best friend of 14 years, and in her younger days, my companion on small trout streams and out on trails. Harley was a female lab, so I know you know the intense love this breed has for their human companions.
I'm just wondering if you or any of your listeners have done something or have advice to help get over this kind of loss. It's one thing to lose a pet, but the relationship you [00:21:00.079] acquire with a dog that you have a working relationship with is on a different level. How do those people cope with not having that familiar presence in nature that has been there for almost what would be half my life? I'm 30. I hope you can use this question on the fly box even though it's not the typical fishing or technical question. Also, your or other listeners' feedback, ideas, or direction may help me out in this time of great loss.
My final thought to all the [00:21:30.015] listeners who are lucky enough to have a good dog that makes for that very rare fishing dog: make sure you never take that for granted. I've owned several dogs, but only one was special enough for the job."
Well, thank you, Ben. I'm sorry to hear about your dog. That's a big loss, and I've lost a few dogs in my time. Fishing dogs are tough, you know? Getting a good fishing dog is really, really difficult because you have to have a dog that [00:22:00.214] that won't get in your way, won't jump in the water when you hook a fish, won't bother other anglers on the water. So, it has to be a dog that's super obedient and super mellow so that it doesn't get in anyone's way when you're on the water. And a good one is rare.
As far as what you can do, I can only tell you what I do. Maybe other listeners have [00:22:30.704] different ideas on this. When I have an older dog, we usually get a younger dog so that we always have at least one dog in the household. So, and having two dogs around is a pretty cool experience. And then, you know, if you only have one dog, not everybody follows this philosophy, but my philosophy is if I only had one dog and I lost it, the first thing I would do is [00:23:00.315] right away go out and find another dog, either a puppy or a rescue dog. I think that it won't replace the loss of that very special dog, but at least you'll have a new companion to train and hopefully will become another great fishing dog.
Here's an email from Jake from Boston. "Today, I fished a very popular river that is stocked in wild fish. I walked three separate half-mile stretches [00:23:30.184] and didn't see a fish. I fished very popular spots as well as drove miles downstream to a section I've heard but never fished. Everyone I ran into, six to seven people, kept saying the same thing, "I haven't even seen a fish." Is this a thing that happens? The river is usually packed with fish. They're hard to catch, but they're everywhere. Do fish really move this far downstream? The water was low for sure, but I've seen it this low and caught fish this time of year the past two years." [00:24:00.029]
So, Jake, yeah, I've seen it. And trout are amazing at hiding. When they're not feeding, they're tucked away somewhere where you can't see them. And for whatever reason, only the trout know, some days they just don't show themselves. And I've seen it many times in rivers that I know were full of [00:24:30.079] fish, and yet it looked totally dead.
You know, some things, it can be water temperature. Especially if the water is cold, fish aren't gonna feed much. They're gonna stay hidden in deeper water and tucked under logs and things like that. And they're only gonna feed for, you know, maybe half hour a day when the water temperature rises a little bit.
They can move too, but probably those fish didn't move. They're probably there, and they were just not interested in feeding, whether it was the [00:25:00.029] barometer or the moon phase or any of those other crazy theories that we have about why fish feed and why they don't. I wouldn't give up on that stretch, and you're gonna have days like that. You fish enough, you're gonna have days when you swear that there is not a single fish in the river even though you know they're there. So, just keep going back, especially when water's a little warmer, and I'm sure you're gonna find those fish again.
Here's an email [00:25:30.049] from Mark. "I really enjoy fly tying tie-offs you have with Tim Flagler and Cheech. They're highly entertaining and very instructive, as I have picked up many techniques that have improved my tying abilities. There's one point that I would like to get a definitive answer to. That is whether it's better to twist up a dubbing needle in a clockwise or counterclockwise direction. Is there a reason I should twist my dubbing in a specific direction?"
Well, Mark, if you want a definitive answer, I'm afraid you're not [00:26:00.140] gonna get one. Tim Flagler believes that you need to twist your dubbing in... I can't even remember whether it's a clockwise or a counterclockwise direction because he thinks it unwinds as you wind the thread because the thread does twist a little bit. And I can't sort out the physics, and I'm not smart enough to figure it out.
But the one thing I did was I dubbed a thread both ways [00:26:30.954] and I wound it on a hook, and I looked at it under a macro lens and then blew up the picture. And I fuzzed it up with a brush to see which one would hold up better. And, honestly, I don't think it makes a difference at all. You need to go in one direction only, but whether it's clockwise or counterclockwise, I'm gonna disagree with Tim Flagler. I don't think it matters. So, what I suggest is that you try it both ways and [00:27:00.335] see how your flies hold up. Maybe mark the flies that are tied, dubbed clockwise one way in maybe a different color head, and dub some more counterclockwise and try them out and see how they hold up.
All right. Another phone call. Got lots of phone calls this week. And if I don't read your phone call, it may be because it was too long, but also because I haven't gotten to all of them because I was gone for two weeks hosting trips in Chile. So, [00:27:30.025] just hang in there if I don't read your question this week.
Eddie: Hi, Tom. I just finished reading "America's Favorite Fishing: A Complete Guide to Angling for Panfish." It was written back in 1964, and it has some great tips on fishing for panfish, including a whole chapter on fly fishing.
Many of its tips for the fly fisherman would be fighting words for a modern fly fisher, like using small spinners and spoons or even soft plastics. That's not even to mention his idea of tipping your fly with pork rinds. However, [00:28:00.345] there is one tip I wanted get your feedback on to see if it was a gem lost to time or if it faded away because of poor performance in the field.
The book suggests that tying a loop on the fly end of your leader large enough so that after it passes through the eye of the hook, the loop will fit over your fly. This will allow you to tie your flies on with a girth hitch by passing the loop over the fly and back onto itself. By doing this, you can easily swap your flies by undoing that girth hitch. No need to [00:28:30.025] cut and retie.
Now, obviously, I will not suggest this method when fishing for trophy fish, but do you think this is a good idea when fishing for bluegills, blue lining, or just messing around trying to find what they're eating when you're swapping flies often? Or am I missing some major issue that could cause the fly to come undone? Please let me know what your thoughts are. Thank you.
Tom: So, Eddie, that's a great old book that "America's Favorite [00:29:00.085] Fish." And I think that tying a loop and then using a girth hitch or just...it's kinda like a loop-to-loop connection on a leader will work. I don't think it'll come undone, but the problem is that in some hooks you may not be able to get a loop through the eye because you have to go through the eye to tie that girth hitch. So, you know, if the hook [00:29:30.105] is big enough, you can certainly do it, and it should work well.
It's an interesting concept. I hadn't heard about it, I guess. Well, I guess I read that book when I was a teenager, but I hadn't remembered it, I guess. It's a good idea if the hook eye is big enough. But, honestly, I think it's just as easy to tie a clincher or a Double Davy knot than it is to do a girth hitch over a fly. So, I've never really bothered with it. But if it works for you, try it. [00:30:00.095] As long as you got a good loop knot like the non-slip mono loop, it should work fine.
