How to get Started in Trout Spey, with Pete Kutzer
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer, and my guest this week is a frequent guest on the podcast. It's the great Pete Kutzer, casting guru, the star of many casting videos on the web, on YouTube [00:00:30.879] and Orvis Learning Center, the Orvis Guide to Fly Fishing, lots and lots of places. And Pete is just a great teacher.
And what I wanted Pete to talk about today is trout spey and how to get into trout spey. Exactly what do you need for learning how to trout spey? Now trout spey is often not the most efficient way to catch a fish, [00:01:00.340] but it's arguably one of the most fun and enjoyable, and relaxing ways to catch a trout on a fly. And it's particularly good this time of year, you know, late fall, early winter when... And fish are still a little bit aggressive, but you need to cover a lot of water, and there are infrequent hatches or no hatches at all. So it's just a wonderful thing to do this time of year. And Pete really breaks it down [00:01:30.320] into the essentials. And so, if you've been curious about this kind of fishing, I think you'll really enjoy today's podcast.
And before we get into the Fly Box, just a product that I'm really fond of and I think is appropriate this time of year. A lot of people are going to be traveling over the winter to fly fish either in the southern hemisphere for trout [00:02:00.299] or maybe golden dorado or peacock bass. Or you might be traveling to a saltwater destination, a nice warm, sunny tropical destination, and you're going to have to carry some gear with you. And the best way I know of carrying fly fishing gear is the Carry-It-All.
The Carry-It-All is a piece of luggage that holds fly rods, fly reels, tippet, [00:02:30.240] leaders, just about anything you would want to take on a fly fishing trip other than your waders and your waiting boots. You can fit a pair of waders in one of these actually, but you can't fit a pair of waiting boots. But I have put up to, I think, 10 or 11 individual rods in one of these things and for one trip. I probably take more rods than most of you. But sometimes when I'm hosting a trip, I need to have extras [00:03:00.000] because people want to try a rod or I want to make sure that there's backups in case somebody breaks a rod. So I often carry a lot of rods, and I put my reels in there. I put my tippet in there. I usually stuff either my rain jacket or my waders in there because there's room for that stuff. And it helps to kind of cushion the fly reels. But it's just a great piece of luggage.
And although a lot of people carry this on because they're worried [00:03:30.139] about arriving and having their rods there, I check mine. I nearly always check mine. I have never had a rod broken. You don't need to carry the rods in their tubes. You just put them in there, and they're well protected in this thing. And so far, no baggage handler has ever broken a rod and a reel. I shouldn't say that because I'm going to jinx myself. But people do carry it on.
And whether you can take it onto the plane with you, you really [00:04:00.080] have to check when you check in because it is longer than the... I think it's longer than the standard overhead piece. And what I see often is as people get in the plane, they ask if they can put it in the coat closet up front. And I've never seen a flight attendant refuse somebody. So that's a good way to do it. But you need to [00:04:30.000] before you check in, or when you're checking in, you need to ask them if you can carry it on, just to make sure, because each airline is going to have different rules. But again, I check mine, never have a problem with it. It's just a great piece.
And the really good thing is that there are two sizes. The medium takes up to 9-foot-4-piece rods. And the large takes up to 11-foot-4-piece rods. They are both on sale from now until probably [00:05:00.399] the first of the year at $100 off. That's an incredible deal. So if you're looking for a way to carry your rods easily and safely, look into the Orvis Carry-It-All.
All right, enough with the commercials. Let's do the Fly Box. And the Fly Box is where you ask me questions, and I either answer it or try to find an answer for you if I can. You can [00:05:30.019] send me your question in my email box at
Now, don't ask me where to go fishing or [00:06:00.120] what flies to take in a certain place, because believe it or not, I haven't been everywhere and I don't personally know the situation in a lot of fisheries. The best place to go for that is the Orvis Travel Department. They can tell you where to go. They can give you advice on where to go, what time of year, and what kind of gear to take.
All right, let's start the Fly Box with a phone call [00:06:30.356] this week.
Drew: Hey, Tom, it's Drew from Northern Vermont. Hey, I had a question about scuds. You know, I just don't really... I know what they are, but I don't really know much about when and how to fish them. I've had them in my box for as long as I've been fly fishing. Tied some myself, but I just rarely tie 'em on. So I was wondering when you fish them, if you fish them much. And I should say I'm predominantly [00:07:00.220] a trout fisherman. That's the context I'm thinking of using them. So, yeah, just would love to hear your thoughts on the world of scuds. Thanks so much.
Tom: Well, Drew, you may not see many scuds in Northern Vermont because what I've seen of the Northern Vermont rivers, and I've fished them quite a bit, is that they're not very alkaline. They're fairly acidic and fairly low fertility. And you may [00:07:30.399] occasionally find scuds in weed beds or around springs, but they're probably not that common where you fish. So, you know, if they aren't that common... You know, a scud can look like a caddis pupa. They can even look like a mayfly and have a scud imitation. We don't know what fish take them for. But if you're looking to imitate a scud, you're going to need to look toward more of spring creek waters [00:08:00.519] or tailwaters.
Tailwaters and spring creek waters have a lot more fertility, a lot more calcium in the water. And these are little crustaceans, and they need calcium in the water to build their shells. And a lot of the Northern Vermont rivers are fairly low in calcium and other minerals. So I'm not surprised that it's not a good fly up there, but where they are common, fish eat them a lot. They don't hatch out. They're in the water all the time because they're a crustacean [00:08:30.000] and fish get to them, and they're very high energy. You know, they're high in fats and proteins, so fish like to eat them.
And my best luck with scuds has been early in the morning on spring creeks and tailwaters. Fish seem to come out and look for these things early in the morning. I mean, they'll feed on them all day long if they can get to them. But they seem to come out and hunt them early in the morning. [00:09:00.495] And you occasionally see a fish actually grabbing a hunk of weed, a hunk of aquatic weed, and shaking it, and then dropping back and eating the scuds that come out of the hunk of weed. And they'll come in quite shallow looking for these things, and that's the best time. But, you know, almost any time of day because the scuds are there all the time. I think they may be more active early in the morning. That may be why. You know, they may be swimming around [00:09:30.100] instead of hiding in the weeds early in the morning. But that's when I find the best fishing for them.
And it's mostly a dead-drift game. You know, and it's often a no indicator, no dry dropper situation where you actually see the fish and you cast to the fish, and you watch the fish's body language or reaction because they're generally in clear, shallow water when they're eating these things, and an indicator [00:10:00.299] or dry dropper will sometimes spook them. You need to be really precise. You need to get the fly down to the fish and need to be a little sneaky. So, you know, try it. Try naked nymphing for these, and if you can see the fish, observe the fish. I don't blind fish scuds that often. I like to use them where I can see a fish in shallow water. So that's how I fish them anyway.
All right, let's do [00:10:30.159] an email. The first one's from Aaron from Shreveport. "Just went down to Galveston last week, and as per usual, some new problem pops up, and I'm hoping you can shed some light. I was fishing for redfish around some really shallow oyster bars and kept getting hung up on nearly every other cast. I was primarily using redfish crack flies I tied for this trip. They worked pretty well other than getting stuck on the oysters. I have two questions. Do weed guards help with this problem on oysters and rocks, or do they really only help [00:11:00.379] with not snagging weeds and grass? I didn't put weed guards on these flies.
Second question is one of the flies got the point of the hook kind of bent over from the oyster snags. Not dull, but the very tip literally bent. Is this hook now done for, or should I try to sharpen it? I would throw it away if it were a simple fly pattern, but these flies take a lot of work to make, so I'd like to save it. As always, thank you for the great podcast and thank you for taking the time to answer our questions."
Well, Aaron, [00:11:30.320] that's a couple of great questions. First of all, yes, weed guards can help you from getting stuck on oysters. I use weed guards in the Bahamas a lot where there's a lot of limestone. It's a similar situation where you have a sharp object sticking up from the bottom. And they will to some degree keep you from getting caught on oysters and rocks. You know, you have to deal with [00:12:00.139] the fact that you may not hook quite as many fish with a weed guard on it. So it's always a judgment call on whether to use a weed guard or not.
And the best advice I can give you is to put weed guards on all your flies. Sounds like you're a fly tier. Put weed guards on all your flies, and you can always cut them off. And you don't want a super stiff weed guard. [00:12:30.049] You just want a couple pieces of monofilament that stick up just beyond the point of the hook. So if that fish slides into a rock or an oyster, there's a little bit more of a chance that it won't hang up. So I think you should use them. I think you should put them on all your flies and, you know, cut them off if you feel like they're not working for you. Or if you go into a muddy or sandy area and you don't need them, then you can just cut them off.
