So, You Want a Job in the Fly-Fishing Industry? With Kirk Deeter
Podcast Transcript:
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Tom Rosenbauer: Hi and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And the title of this week's podcast is, So You Want a Job in the Fly Fishing Industry? And my guest is Kirk Deeter. Kirk is an old friend, fishing buddy. Kirk is [00:00:30.003] the ultimate industry insider. Kirk started the trade publication, "Angling Trade," for the fly fishing industry. He's written for "Field & Stream," and lots of other publications. He's currently with "Trout Unlimited," as the editor of "Trout Magazine." And Kirk's been around the block, and so he understands this tiny little niche industry really well, and I thought [00:01:00.189] he would be a good person to interview.
I get a lot of questions from people, you know, some from young people who want to start out in the fly fishing industry, some older people who are tired of a corporate job, and a corporate job in another industry, and want to get into the fly fishing business because they love it so much. So we're going to give you some advice, and some of the pitfalls of trying to find a job in the fly fishing [00:01:30.270] industry. So hope you enjoy it.
But first, we're going to do The Fly Box. The Fly Box is where you ask questions, or comment on things, or suggest a tip for other listeners, and I try to answer them, or share your tip. And I think it's what makes the podcast. A lot of you tell me that The Fly Box is your favorite part. I never thought that it would become the favorite part, but it has for a lot of people. [00:02:00.177] And I think that a lot of people have similar problems to the questions I get, and so a lot of you benefit from the answers. At least I hope you do.
And you can send me a question at
So here we go. The first one is an email from Hugo, from Washington State. "As always, thank you for all you do for the sport. This podcast has been a joy to listen to, and as many have expressed, The Fly Box has been my favorite portion of the pod at times, though I do enjoy the guest at times as well.
Now to my question. [00:03:30.018] I recently came across some CDC feathers from a hunting buddy of mine, and I'm curious as to how I should treat these feathers? I intend to use them for nymphs, and the forums I've come across post contradicting recommendations. Do I wash them of their oils, or try tying them on as they are? If I wash them, how do I go about doing that?
Thanks for considering my question, and I hope to hear from you soon."
Well Hugo, that's a great question, and it comes up [00:04:00.043] frequently. First of all, CDC oil is, in my opinion, snake oil. CDC oil is about as effective in floating things as olive oil would be, or butter. I don't think it adds much flotation. CDC floats because of the way it...it's the way the little tiny, tiny, tiny fibers vibrate [00:04:30.017] and twitch in any little breeze or any little movement, so they really make something look lifelike. And I always thought that it was silly to put CDC on nymphs, because we use CDC to float flies, right? But there have been many very, very effective nymphs that use CDC as a hackle because just as with a dry fly, those little movements underwater trap air bubbles, and move with the current, and make [00:05:00.301] the thing look alive.
So I don't think you need to wash those CDC feathers. I never do, and I don't know how you would... I mean you could wash them in soap and warm water, and then maybe put them in a pillowcase or something else that you can seal up, and put them in your dryer. But honestly, I don't think it's worth it. I'm a duck hunter, and when I get CDC, I just pluck them from the bird, and put [00:05:30.136] them in a ziplock bag as is.
You know, if you have blood on them, or if there's blood or something, or dirt on them, you might want to wash them. But it wouldn't be an easy process, and I don't think you need to do it. I think you need to just, as long as they're clean, I think you just need to put them in a bag, seal it up, just in case there's any bugs in there that might migrate to your other fly tying materials, and have at it. That's what I'd do.
Jake: Hey Tom, it's round two, [00:06:00.516] because the first time I went on too dang long.
Thank you very much for everything. I wasn't going to do that, but you know what? I appreciate you. And the reason I appreciate you is that I have struggled, like many others, with some serious mental health stuff, and your podcasts, through my workday, have kept me out of the hospital, kept me out of dark places, and it's given me the motivation to appreciate and do more of what I love, which is fly fishing and fly tying. [00:06:30.522]
What I wanted to ask though, on that note, is that I mainly fish in British Columbia, which we're a single-fly outfit. That's all you're allowed, single hook. But with your learning experience, and time spent, and beautiful fellers like George Daniel and whomever, how does one deal with faster water or [00:07:00.217] such with single-fly outfits? Like in the Cowichan, Cowi on Vancouver Island, hey, we can name drop that because everybody knows about that, you've got to get down and you've got to get contact with a single fly. I know it seems simple, throwing a bigger bead, throwing some lead, but I've listened to the Troutman fellers, Dom and them, and again they're multi-fly outfits or rigs, [00:07:30.071] typically, and I was just wondering if you've had to fish in our area, or areas like that in the States, I don't know the States that well, where you do have to run a single fly? Or maybe it's fly only, and as Canadian standards state, that means no added split shot.
Anyways, any information would be great. Take care, friend. Goodbye.
Tom Rosenbauer: Well, Jake, thank you very much for your kind words. And it pleases me to no end to hear [00:08:00.272] that The Fly Box has a positive influence on some people's lives, and I really appreciate that.
Regarding your question, split shot is the obvious answer, although most of us hate it. It causes tangles, it's clunky, and it doesn't allow you to really feel a strike as well, and I don't... I think the way you described it is you can't use split shot. So [00:08:30.242] the best way to do it is to is to learn from the Euro nymphing community, or the the competitive community in that you need to use a long, thin tippet. A heavy tippet has water resistance, and it prevents your nymph from sinking. So if you can just drop even a lightly weighted nymph in the water without a tippet on it, you'll see that it sinks pretty quickly, just like a little stone. [00:09:00.078] And so anything you have on there that impedes that sink rate is going to keep it from getting down.
So you want it to be long and thin, your tippet to be long and thin, and what I suggest you do, because, you know, a thinner tippet isn't as strong, is that Scientific Angler's Absolute Fluorocarbon Supreme, that stuff is very expensive, it's like $30 a spool, [00:09:30.231] but it's absolutely the strongest tippet material I've ever used. So I would use a long, thin tippet, as thin as you can get away with, probably at least 5X, and maybe 6X, you know, a nymph with as much weight as you can get on it without making the nymph look unnatural or clunky. And then using a tuck cast, if you don't know how to do a tuck cast, you can go online and see how to do that, but it's [00:10:00.107] basically stopping your rod high and abruptly, and letting that nymph clunk into the water, and it drives it down into the water, and then angle your cast as much upstream as you can. The more you angle your cast upstream, the better your nymph is going to sink.
You know, obviously, this is a great situation for using a Euro nymphing style, with [00:10:30.150] a long rod, a long, long leader, and short casts. But you can also do the same thing with indicator fishing, or even dry dropper, by using a long, long, long, thin tippet. As long as you can get away with, you know, at least as deep as the water is, maybe a little deeper than the water is. You need that tippet to be long and thin.
Your other option, [00:11:00.111] since you can't use two flies is to try swinging your nymphs with a sinking line that gets down, or up or a poly leader. It's not going to be as effective as dead drifting a nymph, but there are times when fish will take a swinging nymph or wet fly, so you can also try that. But I would go with long, thin tippet, upstream cast, and a tuck cast, and hopefully you'll be able to get down to those fish.