Here's an email from Nick. "I've been a fly fisher for about 35 years. Self-taught since fishing with a guide has never been within the budget. Your podcast has been inspirational to push me out of my ruts and inspire me to refresh and get back to learning and growing in my practice of our sport. Thank you. While I enjoy the interviews, the fly box is my favorite part [00:30:30.194] of the podcast because it introduces me to different points of experience and new outlooks on problems and situations.
One question has been nagging me. I usually fish a two-fly nymph rig, and it's the method of attaching my dropper that I'm questioning. I have always tied my upper fly on by sliding it up the tippet about 12 to 20 inches depending on the depth I'm fishing, tying an improved clinch knot but leaving the tag end and tying my dropper to this. I think this is easier than [00:31:00.019] tying my dropper to the hook eye or the bend of the upper fly. The question is I've never seen or heard of anyone else doing this. It has worked for me for quite a few years, but is there any downside or problems with this method that I'm just not understanding? I'd appreciate your insights here."
Well, Nick, I've never tried it that way, but the way I understand it is that you never wanna pull on the tag end on a knot when you're tightening [00:31:30.339] it and then after you've tightened it because that can loosen the knot and make it fail. So, I would not tie a fly onto the tag end because I think if you get a really large fish and you put a lot of pressure on that, or in a snag, that knot's gonna come undone and you're gonna lose both flies.
That being said, you've been using it for years, and it seems to work for you. So, if it works for you, well, why not stick [00:32:00.009] with it? But I would just caution you that tying anything to the tag end of a knot is something that most people advise against. So, you know, try it out. Try it different ways. You know, you could try testing it and seeing if it weakens the knot. Try, you know, putting it in a block of wood or something and yanking on it and see if it opens up the knot. But, again, if it works for you, [00:32:30.089] keep doing it.
Here's an email from... Didn't give the name. "Hi, Tom. I am a fly fisherman from Pennsylvania who fishes in the central part of the state and up east toward the West Branch Delaware. I travel to Penn, Spring, Pine Creek areas and have a cottage in Susquehanna County in Northeastern Pennsylvania for the Northeast creeks. I've learned a lot listening to your insights. On your recent podcast and prior podcast, the topic, how fast rising trout return to eating [00:33:00.200] after they're put down by a catch or some other disruption.
A few years ago, my sons and I were fishing near Redding, Pennsylvania, on Tupeloquen Creek. This upper section of the tule is about 40 yards wide and medium speed, 2 to 4 foot depth at the time. Nice conditions for a good drift since we always get everything right on every cast. We were catching rainbows and browns that were sort of potting and using number 16 and 18-sized generic caddis as dry flies alone and also as dry [00:33:30.079] droppers with a slightly larger fly and using a midge below.
We would alternate which two of us would cast to the fish to minimize the water slapping. We had all netted several fish, and then, yikes, from upstream of this tailwater came along two fellows who were float stocking the stream. Of course, as fishermen, we are happy to see a stream that is stocked and gets attention as the Tuplah Hockton does. I understand the tule has wild browns in addition to frequent stockings.
Interestingly, these two fellows with their [00:34:00.015] small barge about 10 feet long and filled with buckets of trout walked right in front of us and directly through the area where the fish had been rising. That's okay. If they're willing to put in the time, we are thankful for their work. It was fun to watch their stocking efforts, and we were particularly interested to see if the rising fish would return to their feeding habits and how long it would take. It was not 15 minutes later that the fish started to gradually return to their rising behavior that they had displayed just recently, and we started to catch fish on top once again. [00:34:30.045]
Certainly, all of us have seen cases where fish get spooked and go down and don't come up for a long time, but here's a case where their tails were stepped on by two guys in waders, who walked among the trout, and a boat floated on their heads right through their feeding lane. And yet, they got hungry again, and we caught fish on top soon afterward. Go figure. Just another typical day on the stream, right?
Thinking back, while we had that stream section to ourselves that day, this is a fairly well-pressured spot. So, maybe these trout are used to weird activity [00:35:00.914] more so than a lesser-known area and return to eating faster than a more pristine spot. Maybe a group of trout has more confidence to rise together and eat again rather than a single riser that gets stung or slapped by a fly line.
I guess my takeaway from this, be patient. It's hard to guess what will happen. So, give the trout or pod a chance to rebound, and maybe they will. Maybe sooner than moving to another area. It's a nice chance to relax and take in your surroundings and pause the competitive [00:35:30.394] quest for a few minutes. Come to think of it, some days on the West Branch Delaware or maybe other high-traffic Western rivers get drifted over like a July 4th boat parade. What are your thoughts and comments? Have you seen similar situations?"
Well, I certainly have. And I think that fish that are either A, hatchery origin, or B, are in a heavily pressured area, particularly with a lot of boat traffic, won't stay spooked for that long. [00:36:00.244] Then again, I think that a wild trout in a stream that's not heavily fished could be spooked for hours. And there's no rhyme or reason to it.
And it's interesting because I was asking a good friend of mine, a guide in Chile named Evas, who I fish with a lot when I'm in Chile. And of course, we're fishing over wild browns and rainbows there most of the time. They're not stocked fish. They don't stock there anymore. [00:36:30.224] And I asked him, because I always ask guides questions like this. I said, "Evas, how long do you think it is before a brown trout that's been spooked will feed again?" And he said, "Six, seven, eight hours, maybe a day." And that pretty much agrees with what I've observed, again, on wild trout streams where there isn't a lot of pressure. But as you point out, they can come back pretty quickly. So, I think your advice [00:37:00.219] to hang out and wait, and see if they come back is a good idea.
I still don't like fishing behind somebody else unless it's a heavily pressured river because I think that they've spooked the fish. But, yeah, I've seen it too. And I think you're exactly right. I think that one fish feeding might give the other fish a sense of security. And if they're in a pod, it's more likely that they're going to rise together because, [00:37:30.139] you know, it's a safety in numbers thing. One fish rises, and the rest of them think it's okay. Whereas a lone fish that's maybe not in a pod might be spooked longer. But this is one question that's never gonna have a definitive answer. And as you said, it's worth a try, sitting down and waiting and see what happens.
Here's an email from Bill. "Thanks for the podcast, Tom. Find it enjoyable and informative. I appreciate the way you teach. You're very skilled but seem to be eager to learn yourself. Thanks [00:38:00.110] for helping me get the fly box you recommended a while back. I hope Orvis appreciates how much product you move for them. Next is the wading staff.
You mentioned Orvis's rod building facility on an earlier podcast. You said you weren't sure if they were doing tours yet after COVID. I found that interesting because I toured the facility last summer, 2024, when my wife and I vacationed in Manchester. I got there at the time for the tour and thought it must have been canceled because no one was there. [00:38:30.380] But after looking around, I was welcomed in and given a great tour by one of the employees. I highly recommend it, and I'm wondering if maybe folks don't know they're doing the tours.
My question is about sling packs. You recommend them over vests, and I've thought about trying one but just wanna make sure it will work. If you're wading, for example, where would you keep your net? Also, is there one you'd recommend for wading smaller to medium-sized streams in the Great Smokies?"
