How to find great fly fishing close to home, with Greg DeMars
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And my guest this week is Greg DeMars. Greg is the author of a very new book on urban fly fishing in the Dallas, Texas area. Dallas-Fort Worth area. [00:00:30.379] I think that's an interesting title for a fly fishing book, but it's actually a very interesting part of the world for fly fishing, certainly different than the trout streams most of us are thinking of.
And the topic of the podcast is not just about Dallas and Fort Worth, but it's about urban fly fishing in general and how most of us live in urban areas. Most of you live in urban areas anyways. And there are places that you can have [00:01:00.070] a lot of fun and excitement with a fly rod pretty darn close to home. So, I know I've done a number of podcasts on urban fly fishing, but we can always learn, and we can never know too much about it because I think it's really fun. So, anyway, hope you enjoy the podcast with Greg.
And before we get to the Fly Box, where you ask questions and I try to answer them, wanted to tell you about some places you may want to go to fish this year. [00:01:30.680] So, first on the list is Orvis-Endorsed Guide Rene Letourneau. And Rene fishes the Rhode Island area. He fishes Narragansett Bay, Newport, Point Judith, Block Island, Westerly, Watch Hill, all those areas.
And Rhode Island is an amazing place. It's one of the places I really enjoy fishing. It doesn't have a long coastline as far as point to point, but there are lots of really cool nooks and crannies and ponds [00:02:00.359] and outlets and breechways in Rhode Island, and it's some of the best habitats, saltwater inshore habitat, on the East Coast.
And Rene, I've fished with Rene before. He's a great guide, very experienced, been doing this a long time. If you're in Rhode Island on vacation or if you live in Rhode Island, or if you live close to there, even if you're stopping off in a cruise ship, [00:02:30.030] he can pick you up and take you fishing. And the targets there are striped bass, bluefish. In the fall, bonito and false albacore, maybe a weakfish, maybe a black sea bass if you want to fish deep. But there's a lot of stuff going on. I have seen bluefin tuna and skipjack tuna close to shore. Not that that's going to happen because it's a rare occurrence. But you never know in saltwater what you're going to see. [00:03:00.150] So, look up Captain Rene. I know you'll have a great time. It's a wonderful fishery, and he's a wonderful guy.
Next on the list is an outfitter. And our outfitter for the week is a saltwater angler in Key West, Florida. Now, I get questions all the time. People asking me on Instagram or on the podcast mailbox. "I'm going to Key West on vacation. [00:03:30.539] Where can I find a guide? Where should I look for information?" And the best place in Key West is absolutely Tony Murphy's Saltwater Angler.
Tony's got the guides. He's got great guides who suit themselves to your needs and your ability. Florida Keys guides can be difficult at times. [00:04:00.039] And so you want to go to a place where you know the guides are going to really tailor the experience to what you want. But I don't have to tell most of you that it's an amazing ecosystem. It's subtropical. It's filled with clear water, and there's sea life everywhere. And you have the option of flats or offshore fishing for tarpon, bonefish, permit, tuna, false albacore, barracuda, tripletail, jacks, cobia, king, seal, [00:04:30.470] and Spanish mackerel, and blackfin tuna, and snook. I've seen all of these species in the Key West area. The snook were a little bit further away, but they're still around.
So, Saltwater Angler can hook you up with a guide. They also have probably one of the best fly shops in the saltwater world. So, they've got the gear, they've got the guides, and they've got the knowledge. So, if you are in the Florida Keys [00:05:00.165] on vacation or whatever, they're the people to talk to.
And third, our lodge is Tower Rock Lodge on the Kenai Peninsula in Alaska. And the Kenai is home to probably the most diverse fishing in all of Alaska. You can go in salt water for halibut or rockfish. You can fish in salt or fresh for four species of salmon: king salmon, sockeye salmon, silver salmon, [00:05:30.504] and pink salmon. They've got steelhead and trophy rainbow trout, Dolly Varden, and, of course, the predatory pike. You never know which of these you're going... Which of these you target depends on what time of year you're going because Alaska is very seasonal. So, you need to talk to the lodge and figure out what you want to target. But they're ideally located on the banks of the Lower Kenai [00:06:00.084], and you've got access to ocean-bright salmon and magnum rainbow trout.
They also offer flyouts to various places. They offer ocean excursions. And there's tons of other options. You can fish from drift boats. You can do a walk-in adventure on coastal streams. If you want, you can bring your own equipment. But if you don't want to carry it, they can provide wading gear, [00:06:30.425] waders, and wading boots and all the tackle you need. You don't need to pack a thing. You don't even need to pack a raincoat.
And this lodge is, I think, unique. They even provide free airport pickup and a free loaner vehicle for the week, and that includes gas. So, that's an incredible add-on there. And, of course, you're in Alaska. You're going to likely see bald eagles, moose, bears, seals, [00:07:00.735] sea otters. The cabins at the lodge have plenty of bug spray because you're going to need it. A mini fridge, comfortable beds, very clean bathroom with hot shower, and dark blinds. That's important because, early summer, it never gets fully dark. And if you want to get some shut eye, you're going to need those heavy blinds.
The lodge obviously it's Orvis-endorsed. They have a great chef with amazing food and wine [00:07:30.014], and the guides are patient and hardworking. They are because we make sure they are. That's why they're Orvis-endorsed. So, anyway, if you're planning an Alaska trip, and everyone owes themselves a trip to Alaska at least once in their lifetime, Tower Rock Lodge on the Kenai... Easy for you to say. The Kenai Peninsula is a great place to check it out.
All right. Next is the Fly Box before we get to our [00:08:00.569] interview about urban fly fishing. And if you have a question for the Fly Box, you can send it to me at
So, the first one is from Ben from Alberta. "Over the past year, I've made it a mission of mine, as part of growing my horizons in fishing, to develop myself as a fly angler. Initially, this was a challenging task, but with some patience, practice, and help, I've been able to watch myself grow with these skills. [00:09:00.200] This year's trout stocking season has just gotten underway in Alberta. I've spent a lot of time getting out to the freshly stocked ponds and been having success in both casting and catching my first fish on a fly rod and already many more.
This podcast, your book, and the "Orvis Fly Fishing Guide" and Orvis resources have played a great part in that growth, but still many Orvis resources yet to consult. But to anyone listening who is looking to get started [00:09:30.220] in fly fishing, I would strongly encourage you to seek out local fly shops for some starting pieces.
Late last summer, when I found a fly shop, I reached out to the owner to see about getting a good line setup and some advice. Even that one conversation and line setup with the owner was incredibly valuable and got me set up for success. I believe that all new fly anglers should seek out these kinds of conversations with local fly shop owners to make sure they get the right gear and start building [00:10:00.179] a strong foundation.
