Fly Fishing in Chesapeake Bay, with Scott Barmby
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And my guest this week is Scott Barmby. Scott is a licensed guide on Chesapeake Bay. He's also director of the Orvis Chesapeake Bay Fly Fishing School. So he's [00:00:30.109] full of knowledge. And what we're gonna talk about today are the problems facing Chesapeake Bay, particularly the striped bass issue, and then also the opportunities. It's a giant body of water. It's very rich, and it has some opportunities that you might not be aware of. So, anyway, I thought it was an interesting podcast. I personally have never fished in Chesapeake Bay. I plan to correct that in the near future. [00:01:00.200] And so Scott is going to educate all of us on what it's like.
But before we get to Scott, let's do the Fly Box. The Fly Box is where you ask me questions or you share a comment or a tip, and I try to answer your questions. And if I think your tip is valuable to other listeners, I will read it on the air. So don't be shy about your questions. No question is too basic. [00:01:30.109] And you think that I'm overwhelmed with questions, but I don't really get overwhelmed with them. I read them all, and a lot of them I do use on the air. So if you got a question that you can't look up on the internet, then send it along. Either attach it to an email at
Pat: Good morning, Tom. This is Pat Schultz from Washington, D.C. After watching your videos and listening to your podcasts, I've been inspired to take my bucket list trip to Labrador. And so I booked it last year. And [00:02:30.120] now my time has finally arrived, and I will be there in August. Two questions. I only have a 6-weight rod. What size rod or rods were you using when you caught those beautiful brook trout? Will the 6-weight be strong enough? And secondly, I don't have any mouse flies, but when I look at the web, there are hundreds of patterns, all different colors. Can you give me a brief description of the mouse patterns that you were [00:03:00.050] using when you caught those same beautiful brook trout? Thanks so much for all you do. I love your podcasts. They get me to and from all my commutes.
Tom: So, Pat, Labrador is truly the trip of a lifetime. Everyone wants to catch a big brook trout at some point in their life. I did, and it was amazing. And for the for the brook trout, I think that [00:03:30.110] a 6-weight will be just fine. It'll be strong enough, and you will be able to cast the most of the flies without too much problem. You don't have to make really long casts in most places. You know, a 6-weight is a little tough pushing a big mouse fly. So, a 7 might be a little bit better, but a 6 will be fine. Maybe stick [00:04:00.314] to smaller mouse patterns. You don't need giant mouse patterns. You just need something that's gonna create disturbance on the surface. The other thing though is that, depending on where you're going, there's often really good pike fishing in Labrador. Days when the brook trout aren't biting or you can't fly out to a brook trout location, and the pike fishing can be really fun. Pike and lake trout actually in some of the lakes. And there [00:04:30.214] you probably want at least a 7, probably an 8-weight. So if you have an 8-weight rod, I would take it along. If you don't, well, you can probably catch a pike on a 6-weight. It's just gonna be a little bit of a struggle.
Regarding patterns, I don't think there is a special mouse pattern. I picked something that's fairly simple, that's easy to cast. When I was there, I used Cermele's Master Splinter. It's a fairly [00:05:00.024] simple mouse pattern that's easy to cast. But I remember other people we're just catching brook trout on gurglers, which is a, you know, basic surface saltwater fly, and a gray gurgler. And I actually, one evening in the lodge, tied up some incredibly simple gray gurglers with just some some bucktail and gray foam on top, not even any body. And that got brook trout as well. [00:05:30.154] So you don't really need to worry. Just pick a mouse pattern that is easy to cast and you like the looks of.
Also, don't go without a good assortment of streamers because there are some days when the fish up there won't take mouse patterns and a streamer will work really, really well. In fact, the streamer is probably more effective, but the mouse patterns are more fun. And then don't don't go without some dry flies. Elk hair caddis, Parachute Adams, [00:06:00.045] basic dries because I remember in our week at Three Rivers, the biggest brook trout was caught on a size 14 Parachute Adams. So, don't leave your trout flies home.
All right. Let's do an email. The first one is from Deb from north-central Pennsylvania. "First, I wanna thank you for your podcast. I've learned a lot, and I appreciate the down-to-earth approach to your interviews and your practical answers to listeners' questions. I have a request as a result of an [00:06:30.019] incident that happened earlier this summer. Though I'm usually accompanied by my husband when I go fishing, on this particular day, I was by myself on one of the local waters that we frequently visit. There is a spot with a quiet pool that you can walk back to that is somewhat hidden and holds some lovely trout that aren't as pressured as the ones next to the road. It was a lovely day and I could see some fish rising. I was very anxious to see if I could fool one or two of them. I was completely focused on trying to see what they [00:07:00.060] were eating, tying on a fly, casting accurately, etc. I'm often not aware of my surroundings when I'm fishing, and I certainly wasn't that day. That's a bad practice, I know, but it's hard to remember to look around when there are fish to be caught.
Anyway, as I was beginning to cast once again, I was startled and momentarily frightened to see a young man fishing upstream from me not 30 feet away. To get there, he had to have passed behind me. I never heard him walk by, and he never said a word. When I [00:07:30.079] recovered my composure, I greeted him. As it turned out, he was a very nice person. But I'm well aware that it could have been difficult, and I have learned a valuable lesson to pay attention to what's around me. I don't think I'm the only one who gets totally involved like that when we're on the water. So my request to fellow anglers is please, please make your presence known when you approach another angler if you're not sure they saw you, especially a woman alone. Thank you and tight lines."
Well, Deb, [00:08:00.139] that is a great tip and a great suggestion. I'm not so sure that that young man should have fished 30 feet away from you, but that's an that's another issue, and it's not something they have a confrontation over. He was in the wrong in two aspects. And you know, if I were you, I would have just moved a little further away if he got that close to you. [00:08:30.670] But yeah, I'm gonna remember that. And if I walk behind someone on the river, I'm not gonna fish within sight of them, but I still will let them know that I'm there. Just give them a good morning or how you doing.
Here's an email from James. "I have been a 30 to 50 trip a year night fisherman for years now. Thanks for the night fishing podcast about mousing. Tommy Lynch, Joe, and many others have covered mousing a lot, [00:09:00.179] which seems like a popular gateway technique into the dark fly fishing for many. It's fun for sure. However, as you mentioned, there's so much more to night fishing than hitting the frog water with mice. Big wets are a staple in this game, like you said, and have better hookup ratio. I find I can fish current more effectively with these. Nymphs have saved many an evening, where staying with a mouse would have been fruitless for me personally. From the daytime scouting, habitat selection, fly [00:09:30.080] presentation types, to spotting the stream after you fish to learn about fish behavior, there is a lot to unpack. And much like daytime, it's definitely not limited to trout. One of my favorite ways to catch trophy smallies is at night with huge Harvey pushers. Hope you'll have more of your nighttime fly fishing buddies on for other episodes. Apparently, Tim Flagler spay fishes at night."