So, Bill, thanks [00:39:00.074] for your comment about the rod shop. And, yes, the rod shop is open for tours. It's not open on the weekend because they don't work in the rod shop on weekends, but it's open Monday through Friday at 10:30 a.m. And you just show up at the rod shop. It's right across from the Orvis retail store, and you'll get a great tour. It's one of the most interesting industrial tours you'll ever see. And the people there, as you said, are very welcoming and very proud of what they do. [00:39:30.934] So, anybody that's in this area, I highly urge you to take a rod shop tour. It's pretty, pretty interesting.
Regarding sling bags. I've used one for years. I went away from a vest, I don't know, maybe 20 years ago, and I like a sling bag. The reason I like it is that I can carry a lot of stuff in my sling bag. I carry a lot of fly boxes, usually when I'm on a bigger river or when I'm on an unfamiliar river. [00:40:00.105] And I carry a lot of fly boxes, but when I'm fishing, I can slide it around, and it's behind me, and it's not in the way. It's not sticking on my chest. It's not hanging on my belt and catching fly line. It's behind me and out of the way.
And, you know, there's a D ring on the sling bag for a net, so you can just hang your net with a magnetic net retriever or whatever on the sling bag. Or you know, if you have a long-handled net, a [00:40:30.025] lot of people just stick in their wader belt, stick it behind them in their wader belt. So, lots of ways to carry a net with a sling bag.
Orvis does sell a smaller size. I use the big guide sling, again because I carry a lot of fly boxes. But for, you know, small streams where you don't need a lot of stuff, there's a smaller version, which works just fine. So, what I would do if I were you is go into a fly shop or a retail store and try one on, [00:41:00.054] and walk around and see how it works for you. You know, slide it around the front, see if you can get into all the pockets, and slide it around the back and see how it frees up the front of your body, and see how you like it. It's my recommendation anyway.
Sam: Hey, Tom. This is Sam calling from Southern Maine. Hope you're doing well. Just have a few questions for you today. The first one is, what is the deal with landing nets when striper fishing? I don't see a lot of guys using them when they're [00:41:30.025] fishing for stripers. You know, a lot of times they're dragging them up on the beach. And I understand that certain bass are just gonna be too big for a landing net, but there's plenty of nets that'll fit, you know, schoolies and even slot-sized fish, I feel. So, just curious on why that may be and if you think there is a place for landing nets when striper fishing.
Second question. I'm eyeballing an old, used anti-reverse reel on eBay, and I'm curious what your thoughts are on those. [00:42:00.014] Obviously, part of the fun when you're, you know, you catch a big fish or you hook into a big fish and it starts peeling drag, and you're trying to get your hand in there to get some line back, but you run the risk of busting your knuckles pretty good. And anti-reverse reels really take that excitement away. So, I'm curious if you think that these reels are kinda not cheating, but, you know, kinda taking away that danger element of the battle. So, just curious what your thoughts are on that.
And then [00:42:30.019] my last question is I'm considering tying some of the silicone patterns that Bob Popovich created back in the 90s, and I'm just curious on what your thoughts are on those. Obviously, there's plenty of patterns nowadays that do a great job in imitating the profile of bait fish, but they are far less bulky than silicone and even epoxies. So, just curious if you think those patterns are sort of antiquated. Obviously, they're [00:43:00.170] still gonna catch fish, and I'm still gonna tie them just because I like experimenting with new materials. But you know, is it worth the struggle that I anticipate it might be when it comes to casting?
Anyway, that's all I got for you, Tom. Thanks for everything. Hope you and everyone on the team are hanging in there. Only a few weeks until spring. Well, maybe not a few, but we're almost there. Thanks for everything, Tom. [00:43:30.610] Bye-bye.
Tom: Well, Sam, yeah, I don't know many people that use nets for stripers. You know, in general, schoolie stripers, it might be a good idea, smaller stripers. But the nice thing about striped bass is that you can...they've got a grip on them. You know, you can stick your finger in their jaw and lip them and hold on to them. Now the one thing you wanna do is to make sure that you don't lift them [00:44:00.099] by the lip. That's not good for them. It's not healthy, and it can damage them.
But when you get a striper close to you, if you're wading, just kneel down and keep the fish horizontal in the water and stick your thumb in their mouth, and then you can...you got a good grip on them. You can remove the fly, and, you know, a net is just another thing to be carrying around with you. And I don't know of anybody who actually uses a net striper fishing. Again, I don't... I think because [00:44:30.239] they're really not needed.
From a boat, yes. I think probably more people fishing on a boat should use, especially a boat with high gunnels, because, you know, ideally, again, you wanna keep the striper horizontal when you lip them and keep them in the water. And, you know, a boat with high gunnels that might be difficult to do, especially in rough weather.
So, yeah, probably, a net might be a good idea. Need a big net, though, for striper fishing, but [00:45:00.835] probably a net would be a good idea in a boat. But again, I don't think wade fishing is a good thing. You know, you don't wanna drag the fish up on the sand, but you don't have to. You can still keep them in the water and lip them and handle them as little as possible.
Regarding an anti-reverse reel, yeah, they were popular for a while. They got a lot more moving parts. There's a lot more to go wrong with an anti-reverse reel. [00:45:30.614] And I used to use them, and I always found that the slightest little dent or ding in the spool would make the reel rub. And I just found them to be more trouble than they're worth. So, if you like the idea, try it. But there's a reason that you don't see them anymore these days. They're just too complicated. There's too many moving parts and too much to go wrong with an anti-reverse reel.
Regarding Bob Popovich's silicone patterns, [00:46:00.190] yeah, I used to use them. I don't use them much anymore. I find working with the silicone is a little messy, and I think we've got other ways of creating a head or something on a fly without using that silicone. It does work. The thing about silicone also is that it floats. So, you know, if you want a fly that sinks fairly quickly, you're gonna have to put some weight on the fly as well as the silicone because it'll float the fly. [00:46:30.744] If you want a fly that's gonna ride more on the surface film and on top of the water, silicone is a good idea. But again, it's kinda messy and kind of a pain. So, I haven't tied a silicone pattern in a long time. But they work. They work well. So, you know, try them out. See how they work for you.
All right. That is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Jake about the life cycle of the mysterious [00:47:00.179] crayfish.
All right. My guest today is Jake Villwock. And Jake is a guide, an author, and a fly designer, and an all-around good guy. And Jake, tell people the names of your books, just so if they're interested, they can go out and buy an actual physical book instead of listening to a free podcast.
Jake: So, currently, I have one book out right now. [00:47:30.195] It's "Smallmouth Bass Flies: Top to Bottom." And I am currently in the process of writing my second book, which is gonna be called "Favorite Flies for Smallmouth." So, it's part of the series book that Stackpole started about three years ago, where they've got "Favorite Flies for Pennsylvania and Colorado."
Tom: Right. Yeah.
Jake: So, it's a smaller book. It's only 25,000 words instead of 100,000 words, but it's gonna showcase 50 of what I would [00:48:00.135] consider the top flies in today's day and age for smallmouth. And there'll be a short introduction on, you know, some of the founding fathers and how, you know, if they didn't exist and their flies weren't around, there wouldn't be a lot of the flies that are here today.
Tom: Cool.
Jake: So, you know, give a little tribute to those guys.
Tom: Great.
Jake: But, yeah. So, that's it for right now on the books stuff. And then I'm also a contributing author for "Fly Fisherman" magazine. So, about once a year, I do an [00:48:30.114] article for them.
