Fishing the Alps, with Miha Ivanc
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi. And welcome to "The Orvis Fly-Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And you know, I often get questions from people about fishing in the Alps. People are going to Italy, or France, or Slovenia, and...or Austria. And they want to look [00:00:30.361] into some fishing and they want to know how to go about it and what to expect. And honestly, I've never been there, so I don't know what to expect.
So I figured I would call up an expert on fishing in the Alps. So my guest this week is Miha Ivanc from Slovenia. And the entire interview is in Slovenian. No, just kidding. He speaks very good English. And [00:01:00.062] Miha is from Slovenia, but he's fished throughout the Alps. And he talks about what the fishing is like, how to get permission, you know, how to find out where you can fish and what kind of fish you might catch.
It's mainly going to be native brown trout and native marble trout, and then some introduced rainbows. But, of course, it's a beautiful part of the world. And a lot of us go on vacation [00:01:30.139] in that region. So I thought I would try to educate all of us about fishing in the Alps. Before we do that, got a couple of things to do. One is the fly box, but even before that, it's getting toward holiday season. And you might be thinking of a gift for someone else or for yourself. And honestly, one of the greatest gifts that anyone can receive other than a trip to someplace [00:02:00.220] exotic is a fly tying kit. If you are not a fly tier, I don't think you can ever truly appreciate everything about fly fishing.
I think it teaches you so much and you understand flies better. And the thrill of catching a fish on a fly that you've actually tied yourself, there's nothing like it. And I will warn you about one thing, and that is that you're not going to save any money tying your own [00:02:30.340] flies. Anybody that ties flies will tell you that you're not going to save any money, because you're always going to find something you need. And you're going to accumulate lots of gear and lots of materials. But it's an incredibly fascinating therapeutic hobby, especially to do during the colder part of the year when you might not want to go fishing. And I highly recommend anyone who is interested in fly tying or fly fishing to try fly tying. There's nothing like it. [00:03:00.264]
And the best way to do it is to start with a kit. And, unfortunately, you don't want to get the cheapest kit you can find because it's going to have materials that aren't so great. It's going to have tools that might be a little frustrating, may not last that long. The best kit I know, really best in class is the Orvis Premium Fly-Tying Kit. It's 198 bucks, but you can tie probably hundreds of [00:03:30.223] flies with the materials in the hooks and the tools in this kit. And you can tie lots of the basic patterns that you're going to need almost anywhere in the world. And then, you know, once you've mastered those, you can branch out to lots and lots and lots of other patterns.
But, you know, if you're looking for a gift for yourself or a suggestion or a gift for another angler, fly tying kit is really an incredible gift. And you know, it's cliche, but it's a gift [00:04:00.776] that keeps on giving. So if you don't tie your own flies, take a look at a fly tying kit. All right. Enough for the commercials. Let's do the fly box. And the fly box is where you ask me questions and I try to answer them or I try to find out an answer for you. And a couple of these questions this week, I did have to reach out to some of my...in one case it was a listener who gave me some information, and another case I had to reach out to [00:04:30.423] one of my contacts in the industry.
But the first question, I think I can answer it myself. This one's from Darren. I have a couple of questions that I don't remember hearing before. Now that wintertime is getting near and the lakes are starting to freeze here in British Columbia, my thoughts are turning to ice fishing. Now, I realize that I'm not going to be using my fly rod on the ice, but I've often thought of using flies rather than the standard bait that most ice fishers use. For me, as an intermediate fly tier, I [00:05:00.276] feel there is an extra sense of satisfaction when I catch a fish on a fly that I tie myself. Have you tried using flies for ice fishing? Do you have any suggestions on how to use flies for ice fishing, or suggestions on what kind of flies to consider?
My second question is about something completely different. I fish mostly still waters, but recently fished a popular river here in BC. As someone who's used to still waters, I'm used to casting my line way out and then doing some sort of retrieve to entice the fish to come after [00:05:30.248] and bite my fly. On this river, though, I found that I was fighting many different water speeds and currents over my one cast, which created a lot of drag on my fly, especially on my dry flies.
I found that if I move closer to the fish and cast a shorter distance then I wasn't having the same issue, but I still wasn't catching fish. I suspect I was spooking them by getting too close. So my questions are how close is too close? I realize this can be very subjective, but do you have any tips or tricks that you use to determine [00:06:00.413] how close you can get and what you do when you're dealing with different speeds of water in the same section of river?
Oh, for dries, I was trying to cast directly upstream, but then I felt like I was casting directly over the fish as well. If I cast across, then I really had issues with the different water speeds. For nymphs, using an indicator, I'm in BC so I'm not allowed more than one hook for a dry dropper setup, I would cast across more often, and it wasn't quite as much of an issue, but I still think I had some weird dragging issues. [00:06:30.315]
Well, Darren, lots of advice here. One is that yes, you can use flies for ice fishing. You know, years back, and some of you who've been around for a long time might remember the Orvis weighted nymph selection. It was eight weighted nymphs in a little fleece pouch, and it was a really, really screaming deal. And we put out ads in "Field & Stream" and "Outdoor Life" and so on. It was a name acquisition device trying to entice new customers to our catalog. [00:07:00.390]
And we found that all of a sudden during the winter, we were getting a lot of orders and we realized that ice fishermen were buying these weighted nymphs for ice fishing. So, yes, you can use them. Probably the best thing to do is tip one with a mousey or a maggot or something. Weighted nymphs do work quite well ice fishing, and so I would give it a try if I were you. Nice light leader, nice light line, and a weighted nymph, and you know, tip it with a mousey. If you don't get any luck [00:07:30.272] on just the weighted nymph by itself.
Regarding your second question, well, first of all, it's always difficult when you're casting across multiple currents, and I can't give you any concrete or solid suggestions on that because every little piece of river is different. And what you have to do is you have to analyze those currents between where you are standing, where your rod is, and [00:08:00.158] where you think the fish are, and you have to do everything you can to prevent that fly from dragging.
So sometimes it's the angle you cast at, often it's using some sort of slack line cast, and then the reach cast, both slack line cast and reach cast aren't used much in still water. But if you're going to fish moving water, I advise you to go to the Orvis Learning Center and watch Pete Kutzer and learn how to do the reach cast, which I think is essential for fishing for trout [00:08:30.074] streams and also the parachute and the pile cast, parachute or pile cast. They're kind of similar. But you know, if you're casting across multiple currents, you've got to treat each little spot as a different problem to solve.
But the idea, obviously, you realize this is to make your fly drift at the same speed as the bubbles and the insects and everything else that's drifting in the current. And it's tough because you're attached to something, [00:09:00.219] so you really have to work at it to get a drag free float. Now, as far as knowing how close you can get to the fish, there isn't a real rule of thumb. In some rivers, you can get pretty close to fish and they'll feed even when you're standing almost next to them and in other rivers, you can't get within 60 feet of them. So, you know, if you're fishing an area and you think you got the right fly, and you think [00:09:30.122] that there's fish there and you're not catching fish, then the first thing I suspect is that I've spooked the fish.
In general, in smooth water without a lot of riffles on the surface, you can't get as close to fish as you can in riffled water. In riffled water, water where the surface is broken, the fish aren't as spooky and they don't see as well outside the water. So you can get a lot closer to fish in a riffled area. So I would [00:10:00.573] start with riffled areas and you probably get much closer to the fish. Now, as far as casting straight upstream, as long as you don't put your fly line over the fish or where you think a fish is, casting straight upstream is a really good way to avoid drag.