Additionally, I have a question. I went looking through the archives a bit and couldn't come across anything about yellow perch and targeting them. I was out at a pond with many perch over the weekend and had quite a bit of success but still wanted to see if I could find a podcast episode to get even more ideas. Is there an episode about targeting perch that I might have missed? And if not, would you ever be interested in making an episode about targeting perch?"
[00:10:30.509] Well, Ben, first of all, you are absolutely right. Independent fly shops or fly shops in general are the backbone of the fly fishing world. They're the place where all the action happens and where you can see the latest stuff and get all the information you need in person, which is incredibly valuable.
Regarding yellow perch, I don't have an episode on fishing for yellow perch [00:11:00.164] with a fly rod. And you know what? I'm not going to do an episode on fly fishing for yellow perch. Not that I don't love yellow perch. It's one of my favorite fish to catch because they're abundant, they're eager, they're one of the best-eating freshwater fish that I'm aware of. They're delicious. But there isn't much you need to know about targeting yellow perch. All you have to do is find them.
They're a schooling fish [00:11:30.294], and they might be at various water depths. In early season, they're going to be in shallow, and then they might be deeper later on. But you have to find them first. And that's probably something you can get from more conventional angling podcasts or publications. But once you find yellow perch, any nymph, small nymph, little tiny streamer, you can vary your retrieves a little bit. [00:12:00.125] Usually, a fairly fast retrieve with some pauses in between. But once you find yellow perch, you're going to be able to catch them, as you found out.
I remember just last season, I was fishing with my buddy, Drew Price, on Lake Champlain, and we came upon. We hooked one perch, and we said, "Oh, boy. There's going to be perch around here." We sat at one place for about an hour and a half just yanking on perch and having a ball with them, trying to get one that was just [00:12:30.154] a little bit bigger than the rest. So, anyway, no, I'm not going to do a podcast on yellow perch, but, yes, they're a great fish to target with a fly rod.
Here is one from Brian from Up North in Vermont. "I'm looking forward to seeing your presentation at next week's Battenkill Fly Fishing Festival," and that's this week, by the way, on Saturday in Arlington, Vermont. "I know everyone wants to chat you up at events, so I figured I would send my question into the [00:13:00.164] Fly Box instead.
I was watching a YouTube video featuring your nemesis, Tim Flagler, speaking about his Euro nymph setup. He mentioned that as an alternative to going whole hog into a Euro-style setup, one could get a Euro shorty line to attach to their standard weight-forward line so as to convert back and forth between standard fly fishing and the Euro-style nymphing. This is intriguing to me, as fishing in Vermont in the spring has been less than fruitful for me with standard nymphing approaches, [00:13:30.509] and I see other anglers reeling in large holdover trout via Euro methods.
My question on Euro shorties is twofold. Why bother with the shorty piece of floating line? My understanding is that a Euro setup has slightly mostly sider Euro leader through the guide, so why not simply attach that leader directly to my weight-forward line? Two, do you have any personal experience with a shorty setup? And if so, what are your impressions and thoughts on them?
Second question. This spring, I have been taking advantage [00:14:00.480] of the cold weather to fish in spots which are traditionally popular swimming holes during the summer before the crowds descend on them. So far, I haven't had any luck in these locations. Of course, the reasons for that could be multitude. However, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on whether swimming holes tend to become fish-free zones over the years, or are they still worth giving a try in the spring?"
So, regarding that shorty line, yeah, if you do [00:14:30.429] need to make a longer cast than normal, if you need to make a 40-foot cast with a Euro setup, you're going to want, or it might help to have a thin level line. And unfortunately, your weight-forward line that you have on your rod, it's going to droop between the rod tip and your nymphs bouncing along the bottom. So, you need something that has less mass.
And, yeah, [00:15:00.519] for the most part, you can just attach a Euro leader to your regular fly line if you're going to fish relatively short because you're not going to have the fly line outside the guides anyway. But if you are trying for a longer drift or a longer cast, then it does help to have that shorty line. I don't have any personal experience with it. You're going to have to ask Tim Flagler. Actually, he's coming to stay at my house for the weekend, so maybe [00:15:30.009] I'll ask him when he comes. But, anyway, yeah, I don't have experience, but I can see where it might be useful.
Now your second question, I can answer. I've found that swimming holes in general, although they look good, they often don't have a lot of great habitat because they usually don't have a lot of structure and rocks. They're places that are deep [00:16:00.110], but they're fairly clean on the bottom. And there may be fish. If you got spots where the fish can go to hide when people go swimming, those fish will be fine. People swimming won't bother them at all. They won't feed while people are swimming, but in the early morning and the evening, you'll see fish.
So, if the pools are not just like a rounded bathtub and have some structure in them, yeah, they can be good. But don't forget that deep water [00:16:30.210] is not necessarily the best place to fish. Trout like to feed in water that's 2 to 4 feet deep. So, even if it's a big, deep swimming hole, fish are probably going to be feeding in the shallower areas, so you may want to concentrate there. But swimmers, beavers, things like that don't seem to bother trout. They just get out of the way and wait till the disturbance is over and then feed.
Here's one from Peter from Illinois. "I think [00:17:00.014] that I finally need some help. The past week, I've been doing pretty well with the rainbow trout hitting number 18 black caddis dry flies. I'm having trouble getting the tippet through the eye of the hook. So, I decided to take your advice and try the Orvis Big Eye Dry Fly Hooks. Only problem is these are no longer available on the Orvis website." And you know what? They're not available anyplace else.
"Neither [00:17:30.045] are they found using the Find Product Adventures Inspiration search window. Now when I finally decide I need them, are they no longer available? I guess that I can try carrying a small magnifying glass with me or try threading 6x tippet through the eye of the number 18 fly instead of 5x."
Well, Peter, yeah, I apologize. I've promoted the Orvis Big Eye Hooks in the past [00:18:00.224] on podcast, and they are no longer available. That's the bad news. They were a great hook. Jim Lepage, Orvis retired product developer, and I developed this hook back, I think, in the '90s, and it was a beautiful hook. It was made by Daiichi, and it had an oversized eye, and it had just a little mini barb on it and a perfect bend. It was a beautiful hook, and I still have some. But you're not going to find [00:18:30.174] them anymore as Orvis Big Eye Hooks.
Now, but there's a couple of great options, and you're going to have to do a little searching. One is the Daiichi 1110 hook is the exact same hook. It's a ring eye, oversized eye. In fact, it's the Orvis Big Eye Hook. But Daiichi is becoming really hard to find in the States. I don't think they have a distributor in the United States now. I know there's a guy on... [00:19:00.150] I know there's a guy on eBay who is selling them. He must have bought a whole bunch of them. There's a guy on eBay that is selling the Daiichi 1110 hooks, and I bought some from him because I wanted to stock up.