Here's an email from Martin. "Greetings [00:11:30.087] from Tasmania, Australia. I've been listening to your podcast for quite a few years now, and would like to comment on The Fly Box section. A lot of the questions could be answered, 'Why don't you give it a go and find out?' It seems people want to be spoon-fed solutions rather than learning the old-fashioned way, trial and error. I appreciate fishing time is precious, and sometimes limited, but great insights, whether fish, tackle, or flies, can be garnered by just giving it a go, and experimenting. [00:12:00.244]
Anyway, more a comment than a question, but with that mindset I have learned many fishing lessons, and gained much satisfaction through satisfying my natural curiosity, and improving results on the water. I hope you keep up the good work on the podcast for many years to come."
Well, thank you, Martin. And you know, sometimes I think that, well, why don't you just go out and try it? But again, as you stated, people have limited time, and sometimes they don't really have time to experiment, and they want to be prepared for when they go [00:12:30.201] out there. And yeah, a lot of these questions could be answered, certainly, by experimentation, but you know, I try to help wherever I can, and if I can help somebody with a shortcut that will allow them more time on the water to have fun, then I'll do it.
Here is a spooky Halloween tip from Jason. "It was a hot and hazy morning, unfit for any life. The sun-baked goose poop [00:13:00.076] cracked beneath my waffle-soled shoes. I circled the concrete rim pond like a vulture, an opportunistic hunter. That's when I heard it, the distinct squeak of a rusty old grocery cart. A hunched figure cloaked in black pushed the cart as a funeral procession of birds began to follow both in the sky and on land, approaching the water. A pale, skeletal hand dug into the basket, and tossed stale, crusty [00:13:30.289] offerings into the murky depths, erupting into a feeding frenzy of birds. As beaks gnashed, bone-fisted handfuls of bread flew until the great spectacle began. Now the water erupted from below like a witch's cauldron as giant scaly beasts fought both each other and the birds.
I flung a clump of deer hair lashed to a hook into the bubbling chaos, casting my spell upon the beasts [00:14:00.078] as their rubbery lips fought to engulf my fly. I swung the rod, and pierced the hook deep into the creature's thick rubbery lips. A loud zzzzzz sang as the line screamed off my reel. Instantly, my red backing peeled away like an artery hemorrhaging. I battled the beast back and forth, thwarting its attempts to wrap me around a graveyard of sunken shopping carts and electric scooters. After an angry fight, I drew [00:14:30.077] the monster in close, and saw its entire gargantuan body. Its eyes stared back at me as I slid my net in to capture the golden demon from its underworld.
Then it happened. With a powerful thrash of its tail, it stabbed back into the depths, and silence. My line settled. The rod relaxed, and an unsettling stillness filled the air. My cheap hook had broken. [00:15:00.127] A wave of terror washed over me, an unshakable feeling that I would never escape. I saved a few bucks on hooks, but lost the angriest leviathan from hell.
When you make a deal with the devil, it can be hell. Please learn from this tale of terror. Check your dots, tie on quality hooks, and buy quality flies."
Well, thank you, Jason. That was fun. That was a fun story, and fun to read, and appropriate for this week. [00:15:30.811]
Bill: Hello, Tom. This is Bill, from Wisconsin, and I spend a fair amount of time traveling to some saltwater locations in Washington State and Florida. I fish the Puget Sound near Seattle, and also the beaches in the panhandle of Florida, on the Gulf Coast.
My question is, I have [00:16:00.304] some trouble getting some good distance casting. My go-to rod is an 8-weight 9-foot rod, and I like to use an intermediate line, and I also like to use Clouser minnows, so presents some challenges in places like the Puget Sound. We have steeply banked beaches, with rock, and I'm catching the rocks on my my back cast a lot. So my question is, does it make sense to [00:16:30.288] seek, like, a 12-foot 8-weight, or you know, a 10-foot 8-weight rod that will keep that fly line in the air, and possibly help my casting distance in those situations where I might be hitting the beach on my back cast, or I might just want some distance when I'm wading in salt water on the beaches of Florida?
So I'm interested in your thoughts on that. [00:17:00.027] And you do a great job with the podcast, and I love listening to it. I learn a lot, and love your guests. Thank you.
Tom Rosenbauer: Well Bill, I think that a longer rod makes sense. You're going to keep your back cast a little bit higher, and it's going to keep that Clouser a little further away from your body. Also, you know, a shorter, stiffer leader will help. That will help turn over that Clouser. And you know, casting practice. [00:17:30.155] Learn to do the Belgian cast, which won't prevent you from ticking the rocks behind you, but will keep that Clouser minnow away from your head. And so, you know, learning to keep that back cast high, and keeping it away from your head is a good idea.
You know, another thing, another thing that I might suggest is, I know you love Clouser minnows, but try some unweighted flies. You know, gravity [00:18:00.016] is going to be less of a problem on your back cast. That Clouser minnow is going to tend to dip down, no matter what you do. They're hard to cast. And you know, something like a Deceiver, or a less heavily weighted fly than a Clouser is going to also keep you out of trouble. And if you can't get that fly deep enough, you know, try a sinking line, like a Depth Charge line, to get the fly down.
So those are my suggestions, but you know... And also, [00:18:30.020] obviously, you've probably done this, but try a different angle to see if you can stay away from those rocks behind you. And you know, don't forget, that longer rod's only going to give you a foot, or a couple feet more on your back cast. So you may have to do other things to keep that fly in the air.
Here's an email from Ian, from Bucks County, Pennsylvania. "I wanted to start with the obligatory nod to you in the podcast. This podcast truly is the best fly fishing pod out there, [00:19:00.668] and has been an amazing source of knowledge for me in the few years since I made the switch from conventional to fly fishing. I appreciate your down to earth and non-judgmental demeanor that you don't always find elsewhere.
On to my question. I fish mostly in eastern Pennsylvania, on heavily pressured limestone and sometimes freestone streams. With these conditions, I generally start with a 6X tippet for dry fly presentations, since the trout are very picky, and flies are usually in the size [00:19:30.233] 18 to 24 range. My issue arises when I occasionally use larger flies, like a size 12 slate drake, March Brown, or Stimulators. When casting these large flies, the flies tend to spin and twist up my tippet, which creates a mess, and compromises the strength. I've tried false casting less, and using more roll casts, which has helped a little, but the issue still persists.
Do you have any tips or suggestions to prevent this? Do I need to just use larger tippet, [00:20:00.255] even if it affects the presentation? Is there a different casting technique to use?"
Well, Ian, there really isn't a different casting technique to use. You've got to go to a heavier tippet. There's really no way around that. A 6X tippet on a size 12 dry fly is going to spin, it's going to twist, and it's going to be tough to cast. So you can take heart in the fact that if you put a 4X or 5X tippet [00:20:30.233] on that size 12 fly, the fly itself being larger is going to have a little bit more resistance to drag because it's got more...it's got more surface area pinioned in the surface film. And so the heavier tippet is not going to create so much of a problem on a larger dry fly. So yeah, I would just keep your casts short, and go to a larger tippet, minimize your false [00:21:00.238] casting, and you should be fine.
Here's an email from Adam. "I love hopper fishing. What's Orvis's best hopper rod for western rivers when a slight wind kicks up?" That's short, and to the point.
