The Magic of Pheasant Tail, with Craig Mathews
Podcast Transcript:
[music]
[00:00:15.304]
Tom: Hi, and welcome to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And my guest this week is the great Craig Matthews. Craig is a, well known, fly tire, conservationist, fly [00:00:30.089] shop owner. He was once police chief in West Yellowstone, Montana, and all around great guy. One of the one of the greatest people in fly fishing.
And today, we're gonna talk about we're gonna talk about one fly-tying material, pheasant tail. But, however, don't go away. If you're not a fly tyer, don't go away, because Craig talks about lots of other things including, fishing small flies, tricks to fishing small flies, which I know bugs some of you. But at this time of year, [00:01:00.479] sometimes you have to fish the little, tiny stuff. So, even if you're not interested in tying flies or pheasant tail, don't go away. And if you are interested in tying flies with pheasant tail, well, you've got lots of cool tips. Pheasant tail is an amazing material, and Craig's gonna talk about how he uses it on dry flies and nymphs and wet flies, how he handles the fibers, and why he thinks it's such an amazing material. So, stay tuned. [00:01:30.560] It's gonna be fun.
And I'm so glad you're here listening to the podcast. And thank you very much for downloading this onto your phone or your computer and listening to the interview in the fly box. I really appreciate all the feedback I get from people, all the great questions. And so, anyway, I am glad you're here. Before we start the fly box, just a couple of mentions. One is that I do have [00:02:00.260] some room on my two Bahamas trips next April, April of 2026. We have a trip to Swains Key, April 13th to 17th, and then, a trip to H20 Bonefishing on Grand Bahama, April 17th to 21st. So, if you wanna come and go to both lodges, it's a pretty quick couple of flights in between them, you [00:02:30.129] can come for a whole week and get a real wide variety of bonefishing. In Bahamas, bonefishing is one of my favorite things to do in the world, and I love to share it with people.
And if you don't wanna go fishing with me, well, you know, you won't hurt my feelings. Well, maybe it will. But there's other places you can go. And let me just give you an idea of three places you might think of, either for this fall or probably, for next year, [00:03:00.280] for next season. The first is RIGS Fly Shop and Guide Service. They're in Western Colorado, and they've been around for a long time. Locally owned, and they fish the famous rivers like the Gunnison and the Uncompahgre, the Cimarron, the San Miguel. They guide in high-country lakes and small streams. You can wade fish or you can take a drift boat trip. And they have some very special [00:03:30.264] tenkara trips, where you go up in mountain streams. And all the tenkara equipment is provided and also, private tenkara instructions. So, if you've if you've wondered about this way of fishing, if you've heard about it, and you wonder what it's like, this is a good way to get started and see if it's a method of fishing that intrigues you.
The next place you might wanna go is to Charlotte Harbor [00:04:00.384] in Florida. I know a lot of you vacation in Florida, particularly on the West Coast Of Florida. And Roger Gendron, is a guide that specializes in the Charlotte Harbor on the West Coast Of Florida. So, it's really clear water, white sand beaches. And Roger fishes for snook, redfish, trout sea trout, and tarpon. I personally have done a fair amount of fishing in Charlotte Harbor, and I've found [00:04:30.175] that the tarpon fishing can be good or it can be tough. That's tarpon for you. But I've had some really good tailing redfish fishing in that area and also, chasing snook on the beach at a certain time of year. And so, Roger specializes in that area. He's a supporter of Captains for Clean Water, and we love to hear that because they're one of our greatest conservation partners. If you're not [00:05:00.045] a member of Captains for Clean Water, if you don't support them, and you like fishing in Florida, you really should.
You know, if you're new to saltwater fly fishing, you wanna try it. I know that a lot of you have trout fished all your life or bass fishing and wanna get into saltwater fly fishing, and you might be on the West Coast Of Florida for the wintertime, it's almost essential that the first time you go, you hire a guide like Roger. Because, [00:05:30.954] it's really... Saltwater fly fishing is a lot of it is being in the right place at the right time. And if you try to do it on your own, you're probably not gonna be in the right place at the right time. But an experienced guy like Roger is gonna take you to the right place at the right time. So, if you're interested in starting out in saltwater fly fishing, he also does light tackle spinning. So, you know, if you're worried about the wind and you're not quite sure about your saltwater casting, [00:06:00.379] you can always pick up a spin rod and have some fun.
And then finally, a lodge. Tower Rock Lodge is on the Kenai River in Alaska. And Alaska's a big place, and there are lots of lodges and outfitters. Everyone should go there, at least, once. But the quality of the lodging and the guiding varies widely as you would expect with so many so many lodges and [00:06:30.269] guides and outfitters. So, why risk the trip of a lifetime with a substandard lodge? Tower Rock Lodge is Orvis endorsed. So, we've checked it out. We've fished there. We've eaten there. We've slept there. And we know it's a great place. They have silver and king salmon available, halibut, if you want to go saltwater fishing, arctic char and, of course, native rainbow trout. And some of the rainbow trout in the Kenai River [00:07:00.100] have been known to reach 30 inches, which is a huge rainbow.
And if you go in September in the fall in general, they've got steelhead fishing. And there aren't that many places in Alaska that offer true steelhead fishing. And their catch rates at Tar Wreck Lodge of wild steelhead can be higher than most rivers. They also offer fly out trips for sockeye salmon, and you would see the bears eating [00:07:30.410] sockeye salmon and silver salmon. The season there is May through September. And they have four private cabins and a main lodge. And, of course, if you go there, it's an Orvis endorsed lodge. You're gonna get great food. You're gonna have terrific guides. And the food there is kind of a tied to table theme. They use a lot of locally-sourced, proteins, and vegetables, so it's a real Alaskan experience. So, that's Tower [00:08:00.110] Rock Lodge on the Kenai River in Alaska.
Okay. Now, let's do the fly box before we go talking to Craig about pheasant tails. And it's not just about nymphs. Pheasant tail can be used for dry flies very effectively. Anyway, if you wanna send a question into the fly box, you can send it to me at
"I'm 28 years old and starting to learn more about fly fishing, specifically, saltwater fly fishing. I've been fishing saltwater all my life, mainly targeting speckled sea trout, but enjoying catching flounder, reds, and black drum. I'm very new to fly fishing in general and have been doing a ton of research over the last week or so. I found your videos on [00:09:00.070] YouTube and stumbled upon your podcast and have been listening to it to try to learn as much as possible. I have a ton of questions when it comes to saltwater fly fishing, but I have one main one that I've been thinking about for a little while. Is it really necessary to sight fish, or can you just more or less make educated guesses on where you think fish could be, like creeks or near structure? In conjunction with that question, is fishing a sinking line in 6 foot to 12 foot water worth it fly fishing? Most [00:09:30.085] videos that I have seen, and the angler is sight fishing, but I know where I fish that isn't always an option."
Well, Corey, you can absolutely fish the water or blind fish or whatever you wanna call it, not being able to see the fish. We all love sight fishing. And you're gonna see that more often on YouTube videos because it's more visual and it's more exciting to watch. And for the angler, it's really exciting. It's what I [00:10:00.004] enjoy doing. But there are times when you're just not gonna be able to spot the fish. Maybe it's cloudy or rainy or maybe the fish are deeper than you can see them. And you can absolutely fish to different types of structure, you know, places where ponds come into the ocean or estuaries, bars, rocks. Anything that provides some kind of structure, is definitely worth throwing a fly to. And, yes, sinking line can work. [00:10:30.794] You can get your fly down to 6 to 12 feet of water without too much problem with a depth charge or a sinking line. Depth charge is my favorite for that kind of fishing. You can get down to about 20 or 30 feet before it becomes a real struggle. So, yeah, if you've got deep water along the edge of the shore or along a break wall or something or there's a strong current, absolutely, you can fish a sinking line and just [00:11:00.044] fish the water and see what happens.