But recently, I was at the New Jersey Fly Fishing Show and talked to the people at Ahrex and was going to try [00:19:30.079] to talk them into making this same style hook. And I found out that they actually have the perfect hook in their line. And it's called the Ahrex FW507 or just the Ahrex 507. And it comes in 18, 20s, and 22s. It's a beautiful hook. It's nearly the same as the old Orvis Big Eye Hook [00:20:00.109], and it's barbless. So, it's a really great hook, and you can get it through fly shops like Fly Fish Food, or you can just google it, do a search on it, and you'll find that hook. So, it's being made. It's being distributed in the States, and it's the perfect substitute for that Big Eye Hook.
Here's one from Pavel from British Columbia. "I'm a huge fan of your YouTube channel. Thank you so much for sharing all that valuable information on fly fishing. May I please ask [00:20:30.059] for advice? It looks like nobody covered this, but I find it the most challenging part of all fly fishing so far. It has to do with the management of the striped line.
When fishing on the lake, there is no problem. The striped line under me sits on the water. And when I make a cast, that entire line is shot forward as it is meant to do. But when I fish on a swift river with some decent flow, the problem starts. The strip line is immediately carried downstream by the flow. And when I do my cast, [00:21:00.069] the fly line is not shot forward because it is held by the flow of the river. Some videos show people using stripping baskets to avoid this problem, but I find it very unpractical in terms of mobility, etc. Is there any trick to how to deal with this issue, or would you recommend any video that covers this?"
Well, Pablo, that's a great question. And there is a solution to that, and it's interesting that I don't see anybody [00:21:30.579] using this solution, and that's coiling the striping line on your striping hand. So, what you do is you make a strip or maybe two, and then you grab the coils, and you're striping with your thumb and your forefinger of your line hand, right? So, you make a strip, and then you drop the loop on the last three fingers, fingers number three, four, five [00:22:00.170] on your striping hand, and then you keep coiling them. And with some practice, you can add these coils to your hand in order so that they shoot out when you shoot some line.
And I do this fairly often in fast water, and I have people look at me and ask me what I'm doing. And it's something that we used to do a lot more, and I don't [00:22:30.154] understand why it's not taught these days. But you're absolutely right. There should be a video on coiling line. And I think I'm going to work on one. I'll put it on my list of videos to do because it is kind of an essential part of fly fishing. And I don't know. Maybe it's because most people fish from boats where you don't need to worry about that. A lot of people fish from boats. But, anyway, [00:23:00.194] great idea.
And yes, stripping baskets are kind of a pain in trout fishing because you got all kinds of other gear with you, and you're generally doing a lot of walking. So, I'm going to do it. Anyway, thank you for the idea. I'm going to work on a video on coiling line because I think it'll be beneficial to people.
Here's one from Dylan. "Hey, Tom. I have a question that I've received different answers on and know that you could help. I live in Nova Scotia and fish [00:23:30.305] mostly brook trout in streams and local rivers. I've been fly fishing for several years and grew up around it with my father and grandfather being fly fishermen. My question is about tippet.
I have never used tippet, only leader material. Occasionally, I will use a tapered leader, but most often I use Maxima Ultra Green 6-pound leader material. I've yet to fish with anyone who ties tippet onto their leader. What is the point of tippet? I've had pretty good luck in little streams landing [00:24:00.224] brook trout without using tippet. Does the leader really stand out to the fish that much? Also, what kind of knot would you recommend instead of the perfection loop? Thanks for the great podcast with all the helpful information you provide."
Well, Dylan, this is a question that mystifies so many people. And tippet is fishing line. Tippet is just extra fishing line that you carry on spools. And when [00:24:30.224] you buy a knotless tapered leader or a knotted leader in the store, a machine-made leader, there is already tippet on it. Tippet is just the last piece of leader material on your leader. So, it's no different than the rest of the leader. It's just extra stuff that you tie on because when you... If you use a knotless tapered leader, as you keep losing flies or cutting flies off [00:25:00.164] and changing them, the leader gets thicker, eventually, and it gets too thick to get through the eye of the fly.
And, yeah, if you're fishing in streams, especially, you need a relatively flexible connection between the fly line or between the leader and your fly to allow the fly to behave naturally. The fish can probably see your tippet, which is just the last piece of your leader. Don't forget. But they usually ignore it. They ignore [00:25:30.250] the hook too.
So, anyway, tippet is just the end of your leader. And again, if you use those store-bought leaders, you're going to need to add some tippet eventually. Otherwise, you're just going to have to throw out your leaders, save it for bass fishing, and put a new leader on, which is kind of wasteful and not very economical. So, it's just a way of using a leader for longer. That's all. And, again, tippet material is [00:26:00.009] just the stuff you've been... The 6-pound stuff you've been using. That's all it is.
Oh, and a knot that I would recommend instead of a perfection loop. Boy, there isn't a good one that I know of. I mean, a double surgeon's loop where you just make a loop of material and tie a double overhand knot in it is pretty strong, but it doesn't [00:26:30.089] let the rest of the leader stay in line. It's kind of cocked off to the side. And it's a little bit sloppier knot. And the perfection loop is really not that hard to tie. So, if I were you, I'd learn the perfection loop and stick with that one for your leaders because I think it's going to be a better knot.
Now, I don't think the perfection loop works really well. If you're planning on tying a perfection loop in really fine stuff in your tippet [00:27:00.519], then I wouldn't use a perfection loop there. I'd use a surgeon's loop because I don't think the perfection loop is very strong in smaller diameters. But if you're talking about your 50, 40, 30-pound test that is around 20,000ths of an inch in diameter, if you're tying a loop in that, I would definitely use a perfection loop. It's a strong knot, and, with some practice, it's pretty easy to tie. [00:27:30.565]
Here's one from Zach from DC. "Whenever there's a hatch going on, I always have trouble catching a fly out of the air to see what they are. I've tried using my hat to catch them, but it seems like the air resistance of the hat just pushes the fly away. I'm mostly fishing small streams with relatively sparse hatches, so it's not like the flies are everywhere. Any tips for getting my hands on an airborne fly?
I also have similar questions about nymphs. Some instructional books [00:28:00.170] I've read talk about what to do when fish are feeding on certain kinds of nymphs, but they seem to take for granted that you should be able to tell what they're feeding on subsurface. Any tips on figuring out what fish are feeding on underwater? I often flip rocks and come up with a variety of insects. So, how can I tell which ones the fish are keying in on?"