Regarding that hook. [00:13:00.500] That's a good question. This happens to me frequently, and I will often just take my fingernail and bend the tip back. Or you can even use a pair of... I wouldn't use pliers, actually. If you can bend it back with your finger, chances are it might be okay. But, you know, you've already bent that metal, and there's probably a weak point in it. So, [00:13:30.000] I would bend it back, and I would sharpen it, resharpen it. But just know that that fly is suspect. You know, the point's been bent. The point might not hold. So try it, but don't blame me if you lose a fish when the point breaks.
Here's an email from Orrin. "I hope this message finds you well. [00:14:00.420] I have a few questions about New England fishing I was hoping you could answer. I'm from Washington State, but I have family in Massachusetts and New Hampshire, who I love to go fishing with every summer. This year we're seeing them for Christmas, and I was wondering if there were any striper opportunities this time of year. I don't feel great about taking our dinghy out, so we'd primarily be fishing from the rocks. But if you think surf casting is better, we have a couple beaches as well as a sandspit in the area we can get to.
Are we wasting our time fishing for stripers this time of year? Are there [00:14:30.059] specific conditions we should look for to maximize our chances? I'd also be interested in any patterns you think would work the best, as I love to tie some for my uncle for Christmas. My family also has a place in New Hampshire by the Vermont border where there is a tiny creek, most of it less than 5 feet wide and 1 to 2 feet deep, that I've caught little brook trout in. Assuming it doesn't freeze over, how would you suggest I target these fish at all? They are self-sustaining through the winter, but if you think it's best not to target them at all, I am open [00:15:00.080] to doing so. Though I would appreciate any river you'd be willing to point me in the general direction as potential alternative, as I'd love to get on my first ever brown trout this trip. Thanks again for the podcast."
Well, Orrin, as I said at the beginning, I'm not a travel agent, and I'm not going to suggest some streams for you to fish. You're going to have to do that research yourself. But regarding striper fishing in the wintertime, it's a real iffy thing. [00:15:30.139] There are some striped bass that stay along the coast, and you'll want to be near an estuary because some of these fish we suspect are overwintering and even spawning in some of the larger rivers in New England. But it's going to be really tough, and the chances of seeing a striper are kind of iffy.
I know people do fish them [00:16:00.580] in Long Island Sound around power plants where there's a warm water outflow. So if there's any place near where you're going where there's some kind of warm water outflow, there might be a chance of catching a striper there. But I think that it's really going to be pretty difficult to target stripers that time of year. Most of them have moved down into the Chesapeake or into the Hudson, or into the Housatonic, some of the bigger rivers [00:16:30.059] for the winter.
Regarding that little, tiny creek. Yeah, you can fish it during the winter. It's not going to be easy. Again, New England fishing in the wintertime is really not that great. Honestly, it's not that great. You can target them, but just know that the New Hampshire trout season is from January 1st to October 15th. So if you're fishing [00:17:00.039] around Christmastime, that's going to be illegal. You can't fish in rivers from January 1st to October 15th. There are some exceptions, but the smaller streams, I am sure, fall under general regulations. So you got to wait till January 1st to fish for those fish. And they're done spawning. On a warm day, the water temperature might warm up enough. I would fish either a nymph or a little tiny streamer. But again, [00:17:30.317] it's going to be tough. If you just want to get out, I would do it, but it's going to be tough either way, both for the striper fishing and the brook trout fishing at that time of year.
Here's an email from Gary from Florida. "What can you tell me about the Orvis Boron rods of the '80s? I built an 8-foot-9-inch 7-weight from an Orvis blank and used it for years on Michigan steelhead with a slinky rig and a running line with a yellow fluorescent [00:18:00.339] butt section for the tippet. Looking back, that rigging was pretty near to being a heavily weighted version of Euro nymphing and the yellow fluorescent leader section a sighter. Why did Orvis issue those rods, and why were they withdrawn?"
That's a good question, Gary. Yeah, Orvis in the '80s built a boron graphite. It wasn't pure boron. It was a boron graphite mix. And boron is a much stiffer... [00:18:30.389] It's a strong but a much stiffer material. And those rods were super stiff. They were super fast and super stiff. They were also really, really strong. And you probably know, you have to be a strong caster to cast those things. Honestly, the way you talk about fishing with a slinky rig, I think a slower rod would have been a better choice for doing [00:19:00.140] that kind of stuff.
But anyway, they were built in the '80s. They were really stiff. And there was a craze around boron for a while, using boron in rods. And some people made some solid boron rods that were very interesting. And Orvis made a boron graphite. A number of other manufacturers made a boron graphite. But it really, there's lots of things you can do [00:19:31.359] with graphite fiber and with the various epoxies that are used to hold the graphite fibers together that really negated the need for boron. And Boron was also a very expensive material to use. So they didn't sell, and honestly, they weren't the greatest rods. Big, powerful, stiff rods. Some people loved them, but most people [00:20:00.140] had a lot of trouble casting them.
Mikael: Hello there, Tom, and all you members of the fly fishing community. My name is Mikael, and I live in the south of Sweden. And I truly enjoy listening to the podcast. In the episode about how to become a better wader, your guest, Lindsay Kocka, talked about natural movement, breathing, and mindfulness. That was really interesting. And since I practice Aikido, that is the traditional Iwama style of Aikido, [00:20:30.099] I could relate to much of it. I would like to give a tip that I believe could be of great help when you're wading or bushwhacking in rough terrain. And that is to visit the local Judo dojo and ask if they have some kind of classes on falling safely.
In Sweden, there is a certified program called Judo for Balance that, in a controlled environment, teaches exercises to improve balance, strength, and how to fall to prevent injury. As I said, I practice Aikido [00:21:00.359], and some of my daughters and friends have practiced Judo, Jujutsu, and such. And most of us have taken some really hard falls on asphalt or in the terrain that could have ended badly. But all we got was bruises and pain. And bruises are better than breaking the wrist of your casting hand or hitting the back of your head on rocks while falling when you step into the river.
It is worth looking into. It builds confidence and can reduce your medical bill, especially if you, like me, are in the age between playful youth and [00:21:30.119] grumpy old man. I think this can be a good compliment to what Lindsay covers during her courses. Have a good one, Tom. Take care. And I'm looking forward to the next podcast.
Tom: Well, Mikael, thank you for that tip. We really didn't talk about what to do when you fall. We kind of talked about how to prevent falls. But that is a really good suggestion. And, you know, falling, I guess, is an art. [00:22:00.390] Falling properly without injury is a real art and skill. So those are great suggestions, and I want to thank you for the tip.
Here's an email from Connor. "I am rather new to the wonderful sport of fly fishing. However, I've taken a great love to it. Moreover, as always, thanks for the wonderful podcast and advice that Orvis willingly shares. Onto my question. I'm interested in purchasing a rod and line for saltwater and larger fish in freshwater [00:22:30.700], though I would prefer to get only one rod. These are the fish that I'm interested in going for: bonefish, juvenile tarpon, baby tarpon, redfish, giant trevally, pike, musky, triggerfish, snook, and dorado. I was looking at a 9-foot-9-weight or a 9-foot-10-weight with S.A. Grand Slam Infinity Salt or clear tip tarpon line. The rod that I was looking at was a clear water. Thanks for any help that you can afford in giving me [00:23:00.119] in tight lines."
Well, Connor, I think for all but two of those species, a 9-weight is a pretty good rod. I don't think you're going to be happy with the 9-weight fishing for GTs, for giant trevally, and for musky. Those fish require very large flies and sometimes very, very quick and long casts. And although you could do it, you're probably going to kill yourself trying to use that 9-weight. [00:23:30.380] But, you know, for your bonefish with a long leader, a 9-weight is okay. Juvenile tarpon, perfect. Baby tarpon, perfect. Redfish, good, perfect. Pike, triggerfish, snook, dorado, 9-weight's good.
A 10-weight, you know, if you're going to go toward the bigger species like the tarpons and the dorado, a 10-weight wouldn't be a bad option either. I would say either/or, but I think a 9-weight [00:24:00.019] is going to be a bit more versatile for you and a bit more fun than a 10-weight. So that's what I would get. But if you're talking GTs and musky, I think you're going to have to look for a second rod, you know, something like an 11 or even a 12-weight.
