Get Ready for this Year's Cicada Hatch, with Dave Zielinski
Podcast Transcript:
Tom R.: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And this week, we're gonna be talking about cicadas. And yes, according to the expert Dave Zielinski, cicada is the way to pronounce it. At least we think it is.
[00:00:30.519] Anyway, regardless of how you pronounce it, these are important bugs in certain parts of the country, and they can create some amazing fishing opportunities. And Dave has written a book called "Cicada Madness," which is really the ultimate guide to finding out where these things are gonna be falling into the water, what time of day to fish them, how to fish them, what flies to use, what rods to use, all that stuff.
So if you wanna [00:01:00.000] try to catch one of these amazing bug falls, I guess you'd call it, because it's not a hatch, really, it's not an aquatic hatch, and you wanna catch trout, bass, carp, gar, even catfish, on a dry fly, this is your opportunity to really experience something that only comes around every 13 or 14 or 17 years.
[00:01:30.670] I've had a lot of requests for a podcast on cicada fishing. And I've never done it other than the occasional annual cicada on the Green River in Utah. So, Dave's the expert, and he's gonna tell us some really cool stuff about these amazing bugs.
All right. Before we do the Fly Box, I just wanted to give you some ideas of where you might wanna go on a fishing trip next year. I'm gonna [00:02:00.159] talk about one of the Orvis-endorsed lodges and an outfitter, and then an independent guide.
So the lodge this week is Camp Bonaventure. And this is one of the...kind of the grand old salmon fishing camps. It's been in existence for about 30 years. Only takes 12 guests. And it's on the Bonaventure River, which is one of the clearest Atlantic salmon rivers [00:02:30.439] in the world. The water... You've probably seen pictures of this river. It just looks like there's nothing there. It looks like there's air in the river. And they also fish the Cascapedia, which is known for some of the largest Atlantic salmon in the world, and also the Petite Cascapedia.
And they also have some brook trout fishing. And these are kinda... It's a kinda unique area because these rivers stay cold all summer long. Some Atlantic [00:03:00.199] Salmon rivers get really warm, and the fishing gets off. But the rivers in this area stay cold all summer long. So it's a place where you're less likely to hit a slow week. And as those of you who've done Atlantic salmon fishing know, this can be a risky proposition because you never know when the salmon are gonna be in the river. So you go to the best place you can, and you hope for the best. They fish for these [00:03:30.330] Atlantic salmon with both dry and wet flies.
And if you have never been Atlantic salmon fishing, it's something you should do at least once. It's a magnificent game fish and increasingly rare in today's world. And this is one of the best places in the world to catch maybe your first Atlantic salmon.
The outfitter this week is Confluence Fly Shop and Deep Canyon Outfitters in Bend, Oregon. [00:04:00.555] And this is some place I have never been, and I have always wanted to. This area, the Deschutes area, is on my list of places that I wanna go and I wanna experience. I got a lot of them, but that's one of them. That's right up at the top. Got a lot of places that I've never fished. But they fish the Deschutes River course for native rainbows and summer steelhead, and then they have some [00:04:30.014] numerous small streams. They have spring creeks like the Fall River. They have some great still water fishing for large rainbows.
So, you know, this is a great part of the world. They're based in Bend, Oregon, which is, I hear, a fantastic town. Again, I've never been to Bend, but I hear it's one of the coolest towns, coolest trout towns around. So, maybe you can get there before I do. If you wanted [00:05:00.084] to fish the Deschutes and you wanted to fish this area around Bend, I would contact Confluence Fly Shop and Deep Canyon Outfitters.
And our independent guide for the week is Art Sawyer. And here's a guy I do know. I've fished with Art a number of times. I've filmed with Art. Art fishes on Cape Cod. He trailers his boat so he can go...he can take his boat to wherever the striped bass or bonito [00:05:30.454] or false albacore or bluefish fishing is the best. Art's a real veteran of the water. Used to be a commercial fisherman. He's one of the nicest, most mellow human beings I've ever met. He's got a lot of great stories. And a day on the water with Captain Art is a real pleasure. So if you're interested in fishing the Cape Cod area, especially for striped bass, but for other species, [00:06:00.134] I would contact Captain Art.
And you can find all these on the Orvis Adventures page. If you go to orvis.com/adventures, there'll be an interactive map there. You can see all the endorsed operations that we have. And these are ones that we recommend. These are ones that we've been to, that we've checked out, that we've tested, that we've fished at. We've talked to the guys. We've talked to the owners. We meet with the owners often once a year. [00:06:30.754] So, these are people we keep in touch with, and they're places, honestly, where the fish nuts at Orvis go on their vacations usually because we know we're gonna have a great experience.
All right. Let's do the fly box. And the Fly Box is where you ask me questions, and I try to answer them, or sometimes you give us tips. And there's some really good tips [00:07:00.004] from listeners in this podcast. If I don't answer your question, maybe I answered it a couple weeks ago, or maybe I've answered it a number of times. Or if I don't use your tip, maybe it's something that we've talked about before. So I do read them all, but I'm not able to answer all your questions. But I do enjoy reading them anyways just to see what you're interested in, and that allows me to tailor the podcast to things that you wanna [00:07:30.115] listen to. So if you have a question or a tip, you can send it to me at
The first question is from Chris from Georgia. "I recently came across tying videos using off-center tungsten beads, sometimes called drop beads. Supposedly, they enter the water much more quietly than [00:08:00.019] lead eyes, etc., making them great on the flats. They not only use different sizes but multiple beads on cyborg shrimp, so you can have a wide range of weight options, and they can be put anywhere on the shank to achieve different actions. This pattern was fun to tie." He's talking about the cyborg shrimp. "But I have not fished them. However, in theory, they make a lot of sense. Do you have experience with these? And if so, what are your thoughts? Can you think of other specific cold or warm water patterns or applications that might be worth giving a shot with? [00:08:30.459] After the episode with Jason, I thought about crayfish. Thoughts? Thanks for all the help you provide."
Well, Chris, yeah, I've used these drop beads a lot in just my normal bead heads. And what they do is they give you a fly that is for sure gonna ride upside down because the weight is concentrated above the shank of the hook, so they ride upside down. So it gives you the effect of a jig hook on a [00:09:00.649] standard-sized standard hook without having to use a jig hook. So you may have a hook that you like in particular, and you want it to ride upside down. You can use one of these drop beads.
So you can use them in streamers. You could put them on the belly of a fly. That would make it kinda interesting. Tie it upside down and put them on the belly of the fly. But I think you're talking specifically about saltwater flies. You mentioned the flats. And I do think that [00:09:30.004] there's a lot of potential application for flies with beads instead of bead chain eyes or lead eyes on the flats.
They don't actually make a lot of sense. I mean, they do help the fly ride upright in the water, and when it sits on the bottom, it sits upright. But shrimp don't have eyes in the back. Well, they swim backwards. They don't have eyes in the back, and it's not very realistic as a shrimp imitation, [00:10:01.315] having bead chain eyes. In fact, actually, the famous Crazy Charlie, or Nasty Charlie as originally called, which was one of the first saltwater flies to use bead chain eyes, was an imitation of a glass minnow, not a shrimp. But, you know, we think they're shrimp imitations.
So I think there's a lot of potential for using beads instead of bead chain eyes and lead eyes on flies for the flats. You know, [00:10:30.524] there's a couple flies that use a bunch of beads that are strung on a piece of monofilament and hang down below the fly. So it rides upside down, and they kinda click in the water, so they probably add a little rattle action. So I think there's a lot of experimentation to be done. I know I have tied some sand eel imitations for striped bass with beads instead of lead eyes, and they work quite well. So, I think that there's a lot of [00:11:00.024] experimentation to be done, and we got a lot to learn about using beads on saltwater flies.