Bob: Hi, Tom. It's Bob from Maine. My question has to do with fly boxes for small nymphs, especially like size 18 and 20. I have a hard time with my fat fingers getting them into the fly box and then keeping them organized. Do you have any suggestions that might help with this or fly boxes you like? I've resorted to keeping them in the plastic container you get at fly shops when you buy the flies, but [00:11:30.225] this can be problematic, especially if it opens in your bag or you drop it while getting a fly out, and it can be expensive that way. Honestly, I've always been a little confused with the different styles of fly boxes. Some have grooves for the hooks. Some have ridges. Do you know of a good video that talks about the various different types of boxes and the flies that they're best for, and actually, how to load and organize? Thanks, [00:12:00.225] Tom, for all you do. I really appreciate for what you do, you and Orvis do for the sport. Be well and fish on.
Tom: Bob, you know, first of all, I don't know of a good video that talks about fly boxes and loading and organizing them, but I've been thinking of doing that myself, and I just haven't gotten around to it. But I get a lot of questions about loading and organizing a fly box. And really, most of that is just how your mind works and your own personal [00:12:30.125] preference and what kind of flies you carry. But as far as fly boxes for small nymphs, I'll tell you what, I use the little, Orvis foam, super light or ultralight fly boxes. And they have little strips and slits. And you put the flies in there. You can carry a lot of flies. And because nymphs are flat, you don't have to worry about too much clearance inside there.
And, you know, the bigger nymphs [00:13:00.115] are good to stick in those slots kind of backwards, so you back it into the slot. That's how I do it anyway. And then for the smaller nymphs, there's spaces in between the slots, and you might wanna just stick those smaller nymphs in the in the foam. But, you know, you'll figure it out. Just play around with it. If you have trouble getting your fingers in to grab those small flies, one of the things you might wanna use [00:13:30.144] are a pair of forceps or, you know, your pair of tweezers or something, because sometimes those small flies are hard to get out of those boxes. But I think just a standard foam box, they're light, they're durable, they float, is the best way to carry small nymphs.
Here's an email from Dan from California, "I really enjoy your podcast. I've got a question regarding trout flies. It seems with dry flies, significant effort is made to mimic the naturals as closely as [00:14:00.235] possible. That is adults, duns, spinners, emergers, cripples, emerger cripples, adult cripples, left wing cripples, right leg cripples, and more. However, with nymphs, the addition of totally unnatural hot spots are increasingly common and effective. Why the difference? Are hot spots on dry flies ineffective?"
Well, Dan, I'm not really sure. What I suspect is, because the dry flies that you fish are backlit, [00:14:30.500] unless the light is just right, the fish often don't see very much of the color in a dry fly. Of course, in a merger, they do because it's hanging below the surface film. But the fish don't see hot spots on dry flies as well. So, I think that they're probably more effective on a nymph where the fish sees the whole fly underwater instead of being backlit. And, you know, the emphasis with different [00:15:00.149] types of dry flies like duns, spinners, emergers, cripples, and so on, it's the silhouette there that's important because the fish is, again, seeing it against the sky. So, the silhouette is important.
Is color important in dry flies? It can be. Again, it depends on the light conditions, but, you know, you wanna be in the ballpark anyways. If it's there's a cream colored fly hatching, you don't wanna fish a black fly. How important the exact color is [00:15:30.269] is up for grabs as a matter of opinion and very, very subjective. But, you know, for emergers, you might try a hot spot. I know that often, a bright yellow hot spot on an emerging PMD to imitate the yellowish part of the body coming out can be important, can be an important trigger. So, you might experiment with some of those, bright, hot spots on dry flies and [00:16:00.340] see how well it works for you.
Here's an email from Lou from Australia, "It's time for me to invest in some new fly lines for both my 5 weight and 6 weight trout rods. My 9 foot, 5 weight is mostly used for dry dropper, and my 6 weight rod is mostly used for heavier double nymph rigs. And both rods are both leaning toward faster action. I usually use the Scientific Angler Amplitude Infinity for all of my trout fishing and clear tips for all of my ocean [00:16:30.240] streamer fishing, but now I see that you offer clear tips for the trout fly lines as well. Have you used the new clear tip lines for trout fishing? If so, what are your thoughts? Do you think they're advantageous when using an indicator nymph rig or are they more dry fly specific? Between the magnitude, trout expert, and Infinity tapers, do you have a favorite for either dry fly or indicator nymphing? I'm just trying to talk myself into buying the latest and greatest and ever more expensive fly line technology." [00:17:00.899]
Well, Lou, yes, I have switched over to the clear floating lines for all of my floating line saltwater fishing, and also for my carp fishing. Now, is it that important to have a clear line? I'm not so sure because, you know, the idea is you don't wanna throw your fly line down on top of a fish regardless of what color it is. The fish shouldn't see your fly line, shouldn't [00:17:30.009] see it land, and you need to position yourself in all kinds of fishing so that just your leader, and hopefully, just the tippet goes over the fish. And it's all about mass. And the clear lines do land just as hard as an opaque line on the water. And I think that's what spooks fish. However, if you cast, say, above a fish, or you got a fish swimming toward you in salt water and [00:18:00.154] it passes underneath the clear line to get to your fly, I think that that's probably an advantage because it's just not gonna be as visible to the fish. It's not totally invisible, but it's gonna be less visible. So, again, sometimes they're, an advantage. I personally, just like those lines because they cast really well and they float really well. And whether they're clear or not, I [00:18:30.055] guess, once in a while, they offer an advantage. But I just love the way the lines perform.
The one thing you you're gonna notice, you probably noticed it in your saltwater fishing, is you have to pay a lot more attention to where your fly lands. Because once the fly line lands in the water, you can't see the tip of your fly line, and it's tough to tell exactly where your fly is unless you paid really close attention to where the fly lands. And actually, I think that's made me a better angler because [00:19:00.194] I concentrate more on where my fly is landing, and where my fly line is landing. But I don't find it a big problem. Some guides don't like clear lines because they have trouble picking up where the fly is because they're not always looking when you cast. But I love the lines. I use the clear tip lines in trout fishing, and I think you should buy one.
Oh, and the difference between [00:19:30.265] the Magnitude Trout Expert and the Infinity tapers, the Infinity is a half-size heavier. So, you say that your rods are mainly fast action. I think you're gonna want to stick with the Infinity. The Trout Expert is a little bit more delicate because it's a little bit more lighter, but the Infinity is gonna be a little bit more versatile. It'll bring more of the action out on those rods. So, [00:20:00.400] it's not so much what kind of fishing you're doing, is what kind of action your rods have. So, if they're fairly stiff, that Infinity being half-size heavy is gonna bring a little bit more of the action out of the rod and will make casting slightly easier. The Magnitude Trout Expert, again, is gonna be more delicate. If you're fishing mostly dry flies at quite a long distance, it's gonna help because you can cast a [00:20:30.069] little bit longer line without the line splashing on the water. But, again, it's really a toss-up. Again, it depends on depends on which rod, what kind of rod you're using.
Scott: Hey, Tom. This is Scott from Donnie town, Pennsylvania. I was wondering if you have any tips or tricks on how to remove fly materials from a hook shank without damaging it. I've got some squirming worms where the silicone material is essentially disintegrated, [00:21:00.779] and I like to reuse the hooks and the beads. Appreciate everything you do for fly fishing. Learned so much from you. Listening to your podcast. Look forward to hearing from you. Thanks.
Tom: Scott, there are a number of ways of doing it. I think the best way to make sure that you don't damage the finish on the hook is to cut the head off of the fly and, you know, just unwind it like the [00:21:30.029] reverse way that you tied and unwind all the materials. You can take a razor blade to the whole shank of the hook, but you're going to take the chance of nicking the hook. Not that it's gonna hurt the strength of the hook, but it may ding the finish on the hook, and the hook is more likely to rust. But you can do it that way. I've seen people use a cautery tool, a cauterizing tool, and just running it down the back of the hook [00:22:00.059] and burning all the materials off. So, you can try a combination of that and a razor blade and see what works for you.