Here's an email from John. "This first question is a bit delinquent from the knots episode a while back. I was surprised that my [00:24:30.119] favorite knot for small flies, the Davy, didn't even get a mention. It seems like it could come into play several times in that episode. One, when the question about waste tippet came up, the Davy, if done right, yields the least amount of waste from my experience since you don't pull on the tag. This not only yields less waste pollution but will save you some re-rigging if you are using a tag, as you won't lose as much of the tag each time you change flies.
Two, regarding the discussion of variability of knots [00:25:00.099] and how the twisting is typically where they break. Again, the Davy seems to have an advantage since it is so simple with minimal tippet twisting.
Three, how setting the knot affects strength variability. Once again, the Davy has an advantage as you only pull on one end and there is little of the pigtailing you can get with knots like the clinch. My bet is that the Davy may not be the strongest knot, but likely the least variable. So my question is, why no mention? Is it [00:25:30.079] just not deemed worthy compared to the others or simply an oversight?
A second question is about Dorsey or wool-style indicators. I've now tried several brands and several techniques for attaching to the leader, but virtually always abandon them in favor of a hard-style bobber as the wool style, meaning I've tried synthetic too, always ends up getting swamped. Are there some tips for types of material, brands, how to connect them to the leader, types of water to use them in, float and application, etc., that you can share? [00:26:00.160] I like the idea of a softer presentation, but if it doesn't float, it isn't much good."
Well, John, regarding your first question about the Davy knot, I'm surprised you're the first one to mention that because every time I do something on knots, I always get an email or a comment, "But what about the Davy knot?" And if you remember that podcast, we weren't talking [00:26:30.200] about which knots were better. We were just talking about how to tie knots and what happens when knots fail.
And the Davy knot is apparently a great knot. I know a lot of people talk about it, and a lot of people use it, and I think it's a great knot. I just don't use it, and I don't think Robert Ketley used it because we just were happy with the clinch knot. But there are a lot of good knots for tying on a fly. There's the [00:27:00.180] Orvis knot, which is a great knot. I don't know how to tie that one either. But, you know, there are dozens and dozens of good knots for tying on a fly. And I always tell people whatever knot you choose... Pick a knot to tie on a fly. Whatever knot you choose, learn to tie it well, learn to tie it quickly. And if you're happy with the Davy knot, then I would just go right ahead and use it. There's [00:27:30.180] nothing wrong with it, and I've heard a lot of good things about it, and someday I'll try it. But right now I'm just happy with my standard clinch knot. For freshwater anyway. Saltwater is a different story.
Regarding the Dorsey or wool-style indicators, you know, they all float okay. And you're right, they're not going to float all day, and they're going to sink after a while. But I prefer [00:28:00.039] that kind of indicator because it lands softer. I think they're more sensitive. I think you can see strikes easier with a wool-style because you can see every little tick of the bottom or, you know, it may turn sideways or twitch a little bit when a fish is taking the fly. So I like them.
Here's what I do. And, you know, I can fish one for probably two or three hours before I need [00:28:30.019] to change it. So, first, I put either a liquid or a paste fly floatant on the yarn. Rub it in really well. I like the Orvis Fly Dip. It leaves kind of a film, and I expect that it's probably silicone. Once the solvent dries, it leaves kind of a film on it. And that'll float really well for a while. And then it's going to start to sink. You know, it's gradually going to [00:29:00.180] absorb some water.
And what I do then is I take it out and I flick it with, you know, one of those rubber band deals or just blow on it to dry it off. And then I dip it in indesicant powder, you know, the white powder that you use to retreat a dry fly. And then, you know, I'll get another hour or so at least, and then I might have to retreat it again. But you know, you definitely want to put floatant on those yarn indicators. You don't [00:29:30.140] want to use them all by themselves because all those materials are going to absorb some water for sure. So, you know, just try a couple of different kinds of fly floatant and definitely a desiccant powder after it starts to sink. And I think you'll be happier with your yarn indicators.
Here's an email from Jake from Boston. "I don't get how to present a dry fly downstream. I'm a great caster, feel really confident, but I don't get how to cast downstream [00:30:00.160] and feed line without disrupting the drift. Maybe it's just that I need practice, which I'll keep doing, but can you explain how you present a delicate drive downstream and feed line? The only thing that lets me get a long, undisrupted drift is drag and drop. But then I'm dragging the fly line over the top of the fish anyway, so that defeats the whole purpose. I just can't seem to cast downstream and feed line without moving my dry fly a little bit. I guess sometimes I can make it work, but the drifts are super short.
[00:30:30.980] This actually reminds me of another question for you. I remember you saying that when you fish dries, you're aiming for a small window right in front of the fish. When you fish dries while wade fishing, are you always trying to keep it short and target one or two specific rising fish? Maybe I just need to stop trying to get long drag-free drifts and focus on short drifts to specific fish."
Yeah, Jake, really, I think you got it. When you're [00:31:00.039] dry fly fishing, you're seldom going to get a long drift that isn't going to eventually drag. No matter what you do. No matter if you throw a slack into it, if you do a reach cast. Whatever you do, eventually that fly is going to drag because the line is going to catch up with it. The line and the leader drift faster than the fly because they have a little more mass and they get caught by the current a little quicker.
So yeah, [00:31:30.160] you know, when fishing downstream, you're not going to get a long drift. What I like to do, rather than feeding line, and I have a fishing buddy, Shawn Combs, the Orvis rod designer, loves to feed line. In fact, I saw one day on the Delaware, I think just to get to me because I was telling him to drill the fish and we were fishing downstream from a boat. And I was telling him [00:32:00.140] to just drill the fish and put it, you know, a foot or so above the fish's head. And he was shaking line out. And at one point he shook enough line out to get into his backing. I think he just did it to be funny. And he rose a fish, and of course he missed it because there's no way he could set the hook.
So, I don't think you want to strive for a long drift. And so, you know, if you want to feed line, [00:32:30.541] a couple things you can do. One is to throw a little curve into your cast. Don't cast straight downstream, but throw a little curve and then feed line by pointing your rod tip downstream and just gently shaking your rod tip back and forth, and feeding line through the guides. But it's not going to last that long. And I think that with a downstream drift, the best thing you can do is target one individual fish [00:33:00.480] and concentrate on getting a couple of feet of drift over that fish. Period. And then just let the fly swing out below the fish. Hopefully, it's not going to drag in front of the fish too much. Let the fly swing out. Gently pick it up and put it back.
I don't think you should strive for a long downstream drift. It's just not going to work. And the drag and drop, if you're dragging and dropping pretty close to the fish [00:33:30.546] that's not a good plan. What you want to do if you're going to drag and drop, in other words, you're going to cast beyond and upstream of the fish, you want to be well upstream of that fish and drag your fly line across when it's way above the fish, you know, like 10 feet above the fish. And then drop the rod tip, maybe mend a couple of couple of little mends in the line, and then feed some line. [00:34:00.099] But you want to drag it well upstream of the fish. So downstream dry fly fishing is tougher for sure. And again, don't expect to get a long drift. I don't think you should strive for that.
Gilbert: Hi, Tom. This is Gilbert from Northern New York. I'm looking forward to some steelhead fishing this winter. I've got a 10-foot-8-weight clear water rod and reel with a floating fly line. Now, I've heard a little bit about Skagit and Scandi. [00:34:30.719] I don't understand what those are. Is that something you can tell me about? Is it something I add to the floating fly line, or is it something separate altogether?
Also, I have a spare reel with some sink tip line on it, but it's a 7-weight. I'm wondering how well that would work on the 8-weight rod, or would I be better off putting say like a polyleader on the floating fly line in order [00:35:00.039] to get my flies down? Anyway, I appreciate any information you can spare. Thanks for that, buddy.
Tom: So Gilbert, I think you're going to be really happy with this podcast because I think it's going to answer a lot of your questions about using that 10-foot-8-weight with the two-handed rods or spey casts or whatever you want to call them. Now, I think you can use a 7-weight sink tip [00:35:30.280] on your 8-weight rod. It's going to be a little bit harder to cast because the rod isn't going to bend as much as it should. But that is definitely not going to work if you're going to do two-handed casts. It's just, you know, it's not going to bend the rod enough to build up some energy so that you can do a snap-T or a double spey.
