Knotted Leaders, Furled Leaders, Braided Leaders—and Favorite Knots, with Brian Flechsig

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Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast. This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer, and my guest this week is Brian Flechsig of Mad River Outfitters in Ohio. You've probably seen a number of Brian's videos on YouTube, [00:00:30.398] which are excellent. He talks about products and techniques and all kinds of interesting things, and been wanting to get Brian on the podcast for a while, but he's a busy guy. Finally got a hold of him.
And what we're going to talk about today is leaders, but we're not going to just talk about leaders. We're also going to talk about knots, and I know knots always create some controversy amongst fly fishers. And it's interesting because [00:01:00.934] Brian has a different philosophy on leaders than I do. I'm kind of a knotless leader guy. I do modify them quite a bit, but I generally use knotless leaders from the package and then modify them.
Whereas Brian is a knotted leader guy, and he's going to talk specifically about knotted leaders for saltwater, bass fishing, things other than trout fishing, but also about some other trout fishing leaders. We're going to talk about [00:01:30.542] furled leaders, which I get a lot of questions about. We're also going to be talking about the extinct Orvis braided butt leaders, which are no longer available, but I've been asked about them before. So lots of stuff about leaders and knots and tippet material.
And a few weeks ago, I did a podcast with Josh Jenkins from Scientific Anglers about knotless leaders, and now we're going to talking a bit about [00:02:00.290] knotted leaders and how to create some formulas. And it's actually quite easy. I know that leaders are a confusing topic for a lot of you, but Brian explains it very succinctly, and I think you'll be pleased with what you learn on this podcast.
But before we talk to Brian, let's do the fly box. And the fly box is where you ask me questions or you pass on a tip. And if I think your question would be [00:02:30.767] interesting to other podcast listeners, I'll read it on the air and try to answer it. And if I think your tip is valuable to other fly fishers, then I'll read your tip as well. I get a lot of good tips from these tips that are shared in the fly box, so I appreciate you sending them along.
If you have a question or a tip for the fly box and you would like to send it to me, you can send it to my mailbox [00:03:00.749] at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. I read them all. I don't answer them all, but I do read them all. And if you're inclined to hear your voice on the air, then you could attach a voice file to your email. And that's what makes this podcast, I think, so successful is the interaction between myself and the listeners. And I really appreciate those. I'm so glad you're here today listening. [00:03:30.293]
And let's start with our first question. It's an email from Michael from Northville, Michigan. "As a relative newcomer to fly fishing, I find your podcast invaluable. Thank you. It's fairly easy to find information about the broad strokes of fly fishing, but your podcast scratches my itch for details and nuance that continue to make me a better angler. I only discovered your podcast a few months ago, and I love being able to binge-listen past episodes on my commutes.
On my last trip to [00:04:00.172] the north branch of the Au Sable River in Northern Michigan, my home trout water, I listened to 'Secrets to Tying Good Fishing Knots' with Robert Ketley. And I wonder why anglers overthink knots as much as they do. I mostly stick with the tried and true clinch knot and triple surgeons, and I've never had a knot fail or tippet break from a wind knot. Well, that episode jinxed me. And on my first hookup, I promptly lost my extra hopper dropper rig to what, for a brief moment, felt like the biggest fish I've encountered on a river. I [00:04:30.705] re-rigged and lost the nymph on that setup a short while later. Needless to say, I'm paying much more attention to the quality of the knots I tie.
On another podcast, I heard one of your guests talking about cutting off some of the shimmering pieces on their streamer when it felt like too much. And I've heard others talk about trimming wings and rubber legs. When does that make more sense to modify a fly rather than switch to a new fly or fish it differently? As a novice, I always assume [00:05:00.573] that I'm presenting it poorly, chose the wrong fly, or I'm casting to the wrong place. And I can't imagine having the confidence to assume I did all these things right, and I just need to alter the fly. When do you know you're casting to a good spot and presenting the fly well? How do you decide if you should change flies altogether, change sizes, change colors, or modify a fly?
On a related note, when you get to a fishing spot and don't see any bug activity, do you always start subsurface? Is it [00:05:30.353] usually futile to fish a dry fly when there aren't fish rising? And if you're fishing a nymph, why would you use a strike indicator when you could use a hopper and give the fish one more option? I know there are a lot of questions packed in here, and so I understand if you can't answer all of them at once. I appreciate your knowledge and insight immensely, and appreciate any you can share with me here."
Well, Michael, those are actually all good questions. I'm going to answer them all because these are questions [00:06:00.396] that I get frequently, and I'll try to answer them a little bit different than I have in the past. I don't think I've ever had the question of when do you know it's time to trim your fly or modify your fly? And you know what? You don't. You don't. Like most things in fly fishing, it's going to be a matter of guesswork and intuition, and maybe inspiration. [00:06:30.221]
And I can't tell you when it's time. I can tell you a couple of situations when it might be worthwhile. Say you're fishing a streamer and it has a lot of flash in it, and you're getting a lot of fish chasing the streamer, but not eating it, not connecting, just chasing it.
So they've obviously seen enough interest in that streamer to chase after it, but not to eat it, not to bite it. So in that situation, I might think, [00:07:00.467] "Well..." You could change flies, of course, but maybe it's the last streamer you got left or maybe you don't feel like tying another knot. So you say, "Well, maybe it's too much flash. Maybe the flash is putting them off." So you cut off the flash and see what happens. You could tie on another fly, or you could modify it. Maybe the fly is too long. Maybe you can cut... Maybe it's got a long marabou tail, and maybe the fish are not connecting. So maybe you need to cut a little bit of that [00:07:30.503] marabou tail off.
And in the situation with dry flies, let's say you're fishing a high-floating dry fly like a standard classic Adams, and the fish are sipping and they're not really smashing the flies on the surface, but they're sipping them. And so you might think, "Well, maybe they're taking an emerger or a spinner or something that's lower in the surface film where they don't really have to chase it like they would [00:08:00.441] a fluttering mayfly on the surface."
So you can take that Adams and take a pair of scissors and cut all the hackle underneath the fly. This is standard upright winged Adams I'm talking about here, not a parachute. So you might want to trim all the hackle flush with the shank of the hook so that the fly rides lower in the surface film and the fish can see the body of the fly as they would when there's, say, an emerger or [00:08:30.939] a spinner on the water.
Sometimes, maybe you're fishing an elk hair caddis, and again, the fish are sipping the caddis flies and not smashing them. You might want to, and I've done this many times, you might want to trim all the hackle off the bottom of the fly and maybe shorten the wing a little bit to make it look more like an emerging caddis fly instead of an adult. And there are lots of other ways you can modify a fly, but it's just one alternative to [00:09:00.345] changing flies. And again, you never know exactly what. That's why I think we love fly fishing, is we get to experiment and play around and see if we can solve a puzzle.
Now, your second question, you get to a fishing spot, you don't see any bug activity. Do you always start subsurface? Well, not always. Maybe if it's early in the season and the water's cold and the water's fast, yeah, it's probably [00:09:30.493] not a wise idea to fish a dry fly if you don't see any fish rising.
But if you're later in the season and the water's low and clear and the fish can see stuff on the surface and maybe it's windy and there are grasshoppers or beetles or ants or just standard houseflies, any kind of bugs falling in the water, those fish might be on the lookout for something on the surface. And also, later in the season, there aren't as many [00:10:00.454] nymphs underwater because a lot of the nymphs have already hatched, and what nymphs are left are the ones that were born this year, and they're really teeny-tiny and might not interest the fish.
So if it's a good water temperature, let's say it's between 50 degrees and 65 degrees, and the water's relatively clear, you can fish a dry fly blind without seeing any rises, and you might have the opportunity [00:10:30.481] to take a fish on a dry fly. But again, early season, cold water usually doesn't work as well.
And then your third question, which is kind of part of this last question, fishing a nymph, why would you use a strike indicator when you could use a hopper and give the fish more options? Here's how I do it. If the water is really fast and high and cold, and I need to get deep, and I need to fish a couple [00:11:00.666] of big nymphs with big tungsten beads on them, or maybe even split shot if I'm daring. And those kind of things really won't be suspended on a dry fly, and you're probably not going to see much dry fly activity anyway. So that's when I use an indicator.
But you are absolutely right. Most of the season, when the water's fairly low and clear after spring runoff or if there wasn't a thunderstorm recently [00:11:30.340] and the water went up, a dry fly is often a better indicator. And you have the option of maybe catching a fish on your hopper or other high-floating dry fly.
But basically, if I know that that dry fly is going to sink with the nymphs that I have attached below it, then I'm going to use an indicator. And of course, it always happens. It happened to me very recently when I was fishing a river in Spain, [00:12:00.696] actually, and the guy had me put on an indicator. And I'm typically a dry dropper guy, but I put on an indicator, and I had two big fish take the indicator. And, of course, I couldn't hook them.
And then when I put on a dry dropper, I didn't get another fish come up. So anyway, but if I had had a big dry on there, I might have caught those two fish. So yeah, most of the time, I will fish dry dropper as long as I don't have really heavy [00:12:30.292] stuff there.
Gordon: Hi, Tom. My name's Gordon. I'm a beginner fly fisherman from North Carolina, but right now I'm going to school up in North Dakota. There aren't too many trout fishing opportunities around here, but there are a few small streams stocked with rainbows that I like to check out in my free time.
My question for you has to do with how you usually start fishing a stream. When I go out, I usually hike as far downstream as I can, but then wait upstream while casting upstream. I know trout usually face into the current waiting for food, and it feels easier for me [00:13:00.278] as a beginner to get a better drift this way.
But recently, while I was reading a book by John Gierach, he mentioned that he prefers fishing downstream. He said it can be easier to get a drag-free drift and that the trout see the fly first instead of the line. So I was wondering what you prefer. When would you choose to fish downstream instead of upstream, or is it more of a personal preference thing?