Well, thanks, James. And yeah, I agree with you that day in and day out, [00:10:00.740] a big wetter of unweighted streamer is probably gonna be more effective than a mouse. But mouse fishing is a lot of fun, and a lot of people like to do it. And I haven't tried night fishing for small mouth bass, but I think I'm gonna give that a try this year.
Here's an email from Patrick. "This is in response to the answer you gave in regards to the morality of catch-and-release fishing on this week's podcast. You mentioned you hope people don't think about it too much, but as a saltwater fly fishing guide [00:10:30.289] whose charters are catch and release only, I've thought about it a lot. I've had to come up with an answer to this many times in social situations when I mention my profession. Once I get past, 'You can fly fish in the ocean?' the next question is usually in regards to, 'Why don't you keep the fish?' And I have some bullet points which I use to defend catch and release, and I sleep just fine at night.
First, catch and release can help grow and protect the species. You mentioned that [00:11:00.154] it generally doesn't. Growing up in the Northeast during the striped bass moratorium, I've witnessed firsthand what overharvest can do to a fishery. Both recreational and commercial anglers diminish the striped bass population to dangerously low levels. Not killing them also helped recover the population. Unfortunately, we are on a similar precipice now, but that's another conversation. Reducing harvest and practicing catch and release has been a successful way to help maintain population status [00:11:30.085] for many fisheries.
Second, economic factors. Sport fishing or catch-and-release angling can be an incredibly valuable economic tool. It has boosted tourism in many destinations with limited job opportunities. Locations like The Bahamas, Mexico, and even deep into the Amazon Rainforest have developed world class lodges with local guides who now make a better living catching and releasing on fly than they did harvesting the fish for profit. It's been proven time and time again [00:12:00.835] in that certain species are worth far more alive than on a dinner plate. For the sake of brevity, the economic ripple of catch and release can be seen in basically every corner of the fishing and boating industry. People buy sport fishing boats for millions of dollars to catch and release species like blue marlin.
Third, fly fishing in particular has the least mortality of catch and release fishing and techniques, and there is a study to prove it. The Massachusetts Division of Marine [00:12:30.304] Fisheries completed a project in 2024 that calculated the mortality of striped bass after being caught and subsequently released. Fishing for a striped bass with live bait or lure with two treble hooks produced mortality rates of 6%, while a single hook fly had a mortality rate of only 2.7%. In my own experience, to further these results, I believe using an appropriately sized hook for the likely size of your target fish along with properly [00:13:00.504] handling can reduce the 2.7% mortality rate even further. So if you're gonna practice catch and release, using the least impactful method is the moral choice.
Lastly, I tell people to avoid anthropomorphism, which is defined as giving animals human traits or emotions. Many biologists and scientists are told to avoid this practice as wild animals, especially fish, do not perceive the world as we do. Yes, getting hooked in the mouth is not an ideal situation [00:13:30.475] for a fish, but using descriptive words like pain, sadness, or panic are human definitions of our own experience. They most likely do not apply in the same way or at all for a fish. Tom, you also mentioned prioritizing family, friends, and memories around fishing. I completely agree. People only protect what they love. Getting people involved in fishing and, in my opinion, catch-and-release fishing helps create more stewards of the natural [00:14:00.240] world."
Well, thank you, Patrick. That's a very articulate and accurate answer. And you know, when I talked about catch-and-release fishing, not really protecting a species, I was more thinking of trout streams and stream fish. And you are right, I also saw the effect of the striped bass moratorium back in the, I don't know, was it 1980s, [00:14:30.120] 1990s? I can't remember, but I do remember that after that the striper population went crazy, and it did have an effect. So yes, I still don't think that being a catch-and-release angler necessarily makes you a conservationist, but it certainly does help the resource. I think that that's still habitat issues and public access issues are far more important than catch and release. But [00:15:00.149] it is a good tool in certain situations, and you're absolutely right that in places like The Bahamas and the Amazon, it's made a big difference to the economy of the area. So thank you for those thoughts, and I really appreciate you taking the time.
Here's an email from Hannah. "My husband and I learned to fly fish a few years back, and we were always looking for tips to make things a little easier. In the warmer months, we get out to fish every few weeks. When we pull our reels out, we almost [00:15:30.269] always forget what size leader we have on. Do you have any tips on how to keep track of which leader you have on your line? Is there a way to check the size of a mysterious leader?"
That's a good one, Hannah, because I do the same thing. I might not use a reel for a couple months and I'll forget what what leader is on there. And there's a pretty easy way to to do that. First of all, you got your reel on your rod. And so you've got a measuring tool. Your leader's gonna be, you know, somewhere between 6 feet [00:16:00.360] long and maybe 12 feet long. And so you pull it outside the rod and measure it against the rod and just estimate how long the leader is. So you got the length pretty easily. And then the tippet size that it ends in, hopefully you have tippet spools in your pack or your vest or whatever, in your pocket, and those are good measuring tools. So you take a couple spools of tippet out and just pull a little bit off the spool and lay it up against [00:16:30.350] the end of the tippet and eyeball it so you can estimate, you know, that's either 3x, or 2x, or 4x, or 6x, whatever, just by holding it against a piece of known diameter.
The other option is to carry a micrometer or a liter gauge, a tippet gauge. It's hard to find tippet gauges these days. We used [00:17:00.399] to carry them a lot, and some people used to carry a micrometer. If you really wanna know, micrometer is a nice tool, but it's another gadget you have to carry around, and they're not cheap. So if you can find a leader tippet gauge, I'm sure they're still being sold, they're just like little feeler gauges, then you can tell what the end of the leader is. Now, there's another option. When you put your reel away, just write down what leader is on [00:17:30.240] the line, and write it on a sticky note and stick it inside the reel.