So, Zach, yeah. There's an easy solution for both of those. One is [00:28:30.285] for catching flies out of the air, there's nothing better than a little aquarium net or even a bigger butterfly net. I don't know if you want to carry a butterfly net on the stream, but what you might want to do is buy a little goldfish net or aquarium net and tie it to a stick or tie it to your wading staff or something like that. And then, because that thing doesn't have [00:29:00.075] a lot of air resistance like a hat does, you should be able to catch those bugs in the air. So, yeah, just a little net that you can swipe at those bugs will be valuable.
Now, knowing what nymphs the fish are taking is a little bit more difficult because it's all happening under the water, right? And you can't really see into the water that well, and things are moving fairly fast. So, you could take that same little net [00:29:30.404] and put that underwater and hold it there for a while and see what's in the drift.
Now there's an even better way. Go to Home Depot or Lowe's and get yourself a 5-gallon elastic paint strainer. They're two for $5 the last I checked. And this thing will fit perfectly around a landing net, a fishing net, and you can just put that [00:30:00.315] around your net, stick it in the water, let it sit there for a while in the current, and anything that's drifting in the current will be caught in that net. And they're nice and white, so you can really see what's in the water.
Turning over rocks is okay, but it's not as good because you don't know which of those bugs that are under those rocks are in the drift at any given time. They might be living under those rocks, and they may not be ready to hatch for [00:30:30.265] a month or two. And there may be something else totally in the drift. So, you want to find out what's in the drift, and there's no better way than a 5-gallon elastic paint strainer.
Here's one from Tom from Georgia. "I am a novice fly angler, and my home waters are generally North Georgia and Western North Carolina, including the Smoky Mountains National Park and Nantahala National Forest. So, a lot of small streams, tight quarters fishing.
[00:31:00.069] Question for you. I have you and others speak about the importance of making your first cast count when you come upon a promising or even maybe not so promising looking spot. I was wondering if you can elaborate on that a bit and provide any practical tips. As I say, it's generally tight quarters fishing, so you have to get in the water, get a length of fly line out of the rod tip, get off a roll cast, most likely. My first cast is generally not too special under these conditions. [00:31:30.240] My subsequent cast might look a little better, but, of course, that can be too late for some fish."
Well, yeah, Tom, I do think that your first cast is important. The reason is that a cast is something landing on the water. And subsequent casts, the fish might be alerted. It might be totally spooked by your casting and then stop feeding or swim away and hide. [00:32:00.200] But it just might make the fish a little bit more alert.
So, your first cast, the fish is probably not as on guard as it would be on subsequent casts and is more likely to take your fly. So, there's nothing better than practice for all this stuff. So, practice maybe in a pool that you don't think there's any fish in or on your subsequent cast, and just practice trying to get that first cast as good as [00:32:30.029] you can.
Maybe one of the things you could do is cast off to the side in some lousy-looking water that's maybe off to the side of where you think the fish is and make a few casts there. It's got to be downstream of the fish you're targeting. Make a few roll casts there to get your range and get your leader to straighten properly, and then change your angle a little bit and put that same roll cast up where you think the fish is.
[00:33:00.660] So, it is important. I think your first cast is going to be the most important. So, you need to practice and spend time. And also look the water over. Get in position, and don't just start casting right away. Look the water over. Look for back cast room if you can get it, and maybe do a couple practice casts off to the side. And then, you'll hopefully be able to... In most cases, you'll be [00:33:30.049] able to make that first cast a little bit more accurate and a little bit more delicate.
Here's one from Rick. "Any advice for tying in CDC hackle, specifically on nymphs? I can't seem to get this right. Tying the CDC with the quill seems easiest, but it does not want to come out even. I'll get a bunch of fibers on the right and not many on the left, a bunch on top, and very few on the bottom. If I use a dubbing loop [00:34:00.065], it seems almost impossible to get the CDC into the loop without losing most of the feathers. Is there a trick to any of this? Is all CDC created equal? Are there some tools, clips, twisters that work better for CDC? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much for all that you do for the sport and for your attention to the environment as well."
Well, Rick, you're right. CDC is difficult to wind and to tie in. [00:34:30.025] And I have this discussion with Tim Flagler and Cheech all the time. It's a pain. And so one of the things you can do is to select the right CDC feather. And you might have to go through a couple dozen feathers or more to find one where all the fibers are nice and even. And that's difficult. CDC is a natural fiber, and the birds don't always grow feathers the way we like them. So, you may [00:35:00.105] have to sort through a whole bunch of CDC when you're winding it for a nymph to find one that has a little bit more uniform fibers. But I think that's one key is to look for more uniform fibers.
Another thing you can do is use two feathers sometimes and wind those together. That might help. Creates a little more bulk. And then if you have some fibers that are overly long, you can pluck those. [00:35:30.434] Just grab the ones that are out of place and look a little bit too long, and you can just tweak those, pinch them, and you can shorten them up. So, that's one thing you can do. But I've noticed that when I use CDC on nymphs and the fibers are all uneven, it doesn't seem to matter. The fish still... They don't look as good, but the fish seem to eat them just fine. [00:36:00.105] So, maybe we don't need to worry so much about getting that CDC nice and even like we would on a soft tackle.
The other thing to do is to instead of trying to wind it, tie it in with a distribution wrap. And you might have to do this in two stages, but just take the tips of that CDC and kind of splay it around the hook and then make a couple of loose turns around the CDC and distribute it [00:36:30.280] a little bit with your fingers and then tighten down on it. And you might have to do it in two stages because you may not get it all the way around the hook.
So, lots of ways to do that. I don't put it in a loop either. I find that to be incredibly fussy and difficult. But if you get good at tying in CDC with a loop, it can work really well. I'm just too impatient to do that myself. There are some great videos [00:37:00.269] on YouTube and in Fly Fish Food's website on putting CDC in a loop and spinning it.
And finally, here's one from Colin from Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. "I had a question about getting into tying flies. I'm 18 years old, and I've been fly fishing for a couple years using flies from local fly shops. I'm fascinated by the idea of tying my own, but I have no idea where to begin. I can only imagine [00:37:30.449] how much more rewarding it must be to land a trout on a pattern you tied yourself. Any tips or recommendations on where to start would be greatly appreciated. I love the podcast and all that you and Orvis do for the fly fishing community."
Well, Colin, you are absolutely right. Tying your own flies adds a whole new dimension to fly fishing, and it's really, really satisfying. So, I encourage you to tie your own flies. You're going to learn more about how flies behave and [00:38:00.159] what makes a good fly so that if you do buy some flies, you're going to be able to pick out the better ones. And you're going to learn the fly patterns a lot better by tying your own.