Alex: Hi, Tom. This is Alex from Fort Worth. I have a question about swinging soft hackles. I really enjoy it. It's a great way of catching trout. It's a great way to spend time on the water. I'll usually run a train of five or six soft hackle flies all in line tied on the bend of barbless hooks. I've noticed that it seems like the lower flies on the train tend to get unbuttoned quite a bit, [00:11:30.154] a lot more than I've experienced on, like, say, a dry dropper rig or an indicator with multiple dropper flies. Is it just me, or do you run into this problem as well?
I know you enjoy swinging soft hackles, and I just wanted to lean on your experience if you had any ideas of what's going on or how to fix this. I don't mind tying these soft hackles on tags, but with five or six flies, a lot of times it can create an unholy mess. [00:12:00.115] So I just prefer to keep it in line. It just keeps a lot neater, especially when you put the hook up and you're changing spots. Fortunately, soft hackles are easy to tie, so it's not that big of a deal. It is just more annoying than anything else. But I'd love to hear your comments, and I look forward to you answering the question. Thanks, Tom.
Tom R.: Well, Alex, boy, you're one of the few people I've ever heard of that fishes that many flies at once. Now you have to be careful because a lot of states restrict the number of [00:12:30.004] hooks you can have on a line. Some states are...the states that I know of are three or two. And you better check your local regulations before you go fishing five or six flies on one leader because you might be fishing illegally. So I haven't checked Texas, but it would be a good idea to check that.
Regarding missing those flies, I think you're saying that the fish are getting unbuttoned. Well, I think that's probably a problem [00:13:00.250] of having the flies all in line. You know, I think all those flies in line, the fish might bump up against the leader. And, you know, another thing is when you're swinging those flies downstream, you're gonna miss more fish. You're just gonna miss more fish because the fly is pointing upstream and the fish is facing upstream, and it's really easy to get a strike but not get that hook stuck in their jaw.
One of the things you may [00:13:30.110] wanna do is try not to let the flies hang directly downstream of you. Although that's sometimes effective, that's where you miss a lot of strikes. And then also, don't set the hook when you're swinging wet flies. Just let the fish hook itself. And if you get a bump and you don't hook the fish, chances are if you set the hook, it wouldn't have done you any good anyways. So you wanna just let the fish get hooked and then tighten after you actually feel the fish on [00:14:00.000] the line. And double-check those regulations before you go fishing that many flies on one line.
Here's an email from Kurt from Washington, D.C. "First, regarding the blood knot, I've been experimenting with some leader patterns that call for some short 6 to 8 inches of, say, 3x or 4x. I can't seem to get the section's length correct. Often, they turn into 8 to 10-inch sections. It would seem that these 2-inch discrepancies, 25% to 30%, are quite [00:14:30.000] large relative to discrepancies on the longer segments. Do these discrepancies interfere with the physics of leader design? Any suggestion on how to deal with this? I try to keep the knots tight when tying them, but I miss the mark. When is the triple surgeon's knot a good substitute for the blood knot?
Second, I took your advice in experimenting with overweighting line size. I put a 5-weight line on my Orvis 7-foot-4-weight Mid-Flex TLS Power Matrix rod. Works great [00:15:00.110] in practice. Seemed to have improved the precision of my cast. I can't wait to try it on the stream. Do you think the same advice applies to the newer Recon and Helios models or more so for older Orvis rods? Thanks for your reams of advice over the years and to Orvis for their support."
So, Kurt, regarding your blood knot issue, you know, you just gotta practice and just figure out how much you're gonna lose [00:15:30.039] with every knot you tie. Try to tie the knots consistently. And, you know, if you're consistently 6 to 8 inches or 8 to 10 inches, then, you know, use a little shorter segment. You should be able to get it a little closer to that 6 or 8 inches. But honestly, in those, what we call transition sections, I don't think having them a little long is gonna hurt a thing.
As long as you keep them relatively short, [00:16:00.000] you wanna taper that leader down from the heavy butt section to the finer tippet section in a fairly rapid manner. But I don't think a couple extra inches is gonna make any difference. Give them a try and see how they cast. But I don't think it's gonna matter that much. But, again, getting consistent lengths is just a matter of practice and measuring what you start with and figuring out how much you cut off with each blood knot and how much it takes you to tie a blood knot [00:16:30.284] and then go from there. I think you'll get it.
Regarding surgeon's knots, the triple surgeon's knots are fine. They're not as clean and smooth, as they're a little bumpier and bulkier than blood knots. But especially in the finer sections, if you wanna use triple surgeons, there's no problem doing that at all. Some people don't like to put them in the heavier butt section pieces because they make a pretty big knot. But I wouldn't worry about it in [00:17:00.174] the smaller sections. So I think just a little practice there is gonna help.
Regarding your overlining, sounds like you're fishing short casts and small streams. And yeah, overlining, particularly older rods, which tended to be a little...they weren't stiffer, but they were a little less progressive than the newer models and didn't bend as much in the tip. So on short casts, I think the older models, overlining it is gonna help you a [00:17:30.025] little bit, particularly in small streams or short casts, because you're gonna be working the rod a little bit better.
And, you know, often when we're teaching casting, we will sometimes overline a rod because although distance casting might be a little bit more of a problem because the rod's loading a little bit too much, you know, on short-to-medium-length casts, the caster can feel the rod bending a little bit better by overlining. [00:18:00.394] So, not so much on the modern Orvis rods, on the Helios rods. I always stick to the rated line size, and I find that they're just fine. Some rod manufacturers do make their rods what I consider awfully stiff and underlined. But the Orvis rods, in my opinion, are spot on to line size unless you're just making a lot of short casts, and then maybe you wanna overline them by one line size.
[00:18:30.839] Here's an email from Nathan. "I'm a long-time listener, but this is my first time reaching out. A friend of mine and his wife last year fished for brook trout and walleye in the outlet of a medium-sized river, 25 feet wide, and very heavy current. They were catching 17-plus-inch fish right at this outlet in a deep section of the river, 8 to 10 feet deep. My friend is excited for me to try and catch some of these fish on the fly this spring. He and his wife [00:19:00.210] use spin gear. I know this spot in the river and can foresee myself having difficulty getting my fly to the bottom where my friend said the fish are. I plan on tying a mix of streamers and nymphs. Generally, I try to avoid the use of split shot. I would appreciate any recommendation. Thanks for all you do for the sport. Love the podcast."
So, Nathan, I'm not sure if you're trying to catch the walleyes or the brook trout, maybe both. But in a 8 to 10-foot deep run, [00:19:30.349] and fast current, you're gonna have to use a full sinking line. Either a full sinking line or a depth charge line, which is a heavily weighted front end with an intermediate running line. I don't think you can get down any other way. Even with split shot, you might be able to get down, but it's gonna be really clunky, and you're gonna have to use a lot of split shot. So, I would recommend doing that, getting a full sinking line or a depth charge line with a weighted fly.
[00:20:00.309] If you're fishing for walleyes, you wanna put on a streamer, and it probably should match the prevalent bait fish. Whatever they're using for bait or for lures, you wanna try to match that with your fly size and color. And throw it upstream, let it sink, bend a couple times, let it swing around, and then hopefully, it'll be deep enough and then strip it back to you. If you're in a boat, that's even better [00:20:30.049] because it's a lot easier to get that fly deeper. If you're from the bank, it's gonna be tough. But I think you can do it with a full sink line or a depth charge and a weighted fly and a short leader. I would say a 4-foot leader.
And really, you wanna do the same thing with the nymphs. I don't think there's any good way to get a dead drift in 8 to 10 feet of water without using so much split shot that you might as well be using [00:21:00.470] a spin rod. So, again, a short leader. For the nymphs, you want it to be, you know, something lighter, maybe a 3x tippet, 4 feet of 3x, and cast it upstream, mend it, mend it, mend it, let it get down, and then just crawl it slowly around the bottom, along the bottom. And hopefully, the brook trout will be interested in that.
If there's brook trout there, they might eat the same streamer that the walleyes are eating. If they're in the same place, they're probably eating bait fish too because [00:21:30.430] walleyes are very much bait fish feeders. So anyway, if you're looking to catch a walleye, I have caught walleyes this way on a fly rod. And, you know, you just gotta get down there, and a sinking line is the best way to do it.
