What to do When you Encounter Lousy Fishing Conditions, with James Spica
Podcast Transcript:
Tom R.: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly-Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer, and my guest this week is James Spica. James is a fly-fishing journalist. He currently writes for "Tail Magazine." [00:00:30] James is also the fishing manager at the Orvis Royal Oak Store. So, a very experienced fly fisher. The topic today, which I think is a great one, James suggested it, was, what to do when conditions aren't perfect. Let's say you're on your way to a fly-fishing trip. You've been planning it for weeks or months. And you get there, and the water is too high, too low, too cold, too warm. What do you do? What kind of tactics do you employ? What do you look for? What kind of water do you look for? [00:01:00] What kind of flies do you use? We've all been there many, many times, seems most times for a lot of us. James has some great tips on both presentation techniques, water to look for, and some special fly patterns that he would never go anywhere without. I know you love those lists of must-have fly patterns. I hope you enjoy the interview.
Before we do the Fly Box, just a few [00:01:30] announcements. One is that people ask me frequently if I guide, and no, I don't guide, or I rarely guide. The only time I actually guide is for charities that I care about. Daniel Kimbro, a musician who is responsible for the theme music on the podcast these days, my new theme music, Daniel and I are going to auction off a fishing trip [00:02:00] and a private concert with Daniel. We're both going to guide someone, I think it's two people in this auction. Then Daniel is going to do a private concert. I'm going to shut up during the concert. You don't want me either singing or playing an instrument. Daniel is going to do the concert, and we're both going to do the guiding. The guided trip is through Can'd Aid, which is a great organization. In this case, it's called [00:02:30] Instruments For A Change. And they amplify the power of music for inspiration, learning, and connection.
What they do is they partner with nationally recognized musicians, donors, and corporate partners to donate new instruments in undeserved school districts nationwide. Places where school district can't afford to buy instruments for the students, or the students can't afford to buy their own instruments. They provide these kids with the tools to explore music [00:03:00] as a healthy outlet. To date, through this program, they've donated 5,000 instruments, 200 music teachers have been supported, and 10,000 students have been impacted. If you're interested in bidding on this trip with Daniel and myself, it should be fun, I'm looking forward to it. The link is called Fishin', "Fishin'" not "Fishing," but Fishin' With A Musician 2026. It's [00:03:30] on the Can'd Aid, that's C-A-N-'-D A-I-D. It's on their website. The auction closes October 30th. If you're interested in going fishing with us, you can bid now. The trip will either be in Tennessee or Vermont, depending on where the lucky recipient would like to go, either on Daniel's home territory in Tennessee, in the Smokies, or in my home territory, in the Green Mountains, in the [00:04:00] Battenkill area in Vermont. Again, that's October 30th. If you're interested, get your bid in.
I do have a couple of hosted trips coming up where I don't guide, the local guides guide, but I host. And I have one at the fabulous Baker Lodge, the Patagonia Baker Lodge in Patagonia. It's February 28th to March 7th. This one is not on the website as we speak. It's a new trip. It's a new [00:04:30] lodge for Orvis. It's been around for a few years, but it's new in the Endorsed program. It's run by the same people who own Magic Waters Lodge. That's February 28th to March 7th. Great trip on the Baker River and the Cochran, and some various small streams and lakes in the area. It's a beautiful area, lots of glaciers around. It's near the national park. It's a spectacular [00:05:00] location. Then I have two trips to The Bahamas. Lots of room on these. They're three-day trips, three day fishing, four nights lodging. One is at Swains Key, April 13th to 17th. The other one is at H2O Bonefishing April 17th to 21st. If you want to take both trips, which I'm going to do, you can go to Swains and fish, and then fly to Nassau and then fly to Grand Bahama to go over to H2O. [00:05:30] So, you could do those back to back if you wanted.
Now let's do the Fly Box. The Fly Box is where you ask me questions and I try to answer them, or you share a tip that you think is worthwhile for other listeners. Often, they are very worthwhile. If you have a question or a tip, you can send it to me at
Mark: Hi, Tom. I'm wondering whether juvenile or smaller versions of fish eat the same things as their larger relatives. I was fishing this week in an area of northern Maine, known for brook trout and salmon, and the going was tough because water levels were low. I eventually seemed to have the right setup and technique going, but I was catching smaller versions of the same fish I'd caught in previous years. It was still fun fishing, and I knew the big fish might simply not be there, they may have gone to the lakes or something. But [00:07:00] as I considered how to find them, if they were, I wondered whether the fact I was catching the young or smaller fish meant I had the right setup for the bigger ones. I was tempted to think that if I was getting strikes and catching fish, that was the best indication I could ask for I was on the right track, and I shouldn't change anything, but just keep looking for deep water and big fish by using what I had. But it struck me they might change their tastes as they grow. Maybe young fish are like young people and they're attracted to flashier things. I'm curious to hear your [00:07:30] thoughts.
I don't know the name of the fly I was using, but it was a bright pink and white streamer with a bit of glittery cellophane type stuff, making little flashes in the light, and I was fishing it on a sinking line with a loop knot in the leader, in case any of that matters. Thank you, as always. And thanks to Orvis for the conservation work and domestic products and everything else they do for us.
Tom R.: Mark, as most things of fly fishing, it's a yes or no question. When trout [00:08:00] are really young, when they're what we call young of the year, or YOY, or YOY, as might hear fish biologist call them, they eat little, tiny, almost microscopic plankton, daphnia, and very, very tiny things. They generally stay in the shallows and protected areas. Then when they get to be about 5, 6 inches, then they start to eat the same insects that the adult trout eat. [00:08:30] During a mayfly hatch, there could be 6 or 7-inch fish feeding that are yearlings, or there could be 17 to 22-inch fish feeding on the same flies. They do eat the same thing. What happens is, as trout get quite large, say over 12, 13, 14 inches, they can start to eat bigger food. And then some [00:09:00] of them will spend more time chasing bait fish and crayfish and frogs and mice and bigger pieces of food. But even the biggest ones will still eat the same insects at times that the little ones do. If you're getting strikes and catching fish, I wouldn't necessarily use something different. You're using the right thing, and there may just not be any big fish around. The big fish could be eating something different, but chances are, if there's a good [00:09:30] hatch, there's a lot of food around, they may be eating the same thing as the smaller fish, but you never know. It's going to vary, obviously, from river to river.
Here's an email from Bob from Maine. "On a recent podcast, you mentioned that fly lines are now really a weight heavy. Does this mean I might be okay using a five-weight line on my six-weight rod? I'm asking because I recently won a new six-weight rod and I don't have a reel for it. Should [00:10:00] I just buy a new line for my extra reel already loaded with a five-weight line? Or am I okay fishing my extra reel as is?" Bob, if I had said that all fly lines are overweighted by one line in the past, I misspoke. Some fly lines are overweighted by a quarter-line size, a half-line size, a full-line size, one and a half times, [00:10:30] and you have to really read the label on the fly line box to find out if it's true-to-line size, which means it's going to conform to the industry standards for a five-weight line. I don't know what five-weight line you have. It could be one of those overweighted lines, in which case, it'll work on your six-weight. But if it's a standard five-weight, it probably won't work that well on your six-weight. [00:11:00] It won't make the rod bend enough when you cast, and you'll have to push it a little bit harder to get the rod to bend. Again, fly lines are all over the place, and fly rods are all over the place too. It's become a confusing situation. I plan on making a video on this very subject, how to pick a floating line. I don't want to do it in a podcast because it's too visual. Over the [00:11:30] next six months or so, I'm going to make a video and show you which floating line would be appropriate in which situation. Sorry, you have to wait for that, but it's not an easy subject to tackle on a podcast.