So, my suggestion is to get, if you want to use that 10-foot-8-weight and you want to do [00:36:00.039] some spey casts, my suggestion is you get one of those Scientific Anglers Spey Lite Integrated Skagit lines. You want the 300 grain size for your 8-weight, and you want an 8-foot TC tip. If you go into the Scientific Anglers website, you go into Fly Shop. They can either, hopefully, they have it in the shop. Otherwise, they could probably order it for you from Scientific Anglers. But those are what you want [00:36:30.179] for swinging with that rod.
And, you know, you really can't... You can buy just a Skagit head, but the problem is you're going to need some kind of running line. You need a thin running line behind that Skagit head. And, you know, your regular floating fly line is not going to shoot through the guides as well as a running line. So, if you really want to practice the spey cast and you want to [00:37:00.019] use that kind of stuff, you probably need to go with a...and I would suggest for your part of the world, a 300-grain Skagit and an 8-foot TC tip, and I think you're going to be happy with that.
All right. Speaking of spey casts. Let's go talk to Pete Kutzer about trout spey. My guest today is the great Pete Kutzer, and Pete for a lot of us is our [00:37:30.099] go-to guru on casting. You, out there in the podcast listener world through videos, and I'm lucky enough to fish with Pete occasionally. And so I get casting lessons from Pete every time I go out. And, you know, I hate to do that, but he's so good.
And what we want to talk about today is trout spey, because trout spey is something that's becoming more popular, but it's confusing. [00:38:00.579] And what I've asked Pete to do is come on today and first talk about exactly what you need to start fishing with a trout spey outfit. And then we'll go into some other geeky stuff for those of you who are already into trout spey. But first of all, we're going to start with the basics.
So, Pete, I want you to pretend that I know nothing about [00:38:30.039] trout spey, which is not far from the truth. You've seen me trout spey fishing. So, tell me, what do I need, Pete? Give me a rod and a reel, and a line, and all the stuff that I need to start playing around with trout spey.
Pete: Sure. Sure. So I mean, the first question I always ask somebody, or maybe you should ask yourself is: "What is trout spey, and why should I [00:39:00.039] give it a shot?" Well, trout spey, you know, or just small two-handed rods, they're a lot of fun to fish with. So with the smaller two-handed rods, you know, why you want to maybe do it is one: you want to try a new technique or a different technique. You know, maybe you're tired of fishing a strike indicator or a bobber. You know, you just want to enjoy the surroundings a little bit more. That's one of the reasons why I really like to use these small, two-handed rods.
[00:39:30.607] And the other reason is perhaps you want to practice for that upcoming steelhead trip or salmon trip. And I think that sometimes gets overlooked. You know, a lot of times when folks go steelhead fishing or salmon fishing and they're using two-handed rods, they might only bring them out once a season or once a year for that trip. And I think practicing or using these trout spey rods is a great way to hone your skills or practice [00:40:00.280] for that upcoming salmon or steelhead trip. You know, like I say, in every podcast we do practice, practice, practice, practice, practice. The last thing you want to do is bring out that two-handed rod for the first time on that, you know, exciting, you know, triple-lifetime steelhead or salmon trip. So trout spey is a great way to kind of hone those skills, like I was saying.
And so, those are some of the reasons why I like to trout spey. One, the casting is a lot of fun. [00:40:30.721] Two, you really get to enjoy the surroundings. You know, you can make that cast and then almost just kind of forget about it because when a fish grabs that fly, you're going to feel it. So you don't have to be like hyper-focused on a strike indicator or a bobber, you know, or a sighter. You can just kind of look around, you know, or if you were dry fly fishing.
Now, I'm going to be honest though, before I go too far. When I'm trout fishing, I'm almost always using [00:41:00.000] a trout spey rod now, unless there's a good hatch going on. And you can even use a trout spey rod when you're dry fly fishing. You can skate some flies if you have a caddis hatch, things like that. But, you know, I like to use that trout spey rod all the time now, spring, summer, winter, fall. You know, whenever the water levels are right. If I'm on a medium-size or a large-size river, I'm usually bringing a dry fly rod and a trout spey rod.
Tom: Huh, interesting. So, [00:41:30.119] you're swinging soft tackles and nymphs more often than you're fishing with an indicator and stuff when you're fishing subsurface?
Pete: Correct. Yeah. I just, you know, I got it for a while and I was using indicators a lot, and I just kind of got over it a little bit, and I found myself not enjoying the surroundings as much. And that's the fun thing about the trout spey stuff is you make that nice cast, you set your swing up, and then you can kind of look around, enjoy the surroundings a little bit more [00:42:00.079], in my opinion.
Tom: So, are you going to become a birdwatcher, Pete?
Pete: Maybe, maybe, maybe.
Tom: A birder, I should say.
Pete: A birder. Yeah.
Tom: A birder. Yeah.
Pete: A birder. But so for the trout spey setups or, you know, the rods, there's a couple different sizes. There's trout spey rods as light as like a 2-weight. I think there might even be a 1-weight out there, but 2-weights, 3-weights, 4-weights, and probably 5-weights. So these trout spey rods, they're quite a bit different than your normal single-handed rod. [00:42:30.119] The lines are a bit different, and it can get very confusing and very, very overwhelming. I think if someone's going to start in that trout spey world, that first rod that you should look at is probably in the 3-weight or the 4-weight size. I think those are probably the most versatile, the easier ones to cast.
Tom: Okay. Give me one.
Pete: Give you one?
Tom: I want to fish smaller streamers and soft hackles.
Pete: So, smaller streamers and soft...
Tom: One rod. One rod.
Pete: I would probably go with a [00:43:00.079] 3-weight then, if you want to fish those soft hackles and smaller streamers.
Tom: Okay. And which one are you going to recommend to me?
Pete: A 3-weight.
Tom: Yeah, but what model?
Pete: What model?
Tom: The Mission?
Pete: The Mission, of course.
Tom: And what length is that? Eleven feet?
Pete: Eleven-foot-4-inches.
Tom: Okay. Eleven-foot-4-inch 3-weight. That's what I'm going to start with.
Pete: Yep.
Tom: Okay.
Pete: So I would get that Mission in an 11-foot-4-inch 3-weight. And then we make a reel called [00:43:30.019] the SSR. Swing, Step, Repeat is what that SSR stands for. And we make it in a small trout spey size. I forget the exact size. If it's like a three or a two or a three, something like that. I'm not sure, but there is the smallest size Mission reel will work just fine. You can use other reels as well. The challenge can sometimes be with the running line. So in the trout spey world, there's essentially, I mean, there's multiple different [00:44:00.159] types of lines, but the two I really like to focus on are a Scandi-style line or a Skagit-style line.
Tom: Okay. And I'm going to want you to...
Pete: And I'm going to pick one. I'm going to pick one.
Tom: Okay. But I'm also going to want you to explain the difference between them and when you would use one and the other.
Pete: Absolutely. So, with these two lines, your Scandi-style lines and your Skagit-style lines. Think of your Scandi-style line as similar to your normal floating 5-weight [00:44:30.360] trout line. It's a great line that'll turn over small flies very, very well. You would dry-fly fish with it. You can fish some small streamers with it. You can swing wet flies with it. You can do basically anything. It's a very, very versatile line.
Tom: And it's more delicate, right, than a Scandi?
Pete: Correct. Or than a Skagit.
Tom: And a Skagit. Yeah. So this is going to be my lower water summertime...
Pete: Correct.
Tom: ...two-handed line? Okay.
Pete: Correct. The Scandi lines, they're a lot of fun. You can just take a regular 9-foot-5-X leader [00:45:00.763] and put it right on that line, and you're good to go.
Tom: Okay. And what was I going to ask you? Oh, you can also just overhead cast this line if you want, right?
Pete: Correct. Yeah. You can overhead cast both of the lines. But the Skagit line, I want you to think of a Skagit line as an incomplete line. It's missing a piece. Skagit lines, you want to add a tip to it. [00:45:30.079] You're always going to put some form of a tip. So the tip would be, think of a sink tip line. An integrated sink tip line usually has a 5-10-foot sinking section built into the fly line. Well, your Skagit head is like that line, except that sink tip is chopped off.
Tom: It's missing.
Pete: It's missing. So you have to put that sink tip on. Or you could put an intermediate tip, a floating tip. You could put any variety of tip [00:46:00.019] on there. Your Skagit setup is a little bit more useful for a little bit larger streamers, you know, something with a bead head on it. Maybe it's a heavy woolly bugger or there's a whole host of flies. And I'm going to talk about a couple of flies here in a second. But you want to add some kind of a tip.
Tom: You have to add some kind of tip.