Here's an email from Matt, "I have two questions. I recently bought an 8 foot, 4 weight rod because it was a deal I couldn't pass up. I already have a 9 foot, 5 weight, a 6.5, and a 7.5, three weight. I'm wondering where that 4 weight would come in handy. Secondly, I just returned from a trip to the Arkansas River in Colorado where I spent three days [00:22:30.160] wade fishing. My first day, I got skunked, and I was using a 9 foot, 5 weight, number 14 chubby Chernobyl with 9 foot, 5X leader. The second day, I went elsewhere in the area fishing a small tributary of the Arkansas using a size 14 Humpy on my 3 weight with a 7.5 foot 5X leader, which I ended up catching five to six browns in a brook. The third day, I went back to the exact same areas on the Arkansas with the exact same setup as the first day and ended up catching 10 [00:23:00.039] to 12 browns. Why do you think they didn't eat that first date, but two days later they did?"
Well, I'll answer the easy question first, Matt. You'll find, with that 6.5 and 7.5 with 3 weight, that sometimes you have to make a longer cast, or maybe you're using a little bit bigger fly. And you'll find that they don't quite punch it out there because they don't have as much mass as a 4 weight. And so, those are the days when you wanna pick [00:23:30.170] up that 4 weight. You know, where conditions are maybe a little too delicate for a 5, but you wanna fish small flies, and you want less disturbance on the water, that's the time to fish your 4 weight, when you're making a little bit longer casts, I think, and bigger flies.
Regarding what happened to you in Arkansas, you know, if I could answer that question, I don't think I'd be a millionaire, but I'd be a lot better at guiding and educating people [00:24:00.299] than I am. I have no idea, but that will happen to you time and time again. You can go on a river and the fish just going crazy. And the next day you go and the conditions look the same and nothing happens. And that's just fishing. You know, it could be pressure changed, or the wind changed, or the amount of sunlight changed, the water temperature could have changed. A lot of things [00:24:30.339] that will put fish off. And trying to figure out all those variables is too complex a problem. Maybe AI will be able to help us someday. But I don't know why that happened. And if you ever figure it out, let me know.
Here's an email from Andrew from Northern Virginia, "Thanks for taking the time to read my email. Jump right into it. I've got a tip and a couple of questions. First for the tip, I've lost a couple wading belts stream [00:25:00.190] side now. For some reason, I tend to rush off to the river without buckling it and it gets stuck in the brush. I've found now, that if you leave the belt threaded through the rear belt loops, and then secure the buckle behind you when you store your waders, it'll still be hanging there at your waist instead of in the bushes somewhere if you forgot to clasp it at the river. Question one, I could use some help with streametry for smallmouth bass. I typically wade the Shenandoah River system for smallmouth in case that helps scope your answer [00:25:30.230] a bit. A lot of the books, videos, and articles out there tell you to cast streamers towards a bank at a 45 degree downstream and strip back. However, there's a lot of trout media out there that tells you to use an upstream cast as most baitfish will have their heads face downstream and not be able to fight the current upstream. Do you have any input on this? Should I try focusing on upstream angles and cast toward pockets and structure?
Question two, I recently got an inflatable [00:26:00.494] paddle board, great podcast on that, by the way, and I've had a ton of trouble catching largemouth off it. As in many trips, zero bass. I know there are bass in my local lakes. However, it being the Northern Virginia DC metro area, I'm sure they get hammered by conventional and bait anglers. I've tried streamers, poppers, Wigglies, craws, etc. Any tips for largemouth bass fishing these pressured waters? Should I just move to Montana?"
Well, Andrew, that's a great tip [00:26:30.234] on the waiter belt. Thank you. Because I've lost a few myself. And I never thought of doing that. But, yeah, from now on, when I take my waders off, I'm gonna buckle the buckle behind me, and then I won't lose it. Or if I stop for nature's call, I might do the same thing, because I often tend to forget to buckle my waiter belt, and then I after I go off in the bushes, and then I lose my waiter belt. So, that's a great tip. [00:27:01.115]
Regarding your streamer retrieves, I would not get dogmatic about the way you retrieve streamers for any fish. Don't just cast at 45 degrees downstream and strip back just because the books and the videos tell you to do that. In any given day, the small mouth might prefer a faster retrieve, a slower retrieve. They might like the fly coming at them from [00:27:30.095] upstream. I know that everybody tells you that prey doesn't go at predators. But as I've often said, when a baitfish or crayfish gets dislodged, if there's any current at all, they're gonna have to swim downstream because they can't swim upstream to get away. They don't have enough speed going upstream. So, I would try all angles. I would try straight upstream, straight downstream. I would dead drift your streamers with an occasional [00:28:00.335] twitch. I would retrieve them fast. I would retrieve them slow and steady. Every day could be different. So, mix it up, and I think you're gonna have better fishing.
Regarding your bass fishing, you know, bass likes to get really crowded if they have a lot of boat traffic or a lot of fishing traffic. Often, the bass don't feed as much during the day, and they kind of hide away from all the disturbance. So, my [00:28:30.565] best advice would be to go very early in the morning, like first light, when the bass are more likely to be out cruising in more open water instead of really close to structure, or just before dark, or even into the dark. Probably, you don't wanna be fishing a paddle board at night. But early in the morning, you know, when it first starts getting light, half hour before sunrise, I would try that. And that's often a really good time for a surface fly. But, you [00:29:00.140] know, in the middle of the day with a fly, it's gonna be tougher than using the conventional bass lures. They get down to the fish, and they seem to appeal to the fish more when the fish are deeper or a little bit shyer. So, I would try that. I would try different times a day and see if that makes a difference.
Here's an email from Griffin from Maine, "I've dipped my toe into the world of striper fishing on the Coast Of Maine this summer. I'm thinking about buying [00:29:30.009] a dedicated striper rod and would like some advice. I'm thinking of going with Clearwater 9 weight, but I'm unsure if I should buy the 9 foot or the 10 foot rod. Could you share some of the things you think should be considered when deciding which length to buy? All of my fishing is from shore."
Well, Griffin, if all your fishing is from shore, I'd go with a 10 footer. You're gonna be able to cast a little bit further from shore. And often, when you're wading a beach, you got rocks behind you and you might tick [00:30:00.099] your fly on the rocks and dull the hook. I remember walking down a beach at Martha's Vineyard one time, and I could see sparks. There were a bunch of fly fishers fishing the beach, and I could see sparks up and down the beach where their flies were hitting their rocks behind them and sparking. So, I'd go the 10 footer. It's gonna give you a little more distance, and it's gonna give you a little bit more back cast reach.
Here's an email [00:30:30.134] from Clint from Northern New Hampshire, "I have a question on leaders as I know you enjoy leader questions. I'm now getting into fishing traditional wet flies, and perhaps, some soft hackles for trout using a 9 foot, 5 weight rod. What type of leader would you recommend? Seems similar to swinging streamers. Should a traditional 9 foot taper leader, or go more towards a shorter 3 to 4 foot floral level line such as 4X to 6X to get them further down in the water column?"
Well, [00:31:00.494] Clint, when I fish wet flies and soft tackles, I find that I use the same leader as I do for dry fly fishing. I think that because you're swinging that fly in front of the fish, you wanna keep the leader or the line a little bit further away from the fish. And a 3 to 4 foot piece of straight, tippet material is gonna make that fly line land pretty close to the flies. So, I would use your standard, 9 foot leader, and [00:31:30.384] I would also fish two of them, at least, two of them. Because it seems that fishing flies in multiples, when swinging flies is often more effective than just a single fly.