Tom: Great. And we had seen each other down at the Virginia Wine and Fly Fishing Festival, and we talked about doing a podcast. And you suggested a topic that I immediately jumped on: crayfish. Because I feel that crayfish are super, super important both in trout streams and in bass rivers and lakes. And we know so much about, you know, [00:49:00.065] mayfly life cycles and stonefly life cycles and caddis life cycles, but we don't know a hell of a lot about crayfish. And they're so important. So, let's start out with the life cycle of a crayfish and why they're so important.
Jake: Yeah. So, the life cycle of crayfish is, you know, very similar to most other bugs, in all honesty. There's an egg stage, [00:49:30.014] a larva stage, a juvenile stage, and then the adult stage. So, it has four major life cycles.
You know, so what happens is the males and females, they actually mate in the fall. And then in the springtime, the females stay... Basically, through their slight hibernation phase, they, you know, make the eggs. I don't know how the proper word is, but... [00:50:00.034] And they hatch, and the eggs stay attached to the female for about... You know, they're up underneath of her tail basically for three to eight weeks.
And then once they hatch, they're like these little larvae, and they remain also attached to the female. Until they can swim by themselves, that's when they'll kinda separate. And then once they're... I guess that takes about two months or so. [00:50:30.184] And so once that two-month stage is up, so in all honesty, they stay attached to the female for close to four months, which is kind of wild.
Tom: Wow.
Jake: And that's another reason why they're so prevalent for, you know, fish to eat, which we can talk about in a little bit. But the juvenile stage is actually, I think, one of the most important stages of the crayfish, and I think that's part of the reason why, you know, you look at different studies for diet for both trout and for smallmouth, and I will [00:51:00.574] primarily talk about smallmouth for this moment. But they say that 80% of a smallmouth's diet in the late summer into fall is crayfish.
Tom: Wow.
Jake: And a lot of people are like, "Oh, yeah. That makes sense. There's just a lot of crayfish." But I like to look at the kind of, you know, backside of it, like in the shadows of the life cycles and what's going on behind the scenes of the ecosystem. And crayfish juveniles [00:51:30.144] actually molt 6 to 10 times the first year of their life. So, they become super soft. There are, you know, thousands, if not millions of them, you know, in the system around that time. So, they, you know, you've got your four months from basically April, May, June, July, and then you hit that August, September, October time frame when those young of the year are really molting and, you know, [00:52:00.155] very easy to eat.
And then just like mayflies turning from adults to spinners, an adult crayfish, or I should say a juvenile crayfish, becomes an adult once it has molted those 6 to 10 times. And then after that, crayfish males molt twice a year, females molt once a year after they release their young. So, there's soft crayfish, if you will, [00:52:30.054] throughout the entire year for these fish to eat. So, that's pretty cool.
Another fun fact about crayfish: a crayfish can live up to 30 years.
Tom: Wow.
Jake: I found that out the other day when I was just kinda reading up on some stuff just to make sure all of my facts were correct. And so they're pretty old bait, if you will. Old creature. So, it's pretty neat.
Tom: All right. So, I got a bunch of questions already. So, first, so they [00:53:00.014] only mate once a year? Only one brood a year?
Jake: Yeah. Once a year. Yeah. And that brood, I think, can be up to 400 eggs.
Tom: Okay. And then, when they molt, do they... I think I've read or heard that they molt in relation to the moon cycle. Is that true?
Jake: So, I'm gonna say yes, that is true, but in all honesty, nobody really has any idea.
Tom: Okay. [00:53:30.034] Okay.
Jake: There's studies that have been done. Some people say it's water temperature. Some people say it's moon face. Some people say it's, you know, daylight time, things like that.
The females molt right after they've released their young. So, I don't know if that relates directly to moon phase in that particular, you know, time frame or if it's just a, "Hey. My babies are gone. Now I'm gonna start fresh."
Tom: Okay. [00:54:00.260] And then don't you think that a lot of times when we're fishing stonefly nymphs or bigger mayfly nymphs and we think we're imitating a mayfly or a stonefly, that actually the fish think it's a small crayfish?
Jake: Absolutely. Yeah. A hundred percent. All fish are opportunistic, and the crayfish in general, they're a slower-moving kind of methodical [00:54:30.000] type of bug. So, anything that's slow-moving, I think that, yeah. I mean, because a juvenile crayfish, when they're in that initial, you know, first year of life, they're anywhere from the size of your thumbnail to about an inch. So, that's a pretty standard size for a big mayfly nymph. So, absolutely.
Tom: Yeah. Now, behavior-wise. So, let's say adult. What does an adult crayfish do all day [00:55:00.010] long? And, you know, when are they more active? When are they likely to get... You know, because they live under rocks. I know some of them live under rocks, and some of them live in the bank, in the mud, in burrows, right? So, what do they do all day long?
Jake: Well, they eat, actually. So, they're omnivores, so they will eat, you know, mayfly nymphs. They will eat grass. They will eat, you know, [00:55:30.250] kind of they'll eat moss and things like that. So, I think most of the time, they're hunting underneath of rocks. And so what most... So, there's surface-dwelling crayfish, which is ironically the ones that are on the bottom of the river, and then there are burrowing crayfish, and those are the ones that you can find, you know, in the muck and edges of banks and things like that.
So, they call...one of our native [00:56:00.010] species is called the chimney crayfish or the devil crayfish. So, they create those little mud chimneys. But most of our crayfish that are in the water, that our fish are feeding on, are spending most of their time underneath the rocks, kinda burrowing little surface tunnels throughout the rock system, and they're feeding most of the time. But they're also, like I said, they don't move super fast unless they absolutely have to. So, they're a pretty easy [00:56:30.130] meal for most fish if they know where to look for them. And so, yeah, they're moving stones around. They're digging holes. They're munching on stuff.
One thing that's super interesting about crayfish is that their color actually directly relates to either what they're eating or the health of the system. So, rather than being negative and saying the pollution of the system, it's the health of the system. So, the more, [00:57:00.269] of that brownish green that you have, the healthier the crayfish is because it's more of a natural color. Where once you start getting more of those, like, dark olive and brown ones, that's actually, you know, where their exoskeleton picks up other pollutants in the system.
And so when they molt, they're super bright. They're either, you know, orange, red, you know, bright green, a blue, or a purple. And then throughout their, you know, [00:57:30.170] season or before their next molt, their skeleton will...their exoskeleton actually, will absorb the coloration of whatever pollutants or food that they're eating or absorbing, which is kinda cool.
Tom: So, are they more active at night? Are they more active during the day? I mean, when are they crawling around so that the fish can get at them? You know, they get dislodged, or they're moving from one rock to another. When are they most active?
Jake: [00:58:00.130] So, they're most active... I think it doesn't have much to do with daylight or nighttime. It's more of water temperature. So, their kind of peak metabolism, if you will, is anywhere from, like, 55 to about 85, which is almost identical to a smallmouth's metabolism, which is why they're always eating them because they're the most active, you know, during that time frame.
Once the water goes below about 55 [00:58:30.349] they will actually start to, you know, they don't hibernate in the sense of like a bear or anything like that, where they stop feeding, but they become super, super, super sluggish and slow and very inactive. So, they're still around, but they're not out and about, you know, eating. And so I think that water temperature is where it comes from.