Here's an email from Tyler from California. "Just the other day, I was fishing a beautiful small river at one of our state's national parks for native rainbows. The fishing was incredible, and they were looking up and eating all sorts of dry flies. And I'm a sucker for prime summertime dry fly fishing and hoppers, [inaudible 00:17:56.787], and other terrestrials are on the menu. [00:18:00.224] Anyway, my question is about a theory I came up with to explain a phenomenon I observed down the river, and I wanted your opinion. So the fishing was great, and I got to an island and noticed that the section of the river on the east side of the island had a photographer near the bank. So I crossed the river and fished the west side of the island. Here, the fishing was incredible. Every pool or piece of pocket water had trout coming up to look at the fly with many eat. When I got to the other side of the island, I couldn't go any further upstream [00:18:30.634] because there was an impassable waterfall. Here, I also noticed a lot of people by the waterfall and some were even in swimsuits. I then decided there was a hiking trail to the falls. So after enjoying the waterfall, I decided to work my way back fishing the east side of the river. I was initially surprised as the fishing all of a sudden went cold as ice. I didn't see fish rising to even look at the fly.
Here's where my theory comes in. You've talked in past podcasts about trout [00:19:00.204] being selective. I was curious if the trout also display other learned behaviors like avoidance of areas of a river with a lot of pressure or where they can see people often. Upon looking around after having no luck on the east side of the island, I noticed that I could easily see people on the hiking trail from my vantage point on the river. The trail itself was pretty close, and it wouldn't be too difficult for a hiker to come down and take a dip in the cold water on a hot day. My theory [00:19:30.065] is perhaps this section of the river had less or much spookier fish or they avoided this section of the river altogether because they might always be noticing hikers that might come down for photography, quick swim on a hot day, or other activities.
Interestingly, I noticed as I got toward the end of the east side right before the front of the island where I initially decided to fish the west side first, there was a fantastic-looking hole that was still on the east side. But here, the river bent slightly [00:20:00.015] and was further away from the trail and there were some large boulders on the bank obstructing the view to the hiking trail. I decided to sneak down and try my luck, and sure enough, when my dry fly hit the water, I saw the first fish rise on that entire side of the island. Am I ridiculous for coming up with such a theory, or is there some reason behind my thought processes that the fish might be spooked regularly by the hikers and other park visitors in this section of the river close to a hiking trail and may [00:20:30.115] just avoid this area altogether? Thanks again for all you do for our amazing sport, and tight lines."
Well, Tyler, I think there's there's a couple of things that could be happening here. One is that the east side of that island just might be better habitat. So it may have nothing to do with people on the bank. In my experience, if there is regular traffic along [00:21:00.259] a trout stream, in other words, the fish see people pretty much all day long, they're gonna become accustomed to the people walking along the bank. I've also seen in places where where beavers frequent a pool regularly or cattle stand on the bank, and fish get habituated to that and learn that whatever's on the bank is not a threat. So if that bank had regular traffic, and it's a [00:21:30.109] good place to feed, if it's good habitat, trout are gonna go there no matter what, even if they're disturbed.
Now, if the traffic is kind of irregular and, you know, once an hour or something somebody might walk down to the bank, yeah, the fish are gonna get spooked, and they're probably gonna stay spooked. I doubt if they'll avoid that area. If it's good feeding habitat, if it's good habitat, they're gonna stay there, but they're probably gonna feed [00:22:00.000] early in the morning or in the evening. And during the day, they're just gonna learn to either go go somewhere else that's not too far away or to just not feed during the day. So who knows, but I would critically look at the habitat on both the east and west banks and tell and try to figure out, is it equally good habitat or is there just better habitat on one side of the island? And then [00:22:30.089] you need to look at things like, where's the sun falling on that? Not that fish avoid sunlight entirely, but they will tend to go toward the shade when the water gets lower. And so, it's an interesting theory and it's fun to think about this stuff, and that's just my experience that, you know, if an area is good habitat, fish are gonna use it. And if they're regularly disturbed, then they're probably gonna ignore it. And [00:23:00.130] if they're irregularly disturbed, then they're gonna be spooked.
Here's an email from Owen from Fredericksburg, Virginia. "The basic question is I have a 12-year-old nephew who we introduced to fly fishing in Western North Carolina. He's amazing me on how fast he is learning, and I really enjoy spending time with him on phone calls and doing live video chats and fly tying together. He discovered small streams in western Carolina and recently bought a three way rod [00:23:30.200] he saved up for. I told him I would get him a reel for it. I work as a museum curator, enjoy collecting old fly fishing equipment when I get the chance. I have two older Orvis reels I thought might work. One is an Orvis Rocky Mountain Large Arbor 3/4, while the other is a smaller Orvis Madison, but is a 6/7. My question is, which would be better for my nephew's 3-weight? The 3/4 Rocky Mountain is oddly large, while the 6/7 Madison is simpler and seems more in line [00:24:00.309] with what he would need on small streams in the mountains. Does the specified line size really matter that much for small stream reels?"
Well, Owen, I really don't think it matters. You know, I would show him both reels and say, "Which one do you like better?" Yeah, the 3/4 Rocky Mountain would look a little large on a 3-weight rod, but it might balance it better than the Madison. The Madison was a fairly heavy reel, but, you know, you can try [00:24:30.019] putting both reels on the rod, see how it balances, see what he likes. Because you're right, the reel isn't important in small mountain stream fishing. You're probably never gonna have much use for the drag on the reel. You're gonna strip fish in. And so I would just ask him. You know, reel choice is often a lot more personal preference than it is technical. So, ask him. He might like one color better. He might like the feel of one better, and [00:25:00.859] and go from there. But, yeah, the reel doesn't matter in fishing like that.
Here's an email from Jace from Alberta. "First, I wanted to say thank you for the help you've given me over the years. I learned how to fly fish almost exclusively from Orvis videos on YouTube and have found real passion for the sport since. I've been fly fishing for about five years and recently have gotten into tying flies. I really enjoy it and catching fish and flies I tie is very rewarding. However, I'm having a hard time managing [00:25:30.369] deer or elk hair. I've been working on tying mayfly patterns for the summer and specifically I've been tying a lot of sparkle duns. When I'm laying my stacked bundle of hair on the hook shank, I cannot seem to get it to stay on top like it does in the videos. I try to do the pinch wrap, gathering wraps, laying down a thread base before, etc., but no matter what, the hair seems to spin around the hook and then I have to trim the hair below and off to the sides before I dub to support the wing itself. [00:26:00.634] Are there any tricks you have for this, or is it simply just a matter of spending time behind the vice? Thanks again for all you've done for the fly fishing community."
Well, Jace, one of the things about tying particularly comparaduns and sparkle duns is getting the right hair. So, you need some really fine hair, and you'll see it's sold as comparadun hair, sparkle dun hair, whatever. It should be fairly fine hair, [00:26:30.224] and it should have nice even tips. You know, the same hair you'd use for bass bugs or muddler minnows and things, not gonna work as well. So, make sure you have the right hair. And as far as getting that hair to stay on top, I'm trying to think, you do wanna use a pinch wrap. And when you use the pinch wrap, kinda sneak your your fingers underneath the hook shank and then pull up just a bit on [00:27:00.115] that hair with kind of the bottom side of your fingers. And also make sure that you're holding on to the butt ends of the hair as you do that pinch wrap. Do not let go of the butt ends of the hair because that will make it spin around.
