What You Get When You Upgrade Your Fly Rod, with Shawn Combs
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer, and my guest this week is Orvis Rod and Reel product developer, designer, and head of fishing and hunting product development, Shawn Combs. The topic that I'm interviewing Shawn [00:00:30.440] on is the price value proposition in fly rods.
So, Orvis and other companies typically have a number of tiers of different fly rod prices. I get questions a lot with people wanting to know, say, "If I'm thinking of either a Clearwater or Recon, what am I going to get in the Recon rod that I won't get in a Clearwater rod?" And it [00:01:00.460] goes from the lowest-priced Streamline rod and outfit to the flagship Helios rod.
And so, Shawn does, I think, a really good job of explaining this price-value equation in fly rods. And you have to decide for yourself, "Is it important to me to go up to the next tier? I'm looking for a new fly rod. Is it important to me to go to a higher-priced rod, or will I be just [00:01:30.239] as happy with a rod and save a little money and spend it on some flies or a fishing trip?" So, anyway, I hope that helps and hope that answers some of the questions that I've had from a lot of you over the years on this question.
And a couple announcements. One is that this week, because I'm recording this in early January, this week on Thursday, January 9th, [00:02:00.219] I'll be at the River Road Orvis Store in Richmond, Virginia, from 6:00 to 7:30 doing a presentation in the store on small stream trout fishing. But I should be also there earlier in the afternoon and will hang around and chat and answer questions, or if you have one of my books that you'd like to have signed, bring it in. Be glad to do that. Or you can probably buy a book in the store. Hopefully they'll have a few copies there.
And [00:02:30.139] then the following 2 days, January 10th and 11th, I'll be at the Virginia Wine and Fly Fishing Festival. And that's just north of Richmond. And if you Google or you look up the website for the Virginia Wine and Fly Fishing Festival, you can find out the schedule events. There are lots of great speakers, lots of great events there. I'll be doing both some free and some paid classes, [00:03:00.340] special smaller, more intimate paid classes and then free open-to-the-public presentations. And there'll be lots of good speakers there. So, I hope to see some of the podcast listeners there.
And then one more thing for this month: Orvis will be at the New Jersey Fly Fishing Show on January 24th and 25th. We'll have a booth there, and we're [00:03:30.000] going to have a special live Fly Box where I'm going to be joined by at least two of the product developers, Shawn and probably Jesse Haller. And we'll be there to answer your questions live. So, it'll be like a Fly Box. We're not going to record it, but it'll just be live, and you can come and ask some questions. And the advantage here is that we can have a little bit more of a back-and-forth conversation by doing it live. So, that'll be... [00:04:00.020] The exact times will be announced over the next few weeks, so just watch the Orvis social media accounts, either Instagram or Facebook, for announcements on exactly when we're going to do that.
And then finally, one more announcement. We're bringing back the three-way fly tying competition with myself and Cheech from Fly Fish Food and Tim Flagler. January 13th at 3 p.m. Eastern Time, [00:04:30.959] we will be tying the Goddard Caddis live three different ways. And I'm sure there are going to be three different ways. And I know a lot of you look forward to those competitions, and we do too. They're a lot of fun. And so the first one of 2025 will be on January 13th at 3 p.m. Eastern Time. You can find it live either on the Orvis Facebook page or the Orvis YouTube channel. It'll also be probably [00:05:00.060] streamed on Instagram. But for sure, it'll be on the Facebook and the YouTube channels.
All right. Let's get into the Fly Box. And the Fly Box is where you ask questions or pass along a tip that you've learned or have a comment on the podcast. And I don't usually read the comments on the air unless they're really interesting or really nasty. I like to read the nasty ones. But [00:05:30.079] I do read all the questions, and I try to answer the ones I can on the air, the ones that I feel that are going to be most beneficial to you as listeners.