The other interesting thing is that, you know, they mate in the fall. The females lay their eggs in the spring, [00:59:00.355] but the males actually stay sexually active throughout the entire winter. So, when that water temperature hits 55, the males will actually come back out of the rocks and kind of do their little mating dance for a little while until they realize that nothing's coming over to visit them.
Tom: I've been there.
Jake: Right? So, that's why in the springtime you don't necessarily think about, you know, crayfish being a main food source except for the fact that you need to fish crayfish [00:59:30.324] because they get down and you can fish them slow. But they're a very easy meal when they're in that mating stance of their life. So, fall and spring are actually two easy times for those fish to eat those males. And then the rest of the year, when it's in that water temperature, that's when they're kind of moving around pretty regularly.
And when it comes to getting dislodged, I think, I'm not really totally sure how often that happens [01:00:00.094] naturally in the sense of when we pick up a rock or something like that or whatever. But they're constantly moving around. They actually have phenomenal eyesight. They're a lot like an insect, where they have a bunch of little tiny eyeballs to create, you know, one eye. So, they can look around them. And I can't remember the exact, you know, degrees at which they can look around them, but they can move...they can look pretty far to either side without moving their head. So, they're constantly looking for food as well, and so I think a lot of it is them just being out looking and then being like, "Oops," and then they're done.
Tom: So, they're only gonna swim, and they swim backwards. I mean, anybody that's ever seen a crayfish knows that they're kinda jet propelled. They use their tail, and they swim backwards. Is that gonna be pretty rare? Is that something that they don't like to do?
Jake: Yeah. So, crayfish [01:01:00.985] will actually swim any direction: front, back, side to side. But when they're in a defensive mode or a spooked mode, they only go backwards. So, they shoot their tail once or twice, and they, you know, like you said, they jet propulsion themselves backwards.
But if they can't get away, that's when they get into their fighting stance and, you know, try to just look big and mean. Obviously, they can be very mean if they get you, [01:01:30.114] but they're kinda like us with bears, where if a predator is coming, we wanna get really big, really loud. And if that doesn't work, unlike bears, they run. So, yeah.
Tom: All right. So, let's talk about flies and methods to fishing these flies.
Jake: Sure.
Tom: That's what everybody wants to know, you know.
Jake: That is true. [01:02:00.025] The life cycle is just the life cycle. But, you know, that's part of why we fish them the way we fish them is we just...
Tom: Yeah. We need to understand their behavior before we can imitate them, right?
Jake: Yes, exactly. So, I mean, this is the part where I can be extremely long-winded and probably boring because I've become very obsessed with fishing, you know, crayfish over the years just because it is one of the most efficient ways to fish [01:02:30.065] for bass and for trout, and we can talk about that too when we're done talking about flies and stuff.
But, you know, some of the flies that I would say stand out to me the most, you know, some of the original flies, like Whitlock's Near 'Nuff Crayfish. I mean, that thing is, in my opinion, one of the best, you know, designs of a crayfish. You know, I think that... Well, let me just back up for a second and say that, [01:03:00.125] you know, most of our native crayfish are in that kind of 2 to 3 inch range as an adult.
And then we've got the invasive rusty and the invasive red... I think it's called the red clay. It's a Louisiana one. It's a bright red one, but... It might be the bright red one, but either way, the invasive rusty is our most common invasive, and that thing can get up to 5 inches. So, you know, it's a big meal, but it also has pincers [01:03:30.554] that are probably twice the size of any of our native crayfish. So, it's also a fight to eat it.
So, in my opinion, my most successful size of crayfish is in that 2-inch range. And so you look at, like, the Clouser Cray. You look at the Near 'Nuff. You look at even the, you know, guys from Fly Fish Food, they have a fly called the El Crawcito. They're all in that, you know, 2-inch range. And that, in my opinion, is the [01:04:00.094] number one thing that you wanna do when it comes to crayfish.
Now, Blane Chocklett has his Changer Craw, which, again, is a phenomenal fly. It's a little big for our summertime stuff just because we're fishing a lot of low, clear water, and, you know, it's sometimes a bigger fly. Even though it might be natural, it's harder to get in front of those fish without spooking them.
And then I have a fly that I've been developing for the last couple seasons that I call the Claw Daddy, and it is a single articulated crayfish. [01:04:30.505] It's got pine squirrel for the claws because, again, I wanna have smaller claws. I want it to be an easier meal. You know, rabbit zonker, or rabbit hair, I should say, cut off of the hide and reverse tied over it to kinda give it that more natural, you know, taper to it. And it's got a little bit of foam on it to kinda keep, you know, those claws up just a little bit.
But one thing I will say, and some people might have [01:05:00.054] no idea what I'm talking about. And if you don't Google it, you'll understand why. But there's a conventional lure out there called the Ned rig.
Tom: Yeah. I've heard of it.
Jake: Yeah. Little, soft plastic stick bait. Super durable. It's got little air pockets in the tail of it, so it sits straight up and down. So, even though it's just a little stick bait, it's literally a 3-inch rubber worm, basically. [01:05:30.309] It is ridiculously effective when it comes to smallmouth. And when that lure first came out or that soft plastic came out, I saw so many tiers be, like, "Oh, gotta tie a Ned fly. Gotta tie a Ned fly." So, they tied these goofy-looking flies with foam on them to get them to stick straight up and down.
And I thought to myself, "Yeah, that's great. But why is a tube jig with a spinning rod or a Ned rig with a spinning rod so efficient and so effective?" And I figured [01:06:00.349] after watching a couple of my clients that are terrible fly fishermen but are really good at spin fishing, and so that's why I let them fish with me, fish these things, you know, really well. I realized that the crayfish and the Ned rig and all of these flies that were fishing subsurface and these lures are fishing subsurface, the reason why that's so effective is not the lure itself or the crayfish itself. It's how well a spin fisherman [01:06:30.849] can manage the speed of that drift and can manage the depth of that drift, and there's virtually no drag on that setup because they're fishing 6 or 8-pound fluorocarbon straight down to that lure.
So, in my mind, I was like, "Okay. That's great. The Ned fly might be awesome, but how do we fish the subsurface flies, crayfish, hellgrammites, stone cats, whatever, the same way that [01:07:00.239] a spin fisherman can fish a tube jig or, you know, a weighted lure like that?" And my concept, or my idea, was kind of quite simple when you think about it, but it was using a floating line and a slightly thinner diameter leader.
So, just like saltwater fishing, you know, every bonefish fly, every permit fly, redfish fly. Most of the time you're fishing some sort of a crustacean on a longer fluorocarbon leader with a floating line. [01:07:30.309] Now you don't have currents to really, you know, worry about in that sense, like, you know, river flows, but you can manage how fast you're retrieving that fly by the reaction speed of the fish versus the sinking rate of your fly line if you're using a sinking line, whether it's an intermediate or fast sinking line.