Pete: Yeah. You have to add some form of a tip to the end of that Skagit head. So on your Scandi setup, you can run just a regular nylon leader, [00:46:30.420], you know, or fluorocarbon leader, or just monofilament leader. You know, somewhere in that 9 to 12 foot in length.
Tom: And you want a tapered leader on the Scandi line?
Pete: Correct. Yeah. You want to use a tapered leader on that Scandi setup. That's going to give you good turnover. It's going to roll that fly out there and present it to those fish. When you're fishing with your Skagit setup, you're going to attach a very short leader to that tip that you've also attached [00:47:00.119] to that Skagit head. And I know that gets a little confusing because we start talking about all sorts of different types of lines.
Tom: Yep. Yep. But you're going to tell me exactly what to get, right?
Pete: Correct. I think the easier line of the two to cast, unfortunately, is probably that Skagit line. It's a little bit easier to cast. That Skagit line, it's a little bit shorter. It's a little bit heavier. It just loads up that rod a little bit easier. If you want to fish [00:47:30.059], you know, smaller wet flies and things like that, maybe you put on that intermediate tip or a floating tip on the end of it, and you can almost turn it into a little bit of a Scandi line or a Scandi-type line. I think that Skagit line is just a little bit easier to cast. My personal preference is the Scandi line, though. I like the Scandi line. I'm a casting nerd, and so I like to cast that Scandi line. You can do some different casts with those [00:48:00.139] Scandi lines, but I think the Skagit line is probably the easiest one to use.
Tom: Okay. Now, if you want to fish a sinking tip on a Scandi line, then you would use one of those sonar tips?
Pete: You would want to use a polyleader.
Tom: A polyleader, like the sonar tips.
Pete: I think some of the sonar tips are for the Skagit setups. I could be wrong on this, but a tip is going to go [00:48:30.119] on a Skagit line, you can put...and it's always going to go on a Skagit line, a sink tip. Or some kind of a tip. It could be a floating tip. On a Scandi line, you can run a regular nylon leader or a polyleader. And polyleaders do sink. Or some of the polyleaders do sink. I tend to run the trout-size polyleaders. They're typically around 7.5 feet long. And then I add a piece of tippet onto the end of that polyleader. Two to 3 feet of tippet.
Tom: [00:49:00.646] Level tippet in this case?
Pete: Level tippet, correct. Yeah. Like three X, four X, things like that. On the Skagit tip, you're just going to add that level section of tippet. Three X or four X. So, your 3-weight trout spey setup, you want to run that Skagit head. If you're getting started, that's the easiest one to start casting with and practicing with. In that Scandi setup though, it's also a great line [00:49:30.119] to practice with. And there's going to be some folks out there that are going to probably disagree with this, and they're going to say go with the Scandi setup. It's entirely up to you. The Scandi lines or the Skagit lines. But what also gets really, really confusing with the trout spey setup is what size line do I put on that rod?
Tom: Yes, because a 3-weight line, we don't talk 3-weight, right? We talk in grains...
Pete: Correct.
Tom: ...when we're talking two-handed.
Pete: [00:50:00.539] Correct.
Tom: It's a confusing system, but it's what we got and what we're, for the time being, stuck with, right?
Pete: Correct. Yeah. The grain windows. So all these rods have what we call grain windows. So they have a range of lines that they'll cast really well. And it's entirely up to you what grain windows you want for your rod. But there is a range that you should try to stick to. [00:50:30.739] Now, if you go a little high on that grain window size, it's almost like if you were throwing an overweighted fly line on your rod, it might load that rod a little bit more, make it be a little bit easier to cast, you know, at shorter distances. If you underline that rod, it might cast a little bit more off the tip of the rod. You know, as long as you stay in that range, though, you're going to be in good shape.
And the way I like to look at it is if you had a 2-weight [00:51:00.628] trout spey rod, you're going to fish with a line that's going to be around 200 grains. Okay? Somewhere in there. It could be 180. It could be 220. Your Skagit lines are typically going to be a little bit on the heavier side, so maybe 200 or a little bit more. Your Scandi lines are going to be around 200 or just a little bit less, maybe down to 180 grains for that.
Tom: All right. So, you're recommending a 3-weight for me, right?
Pete: Correct.
Tom: Okay. So, [00:51:30.019] what line do I need to start?
Pete: Somewhere in that 250 grain range.
Tom: Okay. So a 250-grain Skagit line.
Pete: Correct. Yeah.
Tom: All right.
Pete: So some somewhere in that range. It could be a little bit more than 250 grains. It could be a little bit less. I would recommend just a touch on more side, maybe 250, 260, 270 even. The heavier you go or the more grains you put on that, the more that rod's going to bend. You're going to feel it bend [00:52:00.723] a little bit deeper in that rod.
Now, Scientific Anglers has done a great job making these Spey Lite lines. And they have an integrated line. And what that means is it's almost a complete line. You have a head and a running line attached. So that head and running line attached means there's no junction or there's no loop-to-loop connection from the running line to the head, which a lot of people do. I do myself. And the reason I do that [00:52:30.119] is I switch from a Scandi head to a Skagit head sometimes so I can fish with both lines. But if I want to keep it simple, I think those integrated lines are great. So I would get an integrated Skagit head, Spey Lite. And that head is probably around 15, 16 feet long, maybe 17 feet long. It's a very short, compact head. We need to add a tip to it and then we can add a leader.
Tom: Okay, now tell me, [00:53:00.000] I'm going to go fish size six and eight streamers?
Pete: Yep, 6 and 8 streamers, maybe 10s even or 12s. You know, smaller streamers. You're not going to fish, you know, a big 3.5-inch, you know, tungsten-headed or dumbbell-eyed streamer. That's going to be a little bit rough to cast on that 3-weight. That's where the 4-weight is going to be a little bit better, and definitely not the 2-weight.
You're going to fish a lot of the standard trout streamers, [00:53:30.400], you know, maybe that you started off fishing. Woolly buggers, you know, Mickey Finns, blacknose daces, you know, stuff like that is going to cast really, really well on that. And there's a whole host of different patterns out there, small zonkers even. And those flies are going to work great on that setup.
You can also fish some wet flies as well. You could fish two wet flies if you like to fish two flies in a row. If your streams allow you to fish two flies, I tend to fish two flies sometimes [00:54:00.159] on my lighter trout spey setups, especially if I'm using two wet flies. I will fish two. I'll just tie, you know, a clinch knot or an improved clinch knot to the bend of the hook and add a second fly so it's kind of in a line. Or you can tie it off a tag if you like. So I'm going to use that three-way trout spay, a Skagit head around 250 grains. You know, somewhere in that range. I'm going to add a tip to the end of that Skagit head and then I'm going to run a leader [00:54:30.000] off of that Skagit tip or that tip.
Tom: All right. You got to tell me which tip to buy.
Pete: Which tip to buy. So it's a good thing to have a range of tips. And so I would recommend getting probably three. You're going to want your tip is probably going to be in the 80 to 120 grain range. And I know we're getting into the weeds here, but you want a fast sinking tip, a medium sinking tip, and an intermediate tip. Somewhere [00:55:00.199] in that range is going to be a good place for you. I think if you only had one, I would probably grab that medium sinking tip.
Tom: Okay, so I'm on the Orvis... I don't know if we have them, but the Scientific Anglers website. Which tip do I buy?
Pete: I like that 80 grain or the 120 grain, sink-3, sink-5 tip. I think that's a good tip to start out with. I think it's going to cover [00:55:30.119] a lot of your bases.
Tom: Is it sink-3 or sink-5, or sink-3 to 5?
Pete: It's a dual density, so it's actually got two parts. So it starts at sink-3, then it goes to sink-5, to kind of keep everything in a nice line in the water. So that sink-3, sink-5 tip on roughly a 250-grain Skagit head integrated line on a Battenkill SSR reel on a 11-foot-4-inch 3-weight [00:56:00.975] and you're ready to go.
Tom: All right. Now, tippet. How do I attach my tippet to that head?
Pete: Great question. So...
Tom: And I'm going to use a level tippet, right? Three X probably. Two X for streamers maybe, and three or four X for swinging wet flies?
Pete: Yeah. I would use a level section of tippet somewhere in like the 3 to 4 foot length. And what I want to do is pull off a section of two X, three X, four X, and I'm just going to tie [00:56:30.252] a loop knot on one end of it. I'm then going to do a loop-to-loop connection connecting that to that tip. So your tip is going to have a loop on the end of it. You're going to tie a loop in your tippet. You could do a surgeon's loop or perfection loop. You could really get into the weeds and do a Bimini twist and loop it on. That's what I like to do myself. But you don't have to go that far down that rabbit hole. You can go just a surgeon's loop will work very, very well. [00:57:00.820] Loop-to-loop on that tippet section. That's only 3-4 feet long, maybe at the most. And then you can tie on your fly, and you're ready to go.