To add on to that, when you're done fishing and heading back towards where you started, do you keep fishing on the way back, or do you usually just wait out, figuring you've already spooked most of the fish? Thank you so much [00:13:30.506] for everything you do for this sport. Your podcast and books have been a tremendous help for me as a beginner. Take care.
Tom: So Gordon, first of all, I know John Gierach did a lot of small stream fishing, and I doubt if he always fished downstream because nearly any savvy small stream angler, in particular, is going to fish upstream. It just works better. But there are times when maybe you have to fish downstream, or you just feel like [00:14:00.346] fishing downstream. And yeah, that'll work, too, but you have to stay a lot further away from the water and from the fish. You have to make longer casts because the fish have a better chance of seeing you.
So when you're fishing upstream, if your leader is long enough, the fish aren't going to see your fly line anyway. And once your fly is drifting over the place your fly landed, you might as well just pick up and cast [00:14:30.243] again. So the fish isn't going to see your fly line. Fish should never see your fly line, actually, wherever you're fishing. And again, if you're fishing upstream and you're generally making fairly short casts and your fly line isn't drifting over very much of the water, but anything between you and where that fly line landed, you can assume it's probably water that's not going to be worthwhile fishing.
So yeah, you can fish downstream [00:15:00.505] if you want, but I think you're going to be better off fishing upstream unless the water is really dirty or really deep, then in that case, you can probably get away with fishing downstream. But only if river is wide enough that you can make a downstream cast, because you don't want to... You can make a direct upstream cast when fishing small streams, but making a direct downstream cast is tough. You have to throw a lot of [00:15:30.620] slack to get a decent drift.
And if you're across from the fish in a wider river, yeah, then fishing downstream, you can get away with it because you can make a cast to the far bank. And fish against the far bank on a river that's 60 feet wide are probably not going to be spooked by you. But if the stream is 10 feet wide, you're going to have to stay further away.
And then, regarding fishing back [00:16:00.494] downstream, if you've already fished up through it, again, depends on the width of the stream. If the stream is really narrow, now you've probably waded through everything that was decent, and the fish are going to take a while to settle down and resume feeding again. And I don't know how long that is, but I do know 5, 10, 15, 20 minutes or even an hour might not be enough for those fish to settle down. They might still be spooked. So what I do is I park my car at [00:16:30.519] the upstream end where I'm going to get out of the river, and then I walk down and fish back up. That usually works pretty well.
Here's an email from Bruno in the mountains in the province of Quebec. "I'm new to fly fishing. First of all, I can humbly say that I am versed in the art of spinners and double nymph rig on a traditional pole and float rig, and I want to get into the art of fly fishing, tying in tenkara. So here are my questions for you, Tom. The [00:17:00.677] house I bought comes with an access to a river."
Bruno mentioned the river here, but I'm not going to mention it because I don't want to hotspot his river. "And a stretch of the river with all the possible structures you could wish. Small native brookies, some rainbows, and browns. After getting used to this spot, I realized there is little to no angler pressure. Heck, maybe me and my occasional visiting buddy are the only ones hitting it.
Getting into fly fishing, I will obviously [00:17:30.492] go even more frequently to the spot. I usually go once or twice a week. And I was wondering if there's some sort of a cool-down period off time in between my visits to the spot, so that the fish don't get used to the weird two-legged bearded things, frequently harassing visits, or the pressure makes them say, 'The hell with this.'
Really enjoy the show and going through it like crazy. And I can say you seem like a true and kind-hearted down-to-earth gentleman. And I appreciate all the efforts you put into conservation [00:18:00.761] and the precious, well-spoken advice you give to us, new to fly fishing. You truly make it less intimidating and welcoming. Now I know why the fly fishers I spoke to refers to you as the trout whisperer. Thanks again, Tom. Much love from Canada. And may the wind carry your fly wherever you please, eh."
Well, Bruno, thank you very much for those kind words. That's very nice to hear. Regarding that stream in your [00:18:30.214] backyard, I think that you probably need a cool-down period, just because if you fish through a spot, the fish are going to be spooked, and they're probably not going to respond to things that well the very next day. But I think if you give it a day or two to cool down, it should be fine.
Now, here's what's going to happen, though. Those fish don't get much pressure. They're not used to seeing people. They're not used to being fished over and maybe [00:19:00.604] caught and released. So they're going to be fairly easy to catch at first. As you fish that, they're going to get harder. I don't think they're going to move. If a fish is in a good spot, a good spot for feeding, it's generally not going to move despite all the fishing pressure, but they will get harder to catch. So you're going to have to be on your A-game if you fish this frequently, because [00:19:30.713] they're going to get smarter.
Fish do learn, and they're going to get a little bit smarter, a little less tolerant of drag, a little less tolerant of your approach. But you will be educating yourself as well as educating the fish. So I wouldn't hammer it too hard. But then again, you're not going to scare the fish away from your spot. They'll stay there. They might migrate at certain times of year because of water temperatures or spawning runs, or something like that, but they're pretty much [00:20:00.497] going to stay put.
Dan: Hi, Tom. This is Dan, calling from Western Massachusetts near the Green River, the small Green River, the North Egremont, and Austerlitz. I'm not really a fly fisherman, but I've become interested in fishing in the last year and a half. I have a whole year of experience fishing. I have a million questions about fish, but the one I'm going to ask you today is that, well, [00:20:30.346] I was standing on the bridge over the Green River, North Egremont, and I noticed a dead fish in the water.
I went down to see what was going on, and it turned out to be a 9-inch brookie with its head wedged into a crevice between 2 rocks. It was about 2 feet down in the water, arm's length, and I pried it out with a stick. There were no wounds on it. It was a little bit deteriorated [00:21:00.657] in the belly, but no wounds, no heron stabs. And kingfishers are rampant here. No kingfisher wounds. I had no idea how it happened.
My question is, what do you think it was? My theory would be that it was running away from a kingfisher or something, and saw maybe a way out, and misjudged and got its head stuck in a rock. Anyways, thank you for any theories, and [00:21:30.314] I hope I'll be sending you more questions. And thank you.
Tom: Well, Dan, I don't have a good answer for this. I think your answer is probably the best one, is that fish die. They only have a limited lifespan, and they die. And yeah, maybe the fish got caught, I'm not sure, trying to get away from something. It's rare that they get caught in a rock, but [00:22:00.437] it could have happened. I don't know exactly what might have happened there. But since you didn't see any predator marks on it, it must have been trying to get away.
But it could have just been time for that fish to expire. Could have died of disease or old age, or however fish die. So again, not a good answer, but you're going to see dead fish occasionally. Unless you see a lot of dead fish [00:22:30.043] in the river, then things are probably just fine.
Here's an email from Jeff. "Writing with a question about stress-dying trout. I'm attaching a photo I took at the walk into one of my local spots in Connecticut. This river is free-flowing and has been hot and low all summer. I haven't been fishing, but I've been taking temps and just walking the river. And over the last few weeks, it's dropping to about 65 to 68 in the morning, but then climbing to 72-ish [00:23:00.401] in the afternoon.
Other important context is that with recent rain, the river more than doubled in CFS in the past 24 hours. It's a wide river, so it's not as dramatic as it sounds. Current level is low, but not abnormal for the fall. So after weeks of historic lows, now it is more or less normal.
So today, as I walked in there, there were six to eight dead rainbows on the bottom of the river, close to the bank, under about a foot and a half of water. First, I figured someone was [00:23:30.636] caught taking them. It's catch-and-release fly fishing-only section. And the rangers threw them into the river, possible, but they weren't marked up in any way indicating that someone had killed them.
I further doubted that was the cause when I walked a few more feet and almost stepped on a 14-inch-plus rainbow. Holding it didn't move at all, and I thought it might be dead. And when I brought my waiting staff up to it, it leisurely swam away. This happened a couple more times as I walked. Strange behavior. Is odd for them [00:24:00.310] to be in that spot. I fish here often and never see them in that shallower side of the river. They hang in a big pool another 20 or 30 feet out so that you can wade to.
So then I was curious. I know fish move toward the banks when the water shoots up. Maybe those fish did just that, excited to finally have some water in the river, but then stressed and died as temps rose throughout the day. They've been under months of stress, and it's a rough summer. Does that theory sound feasible? Or given that they were in such a condensed area, does it seem [00:24:30.625] like it was a person that killed them? I ask just as a way to broaden my understanding of the habits and vulnerabilities of stress trout."
So again, I don't know. I don't know what happened, Jeff, but chances are that in Connecticut, those fish that you saw were stocked fish. And there are very few if... I don't know of any rivers that have a lot of [00:25:00.483] natural rainbow reproduction. So they're stocked fish, and stocked fish don't handle dramatic changes as well as wild fish. They are just not adapted to it. They've been raised in constant water temperatures, and of course, they've been fed without getting stressed.
And fish that were stocked tend not to hold in the best water. They tend to hold in places where they have to use up a lot of energy to survive because [00:25:30.299] they often don't know enough to get into a slower section of the river where they can have access to fast water to feed, but yet slower water to rest. And those fish just might have gotten exhausted trying to eat.
Or you said it's a catch-and-release area, so there's probably some fishing pressure there. There might have been a lot of people fishing for those fish, and maybe played them too long or handled [00:26:00.349] those fish too long. And in those cases, when the water gets up to 70 degrees, fish may not survive after being caught because that adds a lot of stress to already stressed fish. We all know that we stop fishing at 68 degrees.