Here's an email from Eddie from Golden, Colorado. "Thank you for everything you do for the fishing community, and more specifically, what you have done for me. I picked up your "Reading Trout Streams" book in the mid 1990s, [00:12:00] and you have been with me on my fly-fishing journey ever since. I have a product endorsement and a modest tip. I mostly nymph with small flies. In Colorado, we are allowed to use three flies. My standard rig is a small split shot and three flies. This provides a lot of options to put before the fish, but it also means more opportunities to get tangled, re-rig tangled. Re-rigging a four-piece setup is not quick for me and probably for some of your listeners, especially [00:12:30] if it is cold or windy. I read a tip by Charlie Meyers, the late Charlie Meyers, about the value of making up some pre-rigs in advance to save time and get back to fishing. Charlie suggested using a simple piece of cardboard to hold the rigs, no cardboard for me. As I found the Orvis dropper rig fly box, it has become one of my favorite pieces of equipment."
"This box has five removable inserts that can hold your pre-rigs without tangling or putting memory kinks in the line. [00:13:00] I usually put one pre-rig in each insert, but with smaller flies, you could fit 2 rigs per insert, 10 rigs In total. I make up the rigs at home based on what bugs are active. I don't do a lot of dry dropper fishing, but this box would be great for those rigs. My modest tip is that I begin these rigs with a tippet ring, then the split shot, and the three flies. The tippet ring slides onto a tab along the sides of the insert, which holds it in place. Then I wrap the line around the insert [00:13:30] and secure the third fly into the foam of the insert. To get back on the water, I select the rig and tie one simple knot, a clinch knot from the leader to the tippet ring, and I am back in business. Seeing that tippet ring never fails to put a smile on my face. I know I will be fishing soon." That is a great tip, Eddie, and absolutely, that kind of rig is much better done at home when you got good light and good magnifying [00:14:00] glasses and the time to put those rigs together. Great tip, and thank you for that.
Here is an email from Ellie from Ithaca, New York. "I've been fly-fishing for about five months now, and have a question about the roll-cast, specifically, how does one cast a decent roll-cast 20 feet or so on the first cast? Sorry for saying cast three times in one sentence. What I mean is, if my line is already on the water and extended it out in front of me [00:14:30] as it is after a cast, my next roll-cast unfrills nicely. Around me, there's a lot of tall vegetation on the sides of the stream, so row cast seem necessary if I'm trying to be sneaky and not spook the fish by getting in the water." Ellie, I think what you mean here is, how do you get the line out of the rod tip when you can't make a false cast because you got no room to make a false cast, so you have to roll-cast it out in front of you? You know [00:15:00] what? It's not pretty. The way I do it, this may not be the best way. This is the way I do it, is I make a quick little roll-cast with whatever line is out of the tip of the rod, and that's usually not enough to make a cast. Then I strip some line off the reel and I wiggle the rod back and forth to get a little bit more line outside the tip of the rod. Then I make another roll-cast, then I strip some more line, wiggle the rod to get some of the line out, and then [00:15:30] make a final roll-cast.
I don't think there's a pretty way of making a 20 or 30-foot roll-cast on your first cast. I think that you're going to have to make a few false roll-casts to get enough line out to make a decent roll-cast. It goes without saying that you should make those roll-casts where you are trying to get some line out away from where you're going to fish, maybe straight [00:16:00] downstream or something like that so you're not making these noisy roll-casts right in the area that you intend to fish. I hope that makes sense. That's the way I do it. Anyway.
Tom: Hello, Tom. This is Tom from The Woodlands, Texas. I wanted to go ahead and say thank you for emphasizing getting 4X leaders. I've got progressive lenses on my sunglasses, and I've tried flip downs, even doubling glasses up over my existing glasses, [00:16:30] and it never was very successful. The other day I bought some 4X leaders, just swap them out. I am not concerned about changing up my leader or changing how I've got my set up whenever I go from one section of the river to the next. Thank you very much. Also, I'd like to give a couple of shout outs. One to Anglers All in Littleton, Colorado. Want to thank Isa for giving me great advice on where to fish on water that I'd never fished before, and some good fly [00:17:00] advice. The second one is a shout out to Jacob at the Woodlands Orvis store. He recommended that I get the screw and studs for the ultralight wading boots. They are great boots. However the studs make it to where at my age, I don't slip and fall, and I appreciate it. Thanks a bunch, Tom.
Tom R.: Tom, glad you like those 4X leaders. They do make a huge difference at home and on the water. I use them for tying flies at home too. [00:17:30] Appreciate that. Thank you for your shout out to Anglers All and Jacob at the Woodlands Orvis store. Woodlands is a great store. And Anglers All is a terrific fly shop. I've been there myself a couple of times, I've done presentations there, and really enjoyed the crew there at Anglers. All. Another email. This one's from Tom from Colorado. "I have read mixed opinions on this, but I [00:18:00] wanted your opinion to set the story straight on what you think. I understand when tying on tippet, you want to maintain the taper by adding lighter sections. For example, if you have a 9-foot, 4X leader, you should tie on more 4X or go to 5X, then 6X et cetera. However, can you skip a size? I know you're going to say, "Of course you can, and there's no rules in fly fishing." However, would you see a material performance if you skip just one size, for example, go from 3X leader straight [00:18:30] to 5X tippet, skipping a 4X section? I would think skipping more than one size would matter, but what are your thoughts on skipping just one size?"
Tom, there's a couple things to take under consideration here. One is that when you skip a size and you tie, either your blood knot or your surgeon's knot, you're taking a chance that knot is...I don't think [00:19:00] is going to be quite as strong as if you only skipped one size. If I'm fishing a small stream and all the trout are small and I have a 3X tippet on, and I want to go to 5X. I'd probably just tie the 5X on the 3X. But if I were in a big river where there might be some big trout and I wanted a good presentation, let's say I was fishing a streamer with 3X [00:19:30] and I wanted to go to 5X or even 6X, I would take short 6-inch sections. If I'm going from 3X to 6X, I would tie on a piece of 4X, a piece of 5X about 6 to 8-inches long, and then my 6X tippet.
Two reasons for that. One is that I think the knots are going to be stronger between each section, even though you're adding an extra knot, I think it's still going to be a stronger connection overall. Also, [00:20:00] the leader will taper a little bit better if you skip a tippet size on your leader, it's not going to be under most circumstances. If you're fishing a long cast with a dry fly and you want to be delicate, I think you need that extra piece in there to just slow down the end of the leader, make it a little more air resistant. Otherwise, you might see a little hinge in the leader. You can do it again. As you suspect [00:20:30] I'm going to say, you can do it, and it really depends. In trout fishing, I like to not skip an X size. Now, salt water fishing, yes. Salt water fishing, I'll often go from 40-pound to 20-pound to 16-pound or something like that. I don't know what those diameters are, but doesn't seem to matter in the bigger sizes as much. But in the smaller sizes, I think you need to be careful.
Here's an email from [00:21:00] John. "Just caught up on a couple of episodes, and have a question and tip regarding some Fly Box discussions. First, regarding a good prospecting fly. You said visibility was important, but isn't visibility always important? I admit I have poor eyes, but hatch or no hatch, I hate it when I can't see the dry fly. I typically will add some white or orange parapost material on all flies, including elk hair caddis, etc. Do you think this negatively impacts phishing? If not, [00:21:30] why doesn't everybody do this? Second. On swinging a streamer, my tip is I have pretty good luck with adding a lightly weighted nymph below the streamer. My favorite is a girdle bug. My theory is the streamer gets the fish's attention, but the nymph rising up at the end of the swing becomes irresistible. What do you think?" Well, first of all, John, I do think visibility is always important, but I don't think it's so important when you're fishing a hatch [00:22:00] because you're looking for the rise and you're casting to a rise. Sometimes you can't see your fly. Sometimes you want to fly with a dark wing, and it's a small fly like a little bluing olive. You just cast it to where you think the fish is, and you just gently set the hook if you see a rise in the area.
