Fly Fishing for Steelhead and Salmon in Estuaries, with Reed Teuscher

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Tom: Hi, and welcome to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast". This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And my guest this week is Reed Teuscher. Reed is a member of the Orvis Outfitter team. He is one of the people who answers [00:00:30.059] either your email or your telephone questions, or sometimes, your chat questions when you have technical questions about fishing products, or he can just answer questions about fishing in general. And we'll talk about that program as we get into the podcast and I talk to Reed.
But the topic this week is estuary and saltwater fishing for salmon and steelhead. Something that [00:01:00.880] there isn't a lot of stuff out there about, there is some, but it's a topic that needs to be aired a little bit more. And Reed talks about how to intercept in the estuaries of the West Coast and how to catch them and what flies to use. Of course, he's going to give us some great flies. And so, if you live on the West Coast or if [00:01:30.120] you're there visiting, I think this will be a valuable podcast for you. And even if you don't live on the West Coast and you have some lake run salmon and steelhead that are maybe going into streams in the Great Lakes, freshwater, landlocked, steelhead, and Pacific salmon, you may also pick up some tips for chasing these fish.
And before we get into the Fly Box, just a couple announcements [00:02:00.159] this week. I still have spaces on my hosted trip to the Bahamas in April, both to Swains Key and H2O Bonefishing, and I also have spaces for my trip to Iceland next July. All of my Argentina and Chile trips this winter are full. So, if you're ever interested in going to South America with me, I advise you to get on it quickly [00:02:30.360] as soon as you hear them announced. I love doing these trips. I love I love meeting new people and I really enjoy hosting trips. It's one of the great pleasures of my job, and I hope to meet some of you on a future trip. Of course, there are lots of trips available through the Orvis Adventures program, both international trips and recommendations for lodges, [00:03:00.580] outfitters, and guides domestically. So, if you're interested in going on a vetted trip, a trip that we inspect and we regularly check in on and we approve as, you know, the best possible fishing trip for our customers, then the Orvis website is the best place to go.
All right, let's do the Fly Box. And the Fly Box [00:03:30.219] is where you ask me questions or you share a tip, and then I try to answer your questions if I can, give you my opinion sometimes, or share your tip if I feel it's worthwhile sharing on the podcast for other people. You can send your questions to my email box at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. and you can either attach a voice file or you can just type your question into your email. I haven't gotten a lot of phone calls [00:04:00.219] lately, and you'll notice I only have one this week, so phone calls are appreciated. I always like to hear your voice. And I listen to all of them and I read all of them. I don't answer all of them, but I do read them all.
And the first question this week is from anonymous who didn't even want me to share his first name on the podcast, and that's fine if you don't want me to. "Hi, Tom. Two quick and unrelated questions for you. One, twisted tippet and Euro nymphing. I've been Euro nymphing on my [00:04:30.100] local rivers here in western Colorado for about six to seven years now and I really enjoy it. My only complaint is how my tag inevitably twists around the running length of my tippet.
Here's my setup. From my cider, I run a 5 to 6-foot straight piece of 4X to 6X Fluoro. About 20-inches above my point fly, I tie in a 12 to 18-inch tag using a triple surgeon's knot. It fishes great for the first half hour or so, but as I keep casting, the tag starts wrapping [00:05:00.120] around the main line in a tight spiral. It's not a tangle or a wind knot, just a stubborn twist with memory. Even if I straighten it with my fingers, like you do with a coiled tapered leader, it quickly rewraps itself. It's not a huge problem, but I found myself spending a lot of time untwisting tippet instead of fishing. Any idea what's causing this? Have you run into it yourself while Euro nymphing? And do you have any tricks to prevent it?
Number two, banned flies, fact or folklore. I was listening to one of your 2024 [00:05:30.379] podcasts about the influences European fly tying traditions on American tying, and your guest mentioned a worm pattern that was so effective it got banned. Over the years, I've heard scattered references to banned flies, usually with a healthy dose of skepticism. Personally, I've always felt that fly pattern is just one part of the equation, presentation, water conditions, weather, and timing all play huge roles in whether you catch a fish or not. So, I'm curious, are there really patterns that have been banned for being too effective either due to [00:06:00.180] catch rates or ecological concerns? Are these bans limited to competition angling, or do they extend to entire river systems? And what's the story behind the worm fly? Are there other examples worth sharing?"
Well, anonymous, in response to your first question, I think your problem is that your upper tag is too long. If you have too long of a tag on your dropper, there's no way you're going to prevent that thing [00:06:30.139] from wrapping around your main line. So, there's a couple ways you can lessen this problem. It's always going to happen, but you can lessen it. One is you need to use a shorter dropper. I would say, somewhere around 4 to 8-inches long, roughly, depending on how stiff your tippet is, whether you're using 4X or 6X. You can get away with a little longer tag on your [00:07:00.139] 4X, but when you're using 6X, you're going to have to keep it fairly short.
The other option is, or the other thing that you can do is to try not to use a fly that's too air-resistant on that dropper. So, something that doesn't have a lot of bulk, a smaller fly, perhaps an unweighted fly, is probably going to be less likely to wrap around that main line. Now, I know [00:07:30.060] that by using that short dropper, you have to, eventually, get to the part you can't tie another fly on when you switch flies, and that is a problem. I try to make my tags longer, but I find that when I make them longer, I end up with a twist like you have.
So, there's a solution to that. Once you re-tie a couple flies and that tag gets too short, just cut it off and tie a knot around [00:08:00.040] your main line above the last piece of tippet material, in other words where your fly is tied, but you'll have a knot there. You'll have a knot left there because you tied a triple surgeon's. Just wrap a piece of tippet around that main line and tie a simple 5 or 6 turn clinch knot around the tippet, and then tighten it and slide it down onto that knot so that [00:08:30.259] you get more droppers as you go through the day. The other option of course is to use a tippet ring, and then you don't have to even worry about tying around the leader itself. You can just use a tippet ring for that. So, either way, keep that dropper shorter and you're going to be in better shape.
Regarding banned flies, there are certain rules [00:09:00.379] in the competition angling such as, you can't use articulated flies, and you can't use a bead larger than 4-millimeters in diameter for your flies. But that's for competition angling. And I think at one point, they may have banned squirmy worms. But I talked to Jesse Haller who is on the Orvis staff and is involved in the competition. He says [00:09:30.059] he doesn't think squirmy's have been banned anymore. And I looked that up and it doesn't look like they are.
But there are other instances of banned flies. For instance, the one that I know of that's fairly commonly known in the competition is that, in the Missouri trout parks where they heavily stock, mop flies and squirmy's are banned. You can't use them. [00:10:01.419] Now, there's a line in the law that says they're banned due to environmental concerns. Well, I don't think it's environmental concerns. They're just too damn effective, and they're trying to spread the fishing success rate out amongst other anglers. They're just too damn effective. That's the only logical reason for banning those flies. I'm sure there are other rivers in the country where certain types of flies might be banned. [00:10:30.159] Certainly, the number of hook points you can have on your leader is often included in state regulations for certain rivers. Some states you can only fish a single fly. Some states you can fish two flies. Some states you can fish three flies. Need to check before you go.
Here's an email from Michael from Oregon, "I've heard you say that you recommend replacing your fly line every two to three or three [00:11:00.059] to four years. I don't get out nearly as much as you do and I store my reels and extra lines in a cool, dark place. Do I really need to replace them that often? Are there signs that your line needs replacing? Does it start to look old or stick in the guides or something like that? Is it obvious?
My second question is not meant to be snarky or to demean guides in any way. The few guided trips I have taken have been great and the guides have been wonderful and we catch fish and I've learned a lot on these trips. I was curious if when you go on a guided trip, [00:11:30.059] if it is the same as for us flatlanders. Does the guide tell you where to cast and when to set the hook? I swear, the night after my very first trip I heard set, set, set in my sleep, and while awake for days afterwards. No complaints. Honestly, we caught fish, lots of nice fish. Do the guys do that to you too? Thank you for all I've learned from you over the years."