And so for me, I was like, "Okay. How do we get a crayfish to stay down on the bottom, not [01:08:00.150] get stuck quite as much, but also be able to feel that take or see that take?" And, you know, for a lot of anglers, it's the same thing as nymph fishing before indicators were a thing. You know, you're using the tip of that fly line, but now with a floating line and a longer leader, you have the ability to, one, make your drag a little bit less subsurface. So, when I build a leader, it's a full flouro leader, and my butt section starts only at 20 pounds [01:08:30.295] and kinda tapers down to about 8 pounds.
So, I found the thinnest diameter that I could to still turn that fly over, but also the least amount of resistance when it's under the surface. And then keeping that fly line above the surface now gives you the ability to mend it both upstream, downstream, throw a little stack mend in there. You know, do all of these manipulation to that fly line to slow your retrieve down, all while still being able to see the tip of your fly line and using that as your indicator whether [01:09:00.114] or not a fish eats it.
And so, you know, that's, again, my long-winded answer to that, but that's what's got me super excited about crayfish. And it works, and you don't lose nearly as many crayfish because now, instead of having a fly line under the surface, which if you've ever tried to, you know, mend a sinking line of any sink rate, it's kind of impossible. But it's also pulling your fly down into the bottom, versus every time you mend a floating line, it kicks [01:09:30.074] that fly up a little bit, and that's where you get that little tail flutter and that drop back down. And so I think that a floating line longer leader has become the key to my success, you know, fishing crayfish.
Tom: Now what about fishing a mono rig? Wouldn't that...
Jake: Oh, why would you say that?
Tom: No. No. I know you probably don't wanna go there, but...
Jake: Well, I have not...
Tom: ...wouldn't that work well too?
Jake: Oh, absolutely. A hundred percent. And, you know, I [01:10:00.104] actually do a little bit of straight euro nymph style stuff occasionally too. But I will say, last year, I was fishing with George Daniel a couple times in the early spring, and, you know, we weren't having super great success. So, I brought some heavier crayfish out, and he brought a mono rig with him. And, you know, if you're good at it, it's amazing. I mean, I watched George throw those crayfish underneath the trees better than some bass [01:10:30.145] anglers can with a spinning rod. You know what I mean? I was trying to do it, and I was in the trees half of the time. But no, a mono rig can work great for that, and it's the same thing. It reduces all of your drag, and that's the key.
Tom: Yep. So, before we move on, this fly that you mentioned, I forgot, the one that you developed, can people see that online somewhere, how to tie it, or is it available commercially?
Jake: [01:11:00.145] So, it will be available commercially probably either summertime this year or spring next year. But, yes, it is on, I just did a video with Ahrex Hooks after the Fly Tying Symposium. So, there is a tying tutorial of that on the Ahrex YouTube channel.
Tom: Okay. Great.
Jake: So, that one's pretty easy to find.
Tom: Okay.
Jake: I will also say that, you know, with that particular fly, you know, I messed around with different weights [01:11:30.925] and I found that a lighter crayfish is actually better. You know, when I first started fishing crayfish, I was fishing, you know, type six sinking lines, medium, large, lead eyes, and I spent more time tying flies than I did actually fishing them. So, you know, I switched over to small, extra small lead eyes. They worked great, but, you know, lead's a soft material, so it's harder to feel.
[01:12:00.659] And so then I decided, well, let's try tungsten. And, you know, the advantage of tungsten is it's, you know, a little bit more dense, so you can feel it hit the rocks and hit the logs and a fish eat it and stop it. But it's heavy, and it drops a lot faster. So, my idea was to add a little bit of foam to the back end of that fly, not necessarily to get the fly to sit straight up and down, but kinda counterbalance the weight of that tungsten to get a little bit of a [01:12:30.029] slower drop.
Because even though it might take longer to get down, it also gives a fish more time to see it as it falls. And when you kick it up, when you mend it or strip it, it falls a little bit slower. So, it's not like this kinda jackhammer approach where it's just like [vocolization] hitting in the bottom. It's more of a flutter. And the flutter and the slower speed is huge. My dad used...
Tom: And do you think that drop [01:13:00.869] simulates a crayfish that's been disturbed and is trying to get back to the bottom just like a lot of crustacean flies?
Jake: Absolutely. Yeah. And that's what I was about to say. My dad, he used to be, you know, a semi-competitive bass angler, and the amount of fish that he used to catch on a 4-inch Senko minnow with no weight, just slowly falling down. I mean, the Senkos have a little bit of weight, like, in the... It's a denser rubber. So, it falls [01:13:30.120] fast enough, but it doesn't fall so fast that it immediately gets stuck on the bottom. And the amount of fish I've seen that guy catch before that worm ever even hit the bottom is astonishing.
And so I think not only does it imitate that kinda slow flutter back down or, you know, even if it's a little faster, that kinda jolting back down to the bottom, it just gives a fish more time to see it. And if it's a natural profile with movement, immediately that fish is gonna [01:14:00.090] think food, and, you know, that's part of the thing.
The other thing is talking about presentation speed, is that one of the reasons why trout and smallmouth like crayfish so much, is that they are a very easy meal to hunt, right? So, they don't move super fast unless they have to. So, a fish can get pretty close to that without using a lot of energy, unlike chasing down a caddis pupa that's jolting to the surface [01:14:30.020] or a minnow that's swimming along the bottom. It's something they can methodically hunt without using a lot of energy. And I think that's one of the biggest things.
And what's also really neat, and I didn't actually know this until, you know, yesterday, was that the average adult crayfish has about 77 calories that's digestible in its body. So, for a trout, 77 calories [01:15:00.039] is like us eating a Big Mac from McDonald's. You know, it's a lot of, you know, nutrition in one meal. And so if they can hunt it slow and they can eat it without doing a whole lot, and they get that much nutrition from it, there's no reason why it shouldn't be one of their number one food sources. So, I do think that's also pretty cool.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. So, 77 calories in the [01:15:30.055] average crayfish. What's a mayfly nymph? Probably like two.
Jake: Probably three.
Tom: Yeah. Two or three.
Jake: I didn't look at that. But, yeah, about that probably.
Tom: Yeah. Okay. So, let's talk about presentation technique because it sounds like that's probably the most important part of this whole equation, as it is in most fishing, is how you present the fly, right?
Jake: Yep. [01:16:00.845] So, presentation, in my opinion, you know, to keep it simple, is low and slow, and making it as easy as possible for a fish to eat it. And I think that that's one of the hardest parts about fishing a crayfish is that it's all via feel, right? And so what's also very interesting is that smallmouth in general, trout would probably do the same thing in the sense of closing [01:16:30.414] a gap, a short gap quickly.
But smallmouth are genetically designed to be what I call slow creepers, right? They spend most of their time hunting, moving very slow and methodically on the bottom, just looking. Smallmouth have some of the best eyesight of any predatory fish in freshwater, maybe even saltwater. I'm not sure of that. But definitely, that is their number one source for hunting is eyesight.
So, you know, smallmouth is, you know, creeping along the bottom, creeping [01:17:00.005] along the bottom. All of a sudden, it sees a crayfish. It's gonna keep creeping, keep creeping until it gets just close enough where that crayfish realizes it's in trouble. And then with one flick of its tail, it's gonna close that gap, and it's gonna pin it to the bottom, or it's gonna get so close that it flares its gills and just sucks it in. So, there's not this explosion of an eat that an angler can feel, especially if they're fishing 4 feet of water, 2 feet of water, and they're maybe 40 feet [01:17:30.204] away from their rod tip.
