North American and European Fly Tying Cross Pollination, with Barry Ord Clarke
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast. This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer, and my guest this week for the main part of the podcast is the great Barry Ord Clarke. If you're not familiar with Barry's work, he's written numerous books on fly tying. In fact, he has a new book on [00:00:30.079] fly tying, a terrific new book that we'll talk about. And he's done lots of terrific videos that you can see on YouTube, and we'll give you a link in where to see those videos. But what we're going to talk about today, what Barry and I discussed, is the cross-pollination of fly patterns between the U.S. and Europe. I sure learned a bunch of things in this podcast, and I [00:01:00.039] bet you will, too, a little bit of the history of some European fly-tying techniques, and a little bit of some interesting materials. So, if you're a fly tyer, I think you'll be interested. If you're not a fly tyer, you may also be interested in it because you do use flies. Even if you don't make them, you're probably a bit interested in where the designs come from. Anyway, I hope you enjoy that podcast.
A little announcement before we start the Fly Box, one thing I wanted [00:01:30.200] to let you know, and I think I've let you know before on the podcast, but the Orvis Rod Shop is now open, and has been open for, I think, a year or so, for tours of the Rod Shop. And you can go in and talk to the people that work on the rods. You can see graphite, fiberglass, and bamboo rods where they're made. Most of the rods that Orvis sells are made in the USA. All of the higher-end [00:02:00.040] rods we make are made right in that rod shop. And you can take the tour if you want. You just need to show up at the Orvis retail store or at the rod shop behind the retail store at 10:30 a.m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday. They don't work in the rod shop on weekends. So, if you're interested in seeing how Orvis rods are made and you're in the area, it's really an interesting tour. I always enjoy it every time I go through it. [00:02:30.398]
All right, let's do the Fly Box now. The Fly Box is where you ask me questions or you pass on tips for other listeners, and I try to answer your questions if I can, or I try to find out an answer for you if I can. I read them all, I don't answer them all. But I want to thank each and every one of you who has ever sent in questions for helping make this podcast more interesting. Some people tell me that they enjoy the Fly Box part of the podcast more [00:03:00.539] than the interviews. So, that's really great. And I'm glad some people find them helpful. First Fly Box question is an email from Jeff from Chardon, Ohio. "Tom, thanks for dedicating the past show in honor of John Gierach. My bookshelf has a great collection of both your and John's books." And he says, "No, I don't believe you only write instruction manuals." "Quick question, I have a [00:03:30.039] 10-foot 4-weight Orvis Recon that I love and use for nymphing, dry fly, swinging small wets for trout and at my local park pond for bluegill and small largemouth. The question I have is the lack of fly line control when retying flies or tippet onshore or in my kayak. As much as I try, typically end up with the fly line wrapped around the rod by four or five times where even tapping the butt doesn't help. Any tips on how to [00:04:00.840] prevent this creating this wrapping mess? Thanks for everything you and Orvis do for our natural world."
Well, Jeff, join the crowd because I think 9 out of 10 times when I switch flies, I get my fly line wrapped around the tip of the rod, too. So, it is a problem. I find it especially challenging in a drift boat. I seem to do it more in a drift boat, and I think maybe it's [00:04:30.180] because of the rocking of the drift boat. The only thing I can think of is try not to have too much line extending beyond your rod tip when you tie on a new fly, and then try to hold the rod somewhere where it's not going to get bounced around as you're looking for a fly in your box or tying something on. I mean, if you're in your kayak, hopefully, you have a rod holder, you can put the rod down instead of holding it under your arm, and that's going to prevent it. But I think it's just the rod tip bouncing around [00:05:00.394] when we root around for a fly or when we tie a fly. So, maybe just pay a little bit more attention to what's going on at the tip of your rod when you're switching flies. But I don't have any real clever ways of preventing that. I think it's just one of those things we got to deal with. Maybe somebody else has got a really clever answer. And if you do, send it to the podcast mailbox.
Oh, by the way, [00:05:30.586] I forgot to tell you where to send your Fly Box questions. Wow. You can send your questions to
Michael: Hi, Tom. This is Michael from Phoenix. I'm new to fly fishing and recently returned from a day trip to a very small stream up in Payson, [00:06:00.800] Arizona. And I came back with a bunch of questions I thought I'd ask. First, when tying on a dry fly with a clinch knot, does it matter if I create the twist by twisting the fly around, which I find easier versus twisting the end of the leader around itself? Second, any tips for better bow and arrow casting? I found that was pretty much all I was able to do in the close quarters in the stream, and I was often [00:06:30.300] submerging the fly immediately when it hit the water. And relatedly, could you bow and arrow cast a dry dropper setup? I was just using a single dry. Third, when a trout strikes your dry fly in a small stream pocket but you missed the hook set or you just didn't fully take it, how many more casts should I throw into that pocket? That happened to me, and I just felt like I couldn't walk away. And lastly, if you're waiting the [00:07:00.540] stream upstream and then you turn around to backtrack about an hour later or so, is it worth hitting up those holes you disturbed previously? And how would you recommend fishing those small pockets coming from a downstream angle versus upstream? Thanks for the awesome podcast, Tom. It's really given me the knowledge and the courage to go out there and start learning to fly fish.
Tom: Well, those are some good questions, Michael. First of all, [00:07:30.353] no, it doesn't matter with the clinch knot whether you twist the fly or twist the tip. It really doesn't matter. And it doesn't matter which direction you come into the eye from, either from above or below. Just go six times. I like to go six times around and then put it back through. And you can twist the fly if you want. I find that twisting the fly tends to close that loop in front of the eye, and then I don't have as much of a hole to poke [00:08:00.180] the end through. So, I prefer to twist the end of the tippet around the standing part of the tippet, or the part that attaches to the rest of your leader. And, you know, take some practice, but you'll learn how to manipulate your fingers. You'll get that muscle memory developed. So, you can do it either way. Doesn't really matter.
Tips for the bow and arrow cast. No, you know, don't expect the bow and arrow cast to be [00:08:30.100] really, really delicate or absolutely precise. It's a way of getting your fly out there when you have no other way, you have not even enough room to make a roll cast. So, it's going to be tough. If your fly is slamming into the water and it's getting drowned, I would suggest that you just aim a little bit higher, a little bit above your target on the bow and arrow cast. And that will allow that bow and arrow cast to straighten and then drop [00:09:00.179] to the water rather than getting slammed into the water. So, maybe aim at a little bit high and see if that helps.
Yeah, you can do it with a dry dropper. It's a little harder because you got more air resistance and you got, you know, typically a weighted nymph hanging from a dry fly. So, it's a little bit trickier with a dry dropper, but you can do it. And I would hold it by the whatever's hanging from the bottom. Usually, a nymph don't hold it by the upper dry fly because you [00:09:30.240] might get stuck with the nymph, although I've never hooked myself doing a bow and arrow cast. You would think you would, but never happened to me. Maybe I've just been lucky.
Regarding your hook set, typically if you miss a fish or the fish misses the fly, typically a fish won't come back to the fly, most fish. Now, if it's, you know, a brook trout that hasn't been fished over much, I find brook trout might come back two, three, four, five times [00:10:00.440] to the same fly. Most other species won't, and brook trout that have been fished over a lot won't. But sometimes they will come back. Sometimes they're so small that they can't get the fly in their mouth and they keep trying. So, yeah, you know, if I miss a fish, I always try them once or twice again, but generally, doesn't work. You got to change flies or move on to the next fish.
If you wait upstream and fish back downstream, the problem is that [00:10:30.100] you're going to be fishing downstream in the water that you just recently went through. And I don't know how long fish take to become unspooked. It depends on how much of the pool you waited through. If you kind of skirted around the edges and you didn't really frighten the fish, they might be ready to feed in 15, 20 minutes to an hour or two, but you never know. And [00:11:00.120] I think it varies with individual fish and the river and the species and everything else. So, again, brook trout probably are going to come back quicker than rainbows and browns will probably be the least likely to come back. But there's the problem where, you know, you're just going back over water you recently waited through. What I like to do, and you may consider this, what I do is I put my vehicle [00:11:30.120] in the place where I'm going to end up, where I figure I want to end up at the end of a session, then I walk downstream along a path or away from the creek and walk down as far as I want, try to estimate how long it's going to take you to get back and then fish back to your car. And then you don't have to worry about going back downstream and fishing over fish that you've just waited through. But you can try it. [00:12:00.009] You can try it and see what happens.