Well, Michael, you probably don't need to replace your fly line [00:12:00.100] that often because if you're not using it... You know, it's use that really wears out fly lines. It's abrasion with sand and rocks and the fly rod guides. But if you're not fishing that often and you're storing them in a cool, dark place you can probably get a lot longer. You'll know when you need to replace your lines. If you look carefully, you'll start to see cracks in the line, kind of they go around the circumference of the line. Once [00:12:30.220] you start getting those cracks, you get water inside the core of the line, which prevents it from floating that well. And, yeah, fly lines will start to stick in the guides eventually, but that's pretty rare. And if you clean your lines, it doesn't sound like you fish that many times a year, but If you clean your lines once a year, you're going to remove any dirt that might [00:13:00.019] cause them to hang up in the guides or sink. You can probably get 10 years out of a fly line if you're only fishing a few times a year. But you'll know it when you need a new line.
Regarding your second question, yeah, they do it to me too. One of the games I play with guides is to see if I can set the hook before they say set. Now, they do it to everybody because it's ingrained, it's an instinct [00:13:30.279] in them, it's a reflex. They're watching that fly probably more often than you are, because like me, you're sometimes looking at the scenery or looking ahead to see what's coming up. They know what's coming up if they know the river. But, yeah, they will tell me when to set even if I sometimes set before they tell me to set. So, yeah, they do it to everybody. And, yeah, they tell me where to put my [00:14:00.139] fly, and sometimes I do, because if I don't know the water, the fish might be living in different places than I think they're living. I'm pretty good at reading the water and knowing where trout are going to take a fly, but I always listen to the guide, and sometimes, I put it where they tell me to, and sometimes I don't.
Here's an email from Nick, "Fishing the day before the last day of Wisconsin's inland 2025 trout [00:14:30.019] season, I caught three very small brookies in a stream that I know from prior experience holds a decent brook trout population. Moving to a second stream in which I've caught only adult brookies, I was instead rewarded with two adult browns of reasonable size. Tackle technique, flies, water conditions, and weather were all consistent with prior outings to these streams and I wasn't fishing in or near any reds. What was going on here? My internet research said that brookies significantly reduced their feeding during [00:15:00.000] spawning season, focusing more on spawning and related aggressive territorial behavior than food, while browns were also fall spawners, of course, are less prone to slow their feeding during the spawn. Do you agree with this explanation for my fortunes yesterday?"
Well, Nick, I sort of agree, but there's a lot of things going on during the fall spawning season. One thing is that the fish are moving around, and they may move a couple pools [00:15:30.519] to find a spawning spot, or they might move miles and miles and miles to find a proper spawning spot. So, they're moving around for one thing, so it's tough to predict where they're going to be prior to the spawning season. Some brookies and browns start their fall spawning migration in the northeast and the Midwest as early as late August. So, you never know exactly where they're going to be. That's one of the mysteries.
And the other thing [00:16:00.039] is that I don't agree that browns feed more than brookies prior to spawning. I do know from research that I've done that their growth rate slows down greatly in the fall, regardless of whether they're brook trout or brown trout. Now, part of that might be that their energy is going into spawning so that their growth rate is as much. But I don't think they feed as much, and that's personal observation. [00:16:30.179] I just don't think they feed as much. However, I have caught brown trout that I know were on their spawning runs because they were too big to normally be where I caught them. I've caught them on dry flies and certainly that wasn't aggression. They're feeding. And I've got brook trout on dry flies and nymphs.
And now, nymphs you can argue that maybe that spawning fish was trying to get something out of the way, trying to get it out of their face. [00:17:03.059] But, again, it's inconsistent, probably going to vary between stream to stream. But know that fall fishing can be more difficult. And, yes, they are more aggressive. So, often streamers or brightly-colored flies will work better because they are getting aggressive and territorial during spawning season. But they don't feed as much, they move around a lot, but they do feed at times. So, [00:17:30.019] it's a lot of maybe, perhaps, and it depends.
John: Hey, Tom, this is John from West Virginia. Big shout out to you and Orvis for all you do to help our sport. Hey, I was given a lot of materials years ago when I started tying flies from guys that were getting out of it. And one of the things I came up with in this collection of gifts was a Micro Mink Zonker in natural brown. [00:18:00.960] And I was wondering if you know of any specific patterns where this would be useful. Thanks for all you do. Bye.
Tom: So, John, those Micro Mink Zonkers are very useful. One is that they're great for tying little tiny sculpin patterns. You can use them for the back of a sculpin pattern, or you can leave a couple sticking out to the sides to imitate their pectoral fins. So, just plain, old, normal [00:18:30.500] zonkers, you can use them for claws on crayfish patterns. Have them stick out the back and look like the trailing claws on a crayfish pattern. And then there's the micro jig leeches that a lot of people use that are very simple fly. And I don't know exactly what type of zonker strip they call for, but your Micro Mink Zonker would be great in a mini leech pattern, mini jig leech. So, there's lots [00:19:00.000] of ways you can use it. You can also use it for dubbing. Mink dubbing is terrific. Pull out the guard hairs or leave them in if you want a buggy fly, and cut it off the hide, and then use it for dubbing. Mink dubbing is an excellent floating dubbing and it's a nice natural brown color. So, lots of ways you can use those zonker strips.
Here's an email from Tom from Colorado, "What is the deal with building your own leaders? From my understanding that was the original [00:19:30.099] way, and quite frankly, the only option in the past, and it may have made sense then. But I cannot understand why anyone would not use a knotless-tapered leader and just modify from there. I can't imagine anyone can build a better leader than a machine-generated taper. Additionally, why would anyone want to put more knots in the leader system when knots weaken the leader? Not to mention the knots that will be added as you fish and cut back or add tippet. I would think you can modify a knotless-tapered leader to pretty much anything you want while working [00:20:00.039] to just maintain the taper with butt material and tippet. Am I missing something? Is building your own leader some sort of badge of honor in the fly fishing world for serious anglers?"
Well, Tom, you're right that it was kind of the original way because in the old days, particularly with gut leaders where they were using silkworm gut, they couldn't extrude them in a taper so that you had to tie knotted sections together. And then when we got to nylon for [00:20:30.140] leaders, people would still make their own knotted leaders. And it was not so much out of inertia from the gut leader days as it was that the knotless leaders in the old days, I'm talking 1960s, 1970s, even 1980s, the knotless leaders weren't that good. The tapers weren't that great. The machines they had to make knotless-tapered leaders were not as sophisticated as they are today.
But [00:21:00.700] today's knotless-tapered leaders are great. The tapers are great. They cast well. You can modify them easily. However, there may be times when you think that you want to have a different taper in your leader because leader taper is a critical part of your fishing. And sometimes you might want a really, really long butt or a really long tippet. Or maybe you want to [00:21:30.480] monkey with the transition sections of your leader. There are people, really good anglers, that still use knotted leaders that they make themselves. Now, I recommend that everyone, at least, sometime in their fishing career, tie their own knotted leaders. And there's lots of formulas on the web that you can find for knotted leaders.
The knots aren't really so bad because most of the knots in [00:22:00.039] your leader are way up in the heavier sections. And your tippet knot is going to be the weakest part. And those ones that are way up in the butt section and the midsection of your leader, they're not going to break. So, it's not really a weak point. Knots do sometimes catch weed if you're fishing in weedy water, so that can be a pain. But you can really customize your leader by tying your own. And some people just like to do it. So, I don't [00:22:30.160] think you're missing a lot by not tying your own leaders. But you are missing kind of the learning more about how the leaders are tapered.
The other way you can learn how leaders are tapered is just take a micrometer to a leader and measure it at various sections and figure out what the taper is. But I think it's an eye-opening thing. And you should try it at times. But, again, knotless-tapered leaders today are really, really good. [00:23:01.299] And I use them myself. I don't use many knotted leaders. I don't tie many knotted leaders unless I'm... For instance, the other day I was fishing with my 1-weight Superfine. And I felt that the butt section on knotless leaders were a little too stiff for the 1-weight line. And so, I developed my own leader formula for the 1-weight line. I actually used intermediate sections from a knotless-tapered [00:23:30.839] leader, put a 19,000 or 17,000ths butt section on the leader, and then tapered down from the end. And you know what? It didn't work that better than the standard leader. So, I'm still playing with it. But that's the beauty of building your own leaders, that you can play with those tapers.