Well, Adam, you know, I use a 5 or 6-weight. In that situation, I think a 5 is fine, a 6 might be a little better. It depends on how far you're going to cast, and how comfortable you are casting [00:21:30.281] in the wind, and how much practice you've had casting in the wind. When I'm fishing in the Western United States, I generally use a 5-weight for almost everything, a 9-foot 5-weight, and it doesn't present any problems fishing even large hoppers. You may want to go to a slightly heavier tippet, and maybe a shorter leader with really big foam flies, but a 5 will work.
When I go to Chile, which is [00:22:00.018] a lot windier than the Western United States on most days, then I'll either use a 6 or a 7 for fishing hoppers. But the fish in Chile are not as sophisticated, and they're not as spooky as heavily pressured American trout, so I can get away with a 6 or a 7. But I would say for around here, in the United States, a 5 or a 6 will work just fine.
Here's an email from Corey. [00:22:30.039] "As retirement quickly approaches, thankfully, I wanted to find another hobby to occupy my time, other than golf, so I turned to fly fishing. I've never really fished much at all, and have never fly fished before this year. I've spent many hours on the Orvis Learning site, watching videos, reading articles, and listening to your podcast. I've taught myself how to fly fish, and I've found great success fishing for wild trout on my local tailwater here in Maryland, and in Pennsylvania.
I purchased a few different Orvis rods at various [00:23:00.171] lengths and weights to pursue my newfound passion. After many searches across your site and others, I haven't been able to find much info on rod storage and maintenance. Since I live so close to where I fish, and I usually fish three to four times a week, I have been leaving all my rods lined and set up at my house. I hang them on my garage wall, rigged and ready to just grab one, throw in the car, and hit the stream. Is this okay to keep rods this way? What about ferrule waxing? Should I be breaking down my rods, and applying this [00:23:30.290] wax? Does it hurt the rod at all to leave it lined for months at a time? I only fish fresh water, so saltwater isn't a concern.
I appreciate your time, and owe my early trout fishing success to you, and the Orvis channel."
Well, thank you very much. Yeah, the reason you don't find much information on rod maintenance is you don't need to do much, if anything. Besides not putting your rod away wet, there isn't much you can do to hurt a rod. [00:24:00.196] You can leave them strung up. I've had rods that were strung up for years, and left outside, and it didn't hurt them a bit, other than the cork got a little bleached. So yeah, I leave my own rods strung up, and in my truck, and in hot weather and cold weather, and have never had a problem with the rod getting any kind of bend or set or anything else in it.
Now, bamboo rods are different. You do want to [00:24:30.011] put your bamboo rods away, if you have any, after you fish them, because they can take a set. They can take a permanent curve in them. But graphite rods, fiberglass rods, nah, you don't have to worry about it.
And regarding waxing the ferrules, you only want to wax your ferrules if your ferrules start to get loose. Sometimes, certain rods, mainly older rods, over time the ferrule can loosen just from wear, and putting a little wax on there helps [00:25:00.063] them stick together. But if you're not having any problems with your rod sections coming apart when you fish, then I wouldn't bother putting any ferrule wax on them until that becomes a problem. So really, those rods are nearly maintenance-free, and what you're doing is just fine. You don't need to worry about it.
Here's an email from Tom. "Greetings from New Mexico. I have a somewhat tricky location where I want to fish downstream about 40 feet or so, [00:25:30.338] but since the pond is covered with weeds and algae, there is no possibility of approaching from the side or from below without a small kayak or canoe. Yesterday, the fish were taking small dry flies like ants, and I did manage to hook several with my barbless hooks. I did notice that trout would sometimes chase the dry fly a foot or so after I attempted a gentle hook set. They were feeding on the lower side of the run, so I was unable to do a sideways hook set. Any ideas?"
Well, [00:26:00.342] Tom, you know, fishing downstream is tricky, and you're going to have less successful hook sets when you're fishing downstream, no doubt about it. You know, You're pulling straight up, and you're either pulling the fly out of a fish's mouth, or you're putting it, you know, just barely on the lip of a fish, and they will get it off. And there isn't any real good thing, other than don't set the hook too hard, [00:26:30.077] and wait a little bit. Just pause a little bit, until the fish turns with the fly, and then maybe you can get the fly stuck in the side of their mouth instead of in front of them.
But setting the hook sideways doesn't really do any good because if you put your line in the water, and let it drift downstream, and set the hook sideways, you'll see that the line just shoots straight upstream no matter what you do, unless you're on a really, really short [00:27:00.525] cast. So that kind of tricky setting the hook sideways isn't going to do you that much good. So I would say just be a little more patient, let the fish take the fly. But other than that, you're going to lose more fish fishing downstream.
Here's an email from Mark. "I've been fly fishing for 40 years, and have never pursued trout. In my pursuit of bass and panfish, I've never used the tapered leader, nor am I knowledgeable about leader thicknesses. I've always used [00:27:30.202] 4-pound monofilament for panfish, and 6 or 8-pound for bass. Am I missing something by not using tapered leaders? Do tapered leaders provide a better presentation than level monofilament line? What will I gain if I choose to use tapered leaders? P.S. I have never been dissatisfied with my use of mono."
Well, Mark, if you haven't been dissatisfied with your use of mono, then keep using it. What a tapered leader is going to do for you is to straighten a little bit [00:28:00.169] better on your cast, and it's going to make your casts a little bit more accurate. So you know, when you're trying to put a bug right on the edge of a weed bed or a log, a tapered leader is going to give you a little bit more precision in putting that fly where you want it. You know, in bass and panfish, that's about the only advantage. And you can get away with level monofilament leaders on bass and panfish [00:28:30.582] often. The only thing you're going to sacrifice is a little bit of accuracy.
Zach: Hey, Tom. Zach here, from Phoenix, Arizona, calling to see what your thoughts are on a 6-weight versus a 7-weight for expanding an arsenal up above a kind of a 5-weight all-arounder trout rod. I'm looking to expand my horizons here locally with everything from bass and suckers primarily is what I want to target, but also would be interested in getting into some of the local carp game we've got going on. And just curious your thoughts on a 6-weight [00:29:00.094] versus a 7-weight, pros and cons, bass, suckers, and carp.
Tom Rosenbauer: So Zach, I can tell you what I do. I use a 7-weight for bass, carp, and suckers. I like 7-weight. If I have to cast a little bit heavier fly, I can get away with it. You know, a bigger bass bug or something like that, I can get away with it. And you know, you never know when you might tie into a really big carp or sucker. Those things can put a lot of pressure on a rod, [00:29:30.022] and it's nice to have the slightly stiffer butt section of a 7-weight to get those fish in quicker. So my advice, if you're just going to fish for those three species, would be to go to a 7-weight.
We're going to end with an email instead of a phone call this week. I know, big...I'm really stepping out here. Here's an email from David, from Atlanta. "Love the podcast. I learn so much from you and your guests. Here's a follow-up question to a topic that you and I [00:30:00.105] had previously discussed via Instagram. I know about the divide by three guideline for choosing the right leader weight stiffness for a given size fly. Throwing a number 12 fly, 12 divided by 3 equals 4X leader, and so forth. If you try and throw a number 12 fly on a 6X leader, the leader tippet fly won't properly turn over on casting.