Here's an email from Jake from Massachusetts. "I'm looking to get a trout streamer rod that will double as my largemouth and smallmouth rod. I own the following rods. One 3-weight low-end non-Orvis, a 5-weight Encounter, a 5-weight Clearwater, an 8-weight Clearwater, and a 9-weight mid-tier Non-Orvis. I think I want to sell my Encounter as well as my 8-weight Clearwater to [00:12:30.019] fund this purchase. The 9-weight is for stripers, so I figure the 7-weight would be the perfect thing for the bass as well as fishing sinking or sink tip lines for big trout. Do you think that I'd be good with a 7-weight Clearwater or similar fast-action rod? Would love to hear your thoughts, in general. I also figure I can use my existing 8-weight intermediate and floating line on the new 7-weight. On top of that, I was thinking I'd buy a 6-weight sinking or sink tip line and that could be fished on both my 5-weight and [00:13:00.000] future 7-weight. P.S., the fly fishing community seems upset about private equity buying up well-known brands. We thank you and Orvis for your commitment to quality over maximizing profit as well as what you do for conservation."
Well, thank you, Jake. Yeah, the Orvis company always has been and still is privately owned by one family and there is no private equity influence at all in the Orvis company. So, yeah, [00:13:30.299] I think that's a good idea. The one thing I would disagree with is the Clearwater is not really a fast-action rod. It's a progressive action rod that's kind of maybe between a tip flex and a mid flex or a D and an F if you're looking at the Helios. I wouldn't consider it a true fast-action rod. I'd consider it more of an all-around rod. [00:14:00.059] You could use those sinking lines with a couple different rods, couple different line size rod. Sinking and sink tip lines don't really cast that super well. So, you're not going to lose any delicacy or anything, and they'll bring out the action in a rod okay. The one thing you want to be concerned with is that if you have a 6-weight full sinking line on a 5-weight rod, you don't [00:14:30.259] want to try to cast too far because that is going to overweight that rod a little bit. Be fine for up to maybe 40, 45 foot cast, but I wouldn't go beyond that. But other than that, sounds like a good plan, and 7-weight sounds about perfect for what you want to do.
Here's an email from Harris from Spain. "I like to listen to your podcast with my dad, Trent, when we are going fishing. We live in Spain. I'm learning to fly fish and tie flies. I would like to ask two questions. One, [00:15:01.000] do you know any good fly fishing books for young anglers? I am 6 and want to fish and study bugs. Number two, what is a good first saltwater fish on a fly rod for kids?" So, Harris, you know, based on the letter that you wrote, I don't think you want to get a fly fishing book for kids because I think that it sounds like you can read adult [00:15:30.080] books and, you know, the instruction is not that complicated. There is a book by Tyler Befus called "A Kid's Guide to Flyfishing." And at one time, it was actually published as an Orvis guide, "The ORVIS Kid's Guide to Beginning Fly Fishing." And he also has a book called "A Kid's Guide to Fly Tying." And those are good ones.
The other thing I would recommend is my own Orvis fly fishing guide. I don't think that... My writing is not that complicated. [00:16:00.360] I don't think it would be hard for you to follow the instructions in my book. But if you feel uncertain about getting an adult book, then I would try Tyler Befus' book, either the book on fly tying or the book on fly fishing. And then, you know, there are also videos which you might want to look at in the Orvis Learning Center. I'd start right with Chapter 1 because [00:16:30.139] it deals with some kids and fly fishing and then take a look at the videos on the Orvis Learning Center.
Now, regarding a first saltwater fish on a fly rod, boy, you know, it really depends on where you are. And I don't know what the...what you want to look for are some fish that that live close to shore and that eat other fish or crustaceans. That's most of them, unless they're plankton feeders. So, [00:17:00.559] you know, what I would do is...not knowing where you're going to go fishing, I would just go to a place along the shore in saltwater that looks fishy. You know, maybe there's an inlet there, or some rocks, or some sandbars, or even a dock and just put on a fairly small like a size 6 Clouser Minnow on a floating line and just throw it out there and strip it back and see what you find. Look for things like birds working, [00:17:30.960] you know, look for disturbances on the surface that might be baitfish and just give it a try.
You know, I don't think there's any fish that is not appropriate for a 6-year-old, maybe not 150-pound tarpon, but most saltwater fish, you know, come in smaller sizes, too. If you feel like you can't handle the bigger fish, you never know. You might get a big one, too. So, you know, if you want to write back and tell me [00:18:00.000] in particular where you're going to fish, maybe I can help you do something. But it's hard to beat a small Clouser Minnow for just finding out what's there.
Here's an email from Spencer. "Is there a difference between zonker strips and rabbit strips? I see both in shops, and to my eye, they're the same thing. I really love the podcast with Joe Bibbo. He was really entertaining and helpful. I'm a teacher and spend a lot of time with my students on the positive mindset concept. As for the geology and [00:18:30.240] positive time on the stream, my 20-year-old daughter is studying geology in college. She says she got her start fishing with me, flipping over rocks, looking at bugs." That's great, Spencer. No, there's no difference between a zonker strip and a rabbit strip. A zonker strip is just a piece of hidden fur that was cut from the height of a rabbit. Now, there are regular zonker strips and cross-cut zonker strips. If you're going to wrap the strip like a hackle, you [00:19:00.000] want the cross-cut, you want the regular ones. If you're going to use it as a wing, you can wrap the regular ones, too, but the cross-cut worked a little better. There are various lengths and widths of zonker strips, and they're dyed all kinds of crazy colors. There is some variation, but, yeah, they're basically rabbit strips.
Jake: Hi, this is Jake Bartlett from Vermont here, the local territory. Just calling with a couple of questions. First off, a suggestion to all listeners. Tom, [00:19:30.059] you do a phenomenal job with the podcast. It really gets me through the workday. I love everything about it, but I really think some of these listeners, I don't know, I can't speak on behalf of them, but everybody should check out your books. They really solidify information, and you can hear your voice in them. So, I commend you for that. It's great to read those. Quick questions are, first off, with it being spawning season here in Vermont and most of the country in October, I see a lot of schooling browns. I've ran into this twice now where there's just giant, I mean, swarms of browns [00:20:00.240] schooling up. I assume this is all relative to spawning. They're gathering for that.
I usually avoid them, work around them, get out of the water, and move around them. I know to avoid reds and everything for that. But when it comes to them schooling, would it be unethical to target these fish? Just really would like an opinion on that. Couldn't find much anywhere else. Second question being with...might still kind of correlate to spawning. I found lately, even when I get a good hook set on a fish, when I'm fighting them in and they're [00:20:30.059] fighting, they're starting to really shake their head a lot. Real aggressive action. I'm struggling keeping them on, especially with the barbless hooks. I just wonder what your opinion is when you have that happen, when they start throwing their head left and right and really trying to put the shakes on you. Are you letting them run a little bit? Are you kind of fighting them and putting a little more pressure on them? But, yeah, thank you for the podcast. It's awesome and really appreciate everything you do for our community.
Tom: Jake, as long as you're not fishing over reds, I don't [00:21:00.319] think it's unethical, and most people wouldn't think it's unethical. Yeah, the fish are preparing for spawning, but they're preparing for spawning all their life. That's what they do. They eat and procreate. That's the whole strategy behind a trout survival. So, yeah, they might be a week or two from spawning, but what's the difference between a week or two and a month? You're still harassing them. No matter what you [00:21:30.099] do, you're still harassing fish when you fish for them. And if they're pre-spawn, I don't think anyone's going to take issue with that. I certainly wouldn't, as long as you're not walking over reds and fishing over reds. Regarding fish shaking their heads, I think you just got to deal with it. Probably, the best thing to do is to retain a tight line on them because when they shake their heads, especially if you have a [00:22:00.059] beadhead or a conehead, if there's a little slack in there, that thing's got weight and it can actually shake loose. So, I wouldn't let them run unless they want to run, but I'd keep a relatively tight line on when they shake their heads and just cross your fingers and hope they don't thrill the hook.