Here's an email from Joe from Vancouver, British Columbia, [00:24:00.440] "I have a few questions for you about fly rods and lines. I have multiple 4-weight rods and I wanted to know what a 3-weight would provide that a 4-weight would not provide. I like to be versatile and want the ability to fish drys, nymphs, and streamers. Would a 3-weight line and rod cast a small streamer size 10 and below? I try to practice in the grass on my lunch breaks and I have found that underlining a rod results in faster line speed. I've noticed that an underweighted line and faster line speed leads to less accuracy. Specifically, [00:24:30.279] the faster line tends to lose trajectory once 5 to 10-feet away from completely unraveling on a cast, usually shooting line. And it will shoot out to the right or left of the target, usually to the left. I am a right-handed caster. Do you think this is due to the higher line, speed, or result of my casting proficiency, or lack thereof?"
Well, Joe, I tend to agree with you that when you underline a [00:25:00.220] fly rod, you have to push too hard to get the same line speed in the same loop. It does tend to go a little bit fast and kind of bangs at the end of the cast because you're having to put more of your own energy into it instead of the rod bending properly. So, I think it's partly due to the higher line speed. But also, a good caster can smooth that out at the end. So, yes, [00:25:30.119] it's probably due somewhat to your underlining a rod, but it's also due to your casting proficiency.
The one thing I can suggest on this if you really want to do it that way is to use a little bit longer leader. That's going to slow down the end of your cast. The leader is more air resistant than the fly line has less mass. And a longer leader [00:26:00.099] might lessen that ability of that thing. The line kind of overshoots when you do that and it kind of tucks under. And a little bit longer leader may slow that down a bit.
Regarding your first question, would a 3-weight rod and line cast a small streamer size 10 and below? Yes, it will. It's not ideal, especially if your streamer has a little weight to it [00:26:30.119] or maybe it has a little air resistance to it, you know, deer hair head, or it's an articulated fly or something. But you can do it. It's not going to be great, but you can certainly do it if you have to, particularly with a size 10 or 12 streamer. Yes, you can do it. It's going to take you a little bit more effort to push that bigger, more air resistant fly out there with a 3-weight.
And as [00:27:00.160] far as what a 3-weight would provide that a 4-weight would not provide, on your nymph and dry fly fishing, you're going to get a little bit more delicacy. The line isn't going to land as hard because it has less mass. And 3-weight lines are typically...they're lighter in the hand and they bend more. So, with small trout, you're going to have a little bit more fun playing the fish with a 3-weight as opposed to a 4-weight.
Here's an email from Evan, "Hi, Tom, [00:27:30.059] I'd like to start off saying thank you for everything you've done for the sport and the community. I'm a new fly tire who lives in Alaska where many rivers have single hook point restrictions. For articulated streamers with multiple hooks, would you recommend that I keep the front or the back hook? Thank you so much."
Well, Evan, that's a great question. I don't like articulated streamers with multiple hooks at all and I don't use them. They tend to sometimes [00:28:00.000] hook a fish twice. They tend to get caught in the net when you're trying to unhook a fish. And I dump all my streamers in a compartment box and multiple hooks makes a big mess. So, I don't like them. And some of the streamers I tie with a trailing hook on the articulation, and some of the streamers I tie with the hook up front. In other words, the main part of the fly where [00:28:30.160] you tie it on has the hook, and then the articulations or shanks or whatever behind it. I think that I like the front hook better.
One reason is that you get a better hook set. When you have that hook up front, you are connected directly to the hook point with your leader. Whereas, if you have that trailing hook on those [00:29:00.160] articulations, sometimes you don't get a good solid hook set. And this is particularly important, not so much with trout except for really big trout, but things like salmon and I know for both end and especially for tarpon where you want a solid hook set. You're not going to get that with a trailing hook. It's going to be harder to get.
There are people that will argue for a front hook saying that the fish attack [00:29:30.940] a bait fish from the side. But that doesn't happen in my experience in trout fishing anyway. In bass fishing maybe. Bass and pike and things will attack a bait fish from the side. But every time I've had a trout take a streamer, it's almost invariably, they're chasing it, and they just engulf it. And, yeah, a trailing hook you might get a few short biters with it. But when I'm fishing [00:30:00.079] a streamer, I'm looking for a fish that really wants to eat that fly. And so, I don't mind having just one hook up front. The ones that are short striking, well, who cares. If you want to hook every fish, yeah, you might want to use a trailing hook in the back to get those short strikers. But honestly, I think that if your streamer pattern is right, you're fishing it right, and you [00:30:30.000] have the hook up front, you're going to hook most of the fish that really want to eat the fly.
So, I probably confused you more than I've given you a solid solution. But I would think, for the most part, you want to have your hook up front. Now, it also depends on how you want the action of the fly. So, having the hook out back versus up front can change the way the fly swims. So, you may want to tie [00:31:00.160] some both ways and look at them in the water and see which way you like, which way they swim better. Sometimes, having that trailing hook in the back makes a fly swim a little bit differently.
Here's an email from Colin, "I decided to pick up fishing at the start of this past summer because I realized I needed more outdoor hobbies. Toward the end of the season, I became really intrigued by the idea of fly fishing and started listening to the podcast "Archives While at Work". Side note, the [00:31:30.000] podcast has been extremely helpful to me with spin fishing, especially the episode on urban fishing, since I live in the close suburbs of Boston. My question for the podcast is this, how can I prepare this off season for my first season of fly fishing so that I can hit the ground running come springtime?
I still don't own a fly rod or any fly tackle for that matter. I was planning on attending a fly fishing 101 at the local Orva shop, but was bummed to see that those are no longer being offered for the season, so [00:32:00.039] I feel like I missed the boat. Do I get a rod now and practice casting this winter in my backyard, or will I be wasting my time trying to figure it out on my own when a two -hour class at my local Orvis shop would probably be more productive? I'm currently chugging along through the Orvis fly fishing guide. Any other suggestions for essential reading material for someone with no fly experience, but with the absolute intention of hitting the water this coming spring would be welcome. Thanks for everything you do with the [00:32:30.039] podcast. I'm happy to see that it's still being updated regularly all these years."
So, Colin, I would absolutely suggest that you get a fly rod now and practice with it. You know, doing a little practicing on your own, you'll learn from your mistakes. It's the way I learned how to fly cast and, yeah, it took me a lot longer than if I had taken a class. But if you start now and practice with it and see [00:33:00.259] what happens with the fly rod, once you get to that fly fishing 101, they can fine tune your casting. And casting is going to be the biggest problem and the most important thing that you do, becoming better at casting. So, I don't see why practicing right now would be a bad idea.
The fly fishing 101 classes are typically held in the spring. If you start now and you practice in your backyard, you'll know what [00:33:30.079] questions to ask. And the other thing I would practice is line handling. Get out in your yard, make a cast, shoot a little line, then strip in some line, and get used to, at the completion of your cast, bringing that fly line back to your rod finger. That's like the bail on your spinning rod, so that you'll be ready to strip line or hook a fish or whatever. And so, just practice that and make a cast. Make [00:34:00.000] a 30-foot cast, shoot a little bit of line, put the rod under your finger, strip in a little line, then make another cast.
There are lots of things you could do to get ready. And I'd be remiss if I recommended some books because I don't know. There's so many fly fishing books out there. I don't know what you're planning on doing. In Boston, you have lots of good warm water fishing. You have trout streams an hour or so away. You have striper [00:34:30.139] fishing right there in Boston Harbor. And so, what I would recommend is that you go to the Orvis Learning Center. You can just Google that or go to howtoflyfish.orvis.com and watch some of those videos. There's great casting videos by Pete Kutzer on the Learning Center. That'll give you some idea of the basics for fly casting. And then there's animated knots there.