Tom: Hi, Tom. This is Tom from Palatine, Illinois. I have a question for you. Last week, I was fishing in the Driftless Area up in Wisconsin. [00:22:01.509] Had some good weather. I've seen a lot of fish, but the water is very low and clear. I was trying to be very quiet and very stealthy, even crawling on my hands and knees, trying not to spook the fish. But, obviously, I spooked every little brown that I saw. Didn't catch a thing, but I'm looking for some advice on how to be a little bit more sneaky in trying to sneak up on the fish. [00:22:30.255] I'd love to hear any advice you can give me.
Also, I can't thank you enough for everything you do for the fly fishing community. You've answered so many questions for me. And the other thing I'd like to say is the gentleman who lost his lab last week. My heart breaks for him, but I agree with you. He should get out and get a new pup, start to train it, and hopefully, will have another great fishing partner. Tight lines, and [00:23:00.105] thank you again for everything you do for all us intermediate fly fishermen and for all the fly fishermen. Hope you have a great week. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks again. Tom.
Tom R.: Well, Tom, one question that you didn't answer is did the fish spook before you cast or after you cast? So if the fish spooked before you made a cast, you just tried to sneak up [00:23:30.075] on them, and you couldn't get close enough to make a cast, you know, those fish are gonna be almost impossible to catch. You said you kept your profile low. I'm sure you were moving slowly. And, you know, fish can catch you sneaking up on them, even when you come up from behind them because they turn side to side when they feed in the current, and they're gonna see you eventually. And they're gonna be very spooky in that low, clear [00:24:00.384] water.
So, if they spook before you cast, there's a couple of things you can do. One is to wait for either very early morning or right before dark, where you can sneak up to them a little easier. They're a little bit less cautious. They can't see as well. A really misty, rainy day, a dark day with a low ceiling, you might be able to approach them. But if it's a sunny day and you're spooking them, there's not much you can do if you can't get close to them.
[00:24:30.075] So, what I would do is I would look for fish in other areas. I would look for fish in riffles, in deeper water, you know, along the banks where they feel a little bit more secure. But those fish that are out in the open on flats and low, clear water, sometimes you just can't get close to them. So you need to wait for the right weather conditions, or you need to find some faster broken water, and hopefully, you can catch those fish. I mean, I know lots of times that I've had [00:25:00.125] to pass up fish in areas like that because I knew I wasn't gonna get a cast over them.
Now, if the fish are spooking after you cast, then there're some things you can do. Go to a longer leader. If you use a 9-foot, go to 12. If you use a 12-foot, go to 15 feet. A longer tippet and, you know, cast a little bit off to the side of the fish and try to just put the tippet over their heads and try to [00:25:30.025] keep that fly line as far away as possible. But sounds like you were just spooking them just walking up to them or sneaking up to them, and there's honestly not much you can do there.
And well, the other thing you can do is you can keep trying different fish. You know, fish are all different, depending on exactly where they are in the current and how secure they feel. And sometimes you'll spook a bunch of fish, and then you come up to one that's not so spooky. So sometimes [00:26:00.255] you just have to keep moving and hope you can get close enough to one to make a good, accurate cast.
Here's an email from Paul. "I have an opportunity to go to Cape Cod in June to fish for stripers. I've looked in the podcast library and found several articles on salt fishing, but I have a few questions that get deeper into the weeds. First of all, I've got the rods, reels, do-it-yourself fishing basket from Google, plenty of suggestions for flies, and a place to [00:26:30.005] camp. So here are my detailed questions.
One, I've got hook sizes 1o and 2o. Are those sufficient? Two, in looking at tying recipes for deceivers and clousers, etc., I got the pattern down, but I can't really get a good feel for the length of these flies. Six to 8 inches? Three, silly question, but do you crimp the barbs on these hooks? They're big and sharp, and I hate to get one in my ear. Four, I have both the sinking line and poly sinking tips. Good enough? Five, I've not been to the Atlantic Ocean [00:27:00.289] in 30 years. Is it warm enough to wet wade in June? Six, anything else I'm not thinking of?"
Okay, Paul. Well, I usually don't answer questions like this, but since I am quite familiar with striper fishing on Cape Cod, I've done it for many, many years. I can answer these questions. So number one, hook sizes 1o and 2o are sufficient. I would also tie some fours and sixes. Really depends on where you're gonna be fishing. If you're gonna be, [00:27:30.039] wading the flats where the fish are in shallow water, those hooks might be okay, but I typically use fours, sixes, and even size eights on the flats. You want a smaller fly that, particularly in June, when the sand eel, the bait that they're after, are very small, you want a small fly that enters the water quietly because you can spook a fish just with the fly hitting the water.
And that ties into your 6 to 8 inches. [00:28:00.119] That is too big unless you are fishing in the surf or unless you are fishing from a boat out in the rips. Flies like that are good for the offshore fish, but not so much for the inshore fish. I mean, they'll occasionally work, but you want some 1 and 2 and 3-inch and 4-inch flies as well. So you wanna try some smaller ones. Sometimes the fish are on really small flies, [00:28:30.180] again, particularly if you're fishing the flats in shallow water. Sometimes we use bonefish flies, which are quite a bit smaller for those fish and small crab flies. So, you do want some smaller ones, depending on where you're gonna fish, because there's a big difference between fishing a heavy surf or fishing on the inside in protected bays and estuaries and things like that.
Do you crimp the barbs on these hooks? Yeah. I crimp my barbs. Striped bass [00:29:00.009] don't jump. And, you know, as long as you keep pressure on them, that hook's gonna stay in. So, yeah, and it's windy, and they're big, sharp hooks, so you can definitely crimp the barbs without any problem.
You have both sinking line and poly sink tips. That's good enough, but don't go without a floating line because, especially in the shallow water, a floating or an intermediate line, you're fishing really shallow. And the popper fishing and gurgler fishing [00:29:30.224] can be pretty good. So you wanna make sure... You probably do have a floating line as well. But you wanna make sure that you have a floating or a slow-sinking intermediate as well.
And regarding wet wading in June, it depends. It depends on where you're fishing and what time in June. In some of the inshore waters, Cape Cod Bay and Nantucket Sound in June, the water might get up to, you know, 70 or so or even [00:30:00.214] 72 or 73. But if you're fishing the outer beaches in the Atlantic Ocean, that water might be in the 50s, and that's cold. So I typically wet wade in June, but, you know, if you're gonna be out there all day, it can get pretty cold. So, it really depends on your tolerance for cold water and exactly where you're gonna fish.
And anything else that you're not thinking of, yeah, there's lots of [00:30:30.045] things, but those will get you started. Go and have a good time. Look around for the fish and enjoy Cape Cod.
Here's an email from Jason. "I recently purchased a new Orvis Superfine Graphite 7'11" 4-weight and was curious the line to match it with. I live near the Driftless Area in Wisconsin, and as you know, our creeks can be very small, sidewalk or smaller. I've heard the SA creek trout would be a nice choice. However, I'm a little confused [00:31:00.434] with their oversizing. How does that work if I were to choose that line? Would I still match with a 4-weight or go down to a 3-weight due to the line being oversized by a size? Or is there a different line you'd recommend altogether?"
Well, Jason, unlike most fly rods, those Superfine rods are designed to cast in short. So, you know, I normally tell people with a traditional Helios [00:31:30.065] or Recon or something, if you're fishing really small stream, short casts, you wanna overline it. I would not overline one of those Superfine rods. So, you know, a half-size heavier creek line might be okay, but what I use on those rods is just a standard, either the PRO Trout or the Superfine line. Both of them, I find to work just fine.
But I don't think you wanna overline them because they're... Unless you really wanna slow down that rod [00:32:00.105] and make super, super short casts. Because, again, those rods are designed to do, you know, what we really wanna do in small streams is make short, accurate casts and have the rod bend somewhat when you make those short casts.