It's not always critical. When you're prospecting, yes, because you want to know exactly where your fly goes. Well, in a hatch, you want to know exactly [00:22:30] where your fly goes too. But I think it's more important when you're prospecting, when you don't have any visibly rising fish so you can see where your fly is. I don't think it's a bad idea to add a little bit of white or orange parapost material. I do that on a lot of my own flies. I don't make it too overt. I just put a little bit on there, because I think if you put too much orange on top of them, the fish might see that [00:23:00] and it might put them off. I don't know for sure. But I think it's a good idea on nearly all flies, if you have trouble seeing them, put a little fluorescent orange parapost or a similar yarn. I like the Fulling Mill Ultra Dry Yarn. They have a color that's a bright, bright orange. It's highly visible, and you don't need more than a little snippet of it [00:23:30] on top of the fly to really keep an eye on your fly. Regarding swinginga streamer with a lightly weighted nymph. I think that's a great idea. I think more people should do it. It works. It works really well. As you said, sometimes a streamer will get a fish's attention, it'll follow, but maybe won't commit. The streamers may be a little too flashy or a little too big, but when they see that nymph swinging behind it, they'll eat that. I think that's a [00:24:00] great idea, and I think more people should fish streamers that way.
Here's an email from Arthur from Spain. "Here's a tip in response to the listeners' question on September 24th podcast. Instead of trying to insert head cement into a small space after the whip finish, try stroking a tiny bit of super glue onto the thread itself right before executing the whip finish. This technique has its own challenges, but is quick and has worked well for me." Thank you, [00:24:30] Arthur. That's a good idea. Some people I know that Tim Flagler does this at times, will just put a little super glue on the thread and then just take three or four tight turns and not even whip finish, because that super glue will hold that head pretty well. You can even, if you want, if you're putting a little super glue on there, you can even try eliminating the whip finish. It should hold up very well. It does for me anyways. I've tried it, and it works fairly [00:25:00] well.
Hunter: Hey, Tom. My name's Hunter Evans. I'm from Utah. I'm a 25-year-old fly fisherman. I've been fly-fishing ever since I could remember. I want to reach out to you with a quick question on dry flies. I've been tying a lot of my own patterns now, and I'm really falling in love with that, and just fishing small streams around where I live. I had a question in regards [00:25:30] to fly floating. I notice when I'm fishing, of course, eventually, my flies are going to start sinking. I'm curious to see if you have a favorite floater that you use that just get more out of your dry fly, or if you have specific tying methods or tips that allows your dry fly to [00:26:00] float a little bit longer. I've been tying a lot of catskills style dry fly, so if you have any thoughts on those or any of the questions I asked, I'd love to hear back. Thanks, Tom.
Tom: Well, Hunter, I do have preferred potions that I like to use for dry flies. I use fly dip, which is a liquid, first. Leaves a kind of [00:26:30] pale white film on the fly of silicone, but that'll come off after a couple of casts. And that penetrates into all parts of the fly and really waterproofs it. I like liquid. I'm not a big fan of the paste dressing. I think it kind of gums up flies. On bigger flies, it makes them float well, but I'm not a big fan of the paste. I'll use it occasionally, but I like that fly dip. Then, to retreat the flies, once [00:27:00] you fish that fly for a while or caught a fish, it's not going to float that well. I like the high float Shake-and-Flote, which is a silicone powder with some water absorbing beads inside it. I use that, put it in there and shake it up a few times and then refloat the fly. Now, you said catskill dry flies. Catskill dry flies are not great floating [00:27:30] flies. You're going to have problems keeping them floating. They were developed for more flatter water. The flatter water that you would see in the catskills big flat pools, and gentle riffles and things like that for imitating mayflies. Catskill dry flies are not super great floaters. They'll float fine, but they won't float [00:28:00] as well and continue to float as well as, say, parachute or a wolf or obviously a foam bodied-hopper or foam-bodied fly, or even an elk hair caddis. Just know that those catskill dry flies that you love to tie, and I love them and they're beautiful flies, are just not going to float as well as most other dry flies.
Okay. Here's one from Alex, an email. "I've been fly-fishing for five years and tying for about a year. [00:28:30] One maddening problem I have encountered is when I'm tying nymphs and I can't get the bead around the bend of the hook. For example, I would be tying a size 18 and trying to use the corresponding size 2 millimeter bead as the charts I looked up indicated, but it just wouldn't fit. I would bump up to a far too big bead for my hook size. Although they sank great, but they did not have the streamlined look I was going for and required a huge amount of tying thread behind the bead head to lock it in place. [00:29:00] One night I was watching a video for a new pattern, and the fly tire pinched the barb in his vice before he put the bead head on. I've seen this many times before and assumed it was because they liked to fish barbless as I do. However, I would wait to pinch my barb as I was about to tie my fly on my leader at the water's edge. Finally, the light bulb went off and I pinched the barb in the vice and was able to get the appropriate size bead on. Is this what was actually causing the issue, as it seems it was, or is it something else? [00:29:30] It seems so glaringly obvious, it's kind of embarrassing to admit, but is this a common issue? Huge fan of the podcast. I especially love the recent one where you were interviewed about the history of Orvis graphite rods. Thanks."
Alex, that does help, making the hooks barbless. And you should know, and everybody should know that there is very little standardization in [00:30:00] hook size and very little standardization in the bead size, the hole in the bead. They're all over the place. There is no standard, so you just have to fiddle with them and figure out what bead goes on what hook. Yes, absolutely. Barbless hooks, if you buy barbless hooks, nearly any size bead will go on them because the barb is a thing that usually keeps the bead from going [00:30:30] around the bend. Often, when I force a bead around the bend, I will debarb the hook. If I use enough force, if I use a pair of forceps and force the bead around the bend, it's going to push down the barb anyway. But yes, it's a good idea if you're having trouble getting beads on to make your hooks barbless first, and then nearly any size bead will slip onto the hook with a lot more ease.
Here's an email from Peter. "I recently observed [00:31:00] some trout behavior that I had not seen before. Illinois, which doesn't have much successful trout spawning or summer carryover stocks trout in both spring and fall. Some sites such as the stream I was fishing this week have two-week early catch and release season before the regular fall trout season opens the third Saturday in October. The recently stocked trout, pretty nice size. I got a bunch of 16 to 17-inch beautifully colored and fat rainbows were chasing each other around the pools. I [00:31:30] also had other trout closely following trout that I was playing. And a few pairs were going in very tight circles, head to tail and head to tail. At one point, I had a good close view of the trout in the circles, and it appeared that they were nipping each other's tails. What's this all about? I thought this might be some spawning behavior, but this was October, not the spring rainbow spawning season. I then thought that maybe they were trying to establish dominance or pecking order [00:32:00] in their new home pool. Does this sound reasonable? Or do you have any other explanations or ideas?"
Peter, a number of things this could be. One is that there are some fall spawning rainbows that they have developed in hatcheries so that the fish will spawn in the fall instead of the spring. They monkey with their photo period and get them to spawn in the fall. It's possible it's spawning behavior. But I suspect it's just left over [00:32:30] instinct from being in those hatchery ponds where they're swimming around and around in circles all day long. They get in a pool, and if the water's not really fast, they're going to do the same thing that they do in those hatchery tanks, is swim around and around. And yes, hey do nip each other. What exactly this is, I don't know, if they're trying to stay together or it's [00:33:00] aggression. I'm not exactly. You will see this also in wild trout, not to the degree that you saw, but I've spent a lot of time this summer watching some undisturbed wild trout in a local stream. They're rainbows too.