So my question is this. Why not simply attach a 2X, or even a 1X leader for all of our fly fishing? [00:30:30.854] That way, we can throw tiny number 24 Mayflies or midges, or big wind resistant number 4 Chubby Chernobyls without having to change leaders."
Well, David, I'm not going to tell you that anything in fly fishing is wrong, because we all do it the way we want to do it, and we shouldn't worry about what other people say. However, I'm going to suggest that that's not a good idea, and here's why. [00:31:00.462] First of all, I don't think you're going to be able to put a 2X tippet through the eye of a size 24 fly. You probably will have trouble putting it through an eye of a size 16 fly, unless it's one of those big-eye hooks. So that's going to be one problem, you're just not going to get it through the eye. The other issue is that when you're fishing a smaller fly, whether [00:31:30.167] it's a nymph or a dry fly, a 2X tippet is going to be really stiff, and it's not going to allow your fly a natural presentation.
So you know, I suppose in a perfect situation where you don't have any drag issues, you might be able to fish, if you get the tippet through the eye of a size, let's say a size 20 fly [00:32:00.233] on 2X. But anytime you have conflicting currents, which you almost always do, that size 20 fly, as I stated in the question above, is not going to have a natural drift, because it's going to be influenced by that heavier 2X tippet, and it's going to drag a lot quicker than it would on a 5X or a 6X tippet, or even a 7X tippet. So the presentation [00:32:30.134] isn't going to look natural. Also, casting, again a size 20 fly on 2X, it's going to land pretty hard on the water, and you probably don't want that with a small dry fly. 2X is denser, because it's bigger diameter than 5X or 6X, and it's going to land hard on the water. Your fly is going to make a pretty good splash on the water, so that's not going to be great for delicacy. And if you're fishing nymphs, putting that heavy tippet, [00:33:00.457] 2X or 1X, on a smaller nymph, like even a 14, is not going to allow that nymph to sink very quickly because of the air resistance of the heavier material.
So you can try it if you want, but I don't think it's going to work out very well for you. And you know, it's not actually the leader we're talking about here, it's the tippet size, right? You know, a 2X leader, you can start with a 2X... Now, if you want, you could start with a 2X leader, or a 1X leader, [00:33:30.460] and if you want to go to 5X, let's say you're starting with a 9-foot 2X leader, and you want to go to 5X, you're going to have to put in a piece of...little piece, like 6 inches, 6 to 8 inches of 3X and 4X before you tie on that 5X tippet. The knots don't hold as well when you go more than a thousandth of an inch with nylon or fluorocarbon, so you're going to have to put those little transition [00:34:00.285] sections in there to step down to the lighter tippet. So you could use a 2X leader all the time, but you're going to have to change your tippet diameter.
So I hope that's clear. It's often confusing for people, the difference between leader and tippet. And your rule of three is a good one to know, and that certainly helps, and it's going to affect both the higher end, where [00:34:30.122] you know, if your tippet is too thin, as I discussed in the question before, it's going to spin the fly, and if it's too heavy, you're not going to get a natural presentation. I don't think it's visibility so much in the tippet size. I think fish can even see 7X or 8X tippet. So it's not visibility, but I think it's allowing the fly to get a natural presentation in the water.
All right. That is The Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Kirk Deeter about getting [00:35:00.285] a job in the fly fishing industry.
Well, my guest today is my old friend and fishing buddy, and sometimes a collaborator, Kirk Deeter. Kirk, welcome to the podcast.
Kirk Deeter: Thanks, Tom. It's always great to be with you, man.
Tom Rosenbauer: And you know, it's it's hard to list all the things that you do, but you're the publisher of "Angling Trade" magazine, right, which is fly fishing's [00:35:30.259] trade magazine.
Kirk Deeter: Yep.
Tom Rosenbauer: And you are editor of "Trout Magazine."
Kirk Deeter: That's right.
Tom Rosenbauer: And what's your title at "Trout Unlimited?"
Kirk Deeter: I'm the editorial director, and the vice president of angling for "Trout Unlimited."
Tom Rosenbauer: Right. Okay. And then you have a new project called "Flylab", is it?
Kirk Deeter: That's right. "Flylab" is [00:36:00.244] something I've launched with Tim Romano and Andrew Steketee, and it basically focuses on product reviews. Having been in the industry for such a long time, we're not advertiser-supported, it's not affiliate, you know, referrals back to the manufacturer stuff, so I get to take the gloves off and say exactly what I think about different products now. And we've got other pros doing the same thing otherwise, Tim and Andrew and others, and it's kind of been liberating, [00:36:30.310] and fun. And we do a newsletter that comes out, it's free...
Tom Rosenbauer: Yep.
Kirk Deeter: And people can go to flylab.fish, and you can sign up, and it costs you nothing, and you can see what we're up to there.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yep. And you're also a book author yourself, you're a freelance writer...God, what else do you do? You're a dad, a husband, an angler, you row a drift boat. Kirk, you do everything.
Kirk Deeter: Well, I try to. [00:37:00.479] Many things fare not spectacularly.
Tom Rosenbauer: I don't know. I don't know, there are some things you do pretty spectacularly.
Anyway, what we want to talk about today is getting a job in the fly fishing industry. I get at least three emails a week in the podcast mailbox where somebody, usually it's somebody in their [00:37:30.205] 30s or 40s, and they're in an industry that they really don't like, you know, they don't like what they're doing, and they want to pursue their passion, which is admirable, you know? They want to do something that they love, and they ask me for advice. And I'm probably not a good person to ask for advice because I started in a retail store 50 years ago, and got lucky over the years. Everybody looks at my job, [00:38:00.434] saying oh, my God, this guy has, you know, got the best job in the world. Which maybe that's true, but you know, I've been there a long time. And so it's difficult for me to answer those questions. I mean, I know the industry well, but still, I can't use my own experience.
So you know, you having been in the industry almost as long, and you know, publishing "Angling Trade" [00:38:30.151] magazine, I think you're probably the best person in the world to talk about a career in the fly fishing business.
So shall we talk about the positives first, and then we'll get into the caveats?
Kirk Deeter: Sure. Sure. That makes perfect sense to me. Let's roll.
Tom Rosenbauer: Okay. All right. Go ahead.
Kirk Deeter: Well, you know, it's true what they say, that if you are...if you find something that you're really [00:39:00.299] happy doing, you don't really feel like you're working at all, right?
Tom Rosenbauer: Right. Yep.
Kirk Deeter: So I mean, and there's the old cliche when you talk to a guide, or someone who writes stories in the outdoors or whatever, they have the best office in the world.
Tom Rosenbauer: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Kirk Deeter: But you know, and that's all true, and I count my lucky stars every day. I've been able to fish in 29 countries around the world, write stories about it, you know? I mean, [00:39:30.206] that's a gift, and it's a blessing. I'm not, you know, super wealthy, and it's hard to make a living. You've got to have a lot of irons in the fire, you've got to try a lot of things, and you have to work hard, you know?