Couple other things you can try is to take a few turns of thread on a bare hook shank and then put a tiny drop of super glue on there [00:27:30.335] and then wrap the thread back and forth a little bit and that will that will keep the thread from spinning around the hook. But I think just practice in finding the right hair will do it. And you're gonna sometimes have some hairs that stick underneath the hook, and those can be trimmed away. The other thing is, I've just thought of that, you might be using too big of a hunk. So try using, you know, 25% [00:28:00.744] less and 50% less of the bunch of hair that you have on there. Maybe you're just using too much hair. If you use too much hair, then, yeah, it's gotta go around the hook because you got too big of a diameter to just sit on top of the hook shank. So anyways, try those. Hope they work for you.
Here's an email from Ben from Northern California. "I have a question regarding tight line nymphing. After making a cast, how do I know when my point fly is on the bottom? Am [00:28:30.394] I just letting it sink and watching for the sighter material to settle or look like it has hit bottom? I'm unsure when to start guiding my flies downstream, and it seems like sometimes they're not quite in the strike zone, and perhaps my guiding them prevents them from getting there."
So, Ben, first of all, you probably don't want your your flies right on the bottom. You want them above the bottom. Those fish are gonna have trouble seeing them if they're right on the bottom. And they [00:29:00.115] generally tip up a little bit to eat nymphs. Not always, but usually. And so, here's what I would suggest. First of all, in shallow water or slower water where you can see your flies, drop your flies in the water and see how long it takes them to sink. Now, when you get into some current, they're gonna sink a little slower. So you need to bear that in mind. But you'll have [00:29:30.125] an idea of how fast those flies sink, and then you should have an estimate of how deep the water is.
But, you know, the way I do it is I add weight until I occasionally tick bottom, and that usually tells me that I'm about in the strike zone. You know, your occasional ticking bottom means you're probably banging against a rock that's sticking higher above the water than the rest. If you're constantly tick, tick, tick, ticking on the bottom, then [00:30:00.214] then you're too deep and you need to start leading the flies a little bit quicker. Tight line nymphing when you stop your rod tip, make sure you stop it high. Don't don't drop the rod tip and then raise it because that's gonna pull your flies back up. So you wanna get them to sink right now and then kinda follow them down with the rod tip. So I hope that helps, but I think that just rearranging your weight and rearranging the time that you allow the flies to settle until you occasionally tick bottom is [00:30:30.140] gonna be the best thing to do.
John: Tom, this is John from Virginia. I do most of my fishing in the western part of Virginia, but I also do quite a bit in northwest Pennsylvania and south New York with my father-in-law. I was listening to your podcast, as I often do, and I heard a gentleman call in about rusty hooks. And you gave him your take on the fact that the mechanical status, the structure, the strength of a rusty hook [00:31:00.279] comes in question. Well, I also have another anecdote to add. A few weeks ago, I was fishing on one of the tributaries of Quaker Lake, which was a man-made creation by damming up the Allegheny River. I caught a few blue grill on a 9-foot-4 wake. I think I had a 5x leader and tippet on, and I saw a fairly large rainbow trout. [00:31:30.769] So I started to sight fish. Now this guy was probably...I'm not trying to exaggerate. He was probably 18 to 20 inches long. He was a very nice-sized trout.
So I tied a Schroeder's Parachute Caddis on that my father-in-law had given me. Who knows the area it came from. It was rusty. The eye was rusty. I didn't think anything about it. I'd had a clinch knot on. I cast out, and the trout hit it on the first pass and off we're going. The fight lasted about three seconds, [00:32:00.660] and my line went slack. Dejected for the day. No more fishing for that guy. Went home, came back the next day and I said, okay, I'm gonna tie a better knot. I tied a navy knot on and, lo and behold, sighted the same fish, similar fly, rusty hook, rusty eye. Almost the exact same thing happened, and it broke. And [00:32:30.134] I'm feeling dejected, thinking to myself that my fly-tying skills, or excuse me, my knot-tying skills left a lot to be desired.
Anyway, I was driving home, and I started searching your podcasts, and I found one that you had had in 2024, Robert Keatley talking about how or why knots break and the fact that most of them break at the eye of the hook caused by stretching of the line and microscopic abrasions that [00:33:00.055] act as a cutting-like motion. And I thought, aha, here I was fishing with a hook, obviously, with the rust, that probably may exhibit that same effect. So here's my tip. Not only are rusty hooks bad because they could be mechanically inferior to a good hook, but also there are probably microabrasions in the hook eye that could possibly lead to a failure of your knot.
So my first question is, do you know [00:33:30.055] of any method to use on old or even non-old hooks, new hooks to smooth out the abrasion of the hook eye? And my second question is, what do you think the value is of passing the tippet through the eye of the hook twice before [inaudible 00:33:51.752] either a Davy knot or a clinch knot? I used to do this all the time growing up as a kid. Bass fishing, that's just what we did. I knew no different. [00:34:00.424] But I wonder if you had any opinion or actually any anecdotal evidence that this might be a valuable thing to do. I find it hard to do with my 58-year-old shaking hands just getting a small tippet through a small eye once. So I haven't really been trying to do as a routine basis. Anyway, thanks for everything you do, and I hope to hear from you.
Tom: Well, yeah, John, that's a very good point. Besides being weak, rusty hooks are gonna have [00:34:30.324] abrasions. Rust is pretty abrasive, and they're gonna have abrasions in the hook eye. I don't know of a way to remove that, and I would hesitate to remove it because anything you do to remove that rust is probably gonna weaken the hook eye, and I've had hook eyes break on older hooks as well. You know, one thing you could do is take a little tiny piece [00:35:00.144] of nylon stocking and draw it through the eye and see if it catches in the eye. That's what people use to test guides on rods for abrasion. But you know what? Rusty hooks are just not worth it. Just throw them away or put them in a display case or something, but rusty hooks are not worth using. And yes, going through the eye twice can help that. In fact, I know I've talked before about the Trilene [00:35:30.144] knot, which is simply a basic clinch knot where you go through the eye twice. And that would help if you had some abrasion on the hook eye. But, you know, it's not worth it. Just just get rid of those rusty hooks.