But I know in Connecticut, you don't have who dollar regulations, so that... I don't believe that any place in Connecticut where they tell you to stop fishing when the water hits a certain [00:26:30.325] temperature. I do know on some of the Connecticut rivers where there's cold water tributaries coming into the river that they put signs up so people don't fish immediately adjacent to those cold water tributaries because the fish are very vulnerable when they're in those spots where cold water comes in a warmer water and they get stacked up in there and not a good situation for someone to go in and catch them.
So I don't know. Again, fish die, [00:27:00.519] and hatchery fish generally don't last as long as wild fish. They just aren't suited for changes in the environment as well as wild fish are. So it's probably a combination of a number of things.
Some fly-tying questions from Reagan. "Help. I've watched every video I can find. I just don't get my Comparadun wing to fan out, whether it's deer hair, CDC, snowshoe, or synthetic fiber. I'm pulling. I'm yanking. I'm [00:27:30.940] smushing. What's the trick?
Additional questions. When wouldn't you substitute CDC synthetic fiber or snowshoe for deer hair or elk hair? Another question. I understand the tail on a dry fly is to help it balance. Does that really only apply when it is a hackled dry fly? Another question. What are your thoughts on foam-bodied dry flies? I don't mean foam dries like a chubby. I mean, like a stimulator where the body has foam wrapped around the hook. Do these float better than [00:28:00.479] the original? Do they splat more?
And a final question. Oh, no. Two more questions. Because it's cricket season, what is your favorite cricket pattern? Do you find them effective on trout, or do trout not seem that interested in crickets? And finally, non-tying question. What the heck is a Hornberg? A streamer? A dry? What's going on there?"
Okay, Reagan. So first of all, your first question. [00:28:30.207] Getting your Comparadun wing to fan out. First of all, make sure you're using enough hair or whatever you're putting in there. If you try to make that wing too sparse, it's not going to fan out. There just isn't enough to fan out. And make sure you flare it when you tie it in. Make sure you flare it a bit and then pull it upright and put a few turns [00:29:00.701] of thread in front of that wing. And then take your thumbnail and push up against the base of the wing, and actually pull the wing off to the side. Fan it by hand. Pull it off so that it fans 180 degrees around the hook shank. And then put some more tight turns of thread in front of the wing.
You really want to put as much thread in front of the wing as you do [00:29:30.242] behind it because you have to place the wing between two dams of thread. One behind where you tied the material in, and then one in front. And if they're not equal, the wing's not going to fan out. It's going to slant forward, and it's not going to fan out. So keep working at it. I'm sure you'll get it.
When would I substitute CDC, synthetic fiber, or snowshoe for deer hair or elk hair? So I don't think [00:30:00.616] CDC makes a good Comparadun-style fly. There's just not enough of it unless you put a ton, unless you put like three or four feathers of CDC in there. You're not going to get a good enough wing profile.
CDC is great for hackling things, for emergers, for short wings, but I don't think it's good for a Comparadun-style fly, again, unless you put a lot of it in there. And CDC is such a pain because once it gets [00:30:30.300] wet after a fish or two, it's not going to hold shape, and it's not going to float very well. Really, deer hair or elk hair are the best for Comparadun.
Now, snowshoe rabbit, yeah, I use snowshoe rabbit at times for Comparaduns, but it's not hollow like deer or elk hair. So it doesn't float quite as well. And I don't find it quite as visible as [00:31:00.769] deer hair or elk hair. So I do use it mainly in emergers and not on Comparadun types.
Now, synthetic fiber, I do use a lot for a Comparadun wing. Stuff like Fulling Mill Ultra-Dry Yarn or one of Enrico Puglisi's yarns, like EP Fiber. And that makes a great Comparadun wing, particularly [00:31:30.791] on really tiny flies. So if I want some Comparaduns in a 20 or a 22 or even a 24, I'll almost always use that synthetic fiber. It's so much easier to work with than the natural materials. It floats well. It's highly visible. And this takes a little bit more futzing to get it to fan around the hook. You really have to pull it off to the side by hand before you set those thread wraps in front [00:32:00.204] of it, because it naturally wants to just stick straight up. So you have to kind of distribute it around the hook shank. But again, I do like the synthetic stuff for smaller flies.
And of course, we've talked about this before, but you do need to find the right type of deer hair or elk hair, too. It's often sold as Comparadun hair or Sparkle Dun hair, and it's going to be relatively fine. It's going to have short black [00:32:30.261] tips, and the hair is going to be kind of uniform. So anyway, material selection is important, but the technique is important too. So good luck with those Comparaduns.
Your second question. Yeah, the tail on a dry fly is to help it balance. It also imitates the tails of the naturals. And also, a tail on a dry fly might look like a shuck to the fish. You know, we put shucks on fish to make emergers, but sometimes the tail, [00:33:00.296] particularly if it's kind of bushy, might make it look like a shuck. And it doesn't just apply to a hackle dry fly, because if you're fishing something like a Comparadun, as you know, or a no hackle, and you're imitating a mayfly, you do want those tails for support. And they do look like the tails on real insects, especially if you split them. So yeah, it doesn't apply just to a hackle dry fly. [00:33:30.367]
And regarding your thoughts on foam body dry flies, the problem is that once you start winding foam on a hook, so let's say you're making a stimulator and you're wrapping the foam on the hook, you'll get some flotation because it doesn't absorb water, of course. But the trouble is when you wind that foam on a hook, you compress all the air bubbles inside the foam. So you're not going to get the same amount of flotation [00:34:00.705] that you would when you're just using a piece of flat foam, because you're not constricting that foam so much. So once you wind it, you lose a lot of the flotation properties. It will plop because it's heavier. So it will make a plop or a splat more. But I don't wind foam for bodies very often, but it's worth experimenting with.
And regarding crickets, you know, that's an interesting question because [00:34:30.912] I see and hear a lot of crickets along our trout streams, particularly in late summer and early fall. And the best imitation I know is just the old Letort Cricket, pretty straightforward, simple fly developed by Ed Schenck. And it doesn't work that well for me. And I don't know, maybe I'm not fishing it in the right places or at the right time. [00:35:00.466] I would expect toward evening, it would work better.
That's a good imitation, and I would try it. Maybe fish in your streams will take crickets better than they do in mine, but I don't have that good of luck on cricket imitations. And I'm not sure why. It could also just because I don't have a lot of confidence in them, and I'll go back to a hopper or an ant pretty quickly. But fish should eat more crickets, and they probably do. And maybe I'm just not doing it right. So I would [00:35:30.687] keep trying some cricket patterns and see how well they work for you.
And regarding a Hornberg, well, a Hornberg is a traditional New England fly that I personally don't care for, but a lot of people love the fly and use it a lot. And you can use it as a dry fly. If you put floating on it, you can use it as a streamer or a wet fly. If you don't put floating on it, it's kind of a hackled streamer type thing. [00:36:00.555] And it apparently works because it's a favorite of a lot of people, but I don't use them, and I don't know what you'd call it, whether you'd call it a dry fly or a streamer or a wet fly, who knows? I don't think it matters because people believe in it and it works. And I don't think those people care what they call it. They just call it a Hornberg.
Here's an email from Brian. "I've heard you mention on the two most recent podcasts that some modern graphite rods are so stiff they need a full-size heavy line to [00:36:30.346] make them load properly. If that's the case, then what's the point of a rod being designed to be so stiff? Why design a 5-weight that is so stiff it needs a 6-weight line? Why not just call it a 6-weight? Additionally, why not just design the rod to be a slower action? Is this a saltwater thing? As a mostly river trout angler, ultra-fast action rods have always confounded me. What gives?
And a question on the knotted leaders. I'm planning to try tying a variety of knotted leaders for myself this winter. This mostly [00:37:00.662] comes from the desire to learn more about leaders and also to craft leaders for my own unique needs, like sub-7-foot creek leaders for short rods.
It seems that resources online for knotted leaders are few and far between. Is this simply because knotless leaders are so overwhelmingly popular, or am I about to learn that knotted leaders are a pain to make and use? I don't know if there is enough to talk about, but I would love to hear guests discuss knotted leaders on a future podcast." [00:37:30.537]
Well, Brian, you're in luck because this podcast, Brian is going to talk about knotted leaders. And if you're not finding information on leader formulas for knotted leaders online, I don't think you're looking hard enough because there are plenty of them out there, particularly on George Harvey leaders. Somewhere you can find the old Orvis knotted leader formulas, which are good kind of basic standard leaders that turn over really [00:38:00.609] well, and they were developed over many years of experimenting. And then the George Harvey leader for lessening drag when dry fly fishing, and in some cases, when nymph fishing. So keep looking, you'll find them. And I would urge you to tie your own leaders, and you'll learn why in the podcast today.
Regarding the stiff rods, yeah, so it's [00:38:30.236] complicated. I'll try to explain as best I can, but even I'm confused. I don't know why somebody would develop a rod... Well, I do know why somebody would develop a rod that's so stiff that it really needs one line size heavier. It's because of tournament casting and because of the parking lot situation.
So what do people do when they go into a shop and want to try a fly rod? Well, most of the time... Or if they're at a show, if they're [00:39:00.562] at a sportsman show and they want to try a fly rod, what do they do? Well, they step up to the pond or they go out in the parking lot and they try to throw the whole fly line. They want to see how far they can cast with that rod.
And seldom do you see someone testing a rod that just pulls out 30 or 40 feet, which is where most of their fish are caught, right? They don't do that. They try to cast as much line as they can. And yeah, there are times when you want to cast over 40 feet, but [00:39:30.632] a good fly rod will do it without being overly stiff.
So those stiff rods will hold more line in the air. They'll build up energy if you push them hard enough, and they will throw the line that they're weighted for 100 feet. But they don't work so well, as you found out. They don't work so well in normal fishing situations because they're way too [00:40:00.644] stiff.