Another thing I'd recommend that you practice before you get started next [00:35:00.039] spring, is practice your knots. Just learn three basic knots. Learn a clinch knot, learn a triple surgeons, and learn maybe a non-slip mono loop. Those are all there on the Learning Center. They're animated so that you can practice. And practice your knot, so that when you get on the water, you're not fumbling with your fly and your leader, and you're able to tie on a fly. But I would do that. And I would go to the Learning Center, and there's stuff there [00:35:30.239] on bass and panfish and trout and saltwater. Figure out what you want to do with that fly rod. Watch those videos. And then once you decide what kind of fly fishing you want to do, because there's lots of things you can do other than trout, then start looking at books. And again, there are so many books out there that I couldn't even begin to recommend, [00:36:00.719] books beyond the Ovis fly fishing guide, which is kind of the basic guide to most aspects of fly fishing.
And finally, here is an email from Jack, "Hi, Tom. I'm a pretty new fly angler down in Arizona, and recently had a frustrating experience with extremely spooky trout. It was on a small stream with a long stretch of wild brown habitat. I was seeing plenty of fish with several nice bruisers in there. But every time I got within about 20 to 25-feet [00:36:30.119] of the water's edge, every fish in sight scattered and didn't come out of their hidey hole until I was long gone. It was a cloudy, rainy day, no shadows.
I always approached from downstream, and I was coming in very low and slow. A few times I even got down on my hands and knees and crawled to the water. But the second I got my rod up to make that first cast, every fish in the pool disappeared. Didn't matter what flies I threw, because they were gone long before my line hit the water. I fished several miles of creek over about 7 hours without a single bite despite seeing plenty of fish. Any tips or tricks [00:37:00.199] on how to handle spooky trout like this? Do I just give up this creek as a bad job and find somewhere the fish are biting? I feel like I've got a vendetta against this creek now, and I won't have peace until I pull a trout out of it. Thanks so much. I love the podcast. It's an excellent resource for beginners like me."
Well, Jack, that is a tough one, but it's a good question. [00:37:31.840] And I have streams like that where on most days, I know I'm not going to be able to get close to those fish. But you were on a cloudy day, which is a good thing. If the fish are super spooky and you can't even get close to them, I recommend going on cloudy or gray days. So, there's a couple things that you could try here. And it's going to be all about timing because it sounds like [00:38:00.159] you did everything right and you just couldn't get close to the fish.
One is to try to figure out when those fish are actively feeding on a hatch. When the fish are actively feeding on a hatch, they get shallower in the water column, they can't see as well. The shallower they are, the less they can see of the outside world. And so, that can help. And also, [00:38:30.380] they get preoccupied with feeding. And often, when they're feeding on a hatch, they're not as spooky. So, hatches can occur almost any time of day, but typically, in the spring and fall, they're going to be feeding at midday on hatches, and then during the spring and summer, it's either going to be at first light or just before dark. If you really want to catch some fish on that stream, I would try to hit [00:39:00.159] it when there is some sort of food available, because it will make them less spooky. When they're not feeding actively, they're more on alert.
The other thing is you didn't talk about making waves in the water, but sometimes, when you step into the water, you can push waves across a pool and spook the fish. It sounds like you might have stayed out of the water at times, [00:39:30.099] but if you can stay out of the water, that's a good thing. You definitely want to fish upstream in a situation like this. You're going to be able to get closer to the fish by working upstream. If you work downstream, they're going to make you long before you see them. And the other thing is, even though you might not see them here, try to find some faster, riffled areas, where the surface of the water is really broken. Lots of bubbles and [00:40:00.139] faster water and riffles on top of the water. You might not see the fish there, but often in spooky situations like this, that's the only place you can catch them.
But in some streams like that, the fish are almost uncatchable, and you just have to keep going and trying. Try different days. And I can understand why you want to catch a fish out of there. I'd be the same way. The other thing is, [00:40:30.519] a rainy or snowy day, sometimes when rain or snow hits the water, it again, makes the fish less cautious. So, even though you're on a cloudy day, try a rainy day sometime and see if that helps. But good luck. It's a tough situation and I feel for you.
All right, that is a Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Reed about estuary fishing for salmon and steelhead. So, [00:41:00.519] my guest today is Reed Teuscher. And Reed is one of the Orvis Outfitters. And you may not know about the Orvis Outfitters. I don't think they get enough exposure. They are a team of six individuals who are there to answer your questions on fly fishing tackle, rods, reels, lines, waders, tippet, whatever. When you [00:41:30.139] call this number, 800-548-9548, or if you send an email to, I think it's This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. Isn't it, Reed?
Reed: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it..
Tom: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. You're going to get a real person online. You're not going to get AI. You're not going to go through a whole host of menus where you have to punch a bunch of buttons to get to the right place. You're going to talk to a real live human being [00:42:00.099] who has either been a guide or an Orvis retail store fishing manager. And they're all passionate fly anglers. So, they understand your issues and your confusion about things like floating fly lines and which rod to pick. And they're here to help. They're there to help. And so, they're a great resource. A lot of times I get questions that could be answered by the outfitters in [00:42:30.000] the podcast mailbox. And sometimes I don't get to them for three, four, five weeks, depending on how many questions I have. And if you want to answer right away, if you need a new rod or a new line or some new tippet, this is the place to go.
So, anyway, Reed and I, today, I'm just going to listen and ask questions, but Reed's going to talk about estuary fishing, saltwater fishing for steelhead and [00:43:00.139] salmon on the West Coast, which is something that I have never done. I've caught a few steelhead and a few salmon in West Coast rivers, but never in an estuary. So, Reed, I'm going to let you take it away and tell people when and how and why and, of course, what flies to you.
Reed: Perfect. Thank you, Tom. We appreciate it. And just a slight correction, there are actually seven of us in the Outfitter Department now.
Tom: Oh, so.
Reed: Even [00:43:30.019] more folks to help you.
Tom: Great.
Reed: Yep. And as Tom mentioned, Outfitter Department is, basically, your online fly shop that if you don't have a local fly shop close or that you have a relationship with, we're always happy to talk to you. We love to talk fishing. As Tom mentioned, we're all passionate anglers ourselves in the department. So, yeah, we'd love to have a conversation with you. But even though [00:44:00.480] Orvis is maybe known as an East Coast Company, our Outfitter Department, I remember the Outfitter Department is spread throughout the U.S. We actually have one of our team members now in the Manchester area. There's one still in the Roanoke area, Roanoke, Virginia, one in the Midwest in Missouri. The rest of us are West Coasters and a couple in Idaho. I'm in Idaho, but I'm born and raised Oregonian, proud Oregonian. And have one fellow in Reno in the Sierra Nevada [00:44:30.239] area, and then another in Central Washington.
So, we have great diversity across the country. And if one of us, specifically, don't know about your fishery, one of the other of us likely does. So, we're a great resource for you. But I've been a Pacific Northwester. I've spent a ton of time chasing anadromous fish, both on the coasts in Oregon, Washington, Northern California, [00:45:00.079] and up into Alaska. So, a lot of great fishing to be had around there. As we know with those salmon and steelhead runs, they can be cyclical. Numbers can be up and numbers can be down, but when you can get into them, it's a kick in the pants, whether with a single-handed rod or a two-handed rod. With salmon runs are not what they once were in the lower 48, like they are up in Alaska. [00:45:30.139] But, gosh, given the right circumstances, you can still certainly find them from Northern California all the way on up to the Puget Sound in Sierra British Columbia. Depending on what species of salmon you're chasing, depends on what rod you use, like faster-action rods. Depending on the species, we get pink runs every other year like that Puget Sound area. [00:46:00.760]
And I like to go with a rod, at least, a 7-weight. And a better choice would be an 8-weight. It can be a lot of fun throwing flies. Don't have to be too specific, Clousers, Deceivers might do some Dolly Llamas, cone headed, or different eye Dolly Llamas, depending on how deep you want to get a fly. Be it bead chain, [00:46:30.039] be it brass eyes, be it lead eyes or heavy cones. I've been known to pack a big heavy cone with lead wire to get really deep in certain situations. Yeah, improvise and adapt and over cap, right? Colors vary. The usual suspects will go natural colors like the cop car, black and white, olive and white. Like some [00:47:00.019] of the brighter colors, pink and white, purple and white, pink and purple. I'm a huge fan of blue for anadromous species. So, I'll go blue bunny strips and pink bunny strips, that kind of thing. But, yeah, you can never have too many flies, right?