So I would, you know, ideally, it'd be great if you could go to a fly shop and try one of those lines out and see how it feels. I have not used one of the creek lines on the Superfine rods. But again, I've [00:32:30.244] been using the standard lines of the weight that the rod calls for, and I've been very happy with those.
Here's an email from Dr. Valerie from Quebec. "A quick thanks to you for your books, podcasts, and ambassadorship for the sport. We feel your passion, and it helps us grow. I have three tips to share with the community.
One, recently, someone mentioned using nail clippers for cutting wire. It works fantastic and spares your [00:33:00.184] good scissors. As a surgeon, when I operate, each scissor has its dedicated purpose: one for tissue, one for thread, one for plastics, etc. So when it comes to tying, I bought myself a set of thread snippers. These little handheld cutters are used to quickly cut threads when sewing and are very cheap. You can buy a set of 3 for $10 Canadian. I use those to cut anything other than natural fibers and wire like thread, rubber, flat braid, which can [00:33:30.184] be quite tough, etc. Since I can just palm them, it's way faster than scissors and with practice, can be as precise. I keep my good scissors for cutting my natural fiber materials like furs and feathers. Plus, there is no heartache when you lose them or when they get dull.
Tip number two. I used to have continuing issues with applicators for my head cement, varnish, and super glue. I need the tip of the applicator to stay tiny and precise, so I bought a pack of eyeliner [00:34:00.404] brushes online. They have a stiff and very small tip. You can get 100 for $10 Canadian. And when they get too large from the accumulated adhesive, you can just throw them away in the recycling bin.
Number three, a special surgeon's tip for your first aid kit. Keep some super glue with you. Whenever you have a superficial cut or a chafing, let's say, from stripping madly all day on a saltwater trip, there's nothing more annoying than having to use a Band-Aid and wet working hands. [00:34:30.650] So just clean the wound with clear water to remove debris and blood, dry well, and put two to three layers of super glue on the cut or chafe. It will keep the area safe and dry and maintain your dexterity to keep fishing all week.
By the way, the same glue as the super glue for your fly tying is what we use in the OR. It's just 300 times the price because it's medical. If you're concerned and wanna get something from the pharmacy, just buy some Liquid Band-Aid. But watch out, that stuff [00:35:00.219] burns like crazy when you apply it, whereas the super glue does not."
Well, thank you so much, Dr. Valerie. Those are three great tips. I'm gonna get some of those thread snippers. But I have to tell you that the other day when I read your email, I ordered... I went online and ordered 100 of these eyeliner [00:35:30.230] applicators, eyeliner brushes, and they're fantastic. You're right. I got 10 of them for less than 10... Or I got 100 of them for less than $10. They got a really fine tip. It's slightly flexible but stiff.
And the one thing I urge people is make sure you look through the offering and get the really fine ones. There are some other ones that are, they're thicker. But these things are great, and they're one of the best additions to my fly-tying bench [00:36:00.039] because I've never thought that the dubbing needles that we use are really fine enough to add glue or add head cement to the head of like a small dry fly. And these things work great. And as you said, once they get too gunked up, they're disposable. You could clean them off too with acetone if you wanted to. I'm sure. But that is a great tip. I bought some. I took your advice, and I've been using them all week. So thank you for the tip.
And regarding [00:36:30.389] superglue, yeah, I always worried. I'd heard this before, but I always worried about putting something with a solvent like that into the interior of my body. But, you know, if doctors use it and doctors recommend it, I guess it's okay. So I'm about to head out on a fishing trip where I might just get some cuts from fly line in my fingers. I think I'm gonna take a bottle of my [00:37:00.139] fly-tying super glue with me. So thank you very much for those great tips.
Ed: Hi, Tom. This is Ed from Central Oregon. I have a couple of comments to lay on top of a podcast of yours that I listened to this week. I think you called it a recast with Rachel from Colorado talking about winter fly fishing.
Here in Central Oregon, we're on the East Side of the Cascades, and we're what they call a high desert. I think we're north...everything's north of 3,200 foot on up [00:37:30.309] and we're a fairly cold, dry climate, although we do get a decent amount of snow during the winter.
And I do fish one of our local spring creeks quite a bit in the winter, and it's 45 or less, you know, 42 to 44 degrees typically all year long. And I do wear the heated socks. My wife got me a pair, I think it was at Costco a couple of Christmases ago, and they're fantastic. They really do work, whether I'm standing [00:38:00.289] in 44-degree water or walking through snow in 25-degree or 23-degree temps. They're fantastic. There's four heat settings. I only put it on the second. I'm no Superman, but level two is plenty for my feet.
And I also wear fingerless wool gloves. I think most anglers know that wool is a good insulator even when it's wet. But I also wear elastic wristbands, sweatbands that you would see, like, basketball players wear. I get them at [00:38:30.139] local sporting goods stores. And I put the heated packs under the sweatband against my wrist, and it really does a phenomenal job of heating the blood going to your fingers. Even though my fingers are exposed, they do not get cold. I do keep a towel in my waders that I can wipe my hands off when they get wet when you're handling a fish.
But I just thought I would lay those on top of what Rachel had mentioned, and it's what works for me. I don't have any questions this week. If I did, we'd be taking up the whole podcast on what I [00:39:00.150] need to know to make me a better angler, but keep doing what you do. You're, obviously, a great resource for the community of anglers, and love hearing you every week. Thanks.
Tom R.: Well, thanks, Ed. Those are great tips, and I've never... Honestly, I've never tried putting those hand warmer packets under my wrist, under a wristband, but I'm gonna try that. It sounds amazing, and it does make sense that you allow more blood to flow to your fingertips. [00:39:30.010] So I'm gonna try that and appreciate your tips adding to our comfort when the weather is a little colder out there when we're fly fishing.
All right. That is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Dave about "Cicada Madness."
My guest today is Dave Zielinski. And Dave is an expert on cicada fishing. In fact, [00:40:00.050] wrote a book called "Cicada Madness," which is kind of the bible for chasing these crazy bugs. And it's great to be doing a podcast on cicadas for real because a number of years ago, I did a...some of you may remember, an April Fools podcast on cicadas, and it was totally silly and off the wall and absolutely untrue. And I got some complaints, actually, on it. [00:40:30.124] People got upset because they wanted a podcast and advice on cicada fishing, and instead they got Shawn Combs and myself making silly theories about cicadas. And then, Dave, hopefully, we're gonna learn whether it's cicada or cicada, right? How to say?
Dave: I'm pretty sure it's cicada.
Tom R.: Cicada. Okay.
Dave: Yeah.
Tom R.: So I said it right the first time around. [00:41:00.065] Okay. All right. Cicada. You're sure about that now?
Dave: You know, at least the circles I hang out with, it's cicada.
Tom R.: Okay. All right. So before we start the podcast, tell people a little bit about your book and what they might learn in it.
Dave: Yeah. Thanks, Tom. So "Cicada Madness" is the name of the book. Appreciate your kind words, Tom. But you are right. [00:41:30.114] You said kind of Bible about it, but there has been no other dedicated resource for fly fishing and cicadas, and that kind of prompted me a little bit to write that book.
In the book, you would learn all about the life history or life cycle of the bug, which is very important to being able to effectively fish them or fish around them. You will learn [00:42:00.195] a lot of patterns, fly patterns, techniques. Timing is everything with cicadas. You can be too early. You can be too late. So all the things around cicadas and how different fish react to them, how fish figure it out. As you know, it's a land insect. It's a terrestrial. So it's only in the water by accident. So the book kinda covers it end to end. And where to find annual-type cicadas, which [00:42:30.224] occur a little bit every year, some years heavier than others. And then periodical cicadas, which is big where I live in the eastern half of the United States. And these are cicadas that happen on 13 and 17-year cadences.
Tom R.: Okay. So let's start with their life cycle and then talk about where someone might encounter both annual and [00:43:00.320] periodic. Periodical or periodic?
Dave: Yeah. Periodical.
Tom R.: Periodical cicadas. And then we'll talk about techniques and timing and fly patterns. How does that sound to you?