Writing-wise, and you know this, having written so many books yourself, that you know, for every hour that you're out on the stream, there's 10 or 12 hours that you're staring at a computer screen, or pouring through notes, [00:40:00.368] you know? And it's tough. You've got to buckle down and do it. But if you do, you find that the words pour out. Or you know, if you're an accountant, and you found a job in the industry that gets you with a company that makes a product that you like, it's really not... There's nothing tedious about working in fly fishing. And I wholeheartedly recommend it, but I would say that it's not... A, Rome isn't built in a day. It takes a long time, [00:40:30.186] a lot of effort, connections, meeting people, parlaying one small thing into the next, into the next.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: And then finding some people who give you your breaks...
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: ...and you meet people who are nice to you. And then, when you get to a spot where you can repay the favor, I think it's important to do that, too. So that's kind of where I am right now.
Tom Rosenbauer: Mm-hmm Yeah. Yeah, me too. And you know... [00:41:00.218]
Kirk Deeter: And you were always very kind to me, for example. I'm not just saying this because I'm on your podcast, but you opened doors for me. No, you opened doors for me. You said, you know, this Deeter guy, he can write. He knows his stuff. I got scoops on good angles with Orvis and otherwise, and traveled with you, and other things, and that meant a lot to me. And then, I was able to parlay that into other things.
So when you get an opportunity, I guess what I'm saying, use it.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. [00:41:30.158] And one of the real positives, I think, about the fly fishing industry is the people that are in the industry, you know? It's a nice industry. The people are...even competitors are friendly, and they help each other, they work on conservation projects together, you know? It's a great industry. And also, almost everybody knows everybody, so you know, your network is extremely important, you know? Somehow building a network, getting noticed in the fly-fishing industry I think is important.
Kirk Deeter: I couldn't agree more. I almost think of it as family, you know, when we would do the trade shows and stuff. We don't do those as much as we did before. But when you'd see everybody, it was a homecoming.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: It was a, you know, how have you been, and how are your kids, and what have you been up to, [00:42:30.107] and where have you been, and all of that. And I think we've always had each other's back, and we've... Because we share a common ideal, right?
Tom Rosenbauer: yeah.
Kirk Deeter: We like to be out in nature, and we appreciate wild places, we appreciate clean water. We appreciate the experience. We appreciate mentoring, and watching little kids' faces light up when they pull on fish, you know? Those are all good things.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: And so, you know, we're not mired in... You know, [00:43:00.049] nothing against tax law, but you know, we're not mired in sorting out issues with the IRS, you know?
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. Well, sometimes we have to, right?
Kirk Deeter: Right, right. No doubt. No doubt.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: But you know, I have a rule that there's no law against having fun and working at the same time, you know? And I think that's what we're really talking about, right?
Tom Rosenbauer: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is. So, [00:43:30.235] warnings. Let's let's go through the warnings.
Kirk Deeter: Okay. So the first one is it's not a get rich quick world.
Tom Rosenbauer: It's not a get rich ever world. Right?
Kirk Deeter: That's right, it's not a get rich ever world. You know, your wealth is your experiences, [00:44:00.308] right? I know people who work on Wall Street, and bust their butts all year, and they get four weeks off on a vacation a year, and they come out to the West for one of their weeks to fish, and that's it. And they make ten times more money than I do, but they envy me because I do that 52 weeks out of the year, right?
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah, yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: So that's my payoff, so you look at it that way. It's hard work. There's rejection. [00:44:30.149] There's hills to climb. I mean, even if a young kid loves fishing, and thinks it's all neat, you know, and he gets a job as a guide, guess what? You're going to start in the bottom of the totem pole, and you're going to do all the scut work, and you're going to have to work hard. And you know, so it's not just going fishing, you know? A lot of times the jobs and the fishing, people who have jobs in fishing fish the least. [00:45:00.173]
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. Some of them do, yeah.
Kirk Deeter: We're lucky because we get to go out and test product, and do stuff, and offer opinion, and write books and magazine stories and all that stuff. But you know, it's a lot of work.
And the other thing is, I think that it's one that you have to...it's important for me to realize that there are a lot of people [00:45:30.191] who fish, who want to work in fishing, but it's important to bring your skill, and offer something to fishing. You know what I mean? As a magazine editor, there are scads and scads of anglers who want to write stories about fishing, and there are not very many, there are some, but not like a super amount of real, legitimate writers who happen to also like fishing.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: I'm always on the hunt [00:46:00.219] for the writers. So like, if you're a writer who wants to fish, that's great. And if you're an accountant who wants to work in fishing, bring your A accounting game. If you're, you know, a lawyer who wants to apply to water law, that's great. I think that that's an important thing. There's a lot of people... There are a lot of hobbyists in the industry, and they're good people, but the ones who bring legitimate skill really separate.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah, [00:46:30.312] and that's a good point to bring up the hobbyists, because people don't realize it's a tiny industry. The fly fishing industry in its entirety is a tiny industry, and there are a lot of hobbyists, as you said, in the industry who do it for their ego. They've got a lot of money, they made a lot of money somewhere else, they buy a fly shop, or you know, they buy a drift boat company, or [00:47:00.378] they buy a fly company, whatever, a reel company, and you know, it may be bleeding money, but it's a labor of love for them, but it's not producing a lot of revenue and profit to enable them to hire people.
Kirk Deeter: That's right, Tom. In fact, some of them want to lose money, right? Because it's a write-off.
Tom Rosenbauer: I guess, yeah.
Kirk Deeter: [crosstalk 00:47:26.795] the fly shop across town, competing [00:47:30.185] with some guy who, you know, doesn't care if he makes money, that can be a sticky wicket to find yourself in.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. Yeah. And it happens. We've seen it.
Kirk Deeter: Yeah.
Tom Rosenbauer: We've seen it many times, right?
Kirk Deeter: Yeah, we've seen the industry change a lot [crosstalk 00:47:50.135]
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. How has it changed, Kirk? How would you say that the industry has changed? I get this question, too.
Kirk Deeter: Well, [00:48:00.211] you know, the evolution of you know, the digital, social media, all that stuff, you know, if we go back 35 years, you know, Facebook didn't exist, online sales...I mean, it was brick and mortar. You'd go into the fly shop, and you'd smell the head cement, and the feathers, and the blah, blah, blah, and they were iconic. My first story I ever wrote for "Field & Stream" magazine was [00:48:30.223] The World's Best Tackle Shops, you know?
Tom Rosenbauer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kirk Deeter: Because I used to hang out in those as a kid, you know? And it's changed because how information... You know, if you wanted to know what was hatching on the Bighorn River, you'd have to call somebody up, or look something up, or...you know? Now, instantaneous, boom, internet. You can figure out what's hatching, where. So how information is spread, [00:49:00.585] how products are marketed, how products are sold, the technologies, it's all evolved quite a bit, dramatically, over the last 20 to 30 years, and I think it's fueled largely by the digital age.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. I remember having to check flows on rivers by calling an automated number, instead of just tapping on my phone, you know?
Kirk Deeter: That's right. That's right.
Tom Rosenbauer: Or a lot of times you couldn't get flows, right? [00:49:30.254] I mean, unless it was a dam, unless it was a dam release operation, I don't think you could get flows on rivers from the USGS.