Tom: Yeah.
Reed: Yeah, it's getting out. We had one former outfitter that liked to go out on his [00:47:30.179] stand up paddle board in the sound to chase pinks that way. So, he was a glutton for punishment. But, yeah, you can do it from the shore. You don't necessarily have to be out of a boat. But, yeah, it doesn't take a big expensive, oh, gosh, output for a boat or that kind of thing. That if you have a canoe or a stand up paddle board, you can get it done with that, too.
As we get into other Pacific [00:48:00.079] salmon species, sockeye do not eat flies, they eat plankton. And so, to chase those, we're flossing them. Many of you may have seen the pictures or experienced, the shoulder-to-shoulder fishing on the Kenai River, here at Cooper Landing, I personally like to avoid that since the fish isn't eating a fly. Yeah, I'd rather avoid that. I don't [00:48:30.119] like to eat salmon and steelhead, honestly. I just love to catch them. So, spend a lot of time, a lot of money, just to catch and release a fish. So, it's a lot of fun.
So, sockeye are kind of another story, but a much more valiant species that I absolutely love is the chum salmon, also known as the dog salmon. They don't eat well for humans and that's relative. They taste really good when they're fresh. They happen to start to go through that body metamorphosis pretty darn [00:49:00.199] quick. They hit freshwater. But, gosh, when they're just fresh from the ocean in that tidewater kind of water, it's awful difficult to distinguish them from a coho, actually. And I'd argue that they fight better than a coho or a silver. They're happy to take a fly. They pull like a son of a gun. They'll go well over 20 pounds, and, gosh, they have hurt. They don't want to quit. And so, as far as a sport species, [00:49:31.420] I would put a chum salmon up against any other anadromous fish out there. It's flat fun.
Tom: Now, before we get into the other species, what are all these salmon doing out there in the estuaries? Because they've been out in the open ocean, right? They've been out offshore for one, two, three years.
Reed: Absolutely so.
Tom: So, what are they doing when they're in the estuary?
Reed: Absolutely. [00:50:00.219] So, for those of you who don't know refer to these fish as anadromous fish, salmon, and steelhead. And the term anadromous refers to a fish that's born in freshwater, goes out to the ocean to get bigger, and then returns actually to their native waters, their native waters where they were born. So, they born in freshwater, go out, get big in saltwater, and come back to spawn in freshwater, actually relatively close within yards of the [00:50:30.019] same gravel where they were born. So, like to tell folks, mother nature had GPS figured out long before man put satellites up in the sky and figured that out. Mother nature had that figured out well before we did. So, pretty fascinating. It amazes me that these fish can go thousands of miles out across the Pacific Ocean and then back up where they were born.
So, when they're staging, when they're in these just outside the mouth of the river, in the estuaries as they come in, [00:51:00.380] they're just staging, waiting for the right conditions. Depending on where you are along that Pacific Rim, Western Pacific Rim, for the lower 48 up through Alaska, it depends on how the various tributaries, various rivers have kind of specific how the fish like to return. Like here in Oregon, Washington, that kind of thing, it is water that fills up that watershed and it's flowing [00:51:30.039] out to the river that those fish can determine, okay, there's enough water coming out that it's safe for me to go up, to go likely spawn where I was born. And so, they're just waiting for the right conditions, right temperature.
There's enough of them out there. They don't want to go up when water's too low because that actually can get stranded up there. Depending on what sex they are, they might not have a male or female with them that they can finish their spawning [00:52:01.079] routine. And so, yeah, they're just kind of hanging around out there waiting for, gosh, mother nature to give them the green light that, okay, it's time to go up and do our thing on the rivers. Go ahead.
Tom: Sorry, when they're in the estuaries staging, once they get into freshwater, they don't feed, they might strike things out of aggression, but they don't feed. Are they still feeding when they're in the estuary?
Reed: Absolutely, they are. And I [00:52:30.960] will say that when those fish return to freshwater, they are not trying to fill their bellies. But they will certainly be at a latent feeding response, kind of a distant memory, that kind of thing. They will take flies, steelhead especially, that when salmon come back to freshwater, it's a death sentence for them. Once they spawn, you've seen the T-shirts or the different posters that you'll spawn until you die, that kind of thing. [00:53:00.780] It's a death sentence for the salmon, but it isn't necessarily for steelhead.
So, steelhead that are spawning closer to the ocean have a much higher chance of surviving as opposed to those that have to come inland. Like steelhead that come up the Columbia, then into the snake drainage, that kind of thing, that will go hundreds, if not thousands of miles of inland. It's usually a death sentence for them. They just don't have the energy to make it back out to the ocean. But they're [00:53:30.079] doing, gosh, coastal tributaries that are only coming in 15, 20, 30, 40, 50 miles. There's a high likelihood that they will survive and can make it back out to the ocean.
So, they will eat. I have a dear friend that passed away a few years ago. The North Umpqua River in central Oregon, gosh, western central Oregon, is a river I've spent a lot of time on. [00:54:00.300] Frank Moore, who is, gosh, a legend that lived on the North Umpqua River, once got in a discussion with a notable angler that claimed that fish didn't eat, or steelhead didn't eat when they came back to freshwater. And this was some time ago, 40s, 50s. Frank actually killed a couple of steelhead and sent stomachs full of stone flies to this office to prove that, yes, in fact, steelhead do eat. They just [00:54:30.000] aren't necessarily trying to fill their bellies.
But anyway, total side note. So, yeah, they will eat. As we get into the conversation, my fly selection and how I like to look at flies is based on triggering those fishes, feeding responses, whether they think they're actually chasing prey or not. So, yeah, they're still actively taking a fly out there. They're still [00:55:00.099] eating sardines, Minnows, whatever it may be that are out in those estuaries. And that's where patterns like Deceivers that are more baitfish, bigger baitfish patterns come into play. Clousers and bigger, bigger Clousers that are 4 or 5, 6-inches long, look like those little baitfish that are out there. So, yeah, no, they absolutely will eat a stripped fly.
Tom: How about shrimp imitations? I know that Atlantic salmon, shrimp, and squid type things [00:55:30.840] will interest Atlantic salmon. Will they also interest Pacific salmon?
Reed: Absolutely, especially in those tide waters up to where the tides reach, where you do have those shrimp that live in those areas. Yeah, kind of those reds and orange flies, shrimp invitations, absolutely are effective.
Tom: Now, I kind of cut you off. You hadn't finished going through all the Pacific salmon species. You probably want to talk about silvers and kings [00:56:00.179] as well, right? We should probably finish that.
Reed: Absolutely, yep. Silvers are a lot of fun. They're a great eating fish. They take a fly a little different than the other species. Gosh, it is pink. If your fly isn't pink, you're probably, you know, not as much in the game as you could be. And then they also like to take the fly, but they're looking for a drop as quick as they can. I actually guided a [00:56:30.000] river in Western Alaska that had robust runs of every Pacific salmon species. And so, we got to play a lot with different flies, and there were plenty opportunities to experiment. But a sparsely tied jig headed fly, we'd actually buy jigs like a bass fisherman, might use an orange, be it, gosh, even like polar chenille, orange flash, something like that. [00:57:00.099] You really didn't have to overdress these flies because you wanted to get it to drop as quickly as possible.
And that elicit strikes from coho, those fresh coho in that water. Not sure what it is about them. But there's one client I had that we got up to the spot, you can actually see those dark backs of the fish as they're moving through. And so, I handed him his rod. It was actually the first year Helios 3 rods had been introduced. [00:57:30.000] And he'd bought them in a 3-weight through 12-weight. So, he'd brought these brand new rods up that were phenomenal. And I tied on the fly for him, handed him the rod, and I literally threw the fly out into this little pool where we were. And as he picked up the cast, he hooked a fish. And he looks at me and he's like, "Really?" I'm like, "Yeah." So, we landed that fish. The next cast, he actually cast the rod and hooked again and we landed that fish. [00:58:00.679] And he looks at me and I'm like, "By my count, that's two fish with one cast. So, I think we're doing pretty good."