Dave: Sounds great.
Tom R.: And I'm gonna be listening carefully because of the only cicada fall, I guess, not a... Well, I guess it's a hatch, but a fall that I have ever experienced was the annuals on the Green River in Utah. So I'm pretty, [00:43:30.219] not very up on cicadas and cicada fishing. So, I'm gonna be listening intently.
Dave: Awesome.
Tom R.: So let's start.
Dave: Well, you'll have to come fish with me this summer, but we can totally start with life cycle and talk about annuals and the difference between annuals and periodicals.
Tom R.: Okay. Great.
Dave: Yeah.
Tom R.: So let's do it.
Dave: And I too have experienced the great fishing on the Green River with the annual cicadas up there.
Tom R.: Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty good stuff.
Dave: So really awesome. Great experience. [00:44:00.170] All right. So, let's start there with annuals and periodicals. So annual cicadas are, they occur every year, and there's about...worldwide, there's about 3,000 different varieties of these cicadas. So they're all kind of the same kind of form factor. It's a bulky bug with two pairs of wings. The anatomy is the same. The males of any kind of cicada is the only one [00:44:30.010] that can make a noise or sing, and they do that to attract a mate.
The annuals occur every year. The magnitude of the emergence varies, but there are bugs present every year. So if you think of if you've ever heard of like grasshopper plagues, some years, you know, farmers are really worried that, you know, all our crops are gonna get eaten because there's supposed to be this grasshopper plague. Well, it's kind of like the same thing with annual cicadas. Some years you have huge numbers [00:45:00.360] of them, and some years you don't. But you'll still see some around. And across the entire globe, there are annual cicadas everywhere.
The ones you mentioned on the Green, there's actually two varieties there. And one is a very small cicada of the...it's a member of the Platypedia family. And the large one, the one that they refer to as the mondos, is Okanagana magnifica. [00:45:30.155] Both are desert cicadas there. It just so happened that we dammed a small creek in the desert and made a trout fishery where cicadas live. And these are desert-type cicadas that love shrubbery and small trees, and they just so happen that we kinda have the perfect storm there with a Blue Ribbon or Gold Medal trout river and native cicadas that inhabit the [00:46:00.085] area.
Tom R.: Now, I've never, that I can remember, seen cicadas on any other trout stream. Annual cicadas. So what kinda... Is it all desert habitat that the annuals live in?
Dave: No. No. We have them everywhere. So we have... And I think you're in Vermont, and I'm in Southwest Pennsylvania. But all over United States and into Canada, there's three or four different species. They're everywhere. So annual cicadas, [00:46:30.735] we typically see, say, in our neck of the woods, we're gonna see late June, July, all the way through the frosts that start in late September and October, we're gonna have annual cicadas here.
Now, it's several different varieties that sometimes they call or refer to the dog day cicada for the dog days of summer. You'll hear them everywhere. We fish a lot of them [00:47:00.315] for smallmouth bass, and sometimes carp eat them. But we do pretty well fishing those type of bugs where we hear them, and that's the key. And that's the key with a lot of this stuff, and we could talk in more detail on that, is listening is one of the sounds... Listening is one of the signs or sounds that tell you that cicadas are present.
Tom R.: Yeah. We don't have any in Vermont, by the way.
Dave: Okay.
Tom R.: Where I grew up in Upstate New York, we had them, and I'd hear them [00:47:30.085] every summer, but I have never heard one, at least where I live. And I'm fairly low altitude in Southern Vermont, so I don't think... There may be some places, like along the Connecticut River, where it's a little bit warmer, but I don't think we have them here.
Dave: Yeah. I'll have to look at that. I'll have to look into that. Those places have some varieties. They just may not be very prevalent or very localized. And that's another thing with cicadas. You find them where they are. [00:48:00.579] It's going to be very habitat-focused, and they will be kinda isolated where you find them. The distributions are wide, but they may be spotting in areas and prolific in others.
Tom R.: Okay. So there may be some places in Vermont where they are, and I just haven't heard them.
Dave: Yeah.
Tom R.: Okay.
Dave: Yeah. So periodical cicadas is the other variety, which is super unique to...really unique to the United States. It's very strange that [00:48:30.059] the periodical cicada, Magicicadas family, only occurs east of the Mississippi in within United States borders...
Tom R.: Really?
Dave: ...which is the craziest thing ever. Yeah. And periodical cicadas, they're 13 or 17-year cycles, and the difference is they're predictable. So when it's their year, when it's a year for what we call a brood [00:49:00.139] when it's a year of a specific brood of cicada, make no mistake, it's going to happen, and it's going to be prolific. There's going to be millions and millions of bugs. Up to a million an acre in some studies that have been done by Penn State University.
Tom R.: Wow.
Dave: Really intense. And these are some of the ones that we target. And a lot of what my book is about is kinda finding these periodical cicada [00:49:30.119] emergencies near water at the right time when fish find them and, you know, are hunting these bugs. And it's a 2-inch-long bug, so it is in my circles, it's the top game of dry fly fishing.
Tom R.: Yeah. And last year was a big year, right? Last year was a big year for periodic.
Dave: It was. Yeah. So if you read the news and/or fished or saw or whatever, last year was a pretty crazy year because it was... So I mentioned these things called broods. [00:50:00.985] It was two broods of cicadas coemerged in one year.
Tom R.: Oh, boy.
Dave: So a 17-year and a 13-year that if you take those two numbers and you multiply them, it's 221. So those broods will only occur every 221 years together, which is crazy, which... So it means this. It meant for us last year, and I chased [00:50:30.184] it around. I think the number was seven different states. But you had a probably 20-state opportunity to find those bugs somewhere.
Tom R.: Wow. And...
Dave: And, yeah, what's cool about it is you could kind of plan your time to start in the very, very deep south where it's warmer earlier, right? And catch the emergence there. [00:51:00.164] And then as time goes on, you can make your way all the way to the north. And in this case, it was to the very, very bottom of Wisconsin. And fish cicadas nearly from the end of April all the way to almost July.
Tom R.: And I have a couple friends who followed them around, and they caught everything from catfish to gar to carp.
Dave: Yeah, we did too. That's what we did. We even chased them from, oh, [00:51:30.025] I think we started somewhere in Carolinas and then ended up in North Georgia and Tennessee and Missouri and Illinois, Indiana, all over the place, and did the same thing. Gar or grass carp up to 50 pounds. That was crazy. It was a great time.
Tom R.: Now, so I missed it because I didn't travel to chase those things. Will we have any kind of emergence this year?
Dave: Yes. So what's great about this... [00:52:00.045] So, and since this is some of the, kind of the...this is what has been kinda driving my fly fishing for the last 30 years or so, is chasing these things around. So way, way back in the '90s, I stumbled across one of these emergences when I was at college at Penn State University and learned about this bug, and that, you know, in 17 years, it's gonna happen again. And then in 17 more years, it's gonna happen again.
So without telling [00:52:30.005] you how old I am, this will be the third time that the brood XIV occurs, and that's this year. It's gonna start sometime in the very late part of May, all through June. This will be in about 13 states, including Pennsylvania. So for you, not a terribly far drive. And it will [00:53:00.235] stretch all the way to Tennessee, very Northern Georgia, and then kind of a lot of states in between. So, yeah, we get two years in a row...
Tom R.: Wow.
Dave: ...of chasing these bugs.
Tom R.: And how long, you know, once an emergence starts in a given location, how long will that last?
Dave: Yeah. The whole life cycle for, say, a periodical cicada is gonna be four to five weeks. [00:53:30.385] And, you know, that doesn't mean necessarily the fishing is exactly the same when you see your first bug. So I'll explain that a little bit.
So, again, I said in the beginning here, cicada is a land animal, right? It's a terrestrial insect. Comes out of the ground. And it'll come out of the ground, it spent, let's say, 17 years underground as a nymph crawling around. And what they do is they suck on tree [00:54:00.155] roots for their nutrition.