Here's an email from Joe from the Emerald Isle. "I've been using Orvis Mirage for wet fly fishing for wild brown trout here in Ireland for probably close to [00:22:30.039] 15 years now and absolutely love it. So much so that I've even converted some of my friends over to using it. Over the years, I've found it to be super reliable and can only remember two occasions where I had it fail. One of these was my own fault where I stupidly let an average-sized trout wrap itself around an engine prop. The other was when two good-sized fish took at the same time. I was using traditional loch-style method of a three-fly [00:23:00.200] cast, and the inevitable result was a break-off. Mind you, only one fish broke off, and I managed to land the other, which was a cracking 3.5-pound brownie. That's the positive side of the story.
The more negative side is that over the same period, I've been bitten off three separate occasions by what I can say with 100% certainty were brown trout. I can also say with 100% certainty that they were bite-offs simply due to the circumstances of [00:23:30.079] each event. Now, although the first two of these events were spread out over a number of years, the first was probably around 10 years ago, the other probably 3 to 4 years ago, the most recent one was just this August. Still fairly unremarkable maybe until you add to this that two of my buddies that are also Mirage converts had definite bite-offs this year also. We all use either 2X or 1X depending on conditions, which is plenty strong and tough enough to handle the average and not-so-average [00:24:00.299] browns we get here. Average being 1 to 2 pound with occasional specimens up to between 5 to 7 pounds. I'm just wondering if you have heard of any similar issues with Mirage or with fluorocarbon, in general?"
Joe, I haven't. And I would seriously doubt if any brown trout could bite through 1X or 2X Mirage. Fluorocarbon in Mirage specifically is very abrasion resistant and very tough. It's a very tough [00:24:30.019] material, and I really don't think that a brown trout could cut through Mirage. I'd love to see the brown trout that did. Yeah, big brown trout do have teeth, but the teeth aren't really the type of teeth that will cut through fluorocarbon. They'll do a good number on your finger if you get it in their mouth, but I honestly don't think that those were bite-offs from brown trout. There's two other things I can think of. One is [00:25:00.200] that you had a wind knot in the tippet. Mirage is pretty strong with a wind knot in it. Doesn't lose as much strength as nylon when it has a wind knot in it. But if you do get a wind knot in it and you get a really strong fish on there, it can pop the tippet and it might look like a bite-off. The other thing that I think of, you're 100% sure that they were brown trout. I'm not 100% sure. Not being there, but I'm not 100% sure. It [00:25:30.240] sounds to me like a pike. If you didn't see the fish, I know you have pike in Ireland, and they do eat trout flies. And I've been bitten off by pike many times when fishing for trout, so I would suspect it's either a wind knot or a pike. Anyway, I guess it could be a brown trout biting through it, but I would seriously doubt that it was.
Here's an email from Cav from the UK. [00:26:00.400] "I enjoyed the Casting Big Flies podcast and just have a couple questions as we are going into autumn and hopefully pike season in UK. Haha. Although the rivers around here are currently out over the banks. Just wondering if you have any additional tips for casting with wiggle tails, please, as they are really air resistant and I do struggle to get any distance. They seem easier to cast with more weight like an SSG shot added, but that seems like it's heading into becoming a conventional lure. Could probably [00:26:30.299] cast it further on a mono rig, or shall I just save money and effort and stick with just bucktail feathers and flash? Also, do you have any thoughts on eyes on pike flies, please? I fish pretty slow-colored rivers generally, and so was wondering if you think they'd make much difference or would I be better concentrating on profile and bulk to move water."
Well, Cav, you know what? Wiggle tails are never going to cast very well on a fly rod. You didn't say what line size you're using, but [00:27:00.220] I would say the average wiggle tail probably want to be casting that with at least an 8 and probably a 9-weight rod. If you are still struggling with that, then shorten your leader. You don't need a long leader for pike. So, you can shorten up on your leader. That's going to help some, but a wiggle tail is still going to be a difficult fly to cast. The idea of adding a little weight to it does help when you're casting those big air-resistant flies. Putting a shot in front of them will [00:27:30.099] help a bit, but heavy fly line, heavy rod short leader is going to help you out. That's about the best I can tell you because those things just don't cast like a regular feathered streamer.
I don't have any particular thoughts on eyes on pike flies, although I would put them on there. It's not that hard to glue on a couple of eyes when you tie your pike flies. I have heard that pike strike at the eye of [00:28:00.180] a fish. They look for the eye of a bait fish. Putting that eye on there could be like a hot spot to the pike. I would put eyes on there, and I would put big ones on there. It doesn't hurt and it makes your flies look better anyway. so, might as well get a little glue and put some eyes on your pike flies.
Here's an email from Jim from Kansas. "Your podcast has been my go-to during my morning walks. I truly appreciate your insights and [00:28:30.059] the great distraction from the drudgery of some walks. This is my second submission. Previously, I asked about Missouri Spring Creeks and getting my fishing buddies coaching beyond that I am capable of. You encourage them to hire a guide, which I totally agree with. Any tips on getting them to do this? My question today relates to tying flies and also my tip relates to fly tying. My wife and I have a great backyard that birds flock to. Perhaps, it's the bird feeders. Regardless, I occasionally [00:29:00.220] find songbird feathers in our backyard that I am tempted to use in tying. Is this legal? I believe songbirds are protected, but how far does that protection extend? Those blue jay feathers are so vivid and tempting. My tip is to keep a box of toothpicks handy on your tying bench. I find them to be a good substitute for my bodkin when working with glue, paint, etc., because they are disposable."
Jim, as far as giving a tip for convincing your friends to [00:29:30.099] hire a guide, no, I just tell them, "Look, guys, you're better off hiring a guide. You're going to learn more. I'm not a fly-fishing teacher," and maybe have them watch some videos and see how guides operate. There's lots of good videos in the Orvis Learning Center and other places about fishing with guides, and they can see what it's like. If they can't afford it, they can't afford it, and then you're going to have to figure something else out. If [00:30:00.299] they really want to go fly fishing and they want to learn, it's a good idea to hire a guide.
Regarding backyard birds, I don't believe once a bird discards a feather that it's illegal. I believe that, and I know maybe in some states or maybe it's federal that you really shouldn't pick up a road-killed songbird. See, there you've got the whole carcass, and a fish and wildlife agent or a game warden doesn't know [00:30:30.059] that you didn't shoot that bird. If you're just picking up feathers from your yard, I don't think it's illegal. For another thing, I don't think fish and wildlife agents are going to come knocking on your door because you've got a couple blue jay feathers on your fly-tying desk. I think you're safe there. You don't want to sell those feathers, by the way. If you sell songbird feathers, then you're going to get in trouble. As long as it's for personal use and you find them that are shed in your backyard, I seriously doubt [00:31:00.079] if it's illegal, and I wouldn't hesitate. I believe the only feather that you're not allowed to possess unless you're Native American, is an eagle feather. Other than that, I think you can use them in good conscience. Thanks for your tip. It's a really good idea to have toothpicks handy. They're disposable and biodegradable.
Mark: Hey, Tom. This is Mark from Pennsylvania. First of all, I just wanted [00:31:30.019] to say thanks for all that you do, not just in your conservation efforts, but in making sure that fly fishing is available for all ages, abilities. Everybody has become a more inclusive sport because of what you do. I have two suggestions and a question. So, first suggestion, I do a lot of fishing on the upper Delaware, specifically the West Branch. [00:32:00.940] This time of year, it's great streamer fishing, which is a nice change of pace from throwing little tiny dry flies and getting lots of refusals. When I finish the day, I love to tie on a wet fly, just as dark is showing up, just to change things up. I think that's a good suggestion on just about any stream that you've been pounding it all day and you just [00:32:30.319] need something to change up. As I work my way down and out, I throw on a wet fly and let it swing through the current below me. As these hungry fish are switching from their daytime feeding to their nighttime feeding habits, I'm often able to get a strike or two and finish the day on a high note, which is great up there when you can have some challenging times.
The other suggestion is I've heard a lot [00:33:00.039] of callers talk about how to get the dropper loop. I've even heard callers suggest sticking the point of a fly into their finger. I just have a way that seems easy to me, which is I tie my top fly and either let that hang in the water, or I have a little magnet I wear on my wrist. When I'm tying my dropper loop for the bottom fly, I just tie it around my index finger, improve clinch, [00:33:30.440] tighten it up a little bit, and then take it off my index finger and can just tighten it around the bend of the hook of the first fly. Finally, my question, the streamer fishing. Obviously, streamer fishing from a boat gets you to cover a lot of water, so I try to do that when I'm waiting, cover as much as I can, all the way down the back channel, back up the main stem. I was just wondering, you can only cover so much water when waiting. [00:34:00.000] How long before a trout that's had a streamer thrown at it early in the day will settle down? How long do you think they're spooked for? I can only cover so much water waiting, so I've covered everything within a reasonable distance to my truck. For the better part of a day, can I settle back into a spot in the evening that I've already chucked a streamer into a couple of times? Appreciate the show, and thanks a lot.