Tom: Wow.
Reed: But, yeah, they're a ton of fun. And then the Chinook or Kings are phenomenal. I like to use two handed-rods for those just in presenting intruder style flies. Just, yeah, when you're in that lower water, that tide water that [00:58:30.219] transitions, brackish water that as the tide moves in, it's salt, but then as it goes out, it transitions to the fresh water. Swinging in the deeper holes, call them big tubs, big bathtubs where those fish like to hold and sit. But, yeah, those Kings are a kick in the pants, and gosh, a ton of fun to chase. But, yeah, they're all fun.
And then steelhead or another phenomenal species. I like to chase those all over the [00:59:00.059] place inland outland. They're super similar to salmon in how they eat, their curiosity level. They, gosh, guide buddies before, we've talked about a steelhead being like a 2-year-old child, curiosity of a 2-year-old. You've ever watched them, except steelhead don't have arms. And so, my thought process when presenting the fly is that you're either trying to pick their curiosity or piss them off. And they [00:59:30.059] want to come check it out. They want to come find it. And since they can't grab it with arms, they grab it with their mouth. Yeah, a ton of fun.
Tom: Okay. So, when you're pursuing these fish in brackish water and estuaries or in salt water, where do you look? Let's say you're faced with a big estuary. You've got beach on either side. You've got the estuary itself. You might have islands. You might have current, you might not. [01:00:00.380] What do you look for, Reed, when you're looking for these fish?
Reed: Sure. Well, with like any fish, they're looking for the path of least resistance. We aren't necessarily targeting the super heavy, fast water or current. But looking at kind of that slack water, soft water next to the heavy water, that is nice lanes for them to travel in. There are certain places along the coastlines where if the river is small [01:00:30.039] enough, you can actually see them cutting through the breaks where the mouth of that river or creek, that tributary cuts out into the ocean. And you know they're in there. It's in the game. You're in the game, right?
And sometimes, you just have to go and search. Like with all fishing, if you wait to hear the fishing's good, you're probably a day or two late. There's a lot of trial and error in getting out there. But, gosh, if you [01:01:00.079] aren't there fishing, you aren't going to have the opportunity to catch fish. I've worked in fly shops for a long time, well over 20 years. And I was in central Oregon for some time. We used to get customers calling into the shop asking if they were going to catch a steelhead if they went out. And it's one of those little chagrin, but my response was, "I can't guarantee you'll catch a fish. But what I can guarantee you is you won't catch [01:01:30.039] a fish unless you're out there with your fly web."
We'd see it. And the conversation continued that, would you rather be home cleaning the garage or would you rather be getting spent on the river? It's like, "Now that you put it that way, I'd rather be on the river." So, yeah, gosh, it's not a given. It's not a fish that lives in that area. They're cyclical and they're migratory. And so, you won't always have success. But when you do, gosh, it's a [01:02:00.119] big fish, fish over 10 pounds that are fresh from the ocean and pull hard. And so, that's pretty darn good in my book.
Tom: If you have no current, let's say it's a bigger estuary, and everything is slowed down by the time it hits the ocean, so you just got a big, wide, flat expanse of water, what signs do you look for? Do you see the fish showing, or are there certain aspects of the topography that you look for if there's no current?
Reed: [01:02:31.380] Sure. Well, with that, it depends on how you're fishing, what technology you have. When we've got the sonar and that kind of thing, you can find channels and slots. Now, there's deeper edges. Fishing the estuaries is a lot like fishing lakes for trout. It's a big, wide expanse, and if the fish aren't showing themselves, then it's a lot of trial and error. Now, you're just searching. If you have the electronics to help you mark fish or mark structure, [01:03:00.380] that certainly helps you. That's in your favor.
Something I will, it's a little side note about patterns, but I'm going to talk about UV-treated materials, especially like slopping, gosh, Chinese saddle hackle, that kind of thing on streamer patterns. That, I don't want to debate whether UV works or not, but the one area where I've truly seen UV materials make a difference is in [01:03:30.039] these estuaries just out in the bays, in the mouths of rivers. But if you get below about 10, 15-feet where natural light starts to disappear, but UV light still penetrates through, those UV material flies really do make a difference. I've seen that work myself, so...
Tom: Now, is this fluorescent materials, materials are fluorescent?
Reed: They're UV-treated. So, a lot of people think that it's fluorescent and it's not. With the light spectrum, [01:04:00.539] we've got colors of the rainbow, that kind of thing. But the ultraviolet is, gosh, that color that's not visible to the human eye, but it is visible to animals. And so, yeah, being able to get down to those depths where the visible light that humans can see, it starts to lose pigment, that kind of thing just might look like a dark blob or disappear altogether. That UV-treated or flies made from the UV-treated material [01:04:30.480] still shows up, still is, I guess, yeah, for lack of a better description, it fluoresces underneath there. And so, it's more visible and easier for the fish to see.
Tom: Okay. And so, it sounds like you are going to need some sinking lines to do this often, right?
Reed: Exactly, yep. And that's where, like, Aruba's depth charge line, which sinks about 8-inches per second, depending [01:05:00.039] on how much tension it's under, gets you down to those deeper depths much quicker. So, if you're out in the bays in estuaries, something like the pro depth charge in a grain weight, it's not sold in line weight designations, but actually, grain weight designations make a huge difference to help you get down into that zone so much quicker. If the fish aren't that deep, you could do something with, like, a sink tip. Our bank shot line comes in a type [01:05:30.179] 7-sink tip, 10-foot, about 7-inches per second sink rate that can get you down. That's great. And, gosh, that's down to about 5-feet or so, or like a sink tip that you can turn your floating fly line into a sink tip by looping the sink tip off of it. So, several options there.
Tom: So, you don't use a floating line very often in this fishing?
Reed: In the bays and estuaries, like when [01:06:00.119] I described fishing for coho, where it's just a drop, we don't need to get down deep. A lot of times, you're seeing those fish's backs. You can see the dark back as the fish moves through where they're porpoising on the surface. So, getting super deep really isn't necessary with species like that. The chum salmon, not necessary either with, gosh, Chinook. Yeah, the depth charge can get you down to the deeper depths. And if we're [01:06:30.239] in freshwater or just in that transition from the brackish water in the tidewater and we need to get down deep, then we'd be using a sink tip, maybe type 3, type 6, type 8, or T14, a T material, T8, T14, T17 to get down in really deep holes. But, yeah, it's based on the conditions on where you're fishing.
Tom: Okay, so like a lot of stillwater fishing, you [01:07:00.179] need multiple lines for this kind of fishing.
Reed: Yeah, one size does not fit all. If you're truly going to effectively fish that area, you've got to be prepared for every condition.
Tom: Will fish ever come up for, like, a gurgler or a popper in these situations?
Reed: Absolutely. The coho are known for that skated surface fly, eats a popper. That is a ton of fun. [01:07:31.679] It's not the most effective way to catch them. Gosh, seeing that 10-plus pound fish roll on a surface fly, yeah, it's lightning in a bottle. And if you can experience, I cannot recommend it enough.
Tom: Yeah, I imagine it would be quite a thrill to have a 1-pound coho eat a gurgler popper or something. And also, what [01:08:01.820] leaders do you use on these lines? What retrieve do you typically use? What size tippet are you using for these fish?
Reed: Sure, absolutely. With, gosh, sinking lines, sinking tips, that kind of thing, I don't recommend anything over about four feet in all reality of those tips. Anything more than that defeats the purpose of your sink tip, your sink line, especially if the fly is [01:08:30.199] unweighted or lightly weighted. The leader length longer than that, the fly can get caught up in the current. You've got a weighted fly, it's not as important, but when we're dealing with this fish, they aren't leader shy, they aren't line shy. So, we don't need to be concerned about stealth. Maybe like when you're chasing bonefish on a flat or something like that, a permit on a flat, those specific salmon just aren't, they're big bullies, and they're happy to [01:09:00.020] eat what you're throwing at them.