So, being able to feel it is very important. So, just like euro nymphing, just like using a mono rig, you know, getting it on the bottom and kind of, you know, flirting with disaster of almost moving too slow. What I tell people is, like, "Look, move that thing so slow that you get stuck once. And then once we get it unstuck, move it just a hair faster than that, and that's gonna keep it off the bottom for the most part."
I mean, obviously, if you're coming close to a [01:18:00.034] log jam, you're gonna have to move it. But, like, on a standard bottom where you've just got that kinda, you know, whether it's shale shelving or like a boulder field, you know, where you can keep that crayfish just over the surface or kind of hopping up over those rocks, that's the most efficient way to do it.
And that all directly correlates with using a floating line because now every time you do anything on the surface, you're pulling that crayfish off the bottom versus kinda shoveling it down into [01:18:30.074] the bottom. So, every time you bend it, every time you strip it, that tension brings that fly up and then drops back down. But every time you do that, you remove a little bit of that slack. And so staying tight and slow is probably the most important, you know, two things to that entire, you know, process.
Tom: Okay. And angles. Sounds like you're mainly fishing in an upstream direction [01:19:00.319] if you've got quite a bit of current.
Jake: That is a great question. Yeah. So, you know, just like your standard, you know, fly cast, 10:00, 2:00, right? So, like, if I'm in a drift boat or if I'm wading, I'm gonna cast that, you know, whichever direction the river's going. I'm gonna turn to my right or left and kinda go up to about that 10:00 zone, and that's gonna give me the ability to use the flow of the water to not only, [01:19:30.140] you know, slow it down... Well, to use the flow of the water to kinda help remove that slack, but it's also gonna give me the ability to slow it down a little bit and use the direct, you know, flow speed of that river to know the amount of times I have to mend it or strip it or throw in a little bit extra slack. And so I'm kind of always casting slightly upstream.
If we're moving, in the sense of, you know, if we're floating and fishing, this is where [01:20:00.119] we typically, you know, get stuck the most. But I tell most people to fish it like you're fishing for a permit or a bonefish or a redfish that's slowly following that you can see coming. So, you're not stripping it super fast. You're basically just pulling it in that kinda 6 to 10 inches at a time, and it's just a constant pull.
Because every time you pull, you know, it's moving it, it's lifting off the bottom, and then that little bit of slack that you've just created [01:20:30.310] is now getting tightened again because that fly's dropping back to the bottom. So, kind of if you're moving and fishing at the same time, you wanna kinda keep it in that 6 to 10 inch strip length, popping it every once in a while with either the rod tip or your hand. But, again, you want it to basically just be slowly meandering, so you don't want it to be moving really, really fast.
So, you know, upstream... I did a little video, [01:21:00.029] for "Fly Fisherman," two years ago talking about different approaches to crayfish. And one of them was the direct, straight upstream, where you're just kinda stripping it back as it's, you know, coming down. The other one was kind of slightly, you know, upstream and across.
And then the third was a slight downstream, and I called it, like, a downstream hybrid mend where you're kind of casting at that 2:00 range. And instead of stripping it, you're actually mending it and then picking up [01:21:30.130] the slack. You're mending it and picking up the slack.
And so you're not getting it closer to you in the sense of, like, strip, strip, strip, strip, strip. Because with the current pulling it away from you, you've got enough tension already doing that. So, if you mend it, that slows it down a little bit, gives it a hop, and, you know, you kinda do that until it gets right below you, and then you strip it back.
So, those are kinda the three main ways. There's straight up, kinda slightly across, and then downstream. But [01:22:00.130] I definitely prefer a slight upstream angle because that gives me the ability to use the water as my, you know, kinda indicator of what I need to do as the angler, keeping it slow or speeding it up depending on what, you know, the crayfish is doing on the bottom.
Tom: Okay. Now, talking about molted crayfish, and you said they're light-colored, right? They're brighter than the [inaudible 01:22:30.536]. [01:22:30.284] Do you, at certain times, fish, you know, a non-crayfish color? You know, when we think of crayfish, we think of brownish or olive-ish or kinda reddish. But do you ever fish a wild color to imitate those molted crayfish?
Jake: Occasionally, I do. I should say in the history of me crayfishing, absolutely. I mean, I've done fire tiger crayfish. [01:23:00.284] I've done blue crayfish. One of my favorite colors is blue and purple, although it doesn't always work. Black and purple is another great color. I typically only tie those for when we're fishing in dirtier water to give it a nice profile.
But in all honesty, with every single color I've ever used, even the difference between, like, a tannish color, like a tan and orange or [01:23:30.074] a brown and orange, or a tan and brown and a straight olive, olive will outcatch, in my opinion, in my history, and the amount of fish that we've caught on crayfish. The only color I truly tie anymore is olive because olive seems to work no matter what phase they're in. And that's just something that that I've found. I mean, I've had at one point, I probably had 10 different color combos of crayfish in my box, and [01:24:00.225] for whatever reason, olive was always a guarantee.
The other thing that I will say is every single crayfish has orange somewhere on its body, whether it's, you know, at the tips of its claws and the junctions of its claws, in its legs, you know, the junctions of its legs. So, every single crayfish, no matter what color the base color is, I always add some sort of orange hot spot or [01:24:30.034] orange accent color to it because, in my opinion, orange to a smallmouth is what chartreuse is to a saltwater fish, right? It's that one color that they just know is food.
Tom: Interesting. I'm gonna have to start adding some olive to my crayfish, or I'm gonna attempt the type. I'm not a big fan of olive streamers, and lots of friends of mine who are better streamer anglers than me [01:25:00.444] fish olive. And I don't know. I got something against it, and I gotta get out of that habit.
Jake: So, when it comes to streamers, like, you know, I fish a lot of, Russ Maddin Circus Peanut. And same thing. I have it in... Well, that's not entirely true. Depending on the condition, I've got basically three different color combos that I tie. I tie a tan and yellow, an olive and tan, and then a black and purple.
[01:25:30.590] And, again, I've tied all different variations, all white. And for whatever reason, same thing. If it's a traditional clarity day where it might be either gin clear or slightly off color, olive works every time.
Tom: All right.
Jake: If it's that kind of, like, you know, dirty but sunny day, I should say slightly dirty to dirty sunny day, that tan and yellow works really well. And then if it's [01:26:00.760] muddy and dark, then that, you know, the black and purple works really well. So, you know, when it comes to that... And I've listened, and I've talked to Russ a couple times, and, you know, his take on color is that for any forage food, for wherever you're fishing, your forage food, your streamer color should be similar to the bottom of that river because every forage food wants to blend into that bottom.
So, you know, if you're fishing a lighter bottom, [01:26:30.039] it's better to have a lighter fly. If you're fishing a darker, dirtier bottom, darker, dirtier fly. So, I don't know what it is about the olive. It just seems to work. So, I don't do many different variations with crayfish than olive.
Tom: All right. Well, I'm gonna get smart and start tying more olive flies.
Jake: I'll bring you one of my crayfish at the next show we're at.