All right. That's the Fly Box. Let's go talk to Scott Barmby about Chesapeake Bay. Well, my guest today is captain Scott Barmby. [00:36:00.255] And Scott, you do a lot. You are a charter boat captain. You run schools. You tie flies. You do presentations. Tell us a little bit about all the things you do in your life.
Scott: Well, Tom, we have we have three different schools. We have Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia. Then I run what's called Rock on Charter Fishing. We have two boats on the bay, and we [00:36:30.010] do conventional spin and, you know, bottom fishing with the kids and the family plus fly trips. I'm in the stores a lot doing Rig 'em Rights and seminars. I'm gonna be in Virginia Beach this Saturday doing a, you know, casting tune-up clinic for anybody that wants to come in. So yeah, I mean, I was in Leesburg on Sunday. Tyson's on Sunday. Thursday, I'm in [00:37:00.659] Hill Country, [inaudible 00:37:02.662] Hill Country. And then Fridays, I'm in Richmond. Yeah, I'm all over the place.
Tom: Now, the Pennsylvania and the Virginia schools, are those freshwater schools or saltwater?
Scott: Pennsylvania is a predominantly trout streamer school. It's brand new, Hill Country shooting grounds. We're gonna help out up there, [00:37:30.050] my team from the Chesapeake Bay Fly Fishing School. And I've got some great folks who work for me. Duber, I think you probably know Duber from years back. He was a manager for Orvis. He bleeds trout. I don't bleed trout. I'm a saltwater guy. I'm flats. I'm tarpon. I'm stripers. I'm redfish. I'm not a trout guy. While doing it, but [00:38:00.179] that's not my...you know, I live seven minutes from the boat ramp on the bay. It's kinda hard to go trout fishing. It's a two-hour drive. But the PA school will be predominantly a trout and streamer school. Our Chesapeake Bay school, which is Maryland, you know, we teach a cast is a cast, Tom, whether you're casting for a bookie with a 3-weight or casting a [00:38:30.360] 12-weight at tarpon. You gotta know how to make the line move and get it in front of a fish. So, you know, we teach casting. You know, in all the schools, I'll go over flies and equipment for both areas, for fresh and salt. But, you know, one school does lend a little bit to the other. And Virginia Beach, I mean, it's right on the bay, so it's a lot of salt.
Tom: Yep. [00:39:00.179] Yep.
Scott: It's a lot of salt.
Tom: And people can find these schools on the Orvis website. Right? They're listed there.
Scott: Yes. Yes, sir. They're all on the website. Yes, sir.
Tom: Okay. So the reason I wanna get you in here today was to talk about a place that, you know, unfortunately, I've never fished, and that's Chesapeake Bay. I mean, I've fished for stripers all of my...most of my fly fishing life in saltwater, and that's where, apparently, [00:39:30.150] most of our stripers come from, but I've never actually fished Chesapeake. So, I'd like you to talk about what it's like and how you fish it and the problems it has. We all know it has some problems, and what you see different these days that you never used to see.
Scott: Well, and I'll go through it, but as you all are seeing up there, and I have some friends in Rhode Island that fish a lot. There's not a lot of little fish around.
Tom: No. None.
Scott: Yeah. And [00:40:00.360] I have same problem here. But I'll get into that, and we'll get into that in a minute. So the bay is the largest estuary in the United States. It's like 100 and some miles long, 120 or something. I don't even know. It was formed by a meteorite that hit by Virginia Beach eons ago. It's pretty shallow. It does have a channel running down the middle, and we kinda break the bay into three different parts. The upper bay, which is above [00:40:30.505] the Bay Bridge, the middle bay, which is where I'm predominantly at, goes about down to the Potomac River, a little bit to Virginia line, and then lower bay, which is Virginia. And I fish the middle...I fish all of it actually, but, you know, at different times of the year. But I predominantly...my house is in the middle, and I fish the middle.
And right now, I mean, Tom, let's get into the good, the bad, and the ugly. The good is the water's pretty [00:41:00.030] clean. We have good water. The water is nice. You know, in the wintertime, it's crystal clear. We don't have a lot of sewage runoff. We don't have water treatment plants. We do have the Susquehanna that dumps some mud and stuff into it. And we do have, you know, some farmers up the ways. We are getting some chemicals out of it. But overall, the water health is pretty blessed good. That's not the problem [00:41:30.315] with the bay. Mother nature, you know, it's kind of a three-pronged problem. Mother nature has not provided with any really good spawning seasons the last few years. The weather hasn't been right. It needs to be cold and wet, and it hasn't been cold and wet. This winter was cold and wet, so we'll see what happens. [00:42:00.894] We really do hope that helps.
You know, so, you know, as we all know whether it's a trout, it's striper, no matter what it needs, it needs a couple things. It's good habit. It's food source. It needs structure at home. You know, we got good structure. You know, we got good habitat. You know, we're guilty of our own [00:42:30.164] demise. We've overfished it a little bit. You know, Maryland and Virginia are one of the few places that commercially fish for striped bass. I don't think in Mass, Vermont...I mean, Mass, Rhode Island, there's no commercial season for striped bass. You know, we have a recreational. So we have both. We have a netting season, hook and line season [00:43:00.215] for commercial fishermen. And I'm not a scientist, and I'm not gonna lay blame or point fingers, but you see it, I see it, we all see it, something's wrong. You know?
And again, it's a multi-pronged problem. It's not just one thing. You know, our commercial fisheries, you know, this year, like, right now, Tom, [00:43:30.014] my striped bass season is closed. From July 16th to to August 1st, you can't even target striped bass. So if you're fishing for...we have bluefish and red fish and flounders. If I'm throwing a [00:43:46.493] or I'm throwing a clouser, my clients were trying to fish in structure, I'm trying to find some fish, and I catch a rockfish, I gotta move. You know? We call them rockfish. [00:44:00.085] I'm sorry.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, people may not know that. I've heard it before, but rockfish are striped bass. Same thing, right?
Scott: Yeah. In Maryland, we call them rockfish. But so we're closed right now. We open back up August 1st. And the water's 87 degrees right now.
Tom: Wow.
Scott: Yeah, it's hot. I really don't wanna catch a striper right now. I'd [00:44:30.775] rather concentrate...you know, I'm doing early morning trips with fly anglers, and then I'm taking kids bottom fishing in the afternoon. So trying to stay away from...So our our water temps are high, they're trying to manage it. We do not have...we used to call it trophy season. It's when the fish from up your way come here in April, [00:45:00.675] that's closed. We're closed April 1st through May 15th so the big females can get in and out.
Tom: Is that new? Is that a new regulation, Scott?