I was blown away by the amount of time they spent shuffling around in a pool and chasing each other. The dominant fish usually [00:33:30] doesn't want a smaller fish in front of it unless it's visually isolated, so if there's a rock or something in between them, it's okay. But that bigger fish or the dominant fish does not like somebody getting the food upstream of him or her. They do it in the wild, they do shuffle around, they do chase each other. Usually don't nip unless they're really, really upset. Again, I was surprised at the amount of this shuffling around [00:34:00] and chasing each other that wild undisturbed trout did in a stream. That is the Fly Box for this week.
Let's go talk to James about what to do when conditions just aren't right. My guest today is James Spica. And I've had James on the podcast before. What did we talk about before, James?
James: We talked about urban [00:34:30] fishing last time.
Tom R.: Urban fishing.
James: We were talking about urban opportunities, carp, and both, and all sorts of cool stuff like that.
Tom R.: Which is always a popular topic on the podcast. But you had an idea, and I should introduce James. Kanes is the fishing manager at the Orvis Royal Oak Store outside of Detroit in Michigan, and also writes for "Tail Magazine," which is a saltwater [00:35:00] only fly-fishing magazine. A great magazine. It's got a new editor, Eddie Nickens, who is a cool guy and a quality guy. It's a great magazine. Are you writing for anyone else, James?
James: Not currently. I have written for many magazines in the past. "Covey Rise," "American Angler," "Eastern Fly Fishing," all those. But right now, I'm editing for Tail as well.
Tom R.: Oh, you're editing as well. [00:35:30] Wow.
James: Yes. I'm a senior contributor and one of their editors. I do other stuff other than just write for them. That's really who I'm with mainly now.
Tom R.: Great. If you're in the fishing business, you probably need two jobs. It's not exactly an easy way to make a living, as all of us know. I'm sure you love the writing too, I can tell.
James: Oh, I love it. I love it.
Tom R.: I can tell. It comes through in your [00:36:00] writing. Let's talk about your topic today, which I think is going to be super interesting to the podcast audience.
James: I was hoping, and again, thank you for entertaining me on this. I was hoping to talk about the situation that we've all been in before. Those of us who have limited time to fish will arrive at a destination [00:36:30] or have a trip planned, or potentially just only have one day to fish locally. That one day or that destination or that trip is just the worst conditions you can imagine. Being from Michigan, I have a nasty tendency to bring cold fronts with me down to salt water destinations.
Tom R.: Me too.
James: It is just terrible. [00:37:00] You get there, and whether or not it's high, dirty water, flooding conditions, or in salt water, a cold front and a bunch of wind. Or perhaps you get out West and the water is too warm, and you've got say Hoot Owl restrictions placed. You've got to pivot or make the most out of a trip because you only have so [00:37:30] much time. Personally, it's a source of anxiety sometimes. I'll be rabidly checking the weather and checking the conditions a week before, six days before, five days before, and freaking myself out. I thought it would be really cool to talk about the idea that you can catch fish in nasty conditions, and what to do in those situations.
Tom R.: Wouldn't you agree that about [00:38:00] 80% of the fishing trips we take conditions are not ideal, maybe 90%?
James: Oh, yes.
Tom R.: It's never going to be perfect. I can't tell you that the percentage that I've had on going fishing. It's just nearly always not ideal conditions.
James: I think that a lot of the time, because it's very interesting coming [00:38:30] from a writing and magazine, media background as well, we tend to write about once-in-a-lifetime hatches, we tend to read stories about banner days of fishing or ideal conditions, and it just doesn't pan out for the average angler like that.
Tom R.: No. It doesn't pan out for anyone, even the people that are writing those stories. Right?
James: That's right. I've broken it down into some general tips. [00:39:00] And then briefly going into talking about specific, I guess, troubling conditions that you might hit, like high water, high wind, low water, cold front, things like that. I'm ready when you are.
Tom R.: Go ahead. It's your podcast. I'm just listening.
James: Thank you again for having me on, and we'll talk general first. [00:39:30] The biggest thing that I would like to first start with is, don't lose hope. If you are going to a place, you only have limited time, or you only have limited options for fishing, and the conditions aren't good. Don't lose hope. A big thing is, fish have to feed. They have to eat. They can go off the feed for a day, maybe two, but they still have to survive, they still have to eat. [00:40:00] So, it's important to remember that they can't stay locked jawed for long. The other thing that I want to preface this whole discussion with is that, I've had many situations where I've called or stopped in at fly shops to ask what's going on, and how to make the most. Oftentimes, I get less than enthusiastic answers or defeatist attitudes.
And it's important to remember that the guys in your local shop [00:40:30] can pick their days oftentimes, especially if they're in a fishing-centric area. A lot of people who live in the particular area that you're going to fish can choose which days they fish on better than you can. They will oftentimes have a little bit less rosy outlook on poor conditions. The reality is, take that with a grain of salt. I have a quick anecdote about that. I went [00:41:00] to the Driftless region and stopped in a shop on my way in. And the main river and all the tributaries in the area were completely flooded. I'm talking chocolate milk water, out of its banks across the region. I had driven all the way from Michigan about a, I don't know, a seven, eight-hour drive. I had made reservations, so I couldn't [00:41:30] just go back. And someone in the shop basically told me, "There's no point in fishing. Everything's blown out. There's no reason to even go out there. You might as well just go home." I thought about in Michigan, what we do when we have high water is just get the biggest, heaviest, darkest streamer that we can get our hands on and strip it around. I did that [00:42:00] in some of these little Driftless streams and had one of the best weeks of fishing I've ever had. There were a fish coming out of the woodwork. You could crush the stream. It was unbelievable. So that's just proof that you can do things a little differently. And a lot of people who have the ability or the time to choose their days might not see adverse conditions as worth fishing, but it's always worth a try. [00:42:30] That's first point.
Tom R.: I have a similar anecdote, which will give people hope. I live on a little trout stream, as a lot of people know. There was a biologist who had worked for the state, and he had done some survey work on my property. Then he left the state, and he came back one day. He was visiting, and he knocked on the door and asked if he could fish in the back. The river was totally blown out. I said, "Sure, [00:43:00] Rory. If you want to go out there, you're welcome to. I don't think it's going to be very good." I wouldn't have fished it. He came back to the house a couple hours later and showed me pictures of these beautiful brown trout that he caught in that high water. And of course, I really interrogated him to find out what he was doing. You live on a trout stream or you fish it every day, and [00:43:30] people will come and do things that they're not supposed to do or you don't think will work, and they have a great day. So, I totally agree.
James: That's another point that I'm going to come back to as well. Remind me at the end to talk about that, things that you're not supposed to do or that aren't supposed to work. I was going to end with that. That's great. The overarching [00:44:00] theme beyond don't give up, is that, you want to think like a fish and think how a fish would deal with the conditions, just like how you would deal with similar conditions. They have to eat, they don't want to work very hard. A fish has to survive. A fish doesn't want to over extend itself. They don't want to work too hard. And they still need [00:44:30] all the same things that they ever need: oxygen, prey species to eat. And then, obviously, some safety, some hiding holes, whatever. If you imagine that the fish has an environment that's briefly changed, but it still needs those things, you can see why, for example, in a high-water situation, the fish isn't going to want to be in the main torrential [00:45:00] channel of a river. They're gonna move to the outside because it's not as heavy a flow of water. And the water won't be quite as filled with junk on the margins.