Ideally, you want to just put your tippet over the fish, but a fly line lands much heavier on the water and creates a lot more disturbance than the leader because the leader is [00:10:30.040] thinner, and it's more air resistant, and it's clear. So, you know, as long as you don't put your fly line over the fish, working straight upstream is a good idea. So I hope those things were helpful. I don't really have any, you know, specific tips or tricks because I really have to be standing next to you in any given spot to tell you how to avoid spooking the fish or how to avoid drag. Oh, you know what? I forgot to tell you [00:11:00.343] where you can send your questions. If you have questions for the fly box, you can send it to me at
John: Hey, Tom. John from Northern California, huge fan of the show. It just absolutely makes my day anytime I see a new one pop up. So thank you for doing all you do for all of us and for the sport, it's just totally awesome. [00:11:30.221] Okay, so I took your advice and I'm headed down to Magic Waters Lodge. I heard you talk a lot about it, I've done a bunch of fishing in South America, but never there. So headed down late March, we're going to miss you, I think by a couple of weeks. My questions, just general advice, actually, three categories of advice, any cool travel tips if we end up in Santiago overnight? Any cool places you like to go see and hang out, coffee, beer, whatever? [00:12:00.870]
What gear would you bring? It's going to be fall there, so I figured you would have, you know, we have all the gear and all that, but any tips, maybe the one thing you would love to bring that might be not obvious. And then lastly, the quiver. What rods should I pack to bring down? I know they have rods and all that, but I always love bringing my own, so thanks, Tom. Super stoked for the trip. We'll give you a report when we get back. Bye.
Tom: So, John, generally you've been to Patagonia, so you know [00:12:30.134] the wind's going to blow and you're going to be using bigger flies than you probably would in the States. So, you know, the standard rod for most rivers, either a six or seven weight, not a rod I fish as a standard trout rod. Very many places. I usually use a five or even a four. But in Patagonia and Magic Waters, the wind's going to blow and you're probably going to be fishing large dry flies. So I would take a six and a seven, take a five if you [00:13:00.256] have one. Because you can get calm days and, you know, you can cast a good five weight on a windy day. I do it often.
I've been known to fish a three weight on small streams at Magic Waters, and they do have some really cool little small streams. So if you have a three weight rod, I'd throw that in too. But basically, you don't want to go without a six or a seven. You want to have a heavier rod for the wind and for the bigger flies. And generally, [00:13:30.409] any big attractor dry flies are going to work pretty well. Fat Alberts and Chubby Chernobyls, and Chernobyl Ants, and things like that, Hoppers, anything like that is going to work pretty well. Nymphs work, you can take up, you know, your standard hairs, ears, pheasant tails, and things will work.
The fish there are not particularly selective. They don't see a lot of blanket hatches like we do here in the States. The rivers aren't as rich. They do have mayflies, [00:14:00.418] caddisflies, stoneflies, but they're not as rich. So you don't see real heavy hatches and thus the fish don't get that terribly selective. You know, you want waiters, obviously you want rain gear and you want to dress for...it's the mountains and it's like the Rocky Mountains in the United States. You want to be prepared for everything from cold sleety rain to a 75 degree day. It doesn't usually get much above [00:14:30.277] 75 there, so you don't need a lot of hot weather gear.
And bugs are minimal. Don't think you need much bug gear. Other than that, yeah, just follow the packing list on your Orvis information that you got from Orvis, that covers most of the important things. Regarding cool travel tips in Santiago, I never stay overnight in Santiago. [00:15:00.320] I'm always anxious to get to Magic Waters, so I often spend a few hours in the Santiago Airport. But I don't have any tips for you. You can contact the people at Magic Waters. They may have some suggestions.
One tip I will give you is that Santiago Airport is quite...especially the domestic terminal is quite inefficient and quite confusing. So if you don't know any Spanish because a lot [00:15:30.287] of the people don't speak English, take a translator app on your phone, people in the airport often use the translator apps. Ask questions, pay attention to where you're going because you have to move from a domestic terminal to the international terminal. So it's probably the least pleasant part of the trip, but it doesn't last long. And then you're on your way to Magic Waters.
All right, another email. This one's from Griffin. I'm from [00:16:00.459] Portland, Maine. Last weekend I worked my way down a stretch of river with a streamer, and then worked my way back up that same stretch of river with a dry dropper. In the future, if my streamer isn't getting any hitch, should I toss on a dry dropper halfway down the river instead of working the same stretch of river with a different rig? Any tips are appreciated and I love the podcast. P.S. - I didn't catch any fish.
Well, Griffin, join the crowd, we all get skunked lots of times. Yeah, [00:16:30.010] it depends on how big the river is. If the river is a good size river, you can probably work back down with a dry dropper or work the same water with a dry dropper. If it's a small stream, I wouldn't bother because you're probably going to spook every...if it's a small stream, you're going to spook everything that you walk by and you don't really know how long they're going to be spooked. So if I were you in a smaller stream, I would find other water to fish with a dry dropper rather than the water that you just walk [00:17:00.747] through.
And honestly, fishing a streamer does disturb the water a bit more than dry dropper. It's a bigger fly. Usually...your casts are usually a little sloppier and you're kind of stirring up the fish with your streamer. So my preferred way to do it would be to fish a dry dropper first upstream, particularly if it's a little bit bigger river. And then turn around and work down [00:17:30.679] with a streamer. That's the way I would do it anyway. But in Maine, streamer fishing is pretty, pretty popular. So that's probably why you started out with a streamer. But maybe next time, start out with a dry dropper.
Here's an email from Tom from Spokane, Washington. I've always thought that UV exposure degraded tippet. However, with the popularity of tippet holders that hang off a vest exposed to sunlight, I wonder if that's the case. Is there a concern with either monofilament or fluorocarbon breaking down? [00:18:00.270] If so, is the reduction in breaking strength significant? How often should I replace it? Thanks for sharing information on your podcast.
So, Tom, first of all, fluorocarbon doesn't break down. You can leave fluorocarbon sitting in the sun for years, and it's not going to break down. That's one of the problems with fluorocarbon. You need to be careful of your scraps. So fluorocarbon, no, no problem. With nylon monofilament, I don't think it's a problem [00:18:30.262] having it on your tippet holders because you're only in the sun for at the most, eight or nine hours at a time. And, you know, as long as you don't leave your vest or your sling bag hanging out in the sunlight, I don't think you need to worry about that. I mean, it's not that sensitive. We're talking about leaving tippet spools in the sun for, you know, six months out of the year where it's going to degrade. But if you're talking about just in the [00:19:00.226] front of your pack or whatever, no, I wouldn't worry about it.
And, you know, how often should you replace it? I don't know. I like to replace my tippet every year or every two years. You know, if I've got a spool that's been around for a few years, and particularly in the probably the 5X and below, I would replace those more often. But, you know, 4X, 3X, 2X, it'll last quite a long time. I used to replace my [00:19:30.685] tippet every year, my nylon tippet, and I don't even do that anymore, maybe every two or three years. So I think you're good. And I wouldn't worry about wearing it hanging off your vest.
Here's an email from Michael. Tom, I have been fly fishing for about two years. I mainly fish the tailwaters of the White River system in Arkansas. I'm still learning about casting and fly selection. I can fish for hours and never get a strike, I see folks sitting in their lawn chairs and steadily catching [00:20:00.232] trout in their spinning rods. My wife recently went with me and I baited her line with a worm, and in 30 minutes she caught a nice brown and a nice sized rainbow. Do you have some suggestions for me as to fly fishing those waters? I especially struggle when the water is low, clear and slow. I appreciate your podcast and listen as often as possible.
So, Michael, first of all, the waters that you're fishing are not easy. Tailwaters, generally, the fish get more selective and they can be a little spooky. [00:20:30.538] And so one thing I suspect is that you could be scaring them if you're not real careful with your wading, particularly in low and clear water, can't get close enough to get your fly in front of a fish that's not disturbed.
You know, worm fishing is a whole different deal. You throw it out there and the fish smell the worm, and they will move to the lure and or the worm because they smell it in the water. And then they'll inhale it, and they're [00:21:00.795] not as suspicious of it because it tastes and smells natural. On the other hand, you're trying to get a fish, to grab something quickly that doesn't smell right. Not that they can smell it when it drifts by that quickly. But you're trying to catch those fish that are fishing by sight. And it's just harder. Most of the time it's harder to catch a fish on a fly than it is on a worm. And, you know, as far as [00:21:30.291] tips for you, I would advise a couple of things.