Scott: Second year. This is the second year. So, that's good, Tom. I mean, listen, I'm guilty. I mean, I can tell you decades ago when we used to troll [00:45:30.105] and it was...you know, we'd go out and catch...you know, you were allowed one or two big fish per person, six people on the boat. We come back with twelve 40-inch breeding fish. Not a smart move, you know? So finally got that put away. So, again, we can't target in April or May. You know, that's one thing. We got another really big problem, [00:46:00.090] and it's a really, really big problem. We have a...I don't know what you call them up there, maybe pogies or menhaden.
Tom: Bunker. Bunker. Yeah.
Scott: Bunker? Yep. All all the same fish. There's a Canadian company in the bay that is allowed, and these are actual numbers, so get ready, 51,000 metric tons. Okay? That's 1.1 million [00:46:30.489] pounds of menhaden they're allowed to extract from the Chesapeake Bay. Okay? Not in Maryland, only in Virginia. They're not allowed in Maryland. And they use planes and helicopters and trollers. I don't know about the helicopters. I know they use planes. I've heard they use helicopters. Tom, this time of year, four years ago, five years ago, six years ago, [00:47:00.230] I'd be looking at 1 to 3 acres of, I'm gonna call them menhaden up on top, and then you'd have bluefish and rockfish striping through them. I don't have any bait. There's no menhaden here. None. No. Maybe, we call them peanut bunker, maybe some little ones, but I have no acres of fish. Okay? So if you figure you're out of [00:47:30.239] full-size bunkers, probably, what, 4 to 6 to 8 ounces, you know, you take 1.1 million pounds, that's like 2 million fish. You know, if you go to the grocery store and you take 2 million food items out, what's left for you to eat?
Tom: Not much. And then isn't it the primary source of food for large stripers and bluefish bunker are menhaden?
Scott: And your redfish and your cobia.
Tom: [00:48:00.219] Yeah.
Scott: So it's definitely a situation they're looking into. A lot of politics about it, which I'm not gonna get into. But, you know, that's something that has to be looked into. So between the overfishing, not managing the fishery, and the removing of millions of pounds of food, [00:48:30.505] it's rough. It's rough. I mean, I have fished, there are fish here. But right now I should be catching 12 to 15-inch fish. I'm catching 25 to 32s.
Tom: That's the same thing we're finding up North as well.
Scott: I mean, you know, hopefully, we had it good. We won't know...I mean, I'll start seeing what this spawn is here shortly. [00:49:00.385] But, you know, Mother Nature needs to help us out. We need, you know, the governments to help us out. You know, we need...you know, now, I am a charter boat captain. I have people that wanna keep fish. Okay? We are allowed two striped bass per person on the...I'm a six-pack captain. I run six people. [00:49:30.795] I usually...you know, people wanna keep fish. You know, I got six people, I'll keep three fish and say, "Hey, that's six fillets. How much more do you need?" Our slot limit's 19 to 24. Especially if they're nice 24-inch fly fish, that's 6 nice fillets [crosstalk 00:49:50.610]. Yeah. And, you know, a lot of my clients, you know, I'll get them on the boat and I'll explain the situation. They're like, "Fine. [00:50:00.710] We'll keep, you know, bluefish, perch, croakers, spot, whatever else we catch." You know? And so, you know, we all need to do that. And somehow we gotta help, you know, look at the other issues and work on that. Maybe...I didn't fish that much, but I think it was 20-some years ago, there was a moratorium on striped bass.
Tom: Yeah, I remember that.
Scott: [00:50:30.230] Yeah. And it came back fantastically.
Tom: It sure did.
Scott: We don't want another moratorium. You know? So, you know, that's the good, the bad, and the ugly. Well, that's the bad and the ugly. Here's some good. Our redfish population, our bull redfish is off the charts.
Tom: Really? Tell me about that. Because I don't know much about redfishing in Chesapeake Bay. So tell me [00:51:00.150] about where they are and how you target them and everything.
Scott: All right. Your redfish, they start in the mouth of the bay in the spring, and they'll come all the way up to the middle bay by August. They're mid-30s to 50-inch fish. They're feeding on...we have [inaudible 00:51:20.230] on the same thing, and the menhaden they can find. If you [00:51:30.019] can find them, they will eat, and they will eat a fly. I had a manager of the Princeton Orvis store down the spring, and he got a nice one on fly. We got a couple more this year. Most of the folks are chasing them with spin, but they are 100% targetable with [inaudible 00:51:56.730]. I got a 10-weight with an intermediate [00:52:00.099] line, throwing a big half-and-half on a two-odd or a three-odd. And if you got them up on top and they're in a big school, there are acres of them, Tom. You will get hooked up, and it's a nice fight.
Tom: Yeah. That's a big redfish.
Scott: That's something that's...you know, I mean, so like I said, April [00:52:30.300] through May, we're closed down for striped bass. My boats are going to the Bay Bridge Tunnel today, and we are redfish fishing for those six weeks. We will start predominantly redfish fishing again here next week, and we'll go for the next six, seven weeks pretty much. I'll still have the family charters and things. [00:53:00.699] But most of my fly anglers and my, you know, serious catch-release spin anglers will be targeting bull redfish. So it's a good thing. It's a good thing.
Tom: Now, Scott, do you do you mainly see these big redfish in open water? Did they ever come up on the flats? Do you ever see them tailing and things like that?
Scott: Yes. And it's not in the spring. In the spring, they're shallow. [00:53:30.929] This time of year, you're gonna find them in 20 to 60 foot of water. Well, because the water's so hot. The water's so hot. In the spring, yeah. In the spring, we're in...you know, I'm eating [inaudible 00:53:46.307]. So, you know, you gotta be careful in the spring. But it's a wonderful, wonderful thing. I mean, and we [00:54:00.170] have cobia too. Yeah. So it's good. It's good. You know? It it's making up for, you know, not having the striped bass that we're so used to. Now, and Maryland had a had a very large commercial charter boat fleet, not six-pack boats. I'm talking 42-foot boats that are taking 20 people out and trolling 20 rods, 30 rods, [00:54:30.730] and running up and down the bay. That's kinda...a lot of those guys have sold their boats. They're still out there, but it's not like they used to be by any stretch of the imagination.
Tom: The fish aren't there, right? So.