Tom: All right. Yeah. I would love to have that for my collection. That would be great. [01:27:00.359] All right, Jake, is there anything we missed about crayfish? We talked about flies. We talked about colors. We talked about presentation, leader, a little bit. Rod, I assume that you're probably fishing a 6-weight or... Five, six, or seven, somewhere in there.
Jake: Yeah. I mean, so, typically, rod-wise, I'm fishing, honestly, 7-weight is kind of my crayfish rod. You know, it's got enough backbone to turn it over, [01:27:30.189] but it's also not, you know, as stiff as an 8-weight. You know, so you can kinda feel that. So, you know, I honestly like a little bit slower rod for crayfish, just so you can feel it a little bit better, you know, than fishing something a little heavier. Six weights are fine too. I do fish a lot of sixes on that. But, yeah.
And then floating line, you know, totally I love SA stuff. My favorite line for crayfish [01:28:00.079] is their new Infinity Plus, which is basically one line weight heavier. So, you know, it's a longer head, so it gives you the ability to mend a little easier, but it also still carries that crayfish well, you know, at distance. So, I think that's, you know, a great line for that.
You know, some people complain about it, and I'm like, "What line are you fishing?" They're like, you know, "Whatever standard trout line or something." [01:28:30.039] And I'm like, "Well, it's great for throwing a dry fly 60 feet, but it's not gonna help you carry over, you know, that crayfish very well." But, you know, it's just one of those things where I just think that, you know, if you pick the right line, even though you're fishing a thinner leader most of the time, you can still turn it over at a distance, which is good.
So, I will say the other thing is if you are cray fishing, no [01:29:00.020] matter what happens to the tip of that fly line, always set the hook because there are so many times where, again, like I mentioned, crayfish. When it's fast or it tries to eat some crayfish, it's not a swim-through eat. A lot of times, it's just a hesitation. So, you know, making sure that you set on everything is really important.
The other nice thing about a crayfish is that you can set. And if it's not a fish, you can just let it back down and finish out that drift because, you know, a giant [01:29:30.279] jerk of a crayfish is a natural, you know, presentation still. So, even if it maybe it was a fish and you missed it or maybe it was a rock and you, you know, just barely ticked it, crayfish bite back. So, a lot of times, I've noticed this, and I don't see it with any other, you know, fly that I fish, is that if you miss a bass on a crayfish and you drop it and let it sit there again, there's a really good chance that that fish is gonna [01:30:00.036] come back and try to eat it again because it's used to getting its mouth pinched when it eats crayfish.
So, you know, I really see it with nothing else. Most of the time when you prick a fish on a bait fish or a popper or something like that, they're done. But when it comes to crayfish, they're like, they get a little bit mad. So, yeah.
Tom: Yeah. I remember once watching a trout from a bridge eat a crayfish, and it pounced on it, chewed it a couple times, [01:30:30.534] spit it out, dropped back, grabbed it again, chewed it, spit it out, dropped back a little bit more, you know, until the crayfish was a little bit easier to handle and then finally swallowed it.
Jake: Then swallowed it. Yeah. I think the trout thing's really interesting too because I feel like a lot of people, and maybe this isn't true, but at least in my small circle of friends, the streamer fish, they never talk about crayfish [01:31:00.505] being something that trout eat a lot, but they're in every single system on this planet. That was something that I found was really cool. There's over 300 species of crayfish in the United States.
Tom: Wow.
Jake: So, you know, we've got some pretty common native ones that we'll see in our area, like the Allegheny crayfish, the northern crayfish, the northern clearwater crayfish, which [01:31:30.345] the northern clearwater crayfish is the closest native crayfish to the rusty crayfish, but the claws are still smaller. And one of the things about rusty crayfish is rusty crayfish always have either... Well, they always have a little, like, rusty blemish on their shell or their carapace, but they also have black tips on all of their claws. So, they might have some orange on there, but the very end [01:32:00.045] of the claw is always black.
So, the northern clear water crayfish and the rusty crayfish look very similar. But if you pick them up, you can see some pretty significant differences in that. But, you know, they're an easy meal for all fish to eat, and they are, you know, packed with nutrition. Their shells have a crazy amount of calcium too. So, it's kind of like us drinking milk. You know, they're chomping on that shell. So, the shell itself [01:32:30.175] actually has a lot of nutrition in it as well. So, it's kinda cool.
Tom: Yeah. I mean, I've always noticed where you see a lot of crayfish, you see big trout.
Jake: Yes. Yeah.
Tom: Without fail.
Jake: Yeah. And they like the same type of water as a big fish, right? Like, they don't like fast-moving water. They like, you know, slower-moving water. They like structure, you know, on the bottom, and they also [01:33:00.335] need a lot of oxygen. So, you know, you're gonna see them in the same spots as those bigger trout. And I mentioned before that, you know, crayfish need or I should say they're very sensitive to pollution. So, you know, the more crayfish you see, the healthier your system is.
And I think a lot of people don't really think about that because they're like, "Oh, they're just crayfish." You know, they're kinda like the catfish of the crustacean world, right? They're everywhere. They don't need healthy systems. [01:33:30.034] But, you know, the rusties, are more, you know, adaptive to that. So, that's why I think there's a lot more rusties in a lot of our kind of dirtier systems. But when it comes to our native species, you know, they need the healthiest, you know, water quality. So, you know, you put those things together, and that's why you're gonna find big trout, big bass anywhere there's a lot of crayfish.
Tom: [01:34:00.454] All right. Well, Jake, I wanna thank you for that. I certainly learned a ton, and I'm inspired to try some new techniques, and I'm sure lots of people listening did because it's something we don't study that much, and I think there's a lot more to learn about fishing crayfish flies.
Jake: Yeah. I've become slightly, like I said, obsessed with it because it's just a...it's a very effective [01:34:30.194] way to fish, and it's an interesting way to fish. I've got some of my clients that they love...who doesn't love watching a bass come up and eat a foam bug or a popper? But, you know, we had a couple days where they just weren't really on the surface in the summer, and I said, "Hey. We're gonna fish this crayfish." And he said, "It looks like a pile of leaves." And I was like, "Well, luckily, the fish don't think that."
And, you know, he struggled with it at first, you know, figuring it out [01:35:00.149] but he's a big saltwater guy. You know, he does a lot of redfish, a lot of bonefish. And I said, "Listen, just fish the crayfish just like you're fishing for redfish or bonefish." And he's like, "Oh, okay." And then he started catching fish. And almost every summer day that I fished with him since then, this was probably four or five years ago, he's like, "Can we fish crayfish?" I'm like, "Well, they're eating poppers." He goes, "I don't care. I love fishing crayfish. It's so fun." I'm like, "Listen, dude. You do what you gotta do." So, you know, it's an addictive way [01:35:30.119] to fish for sure.
Tom: Yeah. And effective. Very effective.
Jake: Well, that too.
Tom: Yep. All right, Jake. Well, I'm gonna see you soon at the show in New Jersey. And by the time people hear this, it's gonna be over. But anyway, wanna thank you for taking the time and sharing your knowledge with us. I'll talk to you soon.
Jake: Absolutely.
Tom: Thanks, Jake.
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? [01:36:00.130] Send it to us at