In the spring of the 17th year, they start to make their way to the surface. And it's a synchronized emergence, which means they all kind of start to happen over the course of a couple days, and all of the bugs are out of the ground. And the key factor there is a soil depth of 8 inches and a soil temperature of 64 degrees triggers that emergence. So most like our rivers, right?
To trigger a mayfly hatch, often it's the time of year, we know what bug's gonna happen, and we're watching water temps. And then it hits that magic number, and it's the right time of year, and everything just kind of aligns, and the bugs prolifically emerge. Very similar with our cicadas, but it's a ground temperature of 64 degrees at 8 inches.
So over the course of two to three days, in the evenings, in the night [00:55:00.090] and overnight, these cicadas crawl out of the ground. They crawl up a tree or a vertical surface, a fence, a brick wall, whatever, and then they morph into the winged insect. So if you watch this process and if you've ever seen a stonefly crawl out on a rock and then come out of its exoskeleton and rungroll its wings. It does the same exact thing.
So now these bugs are kind of reaching [00:55:30.510] peak emergence over the next couple days, and they kinda just hang in the trees quietly and kinda just they fully develop into the adult. And what that means is, like, their blood flows through their wing veins. They start to gain the ability to fly. They gain the ability to make noise and sing. And then their whole endgame is find a mate. Females lay eggs, everybody dies, and their offspring [00:56:00.920] kinda carry on.
Now, in order for fish to find them, so there's a couple things. So first of all, you need to have big woods near waterways. And you need to be within the distribution of the cicadas that are going to emerge that year. Now, my book has all these maps of the brood distributions on where they are, but it's still a lot of you gotta kinda go and [00:56:30.070] scout and go and see.
So the way to do it is you get these maps, and there's lots of information online as well. And you get these maps, and you kinda overlay it to, "Hey, there's a great river or a great trout stream or, you know, warm water fishery that flows right where this cicada brood should be." You go late May and you go early June and you look around and you look for signs.
The bug crawls out of the ground. It leaves behind a hole [00:57:00.250] about the size of a dime. And you're gonna see hundreds of them, sometimes thousands of them. Then you're gonna look at a tree and you're gonna see these little exoskeletons, empty shells basically clung to tree bark. And then you're obviously gonna look for the adult insect, or you're gonna hear the males making a lot of noise. And it is unmistakable noise when it happens. It's as [00:57:30.030] loud as the lawnmower when there's a congregation. Yeah.
Tom R.: So how did they get in the water, and why are they so important?
Dave: Yeah. So finding them near water. So find these big woods near water within the distribution in the year that they're gonna happen at the right time of year, which is gonna be May, June.
So how do they get in the water? Well, so periodical cicadas, why they're so prolific is [00:58:00.519] partly of kind of nature doing its thing with predator satiation. It's the same reason why there's millions of mayflies in a spinner fall. The birds can't get them all. The fish can't get them all. The numbers ensure the survival of the species. So because of that, they don't have to have really great predator evasion. They don't have to be very evolved in their abilities because the [00:58:30.150] sheer numbers of bugs ensures the survival.
So they're very clumsy flyers. So periodical cicadas, and if you contrast this with annual cicadas, annual cicadas, there's always less numbers if you compare it to periodicals. They're much more agile flyers, and they can get away from predators, and they are very quick. If you hear one or see one in a tree in your front yard, and I [00:59:00.099] challenge you to try and catch it by hand because you're gonna have a hard time. But if you see a periodical cicada, you can just walk right up and grab it and eat it yourself. It's no big deal.
Tom R.: How do they taste? How do they taste, Dave?
Dave: They're not bad, you know? Like, we sit around a campfire a lot, you know, and talk about the taste and textures of cicadas some nights when we're fishing. They don't taste... They're not very offensive. They're not bad. They're very kinda [00:59:30.550] nutty and woodsy and earthy.
Tom R.: Do you deep fry them when you're in the South, or do you just, you know, eat them raw?
Dave: No. I just eat them raw.
Tom R.: Okay. All right.
Dave: On the river or on the lake. Usually, if somebody dares you, you know, "Eat one. You know, get it on video." So how do they get in the water? Is they're not great flyers. So what'll typically happen is the whole purpose again is the mating. So males start calling [01:00:00.074] and what happens is a couple females fly over to those mating calls. And when the females start coming over, more males come. And what you end up with is an area. And it could be an acre. It could be a grove of trees. It could be a whole entire hillside is now a congregation of bugs.
And where you have them flying over water, they're not great flyers. In wind, they're terrible. They'll get knocked down. So they just [01:00:30.295] end up in the water by accident. And then once they're in the water, there is no way they can get themselves out naturally. If they flow into a logjam or rocks or grass, they can cling on and maybe crawl out. But for all intents and purposes, a cicada in the water is a dead cicada because something's gonna eat it, or it's just gonna drown, die, and run out of energy, and that's that.
Tom R.: And why do fish like them so much?
Dave: Yes. Why [01:01:00.244] do fish like them so much? It's the free meal. It's everything in the... It's not just fish either. It's everything in the ecosystem kinda gets turned on its head for cicadas.
I mentioned grass carp, for example. Last summer, we found just schools upon schools of grass carp, which are notoriously difficult to catch otherwise because they're primarily [01:01:30.454] vegetarian. It's hard to imitate what they eat. It's hard to trigger them to eat at times of year, but we found schools and schools of grass carp that were hunting cicadas.
Tom R.: Wow.
Dave: And it was the free meal. And to have grass carp that I dare say were easy to catch, they would swim over from 6, 8 feet away and just rush a fly and without any hesitation, inhale it. [01:02:00.034] Same thing for common carp too, which is crazy because the common carp is a bottom feeder.
Tom R.: Yeah. Usually. Yeah.
Dave: It is usually a bottom feeder, and it's designed for it, right? Its eyes are in a position for it to look downward. And they figure it out, and they come off the bottom, and they hover under the surface looking for cicadas. So it's the whole free meal thing. And like I said, everything in the ecosystem eats [01:02:30.034] them. We've seen snakes and turtles and everything else. I've even seen deer eat them. Penn State has done studies on, you know, the impact to wildlife populations after a periodical cicada emergence and found that turkey populations have a boom year afterwards. So it's just a big injection to the entire environment, this biomass of food.
Tom R.: And I imagine one cicada has got a lot [01:03:00.295] of caloric value in it, right? It's a big hunk of meat.
Dave: Yeah. It's a lot of wings, you know, and it's a big chunk of meat as well, especially the females, like during the peak of mating because they're full of eggs, and they would... I've done even like... I've even weighed, like, males and females, and there's a difference. So, like, the female definitely packs in a little bit extra.
Tom R.: [01:03:30.204] So you've studied them. You've eaten them. You've weighed them. I won't ask you what else you've done.
Dave: Yeah. This has been the thing. You know, the first time I encountered it, it was... You know, and it's funny. I do a lot of, like, speaking events and a lot of shows and things, and you get people that walk up to you, and their eyes light up with excitement, and they tell you a story. And you just [01:04:00.125] sit back and you'd be like, "This guy gets it." And I can't explain it to anybody who hasn't experienced it how, you know, you'll hear things people say, "It was, you know, the best day of dry fly fishing I've ever had. You know, I never caught more fish. I've never caught more bigger fish in the middle of the day," and this and that. And it's like, "Yep. Yep. Yep. I understand. I know. That's why we chase it."
Tom R.: So let's talk a little bit about, [01:04:30.855] you know, fishing techniques. So let's say you've found a brood. They're active. They're getting in the water. Fish are eating them. What's next?
Dave: Yeah. I mean, if you found fish eating them, you just fish. So we handle lakes and streams a little bit differently.
Tom R.: Okay. Good.
Dave: So let's take lakes first and then talk about streams and rivers and things.
Tom R.: All right.
Dave: So as I said a little bit earlier, [01:05:00.045] where they are, they're very prolific. So you may put your boat out in a lake, and you hear, you listen out in the distance, and you can hear screaming on one hillside. So you run over there and you find the shoreline, and on lakes, you're gonna find trees. Or where you're gonna find trees on the shoreline, you're gonna find the fish on the shoreline.