Scott: Yeah. Now, another good thing about the bay, Tom, is our bluefish. Four years ago, we went from 10 bluefish to [00:55:00.050] 3 bluefish as a limit. Our bluefish have gone from an average of 10 to 12 inches to the next year they were 12 to 15, to they're 15 to 20. Now pretty much they're 20 to 30-inch bluefish. Which we had a two-day combo fly school last weekend. We got on blitzing blues with the students. Man, absolute [00:55:30.610] blast. You know, I mean, you got couple hundred blues just glitching in the surface. You put a fly in, it's gonna be eaten, you know, and you're gonna catch fish. And they're good. You smoke them. There's nothing better than smoked bluefish dip.
Tom: I love eating bluefish, in fact, a lot more than eating striped bass, and I love catching them. We don't we don't see as many up here, you know. They've always been cyclic. They've always gone through cycles through history. [00:56:00.844] And our bluefish seemed to be in a down cycle, but it sounds like yours are in an up cycle.
Scott: We have. I mean, I had never caught a bluefish over 30 inches until last year. Now, Tom, years ago, decades ago, 25, 30 years ago, they used to talk about trash cans full of 30-inch bluefish. Well, again, guess what we did? We [00:56:30.144] wiped them out. You know? So it took them 30 years to come back. Now, I've gone offshore in the ocean and caught big bluefish, but not the best. So the good news, our redfish and bluefish are on the way back and getting good. The good is everybody's realized we got a problem with a striped bass and we're trying [00:57:00.094] to do something about it. You know, will it be enough soon enough? Time will tell. You know, recreational guys, we have to, you know, not abuse the resource, be very careful with it. You know, everybody's gotta pitch in. You know? I mean, I have a bumper sticker that I take raw fish off the menu. You know? It on the menu in every restaurant [00:57:30.385] in Maryland. Take it off the menu, guess what happens? You know? We have more raw fish.
Tom: They aren't even that good to eat. I'm sorry. I don't like them at all.
Scott: I don't eat them. I don't eat them. I'd much rather have a perch taco, or give me some mackerel, or a slot redfish, or smoked bluefish. I mean...
Tom: Yeah, me too. Me too. [00:58:00.025] Definitely.
Scott: You know, I'm not a rockfish [inaudible 00:58:04.238]. I'm just not. I think...I'm not, I just don't...You know, we have a spot. It's a Norfolk spot. I don't know if you get them up there, but you get a 10 or 12-inch spot, it's phenomenal. It's phenomenal. So, you know, that's the good, the bad, you know. And if you're gonna fly fish down here, [00:58:30.085] Tom, we're running mostly...I run 8s and 9s and 10s, 10-weights. We're doing a lot of...I use the SA striper intermediate line a lot. You know? You know, I mean, that's what I'm throwing most. And especially on the 10-weights, I'm using intermediate line when I'm throwing for the redfish because I wanted to get down a little bit. [00:59:00.635] When the fish are down, I'm using SA's triple density full sink. And I'm using all the way down to an 8-weight. And you know, that's working good. You know, we're throwing lot of clousers, lot of half-and-halfs, game-changers, you know, the normal stuff. You know, nothing crazy. The bluefish gummy [00:59:30.335] minnows and the surf candies, you know, so they don't get torn...you throw a clouser in, yeah, you're gonna catch fish on it. After one or two, done. There's nothing left. You know? That's if you get it back.
Tom: Do you use poppers at all in the bay?
Scott: A lot. A lot. Early morning, gurglers and poppers, [01:00:00.135] on the rocks, on the jetties, in the structure. Yeah, we had 25, 30-inch rockfish on a flat rod with the poppers. It's kind of exciting.
Tom: Yeah. It's not much better than that.
Scott: Well, it is fun. And Tom, unlike Mass and Rhode Island, I think, we don't have flats. Now, down south, we do. [01:00:30.114] But where I'm at, everything's a boat. And we're running...we're on a boat 100% of the time. I run a 27 Pathfinder with [inaudible 01:00:43.492] motor and all the electronics you wanna name. You know, they're all over it. And it's a good fly fishing platform because it has a deck up front and I can run two anglers off it, one front and one back. [01:01:00.250] [inaudible 01:01:00.450] shallow. You know, you're gonna be...you know, if you go down south and you get back in the islands, you know, we can get in 2 foot of water. You know? And then I've got a [inaudible 01:01:15.595] custom tower boat with a full tower. That's for down south for spotting the redfish and the cobia and the bluefish. You know, we'll run that. But, you know, [01:01:30.960] there's not a lot different than what we do than what the guys do with those up there. You know? There's really...you know, it's the same. You know, it's fun. You know, the [inaudible 01:01:43.955], you know...
And Tom, here here's another thing. You know, and I told the customer this the other day. I said, right now...And I was telling you about all the menhaden in the acres. Right now, we should be going from [inaudible 01:02:00.070]. I should be running my radar, not my slide and down scan, and just going from breaking pod of fish to breaking pod of fish. Don't happen. Haven't seen it. You know? Few bluefish down south, but nothing in the middle bay. Nothing. You know? So, you know, you gotta change your tactics. So. But that's kind of the short and long of it. You know, [01:02:30.030] the schools are a lot, Tom.
Tom: Keep you busy.
Scott: Oh my goodness gracious. In 2026, we'll do 24 schools.
Tom: Wow.
Scott: Eight in Maryland, eight in Virginia, and eight in Pennsylvania. We'll do one and two-day school. So a one-day school, Tom, [01:03:00.130] it's three casting sessions in between 45 minutes and an hour. So a lot of casting. A lot, a lot of casting. And we go through rods, reels, lines, knots, leaders, handling fish, safety on the water. I mean, finding guides, working with guides, you know, handling fish. I mean, it's [01:03:30.000] very in-depth, you know. And then the two-day school is designed a little bit more for a little bit more an advanced beginner, intermediate. And we're doing a little bit more advanced casting, hauling, shooting line, bulging cast, roll cast pickups, things like that. And then the second day, we're on the bay and we're fishing. [01:04:00.934] So it's kinda like what they do in Vermont. It's like [inaudible 01:04:04.564] Vermont school. You know, it was modeled after that, and it's a great school, you know? And we're gonna do...in Pennsylvania, the Pennsylvania Trout School, we've leased 5 or 6 miles of private, wild, limestone, spring-fed, trout stream. And yes, [01:04:30.204] you're welcome to come down.
Tom: It sounds good.
Scott: It's full of wild brown trout. We've leased that for next year. So the two-day school will be on that. The two-day school is limited to eight students. So you have one instructor...on the saltwater school and the bay school, you have one instructor and one captain per boat. On our PA when we're on the stream, 01:05:00.315] you'll have, one guide per two students.
Tom: Wow.
Scott: So it's a good school. I mean, yeah.
Tom: Now, Scott...