So, there's a couple ways you can go. One is if you plan on tying a bunch of different patterns, probably the best thing to do is buy a good kit, like the Orvis Encounter Fly Tying Kit. That'll get you started. [00:38:30.150] And there are a bunch of patterns in there that you can tie. Some really basic ones that'll be useful.
But if you want to just tie specific patterns, there's another way to go about it. Pick the patterns that you want to tie. Go on to the web and find the recipes for them and what people recommend for the materials. Make a list of that. And then buy yourself [00:39:00.059] a better vise, something like a... If you have the money, something like a Renzetti or a Regal vise are two of the better ones out there. And then get something like the Loon Fly Tying Tool Kit, which are higher-quality tools than you're going to get in a basic kit. And then just tie the patterns that you're interested in.
One of the things, and [00:39:30.110] if you don't buy a tool kit and you're kind of picking and choosing, you can't find that tool kit or whatever, one of the things that I recommend is that you spend most of your money on your vise and two pairs of scissors. A really fine pair of scissors and a coarser pair of scissors. You know, other things like whip finishers and stackers and bobbins, the cheaper ones, in my opinion, for the most part, seem to work as well as [00:40:00.059] the more expensive ones. But scissors and vise are your two most important tools. So, I hope that's helpful, and good luck tying flies.
Well, that is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Greg about the pleasures of urban fly fishing.
So, my guest today is Greg DeMars, and Greg has just recently written a book [00:40:30.250] that just published called "Urban Fly Fishing Dallas-Fort Worth." Now, if you don't live in that area, you're wondering, "How could somebody write a fly fishing book about fishing in Dallas and Fort Worth?"
And I spend a fair amount of time in Dallas and Fort Worth because I visit there's four Orvis stores in the area, and there's a lot of live fishers in that region. [00:41:00.099] And when I go there, I fish almost every day with some friends I've developed there, and I have a ball. So, I can understand that. But, Greg, why did you write this book?
Greg: Well, the short answer is a friend pestered me into it. And I was, actually, traveling into Central Texas to fish with a good friend of mine whose name is Aaron Reed, and he [00:41:30.175] wrote the first book in the series. This is a series of books from Imbrifex Books, my publisher. And the first one was "Austin and Central Texas Fly Fishing," and the second was "Houston and Southeastern Texas," and then mine is the third in the series.
And I was fishing with Aaron, and it's a six- or seven-hour round trip for me to go down to the Austin area and fish. And even though I love the streams down there, those limestone bed streams that are just beautiful and crystal clear, so I love going down there, [00:42:00.005] but I thought, "Gosh, with a six- or seven-hour round trip, it really would be nice if I could find some water closer to home." And at the time, I was living in a high-rise in downtown Dallas, and so all of the water that was anywhere near me was pretty much urban.
And in fact, there's a small creek that runs through kind of the middle of Dallas called Turtle Creek that was very accessible. I could just walk out of the condo building, and in about a five-minute walk, I was on Turtle Creek. So, I thought, "What [00:42:30.125] the heck? I'll go see if there's any fish in that creek." And lo and behold, it's full of fish, and people were surprised in the parks and stuff that saw me fishing that I was catching fish. So, I thought, "Well, what else is around here?"
And I just started fishing the local creeks and find fish everywhere and with no fishing pressure. I rarely ever bumped into another angler of any kind or fly angler for that matter. And I was telling Aaron, "Hey, if these creeks around Dallas are full of fish..." [00:43:00.105] He's like, "Well, then you really should be writing the Dallas book." And my initial reaction was, "No, thank you." But Aaron worked on me for a little while, and he actually helped me put together a proposal to his publisher, which is now my publisher. And it was very well received, and that's when I started fishing a lot more.
Tom: And it's a great book. There are lots of pictures, lots of photographs, and guides to... There's probably maybe going to be some... Of course, [00:43:30.079] you say there are not many anglers, but there's got to be some people that are going to be kind of upset because you kind of told all. You got maps in there and guides to know exactly where to go. But it's not like you're blowing up a secret trout stream. These streams could also all probably handle lots more pressure than they get already.
Greg: Most certainly. And in fact, I do get that question, or complaint perhaps you might say, [00:44:00.130] every now and again about blowing up spots. But in fact, there's a ton of great water that I fished that never made it into the book. So, there's a whole bunch of really good water out there that you can go discover on your own, and there's actually a chapter in the book that I talk about how I found all this water for myself, and that's an applicable kind of methodology, if you will, for anybody in any city, really.
There's a lot of online tools [00:44:30.210] and things that you can use. You can research the access because every state's different in terms of water access and what's legal, etc. So, that chapter, I think, could be very useful for anybody looking to find water close to their home to fish for whatever species it is that lives around you.
Tom: Yeah. I'm constantly blown away when I visit Dallas that it seems like every other person in Dallas owns [00:45:00.315] a second home in Colorado, and they go there to fish for trout. And I'm thinking, "Wow. They're flying there. They're driving all that way to Colorado." And they might fish once or twice a year, and they've got this stuff right in their backyard. And it's really hard to convince people that it can be fun and exciting, and the fish can be beautiful and strong and feisty. [00:45:30.164] It blows me away that people are so set on trout and fly fishing, and they just can't get it out of their heads that there's lots of things you can do with a fly rod.
Greg: Yeah. Absolutely. One of the things that I wanted to try to in any small way, I guess, kind of dispel this myth or this idea that if you have a fly rod in your hand, you have to be in a mountain stream somewhere fishing for trout. I mean, it's a tool. You can use it to catch whatever it is [00:46:00.034] that you're targeting. And I bump into people all the time that are like, "You're fly fishing in Dallas? Don't you have to go to Colorado to do that?"
Tom: Yeah.
Greg: Yeah. So, that's one of the things that, in my mind, was like, "What are the things that I want to try to maybe in some small way accomplish with the book?" And that's one of the things that it's like, "Hey, there's water everywhere that you can fish with a fly rod, and it's not that hard to find." And, gosh, [00:46:30.025] some of the places that are in the book that you look at some of those pictures and go, "There's no way that's in the middle of a metropolitan area of 7 million people," but yet there it is.
Tom: Yeah. And one of the things people have to get over, I think, and they have to get used to is you are going to get stared at, and you are going to get funny questions. And, of course, you're going to get the platitudes of "There's not any trout in there" [00:47:00.014] or "What are you doing here?" But you got to get over that. You just got to go and do it and enjoy the conversations with people. Typically, people are really interested in what you're doing, and you start some pretty interesting conversations with people.