Kirk Deeter: That's right. And now you just pick up your phone, right?
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah/.
Kirk Deeter: Punch in the number, and I can find out exactly what the Colorado River is flowing at Catamount Bridge, you know, within 30 seconds, if I wanted to.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. Yeah. So the information certainly is great. I mean the video information... [00:50:00.412] I use YouTube three or four times a day to look up how to, you know, fix a step, or how to stop a rattling in my in my 4Runner.
Kirk Deeter: Right.
Tom Rosenbauer: And you know, and you can do the same thing for how to tie a clinch knot, or how to tie a Tups Indispensable, or how to make a roll cast. It's instantaneous, and we didn't have that before. We had books, or we had friends.
Kirk Deeter: That's right. [00:50:30.211] But I'll tell you this, what's good, and it gets to a point that we were making together earlier, is that credibility still counts. In fact, with all the mishmash of information that's out there, to be transcendent with your credibility, to really know your stuff, that's priceless. That's really key. Because you cut through the crowds, and if you're a resource, like you are, [00:51:00.116] a resource for credible, good information, people will turn to that over and over and over again.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: So finding your strength, finding your credibility, finding your niche, and then networking, those are the keys, I think.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah, so let's take an example. Let's say I work for a big advertising PR company in New York City or LA, and I'm sick of my job. I'm sick of selling, you know, soft drinks and bottled water and [00:51:30.523] fast food, and I want a job in the fly fishing industry. What do I do?
Kirk Deeter: Well...
Tom Rosenbauer: Other than be prepared for a huge pay cut.
Kirk Deeter: Yeah, there's that.
Tom Rosenbauer: And have your spouse...and make sure that your spouse has a really good job.
Kirk Deeter: There's that too, right?
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: Well, I'll tell you, I was... You're almost retracing my steps [00:52:00.154] from long, long ago, working at an agency, working in the pharmaceutical molecular diagnostic industry, talking about things like that, and got to travel, and got paid. It was good, it was challenging work, but was I motivated to wake up and write about viral load testing or that type of thing every day? No. Especially [00:52:30.196] because I love being in the outdoors, and fishing and so forth. So I started dabbling, you know? I started writing stories on the side. I got a break when Terry Gunn, the great guide from Lees Ferry, Arizona, introduced me to John Randolph, because John Randolph needed a story for "Fly Fisherman."
Tom Rosenbauer: Mm-hmm.
Kirk Deeter: And I'm out in Lees Ferry, and Terry said he was too busy to write it, but he could provide the photographs. And I think [00:53:00.041] that he was fibbing. I think he was doing me a favor, doing me a solid, because I was a nice young guy who wanted to work hard. And then I wrote that story 10 times over, and it was the best thing, you know, and we just parlayed one thing into the next into the next.
And a similar thing happened, I had written this book called "Cast Work" that Terry was in. That's where I met Terry. And I was near the end of my rope, you know, couldn't make it freelancing, was going to take a corporate [00:53:30.143] job back East, and I went to put my name in for a deputy editor job at "Field & Stream" magazine, and Sid Evans called me in for an interview, and he said why would you...you know, why would you want to come to New York? You live in Colorado. How many days a year do you fish in Colorado? I said, oh, 150 days a year. He says, then why come to New York, and ride the train, and work in a cubicle? I said, because it's "Field & Stream," you know? It's, you know, at the top. And he said, why don't you [00:54:00.343] stay out in Colorado, and write stories for "Field & Stream" magazine?
So it was breaks, you know? That was another nice thing that someone did for me.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: But once I got handed the opportunity, I certainly didn't look that gift horse in the mouth, right? You know, you run with it. And then when you run with it, you parlay that onto the next, and look for the next.
And I think that's the writing side of things, but I think that's true [00:54:30.223] if you're sales, you know? You get a chance to sell one thing, or you get a chance to work...to publicize one product, you know? You leave your big agency in New York, but you want to work with an upstart company that's making widgets for fly fishing, that's fantastic. Again, you crawl, walk, run. It's been a process. It's always a process. And if you set yourself up understanding that it's a process, [00:55:00.146] that one thing leads to another and you're just stacking bricks on the foundation, pretty soon you'll have one floor built, and then the next floor, and then you'll find yourself at home in the fly fishing world.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah, it's not a quick process. You don't go from...I don't think you go from being, you know, a marketer somewhere to being a marketer for a fly fishing company. It generally doesn't work that [00:55:30.262] way, unfortunately.
Kirk Deeter: No, it's hard. It's hard to go from selling widgets to selling... You know, fly fishing is a really tricky world, as you know. Because I've always said, you don't have to have run for an office, or been the mayor of a city to cover politics, right? And you don't have to have played in the NFL to cover pro football.
Tom Rosenbauer: Right.
Kirk Deeter: But the minute you write [00:56:00.384] something, or say something, or project something that isn't accurate in the fly fishing world, there are minions that are going to just come out and gnaw on you, as you know, right?
Tom Rosenbauer: Even if you write something that's accurate, these days on the internet, there are millions who will gnaw at you.
Kirk Deeter: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So you know, they come out, and it's fine. It's fine. But [00:56:30.259] it's important to have your stuff in one bag, that's for sure.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. So how do you get noticed? You know, you're living in LA, and you're working...let's say you're an accountant or a marketer, and you're living in LA. How do you build a network in the fly fishing industry? How do you get noticed?
Kirk Deeter: Well, LA is a great example. You've done it. I mean, they've got the fishing clubs there, right?
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: Where you tour, and so speaking tours, [00:57:00.375] and they bring experts in to talk and so on and so forth. So find the community, and try to find connections, preferably in person. I still think that it's a personal business, and people like to shake hands and look each other in the eye.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yep, yep. Yep.
Kirk Deeter: But you know, failing that, you can find communities online as well. But I think the meaningful relationships are going to be the ones that you make in person. So go to events, go to a TU [00:57:30.261] chapter meeting, even...you know, go to a stream cleanup, better yet. Go to a, you know, when someone comes to town to talk, to the fly fishing club, go and check it out. And be open-minded. It's important, you know? Be a sponge. Have two ears. Realize that you have two ears, and one mouth for a reason. My mother always told me that, right? So that's what I know. [00:58:00.149]
Tom Rosenbauer: That's a good one, two ears and one mouth. I like that.
Kirk Deeter: Yeah. Yeah, so I mean, the more you sponge up, and the more you listen, and the more you absorb, the better off you're going to be.
Tom Rosenbauer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tell me, Kirk, in your opinion, what are some skills that are valuable in the fly fishing industry? I mean, what skill does... Because I'm thinking of a couple. What skill [00:58:30.085] does someone have that could kind of shortcut the whole process? And you know, they love to fly fish, they're not in the fly fishing industry, they have a skill, what skills are desirable, are sellable in the fly fishing industry?
Kirk Deeter: Yeah, you know, I think I'm biased, of course, the writing world has changed a lot, but communicating and writing clearly, effectively, be that through [00:59:00.473] stories, or more probably electronically, and promotional materials. Having a clear voice, having a distinctive voice. And understanding the technical side of it, you know, the grammar and the punctuation, that stuff still matters, even though we live in a visual world. Transposing that though, you know, a great visual eye is really important.