Tom: [00:34:30.099] Well, Mark, that tip is great. I do the same thing often. It is a good way of covering a lot of water and searching water if there's nothing going on. Swinging a wet fly and casting is very relaxing. You don't have to false cast. You often don't have to make long casts. It's just really a nice way to end the day. That's a great tip. It's one that I practice often in the evening or just at [00:35:00.199] the end of the day. Regarding your dropper loop, I guess that's a good tip. I get a lot of people that have clever ways of tying a clinch knot so that you can slip it over the point of a hook when you're attaching your dropper to the hook bend. Honestly, I've never had any trouble doing that. I think that gives me an idea to maybe make a video this year on how I do it exactly, how I make my [00:35:30.179] fingers work and how I hold the fly because, again, I don't have any trouble. I tried it and I had more trouble tying a clinch knot around my index finger than I did around the hook bend. I guess it depends on what you've practiced doing. Maybe some other people will benefit from that tip, and I'll try to put together a video on how I hold the hook and how I twist the clinch knot when I'm going to the bend of the hook.
Regarding your streamer fishing, yeah, if you move [00:36:00.139] a fish on a streamer and it shows some interest in your streamer, I wouldn't hesitate to come back. And a couple hours later, two, three, four, five hours, or at the end of the day, you know there's a fish there unless it's moved. You know that fish is interested in chasing bigger stuff. What I would do, just be on the safe side, is try a different pattern, maybe a different color streamer. I'd also change up your retrieve since [00:36:30.619] you moved a fish, but you didn't hook it. That fish didn't quite commit. Maybe just a change in pattern or especially a change in retrieve might help. If you were swinging the streamer downstream, then I'd maybe fish upstream to that spot and strip back to you, or if you were casting straight across, maybe I'd get above the fish and strip your streamer along the bank or something. But I'd change up a little bit. I wouldn't use the same pattern. [00:37:00.039] But, yeah, that's definitely a likely target for a streamer at the end of the day.
All right. That is the Fly Box for this week. Let's talk about fly patterns, North America versus Europe. So, I want to have a brief interlude. Before we do the main interview in the podcast, my friend bass player, Daniel Kimbro, who plays mainly for the Jerry Douglas Band, but also [00:37:30.179] does some solo stuff and really talented guy and a fishing buddy of mine is doing something that we should all know about. So, Daniel, do you want to explain it?
Daniel: Yeah, definitely. Thanks for making time for me, Tom, and squeezing me into the podcast. Hello to all the listeners. I am a longtime Orvis podcast addict. I drive from my home in Knoxville to Nashville regularly. That's my work commute to get either [00:38:00.340] in front of microphones or on airplanes or on tour buses. And the Orvis podcast has been a road companion for a long time. And I decided to get in touch with you after we fished together because a lot of folks know about the aftermath that Appalachians in Western North Carolina, the aftermath of Hurricane Helene, excuse me. And we've been checking on musician pals, and I've got family near Asheville. And, of course, there are so many [00:38:30.139] fly shops and outfitters and guides. But what I'm not hearing a lot of conversation about or not seeing a lot of conversation about online or in the media is the effects of East Tennessee. And storm waters don't know that there's a state boundary.
The water flows downhill. And, you know, the Nolichucky River, the French Broad River, the Pigeon River, these places all come right off these North Carolina mountains that got something like 30 inches of rain [00:39:00.380] in one or two spots. And it came right downstream. And there are places in East Tennessee that were wiped off the map. You know, the only kind of analog I can think of when I see the footage from peers and neighbors and friends are it looks like something, you know, around Mount St. Helens back when that happened in 1980 or '81. It's not just the water. There were literal debris flows where sides of mountains just ran down [00:39:30.579] gullies and ravines. And there were streams that were inches deep that suddenly became chutes for all manner of debris, boulders, trees, whatever. And, you know, there are places like Unicoi County, Erwin, Tennessee, that's so close to the Watauga River. A lot of people know that tailwater or the South Holston is in that area.
These are all fishy, folks, and they're all Appalachians. And some of these places have been wiped off the map. Bridges, roads, they're gone. There's no [00:40:00.199] infrastructure. They don't have resources in place like a place like Asheville has. And it's not a competition, but nobody's talking about East Tennessee. And I just felt like I needed to do something. And I have now quite a few years of experience as a music industry professional. And I've got some contacts here in Knoxville where I live, and I decided to get on the phone and put a team together and put on a benefit concert. And we're [00:40:30.139] doing it. We're doing it on October 27th. And it's going to sell out, and you're probably not going to be able to come. But what I want to talk about is the foundation that has been...sorry, I know it's a, you know, "Hey, I'm going on a gray fishing trip, and you can't come," [crosstalk 00:40:43.060] definitely the vibe. But what I want to talk about is the foundation that folks can help. And I want to talk about the live stream that we're going to do.
So, there is a nonprofit here called the East Tennessee Foundation, and they are incredible. [00:41:00.500] And whether or not there are natural disasters, they have folks in 25 rural counties in East Tennessee. All of the counties that have been affected by Hurricane Helene fall under their purview. And they have representatives, you know, on the ground 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. They know what people need in some extremely rural areas. You know our friends, the Rutters. You know, you've had both Ian [00:41:30.000] and Charity Rutter fishing guide, buddies of ours. Your listeners know what blue lining is like, right? You know, so just imagine mudslides and boulders and trees and automobiles coming down at, in some instances, hundreds of miles an hour flowing down these ravines and stuff, and it just looks like a disaster film.
And there were dam failure warnings put out for two different dams. And if those dams [00:42:00.219] had gone, there are some folks with the Tennessee Valley Authority that were concerned that we'd have a domino effect, and we'd be looking at Knoxville underwater. It feels callous to say this aloud, but we really dodged some catastrophic bullets. And, you know, it feels weird to say that when you look at the news footage, and it looks like a war zone in some of these places. Just the amount of mud and the amount of... [00:42:30.420] It's hard. It's hard to understand by looking at pictures. But I grew up in Morristown, Tennessee, which is in Hamblen County, and there were some flood damage there. But I grew up riding around my dad. You met my dad. He broke one of your bamboo rods. We went fishing together and... Sorry, Dad. But Shawn Kimbro, my dad, you know, he's a fishing rider and an enthusiast. And before he was all those things, he was a Schwan's truck driver. Schwan's is a food delivery company. And he and [00:43:00.219] I used to ride around. I'd ride around with him on weekends. He'd pick me up on Friday afternoons, and I'd hang out with him, and we'd be delivering food in these backwoods places. And I can't stand what I'm seeing, and I want to help. So, the East Tennessee Foundation is who I've decided to work with.
And so, there's a fund called the Neighbor to Neighbor Fund. And if you can just type into a search engine East [00:43:30.239] Tennessee Foundation, or you can go to easttennesseefoundation.org, there will be an immediate pop-up window for Hurricane Helene relief. I can promise you every bit of those funds are going to the Appalachians that need it. And we need it. Some of these places haven't got the means to repave their sidewalks. And, I mean, let alone replace what has been lost. I'm talking about Cocke County, [00:44:00.139] Newport. I mean, it's insane. And again, I want to reiterate, it's not a competition with Western North Carolina. Those folks need our help, too. And there are a myriad ways to help. You know, I know my friends at "Southern Culture on the Fly"' have a drive going on to help out folks in the fly fishing industry. And I'm casting a bit of a wider net here. I'm going for everybody that needs help in East Tennessee.
So, that's basically it, man. If you want to reach out to me, I'm Daniel Kimbro. You can [00:44:30.059] Google my name, and my website comes up, K-I-M-B-R-O. I'd be happy to talk to anybody that wants to make a donation to the East Tennessee Foundation, but has questions about where the money's going and how it's being used. And that's an important question to ask these days. We need accountability, excuse me. And that's one thing that the ETF is really providing. And I'm proud of that. I'm proud to know them, and I'm proud that they're a Knoxville nonprofit that's really helping out.