Sometimes you'll find them out cruising, you know, further away. Those are kind of fun fish you can kinda [01:05:30.215] headhunt, and you'll see, like, rises and things like that of a fish that's hunting. But for most of our lake stuff, it's from a boat, and you're cruising a shoreline, and you're actually looking for fish. You've already found the bugs. They're screaming. They're flying around. You're seeing some on the water, but now you're actually looking for targets, and it's not that hard to find.
We don't ever really blind fish on lakes. It's you [01:06:00.155] could set up in a spot on a point, and you'll see, you know, whatever is in there, right? You'll see bass cruising around a corner, and you'll see them against the bottom, or you'll see them right under the surface. The gar you mentioned, you'll see them cruising almost with their backs out of the water. You'll see catfish will make very splashy rises and then go deep. And somehow they can see from a distance below them, I believe, or above them, because you don't often [01:06:30.030] see them hovering.
Carp are a dead giveaway, especially on sunny days. You'll see, you know, the gold backs of carp in pods from, you know, 3 to 20 fish just cruising. And sometime, you know, you just cast a fly, and you'll have sometimes six or seven fish come chase that fly down. It can be really great.
In streams and rivers, so if you're wading on a stream, you know, I actually fish a couple different ways depending on the water type. [01:07:01.250] I'll walk straight downstream on a wadable creek that's, you know, waist deep or less, and I'll walk straight down in the middle, walk downstream, and fish both banks. And I'll use a 5- or 6-weight and a cicada pattern. There's no typical need for a tippet measured in X. You know, use 10 pound or 12 pound or whatever. And people think, like, "Oh, you gotta slap [01:07:30.150] it down." Yeah. I don't find that. I think just a normal cast and let it land naturally. Fish that are keyed on cicadas are hunting them. So don't be surprised if they come from a long distance to smash that fly, and they often do it without hesitation.
If you fish a high pressured water, like you mentioned the Green. Green, you're fishing from a boat typically, and you are kind of blind fishing in a river. And [01:08:00.280] that's a key difference is not normally targeting rising fish or headhunting fish in a river because they're not typically set up like they are for caddis or a mayfly hatch. They're hunting. So they're looking for cicadas that happen in the water randomly. So they're on the move. They're usually hanging out in an area and running upstream, downstream where they feel, and I mean feel with the lateral line, they feel that bug hit the water, that huge bug [01:08:30.060] hit the water before they see it. So you're kinda blind casting, so you're mimicking that.
If you're on a pressured water like the Green or somewhere where you have lots of traffic, lots of boat traffic, we've seen those fish come up and inspect flies. And in that case, you know, it's gonna take a bunch of different patterns. Maybe they're counting legs. I don't know. But on our periodical ones, I think it's such an opportunistic, [01:09:02.805] you know, time. Think about it. It's June typically, and in our eastern waters where this mostly occurs, we've kinda capped off our dry fly season with green drakes. And like, this year coming up, we're gonna have green drakes, and we are gonna immediately have cicadas right on the tail of it.
Tom R.: Oh, boy.
Dave: Yeah. So it's a bonus. And, you know, those fish, I think they're just, they're not [01:09:30.020] very picky. It can happen. You can try different patterns. You can try slightly submerging patterns, like really low-riding floating patterns or even sunken patterns work. But with so many targets and so many opportunities, I'm really just fishing the dry fly most of the time.
Tom R.: Okay. Now, important question. I think it's important. Twitch or no twitch?
Dave: [01:10:00.595] You know what? I don't find that twitching is necessary except when we're lake fishing and we're chasing carp, which is one of the funnest games there is.
Tom R.: I would imagine.
Dave: The carp is typically kinda hovering under the surface, and you splat a fly down, and they actually sometimes have a hard time finding it just because of their physiology of where their eyes are. [01:10:30.345] And sometimes they'll swim right by your fly, and you think, like, he ignored it. And then you say, "Wait a minute." And I will pull the fly. I won't necessarily, like, twitch it for any kind of action, but really just pull the fly to get their attention. Pull it 4 or 5 inches, and they turn their head and their mouth's open. And then they're like, "There it is. I knew it was here somewhere. There it is. I mean, literally."
So, yeah, I don't typically find... And in moving [01:11:00.279] water, I think the twitch is, like, less important as well. You're gonna get eats. You know, I don't do super long drifts typically if we're talking about trout. It's a lot of drop it. If nothing happened in a few foot drift, pick it up, drop it again, and just cover the water because those fish are gonna be out, you know, where they're lying, waiting for the reaction of the bug hitting the water.
Tom R.: Okay. Okay. All right. [01:11:30.814] So, we've talked about rods. We've talked about leaders and tippets. Flies.
Dave: Flies. Yeah, so I mentioned, I did mention, you know, using a 5 or 6-weight for trout and stuff. I do definitely use a 7 or 8-weight for lake and carp. And I actually prefer glass rods for that stuff, for big fish. Nothing fights like glass. Nothing lifts like glass. Your break-offs just don't happen when you're fishing glass. The Superfine Glass [01:12:00.135] rods are great. There's other glass rods are great as well.
But for flies, yeah, my book has 60 patterns of different flies. Are 60 different patterns necessary? Probably not.
Tom R.: Good.
Dave: But we're fly fishers, and we like to match the hatch. And actually, some of the book is a little bit of kinda tribute to a lot of the names, a lot of the guide flies, a lot of the really [01:12:30.345] kinda fundamental big bug patterns that have been around for a while. So I collected patterns from a lot of really, you know, big names and key folks that have been doing this a long time, kind of as a collection. So it's a cool reference for cicada bugs. But what do you need? You need if I'm fishing for carp in warm water species, I'm using the number four.
Tom R.: Okay. Size four.
Dave: And I'm using a light wire hook, like a stinger hook. [01:13:00.534] A Gamakatsu B10S or something equivalent is a great platform for a cicada bug. If I'm fishing for trout, I'm gonna downsize. You can still tie the big chunky pattern, but I'm gonna downsize because a lot of our trout waters, at least where I fish, we got, you know, an average fish that's gonna be, you know, 12 to 14, 16 inches.
That big number four hook, you're gonna catch some fish in the tongue, which is [01:13:30.095] a death sentence. You're gonna potentially hurt some gills and things like that. So I'll actually go down to, like, a number six or even a number eight, and I'll just use kind of a standard streamer hook. Whatever your flavor is. Something on, like, the kinda medium to heavy wire.
And I'll tie the same patterns. For patterns, you need black foam, orange thread, and you need anything you want for a wing. Any of [01:14:00.154] the synthetics are good, like EP Fibers, or Zelon even, Antron yarn, and elk hair. And I use elk hair a lot because I think it feels the same. And I urge y'all to do this is when you have a cicada in your hand, you put it in your mouth, and you're like, "Those wings are something. They feel like wings." And I think a lot of our soft fiber materials don't feel like wings. [01:14:30.039] But elk hair, you know, with stiff fibers and things like that, it feels a whole lot like wings.
Tom R.: Now it sounds like you've eaten elk hair too, as well as cicadas.
Dave: I have. Yeah. I've put both in my mouth to take the taste test to tell the difference. You're right.
Tom R.: All right. You're dedicated, Dave.
Dave: I'm kind of a weirdo. I don't know. I fully admit it. So you need some kind of wing. And, you know, there's debates. You hear a lot of debates, "Oh, they only ate the ones with the wings that were, you know, [01:15:00.020] splayed out." I never really subscribed to that. I've seen everything. I've seen them upside down, splayed out, wings folded back naturally. It doesn't really seem to matter.
Yeah, and then some sort of indicator. Now when you're designing flies and you're designing patterns for this, you're talking about a big bug, so you're talking a lot of foam. And a lot of foam sometimes means that [01:15:30.199] that fly is floating really high in the water, and I actually don't like that. So you need something. This is kinda counterintuitive, but you can add lead to your dry fly to sink it a little bit. You want that bug sitting in the film of the water. I like to see just the indicator.