And because it's cloudy, the water is cloudy, perhaps, they can find some safety even in shallow water. So, again, it's thinking like how a fish would react to a change in its environment. And it's not too hard when you [00:45:30] realize that fish needs some really basic things. So, think like a fish, and imagine that they're not happy, but they still have to eat. And so that's one important thing. Another one, my third point here is, there are a lot of situations where I try to think of a way to not give a fish a choice to eat. Give them something that they can't [00:46:00] pass up, the fly bumps in front of them, it would be so easy to eat it that they just can't refuse it. And that is a pretty important thing that I do when I am faced with these situations. I should mention, I do travel a good deal around the states, and occasionally out of the states to fish. Both do-it-yourself [00:46:30] type trips as well as guided trips. And I rarely get good conditions. I've had opportunity to test all these theories in both fresh and salt water because I do both. Be okay with variety, is another thing. In other words, adjust your expectations and be okay with that. So, one anecdotal thing. I was in Hawaii, and as you do when you're in Hawaii, you're hoping for those [00:47:00] really big bonefish that they get out there. The bonefish get giant out in Hawaii, but the conditions were just awful for that when I was out there. But I had a great week on funky endemic reef species that were available and would eat flies. And no, I didn't catch one of the giant bones, but I was able to pivot and catch some really cool fish that I had to look up that I didn't even know existed. [00:47:30] And that was cool that I got an opportunity to add a new species to my list of species caught on the fly. So, be willing to change from your intended target.
If you go just for one particular fish, there's a chance you might get disappointed. Whereas if you're okay with any interesting fish or large fish or whatever it may be, you'll be able to salvage some trips. [00:48:00] And then finally, the fifth point of overarching ways to solve these poor conditions problem would be bringing some backup fly and fly line options. I've been in situations where redfish were really surly and they were just sticking in the channels, not so much feeding on flats, for example. And having an intermediate line or a [00:48:30] sink tip to get smaller flies down to them as they're just sitting in the channel eating things flushed out of the marsh, saved a trip for me. So, one of us might go to the salt with just floating lines because we think flats, flats, flats.
But if the conditions aren't good for flats, you want to be able to get into deep water in some cases and things like that. So, we'll kind of go over at the end gear [00:49:00] tips that I have. But those kind of five points, don't lose hope, thinking like a fish and what fish need. Trying not to give fish an opportunity to refuse a fly, if possible. Being okay with variety and adjusting your expectations. And then bringing some flies or fly line systems that you might not have otherwise packed, just in case, are the five major points that I'd like to say generally about [00:49:30] solving the problem of poor conditions.
Tom R.: Those are great tips. I can't tell you the number of times I've been on a trip where a guide will say, "You got a sinking line with you.?" Like tarping in a channel where I'm on a bonefish trip, but there's tarpon in a deep channel, and I say, "Oh, damn, no, I left to home."
James: Same here. There have been so many situations like that. And we'll talk as we go through about more specific things [00:50:00] to bring based on what you might run into in poor conditions.
Tom R.: Great point.
James: So, I wanna talk about a couple different poor conditions, but I think the first one we should talk about is high water, or flooding or really high and dirty water. So, that can happen from a storm, that can happen from snow melt, that can happen from a lot of different things. But when you have a lot of extra [00:50:30] water in the system, that not only adjusts where your banks are, where your cover is, it also can move things through the system. So, your flush of water will make the water dirty as it disturbs silt and bottom and food. So, like I said, when I went to the Driftless, I had a situation where it was just all-time high water in fact.
And the [00:51:00] visibility went from very clear as it can be in that region to 3 inches of visibility in groundwater. And so, what do you do in that situation? And I've fished in that situation in a variety of different places, snow melt out West to after a big rainstorm in the Smoky Mountains. So, it happens with some frequency. [00:51:30] So, a couple of points on that. So, you get to a place and you got high water, dirty water. So, first thing is put on a fly that gets the fish's attention. So, that can come in a lot of different forms, but I like flies that are darker because they're providing a big silhouette or really bright charters, yellows, oranges, things like that, larger than you'd normally fish. A larger fly than you might otherwise [00:52:00] be casting.
So, if you're normally fishing a 2-inch streamer, let's say, I can put a 4-inch streamer on in this case, as an example. I like a little bit more flash in my streamers in that case. Again, anything to get that fish's attention. And I'm not afraid in that situation of casting that fly a little harder to make it make a plop sound. If the fish are feeding by feel and by hearing, [00:52:30] if I make a little bit more violent entry into the water with my fly, oftentimes that will turn a fish in dirty water situations that would spook a fish in clear water situations.
So, I'm trying to get their attention. Here in Michigan, we do a lot of the mouse fishing. And mouse fishing is all about the plot, at least initially is to get that fish's attention with a big smack on the water. [00:53:00] And that works during high-water situations too. So, start by fishing flies. Let's say you're fishing dry flies, and you would normally say fish an Adams in a size 16 in this section of river, you might want to, in a high-water situation, fish a patriot, which has some flash on it in like a size 12. Just something bigger, something flashier and see what happens. Plop-wise, [00:53:30] again, I like a big hopper, for example, just something to get the fish's attention.
And then fishing the margins as we discussed before a little bit, you want to fish the outsides of the stream because the fish don't want to be in that heavy flow in the middle of the river anyway. So, they're going to move out of their normal spots when that heavy water comes [00:54:00] through. So, it's a little clearer, little bit better for breathing, for sight, but also less work for them. So, I will look for fish in unusual places even up on grass lawns sometimes. If a river's really flooded, they want to get out of the main current just like you do. So, don't assume that you have to put on the heaviest fly you've got and get to all the way to the bottom in the middle of the river. The fish don't want to be there either. [00:54:30] So, that's one big thing is to look for fish on the margins, on the edges in the softer water anywhere where they can get a break from that flooding. So, that's an important thing to realize when you're fishing high water.
Tom R.: One thing James, you didn't mention was the fly design, the stimulation of fish's ladder line, vibrations in the water. [00:55:00] Do you pick something with a deer hair head or a lot of palmered hackle that sets up some vibrations in the water?
James: Absolutely. Yeah. Something that pushes water, as we say. I'm gonna hit that in a couple fly recommendations. The drunken disorderly is a very common one, or D&D as it's called. And that fly has a wedge head that jams under the water and really [00:55:30] moves in a way that the fish can feel that fly has a rattle in it too, which doesn't hurt. And I like a fly that pushes a lot of water. And then the final thing that I wanna say, other than if you're fishing those conditions really weighed safely, have a wading staff, perhaps even have a PFD, a personal flotation device, not a bad idea these [00:56:00] high water heavy flow situations.
But you also wanna think in the way that a fish is thinking in terms of what they're gonna see. So, imagine that you are in a river where there's a lot more cubic feet per second flowing through, that's gonna dislodge things. And just like it churns up silt and detritus matter at the bottom of the river, that's gonna also flush out things that might normally [00:56:30] not get flushed out. So, larger nymphs that have more power to grab onto things, worms. So, the fish are gonna have an opportunity to eat things that don't eat every single day when the river churns them out of their hiding spots.
So, think larger nymphs both for visibility and availability, think worms. A lot of the time, I've had some great days on fishing worm flies in heavy flooded conditions. So, [00:57:00] in terms of, let's say salt water even, you're fishing small shrimp and crabs that get flushed out of the marsh systems or off the flats if you've got a bunch of water coming in there and pushing small critters out. So, make sure to have flies that imitate what you might see if they get dislodged. So, that's kind of [00:57:30] the high-water thing. So, get attention with the flies or imitate something that is gonna get flushed out in a flood. So, worms and big nymphs. And then fish the margins where the fish are gonna try to get out of that main current, which is stronger than they're used to. And then weight safely.