So I can't tell you a lot about other fly rods. I can tell you that the Orvis rods, for the most part, are going to be built true to line size. Now, let's take the Helios, for instance, the F and the D models. The F models have a little bit more load on them. In other words, they bend a little bit further when you cast them. It's not a fast or slow situation. It's how much the rod bends [00:40:30.477] and not where it bends. And the F models are going to work really well at 20, 30, 40 feet, although they will throw a whole fly line with good casting technique.
The D models will hold more line, and they're slightly stiffer. They have slightly less load on them. And the D models will push it farther. I don't think they need a line size heavier, but sometimes a half line size. Now [00:41:00.796] you can buy a half line size heavier. And sometimes when people are first starting out, it is better to overline a rod because it enables them to feel the line bending that rod. So sometimes just overlining a rod, even if it isn't overly stiff, sometimes overlining a rod will help people when they're starting out to feel that rod bend more and give them more of an idea of what the rod should [00:41:30.536] be doing.
So yeah, a lot of modern rods, I think, are too stiff, but I also think you're seeing a reversal of that. I think that we got to a point in fly rod design when people were making really super stiff rods, so they cast well at the casting pond or at a parking lot. But I think rod manufacturers in general are realizing that people want fishing rods, [00:42:00.408] most of them, not tournament casting rods. So I think you're seeing fly rod manufacturers back off a little bit on that super stiff action.
Here's an email from David. "Thanks for being willing to take and answer so many questions from people. I'm hoping you and your friends at the rod shop can answer this one. My understanding is that each section of a fly rod, when it is made, is flexed and examined to identify the spine, which is [00:42:30.512] the direction that the rod section most naturally tends to flex due to an overlap of material. Then the reel seat and eyes are oriented opposite the spine to ensure the rod casts correctly. This makes me believe that I should be doing my best during the cast to orient the rod in the casting plane so that it aligns with the spine and that of the natural rod flex.
However, I've seen videos of skilled casters with the rod oriented so that the spine is not [00:43:00.234] aligned, sometimes as much as 90 degrees, like Lefty Kreh. I recently watched a video with a very good caster who suggested that I turn the rod so that the eyelets and spine are perpendicular to the casting plane for the purpose of reduced drag on the line when hauling. This seems to make some sense to me. In my own trial and error, I feel like I get more power out of the rod when it is perpendicular to the casting plane, but it seems like there must be downsides.
So my [00:43:30.461] question is, when and why should I orient the rod in the casting plane, and when should I orient it perpendicular to the casting plane or in between the two? What are the pros and cons? What am I gaining and what am I sacrificing?"
Well, David, we know from looking at other manufacturers' fly rods that not everybody aligns that spine. Not everybody takes the trouble to spine the rods. We do at Orvis. [00:44:00.469] And your question is interesting, and I couldn't answer it, so I reached out to Shawn Combs, our rod designer, and I'll read you his answer because it's a lot better than I could answer. So here's Shawn's reply.
"The short answer is that when a rod has a spine aligned, the spring works in unison from section to section. It is okay to [00:44:30.327] rotate out of the spine when casting, as described below, because the spring is still in alignment, and if it softens, very minor effects as you rotate the blank when casting. The blank still works as one unit. I personally do not try and align my casting stroke with the 12:00 spine of the rod all the time. Great example of this is when I streamer fish from the front of a boat and cast low to my left. I'm not rotating my arm or wrist to cast with the spine. In summary, [00:45:00.360] spine alignment ensures the blank has consistent dynamic properties regardless of rod orientation while casting."
So basically, David, what that's telling you is don't worry about it so much. That spine is fairly thin. I mean, the graphite does start and end in a certain spot when you're rolling a blank, but the amount of extra material that's on that spine is [00:45:30.686] so minimal, I think, that it doesn't really matter as long as the spine is properly aligned.
Brandon: Hey, Tom. I figured I'd just call in with a tip that I recently figured out, and I think a lot of people could benefit from it. So if you like to fish with a vest like I do, a lot of times you get water in your vest if you wade too deep or it rains, etc., etc., and your fly boxes get wet. [00:46:00.405]
Well, I recently got into backpacking, and while I was getting gear for backpacking, I found all of these little waterproof bags that they sell at outdoor stores. They're like little roll-top bags, and you can fit... They come in a bunch of different sizes. So you could fit one fly box in one, you can get one that can fit a few. Just in case you're fishing in some deeper water or [00:46:30.234] you know you're going to be fishing in the spring when the water's higher, you can put some of your fly boxes in those bags, still fish with a vest, and it'll prevent your fly boxes from getting wet.
And then a question that I have for you, Tom, is have you ever been into backpacking, and have you ever mixed backpacking and fly fishing together? Because that's something I'd like to do, maybe hike up into some [00:47:00.445] small mountain streams, spend a night or two camping, stuff like that. So that's my submission.
Tom: Well, Brandon, that is a great tip. And being vertically challenged, I do frequently get my fly boxes wet, although I find that my Orvis sling pack is waterproof, at least the bottom part of it. And if I'm going to wade really deep, I'll use the [00:47:30.329] waterproof sling bag, which ensures that my fly boxes won't get wet. But it is a pain when your fly boxes get wet because you have to dry them all off, or they're going to rust and they're going to get ruined.
So that is a good idea. However, bear in mind that every time you want to change flies, you're going to have to go into that waterproof stuff sack. And it might be a little difficult if you're in the middle of the river and [00:48:00.706] reaching for a fly box. So yeah, it'll work. And maybe personally, I would just do it. I would carry it with me and put my fly boxes in there, maybe when I know I'm going to be wading deep or if I'm crossing a really deep section of river. But to have my fly boxes in stuff sacks all day long, it's going to be annoying, but it is a great idea. And you might also want to [00:48:30.365] consider a waterproof sling bag, unless you're a vest person. We used to sell a fishing vest with waterproof pockets, but they didn't work that well. So that's why we don't sell them anymore.
Regarding question, "Do I do much backpacking?" I don't. I don't do a lot of backpacking. I love to hike, and I will take long day-long hikes to fish. But for me, backpacking just takes too much fishing time away because you have to [00:49:00.479] set up a tent, you have to start a fire, and you have to cook meals and stuff like that. And I just don't want to take that much time away from fishing.
However, if I had the opportunity to fish for something like golden trout or Apache trout, or a Gila trout, or a trout species that I haven't caught before, and it required a backpack, I would do it in a heartbeat. But I don't have a lot of good tips for backpacking with a fly rod, [00:49:30.575] but I do have a note to do a podcast on backpacking with a fly rod. And I've got a couple of people in mind because I have gotten this question before. So stay tuned. Eventually, we'll do a backpacking fly fishing podcast.
All right. That is the fly box for this week. Let's go talk to Brian about all things leaders, knots, tippet, and lots of other cool stuff. Well, howdy, folks. This is [00:50:00.593] the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast. I had to get that in. My guest today, as you might have figured out, is Brian Flechsig of Mad River Outfitters.
And Brian does lots of great instructional videos on YouTube. I'm sure you've seen them. Nearly anybody that follows any kind of electronic media and fly fishing has, and they're great. [00:50:30.434] I was just watching the one you did on streamer color with Kelly Galloup. And I'm kind of in your school of I'm going to put on a streamer, and if it doesn't work, the fish just aren't eating streamers. And that inspired me to go and tie woolly buggers in four different colors because it was really interesting, and I [00:51:00.403] learned a lot from it. So that was a great one. I think it was a very recent one, wasn't it?
Brian: Actually, it was just released within the past couple of weeks. That may have been filmed about a year and a half ago.
Tom: Oh, really?
Brian: When Kelly was here last. But anyways, yeah, that's very interesting. And when I fish with Kelly, it's always kind of mind-blowing. And that's not false. He will literally [00:51:30.518] go through...in 15 minutes, he'll plow through 6 or 7 different colors.
Tom: Oh, boy.
Brian: And very, very interesting. And I've never been that way. I've always just kind of stuck with black or white.
Tom: Yeah, me too.
Brian: And yeah, for me, it's been a great lesson, and I've used it in other forms of fishing too. I think I talked about Theodore Gordon, and that was kind of his philosophy. Instead of changing [00:52:00.177] profile, instead of changing size, he would change colors of his [crosstalk 00:52:05.134].
Tom: Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. I never thought it mattered as much, but who knows? We'll never figure this fishing stuff out, and that's why it's fun, right?
Brian: We will not.
Tom: We won't even figure out a quarter of it, I don't think. No matter how long we live or how much we fish, we'll never figure it out. But we're going to talk about leaders today because [00:52:30.814] I know people love leader podcasts. I know people are confused with leaders. You know people are confused with leaders because you run a fly shop.
Brian: Yes, absolutely.
Tom: So you know the questions that you get all the time. And I'd like you to talk about the three-part leader that you and Flip Pallot, I think you and the late Flip Pallot... Sorry for your loss. I know you guys were great friends. [00:53:00.599] You guys came up with this leader formula, which is really easy. And I wanted to pick your brain a little bit about this procedure that you use for building leaders.
Brian: Sure, sure. Well, it was something that Flip had been working on for a number of years, and he had toyed around with some different formulas over the years. And then [00:53:30.950] he was presented with a problem, which... A lot of great things in fly fishing come out of problem-solving, as you know.
Tom: Sure. Yeah.
Brian: And so basically, his problem was that he had fishing where he lived in the Mosquito Lagoon, Indian River Mosquito Lagoon. He had a lot of [00:54:00.422] redfish in very shallow water, and they were extremely spooky. And they would get fished a lot. They saw a lot of flies. They saw a lot of boat traffic. And so he was trying to develop a formula that would actually work and allow him to take a leader, say even out to 15, or I have seen him fish 20-foot leaders.