Tom: Well, tell people a [00:45:00.019] little bit about the concert that they can't go to. But you mentioned something about a live stream. So, can people pay to livestream?
Daniel: Exactly. There'll be a live stream behind a very affordable paywall, and you can watch the concert. And we're going to make an announcement about that next week. When it became so clear to us that it's going to sell out so fast, we decided we needed to do something online so people could watch it. But we've got seven artists that are going to perform. [00:45:30.179] And I think some of these names might be familiar to some listeners. Adeem the Artist who is a local Knoxville person, who has really taken off recently, my dear friend, Andy Wood, who plays electric guitar in Mainland, but he's toured with everybody from...gosh, what is...? Oh, Rascal Flatts. You know, like, he is a country guitar god, but he also plays all kinds of stuff.
But then we have more folky acts. My friend, R.B. Morris, who is a [00:46:00.179] brilliant writer and was on John Prine's record label and is the poet laureate of Knoxville, Tennessee, is on the gig, Darrell Scott, an incredible songwriter, my friend who you just mentioned, Jerry Douglas, is a 16-time Grammy Award-winning Bluegrass Hall of Fame musician, Sarah Jarosz, is performing. She's from Wimberley, Texas, which was devastated by floods not too many years ago themselves. She gets it. And then Larkin Poe, who are two friends of mine, Megan and Rebecca Lovell. [00:46:30.639] I played with them when they had sort of a family bluegrass band, and then they formed a new band called Larkin Poe. And I was in the band for that transition. And they are now just massively popular, especially online. And their mom is from East Tennessee. So, I tried to get in touch with artists that I knew had some pull. I won't lie about that. I needed people that had the ability to reach a lot of audience members. But I also tried to speak with folks and ask [00:47:00.019] them to participate, those folks that have a connection to Appalachia. And all of these people do, both in the style of music that they play and in a more personal way as well.
Tom: Okay. And so, you said that the livestream hasn't totally been set up yet, but it will be next year. Yeah, it will be?
Daniel: Just now we've gotten the camera guys, we've gotten with a local company that's going to provide the cameras. And so [00:47:30.260] now, the next step is setting up the website. You know what, Tom? I can't even remember what the next step is, buddy, because it's come together so fast. But I promise that if you just keep an eye, they can.
Tom: But people can find out through the foundation. Okay.
Daniel: Yeah. If you Google Appalachian allies, the Knoxville Bijou, B-I-J-O-U, theater will come up. And that is sort of the clearinghouse for ticket buying. If somebody wants to fly down the Knoxville, there are still some seats left. [00:48:00.440] I don't anticipate those lasting through the weekend. Today is Friday that I'm speaking to you [crosstalk 00:48:04.375].
Tom: Yeah, but this won't go out till Monday. So, it'll probably be sold out.
Daniel: Okay. Well, it might be sold out by then. But check it out anyway. You never know.
Tom: Yeah, you never know.
Daniel: But you can check that website and find out about the live stream. Probably middle of next week. The Bijou sends its email list out on Wednesday. So, ideally, we're going to have this all set up by then. And the concert is Sunday. And it's last minute, but it has to be in this instance. I don't like to do things that way. But, you know, this is one of those things where we have to strike while the iron is hot because [00:48:30.099] it's not just water and emergency blankets and the Benadryl that these people need. You know, do they need 2-cycle fuel? Do they need chainsaw bar oil? Were the generators needed? Who needs the large equipment? You know what I mean? And the East Tennessee Foundation has been doing this for years. They started in 2011 when we had terrible tornadoes come through East Tennessee. Then we had the wildfires in 2016, and then we had COVID. And then [00:49:00.079] every single one of these instances, the East Tennessee Foundation was there, ready to go before any news cameras were set up. They were acting. And that's what's happening right now.
Tom: That's fantastic. And people can also just donate. If they don't make the live stream of the concert, they can donate through the East Tennessee Foundation.
Daniel: That's the main thing that I wanna encourage you to do. If you're a person who's concerned about folks who live in these beautiful places that we get to fish, you know, help them out, [00:49:30.188] 5 bucks, 10 bucks. It takes a village... Nickels and dimes help. They really do. And if we all get together and do it, then, you know... We all know how the fly fishing community can lift people up. Look at what happens for Clearwater, look at Bonefish & Tarpon Trust, look at Trout Unlimited, look at Orvis. And I'm just so grateful, Tom, for the time to be able to talk about what my neighbors need right now.
Tom: Well, thank you, Daniel, for everything you're doing. We all appreciate the work you're doing. I know you're going crazy.
Daniel: Well, it's not about me, man, it's about these [00:50:00.239] people. It's crazy. It's crazy times, man. The world is changing on the natural front. And I guess we've just got to be ready to help each other when we need to.
Tom: Yep. And you took the bull by the horns, and...
Daniel: Trying, man, trying.
Tom: ...I admire you for that.
Daniel: Thanks, Tom. Appreciate it.
Tom: All right, Daniel. Thank you very much. And good luck with the concert. Well, I am honored today to have Barry Ord Clarke as my guest. And if you are a fly tyer, you [00:50:30.099] know of Barry. I'm sure you have seen his videos. They are some of the best in the world. And if you go to the International Fly Tying Symposium in New Jersey in November, you may have met Barry, and he is an incredible fly tyer, videographer, and very, very knowledgeable, and an award-winning [00:51:00.591] fly tyer. So, Barry, welcome to the show.
Barry: Thank you very much, Tom. Pleasure to speak to you.
Tom: Now, if somebody wants to see your fly-tying videos, where's the best place to view them?
Barry: That's on YouTube, The Feather Bender. That's my channel. And I have tons of videos and techniques, tutorials, [00:51:30.400] just about everything on fly tying there.
Tom: Yeah, yeah, they're, again, some of the best. And...
Barry: Thank you.
Tom: ...very popular. So, what I want to talk about today is the difference in fly-tying practices and techniques between North America and Europe, and what Americans have learned from [00:52:00.460] Europeans, and then what Europeans have learned from American fly-tying techniques. So, Barry, I think you're in a good position to discuss those.
Barry: Sure, sure. I mean, there's been a lot of tons of influence in Europe, especially in the UK to start with from the United States. [00:52:30.316] When you think about it, there was things like deer hair were introduced to the UK from the United States. Of course, that totally changed fly tying, especially for dry flies. And, of course, since then, things have gone very, very quickly with exchanging knowledge. And, of course, the casting also is... [00:53:02.119] Especially here in Norway, the Scandinavians are obsessed with casting. And not only fly casting, but bait casting as well. Accuracy, length, you name it, they do it. And a lot of them don't even fish.
Tom: Just casters.
Barry: They find that it's kind of...I have a couple [00:53:30.179] of friends who are absolutely brilliant fly fishermen and fly tyers, and they use casting as a type of meditation.
Tom: Interesting. Meditation.
Barry: So, they go and cast without a fly. And it's the casting that is important at that time. It's kind of like a tick-tock [00:54:00.159] of a metronome. It's balancing everything out. They say... I haven't got there yet myself. And, of course, there were many great. If you look at the history of the British fly tying, a European fly tying, it's very different. Like, the Swiss were occupied with CDC from a very early stage. [00:54:30.103] Then you have the Czech Republic with heavy-weighted flies, and you have northern Spain with Coq de Leon or Gallo de Leon. Each area had its own special material or technique. And the Italians, of course, with [00:55:00.179] the unbelievably beautiful scruffy flies and their style of casting, which is totally unique. But now over the years, all these special little techniques and materials are kind of amalgamated. And I guess most of that is or a good deal of it is because of social media...
Tom: Yeah. [00:55:30.760] Yeah, I remember...
Barry: ...which, of course, is that now our new reference book.
Tom: Yeah. I mean, before we didn't have those. I remember when Nick Lyons first brought out a book called "French Fishing Flies," which didn't have very good illustrations in it, but it talked a lot about CDC. And that was a that was a revelation to anglers in North America. They [00:56:00.079] had never heard of it, never seen it. And so, I had always assumed that CDC was originated in France. But you're saying that the Swiss were... Do you think the Swiss were the first to use CDC?
Barry: The Swiss were, like, the first ones to start using it.
Tom: Interesting. And what...?