So, what about the sort of the opposite? So, low water, when you've got really low, really clear water. This one is a little bit easier to figure out, [00:58:00] but lighten your tippet a lot. Tippet is stronger than you think a lot of the time. So, a lot of people are afraid to put on something like 6X or 7X, and sometimes you just have to do that. Smaller flies, dull flies by the same token, the opposite of high water is goes something small. Go with something with less flash on it. And then really take a [00:58:30] stealthy approach seriously. In really low water situations, I'm not above wearing some camo. I'm not above moving way slower than I think I should. And it'll really pay dividends.
The advantage to low water, even though it can seem like a really tough thing, the advantage to low water is you can see where the fish are generally, and that will make things a little bit easier for you if you approach from behind or in other words, [00:59:00] against the current. If you're fishing for trout, fish a lighter tippet, fish a smaller fly, and you'll be successful.
Tom R.: I just learned a trick. I just got back from a trip in Spain, fishing the Pyrenees, and I was fishing a small stream with a guide one day. And typically, my nymphs, I use black beads because I don't like too much flash on my nymphs, but I was fishing this... [00:59:30] Was it a Duracell, which has a silver bead in it. It was working fairly well. But the guide said, "I think it's a little too flashy." And he took out a black Sharpie, and he colored the bead. He just took the Sharpie and coated the bead with black to cut down the flash on the bead. And that worked pretty well. I had never seen that done before. I'm sure people do it, but it was new to me, [01:00:00] and it's an idea. I'm gonna take some Sharpies with me from now on.
James: Absolutely. I have not heard that before either, and I love that idea. I carry a pair of scissors with me to cut flash out of streamers if they're too bright. That's mostly from being... I lived in out East for a while and fished a lot of stripers and stripers can get really particular about how much flash is in a fly, in my experience. [01:00:30] So, I always have scissors to cut, flash out of flies, but the Sharpie is a great idea.
Tom R.: Yeah.
James: So, then let's talk about a couple other things. Let's do cold front next, because this one tends to be more of a saltwater issue. It can cause difficult fishing in fresh water, but in salt water especially, those fish get really surly. So, again we're gonna [01:01:00] go back to that thinking like a fish type deal. And thinking like a fish, the cold front makes, obviously not only the water colder, but there are issues with pressure that the fish don't like as well. So, the fish are surly, they're gonna gravitate more to the bottom. They're not gonna really want to eat very well. So, you've gotta kind of change your attitude. I had a trip in Texas in Galveston two years ago that we just [01:01:30] got the worst cold front for the few days I was gonna be there. And we had to really pivot into how we targeted reds and sea drought and flounder.
And what happened is we figured out that you've got to meet the fish where they are and go low and slow. So, the big thing with the cold front, especially in salt water, is go low and slow. The fish aren't happy. So, you want to meet them where they are by getting a fly to the bottom and moving [01:02:00] it very slowly. So, they're usually gonna have their bellies close to the bottom, and they don't want to eat, but if something comes in front of them, they kind of have to eat it. And that's part of that, not really giving the fish a choice, make them eat by giving them something they can't refuse.
So, with cold front, I like flies that are really heavy. Flies that have a big tungsten bead or dumbbell [01:02:30] eyes that can hop along the bottom, kind of like we'd a crayfish. And hop them along really slowly so that you might have much longer pauses between strips when you're moving that fly. And for that reason, I like flies that have a lot of rubber legs or a lot of movement at rest. Any fly that can wiggle a lot just in the micro currents of the water as it's sitting still. And that can oftentimes convert a fish [01:03:00] that is just forced to stare at this fly for five seconds. So, that is one thing.
I always have a heavy, heavy fly with a lot of natural movement even when the fly isn't being stripped, isn't being retrieved, so that you can just plop it in front of a fish and make them look at it for as long as possible. Even if you can't see the fish, you can imagine that they that you're giving them a chance to just stare at it. [01:03:30] Make sure your weight is on the fly, not the fly line. So, sinking lines, you kind of are forced to retrieve them a little faster because, otherwise, they'll land on the bottom. So, you want the control of a floating line and a heavy fly. That'll help you control the speed of your retrieve. Sinking lines don't give you that option. I'm a big fan of a just generally [01:04:00] fishing along the bottom with a floating line and a long leader.
Tom R.: Long leader. Yeah.
James: You put a streamer on a long leader, but you have so much more control of the speed that you can retrieve it.
Tom R.: How about cold-fronted freshwater because I don't know about you, but I find that... Fish are cold-blooded and I find that trout and especially bass during a cold front can be [01:04:30] extremely difficult after a cold front passes through. Do you have any tricks for fresh water?
James: Yeah. Actually, it's kind of the same. Let's see. I was on Michigan's Au Sable River, and we had a nasty front come in. And the fish were really kind of locked jawed, and it was the same kind of thing. I put on a Simi Seal Leech with a heavy jig and just bounced [01:05:00] it along the bottom of the holes. And they just got in front of the fish and they couldn't refuse it. It was just so easy for a meal that they just wouldn't refuse it. Bass is an interesting thing. So, I love bass fishing on a fly. When they get really lock-jawed, when they get really sort of cagey, I have a floating line and a long leader, and I put on a fly that's somewhat like, or is [01:05:30] a tarpon fly.
So, no weight or little weight and a lot of natural movement. And I just twitch it and leave it. Especially for large-mouth bass, I am willing to let them stare at that fly for a minute or two. I might make a cast or retrieve, rather, the last two minutes or three minutes. And again, you have to be more patient in that situation, of course. [01:06:00] But I have had a lot of luck just really slowing things down. I may put a fly down low near the bottom for a small mouth, but for a large mouth in a nasty cold front condition, I will just try to tread the middle of the water column to provide them with the silhouette against the sky, but with something that does not sink [01:06:30] vast and has a ton of natural movement. So, it's not too different than the salt water.
Tom R.: Yeah.
James: And then again, I'm gonna mention this briefly. Don't be afraid of rattles in your fly. Some people might consider that cheating, but with the fly rattles are really nice to have. And I always bring a couple flies with a rattle in them just in case that'll convert a fish that [01:07:00] might not otherwise want to eat. Have that little snapping sound can make it seem just a little bit more like food in some cases. But again, the big thing with the cold front is get it in front of them and make them look at it, make them realize that it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to get the easiest meal of their life. And that tends to convert really well for me.
The other thing is [01:07:30] find good, good, good water in a cold front. So, find the best cover, the most fishy-looking spot that you can find. Whereas in good conditions, the fish may move around, might move into feeding lanes, might kind of be in different places, in the cold front, only fish in the most fishy likely-looking places. [01:08:00] Have your target area, check all the boxes of what the fish want, food, oxygen protection, depth, temperature, water temperature. Just make sure that all those factors are ideal for the fish, because likely they're concentrated in that area because they're not happy.
Tom R.: And so, goes without saying that you wanna move around a lot, you wanna skim the cream off the top. [01:08:30]
James: Exactly. Precisely. Move around, and find the primo spots if you can. Because those will concentrate the fish when they're unhappy. Warm water. So, we get out West, the water is warm from long hot days, and what do we do in really warm water situations? So, there are kind of well-established ways to deal with this. [01:09:00] And the big phrase is, go up. So, that might be go up in elevation where it's cooler, or go up in the river system towards the headwaters. Especially if it's a spring-fed river where most of your springs are closer to the headwaters. That depends very much on the hydrology. So, that's not always true. But generally, you go up into the headwater systems or up into the higher elevations, [01:09:30] and that will provide cooler water or cool temps.
So, that's the number one thing. If you get to Montana and the rivers have just gotten too hot in the summer, you're gonna go for some hiking. You're gonna do some hiking, and you're gonna go as up as you can. And then another hiking option, if you're dealing with warm water, is going to fish lakes instead of rivers. So, oftentimes fish [01:10:00] can feel a little bit more thermal refuge in certain, like spring-fed lakes. And you can always kind of go to high mountain alpine lakes instead of low rivers.