And so the problem was coming up with [00:54:30.536] a leader that would turn over at 20 foot, which you can understand. And this was absolutely brilliant, and we've kind of finalized the formula about four years ago. We started teaching a new variation of schools. Let's call it a post-COVID iteration of the schools that we had been doing together for many years.
And these schools, we actually held them [00:55:00.490] in his driveway, and a totally different format than we had ever done before. But, of course, COVID changed a lot of things in that respect. But anyhow, so the three-part formula, what he came up with was that he wanted... The critical element in this leader formula is that the butt section of your leader, it must match in stiffness [00:55:30.885] to the tip of your fly line.
And if it met not in diameter, it's in stiffness. And actually, I've talked to Josh Jenkins about this at Scientific Anglers quite a bit to make sure that I'm saying the right things. It's actually the math, and the mass is some mathematical [00:56:00.249] combination of diameter and stiffness.
And I can't quote you what that is, but in my world, it's just... And what Flip and I used to do is compare the stiffness, and there's kind of a bell curve test that you can do. We've got a couple of videos. And so if the butt section of your leader matches your fly line and stiffness, then essentially the butt section of your leader becomes a [00:56:30.018] clear extension of your fly line.
Tom: Okay. Now, the way I do this, because I was monkeying with a 1-weight leader the other day, because I didn't think the ones that were sold...and I'll say we're right. And I just fold over the tip of the fly line and the leader together in the same arc. And if they follow the same arc, like they mirror each other, then I figure the [00:57:00.491] stiffness is right. Is that it?
Brian: That's basically exactly what we do. Yeah. You just lay them side by side and roll. And if it's way too stiff or way too limp, then the curve of the monofilament will fall off to one side. Ever seen that happen?
Tom: Yeah. Either under or over the fly line.
Brian: Exactly. Exactly. You can kind of get a similar curve, but it'll fall off. But if it stays [00:57:30.239] uniform and they stay nice and together, then you know that you have a pretty good fit. And over time, we've kind of come up with... Selling fly lines for 36 years of my life, I kind of know what fly lines match up with what diameter butt sections these days, and what material. Of course, it also matters the stiffness of the material. Orvis SuperStrong is going to be much different [00:58:00.633] than say RIO Saltwater. You're going to have much different diameters that you would use.
So once you get that stiffness right, then you can essentially make the butt section as long as you want, which is really beautiful. And then, of course, your tippet will be determined by... There's two things that the tippet must do. The tippet must have [00:58:30.692] the rigidity, the stiffness to turn over the fly you're trying to cast. If it's too limp, the tippet will collapse. And then it must survive the fight of the fish, which is where pound test kind of might come in, that you don't want to go so thin on your tippet that it'll break in the battle.
So your butt section is determined. Now your tippet is determined by the fly/fish, and then your [00:59:00.466] mid section simply splits the difference diameter-wise. So if you're 24/1000 on your butt section on say an 8-weight and you're 12/1000 on your tippet, then your mid section is going to be probably 17/1000.
And for a floating line, we'll go obviously longer leaders, and you can make... And the mid section we settled upon 18 inches [00:59:30.393] approximately, and your tippet approximately 18 inches. And, of course, this is all essentially for contact, what we would call contact fishing. Bass fishing, saltwater pike, musky streamers. And so, however long you want your leader to be, your mid is 18, your tippet's about 18. So subtract 3 foot. If you want a 10-foot leader, you're going to have a 7-foot butt section. [01:00:00.330]
And then, for sinking lines, of course, you know, I use... Flip never did use sinking lines much, being mostly a saltwater and bass angler. But I fish a lot of sinking lines and I just switch it to the same formula, butt matches the fly line, tippet matches the fly and fish, mid section splits the difference. But you're going to go 2 foot on the butt, 1 foot on the mid, and 1 foot on the tippet, and you got a 4-foot leader. [01:00:30.449] If you want a 5-foot, just make the butt section 3-foot. It's such a simple formula.
And man, I'm telling you, when he and I really started playing with it, I mean, at one point last year, we were fishing tarpon down in Apalachicola and we were turning over 20-foot leaders, throwing tarpon flies. And it was just like push button. I mean, when you get this right [01:01:00.449] and having that butt section match up with the tip of your fly line is just...it has been a game-changer for me.
Tom: Now, this is strictly for what you call contact fishing, which is where you're retrieving the fly, so bass fishing, saltwater fishing. I suppose swinging would be the same, right, because that's pretty much contact if you're swinging a steelhead fly.
Brian: The best way to describe it is [01:01:30.472] anytime you want the loop that you formed with the tip of your rod, you want that loop to go down all the way, the fly line through the leader, and to the fly. And then your rod is going to come down, and you're going to have contact with the fly. You're going to be retrieving it. That, I think, would be the definition of contact fishing. And this is a very, very important thing to discuss because it's the [01:02:00.212] foundation of this whole leader system that we've developed. And then, eventually, hopefully, early spring next year, we'll have the book out, which I begged Flip to write it with me, but he said, "No, no, no." He said, "I'm too old and you write it. You know what to say, you know what to do."
So we're going to get the book out in the spring, we hope. And [01:02:30.474] it's very important to understand the difference between contact fishing and non-contact. And non-contact would be essentially traditional dry fly fishing. If we're throwing a mayfly or a caddis fly or a spinner, a mayfly spinner, and we don't want the leader to straighten out perfectly.
I mean, the worst thing that can happen is if we're fishing a mayfly imitation, the leader goes perfectly [01:03:00.760] straight, what happens? The current grabs it, and it creates drag. So that's a much different leader build and a much different technique. And, of course, nymph fishing is also non-contact with the nymph bouncing along the stream bottom as if it were unattached to a leader. And that's a completely different leader build.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah, it would be because let's say in that one-way leader I was trying to figure out, so [01:03:30.868] I figured out I needed a 17/1000 butt on that 1-weight line. And what is it, 5/1000 for 7x?
Brian: Yeah, that sounds right.
Tom: Yeah. So the difference would be, I don't know, somewhere around roughly 10/1000 of an inch, right?
Brian: Right.
Tom: And I'm not going to tie 7x to 10/1000 of an inch because it's not going to hold, right? It's not going to perform very well.
Brian: It's not going to hold.
Tom: No.
Brian: So you're going to [01:04:00.521] have to switch to a four or five-part leader build.
Tom: Yeah, at least. At least.
Brian: Yeah, at least in that case. So that's going to be an interesting part. And just this past spring, Flip and I were really, really working on a dry fly formula.
Tom: Oh, cool.
Brian: And I'm still playing around with it. But I think we've got it [01:04:30.940] to the point where it can be an easy four or five sections. And you can basically do the same...very similar concept, just four or five sections. And instead of completely matching the tip of your fly line, your butt section will be a little bit more limp in that dry fly.
Tom: Because you want a little bit more slack in the system.
Brian: Exactly. Right.
Tom: Cool. Now, [01:05:00.708] what knot are you using? In this three-part leader for saltwater bass, whatever, contact leader, what knot are you using to connect those sections?
Brian: A blood knot.
Tom: A blood knot. Plain old blood knot.
Brian: Plain old blood knots. You know, in the schools, Flip liked to keep things really simple. And, of course, he used blood knots to connect the sections. And then I've always used, [01:05:30.589] and I think I've seen you talk about, you know, I use a lot of Lefty's loop or a non-slip loop to the fly. Well, Flip used a good old clinch knot.
Tom: No, I'm a clinch knot guy too. I don't like loop knots. Not even for tarpon.
Brian: Oh, you don't like loop knots?
Tom: Nope. Nope.
Brian: Okay. Okay. Well...
Tom: I've used them on occasion, and I talk about them, but personally, no, even for tarpon, I don't put a loop knot on them.
Brian: No, he didn't either. [01:06:00.475] In fact, even in a bite tippet for tarpon, he used, if I'm not mistaken, a three or four-turn clinch knot.
Tom: That's what I use, 3-turn clinch, and it holds in 40, 60 pound. Yep.
Brian: Well, and he was also very vehemently opposed to the Improved Clinch Knot.
Tom: So am I.
Brian: You know what? I'm glad to hear you say that because it was... I think you did a test [01:06:30.499] at some point, if I'm not mistaken, and you proved that the clinch was stronger than the Improved Clinch. Is that true?
Tom: That is not true.
Brian: Okay.
Tom: Here's the test. So we got an Instron machine, which is a very expensive tensile strength testing machine, and we thought, "Oh, cool. Now we can figure out whether a clinch knot is better than an Improved or Improved Clinch Knot is better." So we got a bunch of us in a room, Pete Kutzer and myself and Shawn Combs, and we each [01:07:00.287] tied 10 clinch knots in 4x to a size 12 fly. And we knew what the tippet break strength was without a knot in it. And we tested them on the Instron, and we went through one guy, Pete, and there was a 30% variation in his knots tied the same day under the same conditions with the same [01:07:30.758] tippet.
So we said, "Huh, well, I wonder if we want a statistically accurate test of these knots, what do we need for a 90% confidence interval?" And I think the statistic table told us with that kind of standard deviation that we would need to tie, I don't know, 400 knots? And we said, "Uh-uh, forget it." [01:08:00.341] So I wanted to do that, Brian, but I didn't.
And the other thing I sincerely believe is that every time you change the relationship between your tippet diameter and the wire in the eye of your fly, a different knot could be better. So you would have to say the best knot for 4x and a size 12 hook is the proof clinched, and if you go [01:08:30.545] to a 5x and size 16 hook, it might be a different knot, and it's just mind-boggling. It's just one of those things I think is going to have to remain a mystery.
Brian: Yeah, that's not practical and not something that we could as educators teach. [crosstalk 01:08:54.629].