So, let's start out. Oh, by the way, if you have a question for the Fly Box... And by the way, I didn't have any phone calls this week. So, if you'd like to attach your question to your email as a voice file from your phone, [00:06:00.379] I may be able to read it on the air. And the mailbox for those questions is
All right. Now on to the Fly Box. First question is from Anthony from London in the United Kingdom. "Like a lot of fly fishers, I love to fish dry fly when the conditions are right and feel the amazing connection between the line and the fish when they take. As is the case [00:06:30.139] with our sport, fishing dry doesn't always work out as we would wish, and we resort to subsurface techniques to increase our odds.
This led me thinking about how to increase the odds of a dry fly take and which conditions would make it more probable. Of course, season, weather, timing all impact these odds, as to does a reasonable knowledge of the bugs present without the need for a degree in entomology. But what about the effects of river type on the bug life diet [00:07:00.180] of fish? I mean, are there river traits which will increase the odds of dry fly success due to something about their ability to support hatching bugs better than other types of rivers?
Tom, can you share your thoughts on the types of rivers which produce more insect life as a proportion of a trout's diet than rivers where other sources of food are prevalent? Are there river types which are just more buggy than others? Are there locations in the States where these rivers are in high proportion to [00:07:30.009] other types? Thanks very much for sharing your knowledge for the fishing community and all you and Orvis do."
Well, Anthony, this is kind of a two-part question because there's two circumstances in which fish respond to dry flies. One is where the rivers are quite rich and have a lot of insect life. And this in the UK would be your chalk streams and [00:08:00.180] streams that are influenced by limestone because they're going to be richer. And you can generally identify these rivers either by a preponderance of aquatic weeds or limestone or marl on the bottom.
The calcium content of the water and the more constant temperature and flow is beneficial for insect life and small crustacean life, which, of course, we're not interested in when we dry fly fish. But they're going to have more insects [00:08:30.519] as opposed to the more, I think you'd call them highland rivers over there, but here we call them mountain brooks or upland streams or whatever. The ones that are going to flow through a little bit higher gradient. There are going to be less chemicals, less nutrients in the water. And so both of those actually can be productive dry fly waters, [00:09:00.740] but for different reasons.
So, in the richer streams, there are more aquatic insects, so the chances of seeing a hatch are greater, and the fish are going to respond to those hatches. But typically the fish in those richer rivers don't respond to a dry fly as well unless there's a hatch, unless they're already feeding because they got lots of [00:09:30.179] food down below. There's freshwater crustaceans, scuds, and sow bugs, and there's aquatic insects drifting through the water column. So, they're going to look at the surface, but they may not rise to the surface that often.
Now, in those more infertile upland streams that have less aquatic life, actually can be better dry fly fishing [00:10:00.100] without a hatch. What we'd call prospecting or blind fishing with a dry fly. Because these fish don't have a lot of food and a greater percentage of their food comes from above the water: beetles and ants and caterpillars and things falling in the water. They may be actually more responsive to a dry fly when they're not already rising. I know this is definitely [00:10:30.000] true in the States. So, prospecting or blind fishing with a dry fly is often much better in waters where there isn't a lot of productivity and the fish are feeding a lot more on terrestrials, so they're looking for stuff to fall into the water.
That being said, dry fly fishing is going to be better when the water temperature is a little warmer, above 50 degrees Fahrenheit, and [00:11:00.320] relatively clear and relatively slow-moving. The faster the water, the less likely you're going to see fish rising to the surface unless there are little pockets of slower water somewhere in there. But in general, dry fly fishing can be productive in both types of rivers, and it just depends on whether you're going to seek out a hatch or you're going to just prospect with a dry fly.
Here's one from Bronson from Utah. [00:11:30.139] "I just hit one year with fly fishing, and I am addicted. One thing I've learned is that in the fall, it seems a fly-fishing community turns into the Inquisition when it comes to brown trout spawning season. I cannot remember such gusto when it comes to brook, rainbow, or cutthroat trout spawning seasons. Why is that?"