Tom R.: And often the high mountain lakes, the alpine lakes, don't even get good until the weather gets hot down below because the water is just too cold much of the year for active fish.
James: Right. And so that's always an option. [01:10:30] If you're dealing with warm water, be willing to hike a little bit, to travel a little bit outside the primo stretches of river that are accessible and famous and go up and do some small stream fishing. There's nothing cooler than catching an unexpectedly big fish out of a small stream. And this is a great opportunity to do it. If you put yourself a little bit outta your comfort zone [01:11:00] and fish in small streams or the headwaters of a particular river system. And then, I think everyone should learn how to stillwater trout fishing in lakes because it's so different. It's so entertaining and it's so filled with learning and problem-solving and all sorts of stuff. I love stillwater fishing. So, it's a great opportunity to learn that if you're forced to with Hoot-owl restrictions out West or something like that. [01:11:30]
So, those are kind of the situations where the fish are having some difficulty. So, in high water, they have to move or are having trouble breathing. In low water, the same issue. They're probably having trouble surviving. They have to be careful about not being visible to predators, etc. Cold front, they feel pressure, they feel cold with [01:12:00] their blood. And warm water, they're stressed. So, these are all things that the fish are kind of finicky. But there are also some conditions that are just bad for the angler, like high wind is kind of the biggest one. So, you get somewhere and you have to deal with this nasty high wind. And I've had that happen. We've all had that happen many times.
So, I just want to talk a little bit about sort of bad weather fishing. [01:12:30] Some fish like bad weather. Some fish are totally fine with a storm, in my opinion. It depends on the strength of the storm, of course, but I've had some really, really nasty storm fishing for a striped bass, and they've just loved it. They've just been all over it. So, it just depends on the fish. But high wind situations are tough because we're fly casters and we're casting a fly line through the air, and wind is [01:13:00] generally kind of our enemy. So, what do you do in high wind situations when you get there? So, first, always bring, I think, if you can, if you have the room to pack it, always bring a little bit heavier rod, than you think you might need.
I was on a trip to... Let's see, this would've been Massachusetts, and I really like fishing for smaller schoolie stripers with a 7-weight. These days, 7-weights are kind of pretty strong and pretty capable [01:13:30] in the way that 8-weights used to be. And I think that I love to fish when I can with a lighter rod, but I had brought a 10-weight, and thank goodness I did, because the wind was just howling 20 to 30 miles per hour the entire time I was there. And if I hadn't had that 10-weight, I probably wouldn't have been anywhere near as successful. So, the heavier the rod, generally, the easier it is to cast him to the wind. And so, [01:14:00] I really recommend bringing a heavier rod than you might think you need just in case you get a lot of wind.
So, if you were normally gonna fish a 5-weight on a trout trip, you might wanna toss a 6-weight or a 7-weight as a backup into your kit if you've got the room for it. I know depending on your luggage and how you're flying and your carry-on restrictions and so on, you might not have room for it.
Tom R.: And your budget.
James: Exactly. Correct. Exactly. [01:14:30] So, but anyway, it's a good thing to have. I quick plug here. I know Orvis makes a 6-Piece 8-weight, and that thing goes everywhere with me just because you just never know. And even on a trout trip, I've got that 6-Piece 8-weight with me. It's easy to pack and convenient. So, bring a little bit heavier rod than you might think you need, if you can. But if not, [01:15:00] there are other ways to kind of fix or deal with the high wind problem. Shortening your leaders will make it easier to cast so long as you can. Shortening leaders might seem like you might spook a fish by having too short a leader, but if you're fishing water in really windy situations, the water's very pixelated, as [01:15:30] my buddy likes to say.
Tom R.: Pixelated.
James: It ripples on it from the wind. So, the fish aren't gonna be quite as cagey about short leaders as they would be in cold water. So, you've got that double benefit of being the leader will be hidden pretty well by the chop if you have to shorten it, in my experience. My experience is not all-encompassing. So, [01:16:00] you'll probably find examples where some of this isn't true, but in my experience of casting in terrible conditions, a shorter leader is oftentimes okay in high wind, really okay with the streamer, of course. I really recommend learning the Oval or Belgian cast. So, that's a particular cast that keeps the fly a little further away from your head, and it's meant for large or wind-resistant [01:16:30] or heavy flies. But it's got an advantage on windy days, where you are less likely to be whacked in the back of the head with your fly. So, I won't really go into how to make that cast, but I'm sure folks can look it up. I'm sure it's on the Orvis Learning Center.
Tom R.: It is, yeah. Pete's doing it on the Orvis Learning Center as we speak. It's there.
James: It's there. So, it is a really convenient cast, [01:17:00] especially in high winds. And on casting, I'll also say, sidearm casting can be really important in high wind situations because you're effectively cutting under the wind. The higher you go off the surface of the water, the more in the wind you are. So, if you're able to do a sidearm back cast, or in some cases, a sidearm forward cast, you can cut under the wind in certain [01:17:30] situations. And I won't go too in-depth with that, but as anglers are out there, they can kind of figure out that if you've got the wind that you're dealing with is just above the water, if you can cut that line just a little bit under the wind, you'll be surprised at how useful that is.
The other thing that I've kind of mentioned with casting into the wind [01:18:00] is sort of an attitude thing. And I'll tell you what I mean. So, we think of, we want our fly cast to go forward and casting directly into the wind is really difficult, and we're kind of intimidated by that wind coming into our face because we know it's gonna hamper our cast. But we gotta remember that when we're casting, our back cast is essential to put energy into our rod, to load up our rod. [01:18:30] So, when you think about casting into a headwind, wind coming at your face, just change your attitude to think, "Well, I've got the most efficient back cast I'm ever gonna have. So, I'm loading that rod as best as I'm ever gonna load it."
And all I've found that with that slight attitude change, you know you've prepped well with a good back cast [01:19:00] and it's gonna give you confidence for a forward cast. Your back cast is just as important as your forward cast. So, think about casting directly into the wind. The back cast is gonna get all the power, and that's good because that back cast provides a good forward cast.
Tom R.: Yeah. I tell people this all the time. There's no substitute for good casting form. It works well without wind, and it works well with the wind. [01:19:30] So, there aren't any real tricks other than to have a really good form in your cast. It's gonna work.
James: And I tell people, a lot of people understand that the hauling, either the single haul or double haul was an important tool to be able to cast into the wind. A lot of people will want to learn how to haul. But to your point, you can't learn how to haul until you have a good, efficient [01:20:00] cast without a haul.
Tom R.: Exactly.
James: You gotta learn the fundamentals really well. And so, oftentimes when I'm teaching people to haul at our store in a class or a private lesson or what have you, we go back to basics. We dismantle everything and go from the ground up, because a really good regular cast, we'll make hauling a lot easier to learn and a lot better, a lot more useful. [01:20:30]
Tom R.: Yeah. It's essential.
James: And then the other thing with high wind that I'll just mention is make every cast count for a variety of reasons. If you are really struggling to make a cast, don't recast if it doesn't land exactly where you want because you are working really hard to get that fly line out there. If it doesn't land very well, fish it anyway. Fish that cast anyway. Don't [01:21:00] give up the opportunity that you work so hard to make, even if it didn't land perfectly straight. If you've got some coils in the line, the fish oftentimes in high wind, if they're on the feed, can be pretty darn forgiving, especially like I said, with the wind rippling the water surface, they can be pretty forgiving of a bad cast. Even on a tough day, they can be pretty forgiving [01:21:30] of a bad cast. So, when you're fishing in a high wind situation, really, really commit to fishing every cast like there's a fish right behind it.
Tom R.: And limit your false casting. It's gonna do nothing but get you into trouble.