Tom Rosenbauer: Mm-hmm. [00:59:30.169]
Kirk Deeter: A lot of people are self-appointed filmmakers, but there are some who really stand out because they're just naturally gifted in that way.
Tom Rosenbauer: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Kirk Deeter: So I think having a great eye is super important. Diplomacy, getting along with people, understanding debate, being a good listener is a real important skill.
Tom Rosenbauer: Especially because in this industry, everybody knows everybody, [01:00:00.290] and the word gets around if you're a jerk, right?
Kirk Deeter: That's exactly right, you know? And even if you... You don't have to be right every time, right? You can make a mistake, or you can trip over your feet.
Tom Rosenbauer: Sure, yeah. Yep.
Kirk Deeter: And what's nice about this industry is people will pick you up if you're a nice person, and at least you tried hard, or at least you cared, you know? And remember somebody's kids, you know, or their [01:00:30.237] interests, you know, that... We lost Chris Santella a couple months ago, several months ago. He was a great writer, and a good friend of mine.
Tom Rosenbauer: Oh, God, I didn't know that.
Kirk Deeter: Yes, yes, yes, he...yeah, he had a brain...a cancer thing that just got him, and it got him quickly. And he was a... He wrote "The 50 Best Places to Fly Fish Before Your Die," and a bunch of other stuff, and...
Tom Rosenbauer: Right, yeah.
Kirk Deeter: ...we went on a lot of [01:01:00.329] trips and stuff together. But I always remember whenever I would see him, he would ask, you know, how's your golf game? How's your son, Paul, doing? How's the, you know, this and that? And then we'd talk about fishing, or then we'd talk about work.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: And that's what set him apart on a lot of levels. And there are a lot of people like that. Again... You're like that, you know? And we got... [01:01:30.353] Before we started recording this podcast, we talked for 15 minutes about personal stuff, right?
Tom Rosenbauer: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: Because we're friends.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yep.
Kirk Deeter: And so I think that's important, to be open to friendships, and caring and listening, and diplomatic. Those are the things that keep you connected.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: And when people bull ahead with their own agenda, and are kind of mean-spirited [01:02:00.111] in doing so, it typically doesn't pan out very well.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah, yeah. Or someone who says, "You know what you should really do..." "You know what your company should really do..." That doesn't generally fly. Even if it's a good idea, right, it doesn't fly.
Kirk Deeter: That's right.
Tom Rosenbauer: Again, two ears and one mouth is important.
Kirk Deeter: That's right.
Tom Rosenbauer: So I want to add a few skills that I've noticed over the years that are [01:02:30.250] valuable, and can shortcut the long process of getting a job. The one that comes to mind first is being a product developer. There are still too few product designers and developers, visual designers and mechanical designers, and companies are almost always looking for a good product developer, and they're hard to find. And I don't [01:03:00.123] mean somebody that tinkers in their basement with furled leaders. I mean somebody who has been in an industry that makes stuff, and has been a designer. So I think that's a skill that is often needed.
Another one would be retail. Retail is tough, you know? Retail is tough. But Orvis stores and fly shops are always looking for fishing managers, and people [01:03:30.160] on the floor. Better that you're a young person, but it's a good stepping stone, starting in retail, in a fly shop or in a retail store.
And then, the other one is lodge managers, you know? People are... Fishing lodges are...it's a seasonal job, but fishing lodges are always, always looking for a really good manager. And you know, this would have to be somebody [01:04:00.148] that's had experience in the hotel industry or the hospitality industry somewhere, because it's a real skill, and hard, hard work. But those are kind of three things I think of that are valuable.
Kirk Deeter: I completely agree. And in fact, we do, with "Angling Trade," we have flyfishingjobs.com, where we have listings of... [01:04:30.163] People can go to flyfishingjobs.com and see lodges or whatever that has job openings.
Tom Rosenbauer: Oh, that's a good... I'm glad you brought that up. Can anyone look at that area?
Kirk Deeter: Yeah. Yeah, so we get paid by the lodge, or someone who has a job, they pay us a little bit of money to put their position out there. And then if you're looking for a job, you can go on and peruse all the options, and then maybe [01:05:00.035] send in a resume, and go from there.
Tom Rosenbauer: Flyfishingjobs.com?
Kirk Deeter: Yeah, flyfishingjobs.com.
Tom Rosenbauer: Okay.
Kirk Deeter: So that gets you [inaudible 01:05:06.923] But the reason I brought it up was those are the three things, Tom, that we probably see the most need for, you know?
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah, yeah. Yep.
Kirk Deeter: And people are always looking, there's always a thing looking for a lodge manager. There's always [crosstalk 01:05:23.720] you know, product, and sales too, you know? So retail, or reps, [01:05:30.133] or whatever, getting behind the product and selling is...those are the three things that we see the most.
Tom Rosenbauer: Okay, good. Good to hear. Can anyone subscribe to "Angling Trade" magazine, or... I guess it's just online now, right?
Kirk Deeter: Yeah, just anglingtrade.com. It's easy. And we've for years just done it as a business to business, but we are seeing more people who want to peek behind the curtain, and see how the sausage gets made.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. I mean, [01:06:00.170] you know, if you're looking for a job in the industry, it's valuable to see who's moving up in the industry, who's changing jobs, whatever. And you do some deep dives into some of the businesses. So that's another good source for people.
Kirk Deeter: We do, we do. And we look at...yeah, that would be a real good place to start. Thanks for bringing that up, Tom. You know, if you're curious about poking around, [01:06:30.308] you're welcome to come and check out "Angling Trade," you're welcome to check out flyfishingjobs.com.
Tom Rosenbauer: Okay, good.
Kirk Deeter: No strings attached, come and poke around, and see what's out there. It's fine.
Tom Rosenbauer: Mm-hmm. Yeah, good.
What other advice can we give people?
Kirk Deeter: What can I give people? Oh, well, you know, small stuff but important stuff...
Tom Rosenbauer: You're looking at your notes?
Kirk Deeter: I am, I'm looking at my notes. Well, that's Romano, [01:07:00.523] it was Romano calling in, you know, like, and I'm getting beeps and stuff. He's probably calling to say, "Say this, say this..." no.
Be patient, be fearless. Like, you know, not danger fearless, but like, you know, take risks. Be assertive, but not in a negative way.
Tom Rosenbauer: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: Be poised, and understand that things don't always roll your way.
Tom Rosenbauer: And [01:07:30.009] just because you love fly fishing doesn't mean you're going to even be looked at more seriously than someone who has the skill that a company needs.
Kirk Deeter: Yeah. You know, it's a funny side story, but like, I get lots of stories sent to me at "Trout Magazine," and the first thing they say is, "I'm a life member of 'Trout Unlimited,' and here's my story." And it's like, okay, well, that's great. Thanks for being a life member. [01:08:00.498] But I'm still going to judge this on, you know, the story, right?
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: And I think the same thing with everyone out... You know, you can love fly fishing all you want, but if you don't bring a relative skill, and you're not a personable person, that's going to be a taller hill to climb.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: So you know, those are the things I think that matter the most.