Scott: Go ahead.
Tom: Kinda take us through...somebody wants to fish the Chesapeake, kinda take us through what the best times a year are for, you know, all of your different species. For stripers, for bluefish, for cobia, if [01:05:30.054] they want, or redfish, tell people when the best times are to to come down that way.
Scott: All right. It's pretty good in the seasons. So winter, it's a little bit hard on...well, it can be really good on the fly. Your fish from your big breeders from up in Mass are here December, January, February, and March. Phenomenal [01:06:00.494] 40 to 50-inch fish coming. They've gotta be up to get them on a fly, or you're using a sinking line and you're dredging. Which, I mean, it's fine. You can catch it that way. When we get into spring, we're the redfish. I mean, April and May, you know, you'll have...you can't target striped bass, so it's definitely a redfish. [01:06:30.014] Let's go. Summer, you know, your June, July, August, striped bass. I'm gonna tell you, our June topwater fishing for striped bass was the best we've had in years because they're all the big fish. You know, it was phenomenal. It's now kinda petered out a little [01:07:00.105] bit, but it's still good in the morning first thing for about the first half an hour. You get an overcast day, [inaudible 01:07:06.895] I'm throwing top water all day.
You know, the bluefish, July and August can be prolific. I mean, like I was telling you, it can be very, very, very, very good. Cobia and redfish, late July, August, little [01:07:30.315] bit in September, it's great. Once you get October, we're back into good striped bass. Water temperatures are cooling down. We'll have some redfish still around. The cobia are pretty much gone. Bluefish are definitely gone. But it's [01:08:00.204] really good, striped bass. You know, from October through March, the Chesapeake Bay is hard to beat for striped bass. It's just phenomenal fishery for that. And hopefully it stays that way.
Tom: Yeah. They're gonna be big this year.
Scott: Oh, I mean, a lot of people joined in the 50-inch club last year.
Tom: [01:08:30.024] Oh, boy. That's a giant striper.
Scott: Yeah. It's gigantic. And I mean, you fish Rhode Island and New Jersey. I take my Pathfinder and then my [inaudible 01:08:45.944] and bullfish New Jersey in the fall, and it's October. That's the model. But that's not the bay, so I'm not gonna talk about it. But, [01:09:00.694] I mean, the amount of big fish there last year, I've never seen it like that. You know, I mean, if you dropped a fly...if you had a fish and you dropped your fly in the water while you were, you know, taking a picture, you better watch out because you're probably gonna lose your rod. It's like [inaudible 01:09:24.779] fishing. You know? I mean, it was it was crazy. And the bay [01:09:30.064] could be like that. Let me tell you, I've had December where I've had 40 and 50-inch fish swirling all over the place. You know? We have a nuclear power plant in the middle bay. So we have some warm water, which holds a lot of bait in the wintertime. I've caught some phenomenal fish there. Phenomenal. [01:10:00.050] Phenomenal, phenomenal. So, but that's that's kinda the short and long of the bay, Tom. It's a great place. You know, like you said, everything's [inaudible 01:10:12.859] and you're going through the bluefish up there. You know? And you guys got a lot of...your tuna fishing up there has been...the tuna been coming in close. So, you know?
Tom: Yeah. I've heard that.
Scott: Yeah. You know, and then we didn't talk about [01:10:30.010] another fish, which is mackerel. The mackerel have not been here the last two years, and I think it's because of our rain. We get a lot of rain. And the salinity isn't what they like. But we have had in years past, I mean, acres and acres and acres of mackerel. And you know, I mean, again, just get a fly in there, and you better be throwing a gummy or, [01:11:00.319] you know, a surf candy. You're not getting the clouser back.
Tom: Well, they must tear up a gummy pretty good too.
Scott: Gummy will last three fish.
Tom: Really?
Scott: You know? Yeah. If you're lucky. You know, it depends on if two of them try to eat it at the same time. So we had some really good [inaudible 01:11:22.522] two years ago. So, you know, the bay, I mean, our flounder, [01:11:30.500] we have flounder, but they're not as big as they used to be. You know? I mean and then the other thing we didn't talk about was black drum. You know? Talked about red drum. We got black drum, and you can catch them on the fly too. They're here. My creek by my house is loaded and loaded with juvenile black drum right now. You know? So, hopefully, that's a good sign of [01:12:00.720] what happens. And there's something else I didn't touch on. I just remembered it. Last year, we had the...we call them puppy drum, which is a redfish, 12 to 30 inches. We had a phenomenal puppy drum season. Phenomenal. I mean, the fly fishing around the docks and on the oysters, it was phenomenal. This winter, we had the bad freeze. My puppy [01:12:30.210] drum are gone. So, you know, that's Mother Nature. They weren't overfished. Commercial guys didn't get them. You know, just they got killed.
Tom: Just the weather.
Scott: Yeah, they got killed. Down in Virginia Beach, there was...you know, like, one of my captains says, the seagulls are gonna be very fat between all the, you know, baby striped bass and the redfish they got to eat this winter.
Tom: So a [01:13:00.130] freeze like that will kill the young striped bass as well?
Scott: Yep. Oh, yeah. The trout, we didn't talk about sea trout. We have good sea trout too. So, you know, sea trout are a little few and far between. We're seeing some, but, again, not last year. Yeah, we lost a lot of trout. We lost a lot of trout. We lost a lot of redfish. Because the little fish get up in those creeks. They get up in the creeks in the wintertime chasing food. Some of them [01:13:30.020] go deep, but, you know, a lot of them were in the creeks, and those creeks were solid. [inaudible 01:13:38.281] Now, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Tom: All right, Scott. Well, I wanna thank you for sharing all that with us. And hopefully when I come down to the Virginia Wine & Fly Fishing Festival this year, we can get out. [01:14:00.020] You offered it to me last year and it was cold and snowy, but maybe this year we'll have better weather.
Scott: Well, I'm trying to come down, you know, schedule permitting, a couple days before, a couple days after, and we'll go chase fish.
Tom: All right. Sounds good.
Scott: [inaudible 01:14:18.350]
Tom: Sounds good. All right, Scott. Thank you so much, and I'm sure we'll talk to you soon.
Scott: I'll see you in Virginia, and I'm sure I'll see you...[01:14:30.050] I'm gonna be in New Jersey...We're gonna be in the New Jersey show, and we're also gonna be in the Pennsylvania show.
Tom: Okay. Good.
Scott: I'm sure I'll see you at one of those. You know? So, have fun, Tom. It's good talking to you, and thank you.
Tom: Okay, Scott. Thank you. Thanks for listening to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at