Tom: So what I tell people, Brian, is there's a lot of good knots out there. There's a lot of really good, strong knots, [01:09:00.656] hundreds of them. Learn one that you like, that you trust, and practice it, practice it, practice it until you tie it with your eyes closed. Period. End of story.
Brian: End of story. That's excellent, excellent advice. But Flip was very adamant, and I remember Lefty saying that too. Lefty used to say that the guy that invented the Improved Clinch Knot named it wrong. It should have been called the Deproved Clinch. [01:09:30.419]
Tom: I never heard that before.
Brian: Well, you can just hear Lefty saying that.
Tom: Oh, yeah, I sure can. I sure can. Now, I got another question for you that's related to leaders. So you're tying pieces of monofilament together that differ by 5/1000, 6/1000, 7/1000 of an inch with a blood knot, right?
Brian: Yes, sir.
Tom: And in [01:10:00.129] trout fishing, in our finer tippets, we kind of have learned that you don't want to go really more than 2/1000 of an inch difference, and actually, 1/1000 of an inch creates stronger knots. So when does that switch over from you can tie two pieces of widely different [01:10:30.488] diameters in the heavy stuff, and you can get away with it. We know that. But where does it switch over to, you know, if you're tapering down, you need to go 1x size? Or do you go 2x sizes sometimes?
Brian: I usually tell folks 2x sizes myself is kind of what we teach and promote. [01:11:00.390] And that is a great question. And, you know, I'm not sure that I have the scientific answer, but my answer has always been on that I think once you get to, say, 0x, that's when I start to think more in terms of that. If you are 0x and smaller, I absolutely 100% agree that if you're attaching 0x [01:11:30.744] to 4x, that's not going to be a pretty knot.
Tom: No, it's not going to hold either.
Brian: No, it's not going to hold. Whereas if I'm in the thicker stuff, like I think you just said, I can get away with it, and I can also use what I've always called an Improved Blood Knot. And what you can do is double up. Let's say you're going 17/1000 to [01:12:00.548] 12/1000, which would be quite a jump, but you could always double up the 12/1000. And I'm not sure that that's the proper name for that knot, but I've always called it an Improved Blood Knot, and double up the 12/1000, and I get a pretty good knot out of it.
Tom: Yeah, I call it exactly the same thing, and I will do the same thing. Even if I'm jumping 2x sizes in a [01:12:30.370] trout leader, I might use the Improved Blood Knot.
Brian: I think it makes a difference, and I've had good success with it. I've never tested it on a knot-testing machine. We're actually working on kind of a homemade knot tester that we're going to start doing some videos on.
Tom: Well, hey, Brian, if you want to tie 400 knots, I'll put it on the Instron for you. You can mail them to me.
Brian: Unfortunately, [01:13:00.280] I still have a job.
Tom: Yeah, but this is your job, figuring these things out.
Brian: Yeah, right. Well, right now my job is writing pre-season orders and getting ready for 2026. And right now, as you know, I'm raising prices left and right. My goodness, it's a crazy time here in this industry, but it's a different subject.
Tom: Crazy time in any industry.
Brian: It is. You're right, my friend. [01:13:30.391]
Tom: Yep. So that's...
Brian: But that's what I've always said, is that once I get to 0x, and I will often too... Talking about knots, I've always told people just as a general rule that 0x is kind of the jumping off point, because... I do use a surgeon's knot a lot of times when I'm connecting 3x to 5x. So once [01:14:00.781] I'm down in the Xs, I think a surgeon's knot, to me, is acceptable, but once I'm thicker than 0x, it's all blood knots or the Improved Blood Knots.
Tom: Okay, and is it triple or double surgeons do you use?
Brian: I usually just use the double.
Tom: Okay. You find that holds okay?
Brian: Yeah, I have. And I've always just kind of felt that the triple was, for my taste, a little bit bulky, but [01:14:30.892] I'm also not as good or not as much of a trout fisherman as a lot of your listeners and yourself. I mean, most of what I do, just for a little bit further background, is I fish a lot of saltwater, and then we do, of course, here in Ohio, a lot of bass, a lot of pike, a lot of musky, and even when we do fish steelhead here in the Great Lakes, I'm fishing heavier tippets anyways. So [01:15:00.276] I'm not the world's foremost authority on trout fishing, that's for sure.
Tom: Well, you're the world's foremost authority on warm water and saltwater fishing, as far as I'm concerned.
Brian: Yeah. Maybe one day we'll get there.
Tom: So have you ever heard of, because this has kind of come up in podcast questions, have you ever heard of the double or triple Davy Knot? [01:15:30.132]
Brian: I have. I've heard of it, yes.
Tom: Yeah, have you ever used it?
Brian: No, I have not. I've tied it a handful of times in my life, and I'm sure it's a good knot, I just don't know that much about it.
Tom: Yeah, no, I feel the same way. And people are listening. Brian and I can probably tie knots almost with our eyes closed or in the dark, but you know what, if I have to learn a new knot, like [01:16:00.437] the Davy Knot, or even a... I don't think I even know how to tie a uni knot. I'd have to look it up in a book. It would take me days to develop the muscle memory in my fingers to figure out how to tie that thing. You know, none of them are easy, right? We've just been doing it all our lives, but none of these knots are easy, and that's why I tell people, you know, just learn one, learn one you like, because it's muscle memory, it's like casting, [01:16:30.404] and you have to figure out how to make your fingers work to tie these knots, and everybody ties them a little differently, I think, but you really got to practice them.
Brian: Well, and that fits exactly in kind of my philosophy and our philosophy here at Mad River Outfitters and what we teach in the schools and classes, is to keep it as simple as possible, and instead of... [01:17:00.355] I think there was a book at one time, I don't know, I might have made this up, but "1001 Fishing Knots."
Tom: Yeah, I think I remember that one.
Brian: Yeah, I think it was a book, and people are so intimidated by learning how to rig things up, they're intimidated by leaders, and when I tell them, you know, "Okay, as a beginner, to attach your leader, go loop to loop, it's not even a knot, it's a connection." [01:17:30.353]
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Brian: And then, as a beginning angler, you need to learn a surgeon's knot, and then you need to learn a clinch knot. And that's all you need to get out there and start fishing. Go catch, you know, 100 bluegill or whatever it is you're going to do, and if you start getting into having 50 knots at your disposal, I just don't [01:18:00.667] think it's all that practical. So I like to keep things simple in my own life, so I use that blood knot, if it's bigger than 0x, the Improved Blood Knot, if I'm attaching unlike to unlike, if I'm smaller than 0x, I use a surgeon's knot, and then I mostly use a clinch knot, and sometimes when I'm fishing streamers, I'll go with a non-slip loop knot.
Tom: Yeah, knots are fun, and they're interesting, and I encourage people to try new ones if they want, but just, [01:18:30.523] as you said, don't get confused about the 1001 fishing knots, because a lot of them are probably pretty damn good.
Brian: Oh, I'm sure there's better knots than the ones we've talked about.
Tom: I don't know. You talk to most fishing guides, and those are the ones they use, and their daily bread depends on tying good knots. So I'm not so sure if they're not the best.
Brian: Yeah, no, I was just with a guy last week, we were filming some stuff [01:19:00.357] with the Flylords guys, and Max from Flylords, and a great angler, wonderful guy, but he was talking about how he does a Bimini, and this, and a Bimini that, and I just thought to myself... I mean, I actually enjoy tying a Bimini twist, so, of course, we do it for backing to fly line here in the shop, but I don't think I ever recall tying a Bimini out on the water. [01:19:30.404]
Tom: They're fun. I have tied a few Biminis in boats before.
Brian: Have you?
Tom: Yeah, they're not that bad, but again, I practice them a lot.
Brian: Yeah, right.
Tom: I can't tell you how many hours I spend at home with my shoes off practicing Bimini twists. I usually tie them up before I go fishing, though.
Brian: Right, exactly. Yeah, that's what I do at home or here in the shop.
Tom: Yeah, and a lot of people now [01:20:00.442] are tying up their...if they're fishing two or three nymphs, they're tying up their rigs and putting them on a card or on one of those Orvis...I forgot what the name of the fly boxes that you can put...
Brian: It's the dropper rig box.
Tom: The dropper rig box, yeah. A lot of people use that.
Brian: That box, Tom, has been... We have sold so many of those boxes here over the years.
Tom: I keep kicking myself. I got to get one. I don't even own one.
Brian: That's been in the line forever.
Tom: I know it is. [01:20:30.608]
Brian: I've been selling that thing, I mean, it's probably close to 30 years now.
Tom: Oh, my God, jeez. You've been selling them since before there were even people fishing droppers very much, right?
Brian: No, talking about Biminis, you'll remember this, too. Orvis, I think it was with one of the braided leader systems. Yeah. Orvis used to sell a compound tippet with a Bimini in it. You remember that?
Tom: Yeah. [01:21:00.931]
Brian: I think that went along with the braided leader system.
Tom: Yeah, it did, and it added a little taper to that tippet. Oh, it was beautiful. But there were some people in Sri Lanka tying Biminis in 6x and 7x, and they were good at it.
Brian: Yeah, gosh, I wish those braided leaders were still available.
Tom: Oh, man, tell me about it. What Brian's talking about is [01:21:30.934] there was an older leader that Orvis sold, it was not a furled leader, it was a braided leader, which is different. A braided leader is not solid like a furled leader, it's hollow, and they had many, many, many fine filaments in it instead of the coarser stuff that's in a furled leader.
And they had to be made by a machine, and the machine had to be maintained manually, and it was an incredibly complex process. And [01:22:00.375] originally, we got them from Spain, and that guy, I don't know, either passed away or went out of business, got sick of making furled leaders. He had some kind of machine. And we did have a guy in the States that was making them in his garage, and then he just finally said, "I'm done with it." So we haven't been able to get them. It's a very, very complex process. [01:22:30.242]
Brian: Yeah, I think we had also heard at one point that the guy that was doing them here in the States had passed away as well.