One is I would observe the successful fly fishers on your rivers there and see what they're doing. See how far they cast, see what angle they cast at, see what they're doing to avoid drag. You know, watch how they cast. And, you know, if they're friendly enough, ask them, you know, not [00:22:00.552] so much what they're using, but how they're fishing it. The fly is one of the least important things. I think it's actually, generally, it's how you're fishing the fly. So, you know, if they're willing to talk to you, I would ask them and maybe ask them for a little help. Fly fishers are often pretty generous with their advice.
The ideal thing for you to do is to hire a guide, there are lots of good guides in that area. And, yeah, it's expensive to [00:22:30.269] hire a guide for the day. But, you know, if you're not having any success, you need some time on the water, I think with someone who can watch what you're doing and offer some suggestions. So I hope those help. But good luck. You will catch some fish eventually and don't give up hope. It's not always easy.
Herb: Hi, Tom, this is Herb calling from Southeast Utah. I want to say thanks for the podcast. It's been a wonderful resource for all things [00:23:00.416] fly fishing. I'm newer to it, I've been consistently fly fishing for about two years now, and I love that I'll spend the rest of my life learning and continuing to improve. We've got a lot of lakes and very small streams around here. The streams are often only 4 to 8, maybe 10 feet across, and a lot of the holes that we find fish in tend to be 2 feet by maybe 4 feet long. So I had a few questions. The first question has to do with [00:23:30.854] these smaller holes. If I'm seeing little bait fish and water striders on the surface and such, to me, that's an indicator that there's likely not larger fish in the holes. Wondering if that's probably true.
The second question has to do with leaders. I've enjoyed learning how to build my own leaders with blood knots, and I'm wondering how much use I can really expect to get out of these leaders. Often, I'll change the knot on my fly throughout the day [00:24:00.438] and wondering how much life I can really get out of these knots, and at what point, if any, I should be worried about them failing.
My final question has to do with differentiating between wild and stock trout. Is this even really possible? I've heard there are indicators such as a red adipose fin or the black dot behind the eye that may indicate wild trout. And I've also read that stock trout may develop these features [00:24:30.105] over time. So, thanks again for your time, wondering if you could weigh in on that one and appreciate everything you do for fly fishing. Thanks, bye.
Tom: So, Herb, regarding question number one, just because there are water striders and small bait fish in a pool, doesn't mean there won't be any larger trout in there. You know, for one thing trout don't eat water striders. If you ever pick one up, they're just hard as a rocket. I don't think they have much [00:25:00.204] nutritional value, and they're also really hard to capture. So I don't think...actually, once I saw a young trout trying to catch a water strider, and he never got it. He was chasing it around. He never got it. And even if there's a bait fish in a pool, you know, the larger trout, they'll sit right next to bait fish and they won't attack them unless a bait fish shows sign of distress or the water goes up and [00:25:30.277] gets dirty.
And the bigger fish know they can catch those larger bait fish. They're not going to go after those bait fish unless they're weakened in some way. So, they will live side by side or right next to small bait fish. So don't assume that there aren't any large trout there, just because you see that stuff, the big trout could be hiding. Question number two. You know, the knots in your leader [00:26:00.257] are a lot like tires on a car. How much wear and tear are those knots going to get if you're not fishing a place where you're scraping them on rocks and/or dragging them through sand or catching them on snags or whatever, the knots will hold a long time. And I think you're wise to inspect the knot in front of your fly.
I would inspect the knot in front of your fly and also the knot that attaches your tippet to the [00:26:30.458] rest of the leader. As far as the other knots go higher up in the leader, I wouldn't worry about it. I think you can fish an entire season with a knotted leader that you built yourself and just worry about the fly connection and that first connection. because the fly connection fish's teeth can get sharp and they can scrape that knot and then it can rub on the bottom when they're fighting, you know, if they're trying to get that fly out of their mouth and they're rubbing it on the bottom. So it's good [00:27:00.782] idea to inspect there, and that first knot is one of the weakest points between your leader and your tippet. But other than that, higher up in the leader I wouldn't worry about it at least for a year.
And question number three, regarding wild and stock trout. There is no real, reliable way to physically, tell a stock from a wild trout. Stock trout can be in the river for a long time and they can develop [00:27:30.285] those same colors, any of those spot patterns or blue spots on the cheeks or red adipose fins might indicate a wild trout, but not necessarily.
And I've asked biologists this for many years, and none of them have ever told me that by just physical characteristics, you could tell a wild from a stock trout. I mean some stock trout between the diet they get and the tanks that they use [00:28:00.480] to raise them, they look pretty damn wild. They have the coloration. Sometimes their fins don't even get ragged. And, you know, the most reliable thing is to look at their fins on the bottom of the fish. And typically, in a hatchery fish, they're going to be more ragged and they're not going to have smooth edges.
But then again, during spawning season, the fish fight and the females are digging in the gravel and they can beat up their fins pretty [00:28:30.223] badly too. So now there really isn't a way to tell them apart. DNA analysis can probably tell them apart, but that's not something you and I are going to be able to do. And, now, couple fly tying questions. Couple of fly tying material questions, they're kind of interesting. I had to do some research on.
So the first one's from Chris from Indiana. Love the podcast. Thanks for all you do. I bought a few [00:29:00.240] small pieces of jungle cock cape at a show number of years ago, and I'm finally running out. I'm looking online and the real stuff is very hard to locate. Can you share your knowledge on this? From a little internet searching, it seems that our jungle cock feathers come from the gray junglefowl, Gallus sonneratii, one of four species of junglefowl that gave rise to the domestic chicken.
The gray junglefowl originates from India and is listed as a species of leased concern, [00:29:30.534] meaning there are plenty of them in nature and they're not threatened with extinction. Nevertheless, the gray junglefowl is listed on CITES, C-IT-E-S, which means that sale of the birds or feather are restricted. Although, I'm not sure about the exact restrictions. I also learned that the gray junglefowl has been bred in captivity in England since the 1860s for the fly fishing feather trade. Do you happen to know if it is legal to raise these birds in the U.S. [00:30:00.557] and sell their feathers? Is anyone doing it? Is it legal to buy pen-raised jungle cock capes from England?
I know in the Orchid hobby, many species that are CITES listed are propagated by seed and sold by vendors without any problem. It is just a collection of wild plants from natural habitats that is prohibited. Why such a scarcity with jungle cock?
All right, well, first of all Chris, let me just explain for people that aren't familiar with jungle cock, jungle cock [00:30:30.580] is a very beautiful, waxy feather that has been used for hundreds of years on streamer flies and Atlantic salmon flies, mainly. So fancier flies with more exotic feathers on them. It's not used that much anymore.
And you know, people that are kind of tying exhibition flies or are very traditional in their fly tying will use [00:31:00.624] it. However, it's difficult to obtain. And I wasn't sure about the exact situation with jungle cock. So I reached out to Marcos Vergara at Hareline now in Michigan. Used to be in Oregon, one of the biggest fly tying distributors in the country, wholesale distributors. And he knows the industry really well. And this is what Marcos has to say, and I'll quote him [00:31:30.340] here. "Nobody has ever commercially grown jungle cock successfully that I know of. Bill Keough who owns Hareline, who is a hackle breeder, raised a few hundred here, but never worth the effort. The guy in the UK had a few capes to show clueless inspectors and was bringing in barrels full from India through the back door illegally. Only way to offer jungle cock commercially and legally is with accompanying CITES certificates [00:32:00.484] proving that it was legally brought into the country through the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. We used to deal with the UK guy years ago, and then his history came to light. All was done legally through U.S. Fish and Wildlife and CITES certificates."