Greg: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, when I was fishing that first foray into Turtle Creek, there's a little park down at the downstream end of Turtle Creek before it empties into the Trinity River [00:47:30.784], and there's a little pond there in a park that I started fishing, and it's just jam-packed with sunfish. And I would just pull sunfish out of there one after the other, and I would actually draw a crowd. People would be like, "What the heck is going on here?" Kids are fascinated, and mom and dad are stopping by and asking questions. So, it's a fun thing to do.
Tom: It is. It is. And you really teach people that this can be done anywhere, and the fly rod's not for [00:48:00.054] just wealthy people jetting off to Argentina to use.
So, you said you kind of have a method or a procedure for finding... Because half the battle or three-quarters of the battle really is finding a place, right? Is finding the right place to do this. And so, why don't you discuss that? [00:48:30.394] Because I think it'll be valuable to people that live in urban areas anywhere. Anywhere in the world, really. To discover this stuff in their backyard.
Greg: Yeah. A lot of trial and error, probably, but I settled kind of into this way of approaching it. And the first thing that I would use in trying to identify potential water is Google Maps. And [00:49:00.715] where some of us are familiar with the term blue lining, and there are blue lines on the maps, and you can go take a look. What I found even more helpful to me, rather than that standard kind of street map view where the little streams show up as blue lines, is I would go to the satellite view of Google Maps.
And for this area, they turned into dark green lines where all the creeks are kind of lined with vegetation. [00:49:30.760] So, you could really see where the creeks were and kind of gauge the size of the drainage, and from the size of the drainage, you could have a guess at least as to how much water that'd be carrying. Would the drainage be big enough for the fish that I'm trying to find that I'm targeting? And so, that was kind of the first step that I would use to kind of identify water.
There are also, around here anyway, [00:50:00.090] each county has its central appraisal district that will take aerial photographs, very detailed aerial photographs of the entire county, every year or two or three, depending on the county. And so, those will be kind of up-to-date, very detailed photos, and you can go to those county websites. I'm sure there's something similar around the nation that these are basically photographs, [00:50:30.059] aerial photographs for properties, and they'll map the property lines on top and all the different surveys and things like that. But these aerial photographs are very detailed and much more detailed than the Google Maps, so it's easier to kind of zoom in and kind of see the nature of the creek or the stream that you're thinking about fishing.
And then, Google Maps also has a street view. So, I would say, "Hey, I think this place, this stretch of creek, is a good candidate." [00:51:00.880] And then I would go to the street view on Google Maps and then walk myself to the bridges on the different roads and take a look upstream and downstream with the Google Maps street view and get an idea of the size and the water that's in the creek. And a lot of times it was like, "Okay. That's where I'm going." And at some point, you have to get out there and try to fish.
So, in Texas, the [00:51:30.880] land in Texas is more than 97% privately owned. So, there are definitely some challenges in terms of legal access to the water. Now any stream that averages 30 feet or better upstream from its emptying point, whether it's into another creek or into a lake or something, is considered the waters of the State of Texas. And so it's legal for us to be in those waters, but we do have to access the water via legal means. [00:52:00.295] So, basically, every time a public street crosses the stream, there's a right-of-way that you can use to get into the creek.
But that's kind of the general approach that I would use. I would use the online tools that are out there and kind of identify the spots. And in the book, I encourage people to just look around your house. Go to Google Maps and kind of zoom into the area around your house that's a few square miles or whatever, and try to [00:52:30.025] identify a stream that's nearby. It might actually be in the book. But some of them aren't in the book. I fished a whole lot of water that's not in the book. So, there's plenty of ways to identify and plenty of water to identify that would be a good opportunity for fishing.
Tom: Have you found any of these? There's a number of apps now that help you find waters to fish. Have you found any of them [00:53:00.094] useful in urban areas, or are they mainly targeting trout streams and bass lakes and things like that?
Greg: Well, it's interesting. Actually, I had planned to put a chapter in the book for apps. And I just couldn't find... I don't know. It was really kind of a challenge to use these apps to identify great places to fish. You would get reports from the users of the apps, and it [00:53:30.054] would say, "I caught a largemouth bass here," or "I caught a carp there." I thought it would be really useful, and it turned out to not be as useful as I thought. So, it didn't make it into the book.
But there are a lot of really great apps out there, especially for, if you're actually out and about and you have a cell signal, which when you're fishing in the city, you're almost certainly going to have a cell signal. There are some good apps [00:54:00.135] to find property lines and those sorts of things so you can know where you're standing in terms of private property or public property.
Tom: Yeah. I know I have used a couple of them in suburban areas. My daughter lives in Boston, and I wanted to take my grandson fishing, and I was able to identify some ponds with bass and sunfish. Of course, if they say they have bass on them, they probably have sunfish anyways. So, they were useful, but as far as [00:54:30.434] really urban areas, I don't think... They probably get better, but I don't think at this point they're going to be as much help as they would on finding a trout stream or something.
Greg: Yeah. Sure. And I think there's a reluctance among some anglers to share real information, to share specific information. So, I caught a fish, but maybe it wasn't exactly right there.
Tom: Yeah. We're like that, aren't we?
Greg: [00:55:00.530] Well, and I will say that fly anglers tend to be a little bit more generous in sharing information than a lot of other anglers. I don't know. It seems like there's more of a community there, and maybe that's just a bias on my part.
Tom: No. It seems to be...
Greg: I do try to share information with people when I'm out on the stream.
Tom: Yeah. I know. And fly shops are good places to check in because I've found in my travels, I've found that [00:55:30.090] the younger members of the...the younger employees in the fly shops are often pretty serious urban anglers, whether it's carp or bass or gar or whatever. So, you go into a fly shop or an Orvis store or whatever. Look for the youngest guy or woman in the fishing department. They're usually going to be up on some of the local urban waters.
Greg: [00:56:00.349] Yeah, I agree. I agree. And it's funny. I go around to the different fly shops in this area, and when I'm talking about my book, or say, "Hey. Maybe this is a book that you'd want to have on the shelf." And almost invariably, what I get back is, "Oh, man, you wouldn't believe it. We get people coming here all the time saying, 'Where can I fish locally? Where can I fish around here?'"
Tom: Oh, good.
Greg: Yeah. So, it seems like there's been [00:56:30.110] some pent-up demand for a while for information about fishing in or near the city. And I'm sure that's the case for most cities around the country. It doesn't seem to be focused by the cognoscenti, if you will, the people that...kind of thought leaders, if you will, of, "Hey, you can really fish right here in your city." And so I think there's some pent-up demand out there.