Here's an email from Sasha from Fayetteville, Arkansas, "Hello, Tom. I was reading Joe Brooks' book called "Trout Fishing", and he mentioned a bizarre floating that he used for his delicate dry flies called Amadou. I'd never heard of it before, and the book said that it came from a hard-bodied, [00:32:00.095] polypore fungus, and was his favorite method to dry his smaller flies. You've mentioned a couple times before on the podcast that you like to forage for wild mushrooms. And I wanted to know if you've ever tried using or making Amadou. And if you have, are there any advantages to using Amadou over standard dry fly floatants? I'm also passionate about mushroom hunting, so it'll be fun to hunt mushrooms for floating and food. I'd love to know your thoughts. Thank you and Orvis for promoting conservation and sustainability." [00:32:30.585]
Well, Sasha, Amadou actually comes from a very common mushroom or group of mushrooms. There are probably lots and lots of species, but if you see the tinder polypore or a hoof fungus that grow on the side of trees, you know, it's a really hard fungus, really hard polypore that grows on the sides of trees and looks kind of like a horse's hoof or a cow's hoof. Have I tried it? Yes. [00:33:00.154] Have I tried it successfully? No. I watched some videos on YouTube from Eastern Europe about how people make Amadou, and I tried it and it's a lot of prep. It's a lot of work cutting the right part of the fungus out, and then you have to pound it and soak it. And I may not have had exactly a big enough mushroom, but I finally gave up. I wanted to make [00:33:30.095] Amadou too, and I finally gave up. It was much more work than just putting a bunch of mushrooms in a frying pan and eating them for dinner. And these aren't edible, by the way. They're very tough.
But you can try it if you want, and there are some videos, on YouTube about making Amadou. Have I used Amadou before that I bought in a fly shop? Yes, I have used it. And it's not as good as a commercial fly [00:34:00.035] floating. Because all Amadou does is dry off your flies. So, the commercial float and desiccant powders, will both remove water from the fly, and they'll treat it with a little bit of almost microscopic layer of silicone that helps them float. Amadou will only dry them off. So, it's a good way of drying flies off. And if you don't wanna use commercial floaters, it'll work, but it's not gonna be as good. And a really good [00:34:30.715] method is to first dry the fly off with Amadou, and then dip it in your floating. Because that'll remove the water. You know, often we just take a fly that's been drowned and we squeeze it in our T-shirt or whatever to try to get the water off or shake it or false cast it. But Amadou will suck all that water out of it. So, it's cool stuff, and it's very traditional. And I would give it a try.
Matt: [00:35:00.079] Hi, Tom. It's Matt from Northern California. I have two questions for you. One is that I recently fished in Alpine Lake for the first time. When I got there, I was the only one there, and I found the best way to approach the fish I saw was from in the water. Once some other people showed up, I noticed that nobody else fishing was prepared to even set foot in the water. So, I was wondering if there was some kind of etiquette or some kind of, [00:35:31.929] you know, prevailing wisdom that you shouldn't be weeding in an alpine lake. Perhaps it disturbs the fish. I will say that I saw a lot of big fish, and I was able to land two really nice, big brook trout or big for this area anyway. My second question is that I recently got an old bamboo fly rod at an estate sale. I know nothing about bamboo rods. Did a little [00:36:00.230] googling, figured out it was made between 1947 and 1952. It came with two different length tips. I don't know if that's typical or not, to make it either 8, 6, or 9 foot. From best I can tell, it's a 5 weight or a 6 weight. Anyway, I was wondering if there's anything I need to know about handling this rod while fishing to avoid damaging it. For example, when I first got a euro nymphing rod, [00:36:30.530] it took me until my third tip to figure out how to fish it effectively without breaking the tip. So, I wanna avoid any damage with this rod. Is there anything I need to know about fishing bamboo in particular to avoid damaging it in any way? Thanks so much."
Tom: So, Matt, I guess it would depend on the lake, but I don't think there's a real etiquette of fishing an alpine lake other than you probably [00:37:00.204] don't wanna wade where other people are already fishing. You know, because that's gonna disturb the water a little bit more than standing on shore. But if you're there first and you're waiting and other people come and get close to you and fish on shore, well, too bad for them, they fish too close to you. But, you know, if you go to an alpine lake and you see a bunch of people fishing from shore, give them a wide berth. You know, I think it's the same etiquette that you would have on a river. You know, you just don't [00:37:30.135] get in the water close to someone else. But wading can offer advantages. You can get closer to the fish, and if you're careful, sometimes the fish will swim very close to you and you can actually see them. So, I don't think there's anything wrong with wading. And I mean, you can check with some local anglers in that lake to see if it's not considered cool, but I don't think there is any kind of etiquette other than, do unto others as you would [00:38:00.144] have them do unto you.
Regarding that old bamboo rod, you know, from that era, it was probably a varnished rod because... That could be an impregnated rod, actually. So, there's two ways of keeping moisture out of the inside of a bamboo rod. Because bamboo is a wood product and it will absorb [00:38:30.505] water and it will swell and warp. So, in the old days, they used animal glues, which didn't take to water very well. And they had to varnish the entire surface of the rod to keep water from getting inside it. And in an older rod, if it's a varnish rod, you'll see lots of varnish cracks. Probably, that rod, in order to make it [00:39:00.065] really durable, would need to be stripped, totally stripped, and revarnished. All the guides would have to come off, and you have to strip all the old varnish off, and then apply a new layer of varnish.
If it's an old Orvis rod from that era, it was probably impregnated, and that is a process that was developed by West Jordan during World War II when they were making bamboo ski poles for the tenth mountain division [00:39:30.675] during World War II. And they impregnated them with a resin, with Bakelite resin, so that the bamboo ski poles would last longer. They wouldn't warp or fall apart. And then after World War II, they started using that for fly rods. So, an impregnated rod doesn't need to be varnished. And most modern rods don't use animal glues, and actually, don't need to be varnished because [00:40:00.054] the outer layer of a bamboo rod is pretty impervious. It's a hard, silicone material. It's pretty impervious. And so, you'll see the modern bamboo rods, are not varnished because they use synthetic glues that are waterproof, water resistant.
So, anyway, really depends. If you really wanna use that rod, I would have an expert look at it. Maybe someone in a fly shop that knows bamboo rods. And [00:40:30.045] then, you know, the most important thing is don't put a ton of stress on an older bamboo rod. Again, some of those glue joints might be a little suspect. And especially, don't ever put it away wet, because the water will get into the old, animal glues if they were used. And probably, don't use things like split shot on. And I know people telling me that bamboo rods are fine to use with big flies and split [00:41:00.005] shot. But, you know, those older rods weren't as durable as modern bamboo rods. So, I'd be careful of it.
And use it, it was meant to be used, but just most important thing is don't put it away wet, and also don't leave it laying against a wall or anything. Take it apart and put it back into its tube, into its sack, and leave the tube open [00:41:30.409] when you're at home in case there's some condensation inside that tube. But unlike graphite rods, bamboo rods can take a set if you leave them leaning against something. Graphite rods, it's not an issue. That never happens with them. But old bamboo rods, you wanna always put it away and have it straight up and down. Some people say, store it straight up and down. Some people say, lay it on its side. I don't [00:42:00.070] know which the correct is. I always leave mine standing straight up so that gravity isn't bothering them. But, yeah, other than that, go out and fish it and have fun with it.
All right. That is the fly box for this week. Let's go talk to Craig Matthews about the magic of pheasant tail. Well, I am really pleased to have as my guest today, Craig Matthews. Craig, welcome to the podcast.
Craig: [00:42:30.429] Oh, thanks, Tom. It's good to be with you.
Tom: And we have we have known each other for, I was thinking, probably about 40 years.
Craig: It's been over 40 years. I think we first met in the first part of, certainly, mid 1980s.
Tom: Yeah. And at the show in California, you used to go every year to the "Ed Rice Show", and we hung out there. And tell people...
Craig: I had brown hair back then.
Tom: Yeah, me too. Tell [00:43:00.130] people a little bit about your history. I mean, starting with Michigan, what you did in Michigan, and West Yellowstone.
Craig: I grew up in, Grand Rapids, Michigan. And I went to Michigan State University. Got an undergraduate degree. Went back for a couple of master's degrees. Became involved in law enforcement, and that's a story in and of itself. Never intending to become a police officer. But one day, [00:43:30.130] my old college roommate said, "You know you ought to get involved in law enforcement and you work every other day or you work a three-day work week. And with a master's and experience in law enforcement, you can teach law enforcement in a small community college. And heck, you can work two or three days a week and hunt and fish the rest." And with that, two days later, I went down and they hired me. And the next thing I know, I'm in the police academy, and then I'm driving a police car and I'm a police officer, which [00:44:00.965] I was involved in for over thirteen years.