In other words, Marcos was bringing it in legally into this country. But the guy in the UK was actually illegally bringing it into the UK. He wasn't actually raising many jungle cock. [00:32:30.196] Then he goes on to say, "Indian merchants sell and mail this stuff into the U.S.A. every day. I see dealers offering and have always wondered if they're aware that if they do not have CITES documentation with proof of U.S. Fish and Wildlife importation, that they're exposing themselves to a $250,000 fine through U.S. Fish and Wildlife. Not worth the risk. Do not know if any company in our industry is ready for a fine like that. Sadly, U.S. Fish and Wildlife inspectors are too busy [00:33:00.556] harassing companies like us who are doing everything by the book and do not have time to pursue illegal sellers on eBay or Etsy. Canada also illegally ships many U.S. Fish and Wildlife items into the U.S. dealerships. With that being said, we have introduced, that is Hareline has introduced the Pro Sportfisher line and have the best synthetic jungle cock I have ever seen. From a few feet, you cannot tell the difference. And so these are like photorealistic jungle cock [00:33:30.671] feathers that have the same look and feel as a natural jungle cock. And you can get those through any fly time dealer that sells Hareline products."
So anyway that's the story. Basically, anything you see at a show or can get through the mail is most likely illegal. And I don't know what you'd have to go through to get CITES [00:34:00.574] certification, certification for jungle cock, but I bet it would not be worth the trouble. And I've known some other people in the States who tried to raise them, I don't know where they got the eggs but the birds are incredibly difficult to raise in captivity. So anyway, that's the story as I know it and as Marcos knows it with jungle cock.
Now here's another fly tying material [00:34:30.302] email that I got from Dan. And this is a correction to something that I told someone in a fly box a few weeks back. And here's what Dan has to say. Love the podcast. But I heard in a recent episode you suggested someone could collect songbird feathers from their backyard. It is illegal to possess feathers from migratory birds without a permit. And he sent me a link and I will read you [00:35:00.152] this paragraph from the Fish and Wildlife Service.
The possession of feathers and other parts of Native North American birds without a permit is prohibited by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act. This protects wild birds by preventing their killing by collectors and the commercial trade in their feathers and extends to all feathers regardless of how they were obtained. There is no exception for molted feathers or those taken from road [00:35:30.831] or window killed birds. More information on the Migratory Bird Treaty Act and the list of MBTA protected species can be found here, then you can follow that link if you want.
Exceptions do exist for the feathers of legally hunted waterfowl or other migratory game birds. And for the use of feathers by Native Americans, individuals or institutions wishing to use bird feathers, bones, or whole specimens for [00:36:00.383] educational research purposes must apply for permits from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and their state wildlife or natural resource agency.
And then there's this disclaimer, identifications based on the feather atlas cannot be considered definitive unless confirmed by a qualified expert. So basically, I was wrong, if you have a songbird like a blue jay or whatever that molts a feather in your yard, technically, it's illegal to keep it. That's the law. I'm [00:36:30.397] not going to argue with it. That's the way it is. So I am sorry if I steered anybody wrong. And if you collected any feathers, molted feathers from your backyard, then maybe you better throw them out.
Although I doubt if the Fish and Wildlife service is going to come after you for a couple of blue jay feathers. But it is illegal. Now, there is an exception made for waterfowl feathers and legally hunted feathers. So things like mallard, wood duck [00:37:00.008] teal, Hungarian partridge, those feathers that you buy are legal because the exception was made for those. I think it was back in the 1940s. Exceptions were made for waterfowl feathers, CDC, and things like that. So that stuff is legal, but anything else, any other songbird, you're going to have a problem.
Now, the one thing you can possess and shoot anytime you want with a pellet gun or whatever are [00:37:30.607] invasive species like English sparrows, pigeons, and starlings. Starlings have some pretty cool feathers on them for fly tying. And so do pigeons. Pigeons have great soft tackles. They're a nice blue done color. So those are not protected whatsoever. And if you find pigeon feathers in the park, you can take those home and tie some flies with them. And I apologize for giving you the wrong information in a previous podcast.
JP: Hi Tom. [00:38:00.399] This is JP. I'm calling from Bristol in the UK. I've got a question about catching multiple fish from one pool. I, for the life of me can't seem to do it. The most I've caught is maybe like two on a good day. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. [00:38:30.633] Maybe I'm not doing anything wrong, but it's just where I'm fishing. It's all kind of, I fish normally in the Southwest of the UK. So Dartmoor, Devon, Cornwall, those kind of places. But I don't know, it seems like I can't catch more than one or two fish out of any pool. Am I doing anything wrong? [00:39:00.461] Am I bad ? Yeah, I don't know. I'd just like to hear your insights because whenever I hear the podcast, like people are picking like lots of fish out of multiple holes and I'm just like, oh, maybe I'm doing something wrong. I don't know. But thanks for all you do and, yeah, any insight would be greatly appreciated because it is kind of frustrating. Cheers. Thank you.
Tom: JP, [00:39:30.732] you know, I expect that I've seen those streams that you're talking about, or I've been to that part of the UK, and they're mostly fairly small and slow streams and, you know, when we catch a fish, the fish thrash around a lot. That may or may not disturb the rest of the fish in the pool. But also, you know, when you're playing a fish and when you're landing a fish, you're probably moving around a lot. You're waving your arms, you got your rod up in the air, you're [00:40:00.340] netting the fish.
So you're probably creating a fair amount of disturbance. And particularly in a small stream, that is probably going to disturb the rest of the fish in the pool. Now the people that you hear about catching, you know, 20 fish in one pool are probably fishing faster riffles, they're probably fishing a bigger river where the fish feel a lot more secure out in the bigger water [00:40:30.068] and the deeper water.
So, it's really going to vary from stream to stream. But in those streams you're talking about, if you're catching, you know, one or two fish out of the pool, I think that's all you can expect, and I don't think you're doing anything wrong.
All right, that is a fly box for this week. Let's go talk to Miha about fishing in the Alps. My guest today is Miha Ivanc, and Miha is a part owner or co-owner of the Kirka River [00:41:00.332] Lodge, which is an Orvis endorsed lodge in Slovenia. And also, his day job is fisheries research with the Fisheries Research of Slovenia. So obviously, Miha knows a lot about fishing in that part of the world, both from a scientific and from a sport fishing background. So, Miha, welcome, welcome to the podcast.
Miha: Yeah. Hello. Nice to have a podcast with you.
Tom: Yeah. [00:41:30.025] Well, it's interesting. Slovenia is someplace that I've always wanted to go to. And we're thinking about setting up a hosted trip sometime in the next few years. So hope to meet you.
Miha: What was stopping you? What was stopping you?
Tom: Oh, work, family, other trips, you know, those kind of things. But it's a place I'd like to visit and I get frequent questions here on the podcast, Miha, about fishing in the Alps, fishing in Italy, [00:42:00.321] Austria, Switzerland. And you have fished these areas. So I wanted you to describe for us what the fishing is like, how someone would, you know, go about taking a day or two if they're on a vacation to that part of the world. And doing some fishing. Obviously, you want them to go to Slovenia, but we should talk about other countries as well.
Miha: Yeah. Fishing in the Alps is interesting [00:42:30.335] streams, so to speak. So, yeah, as you know, the Alps, they divided northern parts of Europe to the southern part of Europe. So mostly if we start with fish, which are there for fishing, if we are talking Alps strictly about Alps, that's mostly trouts and close relatives, meaning graylings and different types of trouts. And also we have [00:43:00.459] some introduced species like your rainbows and your brook trouts. And also one couple of very indigenous species which are low locked to the, let's say, small areas in the Alps.