Tom: Yeah. [00:57:00.539] So, let's get into the nuts and bolts a little bit about finding a new place. Maybe a place that's all your own that nobody else fishes in an urban area. So, Greg, let's talk about how many trips do you give a piece of water before you give up on it, and what fly do you start with to try to locate the fish? And let's get into the real details. Let's say you're exploring a new piece [00:57:30.110] of water today.
Greg: Sure. Well, sometimes when I went out using the methods that I was using, I get to the creek and where I thought, "Hey, this would be a good spot to fish," and it's just not big enough. It's only going to have minnows, maybe small sunfish, and so it's not really worth exploring too much.
But barring that, if I get to a piece of water that looks pretty good, [00:58:00.119] it's interesting. I basically steal a technique from our trout fishing brethren and basically start with a dry dropper. And I want to make sure I want to find the sunfish. And if there are sunfish, then they're eating minnows and other little guys, and there's almost certainly going to be bass chasing the sunfish.
So, I start with a dry dropper, sometimes a hopper dropper, and just look for... [00:58:30.090] I mean, a lot of times in this water you can see them anyway. So, once I find the sunfish, then I might graduate to a Clouser minnow and start targeting bass more. We do have the greenstone fish around here, which have a larger mouth than most of them fish, so they will start eating those Clousers as well.
But that's really, that's how I get started, and then I'll generally fish upstream and keep targeting and looking for structure and things that will hold fish. [00:59:00.980] In the longer, deeper pools, you will almost certainly find some carp around here. And so those are finicky little guys, or big guys, if you will. And they're harder to target. They're harder to catch, but they're a lot of fun to catch. I'm generally carrying a 3-weight rod with me, a 7-foot, 7.5-foot 3-weight rod. [00:59:30.250] And hooking into a 22-inch carp with a 3-weight rod is it can be an adventure.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. More exciting than the most trout we're going to catch.
Greg: Yeah. So, that's how I generally approach it. Once I've kind of used my online tools to find a place that I think I can fish, then I find a place to park that's nearby and get in at one of the public road bridges and start fishing upstream.
Tom: [01:00:00.190] And have you ever had any sketchy encounters in your urban fishing?
Greg: Gosh. That's a good question. You would think, but honestly, I'm thinking back to... I've never really had any sort of. The sketchiest encounter I've had is a few water moccasins.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. That's true. You got them down there, don't you?
Greg: Yeah. [01:00:30.349] And they tend to stay away. If you make plenty of noise and make sure you're kind of hitting the ground with your feet nice and hard, and there's little...the rumbling, they'll feel that, they'll feel those vibrations and get out of your way.
Yeah. Lots of diamondback water snakes, and I've seen one copperhead [01:01:00.304], which you don't want to get sideways with one of those. And several water moccasins, but this is in three or four years of fishing and just tromping in every creek around here. And so, honestly, I really am surprised at how few snakes I've seen. But as far as people, I've fished in some... I try to avoid kind of sketchy neighborhoods, but I fished all over the metroplex and [01:01:30.094] all over the city and really haven't had any encounters at all that were concerning to me.
Tom: Yeah. I found the same thing. I mean, you often see some sketchy characters along creeks and urban areas, but they might look a little scary, but they're usually kind of either interested in what you're doing and kind of helpful sometimes, or you're so weird that you scare them away.
Greg: [01:02:00.184] Because they want nothing to do with that weird guy just walking in the creek.
Tom: Yeah. So, yeah. I wouldn't worry about it. People worry about that, but doesn't seem to be a problem.
Greg: Yep. I agree.
Tom: You want to lock your car sometimes, but other than that...
Greg: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, it's funny. In the book, there's a chapter on tips and tricks [01:02:30.085] and things to kind of think about when you're out in the middle of the city. I make the point that if you're fly fishing in the outback, you're more concerned about critters than anything else. But in the middle of the city, you need to make sure you're parking somewhere that's as safe as it can be and lock your doors and that sort of thing. Don't leave a bunch of gear out in the back of your SUV for people to see, and that sort of stuff. [01:03:00.665] Yeah, you do have other concerns when you're in the city.
Tom: Yeah. So, tell me a story, Greg, about one of your discoveries that really blew you away. Think back, a place that you found that was just absolutely spectacular.
Greg: There's a few.
Tom: If you can think of one.
Greg: Yeah. There're so many...
Tom: And you don't have to mention the spot. [01:03:30.204] Don't mention the spot, but just talk about it in general.
Greg: Sure. Well, there's a creek that actually didn't make it into the book that's South of Dallas in a little town called Red Oak. Well, the creek is named after a little town called Red Oak. So, it's Red Oak Creek, and it flows from the West to the East, South Of Dallas, and there are some access points for that creek that are really just spectacularly beautiful. [01:04:00.125] Big limestone bluffs and timber that's been moved around by the creek in different floods and things like that.
And just a really beautiful creek bed that, honestly, I felt like I was in Central Texas fishing with Aaron Reed because of just the beautiful clear water and the limestone bed full of fish, just tons of great bass, and [01:04:30.309] just it was really stunning. It just surprised me. And the first time that I went into the creek bed to kind of explore, I just started taking pictures and sending them to friends, and they're like, "Where are you?" And I'm like, "Well, you wouldn't believe it, but I'm right here in Dallas."
There's another creek that actually is in the book, and there's a couple of pictures of this creek in the book that, as you move west from Dallas into Fort Worth, the geology changes [01:05:00.440], and there's a woodbine sandstone formation that you get into. And sandstone weathers a lot differently than limestone does. And there's a creek called Bear Creek, and it's over by the international airport. And there's just some just spectacularly beautiful waterfalls and pools. And wading upstream and fishing, it's just like I had to stop and just look and just [01:05:30.329] kind of sit down and have a drink of water and just marvel at the beauty, just the natural beauty that's here, a five-minute drive from the international airport.
Tom: Wow. And how about fish discoveries that surprised you or delighted you?
Greg: Yeah. Well, I was, I think, in Bear Creek, as a matter of fact. [01:06:00.059] The first time that I caught a warmouth, that I actually knew that I caught it. Growing up fishing in Texas, you catch sunfish all over the place. You start with a bobber and a worm, and you graduate from there. And I'm sure I had caught sunfish before in my life, but here I was in my 60s, and I caught a fish in Bear Creek, and I looked down and I said, "It's not the normal sunfish that I'm catching." And took some pictures, and turns out it was [01:06:30.099] a warmouth. So, that was kind of a fun discovery to just find a picture or find a warmouth in one of the creeks that I was fishing.