James: I'd argue, everyone should false cast a little less. I've seen so many people have the perfect cast on their second false cast, and then just keep going. [01:22:00] So, limit your false casting as much as possible, especially with these contemporary rods. These contemporary casting tools are really a one-and-done for a back cast and forward cast. So, use the tool.
Tom R.: And the fly lines shoot better these days too, so you don't need to false cast as much.
James: So, those are the big ones that I wanted to discuss. The other thing I'll just say kind of at the end here is, [01:22:30] you had mentioned kind of doing something that shouldn't work. That everyone will tell you wouldn't work. You come into a fly shop in the Midwest here and you ask about mouse fishing and you're never gonna hear, at least I've never heard. Well, you could mouse fish in the day too. Everyone's like, "mousing is night, night, night." When the chips [01:23:00] are down, you kind of have to try something wild, why not try a mouse in the middle of the day?
You can't say for sure that it won't work. A great example of this. I float in the winter a lot. I love winter fly fishing out here in Michigan. And that's really nymphing and occasionally streamer fishing. And my buddy was with me and he really likes to be able to see [01:23:30] his fly. And in the winter when you're fishing complicated nymph rigs or dark colored streamers, you're not really fishing visible or easily visible flies, around here at least. And he just put on a pink katydid pattern, a big pink grasshopper pattern, and a fish came up and whacked at it, in the middle of the winter. They hadn't seen a grasshopper in six months. So, you never really know.
Tom R.: No, you don't.
James: I'm a big fan [01:24:00] of, so long as it won't damage the fish, big fan of trying a saltwater fly. When I say damage the fish, oftentimes you're talking really big hooks, big barbs, stuff like that. So, I'm not gonna puncture a trout with a big old saltwater hook if I can prevent it. But in any case, always be willing to try something off the wall that someone will say doesn't work, especially when [01:24:30] the conditions are tough, that can pay big dividends. Sometimes it's as much as a fish on the Au Sable doesn't normally see a Crazy Charlie. And so, there's no point in fishing the flies that everybody fishes. They've seen a zillion of these particular dry flies. They've seen a zillion woolly buggers, but they've probably never seen a Crazy Charlie So, it's always [01:25:00] worth trying something wild, something off the wall.
Tom R.: You got nothing to lose, right?
James: That's right.
Tom R.: Nothing else is working, you might as well try something weird.
James: And it's truly amazing how often that can work in your favor. And this is a great segue to kind of my final piece here, which is, what flies to bring, to always have just in case. And I've got a few.
Tom R.: Okay, good. People love that.
James: I love flies [01:25:30] and fly patterns, and so I have some recommendations on what I like to always have with me, just in case.
Tom R.: Get your pencils out, people. Write these down.
James: Oh, yeah. So, Clouser Minnow, especially a darker colored one, like an all-Black Clouser Minnow, you should always have it. That has saved so many trips for me. It's crazy how many trips the all Black Clouser Minnow has saved. [01:26:00] It's just a fly that works. I really like also having a heavy Woolly Bugger. So, Woolly Bugger with a ton of weight, be like a tungsten jig head, or if you can get a dumbbell eye Woolly Bugger. That is a great thing to have with you. That's one of those things that I kind of have in every single fly box, just in case. A red, [01:26:30] like size 18, not tiny, but not big, a size 16 or 18 red midge larvae which could look like a small worm or it could look like [01:26:45] * midge larvae. A little red midge larvae, again, that's converted some really lock jaw fish, especially in cold front freshwater situations. They [01:27:00] just can't refuse it for whatever reason.
We talked about the D&D, the big articulated streamer, that has pretty much everything to drive a fish nuts, so flash and a rattle and a sculpted head of deer hair. If that doesn't get a fish's attention, nothing will. So, D&D, the big size or the mini, I like to have one or two of those with me. [01:27:30] Believe it or not, caught some nice muskie on Drunken and Disorderly, which is a trout fly. So, you never really know. One of my sort of deal closers, especially in bad conditions, is a small, what I call a crimp or like a crab shrimp hybrid, but a small one, like a size, I don't know, 8. [01:28:00] Like a crab shrimp hybrid fly. A crimp is one of them. A Kwan, K-W-A-N, is another example of a sort of a half shrimp, half crab. Have a small one available. That saved my bacon many a time.
And then you can never go wrong with a soft hackle hare's ear with a bead on it, like a gold bead soft hackle hare's ear. Because that can be swung, that can be dead drifted. It can be stripped like a tiny streamer. [01:28:30] You can do almost anything with that little fly. It's a great carp fly too. The soft hackle hare's ear is a great carp fly if needed. And so, those flies in particular, I always kind of have with me just in case. Another one that I'll add here, because it's one of the most universal fly patterns that can kind of look like absolutely anything is [01:29:00] a jig head Pat's Rubber Legs. If you have a jig head Pat's Rubber Legs, that's a stonefly nymph. That's a shrimp, that's a crab. That's a crayfish. It's in anything.
And if it's heavy and it's got that chenille and rubber legs, you're in great shape. So, those flies in particular. The Clouser Minnow, especially in dark colors, very heavy Wooly Bugger, D&D, [01:29:30] tiny shrimp crab hybrid, like a kwan or a shrimp. And a bead head, soft hackle hare's ear, and then a nice little Pat's Rubber Legs. I always have those in kind of every fly box I take with me, fresher, salt, river, or lake, just in case.
Tom R.: I'm gonna add those to my list because a couple of those wouldn't have been on my list, but they're gonna be on my list now.
James: What are some of yours, Tom? [01:30:00] What do you like if nothing else is working and you need to convert a lock-jawed fish.
Tom R.: Well, a Chubby Chernobyl or similar, big foam dry, definitely a black Wooly Bugger and often unweighted because sometimes in a lake or a spring creek. Let see. What else would I carry? Acrylics or if I need something really bright [01:30:30] acrylics or sparkle minnow or something like that.
James: A sparkle minnow, those are great. I love a Kreelex line. I love a sparkle minnow. A sparkle minnow works in situations here where it shouldn't. You think about fish being pretty picky and pretty cautious in really low, clear water. But around here, you put on a sparkle minnow in the lowest, clearest water on a bright sunny day [01:31:00] when streamer fishing in general seems like a futile effort, they'll chase a sparkle minnow. It's crazy.
Tom R.: So, those would be my... I guess Griffith's Gnat probably. If I'm trout fishing, I gotta always have a Griffith's Gnat, and of course, Parachute Adams. Everybody has those.
James: Sure. Well, cool. I think that's about it for my tips.
Tom R.: Well, those are great tips and I learned a lot [01:31:30] and I'm sure that other people have learned a ton from this talk. And I'd urge people, I know you got a list of flies and you think the fly's the answer, but listen carefully to what James said about presentation and techniques because it's every bit as important or probably more important than the fly you got on the end. So, make sure that you go back and listen to that [01:32:00] as well.
James: Yeah. Presentation is kind of everything, and especially when those fish are more concerned with surviving than they are with eating. So, that presentation is key. In bad conditions, they're not happy either. So, you gotta think like, if you're unhappy, what would make you happy if someone handed your favorite comfort food and brought it right to you. [01:32:30] That's how to think about fishing in poor conditions.
Tom R.: All right, James, well thank you so much. I know it's gonna be a popular podcast.
James: Thank you for the opportunity. I hope folks learned something.
Tom R.: I know they did. And we've been talking to James Spica, fishing manager of the Royal Oak Store in Michigan. So, make sure you stop in and say hi to James if you're in the area. And also, [01:33:00] editor and writer for "Tail Magazine." So, thank you, James.
James: Thanks again, Tom.
Tom R.: All right. Talk to you soon.
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show, have a question or a comment. Send it to us at