So one of those is Danube salmon, which is not strictly locked to the Alps, but it's also present there. That's a close relative to taimen. So the Mongolian [00:43:30.285] taimen is his closest brother, so to speak. So that's also one very interesting species also for fishing, but generally, fishing in Alps it's mostly about trouts and salmon. It's generally, maybe in some reservoirs or lakes you can also fish for pike or also walleye in some of them. But that's generally, what the fishing is here.
Tom: Okay.
Miha: So I said [00:44:00.335] also that the Alps they divide a little bit, the Europe and also the watershed systems. They divide at least two watershed systems. One is the, let's say Danube River Basin, more or less if I forget, Germany and maybe France. I'm more from the eastern part of the Alps, so I'm more focused on that part. So we have a Danube River basin on one side and also on the other side of the Adriatic [00:44:30.442] or Mediterranean River basin.
So these basins are making fishing in the Alps more interesting because you have a lot of sister species on one side of the Alps comparing to the other side of the Alps, meaning I don't know. Here in Slovenia we have in the waters, which are drained to the Danube River basin, we have brown trouts. And in the rivers, which are drained to the Mediterranean or Adriatic Sea, as a smaller part of Mediterranean, [00:45:00.829] we have marble trouts, which are kind of trouts or genetically explained, they are the brown trouts, which were isolated long enough to become its own species. They look different because of the environment and so on and so on. And you have many, many, this kind of sister species on one side and in the other side of the Alps. So mostly that. Yeah.
Tom: So are the brown [00:45:30.781] trout that we know here in North America, are they not native to the Mediterranean drainage? Is it just marble trout that are native to the Mediterranean?
Miha: Yeah, mostly. As I know your brown trouts are mostly, where they came from is mostly Germany and parts of what you get, it's, as I know from Scotland, so you have from this kind of regions, you got brown trouts. [00:46:00.626] Yeah, I could say that, you know, Europe and Alps people mix this a lot. Meaning they were moving fish around a lot in the last centuries or even before. So it's very hard to now to say without some, I don't know high tech scientific inventorization or investigations or studies to determine what was where. But generally speaking, especially now with [00:46:30.395] the use of genetics and stuff like that, we can determine on which side or where were some species.
So, but generally speaking on the northern side should be more brown trout. And on the southern, especially in the eastern part of the Alps, should be more marble trouts. Yeah, just one more thing. The problem is that if they mix together, you have fertile [00:47:00.434] hybrids, which are highly aggressive to both mother species, so to speak. And that can be and was a big problem, especially in the history.
Tom: So do you have a lot of hybrids in your rivers now?
Miha: If I talk about Slovenia, we had that problem, especially because we don't have many rivers which are drained to the Adriatic, just couple of them, like River Soca, which you probably know, and some others. And they were big [00:47:30.441] especially during the first World War, here were big fronts and stuff like that. And after the war, who conquered the land, they wanted to restore also the fishing and not knowing what was present there. They start talking with another species. And that caused big problems, meaning just that was the cause here in Slovenia after the first World War.
So then in '50s, '60s, we really had a lot of hybrids and then was a kind of a national [00:48:00.943] program, how to restore a healthy population of relatively pure marble trout population. And I know that in Italy, they have same problems in many rivers, they're trying to get pure streams, in some of the rivers, they still have kind of both population kind of mixed. But the general idea is to have a more or less the marble trouts on the southern part of the eastern Europe [00:48:30.195] Alp area.
Tom: Now, to restore those populations, are they resorting to poisoning the rivers with Rotenone like we do in the States?
Miha: No. Europe, it's a little bit old fashioned. So I know quite some things about eradication. So, because in my first job I was just doing a program or project of eradication of lake char from high altitude lake. So in [00:49:00.590] Europe, as I know at the present time, the use of fish poisons, as you know, it's not allowed. So, you have to have some other measurements, how to get rid of this in, let's say this fish you don't wanna have there. They're not classified as invasive species, but just kind of alien species. And it's kind of, it's a long term work, so to speak.
So [00:49:30.281] I can speak with how we did it in our rivers was mostly with kind of combined work with hatchery work and also using nursery streams, and also encouraging fishermen to take out the browns, and the hybrids out of the river where the marble trout should be. And also leaving the marble trouts there, and I don't know, in '60s, the probability to catch a marble trout, [00:50:00.468] a pure marble trout was quite low, but now I think that in our area it's more than 90% that if you will catch a trout, it'll be a marble trout.
Tom: Oh, very good.
Miha: Yeah, that was the kind of success meaning also in all hatcheries in that area, private or state-owned, they're not allowed even to keep brown trouts there. So meaning, I don't know if they [00:50:30.417] escape or whatever happens. So that's now for more than 10 years, it's not allowed anymore.
Tom: That's great. And did you use electroshocking as well to remove some of the brown trout?
Miha: Yeah. We use those also electrofishing, so with the electro aggregates with the electric. So mostly we do that, plus, I don't know genetical studies, most...the problem in Slovenia was to find kind of a pure strain somewhere. And [00:51:00.761] then to start with that. And we have luck that in some areas, branch out, couldn't climb so fast so far up the stream or the nursery streams. So actually, that time they found some specimens of pure marble trout. So that then was much more easier than to start with your own population. And then, I don't know, with the help of the [00:51:30.312] hatchery production plus nursery streams plus help of fishermen, plus periodical electrofishing, so the number of brown trout and hybrids was going down. And now we are pretty kind of happy about that. It's still, can be in some areas, some problems, but it's much, much easier.
Tom: And obviously, you're trying to keep the rainbow trout out of there as well.
Miha: Yeah. Rainbow trout was introduced here beginning of the 19th century. So [00:52:00.736] at that time, they didn't even know that the rainbows, you have multiple strain of rainbows, which we know now. So, because in some streams they released now, if we look back or read what they did at that time, we see that they introduced at least two strains of rainbows, meaning one more kind of which are more used to moving back to the sea or something kind of traveling type [00:52:30.374] and more kind of landlocked type.
So because in some areas the rainbows didn't live there, they said at that time. But now we see that actually they were a different type and they just moved downstream. But still, we have rainbows practically anywhere in Slovenia, we have couple of streams, which are 100% without rainbows. We still stock some rainbows in the [00:53:00.271] fishing areas, mostly for catch and take fishing plus last five years if it's their stocking of rainbows, all the rainbows are sterile. So they cannot intervene with the natural population or with other population of other fish species. So those fish are purely meant just to be fished out or taken catch and take. So we call it catch and take.
Tom: Yeah. Okay. What is it [00:53:30.682] like fishing for marble trout as compared to fishing for brown trout? Are they more difficult? Are they...
Miha: It's more or less the same thing. It's a trout. So if you are familiar how the trouts are behaving or what's their general idea of how they live, it's pretty much the same story. Maybe to point out, it's also important that in Slovenia, also in other countries, but in Slovenia [00:54:00.807] particularly that fishing for trouts, it's only fly fishing a lot, not spinning and stuff like that. So in Slovenia, it's only fly fishing. I know that in Austria and Italy and all neighboring countries is also spinning for trouts allowed. But we went more in the radical direction so that trouts in Slovenia, mostly it's just fly fishing only.
Tom: Interesting.
Miha: Yeah. I don't know, that's one of the measurements, [00:54:30.321] how to keep the waters more not so high pressure on the fish populations there. And also to, I don't know, make fishing a little bit more challenging. But if I go back to your question about what's the difference between fishing and marble trout and trout, actually it's not a big difference, meaning the fish it's a trout, so to speak. So the basic difference is that the marble trouts [00:55:00.843] are pretty much very adapted to the environment where they live. Meaning I don't know, especially in some rivers which are typical Alpine streams, their color, it's similar to what you see in the bottom of the river. So they can be completely pale or without color or completely white and things like that.