Barry: But Charles Bickel, Louis Veya, these were the godfathers of CDC. And, of course, the modern godfather [00:56:30.179] is Marc Petitjean.
Tom: Right. And he's French. So, it kind of moved over to France.
Barry: He doesn't say he's French. He lives in Switzerland.
Tom: Oh, he does.
Barry: He lives in Switzerland most of his life. Yes.
Tom: Oh, Okay.
Barry: Yes. But his family is French.
Tom: Oh, Okay. All right. Interesting. And what were those early CDC flies like, Barry?
Barry: They were very, very simple. Unbelievably simple. They had a couple of hackle fibers for a tail. They [00:57:00.039] had a dubbed body and a CDC hackle. And the hackle was CDC. And that was the basic fly. They look very, very simple, of course, which they are, but they had a very big effect. And, of course, they floated well.
Tom: Yeah. Huh. Interesting.
Barry: And since then, I think we get these techniques. [00:57:30.000] And when Marc Petitjean first used CDC on a nymph, the magazines in Europe called him mad. Why would he possibly use, you know, the best floating natural material we have on a weighted fly? And soon, everybody knew why, because it was catching fish like nobody's business. So, it's all...
Tom: What was the reason? [00:58:00.300] Because it captured air bubbles when it went under?
Barry: It captured air bubbles and it was so mobile. It was animated. And we are very...I mean, marabou, perhaps, but marabou doesn't catch air bubbles like that. Kiwi a little more, but it's all these things have kind of amalgamated. And we have great tyers from the United States, like Jack Gartside. And Jack was a [00:58:30.000] gem. He's so innovative in different materials for new patterns and seeing flies in a different way, really, and change tying, I mean, his style of tying. I don't know anybody that ties like Jack.
Tom: Yeah. He certainly saw the world in a different light, didn't he?
Barry: [00:59:00.363] Absolutely, absolutely.
Tom: He was a wonderful human being and a brilliant, brilliant fly tyer. I had the pleasure of knowing Jack...
Barry: And, of course, Gary LaFontaine, Gary Borger. And then we started using a lot of synthetics in Europe. I mean, in the UK, they use a lot of synthetics, starting in the '70s and '80s, really, for what they had to put and take fish in the reservoir fishing. And fishing flies [00:59:30.400] like boobies. And now, they've gone on to blobs, which don't actually resemble anything whatsoever.
Tom: The blobs, yeah.
Barry: And here now in Norway, we've gone totally the opposite. We have the fly-tying equivalent of a vegan.
Tom: Oh, really?
Barry: So, [01:00:00.280] they take a vise or tying hand, and they only fish with flies with materials they can find by the water they're fishing.
Tom: Oh, no kidding. That's interesting. So, duck feathers and other water birds that they find just scattered?
Barry: Absolutely.
Tom: That's interesting.
Barry: And, of course, we all know that you don't need much more than that, which is [01:00:30.559] the truth. And I'm a member of a fishing club in London. And the club motto is piscator non solum pescatur, which is Latin and means there is more to fishing than catching fish.
Tom: That's for sure. So, I'm interested [01:01:00.480] in these, as you call them, vegan fly tyers. Are they adverse to hunting these feathers, or they just cast off feathers that they find?
Barry: It's kind of the ultimate hunt, if you know what I mean. You have to go there, you have to find these discarded [01:01:30.500] natural materials. And then you have to use what is at hand in order to lure a fish.
Tom: That's interesting. That would be a fun thing to do.
Barry: It's taking it another level, basically.
Tom: Yeah, I mean, I hunt birds, and I like using feathers from ducks and quail and partridge that I shoot. But using cast off [01:02:00.019] feathers, that adds a whole other dimension to it.
Barry: And, of course, we have a lot of deer here. And if you're out fishing in the spring, you get the molt from the winter coat to the summer coat.
Tom: That must be tough to gather up, though.
Barry: I mean, you find it.
Tom: Do a hunk of hair and must be tough to stack.
Barry: Yeah, yeah.
Tom: Oh my God. Wow.
Barry: So, [01:02:30.637] it makes it much more challenging.
Tom: Yeah, yeah, it would. It would. I know my kid is interested in fibers, plant fibers, and they've made me some yarn from milkweed and hemp. And I've used that on nymphs, and it comes from my backyard. So, that's worked pretty well.
Barry: Sure. And you [01:03:00.099] have natural raffia and the poke.
Tom: Yeah. Well, that's...
Barry: I mean, it's only your own imagination and ingenuity that stops you.
Tom: Yeah. Of course, they have to buy hooks and thread, right?
Barry: Absolutely. Absolutely. But I have a friend here in town who not only makes his own rods and his own reels, and he [01:03:30.031] also makes his own hooks. He makes them from iron like Vikings did. So, he forges it, and he makes his own hooks and dyes his own materials with mushrooms and stuff.
Tom: Wow.
Barry: Yeah.
Tom: Well, we have a lot of catching up to do here in the States then.
Barry: There's no end to it. I mean, you can take [01:04:00.639] this as far as you possibly want.
Tom: Now, in the general population there in Europe, you mentioned deer hair. What else has cross-pollinated from the States over to there that is widely used? What other materials, techniques...?
Barry: Well, saltwater patterns. Saltwater patterns. I wrote a [01:04:30.179] chapter, I think it was in 1994, in the very first book on fly fishing, a Paul Morgan book, Coch-y-Bonddu Books. And then it was totally new. And it was a lot of patterns coming from the United States. Probably, the most popular pattern here for fishing sea-run bounds is the jiggy.
Tom: The jiggy. [01:05:00.199] What is the jiggy?
Barry: It's a popper fix pattern with a bullet head and some bucktail. That is it. But it fishes upside down and it jigs. Yeah. And it's very popular for fishing sea-run bounds and sea bass.
Tom: Okay. Do you use Lefty's Deceiver and Clouser Minnows too?
Barry: Absolutely. [01:05:30.280] But again, now, this sea trout explosion in the last three decades has also made this wonderful opening of fly-tying mines in creating patterns for Northern Europe. Shrimps, gammarus, sand eels, worms, you name it, we've got it all here now. [01:06:02.219] And again, it's using materials that we've never used before and opens the fly-tying department of all these tackle shops much, much more. I've actually written four books on sea trout fishing. It's that popular here, all in Norwegian.
Tom: And speaking of books, you have a new book that is coming out very soon?
Barry: [01:06:31.019] It's out in the UK now.
Tom: It is.
Barry: And it will be out in February in the United States.
Tom: Okay. And the title of that is?
Barry: Is "The Feather Benders Advanced Flytying Techniques." And I guess, I don't know how long you've been fly tying, Tom, but when I started, the resources we had were kind of [01:07:00.159] black and white ink drawings.
Tom: Oh, they were horrible. I mean, I've been tying for 60 years now and...
Barry: Gee, so long.
Tom: Yeah. And I started when I was about 10. And, yeah, the resources were horrible.
Barry: Terrible.
Tom: And if they had photographs, the photographs were such bad half-tones.
Barry: They were worse than the illustrations.
Tom: Oh, they were. They were terrible. You couldn't see...
Barry: They were [01:07:30.300] absolutely toneless, black and white, and you couldn't see anything that was happening.
Tom: No, people have no idea how good they have it these days. I mean, we shouldn't talk like a couple of farts, but...
Barry: The first book I had was a John Venard book, which is probably the book that has taught more people to tie in the UK than any other. And it was a booklet. [01:08:00.119] It was a stapled photocopied type booklet. And it was basic patterns, but it showed you some techniques. But, I mean, things like...if I was using a fly that was working, I would buy a good one that I thought looked good, [01:08:30.319] and then I would dissect it.
Tom: Yeah, unwind it. Yeah. It was the only way to do it.
Barry: And undo the whole thing.
Tom: Yeah. It was the only way to do it then.
Barry: Yeah. I mean, there was no classes that I knew of when I started. But how I did start, which was a very strange way to be introduced into fly tying, I was living in London in Notting Hill and [01:09:00.220] working as an advertising photographer. And on one Sunday, I was at a garage sale. This guy had a table out, and on this table, he had fully dressed Atlantic salmon flies and some stuffed fish. And I got talking to him, and I love these. I just thought these salmon flies were absolutely stunning. At the time, I didn't fly fish, I didn't tie flies. And I thought they were stunning. [01:09:32.300] And we got talking, and I was asking him about them. And I told him I was an advertising photographer. And he said, "Wow, gee, but will you...? I need a brochure making of my flies." And I said, "Well, we'll do a swap. If you teach me how to tie these flies, I'll do the brochure for you." So, he came right to my house in London every Thursday night, I think, for about [01:10:00.859] seven months, and we became friends. We tied, I think, 30 or 40 fully dressed classic salmon flies.