Tom: So you don't need a tapered leader. All you need is a piece of tippet.
Pete: Correct.
Tom: Now I have had in the finer diameters, say four X, putting a perfection loop in that. I have had those break...
Pete: No question.
Tom: ...more frequently than [00:57:30.079] I think they should.
Pete: At the perfection loop?
Tom: At the perfection loop. And I'm of the belief that perfection loops don't work that well in finer diameters.
Pete: I agree with you 100%.
Tom: Okay. Do you think the surgeon's loop, which is just a double overhand, or do you use a triple overhand in your surgeon's loop?
Pete: So I'm a big nerd here. I tie a Bimini twist. And I like a Bimini twist because it's 100% knot strength, that Bimini twist. [00:58:00.239] Which I know we did that knot test a while ago and kind of threw a lot of that pound or knot strength percentages a little bit out the window. You know, what's most important is that you tie the knot well. But I do a Bimini twist. So if I do break off a fly, it almost always breaks off at the knot to my fly, and I don't leave a piece of line hanging in the water. That's why I tie that Bimini twist. [00:58:30.320] But I do think a surgeon's loop works a little bit better than a perfection loop in that finer tippet. I agree with you completely.
Tom: Two turns or three turns on the surgeon's loop.
Pete: For a surgeon's loop, I typically do two. Three is fine.
Tom: Yep. And the surgeon's loop is one of the easiest knots to tie. It's just you form a loop...
Pete: [00:58:51.882].
Tom: ...and you make a double overhand with the loop and you're done.
Pete: Yeah. It's super easy. And what's nice is you can [00:59:00.000] you know, when I do the Bimini twist, especially in that lighter tippet stuff, a lot of times I tie them before. I'll tie them ahead of time.
Tom: Yeah. That's what I do. Yeah, you don't to be tieing a Bimini twist when it's 40 degrees outside in a pair of waders.
Pete: Exactly. You know, in low-light conditions or anything like that. No, I tie them usually the night before or I'll make a few of them in some downtime or, you know, while I'm sitting on the computer. You know, or on a call or something like that, I'll be tying some up. [00:59:30.219] You know, that's typically what I'm doing. And then I'll have like a little leader wallet where I'll keep a few and I label them. Make sure you label them so you know what size they are. And I'll carry a few with me so if I do have to swap them out. But I've had days where, you know, I may have lost two, three, four flies, and I never had to change that tippet with that Bimini twist because it always breaks off right at the eye of the hook. You know, most of the times. If it breaks off somewhere in that Bimini, chances are I didn't tie that Bimini well.
Tom: [01:00:00.871] Yeah. And there are lots of great videos online to learn how to tie the Bimini twist. And it's really fun and satisfying not to tie.
Pete: Absolutely.
Tom: It's not easy, but, you know, it's a skill that if you're going to get into this fly fishing stuff seriously, I think you need to be able to tie a Bimini twist.
Pete: I do too. I tie them all the time, mostly just because I think they're fun to tie. Again, big nerd here. [01:00:30.739] But that Bimini twist, you know, I'm going to give a shameless plug to the Learning Center. The animated knot videos, I think, are one of the best tools for learning a knot. I'm a big fan of the animated ones over a video of a person doing it, because I think the animated knots, there's no hands in the way. And you can use the little scrubber and kind of rewind, fast forward, and go to each part. You can see what side the line's supposed to wrap over. [01:01:00.199] So I'm a huge fan of those animated knots, more so than a video of an individual, you know, where their hands might be in the way.
Tom: Right. Or I sometimes will use both, you know? I'll watch the animated one first to get the basics, and then I'll watch somebody tie it, because sometimes when you're in real life with monofilament, there's little tricks or little differences.
Pete: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think with those knots too, like you said, [01:01:30.079], you're going to see little tips and tricks, you know, that that individual might be able to show you. But hand positioning when you're tying knots is so important.
Tom: Yeah. That muscle memory, right?
Pete: Muscle memory. Absolutely. And practice, practice, practice. Practice with thicker stuff too. But I think that setup is a great place to get started with the trout spey world, and it goes deep. Just like fly fishing. I mean, [01:02:00.219] I was talking about it in the drive-over this morning, you know, talking to someone about spey casting and two-handed rods. It's almost like if you met, you know, a biochemist or two biochemists for the first time and you knew nothing about biochemistry, and they started talking about biochemistry. You might be looking at them like, "What are they talking about?" It can be very, very confusing. It can be very, very intimidating to even those of us who [01:02:30.159] have done a lot of fly fishing before.
There's so much information out there. There're so many great instructors out there, you know, teaching, you know, tips and tricks. And I'm sorry to say there are also a lot of folks that go way deep into the rabbit hole on this stuff and can make it very confusing. And so, you know, do as much research as you can. But, you know, you can get started very simply, you know, with the two-handed stuff. [01:03:00.440] And I think the... You know, well, let's talk a little bit about casting, too.
Tom: Before we do that, I got a nerdy question for you because you and I are knot nerds...
Pete: Big time.
Tom: ...and this might be valuable for people. When you tie a Bimini twist, you end up with a loop. You end up with a single-strand loop, right? One strand. Do you attach that right to the tip loop with a loop-to-loop connection [01:03:30.958] or, which I've seen some people do, do you then tie a perfection loop or a surgeon's loop in the Bimini loop so that you have a double loop?
Pete: Good question.
Tom: Yeah, I'm just curious what you do.
Pete: Okay. All right. I'm sorry to the listeners right now because I get teased by a lot of my friends who fish a lot. They look [01:04:00.119] at me like I'm crazy. But what I do is so when you tie your Bimini twist, you end up with a loop. I then take that loop, and I actually cut the loop open. And then I feral the loop. So, I roll the line, the two ends of the loop, in opposite directions.
Tom: You got that from me, I think.
Pete: I think I may have.
Tom: And I got it from Aaron Adams.
Pete: So I feral it together, and then I take the section that I just cut open, I tie a little half-hitch or a little overhand knot in it just to hold it in place. [01:04:30.683] And then I double it. And then I do a surgeon's loop, a two-turn surgeon's loop in the end, so I have that doubled section. And it's feraled, and it's all nice and tight. And the casting nerd in me likes that because with that doubled section, it gives me a slight taper to that tip.
Tom: Yeah, and it's air-resistant too.
Pete: Yeah. You get better turnover when you're making that cast. Also, if you're in finer-diameter lines, it doesn't cut into [01:05:00.059] that tip as much.
Tom: Yeah. Because you got four strands that are connected to your loop instead of two strands, right?
Pete: Exactly. And those do take a little bit of time to tie. I have tied them on the water, but I don't like to tie them on the water. I would rather... Excuse me. I usually tie those up at home, you know, the night before. And that's what I do from, you know, if I'm fishing as light as even like 6X, you know, with my 2-weight trout spey [01:05:30.239] all the way up to 20-25 pound test. You know, if I was using my full-size or big two-handers for salmon or steelhead. That's the way I tend to roll. And yeah, I get some odd looks when I do that because it doesn't have to be that technical, but I for some reason always have to overcomplicate everything.
Tom: Well, it's super secure, and it's very strong. And, you know, [01:06:00.559] not only for big fish, but if you're hanging up on the bottom, you get your fly back more often.
Pete: A hundred percent.
Tom: If you're knot's stronger, right?
Pete: A hundred percent. And that's kind of my go-to setup. You know, getting into the weeds a little bit, if I had unlimited resources, you know, I tend to myself, I run a 4-weight as a Skagit setup, a 3-weight as a Scandi setup, and my 2-weight [01:06:30.199] is also a Scandi setup. And I tend to run my 4-weight with the Skagit setup in the wintertime a little bit more when the water's colder. And then in the spring, summer, and fall, I tend to run my 3-weights and my 2-weights in a Scandi setup more so.
And I feel like when the water is a little bit warmer in the spring, summer, fall, fish are going to move a little bit more to a fly. And so, I tend not to feel like I need to get down as deep. [01:07:00.621] It's typically just in the wintertime that I fish that Skagit setup myself. That's when I usually fish that Skagit setup, you know, late December, January, February. You know, even into March. That's when I'm fishing that Skagit set up. But I have fished that Skagit setup in the spring, in the summer, in the fall. It works great.