Tom: It could be.
Brian: Yeah. So that may be a lost art, but, man, those things were amazing for dry fly fishing.
Tom: Yeah, they're pretty good. They weren't any good for streamers or knots, but they were pretty good for small dry flies.
Brian: Yes.
Tom: Yeah, well, maybe we'll get them again someday. I guess, do you use furled leaders? I get that question all the time. [01:23:00.136]
Brian: I do.
Tom: Do you like them?
Brian: I do. I like furled leaders, but really, probably 4-weight and under, 2, 3, 4. And I like them for what we would call traditional dry fly fishing, when I'm fishing an adult or an emerger mayfly, caddis fly. I don't love them... Once I [01:23:30.485] get out to Montana and I'm throwing a hopper, I do not use them.
Tom: Okay. Not stiff enough in the butt.
Brian: Yeah, right. It's not stiff enough in the butt. So I'll go to a four or five-part formula for that. But I do. I like them a lot for throwing dry flies, especially here in the East, when I'm fishing a small spring creek or something with a 3-weight. And we do [01:24:00.443] sell them, and we sell a lot of them. And they have a tippet ring on the end. And usually, what I do is I go ahead and I put a piece of... What I found is I get the proper bell curve off the front of it with 3x diameter. And that gives me my little connector, and then I can make a compound tippet. I can go like a six 8-inch piece of 3x is perfect. [01:24:30.272] And then I can launch into... If I'm going to 6x, I might have 10 inches of 4x and then 2 foot of 6x. And that gives me my tippet.
Tom: Okay. Good. That's good. And what do you find are the advantages of defurled leaders?
Brian: It does basically the same thing for me that the braided leader did. I don't think they're as limp as the braided leaders. The beautiful [01:25:00.324] thing about that braided leader, as you remember, that thing could turn over. I mean, you could turn over just ludicrous amounts of tippet.
Tom: Yeah, you could. Yeah.
Brian: And it had this magical quality of being able to turn over that tippet, but it still landed in beautiful coils, or not coils, but little S curves on the water. And it landed so softly, and it just made for just a fantastic [01:25:30.747] dry fly drift. And I get a very similar... It's the same concept. So it's a 5-foot or a 6-foot butt section. And then you're going to add 2, 3, 4, 5, even more foot of tippet to the front of it to round out the leader. So it's actually just a butt section. And then you're going to add a tippet or a compound tippet to the front. They don't land as soft as the old braided leaders. [01:26:00.292] I do wish that those braided leaders were still around. Those things were amazing. But I do like the furls, and I do use them.
Tom: Well, I'm going to keep talking. I know that our retired past president and CEO, Perk Perkins, loves them. And he's always asking for us to bring them back, but the product developer just can't find anybody that'll make them. So we'll keep bugging them.
Brian: Yeah, that's [crosstalk 01:26:28.706] even the furled thing. [01:26:30.236] We were very lucky on the furled leaders to find a guy here in Ohio that makes them. In fact, he's about an hour away. And I just order tons of them from him. And he just delivers them to the shop on the weekends. And so we get a good supply of those. But yeah, those braided leaders are nowhere to be found.
Tom: Yeah, the furled are a lot easier to make. You can make a jig and make them in your garage or in your kitchen if you [01:27:00.401] wanted to, but not the braided leaders. That was a specialized machine. Now, Brian, do you ever use a standard knotless tapered leader out of the package?
Brian: Personally, very rarely.
Tom: No kidding.
Brian: Yeah. I tie... I mean, I've got the three-part to four-part formula for contact [01:27:30.458] fishing. And that's, once again, saltwater, streamers, bass, pike, musky. If I'm adding a bite tippet or shock tippet, that becomes a four-part formula. So the fourth part is the bite or the shock. So I'm adding wire or mono or fluoro bite tippet to the front.
I've got now a four to five-part dry fly [01:28:00.432] formula based off the same concept. And then I've got a sometimes four-part, sometimes three-part nymph formula that, believe it or not, I start that one with amnesia in the butt section. And what I found is that in that leader formula, that amnesia, if you've ever played around with it, [01:28:30.545] which I'm sure you have, it's got this magical quality of being limp and stiff at the same time. That's the only way I know how to describe it.
It has what it takes to turn over a split shot, if you're using it, a heavy fly, and an indicator. It's got what it takes in the butt to turn that over. And then you can step down and actually create [01:29:00.585] a hinge in your leader so that you get the perfect tuck cast. So you can build that leader to facilitate the tuck cast such that... In a nymph leader, the worst thing that can happen is it goes perfectly straight.
Tom: Yeah, right.
Brian: And then by the time the nymph reaches the bottom, you're over the fish's head. You're well over the fish's head. So a properly designed nymph leader should collapse, [01:29:30.366] should kick over, and then in a perfect world, the nymphs, the split shot, and the indicator would enter the water vertically.
Tom: Why don't you...?
Brian: And everything sinks down. You raise your rod up. And then also that amnesia gives me a little bit of a cider in the butt section of that leader, which I think is very helpful for nymph fishing, especially if you're not using an indicator.
Tom: So can you talk about [01:30:00.644] how you build that leader? Let's say you want a, I don't know, 9-foot leader and you're fishing 5x to your nymphs. How would you build that leader?
Brian: Sure. I usually go with 3 foot of 20-pound amnesia, which I think is 19/1000.
Tom: Okay. And it's flat. Amnesia is flat, right?
Brian: No, no, no. It's round.
Tom: Oh, okay.
Brian: It is. It's round. So it's 20 pound [01:30:30.723] and I use the 20 pound on...I'll use it on a 4-weight, 5-weight, 6-weight. And I even use that 20 pound on a 7-weight because I use the same formula for fishing steelhead here, drifting eggs and nymphs in Lake Erie. And then I'll switch to a limp material. In fact, Orvis SuperStrong is excellent for this. Another I use is [01:31:00.184] Maxima Ultragreen at times. But Orvis SuperStrong, for example, and I'll go to like 13/1000. I'll go down to then maybe 9/1000, which is 2x. And so I'm, of course, using my Improved Blood Knot for that. And then I'll run a tippet ring, most definitely. [01:31:30.701]
And so I'll go 3-foot, 2-foot, 2-foot, and that gives me 7 foot of butt section. And if I want a 9 or a 10-foot leader... If you want more tippet... What I've been doing a lot more and I've learned quite a bit from hanging out with our mutual friend, Tim Flagler. And I've never been a Euro nymph guy. I have to admit it. I'm American. [01:32:00.364] I just don't know anything about it, but I really have learned a lot from watching him and watching the leaders that he builds. And I'm starting to go with... I'm starting to believe in this longer tippet.
Tom: Yeah, me too. Me too. Absolutely.
Brian: And the thinner tippet.
Tom: Yep. Absolutely.
Brian: And, you know, Flip Pallot and I got into many, many arguments over this sitting in [01:32:30.372] his driveway, probably sipping some frigate reserve rum. And he kind of had this argument at times that heavier monofilament, thicker monofilament was therefore heavier and that it would sink faster than thinner monofilament.
Tom: No, no, no. He's wrong. He was wrong. I'm sorry.
Brian: He was wrong. He was wrong about that.
Tom: Well, nylon [01:33:00.463] is almost neutrally buoyant anyways.
Brian: Right. And it's possible, Tom. Think about this. I've thought a lot about this is that maybe without a fly attached to the end.
Tom: Yeah, maybe.
Brian: Maybe without... And I can't say that unless we went to a swimming pool or a fish tank or something. Maybe with no fly attached to the end of that. That thicker mono might sink faster than the thinner [01:33:30.294] mono.
Tom: Maybe.
Brian: But as soon as you put a weighted fly on there or a split shot or a nymph, there's no question that it's going to pull the thinner diameter down much faster than it will pull the thicker diameter.
Tom: Yep.
Brian: So I've been changing up that formula a little bit and I got to get this together before the book and come up with a final version. But [01:34:00.823] what I've been doing is going with a 3-foot butt section of amnesia and then shortening up to 1 foot and 1 foot on the transition pieces. And then I can go with 4 foot of tippet to make a 9-foot leader.
Tom: Yep. And you have a tippet ring in between the tippet and the rest of the leader.
Brian: I do. And that gives me more of that Euro style leader that is, for the most part, mostly [01:34:30.375] tippet.
Tom: And do you park your indicator right above the tippet ring?
Brian: Yes. That gives me... You know, and I can put it on either of the transition seconds or if I'm fishing deeper, I can put it up on the amnesia. But yes, that gives me something a little thicker to bite into when I put my indicator on there.
Tom: Okay, cool. Interesting stuff. Leaders are always fun to talk about, aren't they? Because there's... [01:35:00.209]
Brian: They are. And they are so confusing. It's amazing to me in our industry that there's so much confusion about the leaders. And it's something that we've really set out to...both here at Mad River Outfitters and through the schools that Flip and I did together. We've really set out to try to simplify it. And so I've been working really hard to kind of come up with a simple solution that almost every leader can be four or five [01:35:30.429] parts.
Although I will say, going back to dry fly leaders, it sure is hard to beat the George Harvey formula for dry flies. That's one. But I always tell people that you can use a furled leader and just add tippet or a compound tippet. And then I joke around and I say, "Or if you just love tying blood knots, [01:36:00.839] if you love tying blood knots and you can't get enough of it, then the George Harvey leader formula is certainly one to look at." That is a great dry fly formula, and if I wasn't so lazy and relied on furled leaders for size 12 and smaller dry flies. But luckily, we tie those, and we actually tie the George Harvey formula in-house here at Mad River Outfitters. So that's kind of cool.