Tom: So, that's how you started with fully dressed.
Barry: That's how I started.
Tom: Oh my God.
Barry: And then that progressed to, "Well, maybe I should start fishing with these flies."
Tom: Well, everything must have gotten easier after that.
Barry: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But it was wonderful. [01:10:30.640] It was a great introduction because he was a decent fly tyer. He was a good teacher. And he brought all the gear I needed and all the materials.
Tom: Wow. Thats amazing.
Barry: So, that was my introduction into fly tying. And it's just kind of snowballed since then. So, my whole thing here was that it was so difficult that [01:11:00.159] initial stage with fly tying, when you try to finish flies by yourself without any help, your fly-tying gear normally ends up with the golf clubs in the loft.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Barry: What I decided with the last three books I've done is I wanted to try and make learning fly tying as easier than it has ever been before [01:11:31.220] because in between these steps that we have now, there is always something going on that you don't see between one step and the next. And that makes things difficult. So, with these last books, what I've done is I've still done all the step-by-step images, and, of course, the text to explain the process. [01:12:00.699] But what the reader can also do with all the patterns and all the techniques in the book is use their mobile or their tablet or their PC to scan the QR code that's with each pattern, and then they can watch me tie each pattern and see the techniques being done one on one.
Tom: Fantastic. It's interesting that I did a... [01:12:31.079] I also did a how-to book, taking your fly fishing to the next level that I used QR codes to include videos on reading the water and reach cast and things like that. And I'm surprised more people don't use those these days in fly-tying and fishing books. So, it's brilliant of you to do that.
Barry: I thought that they started using them in cookbooks now.
Tom: Interesting. Yeah.
Barry: How to make a mole. [01:13:00.014] And you just scan the code and you're there doing it. I mean, it's such a resource. I mean, everything is out there now, every single fly pattern Imaginable and a million more. But it's good to get background information.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's still nice to have a book to study when you're tying.
Barry: Absolutely. And I love that with fly tyers. [01:13:30.020] They still buy books.
Tom: Yeah, they do.
Barry: I mean, the first book in this series, just in English, has sold over 10,000 copies now, which I'm very pleased with because it just reinforces that there is still a market for them.
Tom: Yes. They're like cookbooks. Cookbooks still sell. Fly-tying books are kind of like cookbooks. [01:14:00.643]
Barry: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, recipes don't get old, do they?
Tom: No, they don't. They sure don't. So, Barry, you fish in the States as well, in North America. What in your view has been the biggest European influence on American fly-tying?
Barry: Gee, [01:14:30.199] yeah, what could that be? I wouldn't dare say boobies and mop flies.
Tom: Did mop flies start in Europe?
Barry: Actually, I don't know anything about them, just that they're as ugly as hell.
Tom: They weren't, though.
Barry: I wouldn't even... Yeah, no, definitely not. No, [01:15:00.359] no, brown trouts with any kind of pride would take one.
Tom: Oh, yeah? I've got news for you.
Barry: Oh, yeah. I'm a bit of a traditional [crosstalk 01:15:15.043].
Tom: How about worms? Do you fish worm flies?
Barry: Absolutely.
Tom: Yeah. Okay. Well, how much different is a worm than a mop?
Barry: Well, my worms are probably more difficult to [01:15:30.159] tie than the fully dressed classic salmon fly. So, this is one of the patterns that I'll be demonstrating at the symposium in November. It's a very difficult fly to tie. You have to be shown how to tie it.
Tom: Really?
Tom: If you can think of about a cinder worm or a regular earthworm made out of shanks. [01:16:00.380] So, you have this long thing that is not very articulated at all because it's very jerky, very heavy. But I make this by spinning eight loops of fur or marabou into dubbing loops and then making a ferrule out of them. So, it's completely mobile. It's just floppy [01:16:30.439] when you fish it. And there's several places that have actually banned it. You can catch any fish, will take it anywhere. And they all eat worms.
Tom: Yeah. Or you could just use a squirmy material.
Barry: Well, if that's what you were thinking about when you said, "Do I use worms?" If it was a squirmy worm, I have used them for fishing grayling, and they are seriously effective. [01:17:02.359] They don't last very long, do they?
Tom: No, they don't. Even sitting in a fly box, you have to...
Barry: They deteriorate and... Yeah.
Tom: You have to re-tie them every year. It's a pain in the butt.
Barry: If somebody wants to tie mops and squirmies and blobs and boobies, I'm very pleased that they're tying flies. But I don't do that [01:17:30.140] kind of stuff. And it's not because I'm a fly-tying snob. It's because I just don't like tying that kind of thing.
Tom: Yeah, we fish the way we want, and we tie the way we want, right? And we shouldn't let anyone...
Barry: I don't know if you know the Japanese fly tyer, Kenichiro Sawada.
Tom: I don't know. I'm familiar with his work.
Barry: I mean, his fly-tying is phenomenal. [01:18:00.659] It can't be surpassed for his classic salmon flies. And I asked Ken, "Why don't you tie nymphs?" And he said... Sorry, I asked him if there was any fly he didn't tie, and he said, "Nymphs." And I asked him why, and he said, "Because they are ugly." So, we all have our own niches [01:18:30.020] and preferences.
Tom: Yeah, we sure do. What are your favorite type of flies to tie, Barry? Just for pleasure, what do you enjoy tying? People ask me that all the time, and I don't really have an answer, but maybe you do.
Barry: Dry flies and generally dry flies that are made from deer hair.
Tom: From deer hair. Okay. So, humpies and irresistibles and things like that.
Barry: Humpies, irresistibles, streaking [01:19:00.140] caddis, yeah, all that kind of stuff. There's something about mastering those techniques so they are perfect. My LCD, which I have in fly tying, leans very much towards perfection, although the flies I fish with are [01:19:30.992] a good deal, scruffier.
Tom: I want to ask you, are there any...? We've gotten a lot of interesting and fabulous techniques and materials from Europe. Of course, European nymphs, the heavy weighted, what we call Euro nymphs, jigs, CDC, Coq de Leon. [01:20:00.727] What is being used over there in Europe that you don't think Americans have been exposed to yet?
Barry: Chamois.
Tom: Chamois, okay. Leather.
Barry: No, no. The fur from the chamois goat. It's very much like deer hair in [01:20:30.319] texture and... But it's much longer, generally speaking. It's much more unruly. So, it makes scruffy flies, but they fish phenomenally.
Tom: Now, are you using it for streamers or using it for dry...?
Barry: Dry flies.
Tom: Dry flies.
Barry: But you can use it for streamers as well, as you [01:21:00.079] would bucktails, I guess.
Tom: Chamois.
Barry: It doesn't flare as much as deer hair. You can't really pack it and trim it like deer hair. But you can use it for hackles, and wings, and bodies, and legs. The Italians use it all the time. Their flies are really, really scruffy, but have this wonderful aestheticism [01:21:30.979] to them. They're beautifully aesthetic, but still scruffy.
Tom: I wonder if we can import that in the States because certain wildlife... I wonder if we can buy it from Europe and...
Barry: I think it comes from the Alps, French or German or Italian Alps. I guess the chamois is all over there. [01:22:00.300] It takes to dying very well, but they generally dye in very natural colors, beiges, olives, browns, tans. That's what it's most available from. There's a shop that specializes in it, which is 54 Dean Street in Italy.
Tom: Oh, I've seen that online, yeah.
Barry: And if you're wondering why a shop is called 54 Dean Street, [01:22:30.159] 54 Dean Street was Blacker's shop in Palmdale, London, in the early turn of the century.
Tom: I'm writing that down. I'm going to see if I can get some of that chamois. You know how flies are.
Barry: It's good stuff, and it floats extremely well.
Tom: It's interesting because I've played over the years with reindeer and caribou [01:23:00.140] and other hairs, and I've never found them to be that good. I thought reindeer would be great.
Barry: They're very brittle, caribou and reindeer.
Tom: Yeah, that's what I found. They were too brittle to be useful.
Barry: But the chamois isn't. It's a nice material to work with as well. What else could there be?