And I was just talking to someone recently. If you like to fish [01:07:30.059] mouse flies and you're fishing at night, that Skagit setup with a floating tip will actually cast a mouse fly quite nicely. And if you have, you know, obstacles behind you, like we always do when we're fishing, you know, some of the good juicy spots, that Skagit setup will cast that mouse fly very easily, and you can skate those mice really well. And when it's, you know, the middle of the night, those fish are not leader shy. And so, you just use [01:08:00.039] that short section of tippet, and you can skate a mouse fly and catch some of the nicest fish at night fishing mice flies. And so I'll use that 4-weight trout spey setup to fish my mouseflies at night, which is a lot of fun. But make sure you're using a floating tip because you want that fly up on the surface because that's the most exciting take, I think, in fishing, you know, whenever you can get a fish to fly off the top. That's the best.
Tom: Well, they can see it better at night too. They can find it better at night when it's [01:08:30.159] waking on the surface.
Pete: Absolutely. Absolutely. But some people like to fish streamers at night too. And that's when you could use, you know, an intermediate tip or, you know, that medium sinking tip, that sink-3, sink-5, you know, tip. But I tend not to fish those heavy tips, you know, that much in the summertime. Usually fishing something quite a bit lighter.
Tom: Okay. And I kind of interrupted you there, and I apologize. You were starting to talk about casting.
Pete: [01:09:00.210] Yeah. Yeah. And sorry, I love to do this trout spey stuff, and so I kind of ramble on a little bit.
Tom: That's okay. It's okay.
Pete: And I get...
Tom: It's good rambling, Pete.
Pete: ...off topic.
Tom: It's very valuable for all of us.
Pete: Sure. So, with that Skagit setup for that 3-weight, so 250-grain roughly give or take. You know, you could go a little higher or a little lower than that. You got your tip. You got that integrated line, that 3-weight, the two casts [01:09:30.239] you really want to focus on. Well, three, actually. The first one is a roll cast. Pretty much all spey casting is a modified roll cast. Yeah, there are some small little nuances or little differences, but not much. It's essentially a roll cast. And every cast you hear about: snap-Ts, circle speys, you know, snap-C, double speys, snake rolls, single space. All those casts are ways to set up [01:10:00.220] for that roll cast essentially. So that roll cast is going to be your foundation. That's going to get that fly out there. Again, it's slightly modified, but essentially it's a roll cast. Every other cast you hear about is a setup to get to that roll cast. So you want to practice that roll cast.
The second thing you want to do is with that roll cast, you want to practice that roll cast doing it off of both shoulders. [01:10:30.100] So your right shoulder and your left shoulder. And the reason you want to practice that is for safety. And what I mean by that is if you have wind coming up the river or down the river, you want to be able to set up that roll cast with that fly downwind. You always want that fly downwind so when you make that roll cast, that fly doesn't end up in the back of your head or your ear, or your neck. So practicing both shoulders is really important. You can practice [01:11:00.359] casting with both of your hands. You could have your right hand on top or your left hand on top of your two-handed rod, but practicing that cast off of both shoulders is going to make you a more versatile angler. It's also going to keep you safe.
Now, when you're casting with that Skagit setup, really the two casts that I focus on are the double spey or the snap-T or snap-C circle spey. They're essentially similar casts or they're very, very similar casts. [01:11:30.826] But those are the only two casts that I really worry about. And if you can cast off of either shoulder, your right shoulder or your left shoulder, you could just do a double spey the whole time or a snap-T the whole time off of either shoulder. So those are the two casts that you want to focus on.
When you get into your Scandi setups, that's where you can start playing around with your single speys and your snake rolls, and a lot of these other casts. Your Scandi setup is [01:12:00.500] very similar to your normal dry-fly-type line on your 5-weight. You can do a lot of stuff with that.
With your Skagit setup, you don't want to be doing a lot of those casts as much. You can still do them, but you start throwing a lot of shock into that line. You might break off a fly if you get a little too aggressive. It might cause some pops or snaps. You also might make a lot of noise on the water doing some of those casts with that Skagit [01:12:30.399] style of line. So stick to those double speys and those snap-Ts or snap-Cs, or circle speys. Stick to that stuff with that Skagit head.
Tom: That's what I do. I don't even know how to do any of the other spey casts.
Pete: Oh, the snake rolls and the single speys?
Tom: Yeah. Someday I'll learn when I grow up.
Pete: They're a lot of fun. And again, nerd alert here, but they're a very graceful [01:13:00.159] kind of looking cast.
Tom: Oh, it's beautiful. Yeah.
Pete: And it's a fun, fun cast. And when you hit any of these casts right, they just feel really, really good. And I know again, big time nerd alert here, but that's one of the fun things I think about casting two-handed rods just in general, trout spey or larger size rods. When you make that cast, it feels good, which I think we kind of need because a lot of times we don't catch as many fish than if we threw like [01:13:30.140] an indicator rig. So we got to have some sense of gratification, I guess.
And so, the casting, that's the fun part. And I think focusing on those two casts or three casts, if you will, the roll cast, double spey, and like snap-T, you're going to be in good shape. And that's going to get you fishing off of both sides of the river with an upstream wind, a downstream wind to keep yourself safe and just keep you in the game.
Tom: Yeah. And another plug for you [01:14:00.745] and for the Orvis Learning Center. You have a couple of great videos...
Pete: Oh, thanks.
Tom: ...on the only two casts you need in two-handed fishing. And it's the double spey and the snap-T. And you explain them very well, and there's lots of good photography in there, including that brilliant drone photography.
Pete: Was that the time the drone got stuck in the tree?
Tom: Well, yeah. [01:14:30.560] The inside joke here, folks, is I was the drone operator. I was doing the drone photography.
Pete: Fantastic drone photography. Fantastic drone photography.
Tom: Well, it wouldn't be fantastic without a great caster.
Pete: Well, thank you.
Tom: And you can find the Orvis Learning Center at howtoflyfish.orvis.com in case you haven't seen it. So both the knot stuff and the casting stuff you can find there in video.
Pete: [01:15:00.300] Yeah.
Tom: All right. So a couple other questions.
Pete: Sure.
Tom: One is when I'm trying to do this spey stuff, trout spey, I always have problems until I've done it for a while, casting that rod, you know, more off the tip, like I would a standard trout rod or a saltwater rod or whatever. [01:15:30.199] And I don't get that whole rod working. Give me one tip to help me because you've seen me do this. Give me one tip that will help my two-handed casting and get me away from trying to throw it like a standard overhead rod.
Pete: Sure. Sure. So when you're casting a two-handed rod, well, especially these SA Spey Lite heads [01:16:00.039] or Scientific Angler Spey Lite heads, like these Scandi heads and these Skagit heads on these trout spey rods, they're relatively short. You know, they're a compact head. And I think what happens to a lot of new spey casters is they really try to muscle that line out there, and they're making these big, big movements. You know, they're pushing their bottom hand way, way out, and they're really then extending with that top hand quite a bit [01:16:30.685], and they're just moving the rod almost too much.
So with these short, little compact heads, the casting stroke is going to be very, very compact. So we don't have to make this great big movement. One thing I see a lot of times in the two-handed world is people push out with their bottom hand way, way out. And when they push out with their bottom hand, it causes the tip of the rod to start to drop down, and it's more line [01:17:00.140] stick to the water. And so that rod tip then comes up and then down, kind of in an arch. Yeah. That can open up that loop and just slow things down. So be careful you don't move too much. That's one little tip.
And the other one is when you're going to make a little bit of a longer cast and you're shooting some line, making sure that you have either the junction close to the rod tip, just outside the rod tip. And when I say just outside, like, you know, [01:17:30.140] 6 inches, no more than like a foot in that junction. What I mean by that is when we have our two-handed line or our Scandi line or Skagit line, you have a fat, thick head section, then it's connected to a thin running line section by either a loop-to-loop connection. Or if it's an integrated line, you'll see a dramatic size difference. You'll see this thick-diametered line and a real thin-diametered line.
That diameter difference, if you have a lot of that thin running line out of the tip [01:18:00.140], let's say 2, 3, 4 feet of that line out of that rod tip, that thin running line doesn't have the strength in order to get that head up out of the water and get it going. And it just kind of kills that cast. So having that junction right outside the rod tip, just a few inches, is going to help tremendously.