So I know that a lot of fishermen, they have problems spotting them. [00:55:30.391] So meaning where they are, actually, they're 2 feet of...couple of meters in front of you, but you don't see it. So meaning polarizing glasses are a must. So not to forget also that fishing in the all Alp...majority of Alpine streams in the Europe is that we have crystal clear streams. Only in the streams which are coming out of the glaciers, which have a lot of I don't know, sand [00:56:00.286] or silt or something like that. They're a little bit more cloudy. But generally speaking, the trout streams are crystal clear, and you are fishing for the fish you see, you are not blind fishing. So that's also kind of challenge on that, they first have to spot the fish. And then also on the other side, fish can see you too. So it's a little bit kind of challenging fishing.
We see that that's also kind of challenge, [00:56:30.225] especially for fishermen coming from the U.S. because they're not used for, I don't know, tippet 6X, 7X, and stuff like that. And also on the other side, the presentation because of fish can see you. And so on the presentation, it's much more important than usually probably it's more important for trouts than the fly you are fishing for because if the presentation isn't perfect, meaning you cannot splash on the water and stuff like that, depends [00:57:00.584] of where you're fishing, that can spook the fish easily and so on. And on the other side, the trouts are typical fish comparing to the other salmon species, which we have here as grayling.
We have this common grayling, not the arctic grayling, which is used in the Scandinavian, also in Alaska. Many people consider them as a pest because they jump on every fly you throw them. In Europe, we have this typical grayling. So Thymallus thymallus, [00:57:30.366] the Latin name, they're much more demanding. But that's another maybe for the later talk. So with trout, if you know the basic, with trout fishing, it's the same. Meaning for bigger marble trouts, which everyone wants to catch, it's a little bit different because bigger fish, they are more kind of, how should I say, educated. So when they grow more than, I don't know, 50 centimeters, [00:58:00.466] they only feed on other fish.
So mostly for that kind of sizes, streamers are the best solution, and also the water should be kind of a little bit higher, maybe a little bit cloudy or things like that. So they don't come out of their, I don't know, areas just you know, easily. So they're a little bit more hard to get, but they're mostly in the lower parts of the Alpine streams, because there is [00:58:30.703] enough food, meaning other fish in the upper areas that they cannot grow so big. So probably, you know, the biggest trout, marble trout, which was actually found in Slovenia on the, how do you say, before the gates of one hydropower plant. So it was already dead. It was measured more than 1 meter, 20 and 22 kilos. So they have it stuffed in one of the hotels [00:59:00.192] here in the social valley, so you can still see it.
Tom: Wow.
Miha: How big it is.
Tom: That's a big drought.
Miha: Yeah. And also probably that kind of became, this trout species, became a kind of bucket fish for many fishermen. They want to catch one. So basically, it's a brown trout, which looks a little bit different and leaves on the southern side, so to speak.
Tom: Yeah. The habitats certainly sound like, like brown trout, [00:59:30.307] that we're used to here.
Miha: Yeah. I fished in the States, I fished in Colorado, in couple of the rivers. So basically, it's the same idea. Maybe the rivers there, meaning Colorado, there are a little bit more cloudy or not so clear as we have. But trouts are trouts. So, you know, also, I don't know, rainbows are more reactive also off season, so to speak, in the spring and in the fall time [01:00:00.423] as normal trouts or brown trouts. But generally speaking, if you know how to catch a brown trout, then catching a brown trout in Europe, you know, Alps is the same story. So it's nothing special, meaning, okay, probably the fauna is different. Environment is a little bit different. That adds a kind of challenge how you will approach and also this clearness of the water. [01:00:30.972]
So this adds, I think, the most, so that people are not used to that. And you know, then, you fishing for, I don't know, with the dry fly, it must be a complete dead drift. You cannot drag or do whatever, you know, fish will immediately see that the fly is dragging, and if it's dragged, then she won't even bother about dead fly. So that what I see, it's a lot of time a problem with fishermen we're having here. [01:01:00.788] And you tell them, please, the fly must flow down as it wasn't attached to your line or whatever. And they are not even able to produce that kind of dead drift.
Tom: Now, I assume you have mayflies, stoneflies, caddisflies in your rivers same as us?
Miha: Yes. Mostly we have everything, what you just mentioned maybe different species. [01:01:30.310] Also, the hatching season is, I don't know what's in the States, but here in Europe it's mostly May, June, it's the half season of all these species of insects, you said. So that time it's probably the best time to come fishing because you have massive hatches. But we don't use so much caterpillars as you do. I know that in Montana they would like to fish with big caterpillars and stuff like that. [01:02:00.440] Yeah. Here, fish don't go on that. They mostly scare them, not attract them.
So it's kind of interesting because many people come and I look at their fly boxes and they have a lot of, you know, that kind of flies in. And then we start talking and they try, but they mostly scare fish, not attract them. But generally speaking, just a little bit different patterns of [01:02:30.105] stoneflies, caddis, and maybe also nymphs are a little bit different. So that's mostly what we fish with.
Tom: Okay. And so I assume most of your flies are smaller, sparser than what we would be used to in the American West?
Miha: Yeah, it's mostly so that in the springtime, when the hatches are massive, so that time the flies can get to relatively big. We have, you know big hatches of this Ephemera danica, [01:03:00.326] big Ephemera, which is kind of, can be, I don't know, 4 or 5 centimeters long. So that's all happens in May and beginning of June. And also caddis is not so big, but still we are most especially in the lower part of the Alpine stream, we have still quite some hatches. So we see that the water is still kind of relatively healthy because we have this regularly, yearly [01:03:30.888] hatches. And also fish are in the spring more hungry than in the fall. So, yeah, in fall, the fishing is a little bit more challenging because everything gets smaller, meaning flies up to hook 23 if you're more demanding.
And also tippets get smaller because there's less water, generally speaking, fish are more crowded, fish are more spooky, so it's a little more challenging fishing. [01:04:00.475] But also fishing mostly during the day. In the spring, you can fish up to, I don't know, 10 p.m. in the night because usually the hatches are the most massive at the evening hours, so that time fishing can go really in the night. But in fall, that's not the question. It must be sun out mostly. For instance, in September, in October, it must be warm so that the flies [01:04:30.459] can fly or get out of the water or hatch, and that's the main time where the fishing can be productive.
Tom: And is this what you're describing pretty much the same throughout the Alps, whether you're in Italy or...?
Miha: Yeah. So to go back with that, what your original question was, first, I have to explain you a little bit about the management, how the management of fresh waters in that region, let's say, Alps region is it's organized. So [01:05:00.244] mostly in all other countries which have a rich, how should I say, capitalist or democratic history, mostly you have the owner of the water and the manager. So you have a lot of private waters, plus you have kind of state-owned waters. In our country, in Slovenia, we don't have private waters. There's no river, no stream which is privately owned. So everything is state-owned.[01:05:30.460] And also the management is so that we don't have this kind of...out of that, what I said earlier, comparing to the neighboring countries where you have an owner and manager, and I don't know, at least one of them wants to have a profit in money out of fishing, so to speak, or the river.
Yeah, here in Slovenia was that big difference that we got the management, or we are keeping the management from the former state, meaning from Yugoslavia or socialist state [01:06:00.338] or communist state, whatever. So at that time, it was so that fishing rights was given to the...we call it fishing families, but it can be compared to the fishing clubs. So this is volunteer organization of people who want to have good fishing. And these people, and it's a kind of club organization where they cannot even show physically profit. So, because [01:06:30.484] all the profit must go back into the management of the rivers.