Tom: Well, you know, here's something... [01:36:30.470] First of all, thank you for that. And, you know, I get this question all the time. In fact, I had two questions on the podcast last week, which were, "Should I tie my own knotted leaders?" And I think you just answered that question that you're going to learn a lot and you're going to be more versatile.
But another question that I get and I can't answer is that people say, you know, some leader formulas say, "Use hard nylon for this and soft nylon for this. And [01:37:00.319] I know that Harvey recommended a combination of hard and soft nylons or limp and stiff nylons." Which ones are stiff, and which ones are hard, or which ones are soft?
Brian: And that's a great question, Tom. And I've got a couple of answers for you. First and foremost, in thinking in terms of a contact [01:37:30.504] leader versus a non-contact leader for nymphs versus a non-contact leader for dry flies, kind of in this way of thinking and this method that we've been working on, those are really the only three types of leaders that you should need.
There will be, of course, some little variances and some little intricacies for this technique or [01:38:00.637] that technique or water depth or water speed or what have you, but you can really break it down into contact, non-contact nymph fishing, non-contact dry fly fishing.
Also, in this way of thinking, there really is no such thing, and this came directly from Flip, there really is no such thing as a permit leader. If you have a permit leader and there's a picture of a permit on the package, you know, I hate to say it, [01:38:30.463] especially being the owner of a fly shop, but that's marketing if you subscribe to the Flip Pallot three-part or four-part formula.
Tom: Sure. Yeah, absolutely.
Brian: Yeah. So within those three leader formulas for contact fishing, I want stiff monofilament. I want that loop to travel all the way to the fly. For [01:39:00.335] nymph fishing, I want that leader to be, let's say, "half stiff, half limp." I want the stiffness in the butt section because after all, you're casting heavy weighted nymphs, sometimes split shot, and sometimes an indicator. So you can't have a super limp butt section and actually make a fly cast.
Now, again, I'm not talking about Euro nymphing here. I'm talking about [01:39:30.234] making a good, old fly cast. So in essence, I want that leader to be half fairly stiff, and that's why I use the amnesia in the butt section because it has the stiffness to kick over an indicator and switch up. And then to me, a dry fly leader should be virtually limp the whole way.
Tom: Okay. So the question is, because nobody will tell you this, which brands are limp [01:40:00.727] and which are stiff?
Brian: You know, just like you, I'm sure I have gotten to become very good friends with some amazing anglers around the world. And I've got a guy in Norway, and this guy, Tom... In fact, as soon as we're done with this, I'm going to shoot you an email that he just sent me. And he has a brilliant, brilliant [01:40:30.554] way of doing this. And he takes comparable, let's say, 2x diameter.
And I'm not going to say this exactly right on the podcast, and forgive me, but maybe we can circle back and do this again at some point when I know more. He takes a foot of monofilament and he kind of straightens it out with the heat of his fingers and he lays it on the table in front of him. And he said, "Limp monofilament [01:41:00.414] will stay in a straight line. Medium monofilament, you will see some squigglies in it. It won't lie in a straight line. Stiff monofilament will coil back upon itself." Isn't that a cool way to think of it?
Tom: Yeah. But which ones...? Let's talk about some common brands because I can never figure this out, and I don't have a good answer, which ones are stiff and which ones are limp, [01:41:30.658] and the brands, common brands.
Brian: My benchmark is Maxima.
Tom: For stiffness.
Brian: Well, I use Maxima... Maxima Chameleon is the stiffest that Maxima makes. I have found it to be too stiff for anything. And remind me, let's come back to the George Harvey leader formula because there's an interesting fact about that that I [01:42:00.668] think a lot of people either don't know or overlook. But anyway, Chameleon is the most stiff. Clear is next. And then Maxima Ultragreen is the most limp that Maxima makes.
I use Clear for contact leaders. I use Maxima Ultragreen for midsections on my nymph leaders. And I use it if I'm going to tie a George Harvey dry fly leader. And in [01:42:30.338] George Harvey's original book, the formula that he put out in that book, you're right, he had a mix of... He used Maxima Chameleon, and then he switched to Ultragreen for some of the mids in the tippet.
But in the year 2000, if I'm not mistaken, it might have been 2002, but in the year 2000, it was just before he died, he wrote an article for "Fly Fisherman Magazine." And you can find this on Google [01:43:00.392] fairly easily. He wrote an article where he changed that formula, and he said he was wrong about the Chameleon, that it was too stiff, and he changed the final formula that he decided upon before he died was Maxima Ultragreen the whole length of the leader.
Tom: Oh, wow. So he didn't use hard and soft nylon in the end.
Brian: He did not. And upon further... As we all do, we all come up with these theories, and then we [01:43:30.443] say this, and then two years later, we say, "Well, I was wrong about it."
Tom: Yeah, right. We're always learning, right?
Brian: Yeah. Always learning. And that's something I learned from Flip. I mean, Flip proved Lefty Kreh wrong on several occasions. And I asked him one time, I said, "Flip, are you comfortable in doing that?" And he said, "Well, of course." He said, "That's what Lefty would have wanted us to do. Lefty would have wanted us to keep learning and to keep investigating." [01:44:00.292]
So yeah, George Harvey changed that. And again, anybody out there can look that up on Google. Just look up a "Fly Fisherman Magazine" article. And, of course, not nearly as many people saw it in Fly Fisherman as read it in his original book. So there's a lot of people that still believe that George Harvey's original...that the formula was Chameleon and Ultragreen. And he flat-out admitted that [01:44:30.351] he was wrong. He changed it to Ultragreen the whole way. And that was his final leader formula before he died.
And we sell both. We sell the original and we sell the later one that he released in that article. And a lot of people still buy the original. So it works for some people. And you know what, Tom, at the end of the day, that's what's [01:45:00.166] important. And you said this a minute ago, play around with different things, build purpose-driven leaders, and you're going to find a formula that works for you and for your rod and your line and your situation. And that's all that matters. It doesn't matter what I say or what Flip said or what Lefty said or what Whitlock said. What matters is what works for you. And if it works for you and you're [01:45:30.264] catching fish and you're having fun, well, then there's your leader formula.
Tom: Yep, exactly. All right, Brian. Well, it sounds like we're going to have to have you back on when you finalize this trout leader formula.
Brian: You know, I've been working on it. It's been a long... And that's the problem. I keep learning stuff.
Tom: Yeah, that is a problem.
Brian: And I keep trying different things and saying, "Well, wait a minute, what if I did this?" And then, "Oh, that works. That works better than what..." And then [01:46:00.675] I feel like I need to go back. And all those people that I emailed three years ago, and told them that this was gospel, I feel like I need to apologize to them. But there's also been a few products that we've been trying to bring to market, and that's been a challenge since COVID. And one of those things, I think you'll appreciate this, is there is no leader micrometer on the market.
Tom: I know. I know. We need one.
Brian: Hold on, buddy. Hold on. [01:46:30.213] It's coming.
Tom: Yeah?
Brian: You know who Hank Manley is, you know, the Hank Manley pliers?
Tom: I've heard of them. Yeah. I've heard of them.
Brian: Yeah. It's these kind of popular saltwater pliers. Anyway, Hank Manley, he's retired, but I talked him into coming out of retirement. And I would say in about 3 to 4 weeks, I'm going to send you a beautiful little circular micrometer that'll measure from 32 down to 7x.
Tom: Oh, cool. [01:47:00.550] Yeah. We need it. We definitely need an angler's... I mean, they used to sell them. We used to sell them at Orvis. We used to sell micrometers.
Brian: Right. Yeah. TMCO had one. Mike Wright, Fish Pond, most recently. [crosstalk 01:47:14.854].
Tom: Yeah. There used to be these little feeler gauges that you could feed the tippet in, and you could tell what diameter it was. So yeah, we need something like that.
Brian: I used to have one hanging around my neck at all times, helping to guiding trout a lot. And the other thing that we're trying to bring back...[01:47:30.399] and you'll remember this. Do you remember when Whitlock did his knotless, I don't think he was the first to do it, but the knotless connection kit, and he ran the butt section right up into the core of the fly line, and then Zap-A-Gapped it?
Tom: Yep.
Brian: We're working on bringing that pin vice back. I've been in touch with Emily Whitlock, and just for 2-weights and 3-weights. It's just such a cool, cool connection [01:48:00.337] that I think that's got to be part of the whole story. It was just such a cool way to do it. So anyways, we're going to get there. And no, I would love to come back, and you and I got to get together, too. I mean, we're heading out to... We're going to be with Flagler, Tim, and Joan. In a couple of weeks, we're going to be down on Spruce Creek.
Tom: Oh, yeah. I told him I was out on that trip.
Brian: Yeah. You're going to Puerto Rico or something? [01:48:30.520]
Tom: No, Chile.
Brian: Oh, nice. Well, I'd rather go to Chile than Spruce Creek anyways.
Tom: Yeah, I think so. It's a little warmer down there.
Brian: Well, we're going to have some fun. But yeah, one of these days we got to get together and have some fun and make some content.
Tom: That would be fun. Your place or mine, you're on.
Brian: Either/or, we'd love to come up there, man. I love it up there.
Tom: You're welcome anytime. [01:49:00.272]
Brian: Cool. All right.
Tom: Okay, Brian. Well, thank you so much. We've been talking to Brian Flechsig of Mad River Outfitters, Orvis dealer, and great fly shop, and great YouTube content producer. So Brian, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
Brian: Well, thank you, Tom. Really appreciate it. And thanks for everything that you've done for all of us.
Tom: Oh, my pleasure. Thank you. Bye-bye. [01:49:30.348]
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. in the body of an email or as a voice attachment. You can find more free fishing tips at howtoflyfish.orvis.com.
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