So, relatively heavy, up to, my heaviest is about 15, 16-pounds. My recommendation to anglers is we want the connection to your fly to be the lightest connection in your setup. And most fly line cores are in the 25, 30, 35-pound breakage strength. And so, we want the weakest connection [01:09:30.399] to be to your fly. So, if you lose anything, happen to lose any gear, it's only a fly. It's a fly line. You don't break a fly line, that kind of thing. So, yeah, I absolutely stay under 20 pounds no matter the size of the fish you're targeting. At that river in Alaska, I had a client land a 50-pound fish and we were on 16-pound test, 50-pound Chinook. So, it was a 45-minute fight, but, yeah, [01:10:00.220] 16-pound test was more than up to the job.
Tom: And do you use just a level piece of 16-pound, or do you put a butt section on those leaders?
Reed: You know, if you want to, you could do, like, a column homeboy leader, like, maybe a couple feet of 20 to 25-pound, and then a couple of feet of what your terminal pivot is. So, if you don't want to worry about, gosh, tapered leaders, tapered leader formula, that kind of thing, [01:10:30.020] either straight, that 12, 16-pound, whatever it is, or half and half with a heavier butt section if you have a fly that you might need help to turn over. But otherwise, we're dealing with awful heavy flies that once you get them moving in the right direction, they don't need a lot of coaxing to turn over, like a little size 22 bluing olive or anything.
Tom: Yep. And what retrieve do you find? Obviously, like most species, you probably experiment with different speeds [01:11:00.300] and so on, but is there a retrieve that's kind of a go-to retrieve to start with on these fish?
Reed: Absolutely. And once again, I'm going to make a reference to lake fishing that got to find out what the fish want. So, if you've marked fish, you've seen them roll, that kind of thing, let's play with the retrieve. In the ocean, bait fish, things don't hold still. They move. If you hold still, you're likely to get eaten. But [01:11:30.539] also, if your fly isn't moving, that doesn't look natural to the fish. Nothing holds still out there. They're moving and jiving and jumping around. So, think of that when you're retrieving that, moving that fly quick.
If a small bait fish is being chased by a bigger predator, it's not just going to hang around leisurely and go, "Oh, I hope it doesn't see me." It's going to try to get the heck out of there. And so, retrieves can be incredibly quick. Put that fly rod or make your cast, [01:12:00.239] put that fly rod underneath your armpit and strip that fly hand over hand with your fly line as quick as you can retrieve it. Get some great hookups that way. But also, sometimes if you're swinging, like with the two-hand rod or your single-handed rod down in that lower water in the river system where you do have current, then you're just going to swing at the speed with which the current is moving. We'll throw some men's in to try to slow down [01:12:30.000] that drift a little bit.
One of my co-workers and I were actually having this discussion yesterday about fly presentation. That I personally, when I'm swinging in current and fresh water, I'll throw one man into my cast when the fly hits the water. And then when I get to the bottom of my swing, I have a little bit of a belly, but it presents that fly at a side profile. So, I've got a relatively large side view of my fly as it's swinging around. [01:13:00.899] My fishing buddies like to micromend throughout a drift. And so, you know, the fly, they're always straight to the fly so as they're coming around the bottom, all the fish is seeing is the rear profile of the fly. And so these friends and I can fish the same run with the same fly, but we can present the fly so it looks different to the fish. And while my presentation, fish might not want to see that, my buddy with the micromends and fish may want to see the fly that way. [01:13:30.880] And so, like with lakes, it's varying the retrieve. If you see active fish and what you're doing isn't working, then gosh, mix it up. Let's try something different. Fast strip, strip, strip, and then give it a pause, strip, strip, strip, or long slow retrieves, whatever it may be. But got to take the time to figure out how the fish want to see that fly.
Tom: Do you ever tuck the rod under your arm and do the hand over hand retrieve?
Reed: Absolutely. [01:14:00.140] Yep, exactly.
Tom: Now, do you find a stripping basket helpful when you're doing this kind of fishing?
Reed: Depending on where you are, absolutely. If you're in the tide water, as you're fishing them out to these tributaries and these estuaries, there can be times where you are in the breaking waves, breaking crashes on you, where your wader's out there. And so, yeah, gosh, your line can turn into an absolute mess if you don't have some way [01:14:30.199] to restrain it. And another, I'll throw and jump back a little bit about lines, but in that breaking water, where you've got a lot of movement, you're in the surf and intermediate sink line helps a lot with that because it cuts down through that breaking water. Kind of like fishing from the shore in northeast for stripers, where if you can just get below those waves and rollers, that helps with the presentation of time.
Tom: Okay. All right. [01:15:00.319] And that brings up a question I was going to ask. Do you sometimes move away from the estuary a little bit and fish the beaches that are close to the estuary?
Reed: Sure. Up and down, absolutely. Those fish are staging out there. They're moving around. It's not like they just come park 50-feet off the mouth of that river and they're watching the barometer on their smartwatch or anything like that. They're certainly moving around, they're [01:15:30.439] transitioning. And so, yeah, there are certain rivers that when it's knowing that fish are in, you'll get crowds. And so, walking away, just fishing up and down from the mouth of that system certainly is productive.
Tom: Any particular time of day that is better for this kind of fishing? I guess it depends on tides, right?
Reed: You're [01:16:00.220] spot on. I was going to mention, there are certain places in Alaska where, talk about the lower 48, those fish are looking for enough water in the rivers before they head up and do their thing. Well, there are certain systems in Alaska where it's not a river filled with water, but rather how big the tide is that's going up into that river system. And so, in some of those areas, you'll have tide swings of 20, 25, 30-feet. And so, what happens [01:16:30.159] on those, gosh, 25, 30-foot tide swings is the fish are staging out there and it's like, okay, it's time to go. And they ride the tide in. They're covering the flats, sand grass flats in there. There's still a river system, so they're close to that. But as the water starts to recede, all of a sudden, heck, I'm in the river system, and all right, so we're here and let's go.
So, as an angler, we don't want to necessarily fish the river at that high tide. [01:17:00.180] We're looking for that, my gosh, maybe the hour before low tide is ideal as the water is receding from the river system. And these fish that were once out in this huge expanse, all of a sudden, now they're in combined spaces. And as you throw a fly to them, you know, it's like, okay, it's kind of unsettling as it is. But then all of a sudden, something's buzzing by their heads, like, what the heck's that? You know, you get a lot of vicious attacks that way because, you know, this fish is experiencing [01:17:30.579] something, tighter confines, maybe a little claustrophobic, but something's annoying them, and they want to eat or get at it, be it eat it or just destroy it.
Tom: And you have better idea of where the fish are when it's concentrated like that as well, I imagine.
Reed: Exactly. Bingo. Yep.
Tom: Yep. So, how about the very beginning of incoming? Probably the fish won't be there, yet. Is that what you're saying?
Reed: Exactly. Tidying them with the tides. Like I said, [01:18:00.039] the last hour before the tide bottoms out as it's receding from the river system. And then fish that, gosh, into the hour as we start rolling back into high tide, hour or two. So, you definitely have, you know, several hour windows, you know, two, three, four hour windows to be able to chase fish in those types of drainages. As water gets up and things start filling in, you know, [01:18:30.039] it's a time to go grab a sandwich or take a siesta, depending on what time of day it is.
Tom: Does moon phase affect the number of fish that are in the estuaries?
Reed: Depends on who you talk to. For me, personally, no. But if you're looking for an excuse as to why you aren't catching fish, by all means, moon phases make a difference. I say that with a big smile [01:19:00.199] on my face. If you're saltwater fishing, you know, for tarpon, whatever it is, if you want to come up with a reason, they're out there. But once again, you aren't going to catch a fish if the fly isn't wet.