And we kept that because there were people together in the club, and their main goal was to have good fishing, not to have a profit out of it. And that was a kind of a really good solution to keep the waters in really good condition, meaning population of fish. And that's why when we changed to the capitalist or democratic state, we kept [01:07:00.213] that system on. So we have now 64 fishing clubs or families which are managing the smaller portions of rivers plus institute where I work, Fisheries Research Institute, who has about 10% more, I don't know, waters of special importance. Plus we as an institute, we make, or we write or we make together with the fishing clubs, the management plan for them. [01:07:30.228]
So they're not doing their own management plans. So somebody from the state should or overlooks what they're doing, suggesting them, and also they have regular controls and so on, so that we know what they're doing with the rivers. But the major difference comparing to the neighboring countries is that kind of system of management. And we see that this is okay mostly because we have relatively big pressure of fishermen [01:08:00.510] from these states, meaning Italy, Germany, Switzerland, and France. Fishermen are coming to our state to fish. That's why we have relatively strict rules, like I said, fly fishing only for trouts and railings and so on. Barbless hooks, only one fly on the fly fishing, not what you have, one in front one at the back and so on. So it's a basic thing, so rod, reel, fly [01:08:30.246] and one fly. And we have relatively high price of fishing licenses. So daily fishing license can cost up to 150 euros per day.
Tom: So, if someone comes to Slovenia, do they have to get a license for each club, for each area?
Miha: Yes. So there's no free fishing. So if you see a [01:09:00.774] river somewhere, and say, I want to fish there, you have to buy a license. So somebody manages it. Now, recently, this is much, much easier because before you have to go to, I don't know, closest inn or the post office and ask, oh, where can I buy the license? Now, it's mostly everything is done online. So actually, if you have a phone and you have a credit card, which is linked on the phone, you can do everything with the phone actually, you go on the [01:09:30.253] bridge, you see a nice fish, and you can actually, from the bridge, you can buy the license and go fishing.
So that's much, much easier. I think that's the same story, more or less around the Europe or the Alps is now the digitalization, or how should I say has come here too, and that on the other side means a little bit easier management because with online sale of licenses, you can [01:10:00.158] change some rules very rapidly or I don't know, you can monitor the pressure or things like that. So everything is much, much easier. The other side with that, we also control the river keepers, how effective they are and things like that.
Tom: So in contrast to say Italy or Switzerland, some of the rivers there can be totally private so that you cannot access them. And then [01:10:30.483] some of them are government state-owned, government owned...
Miha: I know for sure in Austria they have a kind of special lease program, so that, I don't know, a physical person can lease some part of the river from the state, and he manages for some years and he has to pay probably some concession to the state. But still you have some private waters where, I don't know, you have to stay in [01:11:00.189] an inn which is owned by the owner, and he allows you then to go fishing to his river, so to speak. And the same story is more or less in all our neighboring countries. So that's the biggest difference. Here in Slovenia, you have access practically to all rivers. So with no limitations, but buying fishing license. In other regions, probably you cannot just say, oh, that that's the nice river I wanna go fishing and [01:11:30.321] it can be private.
Tom: Okay. So the bottom line is Americans who wanna go fishing in the Alps need to do their homework first, right? They need to.
Miha: Yeah. Or, I don't know, they must get organized. I want to go fishing there, and they must first check who manages it and so on. It's a little bit more complicated, but I think with now with the exchange and internet and everything it's much, much easier. But that's a kind of [01:12:00.430] relatively big difference to the waters of Slovenia comparing to the neighboring waters meaning Italy, Austria, Switzerland, France, and Germany, which means Bavaria. I only know the Bavarian parts.
Tom: So in Slovenia you can really fish anywhere, but you need to get a license for that particular area.
Miha: Yeah, we don't line the sale of fishing license much, much easier. So to check if [01:12:30.952] that particular water is even a fishing area or if it's, I don't know, kind of a nursery streams or whatever. And, you know, on bigger rivers, we also have cyprinids fishing, so other types of fishing and the same stories with the lakes and so on. So with lakes, it's also with don't have private lakes and things like that. And also not to forget in our constitution, I think we have [01:13:00.569] a special Act where it's written that there must be a free access to the water body so somebody cannot fence the river or something like that. So you have to have some kind of access to the river because that's not worth, if I buy a fishing license and then I cannot access the river, I won't say that there's everywhere so, but actually you have the ways to approach the river without any problems, meaning trespassing or [01:13:30.833] whatever. So that's also kind of interesting reliced from the former system. So...
Tom: Yeah. Well, it sounds like a good system. It sounds like it's working well for you.
Miha: Yeah, I see that because we have to adapt to the why, first, the question was why we are getting so big or getting interest of fly fishermen from neighboring countries, and probably it's because we have relatively good [01:14:00.132] or healthy rivers. So not to forget is also that if you make a circle around Slovenia, meaning kind of 500 kilometers that basically, some big towns go into that circle. So meaning, I don't know, Milan, Munich, Vienna, that's all in the 5 kilometer zone, so to speak, so easily accessible by the car on the highway, and I don't know, couple of hours and you are here. And you know that this part, especially [01:14:30.535] northern part of Italy, Bavaria, Vienna is Austria. They're very well developed and there's a lot of fly fishermen who want to have quality fly fishing.
Tom: Yeah. Well, I have seen pictures of your rivers and they're certainly beautiful. The bottoms are beautiful. The water is a bluish color.
Miha: Yeah. If we talk a little bit wider, not just the Alpine area, we have [01:15:00.176] in the small areas, Slovenia is just 20,000 square kilometers, so it's not a big state, but we have a big variety of types of rivers. So meaning we don't have just Alpine streams, we also have, I don't know, typical English chalk streams like rivers, so slow running with weeds, you can wade in easily with no problem. And some other types of the rivers meaning we are talking about just trout rivers, so [01:15:30.622] which are kind of different.
So that's a kind of a big variation where you can, I don't know, every day you can fish in a little bit different environment with a little bit different fauna, meaning, I don't know, some other type of mayflies hatching there or caddis and things like that. So, and everything is in this small area, so it's easily accessible, but I think it's also one of advantages of fly fishing for trouts in Slovenia. [01:16:00.512]
Tom: Yeah. Well, I'm gonna have to work on setting up that hosted trip. because you've got me all excited now,
Miha: Definitely you should. So maybe just because I started with that Danube salmon, so the fish which is closely related to with taimen. So fishing for that fish is strictly regulated and it's a little bit different to generally fly fishing for salmonates[SP] [01:16:30.1274] because it's considered as the king of salmonates in this part of Europe. Also it's a spring spawner comparing to trouts, which are false spawner. That's why also the fishing season is completely and the different time, meaning the fishing season for that fish is during the winter. It starts in October and it ends in February because it's spawns then in springs and so on. And we [01:17:00.460] don't want to mix these two types of fishing, meaning general fly fishing for trouts, graylings and so on with the Danube salmon fishing, which is more controlled.
So we have, I don't know limited number of rods. Also limited number of fish to be taken per sectors of river. So all fish which are taken out of the river, not catch and release must be reported and so on and so on. So it's much closely monitored fishing for that [01:17:30.919] fish, but it's relatively now has become a kind of very popular during the winter time to fish for that fish. So because of its size and also because it's not so easy, it's not just you have the right I don't know, gear, right fly or streamer. It's not just that. You need a little bit of luck also, plus, I don't know, weather, water situation, weather situation [01:18:00.230] must be just the right one when this fish is, you know, kind of, then it'll take everything because they are big fish, you can see them, you can fish for them and they won't even move on your fly or whatever passing by.
But when they're in the feeding mode, they'll take everything. I don't know. If you throw a shoe in the water, they'll take it. They are so aggressive, you know. It's hard to say, but I saw that actually the smaller fish [01:18:30.343] are jumping out of the river meaning when they're chasing food. Not to forget this fish can grow up to the Slovenian record, I don't know, which is old now for 10, something like that. It's 1 meter, 32 centimeters and 37 kilos. So these are relatively big fish and they're just in the area of the, where all the rivers or the river [01:19:00.531] Danube River basin in the area there. And they are called also Danube salmon, but they're not typical salmons because they don't move. So then they stay at one place and they don't move at all.