Well, Bronson, I think it depends on where you live because there are places... Of course, rainbows spawn in the spring, and so do [00:12:00.039] cutthroats. Browns and brook trout spawn in the fall. And people that fish small streams, small brook trout streams, are pretty vigilant about staying away from reds and spawning fish. And then where you have rainbows and cutthroats, they're equally vigilant to those that are trying to protect brown trout reds. It's just that you may not have seen it.
One of the factors here might [00:12:30.320] be that brown trout typically spawn in periods when the water is lower and clearer. So, typically in the fall, the rivers aren't that high, and you can see the reds, and you can see the fish spawning. Whereas rainbows spawning in the spring are typically spawning over clean gravel because the water is faster and you can't really see the reds that well because the gravel has already been cleaned off by [00:13:00.000] spring runoff.
And I know that the river that I live on has wild browns and wild rainbows, and where I see brown trout reds in the fall and I can see spawning fish. I never see reds in the springtime because the gravel is just too clean, and so I can't tell where the fish have scraped the silt and debris away from the gravel. But there are places [00:13:30.120] particularly in the western United States where some streams are closed because of cutthroat and rainbow trout spawning. So, that may be another reason that you don't hear as much because the streams are already closed to protect these spawners.
But in general, it's just often harder to see rainbow spawning. I remember once fishing the Madison River in April, and I went to this spot, and the water was relatively high [00:14:00.139], and I couldn't see that well into the water. And I got into this spot, and I started catching rainbow after rainbow. And boy, I thought I was pretty hot stuff. And I went back and talked to John Way at the fly shop in Ennis, and he said, "Oh, yeah, we don't go up there in the spring because they're all spawning up there. There's a whole bunch of reds." Well, oops. I didn't know it because I couldn't see the reds. I didn't know the fish were on reds. And so from [00:14:30.539] then on, I avoided that spot in the spring. I hope that answers your question, but I think people are equally as vigilant with rainbows and cutthroats.
Here's one from David. "In the mid to late '90s, fresh out of college, I worked for "Field & Stream" magazine, where I produced a TV show and a website for the brand. I recently started listening to your podcast, which has stirred up memories of my time in the sporting industry and given me the impetus for getting back to some of the things that I [00:15:00.059] truly love, fly fishing being at the top of that list.
I opened a few old boxes this weekend containing my striper flies from when I fished the northeast from Maine to New Jersey, mostly Long Island. I took the advice you gave in a podcast and steamed my deceivers and other patterns to get them back into shape. Aside from some yellowed epoxy, they look like new. Thank you for that tip. Here are my questions.
One, how do you like to set up your leaders and tippets for striper fishing? For years, I would nail knot [00:15:30.139] a 2- to 3-foot piece of 40-pound mono to my fly line, then 2 piece of 30-pound, followed by 2 feet of 20-pound before a loop-to-loop connection with a 12-pound mono tippet. Lately, I just do the 40, 30, and then loop-to-loop to a 20-pound fluoro tippet. I can cast both well with a variety of flies, and I don't think the fish have a preference.
And question two: why, oh why, do you fish for carp, [00:16:00.179] and seemingly with such enthusiasm? When I was a kid in suburban New Jersey, I would smear power bait on a willy bugger or a nymph and try to catch carp on my 5 weight, which I did successfully. My fishing options were extremely limited, but now I would not even think of fishing for carp. And you, with endless opportunities to fish all over the world, choose to promote fishing for these invasive beasts, when I would think you'd be more inclined to call for their eradication. Maybe I should think back [00:16:30.200] to my teenage years when carp fishing gave me so much joy."
Well, David, first of all, that striper leader sounds great to me. That sounds perfect. You might want to, depending on the material you're using in its diameter, you might want to try a 50- or a 60-pound test piece first and then go maybe 60, 30, 20, or 60. [00:17:00.340] 60, 40, 30, 20. Again, 12 pound that you used to use, probably a little light for stripers. I think 20 pound. Most of the time you can get away with 20 or 16 pound. But I would say that three-section leader that you're doing sounds just about right. And that's the way I would do it, so yeah, go ahead. And you said it works for you, so keep doing it.