Tom: Yeah. What other patterns or materials are there over there that you don't think we've seen yet?
Barry: Well, [01:23:30.560] it's mostly synthetics, I guess. I mean, there's 10 new synthetics that come every single week, just about. And I think they just have somebody online searching in China and India for finding anything that could perhaps resemble a fly-tying material and buying it in bulk. I'm not too keen on that. I enjoy mixing [01:24:00.359] synthetics with natural materials. You can get some very nice effects with ice dubbing and with CDC and beadheads, of course, which were very interesting. It's not so long ago they started tying with them in Germany, Roman Moser. But they've also developed... I know you can get these [01:24:30.340] beadheads that have small facets on them and you've got beadheads that are shaped like bullets, beadheads that are off-shaped. So, there are people out there that are constantly looking to make old things new, which is...I mean, it's not a bad thing, but a lot of it, I think, is reinventing the wheel.
Tom: Certainly is, certainly is. There's so much cross-pollination. I mean, [01:25:00.464] I remember seeing Roman Moser's video first time I saw beadheads, and it was all in German, so I didn't understand. I should be able to speak German, given my name, but I can't. But I saw these beads and thought that they looked interesting.
Barry: Yeah, I mean, that's absolutely international now. Everybody's using them. Yeah. But [01:25:30.220] that's lovely how this crossover of all these techniques...and like the Gallo de Leon from Northern Spain. This Gallo de Leon was without doubt the first material that was bred specifically for tying flies. You know, [01:26:00.119] they'd been breeding them for tying flies for 400 years.
Tom: Four hundred years. No kidding.
Barry: Yeah, or thereabouts. And you can't compare anything. I don't know if you've actually handled some Coq de Leon from a verified breeder in Northern Spain. But you can't compare [01:26:30.100] it with anything else that they call Coq de Leon.
Tom: No, Orvis used to import that from him. And I luckily saved a bunch of the packets. And I treasure them because they've tried to do that in the States here, some of the hackle growers, and it doesn't look the same.
Barry: No, absolutely. It's not the same. And they say it's [01:27:00.199] because of...well, of course, it's a multiple factors, but climate and very chalk-rich ground.
Tom: Don't you wish that that coloration came in small hackles that you could tie small dry flies in?
Barry: Oh, it does.
Tom: It does?
Barry: But they are the unicorn of hackle.
Tom: So, you can get a whole cape with [01:27:30.100] that coloration? I've never seen it before.
Barry: Well, they don't do capes. They do not kill the birds. The birds are never killed.
Tom: Oh, but you can get smaller...
Barry: They pluck these feathers. So, the birds are plucked twice a year, normally, in the spring and in the winter, I believe. And they only take a few feathers from each bird.
Tom: Now, I understand that that operation is closing down. [01:28:00.000] Is that true that that guy is not going to breed them anymore?
Barry: Although there are a few qualified breeders.
Tom: Oh, there are, okay.
Barry: I'm not sure who you're referring to, but, I mean, these are...and they regard themselves, and quite rightly so, as stewards of continuing this legacy.
Tom: Oh, so we will continue to be able to get...
Barry: Again, 54 Dean Street have it, [01:28:30.472] the real deal from Javier Escanciano. Yeah. I mean, this is the real deal. It's expensive. I guess it's $10 for five feathers or something. But if you're using it for tails and wings, it's phenomenal. This [01:29:00.239] area in Spain, they were making flies just from local silk and the hackle of Coq de Leon. And nobody knew about that until very, very recently. You know, we're only talking about maybe 10 or 15 years ago. This was like a thing unique to the Northern Spain, but now, like the CDC was unique to Switzerland. And [01:29:30.960] all this is now amalgamated in this great big fly-tying cooking pot.
Tom: Yeah. God, there's always just so much to learn, isn't there, from different regions?
Barry: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Tom: That's why we love fly tying. I think there's always...
Barry: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tom: And it's encouraging to hear that there are still some natural materials out there that aren't widely known, like the chamois, which I am going to try [01:30:00.140] to order as soon as I get off the phone here.
Barry: Yeah, you won't be disappointed. As I said, it's a little bit challenging to use when you start because it kind of resembles...the nearest thing I can think of that it resembles is the mane from a red deer or an elk, [01:30:30.560] but it's finer. But it's unruly, it's scruffy. All the hairs are not lying in the right direction. But it floats well and it looks great.
Tom: Okay. I'm going to try it.
Barry: Good. Are you doing the symposium this year?
Tom: No, I'm not. I'm going to pass on it this year. I have some travel that's going to preclude me from going. So, unfortunately...
Barry: Well, I'm going to fish after the day after the symposium. [01:31:00.159] I'm going to try and fish for stripers.
Tom: Oh, great. Well, it's a good time of year in that part of the world to fish for stripers. Some big ones, too.
Barry: Yeah, I'm going out with Chuck and a captain who knows exactly where the fish are.
Tom: Oh, great. Well, that should be it. Have you ever caught striped bass before?
Barry: Never fished them before.
Tom: Now, in Europe, I know that you have a sea bass. I don't know if you have it in Norway, but I know in the UK a sea [01:31:30.000] bass, which looks almost exactly like a striped bass and seems to behave like a striped bass. I'm sure there are...
Barry: It doesn't have the stripes.
Tom: Oh, it doesn't have the stripes. Okay.
Barry: But otherwise, the profile, the shape, the color looks just like a striped...
Tom: Yeah, yeah. And they seem to behave like a striped bass as well. And that's become popular.
Barry: And if you're...
Tom: Sorry.
Barry: If you're buying bass in a restaurant, it's normally our sea bass, the European sea [01:32:00.020] bass.
Tom: Okay. And that's become quite popular with the fly rod, hasn't it?
Barry: Yes, absolutely. They arrived in Norway 15 years ago when that was the first one was ever caught here. And now, we're catching bonito in the sea.
Tom: Oh my God.
Barry: And the bonito are coming for the mackerel, and we've got bluefin tuna coming after the bonito.
Tom: Now, is that Atlantic bonito that you're the ones [01:32:30.079] with the stripes?
Barry: I'm not quite sure. I'm not quite sure. But these are all new species because of the changing the climate and the temperature of the sea.
Tom: Yeah, they've caught, I think, two tarpon off Cape Cod this year, which is crazy.
Barry: Yeah. Well, the salmon fishers on the West Coast here in the big rivers like Namsen and Otra, they've been catching [01:33:00.279] swordfish...
Tom: Oh my God.
Barry: ...in the river.
Tom: Wow. In the river?
Barry: In the river while fishing salmon.
Tom: Oh my God.
Barry: So, I mean, things are not quite right or how they should be.
Tom: No, they sure aren't. Things are changing. Well, Barry, this has been really fun and fascinating. And I want to thank you for taking the time today and sharing your [01:33:30.920] knowledge with us. It's been great.
Barry: It's been fun chatting, and we've not really been too technical.
Tom: No, we got a little geeky on the fly-tying materials. And anytime two fly tyers talk, they get that way.
Barry: Oh, yeah. So, there is a most definitely a very high nerd factor.
Tom: Yeah, yeah. When Tim Flagler and I do one of these podcasts, of course, we go off on crazy tangents, too. So, it's been really fun talking to you.
Barry: [01:34:00.579] It's been great. It's been good fun.
Tom: All right, Barry. We've been talking to Barry Ord Clarke, originally from the UK, now in Norway. And Barry has a new book coming out in February in the States. And can you give me the title again, Barry?
Barry: Yeah. It's "The Feather Benders Advanced Flytying Techniques." And it's published in the UK by Merlin Unwin. And it will be published in February in [01:34:30.399] the States by Skyhorse Publishing.
Tom: Skyhorse. Good. Okay. And, of course, you have other books out there, and you have your YouTube channel.
Barry: This is book 16.
Tom: Sixteen. Wow.
Barry: Yeah.
Tom: Do you have your own website as well as a YouTube channel?
Barry: Yeah. It's the same name as the YouTube channel, The Feather Bender.
Tom: The Feather Bender. Okay. So, people want to look you up, there [01:35:00.380] they go.
Barry: Great stuff, Tom.
Tom: Okay, Barry. Thanks again.
Barry: Yeah. Well, thanks for having me.
Tom: All righty.
Barry: Take care, mate.
Tom: Bye-bye.
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at