We also did some scientific studies with Tact Fish, and we see that if they have a good conditions and also good spawning conditions, they stay in one place more or less. [01:19:30.308] Not to forget even in 1926, the minimum size to take was at that time already set at 70 centimeters. So even now it's even bigger, It's up to 90 centimeters. It is the minimum size to take that fish permanently out of the water. So because this fish can spawn after fourth year, and this is when they grow up to 40 and 50 [01:20:00.391] centimeters and then it's allowed that they can spawn up to, I don't know, two, three times and then they get into the zone of size to take.
So that's the general idea, but it's a kind of another type of fishing before it was mostly for that type of fishing was also allowed some spinning, but now it's fly fishing or streamer fishing has become very popular, especially in the relatively, a little bit smaller [01:20:30.456] rivers when you can easily reach them. In some bigger rivers, fly fishing is a little bit more complicated because with fly rods and streamers, you cannot come close or so close if you want. So with the new type of rods which are now used, so with the double-handed and so on, so that's a little bit easier to come close, but it's a big advantage if you see what's going on, how the [01:21:00.458] fish reacts on your streamer or your fly. So, I don't know, to change the tactics or change the flies or whatever. So mostly also this fish, you can see what your fishing for.
Tom: Now, what's the weather like in winter there? Is it...
Miha: In the Alpine area, it is so that we have typical, let's say winters, meaning [01:21:30.348] in the lower regions we have some snow in the wintertime, but up you go, meaning up the hills you go, it can go up to, I don't know, a couple of meters and even more. So mostly fishing it's then closed in the wintertime because also the spawning season of the majority of trouts, they start spawning mostly in November. And then when the [01:22:00.933] small fries coming out of the fertilized eggs, they need about 30 days. So it's pretty long time. So you have youngs when they start swimming, it's already January or February. So generally, the whole year of the starting season for trout species is March 1st.
Tom: Okay, good.
Miha: So it's closed for the winter.
Tom: Now can tourists come and fish for those salmon? Is it a lottery system to get a permit to fish for them? [01:22:30.302]
Miha: We don't have a lottery system as I remember. We don't have it. I was quite surprised or it was interesting when they introduced me how you have it in the States, for instance.
Tom: Yeah.
Miha: Even for hunting and so on, generally speaking. So mostly, it is so that you can buy a fishing license, maybe in some areas they will also want that you must fish in pairs. This is mostly because [01:23:00.869] of the safety reasons because it's a big fish, it's hard if you're alone, to release it properly, if you want to just catch and release not to harm it because it's, I don't know, meter long fish, it's hard to get it unhooked and so on especially in the winter.
Also in some areas especially if you're not a member of the club, it's a kind of mandatory that you have a guide with you to help you [01:23:30.652] with that. But generally speaking, there is no big kind of obstacles buying a license and go fishing only in some area it is so that, like I said earlier, it's closely monitored fishing. So if, for instance, I don't know, in one sectors there were six fish to take and they were already taken out, they can close the sector or, I don't know, allow just catch and release fishing.
Tom: Okay, interesting.
Miha: So many [01:24:00.357] fishing clubs have a kind of increasing measurement scale. So I don't know that if they have, I don't know, six fish to take. So the first two are 90 centimeters. The next two are, I don't know, 1 meter and the last two must be at least 1 meter and 10 to be taken out, so it's a kind of, every club has a little bit playground how the restrictions should apply. But generally speaking, there's no [01:24:30.571] restrictions, meaning, I don't know, if you are somebody coming as a tourist, if you have a proper guidance or if you ask around there shouldn't be any problems about getting, I don't know, a couple of fishing days for those fish.
So on the other side, it must be pointed out that they are kind of very dependent also on water and weather changes. So because [01:25:00.373] we as an institute, we are monitoring that, like I said, that fish caught and taken must be reported. And we are getting these reports and we see then, I don't know, on one day there was none or no fish was taken despite the fact many fishing licenses were sold. But next day, which is a little bit different, I don't know, three, four, five fish were caught. And then you start thinking, oh, what was the difference this day [01:25:30.763] in different rivers, not in just one river or things like that. And then you see that, I don't know, there must be something which triggers the fish to go into that more feeding pattern or something like that. So that's why it's a little bit more challenging fishing. So you cannot, I don't know, Atlantic, I only know Adriatic salmon, so it's a kind of also fishing for Atlantic salmon. You never know, you know, it's not 10 fish a day. [01:26:00.570]
Tom: Yeah. It sounds very much like Atlantic salmon fishing.
Miha: Yeah, it's a kind of challenging fishing. We also in Slovenia we call it, it's the fish of 1000 casts. So you have to keep casting and casting, and casting, you never know when what's going to happen next. So together, I'm that kind of person that I'd rather say that in advance, you know, that it's challenging because it's hard to get that kind of fish. [01:26:30.242]
Tom: All right.
Miha: I know a lot of people who have the beginner's luck, so that's, you know, like everywhere. They just came two cast and they caught the big fish and say, oh, you were telling me, oh, that's so hard. I got it. And then I'm embarrassed. So that's a kind of beginner's luck more or less.
Tom: Well, Miha, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to tell us about this because it's fascinating and definitely different from [01:27:00.357] what we in this part of the world are used to and it's very intriguing.
Miha: Yeah. I'm thankful to you because, you know, I think this kind of general, not rules, but general how everything is run here is so different to the States. I must point out I was only in Colorado fishing, but even when I was there, there was so much different, meaning, you know, from the management to the, I don't know, [01:27:30.706] basic fishing. For instance, in Slovenia there is also not allowed to fish from the boats. I fish from the river Colorado out of the boat, meaning, you know, and yeah, we're still kind of talking with I don't know ministries and we are kind of getting there to the fishing from the boats will be allowed someday I hope in the future. But so far, only in the lakes or reservoirs or that kind of water bodies fishing [01:28:00.382] from boats is allowed. From running water only belly boats, that's the biggest kind of boat you can have.
Tom: Interesting. Well that's just fascinating to hear about and...
Miha: Yeah, it's a small thing which make, I don't know, fishing in Europe a little bit more interesting comparing to the fishing in the States.
Tom: Yeah. And if you are interested in seeing this fishing, look up the Kirka River [01:28:30.396] Lodge. It's on the Orvis website and it sounds like May and June are the best times to go, but I'm sure that summer fishing is also productive. Maybe a little more difficult there.
Miha: Yeah, the idea about our Kirka River Lodge is so that we are 10 meters from the water. So actually, from the balcony you can reach the water meaning, but it's not kind of allowed, so to speak. But actually, we are just really, really close to the water. So you can go fishing [01:29:00.475] early in the morning or stay late or whatever. But also other idea is because we are so kind of placed in the middle of Slovenia close to the major highways so that even all other rivers are easily accessible meaning, I don't know, one hour of drive and you are in completely different environment, meaning, I don't know from this, like I said earlier, chalk stream like river, slow running and so on. In one hour of drive [01:29:30.181] you are on the typical Alpine river in the middle of the National park and things like that.
So that's a kind of advantage being small and easy access to that kind of waters. And also, like I said, we have that luck that beside the fact that we are small, but across the western part of Slovenia goes the divide between watershed systems. So we have both of these [01:30:00.342] fish, we were talking earlier, meaning on one side we have in the Adriatic River basin or Mediterranean River basin, and we have marble trouts and on the other side we have browns, and also this Danube salmon. So it can be kind of challenging because people were mixing this fish and bringing one to another watershed systems. But from the fisherman point of view, we have a bigger variety of fish to which can be challenged [01:30:30.068] or caught or fly fishing for.
Tom: Well, it sounds like a trip worth taking. Miha, I want to...
Miha: Definitely, you should come.
Tom: Okay. I want to thank you for taking the time to share all this...
Miha: No problem. It was my pleasure to explain you this, I don't know, facts about Alpine. The region of Europe for fly fishing mostly.
Tom: It's been very educational and thanks again. Thanks again, Miha.
Male Speaker: Thanks for listening to "The Orvis Fly-Fishing Podcast" [01:31:00.610] with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at