I want that bug sitting in the water because those fish will...you'll get better hookups, you'll get more hookups, and less [01:16:00.239] of the "I pulled it away from the fish because it didn't have it." They tend to push a fly out of the way. So a bigger fish, when it rises, will sometimes push the water. It will actually bump the fly out of the way and almost simulate like a miss. And if you have that fly sitting in the film, kinda low in the film, you'll definitely see an increase in hookups.
Tom R.: Well, the naturals probably sit fairly low because they're kind of a heavy, dense bug, right? [01:16:30.020] So they probably...
Dave: Absolutely.
Tom R.: ...don't ride very high.
Dave: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.
Tom R.: So, do you wanna just, maybe, for the fly tires here, talk through one of your favorite patterns, just what's in it and how to construct it?
Dave: Yeah, sure. Yeah. So, the pattern that I just kinda tie the most and have fished the most over 20-plus [01:17:00.140] years, it's actually in my book with a tutorial, full-color step by step. It's the 17-year itch cicada pattern. So it starts with the B10S hook, number six, number four. I use a 6/0 thread or 140 denier thread, and I use, specifically, UTC in a burnt orange color. And I use glue on every step. [01:17:30.329] So I'll coat my shank with the thread, and then I will take Zap-A-Gap medium on a bodkin. And I'll take that needle, and I will coat that hook shank and thread. That's gonna be my platform for the foam that comes next, and none of that fly will not twist on the hook. It will not get loose.
So I use a strip of black 2 millimeter foam that is cut into a strip about 3 inches long [01:18:00.314] and the width of it is the hook gap. So whatever size hook you're using, just kinda lay it up there, and you're gonna cut that strip about as wide as the hook gap.
And we're gonna start at the back of the fly, and we're gonna tie that in. And then we're gonna take a second piece that's exactly the same and tie it on top. So you're gonna kinda make like a sandwich of two pieces of foam. And then you're gonna make... You're gonna start at the back, and you're gonna make two body segments. [01:18:30.475] And then you're gonna tie your wing in. And in wing fiber, I'll use a little bit of Kreelex Flash.
I really like the UV orange Kreelex Flash that's out today as kind of an underwing. It really gives, like, the orange cast to the bug and the wing veins and things like that. It really looks right. And then elk hair on top of that, just a little clump of stacked elk hair. And I like elk hair very specifically from [01:19:00.085] the center of the back of a cow elk, and that would be called, like, the main backstrap area. Those are long fibers, and they're short tips, and they're very stout. Very stiff. So I like that. Same kind of hair you'd use for big stonefly patterns.
Tom R.: Yeah. Or stimulator or something.
Dave: Yeah. Stimulator hair. Exactly. Same kind of stuff. And then, there's a step there where after you tie that in, you kinda fold that foam back to make [01:19:30.104] a head. And you can use...you can put eyes on these things. Kinda part of the fun of fly tying is making patterns that look pretty real. I'll take a little cylinder or a little square, 2 millimeter by 2 millimeter square of red foam, and I'll sandwich it in when I fold that over to make little eyes and then trim that off. Or you can use sewing pins. You can buy sewing pins with little red plastic, like bead [01:20:00.125] ends.
Tom R.: Oh, right. Yeah.
Dave: They were great, and they were about the right size and everything, and they looked great as eyes. They sell a lot of flies.
Tom R.: I can see it's looking like a cool pattern.
Dave: Uh-huh. And then the last step is put an indicator. So whatever you like to see, you know, bright yellow, orange, something like that on top. And then legs come very last. I use, like, the silicone barred legs, specifically the Barred Sexi-Floss [01:20:30.185] in medium. And tie those on each side, trim it all up, and glue on everything. So glue in every little step that I mentioned there.
Take your needle. I don't apply glue from the bottle. I apply glue with my bodkin so that I can keep it really, like, thin and not glob all over the hook or the eye or anything like that.
Tom R.: Okay. All right.
Dave: That's that. Now you just fish it.
Tom R.: Sounds like a [01:21:00.024] great pattern. I wish I was gonna encounter some this year. I don't have any plans. I really need to revise my...
Dave: You ought to. Yeah. The thing about cicadas is, especially these periodical cicadas, is it's 17 years to the next one.
Tom R.: Yeah, I mean, there isn't...
Dave: Yeah, it's essentially like a sequential map of how old you are.
Tom R.: Yeah. There's not gonna be one in between?
Dave: Yeah. [01:21:30.340] So here's kind of a short list, right? So, 2021, we had brood X. 2022, we had no periodical. 2023, we had no periodical. 2024, we made up for lost time, and we had 2 broods at once. 2025, we have what's called brood XIV or brood 14. 2026, we have none again. And then 2027, we have brood 22 [01:22:00.149].
Tom R.: So they've actually...
Dave: And in 2020 we had cicadas.
Tom R.: These are 17-year?
Dave: So this year is a 17-year. 2027 is a 13-year.
Tom R.: A 13-year. Okay.
Dave: Yep.
Tom R.: All right.
Dave: And the key is you gotta travel around for it, right?
Tom R.: I know. I know.
Dave: That's it.
Tom R.: I know. But I do love carp fishing, and the idea of a carp chasing down a big bug is [01:22:30.630] pretty exciting.
Dave: Yeah. Yeah, I will tell you, Tom, that's my friends and I. That's our primary kinda draw is what this has become over the years, is finding lakes or systems with big carp, you know, over 20 pounds that are hunting down cicadas. And that's kinda what drives us every time. It's like...
Tom R.: I can imagine. Well, I got a friend in Tennessee who hit 'em last year on carp, and he told me about [01:23:00.069] some eye-popping experiences. Maybe I need to plan to go down there this summer.
Dave: You don't have to go that far. We'll have some in Pennsylvania, and I got a spot locked down with tarps.
Tom R.: Oh, okay. Maybe you'll be nice to me, and you'll tell me where it is.
All right, Dave. Well, that's been a great education in cicadas. I certainly learned a ton, and you got me now all excited about [01:23:30.039] changing my travel plans for the summer. So, I wanna thank you. And again, name of your book is "Cicada Madness," right?
Dave: Yep.
Tom R.: Is Stackpole a publisher for that one?
Dave: Yeah, a Stackpole book.
Tom R.: Stackpole. Yeah, okay.
Dave: It came out in 2023 in October, right in time for the 2024 kinda double emergence thing. Kind of planned it that way. [01:24:00.164] And you can find it anywhere. It's anywhere you can buy a book, you can find it.
Tom R.: Yeah, I've seen it. I know I think some Orvis stores have it, and I've seen it in fly shops. So, it's out there. And then, 17 years from now, you're gonna write another book, maybe?
Dave: No. I don't know. I don't know what's next. I have written a few articles. You know, there was a "Fly Fisherman" article last year that I did, and then a "Fly Tyer" article as well. But I got some other things in the works that are actually [01:24:30.154] not cicada-related, but kind of other fishing and steelhead fishing and things like that.
Tom R.: Maybe a cicada cookbook. How about that?
Dave: Cicada cookbook.
Tom R.: Yeah.
Dave: No. I think there's... It's funny. When this approaches, like, these big periodical emergences, they approach, you'll see all this stuff, like, pop up in the news feeds. It's, like, a slow news day. So, there's articles about cicada recipes. There's all this stuff.
Tom R.: [01:25:00.935] Might as well make use of them, right? A lot of protein hanging around.
Dave: Yeah.
Tom R.: All right, Dave. Well, I wanna thank you again for taking the time to discuss this with us today and really educate us on what to look forward to this year and how to take advantage of this. Appreciate it.
Dave: Thanks, Tom.
Tom R.: All right. I hope to talk to you soon, and I'll be calling you about that carp spot.
Dave: Yeah. [01:25:30.204] Sure thing.
Tom R.: Okay. Thanks a lot, Dave.
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at