Now, also, freshwater drum, and around here, they call them Gaspar Gueux, which is an Anglicized version of a Cajun French phrase. And these are, I haven't [01:07:00.150] caught very many, but they're really fun to catch. They pull hard. I had caught redfish, red drum in salt water before, and they look a lot like, obviously, they're a drum, but I was like, "That just looks like a redfish that's maybe a little thicker and silvery."
But what I didn't know and this is actually a subject of one of the blogs that I posted. I posted a picture [01:07:30.139] of one of the freshwater drum that I had caught, and somebody on my either Facebook or Instagram commented, "Oh, hey. Yeah. That's those fish that have the pearls in their head." And I was like, "What? What are you talking about?" And so I immediately had to go find out what the guy was talking about.
And turns out that freshwater drum have some of the largest otoliths, which are the inner ear bones of any fish, any freshwater fish. [01:08:00.195] And they've been used for millennia by Native Americans and others as jewelry and currency. And I just was fascinated by this, unknown till now for me, fact about these fish. And they're really very durable bones, and so they will wash up on the shores of Lake Erie or any body of water that they live in because their, everything else has [01:08:30.154] gone away, but those ear bones, those otoliths, actually survived.
So, it was just a fascinating discovery for me, and it kind of ties into the musical theme of the book too, which is Texas Blues. There was a song recorded back in the '20s, I think, of the last century, called "Lucky Rock Blues," and it was about these fish bones that [01:09:00.055] are supposed to be lucky. So, just all kinds of interesting information about the fish that we're catching around here.
Tom: Yeah. Now did you catch those drum in a creek or in a lake?
Greg: Yes. Actually, in a creek. I didn't really do any fishing in ponds or lakes for this book. So, everything that I caught was in a creek or a... [01:09:30.015] It wasn't in really fast-moving water. It was in relatively still water. One of them I caught was kind of an offshoot from the Trinity River. Another was from, basically, some still water that would feed into, I think it was in Arlington, but anyway, relatively, it was a creek, but it was not a fast-flowing creek.
Tom: Because we catch them up here in Lake Champlain, but they're usually fairly deep in bigger lakes. It's [01:10:00.345] cool to be able to catch them in a creek.
Greg: Yep. They're in there. There's just not a ton of them.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. It's a real trophy in a fly rod. Freshwater drum.
Greg: Yeah. It was a lot of fun.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. And have you caught some big bass that surprised you in some of these creeks?
Greg: Yes. Creek bass tend to not get too big, but here and there. Actually, the Turtle Creek drainage that I mentioned earlier [01:10:30.125] there are a couple of ponds that are dammed on that creek. And my personal best creek bass was probably a... I didn't weigh it, but I've got that calibrated angler's eye. I can always estimate accurately what the weight of the fish was exactly.
Tom: Yeah, plus two pounds, right?
Greg: But no, it was probably a 3.5-pound fish, I would guess.
Tom: Wow. Yeah.
Greg: So, yeah, out of a creek, that's a pretty big fish. But there's some creeks [01:11:00.159] around here that hold really nice-sized bass. So, you can get to 2-3 pound bass in some of these creeks with, I wouldn't say regularity, but you can definitely find them.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Is there any time of day in these urban waters that you find better than others?
Greg: That is a good question. I don't think so. [01:11:30.449] These fish tend to eat when they're ready to eat. Obviously, water temperature is going to play a big role in how active they are. And these are warm-water fish. So, in the summertime, your luck is better probably than it will be in the wintertime. But as far as time of day, I didn't really ever track moon phases and that sort of thing, and I would tend [01:12:00.340] to fish all day. And I didn't tend to fish early in the morning because I didn't want to fight the traffic, which is something you have to consider when fishing in an urban area.
Tom: Unless you got up real early, right?
Greg: Yeah. So, yeah, I would leave out good morning, and I would fish until dusk on a lot of days. So, I would fish all day long, and I never really noticed a pattern of when they were or weren't biting. [01:12:30.029] They tend not to be too worried about the sun. So, even on a sunny, bright day, they'll find places to stay out of the sun. But even then, I'll find cruising bass out in the open water in a sunny day. So, they're just not that finicky. There's a lot of competition for food in these warm waters, and so they just sit out there and eat when they can.
Tom: Wow. Wow. [01:13:00.430] I got to look you up next time I come down to Dallas for...
Greg: Please do.
Tom: ...store presentations.
Greg: Yeah. Absolutely.
Tom: And I'm a carb fanatic, so I'm sure you got some pretty good spots down there.
Greg: Yeah. I was just out yesterday, as a matter of fact, in a creek that I was kind of testing for the White Bass Run. And actually I waded a little bit farther downstream than I had before and found a couple of pools that had... [01:13:30.229] I don't even know how big they were. These carp, they were in groups of four or five, and they were coming to the surface to eat. All the trees are putting out their seeds and buds and whatever else, and so there's a lot of floating stuff on the surface, so these carp were just coming up to the top.
And I didn't have anything that looked like what they were eating, which was just frustrating. I was like, "Okay. I'll try a blue-wing olive. I'll throw something that's green because they're eating these little [01:14:00.140] green things off the surface." But they never came for my... And I don't know what I would have done with one of these 26-inch carp on a 3-weight rod. I don't know what I was thinking.
Tom: You've got to start carrying a 7-weight with you, Greg.
Greg: So, yeah, there's definitely some really great carpools around here.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. And as you said, they're not an easy target. They're not something for your first fish on a fly rod. They're something that, you know, they're a challenge [01:14:30.199], but they're interesting, and they fight hard, and they're just fascinating fish.
Greg: Yeah. I love catching them. Sometimes it's frustrating.
Tom: Yeah. And then you can always go and get your self-respect back and catch a bunch of sunfish and be happy about it, right?
Greg: Exactly. Exactly.
Tom: I'm happy with that too. Well, Greg, this has been great. I really appreciate you taking the time [01:15:00.114] to share some tips, and I hope that people in other urban areas really start trying to take advantage of what's close to home and get you out there with a fly rod more often instead of waiting for that yearly or biyearly trip. And it can be a fun, exciting, and beautiful experience.
Greg: One hundred percent. I appreciate you having me on, Tom. And one of the things I really [01:15:30.024] love about urban fly fishing is that you can stop on your way home from work and fish for 30 minutes and still be home in time for dinner.
Tom: Exactly. Or go after dinner sometimes if it's in the summertime. Yeah. Or before work if you...then you don't have to fight the traffic. Get there early in the morning.
All right, Greg. Thank you so much, and best of luck with your book.
Greg: Thank you very much, Tom, and look me up when you're in Dallas, please.
Tom: I will do that. Thank you very much.
Greg: All right. [01:16:00.305] Thank you, sir.
Tom: Okay. Bye-bye.
Greg: Bye-bye.
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at