I came to West Yellowstone as the police chief in early 1979, and my wife came as a police dispatcher. And we were gonna be in in Yellowstone Country for a year or two, and then go back and work in a big police department. And in the meantime, we started our fly shop. And Orvis was one of our first contracts. With John Harder and [00:44:30.315] signed on to tie wholesale flies for Orvis and LL Bean and some other outlets using disabled handicapped fly tires. And then we opened up full retail in 1982. And at one time, there were four Blue Ribbon Fly Shops. There was three in Montana and one in Mountain Home, Arkansas.
Tom: Yeah. So, you're out of the fly shop now. You're officially retired?
Craig: Officially retired. Yeah, I still do a fair amount of writing, and [00:45:00.625] I do some conservation work with 1% for the Planet. And I cofounded that with Yvon Chouinard, the old owner of Patagonia. He and I became friends back in the early 1980s when he walked into our fly shop and said, "Why don't you have Patagonia clothing in here?" And I said, "God, I've tried for years for it." And he said, "You're a working fly shop. You guys are tying flies in here." And he said, "Sticks out as handy." He said, "I'm Yvon Chouinard. I own Patagonian, and you are [00:45:30.175] a Patagonia dealer," and we became instant friends.
Tom: And I know you've done a ton of work in conservation, I mean, in lots and lots and lots of areas, which I really admire. You do...
Craig: Well, thank you. It's been a lot of fun. And with that, you know, we cofounded together, Yvon and I, 1% for the Planet. It'll be our twenty fifth anniversary. And during that time, we're [00:46:00.144] gonna break a billion dollars in conservation giving to environmental and conservation causes. So, it just really tickles me to see how that's grown by leaps and bounds.
Tom: Yeah. I mean, that's incredible. And people might think, how come you got this guy that works with Patagonia on "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast"? Because you're competitors. And you know what? We all really admire Patagonia and, you know, we've worked together on conservation projects. And, yeah, we're competitors [00:46:30.425] in wading boots and waders, but they're a friendly competitor.
Craig: Sure. And, you know, we're all about the environment and wild trout and cold water and conservation. And, you know, you form alliances of like-minded businesses, and you work towards conserving those valuable resources that we all come to know and love.
Tom: Yeah. It's great that the industry works together on those things.
Craig: Darn right, yep.
Tom: But we're gonna talk about something [00:47:00.230] geeky today, right? We're gonna talk about pheasant tail of all things. A whole podcast on pheasant tail, right? You think we could think we can fill it up?
Craig: Oh, yeah. You know, in our in our previous... We've written three books together, Yvon Morrow and I. And in our preview previous book, "Simple Fly Fishing", we made the case to replace a lot of what we feel are necessary gear in fly fishing with knowledge and technique. And [00:47:30.659] really, since that book, we've done just that, we feel. So, in our "Little Pheasant Tail Simplicity" book, that's the title of our new book, which will be released by Patagonia Press, on October 7th, we propose that the barbs of a ringneck pheasant, a cock ringneck pheasant can be used to tie the bodies of nymphs, soft hackles, dry flies, and mergers, terrestrials like beetles and ants, and midges, [00:48:00.320] that are equally or more effective than the other thousands of flies that you can find at fly shops.
Tom: Yeah, yeah. It's an amazing material. And most people know it as a nymph material, obviously. But it's great on other kinds of patterns and, you know, dry flies, especially. But why do you think pheasant [00:48:30.210] tail is so magical?
Craig: Well, number one, it's easy to obtain. Number two, it sinks like a rock if you do not put float now. Once you put float on it, it flows like a cork. It absorbs water, but it also absorbs fly float. So, with that, you can tie a mergers and dry flies, mayflies, caddis, midges, all kinds of dry flies with it. It has the proper coloration to imitate [00:49:00.099] so many natural insects, as they emerge or after they emerge. In other words, you know, mayflies that you sit and watch, pale morning duns emerge here out West or green drakes, and they're all that real dark, reddish, brown color just prior to emergence. And quite often, they get stuck in the shuck, and they maintain that color until they can escape that nymphal or pupil shuck. And it's readily available. For some people, you know, dubbing is a hard thing to do. [00:49:30.159] Some guys and gals just can't dub well. But with pheasant tail, you tie on a fiber or two in your upper body and you don't have to worry about dubbing. So, it really works out well.
Tom: And what is it? But there's lots of materials that will absorb ply floating. And why is pheasant tail so effective?
Craig: Well, I think a lot of it's that frilly nature. It's real. [00:50:00.224] If you look at it when it's in water, those little barbs and the barbules that come off them, they move just like a natural. They'll move in the water. And it so imitates so many of the macroinvertebrates that we're trying to imitate with fly patterns. And I think it's just especially deadly that way. It's also very fragile. That's a drawback of it. But if you reinforce it with your tying thread or with other ribbing, [00:50:30.135] it becomes, basically, indestructible.
Tom: What what's the best way of reinforcing a pheasant tail body? Because it is fragile if you don't do something with it.
Craig: What I do for my dry flies... And I've written the dry fly portion of our new book. Morrow writes the portion on nymphs, and Yvon writes the soft tackle portion. But what I do in my patterns because I want them to float either on or [00:51:00.054] in the surface film or slightly below where fish are taking the natural, I reinforce it simply by my working thread. In other words, I tie the barbules on, the barbs on, and I wrap them forward to form the thorax, the body of the fly. Then with my working thread, I tie it off and I go back in open wraps, open ribs back to the tail or shuck, and then back to the upper end of the abdomen where [00:51:30.045] the thorax will start. Just simply, basically, making an X with your thread over the material, it reinforces it. A lot of people go, "God, you'll break your 16 on fly time." You won't. You never break the thread. You could have been doing it wrong.
Tom: So, you don't put our layer of superglue before you wrap it or anything like that?
Craig: No, none of us actually do on all the patterns. I suppose you could, but really, I see no need in it.
Tom: [00:52:00.264] If you cross wrap it with your tying thread.
Craig: Yeah. The other day, I caught 17 good fish, most of which were decent, brown trout with those big, old teeth of theirs. And I caught 17 fish, and finally, I had a fiber break. And I'm kind of proud of that. I'm going, "Oh, I'm gonna bring this home and put it in my fly fishing journal, taped with all my other flies that have been a success." And it's like, you know, being a cheapskate as I am, I just took my [00:52:30.005] little nippers out, nipped that little tag end that had come undone, probably by being toothed by a big brown trout, I just nipped that off and kept fishing.
Tom: I'm gonna start doing that because I usually counter wrap it with wire, but I'm gonna start trying that method.
Craig: Yeah. And wire adds a little bit of weight, obviously. And if you want your flies to sink a tad, then of course, you use wire. But if you want them to flow really well, I stress, just use [00:53:00.079] your working nylon, your working thread.
Tom: So, tell people a little bit about some of the dry fly patterns that you use with pheasant tail.
Craig: You know, it's interesting, if I can tell a little story. And this book is full of stories that we have. You know, again, Morrow writing stories on his nymph fishing and talking about technique and that sort of thing. Same with Yvon and myself and our observations. And [00:53:31.750] the fly patterns, basically, that I really enjoy fishing, and I've come up with a design. Number one, is a mayfly emerger. And I came out with that fishing spring creek, which Nick Lyons immortalized in his iconic books of "Spring Creek", and everybody should read that book. I think it's one of the greatest books written on fly fishing. And I'm laying in the weeds watching these three, great, big 20, 21, 22 inches within 4 feet [00:54:00.099] of me. I could not fool these fish.
So, I left my rod in the vehicle one day, and I snuck up on these guys, and I'm nose to nose with them. And I'm watching these fish. And what they're doing is they're taking emerging pale morning dunemps. And as they're in the film, just as they're trying to escape the shuck and become fully formed duns, and a lot of them were still trailing the shuck, and the coloration, that bright yellow when they first emerged, that yellowish orange [00:54:30.280] that turns really, basically, a dull yellow after they've been exposed to air for a few seconds... But just at the surface film, they were peeking that yellow out, and they're struggling with their legs and they're trying to get their wings free to shuck, and those fish would only take those flies with that peaking little piece of yellow coming out of the nympho shuck.