Tom: And then aiming high; I know that's another problem I have. I aim more at the water, and you need to... I mean, you're trying to shoot a lot of lines. [01:18:30.180] You really need to aim higher. You need a higher trajectory.
Pete: Yeah, a little bit of a higher trajectory. You know, I like to think about it like throwing a paper airplane. You want to kind of send it straight out, not down to the water. The fish live in the water. You know, the line will get to the water. I mean, that's the, you know, wonderful force called gravity. It's going to get that line down to the water. You don't have to force it down to the water.
You know, send it out. You could send it up a little bit when you're making that longer cast. [01:19:00.460] But just keeping everything a little bit more compact. Making sure you have that junction just outside of the rod tip. And then just take your time. Take your time. Slow it down. You know, there's no need to rush. You know, spey casting is, you know, slow and gradual. And you have plenty of time when you're doing these snap-Ts and these double speys. You know, take your time. Rushing usually causes a cast to kind of not go [01:19:30.709] as well as we had hoped.
So taking your time, I think, is really important. And just get out there on the water and just practice and practice and practice. The beauty about swinging flies is you're going to practice a lot, you know, in between fish, unless you have some awesome stream that is just loaded, you know, with hungry fish.
Tom: We don't have that around here.
Pete: Yeah. Unfortunately, we don't. We get lots of practice here. And so, you know, that's something that can be pretty helpful [01:20:00.260], but it is an incredibly fun way to fish. It's something that I really, really enjoy. And I hope, you know, if you're listening to this podcast, you'll give it a shot because it's one of the most fun, relaxing, and also exhilarating ways, I think, to fish a trout stream that might be a little bit different. You know, if you've caught a lot of fish on nymphs, you know, give it a shot. But again, if you get a lot of fish rising up on the surface, you know, [01:20:30.079] put the trout spey rod down and pick up your dry fly rod. I mean, I think that's what it's all about.
Tom: You don't have to tell me that twice.
Pete: I know I don't have to tell you that. You know, that's, I definitely put it down. You know, but there are certain circumstances where you can skate flies on the surface, and that is a blast. You know, a funny thing, we call them trout spay rods. I think I have a little... [01:21:00.159] Not a gripe with that, but I disagree with that because I've used these little two-handed rods for a lot of different species.
Tom: Oh, yeah. Smallmouth bass, they're a ball with two-handed rods.
Pete: Caught carp on them.
Tom: Wow.
Pete: Smallmouth. Even striped bass. Small striped bass, granted. But I've even used these smaller two-handed rods for fishing some of the Great Lake tributaries.
Tom: Yeah, sure.
Pete: And I was a little undergunned [01:21:30.180], I will say. I was using that 4-weight and caught a couple of fish that were in that, you know, like 8 to 10-pound category. And they were a little much for that. But landlocked salmon. They're great for shad. You know, they work great for...
Tom: Oh, perfect for shad.
Pete: Oh, absolutely. I mean, there're so many different species of fish you can target with these two-handed rods. And the fun thing is these lines... You actually asked me this question earlier when we were talking upstairs. [01:22:00.079] These lines will work on single-handed rods as well. These Spey Lite lines. And single-handed spey casting is something that is a lot of fun. Now, spey casting, I'm going to go on a little rant here. I hope it's okay.
Tom: Go ahead. Rant away, Pete.
Pete: Single-handed spey. So spey casting, first off, spey casting is a style of casting. It's not a style of rod. So I hear a lot of people calling them spey rods. [01:22:30.220] And technically, that's incorrect. Spey casting is just a style of casting where you have, you know, limited back cast space behind you. So all these casts that we're talking about, you can do on your single-handed rods. So your 9-foot-5-weights, your 7.5-foot-3-weights and 4-weights. You can do all of these spey casts, and you can swing all these flies.
Now, these lines, they will work on your single-handed rods, and you can have so much fun [01:23:00.680] using these lines, doing these spey casts with a single-handed rod. There's a lot of times that I've used these same lines on my 7 and 8-weight rods when I was, you know, maybe I was striper fishing or something. And, you know, I was fishing near like a breachway or something, and there was a lot of current, you know, pushing through. And I had a big jetty wall behind me, and I would do these casts and use these types of lines. And I could make a long cast delivering a fly out there [01:23:30.220] and swing these flies when there's the heavy current catching striped bass on trout streams. It's a blast.
You know, try these lines with your single-handed setups. The lines, though, you want to look at your rod and do a little research and look at the grain weights that kind of match with your single-handed rods too. So these lines that I'm talking about for a 3-weight trout spey rod in that 250-grain range, [01:24:00.880] those lines are actually going to work well on a 7-weight single-handed rod. So, you know, for a 4-weight, those are going to work great on a 8-weight rod. And so, it's quite a big jump. But take a look at the AFTA standards. So the American Fly Fishing Tackle Association, I think. Is that correct, Tom?
Tom: Yeah, you can find them online. Just Google the fly line standards, and it'll give you the grain range for each fly line.
Pete: Yeah. [01:24:30.140] Look at those standards and go a little bit heavier just to make it easier. But these Spey Lite lines will work great on your single-handed rods. And it is so much fun practicing these casts and doing these casts on your single-handed rods as well.
Tom: I use them. I use these casts all the time with my five-weight trout rod when I'm swinging wet flies.
Pete: Absolutely.
Tom: I love it. I love it.
Pete: I do them on small streams. A lot of these little casts, I'll do them on small streams. You know, [01:25:00.039] when you have tight cover. They're awesome casts. And it really opens up, I think, the areas that you can fish. It's so much fun. And it's not just for your trout spey rods or your bigger two-handed rods. You can do them with any rod out there, these spey casts.
Tom: Yeah. All right. Now, before I let you go, I'm going to ask you one question.
Pete: Sure.
Tom: One more question. I'm going trout spey fishing. I'm going to swing some streamers with a sinking tip [01:25:30.740] with a Scandi. And I want you to give me three streamers that I should be using.
Pete: Oh, I'm going to do a shameless plug here then. All right. There's a lot of great trout spey flies out there. And a lot of your standard trout streamers, your smaller-sized trout streamers are going to work great. So at Orvis, we have a great fly called a Montana Intruder. I know that Shawn Combs' go-to fly.
Tom: Shawn Combs'. [01:26:00.359] It's the only fly he fishes.
Pete: It's the only fly he fishes. You know, that's a great one. But my shameless plug is I have a new fly actually that I tied. It's in the Fulling Mill catalog. It's called PK's Crafty Swinger.
Tom: Oh, that's the one that I tied once in a fly tying...
Pete: You got it. That's the one.
Tom: On my fly-tying demo.
Pete: That's the one.
Tom: You can find it on YouTube under [01:26:30.680] Tying with Tom on the Orvis YouTube channel. I did tie that fly.
Pete: Yeah. And so that's one that I really like a lot. And I tie it. Primarily, I use it in two colorways, or white and then olive. Or the brown, excuse me. But I do tie it in olive now, and I tie it in a couple other colorways. But I've had a lot of success on the brown version and the white version. You know, the white version I've actually used a lot on some of those Great Lake trips. [01:27:00.039] Whenever there's like smelt or alewives around. The brown one I've used really well for when there's like a lot of sculpins around. The olive can work great if there's sculpins or crayfish. So that's a fun fly. That Montana Intruder is a great fly, but even a woolly bugger. And so that would be the three flies that I would recommend. And yeah, just get out there, swing some flies, and just have some fun. [01:27:30.000] I mean, that's what it's really all about. It's just having fun.
Tom: Yeah, that's what it's all about. Well, thank you, Pete. That was a great explanation. I hope we have given people a little bit more insight into trout spey and the fact that it's not that hard and it doesn't have to be that complicated. And of course, it's fun. We can tell that from talking to you, Pete.
Pete: Well, thank you. I really appreciate it. And I guess, [01:28:00.315] yeah, just, you know, that 3-weight, great-size rod. That 11-foot-4-inch 3-weight. Just to kind of reiterate it again. A Skagit head or an integrated Skagit line. That SA Skagit Lite is fantastic. Somewhere in that 250-grain range. Get a couple sink tips or a couple tips. If you only had one, that sink-3, sink-5 tip in either 80 grains or 120 grains. Short piece of leader. And again, [01:28:30.319] shameless plug, you know, Pete's Crafty Swinger on the end of it. And just go out there, have some fun, and just enjoy it.
Tom: Thank you, Pete. Thank you so much.
Pete: No problem.
Tom: Always great talking to you.
Pete: Thanks.
Tom: All right. See you.
Pete: See you.
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at