Now for carp. First of all, if you don't like [00:17:30.119] the idea of fishing for carp, don't do it. That's why fly fishing is so enjoyable is that we do it the way we want it. And your taste in fly fishing might be totally different from mine, just like your taste in food or music is probably totally different from mine. A couple things, though, and why I get excited about it. Well, you say I can fish all over the world, but I really can't. I'm like most people. I have my work [00:18:00.299] and my family limitations. And yeah, I do get out there quite a bit, but I fish a lot close to home. But I also will drive a couple of hours for carp fishing and have been known to drive four hours for carp fishing. So, I enjoy it. I think they're challenging. If you don't like them, don't worry about them.
But as far as them being invasive, first of all, most of the brown trout and the rainbows, [00:18:30.019] in fact, all the brown trout and all the rainbows you catch in the East United States are also invasive. In fact, brown trout are considered one of the most invasive fish species in the world. So, yeah, carp are invasive, but they're here to stay, and we're never, ever going to eradicate them. You would have to poison nearly every body of water in the country completely to remove carp. They're not going anywhere. They're here to stay. [00:19:00.119] We might as well enjoy them. They live in waters that other fish don't live in, and I think they're fascinating. And I think, David, that maybe if you got back to your teenage years, the way you fish, you might have more fun.
Here's an email. They're all emails. Here's one from Carl from Northern Virginia. "Your presentations are always, without exception, wonderful to listen to and well worth the time to pay attention. Although I'm not a fly tyer [00:19:30.160], I listen to them because there is always something to learn. You and Orvis are great for the fly fishing world and the environment where we try to nab those elusive little buggers.
But on knots, I just listened to your guest Robert Ketley's presentation on tying good knots, and it led me to thinking about something related: where and when the knot breaks, if it does. Sometimes a knot will break at the tippet ring or at the hook's eye. Suggestion: why not start out every knot like a trilling knot? Sure, you can tie [00:20:00.200] a clinch knot with that, but one could just as easily, and I would think, and we'll try the next time out, tie a uni knot, a loop knot, of which it was either you or he described yourself as not the biggest fan. The Orvis knot or any other knot. This would provide the double loop through the eye to give it that little bit of extra whatever. Any reason why not?"
You know what, Carl? I don't know why not. And I think that's probably a great idea because the [00:20:30.079] trilling knot going through the eye twice on a clinch knot, which is all it is, certainly improves the strength of the clinch knot, especially where the diameter of the tippet is much smaller than the diameter of the eye. But I'm thinking you may be on to something there, and I am going to try it on some of the other... Although I typically just use a clinch knot, I'm going to try it on some of the other knots. I think that's a [00:21:00.039] great idea, and I think it is definitely worth a try.
Here's one from Steve. "Hi, Tom. Longtime listener, first-time emailer. Your podcast has helped numerous anglers from blue lines to the blue water. And you've been able to educate all of us, and that's where I need help. On social media, I keep seeing posts about people asking for spots or suggestions on where to fish, and other people just willingly give up the location. Now, of course, if they were savvy anglers, they would send them to a spot 50 [00:21:30.180] miles away in the wrong direction, but they're not. From what I see, they are young people being helpful. I feel that fishing culture has changed about sharing fishing information, and sadly, it's not changing for the better. Can we maybe try to swing the pendulum back in the other direction? If not for us, but for the fish, so we don't love them to death. I know us older fishermen had it hard, and I'm not encouraging anyone to be mean to other anglers, but maybe encourage them to put boots on the ground and figure it out."
[00:22:00.339] Well, Steve, I do agree with you in your sentiments in that more people should explore because exploring new water is actually part of the fun. And when you find a new water and you explore it on your own and you're successful, boy, it really adds to the satisfaction. Some people don't have as much time, and so they look for shortcuts.