Now, I'm a big believer in the fact that most of the time, coloration is not a big deal. In that that case, it was. [00:55:00.730] And I smiled to myself. And I tell the story in the book. I smiled to myself knowing I was gonna use pheasant tail for the abdomen, and then I was gonna put a little dubbing, a thorax dubbing that would closely imitate the natural, trying to escape the nymphal shuck. I came back the next day, and I'm not saying I caught every fish I cast to, but I sure did a whole lot better with this little merger pattern that I came up with, which has a blend and emerging wing [00:55:30.144] of one CDC feather, and a little bit of parapost, Zelon material along with a shuck. And it was just been deadly for me. And I tied in from pale morning duns, pale evening duns, betas, you know, green drakes, brown drakes, gray drakes. It works seemingly on almost any mayfly emergence that I encounter where the fish get super selective.
Tom: So, the shuck is Antron or Zelon. What color do you like on the shuck, or does it vary?
Craig: [00:56:00.565] Years ago, we dye it, and we came out with a color called Mayfly Brown. And while most fly tires, you know, we're all a little crazy. We all have 15,000 different colors of everything. Mayfly Brown really imitates the shuck of almost every Mayfly that's emerging. And I have had old customers that use white Zelon and insist that it works better than Mayfly Brown. [00:56:30.164] I also use red. I have a Coachman red that's a brilliant red that I use that seems to work really well. And quite often, you can see the red shuck even underwater better than you can the wing.
Tom: So, the shuck is it tied down a curved hook, or a straight, dry fly hook?
Craig: You know, you can use a curved hook. I tend to use a straight hook, but on some of my emerging Mitch patterns, I use the curve hook.
Tom: Yep. So, [00:57:00.025] okay, the shuck is mayfly brown, Zelon, or parapost, or something. The body is pheasant tail, obviously, the abdomen.
Craig: Correct.
Tom: And then you put a bright, yellow, like a hot spot on it.
Craig: Yes. Yep, exactly. For the merging color on the thorax.
Tom: Yep. And then your CDC wing, does it go back over the body, or does it go forward like some of these?
Craig: It goes slightly forward. It's cocked slightly [00:57:30.005] forward over the eye of the hook. And the reason I do that is, you know, observing thousands of mayflies emerging, it seems like whenever those wings finally break free of the shuck, they poke slightly forward over the hook eye for a short time. And then just like caddis, you know, these traveling sedges that we fish this time of the year on lakes, you swear they're great, big mayfly duns because when they pop out of the shuck, they pop those wings right [00:58:00.155] straight up for exposure to the air before they fold them tent-like. They may have them straight up for several seconds, same thing with winter midgets. A lot of people go, "Oh, my God, look at the blue, little bluing olives emerging. Look at those little sailboats." Well, emerging midges in the winter tend to poke those wings right straight up for a few seconds before they fold them tent-like over their bodies. So, I tie them forward a little bit on all the patterns.
Tom: That's interesting. And do you put any hackle at all on it?
Craig: No. [00:58:30.344]
Tom: No.
Craig: I never use any... I've got so doggone much hackle. I collect hackle. I love it. You know, Henry Hoffman before he sold the whiting and all those beautiful necks, the minor necks, and God, I've got hundreds of them. But I very seldom... I can't tell you the last time we used that. I guess, tying Griffith's Gnat earlier this spring, I used hackle.
Tom: Well, that's fascinating about those caddis and midge [00:59:00.385] wings, and even the mayfly wings that they tilt forward or upright a little bit. That's pretty cool.
Craig: And, you know, that's a case that we try to make in our book too is patient observation. I am not a patient person. If anything, elk hunting and hunting spring turkeys has taught me a little bit of patience in permit fishing. But, you know, quite often, I try to sit on the bank before I even string my rod and watch what's going on. Watch for fish, [00:59:30.065] watch for insects, you know, which way the wind's blowing, the whole nine yards. And it just pays such dividends.
Tom: It does.
Craig: Rather than jump in and start flailing the water, just to sit on the bank and determine what's going on.
Tom: Yeah. It's absolutely, as you said, you left your rod in the car. Leave your rod in the car some days and just creep up and watch what they do.
Craig: Yeah, focus, concentration, and observation are really the keystone factors, I think, [01:00:00.525] to successful fly fishing.
Tom: Yeah, absolutely. So, how about...
Craig: We always say, do what the river tells you to do because the river, the streams, the lakes, they all read like an open book. If you sit and observe, it just unfolds right in front of your eyes.
Tom: Yeah, if you go to a river with a plan, chances are the plan is gonna fall through pretty quickly.
Craig: Every time.
Tom: Even if you know the river. I mean, I have a little creek in my backyard, and I cannot [01:00:30.005] predict what's gonna happen until I go down there and look around a little bit.
Craig: Yeah. You know, I've been on the Madison River over 160 days since February.
Tom: Wow.
Craig: And last night, I go, before I even left my vehicle, before I even drove out of my garage, I tied on a pink lady, sparkled them, because I knew I'd see EPRS, the pink ladies emerging, and I didn't want my leader and tippet to slide all the way through the guides. I carry my rod [01:01:00.110] totally put together in my vehicle because there's a lot of room in it. And I get to the river, and I'm all excited. I get there, and I sit on the bank, and there's fish rising, and I go, "God dang it. They're on midgets." So, I gotta redo my 5X tip and go to 6X and go from a size 16 pink lady sparkled on to a size 24 emerging midge.
Tom: Oh, God. That's no fun.
Craig: Yeah, but it caught fish.
Tom: Wonder [01:01:30.099] if the pink lady would have worked.
Craig: You know, I tried it later on, and I caught one fish. They're still kind of looking for pink lady.
Tom: Yeah. So, tell us more about some of the, maybe the more unusual patterns in the book that use pheasant tail.
Craig: Oh, God. Like our X Caddis, for years, you know, we've tied our X Caddis with a completely dub body.
Tom: Right, yeah.
Craig: And I wanna clarify one thing [01:02:00.139] here. Everybody credits me for inventing the X Caddis, it was my wife, Jackie, who came up to John Juracek, our old partner and I one day, and she said, you know, "You guys created a great fly and a Sparkle Dun for a mayfly. Why don't you the same thing with a caddis." And we said, "What do you mean?" She said, "Just put a shuck out the back end of a caddis, simple body, and a deer hair or elk hair wing and no hackle." And I got it work like a dream, and it's become probably one of the best-selling and most effective [01:02:30.510] caddis patterns in Yellowstone Country.
Tom: Well, it's my go to anywhere in the world when there's caddis there too.
Craig: And that's what Ryan's always said, it's a great mayfly emerger too. But, again, you know, tied with pheasant tail with just a little dubbing hot spot with the thorax peeking out from that dark, dark brown body, you tie the X Caddis. Zelon Midge is another one. I'll take one or two strands of pheasant tail fiber [01:03:00.175] instead of dubbing and figure eight, and really running into proportion problems because a lot of people can't dub finely enough to tie a 22, 24, or 26 midge. With pheasant tail, one fiber or two fibers, you can figure eight around the wing with pheasant tail fiber. And, again, it floats like a cork. It's durable, and it really represents... There's so many colors in a pheasant tail. You know, whether it's black, there's also like a natural [01:03:30.344] dark olive, there's a light rusty brown, there's copper. You know, you can pick a half a dozen pheasant tail fibers and be set for life on all kinds of different colorations.
So, you know, the little Zelon Midge is another pattern that's innovative, and it's very effective and very easy to tie a beetle with a pheasant tail body. People say, "Why do you put a body on a foam beetle?" And, you know, believe it or not, a [01:04:00.135] pheasant tail underbody on a foam beetle, I'll put, maybe five or six wraps and make a kind of a hefty, beefy body, and then I'll fold the foam over the top of it, puts two little rubber legs. And when I cast a beetle, I want it to plop. I don't want it to land lightly on the surface. You want it to really force what I call a splat cast. You want that fly to plop and splat, because quite often, these big, browns, that's what they come to. They don't see the beetle initially, [01:04:30.425] but they hear that sound. And you'll see them come from underneath the bank and just roar over and grab that big, old beetle.