Tom: Yeah. Yep. Also, weather conditions, are sunny days better? Are cloudy, rainy days better? Any pattern there?
Reed: You know, once again, no. I mean, I've been skunked on bright sunny days, [01:19:30.119] I've been skunked on cloudy, nasty days, and I've experienced great success on both those days.
Tom: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Just go and get your fly wet as you keep saying, right?
Reed: Yeah, get your fly wet. I mean, it's, what's the saying, you know, new anglers ask, "Well, it's raining, does that affect the fish?" And it's like, "Well, the fish are wet, they don't care."
Tom: And do you move around a lot? Let's say, you know, you're in a fairly large estuary and you're on [01:20:00.760] foot and maybe there's a little bridge upstream so you can go get on either side of the estuary or fish the beach. Do you move around a lot if you're not catching fish, or do you try to stay in one spot and hope to intercept them?
Reed: When you're lower in those river systems, because these fish are migratory, they're getting in the river and they're moving through, I find it's best just to...if you've got a good spot, it's a likely spot, you've had success there, you've seen success had there, stay with it. Most fish [01:20:30.000] are going to be coming by you. Once you get higher in a river system where fish get up there and settle in, then it's to your benefit to move around, you know, go try to find fish.
But when you're in those lower systems, you know, like on river in Alaska, Western Alaska, you could actually see the pods of coho moving through later in the season as coho or silver are moving through. And you might be able to see a [01:21:00.979] quarter-mile, half-mile down the river, bend in the river, and actually just be into the fish or banging them, you're banging them. And then all of a sudden, it goes cold. And like, okay, you know, clients are, "Are we going to move?" It's like, "Well, no, hold on, let's just look down river." And sure enough, you see the next pot of fish that are moving through. It might take them 15, 20 minutes, a half an hour to get to you, but all of a sudden you're back into it. And so, yeah, if you're in a pot of fish that are moving through, you're having success, great, you know, [01:21:30.300] stick with it. There are a lot of fish moving through, it's to your benefit to just stay in that one spot and let the fish come to you.
Tom: Okay. All right. And finally, Reed, give me a half dozen flies that you would not be without in estuary fishing for Pacific salmon and steelhead.
Reed: Absolutely, absolutely. [01:22:00.760] First fly is the Clousers, various sizes and various eyes on them. Like I mentioned earlier, I'm going to want a chartreuse over white, going to want kind of a medium gray over white, want a blue over white, maybe a purple over white, red over white even. And then with the different eye configurations, I [01:22:30.239] have them in my boxes in bead chain eyes, so not super heavy, have them in brass eyes, so a little heavier, and then big, big lead eyes to help get you down. Deceivers, and similar color profiles, especially as you're out in the ocean, out where the bait fish are, that kind of thing. You've got that Minnow imitation.
Tom: How long do you like your Deceivers for these fish?
Reed: You know, we'll run them, you know, kind of the standard is 6-inches or [01:23:00.039] so.
Tom: Oh, big ones.
Reed: Yeah, yeah, tie them longer and shorter. Might have them down to 4-inches, but kind of 6-inches is as a general rule. You can go up and down from there. But if I'm only going to want to have one size, it's going to be 6-inches or so. Dolly llamas, which is, you know, the bunny strips, one over the other. Once again, in different profiles, I'll do them in bead chain eyes and some lead eyes, [01:23:30.239] depending on how deep I want to get. And vary those in lengths. We'll have them relatively short in 3 or 4-inches, but we'll tie them as long as 8 or 9-inches as well. Relatively big.
Tom: You're throwing those 8-inch flies with an 8-weight?
Reed: Yeah. We'll bump up. When you're chasing, 8 or a 9-weight is a general rule, is a great rod for everything, but Chinook. You're in Chinook then we need to be looking at a 10-weight or even heavier. [01:24:00.260] But, yeah, actually 8-weight is ideal. If you know what you're doing, you can get away with lighter, but 8-weight is a great place to start. And when you're doing this ring, have more than one rod with you. These fish do break rods. And so, you can have your premium rod, have your Helios with you, but, gosh, even if it's a clear water, less expensive rod, it's [01:24:30.159] still a phenomenal rod that makes an incredible backup and, gosh, it saves a day if you happen to break that Helios. So, always those who die with the most gear wins, right?
Tom: I guess so.
Reed: I'm doing my best.
Tom: All right. I kind of sidetracked you. I think you gave me one, two, three flies.
Reed: Yep. I think we were at three. With those Dolly llamas, I will [01:25:00.479] say that if you're tying your own, you can use, like, an orange chenille, egg sucking leech to it, which is pretty darn productive. I like that kind of jig-style, pink fly, like I mentioned for coho. That's another great one to have. Intruders in the various colors, you know, for the Kings especially, or five of them. I will talk, if you don't mind, if we have time, a little bit about color. [01:25:30.579] Read a book years ago as I recall, it was called "What Fish See". And fellow did actually dissected the eyeballs of fish and at various stages throughout, gosh, their life journey. And when that anadromous fish was out in the ocean and just fresh from the ocean into the river systems, the rods and cones of their eyes were set up to see [01:26:00.199] hues of blue much better, so blues, grays, and maybe purples. But then once that fish got into the river system, and they started to go through their body change, metamorphosis to spawn, the rods and cones changed so that they were more receptive to reds and oranges.
Tom: Ah, interesting. Interesting.
Reed: That kind of thing. And so, if you want to geek out and you want to have, you know, different flies for different places, another book, [01:26:30.920] the forward to... I hope I can name it right, but Dec Hogan wrote a Spey casting book a couple of decades ago that's a phenomenal book. And the forward to that book gives a life cycle of steelhead specifically, but an anadromous fish in general. And a major point that I picked up from that book is that a major food source for these anadromous fish in the ocean is squid. So, they're out there chasing those fish in [01:27:00.060] the ocean. And so, I personally, I've got a personal steelhead fly used for salmon to incorporates a lot of Marabou, a lot of undulation, a lot of fluctuation with that. And that's Spey Marabou, bigger, not Woolly Bugger Marabou, but Prime Marabou, Spay Marabou that has a lot more movement. And in my thinking anyway, in my mind, it works for me. I think that kind of undulation and movement of the Marabou is very squid-like. [01:27:30.239] And so, I think I get strikes, I get responses to fish thinking they're feeding on a squid, no matter where in the river system that is. So, that's one of those, gosh, little side notes. It works for me. Popsicle flies or an Alaska fly incorporates a lot of Marabou. My fly kind of steals design ideas from a popsicle.
Tom: Okay. All right. That's a good list. [01:28:01.159] Probably don't need anything more, right? Just need to get them wet.
Reed: Well, it is. Like all anglers, you know, we have hundreds of flies. If you retire, it's fun to tie flies. But when we get to the water, there are probably those handful of flies that we reached to because that's what we have confidence in. And so, as you start doing this and, you know, you have success, I know people [01:28:30.319] with steelhead, especially further up the river, they want to know what fly you're using. And my response is it's the fly you have confidence in. You get through with a run and you think, "Boy, I should have had that fly on." It's like, "Absolutely. You should have." So, dance with who brung ya, right?
Tom: Yep. So much as confidence, particularly with fishing for anadromous fish, because there's a lot of casting [01:29:00.220] involved, and sometimes, endless casting. And you better have confidence in that fly that you got in the end.
Reed: Absolutely.
Tom: All right, Reed. Well, that has been a great overview of anadromous, salmon, and steelhead fishing, a topic I don't think I've ever done on a podcast before. So, I appreciate you talking to us about this today.
Reed: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
Tom: And so, [01:29:32.779] if you want to ask Reed more questions, you know where to get hold of him, 800-548-9548. And Reed and the rest of the team are there to help you out. We're, here to help you on your journey and help you solve your problems and get the right tackle and have the right techniques. So, appreciate you talking to us [01:30:00.020] today and all that you and your team do.
Reed: Thank you. Thank you, Tom. And I'll plug our email address also, which is This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. So...
Tom: Yep. All right. Thank you so much, Reed. And I'll be talking to you soon.
Reed: Thank you, Tom.
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