Oh, and one other thing, systematic, you know? Like, [01:08:30.197] it's okay to have a game plan, and I realize we talked about it earlier, you don't get from point A to point B instantaneously. But just chew off as much as you...the ant eats the elephant one bite at a time. And that's the way of breaking into fly fishing. It was for me, and it went very slowly, and then it starts to pick up momentum, it gathers speed, and then you're there. But if you think it's going to happen between now and February, [01:09:00.843] it's not.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. And I think this is... You know, the best people who are positioned to have a career in the fly fishing industry are young people, who maybe they don't have a family, they don't need a big salary right now. But they can crack into it through retail, or you know, through shuttling boats at a lodge, and go from there. It's tough if you're in your midlife, and you've got a family, [01:09:30.378] and maybe your spouse doesn't have a good job, and you want to move to the fly fishing industry, it's going to be a tough one.
Kirk Deeter: Yeah, for sure. And you know, we're always looking for people with fresh ideas, and we need to increase participation of young women in the sport, for sure.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: That's the future, and they're decision makers. You know, [01:10:00.040] my wife is my...you know, when it comes to purchasing decisions and so forth, it's a really important driving factor here. And the women in the fly fishing market are garnering more and more clout, as well they should.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: And so those perspectives are invaluable, and we're always looking for women who have fresh ideas and fresh approaches, and... [01:10:30.055] Because let's be honest. Like, fly fishing, to survive, desperately needs to be moving away from solely being the domain of, you know, older men. It has to become younger and more diverse and more exciting and more adventurous.
Tom Rosenbauer: I think it is. I think it definitely is.
Kirk Deeter: I mean, it's trending there for sure.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: Yeah. And Orvis... Tom, I'd go back to, like, when you and I and Hankins [01:11:00.217] went to the Black Canyon. I can't...that was 20 years ago.
Tom Rosenbauer: Mm-hmm.
Kirk Deeter: But we talked about this then, and the path that you guys were on with Orvis to this, and you did, and you accepted the challenge, and moved in that direction. And so I think following that template is something that a lot of organizations could do better, and will with the help of a younger, fresher [01:11:30.475] workforce that's integrated into the whole effort.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. One final thing I want to ask you. How stable is a job in the fly fishing industry, compared to other industries?
Kirk Deeter: Well, I think we can talk about it a couple ways. I would say unstable.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. Yep. [01:12:00.260]
Kirk Deeter: It's a shifting business. We talked about it earlier, the trends, how things are sold. In the time that "Angling Trade" has been around, which is about 20 years, we've seen fly shops probably dwindle by half across the country.
Tom Rosenbauer: Mm-hmm, yep. Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: It was a culling of the herd. The strong often got stronger, [01:12:30.115] but a lot of the smaller mom-and-pop shops went away.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah, and I think the same is true with manufacturers, and you know, marketers of flyfishing products, they come and go. How many new rod and reel companies do you see every year? And then how many of them last more than three or four years?
Kirk Deeter: Yeah. And some established brands who want to come [01:13:00.607] and dabble in fly fishing, they come and they go.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: [crosstalk 01:13:04.422] Oakley. Oakley Sunglasses came in, and they were going to change the world, man. They were going to own fly fishing.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: And that lasted about six months, and then they decided to do something else.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yep.
Kirk Deeter: So yeah, I mean, it's unstable. It's a shifting thing. But on the other hand, on the other hand, fly fishing is always going to remain fun. There's always going to be people who are devoted to it. [01:13:30.183] There's always going to be an audience for it, you know?
Tom Rosenbauer: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: The fly shop that's selling flies by the side of the river is always going to have a customer base of people who want to come in and buy flies, and know what's working and where to go. So those things, I think there's niches that are stable, and then there are parts of the industry that are less stable.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. So I would urge someone that's looking for a job to [01:14:00.183] do their due diligence on the company that they're thinking of, you know, sending a resume to, how long they've been around, you know, and find everything out you can about the company and their finances and their management.
Kirk Deeter: Oh yeah, 100%. Yeah. And some companies are for sale, right? We've seen some companies get built up, sold, and what happens [01:14:30.258] next? Well, we don't know what happens next, until it actually happens.
Tom Rosenbauer: Right, yeah.
Kirk Deeter: So, and there's a lot of that going on right now, and has gone on in the past few years, and it's going on now in the future.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: And I think we're going to see a lot...I think we'll see at least two more companies like that, big names be acquired within the next 18 months.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. And sometimes they get acquired [01:15:00.196] by an investment group, or a bigger company that just is adding to their portfolio, and aren't really...you know, don't really have the passion for fly fishing, and that may not last that long.
Kirk Deeter: That's right. That's exactly right. We'll see how it all shakes out.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. Yeah, you know, I love change, I'm always excited about seeing change, and it's...it's a [01:15:30.116] world that changes a lot. As do most things in this world, right?
Kirk Deeter: Sure.
Tom Rosenbauer: And change is accelerating, so you never know.
Kirk Deeter: You never know. But I feel kind of bad now that we've warned off on a number of levels, I still wouldn't trade my job for anything in the world. And it's a rewarding area to be in not only because of the fishing, and being outside in the [01:16:00.370] wild places, but as you said, it's the people, and it's great. I would highly encourage someone to follow their desire to fish [crosstalk 01:16:08.373]
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah. No, it's the people, and it's the connection to the environment and the natural world, and you know, the habitat and conservation projects that the industry stands behind. I mean, you can feel good about working for this industry.
Kirk Deeter: Yeah, you know, even with "Trout Unlimited," and my job there, [01:16:30.212] I don't feel... Granted we're not solving the greatest riddles of the world, but we're making the planet a little bit better, you know? So I wake up with a feeling of purpose.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yep.
Kirk Deeter: And it's not just pulling on fish, it's not just...you know, it's not just how big, and how many. And fishing's way more than that, and way deeper than that, way more important than pulling on fish for your jollies, and how many you catch is... Sure, it matters [01:17:00.109] to some degree, but it's about a lot more than that. And it's about community, it's about place, it's about environment, it's about all those things. And if you have a positive impact on all those things, you feel good about yourself. That's for sure.
Tom Rosenbauer: Mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah. Well, that's good to add, on a positive note, and I wholeheartedly agree.
Kirk Deeter: I do my best.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah, me too. And it's fun educating [01:17:30.413] people. It's fun sharing, sharing with people as we do on this podcast, and talking to cool people like you.
Kirk Deeter: Well, congratulations on your podcast. I listen to it all the time myself, and I hear about it. And when I go on it, I hear more from people whom I haven't talked to in a few years say, "Hey, I heard you on Tom's podcast..." So that's like, that's a good thing.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yeah.
Kirk Deeter: Yeah, you connected me. [01:18:00.054] So it's an honor to be here, and I appreciate you having me, man.
Tom Rosenbauer: Oh, it's always great. It's always great, Kirk. And I look forward to teaching with you at the School of Trout in a few weeks.
Kirk Deeter: I will look forward to that as well. Up in Henry's Fork we will be.
Tom Rosenbauer: Yep. All right, Kirk. Thank you so much.
Kirk Deeter: Thanks, Tom. See you soon.
Tom Rosenbauer: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. If you have a question or a comment, send it to us at [01:18:30.185]