So, I use it for the underbody on our foam beetles. We tie a pheasant tail beetle. Yvon, of course, ties all his soft tackles and his flimps, and that's become one of his go-to flies, flimps, and his dry fly soft tackle. Morrow used his pheasant tail for his caddis nymphs and his mayfly nymphs, and a couple of just all-purpose [01:05:00.335] nymphs. So, you know, this book has 17 new patterns that we introduced that are so easy to tie and effective, and anybody can tie them because there's so little dubbing involved or hackle. So, it's just a no brainer, and these patterns really work well. I should also mention, within the book, there's a QR code, which I'm kind of proud of. You scan it with your phone, and you can see us tying every one of the fly patterns [01:05:30.425] as well as fishing every one of the fly patterns, catching fish on them, and talking technique and strategy while we're fishing the fly patterns. And I think that little segment is really invaluable to most anglers.
Tom: Oh, yeah. So, I got a question for you. When you said five or six wraps on the beetle, do you mean five or six wraps back and forth over the body?
Craig: I should clarify. Take five or six depending on the beetle. I tie a size... Eight [01:06:00.045] beetle, just a huge beetle, and I'll use as many as eight fibers. And I just wrap forward. I don't wrap back. I just wrap forward, then I wrap back and forward again with my working thread to reinforce those fibers.
Tom: Now, for a big fly like that, you really need a center tail, don't you, from a...?
Craig: You really do, yeah. And you're really looking for, and same thing with Yvon's, soft, tackle pattern. You know, we use Hungarian partridge. [01:06:30.510] And you really are looking for wild birds. Birds, particularly late season, pheasants they've got those fibers that'll be fully 3 and sometimes 4 inches long off each side of the center tail. And same thing with Hungarian partridge, you know, you buy a hunt that's a pen raised bird, and you think, "God, it's beautiful." And then you get it home, and all the feathers are pecked because they keep them in cages. So, if you can find wild birds or if you're a hunter, save those wild birds. The feathers are just [01:07:00.010] gorgeous, particularly late season. The flues and the fibers are full, and they just wrap so nicely.
Tom: Yeah. And if you're a hunter or if you know a pheasant hunter, you wanna make sure to ask them to save just the, what's it? Three or four center tails?
Craig: Yeah. There's two main center tails in a pheasant. And, you know, if you don't mind pulling over on the side of the road with your emergency flashers running out and picking up [01:07:30.000] a roadkill, that works too. I never pass up a good roadkill.
Tom: No. Yeah, I a guy once on a hosted trip that brought a whole bunch of pheasant skins that a friend of his had given him, and he skinned them out, and he brought them to give to people. And he said, "Do you want any of these?" And I said, "Hang on a second." I just pulled out all the center tails and said, "Now, you can give the rest to the other people.
Craig: [01:08:00.289] The other people. You can never have enough center tail feathers. And I don't know why.
Tom: You can't.
Craig: In my tying room right now, I counted them up the other day because we're gonna give them out at our tying demonstrations. I have over 600 center pheasant tails.
Tom: And if you if you're in a fly shop and you're looking at, you know, pheasant tails on a rack, on the wall, or whatever, you wanna look for ones that have the reddish, brown on both sides, because that's...
Craig: [01:08:30.899] Both sides. That's correct. And some of the late season birds will almost exhibit kind of a coppery purple, hue to them. They're absolutely gorgeous when you wrap them on as a body.
Tom: And, you know, if you can't get center tails, you can use the other stuff, but they're just the most useful.
Craig: You can. The other tail feathers are usable, but only, generally one side, whether it's on the left side of the center or the right side. One of those side feathers [01:09:00.319] will give you enough barbs to be able to tie.
Tom: Yeah. And generally, smaller flies too. You can't tie a really big fly with those other beds, but they'll still work.
Craig: Yep, correct. It will still work, you bet.
Tom: Now, I got a question for you that I have observed over the years. I wanna know if you've observed the same thing. You can buy pheasant dyed olive and brown and kind of bleached ginger. And honestly, I don't think they work as well as the natural [01:09:30.364] color. Have you have you seen that, too?
Craig: Oh, dude, I totally agree. And what happens, in the dyeing process... I mean, I used to dye hundreds and hundreds of complete tail assemblies, and we'd sell them. But the problem is you destroy, you take out all the natural resiliency of that that fiber by dying or bleaching it. You actually eat up some of the little, tiny, frilly, barbules off each barb. And it just [01:10:00.114] destroys the whole feather as well as the concept of why you're using the material in the first place.
Tom: So, that's why they don't work as well, the dyeing process.
Craig: I think so. And, you know, if you wanna get that a light olive hue or yellow, just use your working thread as that color. And again, when you wrap through to reinforce those barbules, you'll get a little bit of the yellow or olive or whatever that you want. But trust me, better than 90% of the emerging mayflies [01:10:30.215] are that reddish brown color when they emerge.
Tom: They are. Amazing stuff.
Craig: It is. Yeah. And, you know, I've always been shocked at how few dry fly patterns have been designed with pheasant tail. And I know... Oh, there's a gentleman from these, Seth Cavarretta, who's a heck of a fly patternist. And he just featured a dry fly tied with pheasant tail. And, you know, I see it on Instagram and I applaud him. It's like, "God, it's the first one I've seen." [01:11:00.225] I know, Skewies designed a spinner pattern with a rusty center tail feather because he said, you know, the spinners in Great Britain that he was tying in The UK kind of had a sherry, wine color to him. So, he used pheasant tail, and that's been hundred years ago, pretty much. And we always slap ourself on the back thinking, "Yeah, we, designed all these slides for the shimmering shuck. And boy, are we hot [01:11:30.055] stuff." And then you read Colonel EW Hardingin 1937 talking about tying flies with a trailing shimmering shuck. Anyway, I always like to say, originality, fly tying is merely undetected plagiarism. It's been done before.
Tom: Yeah. That's for sure. Oh, you know, the baton kill, a traditional fly, when the rusty spinners are out, is a pheasant tail dry. That's been... Isn't [01:12:00.015] used much anymore, but it used to be a big fly. A pheasant tail parachute, I remember John Hardy used to fish that a lot. And..
Craig: Oh, God, yeah. John used to come in and go through our pheasant tails and pick them out. And he said, you know, "I probably have a thousand of these at home, but you can never have enough of them."
Tom: You can never have enough. And you go through them. You go through a pheasant tail pretty quickly if you're tying a bunch of flies.
Craig: You sure do. You sure do, yep.
Tom: Luckily, it's a material that [01:12:30.324] will probably always be available because there'll always be pheasants and pheasant hunters. And...
Craig: And when you look at the population issue, South Dakota is covered with pheasants, as is Montana. It's gonna be a great bird hunting year.
Tom: Do you think, when somebody buys pheasant in a fly shop, where do they come from?
Craig: Most of those are from domestically raised birds.
Tom: Raised for food and stuff like that.
Craig: Yeah. You know, in South Dakota, you can hunt wild birds, but they always [01:13:00.505] drive around unbeknownst to you before you get up in the morning and they're releasing pen raised birds. And you always wonder why you're pointing dog goes on point and he's nose to nose with several birds, and you think, "That's not a wild bird." Of course, it isn't wild. Some of them still have blinders on.
You know, there's one comment I wanna say too about our book, because a lot of people think [01:13:30.185] it's gonna be for beginners, but it's not intended for beginners, and it's not intended for gear junkies who believe that the secret to fly fishing success lies in buying even more equipment and flies. And it's not for serious anglers who don't tie flies because you can't buy some of the flies that we describe in our book. But it's for the person who knows, you know, that restricting options forces [01:14:00.045] you to be creative. And I always like to say, if you understand that limiting your fly options and relying on skill, knowledge, and technique leads not only to success and satisfaction, then then this book is really for you.
Tom: Yeah. I got a look at a proof, a PDF proof of the book with the pictures and everything. And I thought it was really, really cool and helpful. And I'm gonna get a copy as soon as it comes out because it's got some...
Craig: Thank you. And, you know, I [01:14:30.135] should say, every penny of the sale, we donate all our proceeds to conservation causes, Yvon, Marrow, and I. So, that's the fun part about writing a book like this is.
Tom: That's awesome.
Craig: ...to donate to causes that you really believe in.
Tom: Good for you, guys. Good for you, guys. Oh, I wanted to ask you about that Zelon Midge. Can you describe that pattern for people? I know they can look it up on the Internet, but they don't.
Craig: Exactly. You know, it [01:15:00.125] is so easy to tie on. It has a shuck. Again, a shuck because most trout when they feed on midgets... And at no time of the year will you find more fish rising than you will during midget activity. I'd love to tell people that, you know, our winter midget fishing is great. Now, I'm not telling you to go out and book a flight to Yellowstone in the middle December because 9 out of 10 days, it's gonna bleed below zero. But if you happen to be here during the [01:15:30.189] those warm days in February, March, and April, you'll find so many fish rising, and they rise in such narrow lanes. They don't move for a fly.
So, you wanna have a really solid fly pattern in the end of your tippet. And a Zelon Midge is one of those flies that has a shuck. It has a thread body, a thread abdomen. There's no dubbing or pheasant tail at this point. I just use either 16/O or even 8/0 Uni-Thread, wrapped over the shuck that [01:16:00.130] forms the abdomen. Then I tie on a Zelon wing. I figure right around a little chunk of Zelon or parapost, dark dun. And then I take one or two pheasant tail fibers. And you can find them in black. You know, you just used that section of the pheasant tail fiber that's black, even a dark olive, or sometimes brown. Just tie that on in figure eight, those one or two fibers around the wing, [01:16:30.710] reinforce it with your thread, tie it off with finish, and go fishing.
Tom: Is the wing canted over the eye like the rest of them?
Craig: No. I tie actually a spent wing for that fly.
Tom: You do?
Craig: Yeah. And I kind of force it back a little bit on a 45. Not that that's necessary. We do tie a fly called a Scotty's Midge that's exactly like that, and it has a wing canted forward. That's not in the book, but all you have to do is tie a wing on and cant it forward [01:17:00.260] like we were talking about in a 45 degree angle. That's a very, very effective skittering midge pattern. And again, anybody, a beginner can tie these flies in less than a minute. It's gonna work.
Tom: Yeah. Even though they're tiny, they're not hard.
Craig: Yeah, I think that's a common mistake a lot of anglers, myself included. I didn't Mitch fish for years. I was like, "Jesus crap, how do you hold a great, big fish on a 26 hook?" Well, that 26 hook buries the dog on deep. Most of [01:17:30.149] the time, you have to leave it in the fish. You can't even get a barbless hook out of the fish, particularly a brown. But talk yourself into midge fishing. You'll have so much satisfaction catching big fish on small flies, and most of the time it's during the off season, so you'll be there by yourself.
Tom: Yep. And don't forget, for tying and for tying them on, you're gonna need a pair of cheaters.
Craig: No doubt about it.
Tom: People say, "Oh, I [01:18:00.109] can't see that fly to thread it." "Well, do you read in glasses or magnifiers?" "No." Well, come on.
Craig: There you go. I lasted till I was 56, and then I finally had to go to cheaters.
Tom: Yeah. And I find that 4X or even 4.5X magnifiers are best for tying on those little flies and tying them.
Craig: Definitely.
Tom: I don't know about you.
Craig: Nope. I agree a 100%.
Tom: And you can get them. You can't usually get them in a drugstore, you have to get them online. But there's places I was actually [01:18:30.284] just looking last night, there's places that sell 4X, 5X, and even 6X magnifiers, and boy, they make a difference.
Craig: It'll end frustration. You'll be fishing. You'll be, you know, fishing to rising fish in no time. If you try to do it without or with a cheap pair of 2X, you're gonna spend so much. You're gonna drop flies. You're not gonna get a secure knot. Just bite the bullet, spend a few bucks, and get a good pair of cheaters.
Tom: Oh, you know, while we're talking about midges, the other [01:19:00.314] complaint is, "I can't see my fly on the water." So, describe how you set the hook and what you look for.
Craig: Well, what I do... Again, and I use that splat cast, and people go, "Jesus Christ, you really..." I do I cast like I'm throwing a pile cast where you pile a whole bunch of tippet. So, you get... You know, I'll put a 3 to 4-foot-long section of, say, 6X tippet because [01:19:30.055] I want a long drift, particularly in winter mid fishing. And microcurrents are what kill you. So, you want a long drag free flow, but most of the people can't see their fly. And what I do is I drive that cast into the water well above the fish so as not to spook them, but it'll actually make a splat where your fly lands. And all of a sudden, you can concentrate on that little spot, and then you can see generally, so you can see your fly.
With a Zelon wing [01:20:00.034] or a pair of post wing, and you put, you know, a desiccant on it, you can see that. I mean, I can see it, and I'm 77 years old. I can see that fly on the surface. Also, get close to fish. Do whatever it takes. You know, I always say the knee pads or your butt portion of your waiter should wear out before your neoprene feet. I'm on my knees, I walk on my knees, I scooch along the shore on my butt. [01:20:30.234] I like to get real close to rising fish. I like to see their eye when they arise. And believe it or not, you can get there if you patiently scooch along, rather than try out to bomb out these long casts where you can't see your fly and you end up just spooking fish.
Tom: Yeah. Great advice. Great advice. That's good, solid stuff. Thank you.
Craig: And, you know, if for a Zelon Midge too, quite often, if you're fishing [01:21:00.055] a little bit rougher water, you're fishing in wind and it's really difficult to see your fly, when you're tying, tie a couple of Zelon Midges and fan the wing. In other words, fan it like you would a Sparkle Dune or a Comparadun with your Zelon or your Antron wing material. That way, you've got a full wing, and when you put desiccant on that or a floating on it, you can see that wing.
Tom: Yeah, yeah. Great tip.
Craig: Or put it CDC feather between [01:21:30.095] the wings. I did that quite often.
Tom: Interesting.
Craig: Do whatever it takes.
Tom: Yeah. Well, Craig, I wanna thank you for taking the time today. That's some really good, valuable, interesting stuff. And I like to do a geeky podcast once in a while, and this one is, you know... You and I are geeky fishermen, so...
Craig: Well, I sure appreciate your [01:22:00.204] taking the time in making this interview happen, Tom. And I want to invite anybody and everybody that's in and around Yellowstone or the Bozeman area on the 7th of October to come to Montana State University because our book release is happening that day. And at 7 p.m., we're gonna have a big event at the library. The Montana State University Libraries is hosting us.
Tom: Oh, cool.
Craig: And then Keith, McCafferty is gonna be the moderator. And Yvon and I [01:22:30.164] will be there. Unfortunately, Morrow's stuck in Italy, but Yvon Chouinard, and I will be there, and we'll have a great discussion and a lively time at the university that evening.
Tom: Yeah, It should be a fun event. I wish I could make it.
Craig: It'll be a live wire choir, I can guarantee you that.
Tom: Yeah, yeah. And the book, I assume, will be available other places in bookstores.
Craig: Yes. Again, Patagonia will have it. Amazon, I know will have it. It'll be at all Patagonia dealers on [01:23:00.225] that date ready to sell.
Tom: All right. Well, thank you, Craig. It's always great talking to you, and I learned a ton on this podcast, and I'm sure other people did.
Craig: Well, thanks, Tom. Thanks for having me, and I hope to see you and everybody listening in Yellowstone Country soon.
Tom: Great. Thank you, Craig, and say hi to Jackie for me.
Craig: I will. Thanks so much. Take care now.
Tom: Okay. Bye-bye.
Automated Voice: Thanks for listening to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. [01:23:31.189] You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at