But there has always been spot burning. [00:22:30.700] In the old days, prior to the Internet, prior to social media, we had books, and we had magazine articles, and there were plenty of spot-burning books and plenty of spot-burning magazine articles. It's just the way we communicated then. And yeah, it's definitely gotten more prevalent with social media, but all kinds of information have gotten more accessible and more prevalent. I don't think we're going to get away from it.
I do see some [00:23:00.200] amount of mild shaming of people hot spotting on social media, and that's probably a good thing. I don't think we should be rude about it. But I think that all of us should kind of try to stay away from spot burning and try not to share quite as much as we do on social media. And that's about [00:23:30.079] the only thing we can do about it. It's the way of the world now, and we're all going to have to live with it.
Here's one from Aaron from Shreveport. "Hi, Tom. I just listened to the latest podcast with Peter on paddleboards. It was full of great info, and I enjoyed it immensely. I fish from a kayak, which is very similar to paddleboards, and it got me to thinking about a near-death experience I had several years ago, and hope sharing this can help someone else not go through what I experienced.
I used to have a cheap kayak [00:24:00.200] because it was all I could afford at the time. I was in Pensacola fishing in the Bay. I was paddling between spots and had my sinking fly line already off my reel and ready to make a cast if need be. I was passing by a piece of trash in the water and leaned over to grab it. That's when a wave hit me from the opposite side and instantly capsized me. I lost my second rod that was in the rod holder and some other non-floating gear, but this was the least of my problems.
The fly line wrapped [00:24:30.000] around my feet as I was trying to tread water, so I couldn't kick my feet, and my anchor went to the bottom. So, if you can picture it, I'm holding on to my flipped kayak, trying to hold on to my remaining rod with one hand and trying to kind of dog paddle with my other hand, and I was trying to pull the anchor rope with my paddle hand to get the anchor off the bottom as well so I could drift back to shore. Luckily, and I definitely mean luckily, the wind was blowing me to a rocky shoreline where I could regroup [00:25:00.380] and get myself back to civilization.
Several lessons were learned that day. One, life jackets 100% save lives. I would have definitely drowned without it. Two, reel your line in between fishing spots. Three, carry a knife in your pocket or strap one to your arm. I could have used it to cut the line wrapped around my feet. Four, make sure your craft is appropriate to the water you're fishing. I now have a top-of-the-line Old Town kayak that I trust [00:25:30.299] just about anywhere. Five, keep your phone in some sort of waterproof case or container. Looking back, I had no business fishing Escambia Bay on an entry-level kayak, but it's the mistake we make that we learn from, right? I hope my mistakes prevent someone else from having to go through something similar. Thanks, as always, for the podcast."
Well, thank you, Aaron. Those are some great tips for safety and some great [00:26:00.180] reminders to all of us who fish from personal watercraft. So, appreciate those tips.
Here's one from Christopher from Indiana. "I'm trying to organize fly boxes after another great year of fishing. I always start out well organized, then start borrowing from different boxes for special trips, and then end the year with everything a bit of a jumble. Since you are a longtime fly tyer, I have a few questions for you. One, when you tie, do you immediately place completed flies into fly boxes, or do you fill some sort [00:26:30.240] of bins from which you later take flies to put in fly boxes?
Two, any thoughts on the best way to organize boxes? I know there is no absolutely right way. I have separate boxes for beadheads, unweighted nymphs, soft tackles, small streamers, big streamers, etc. But I also have separate boxes for salmon and steelhead, stripers, bluefish, tropical saltwater, pike, smallmouth, and a couple of boxes of summer mixed flies for everyday bass, bluegill, crappie fishing. Can be sort of a [00:27:00.019] challenge to figure out what flies I need to replace. Hence the thought that it might be a good idea to have some sort of fly bins from which I fill my boxes. And when the bin gets low, I know which flies need to be tied. Anyway, hoping you have some thoughts on this."
Well, Christopher, first of all, when I tie, I generally tie four or five patterns at a time, and I'll put them in a little bin or a little cardboard box or something. And then I'll transfer them [00:27:30.220] to my fly boxes. So, I don't immediately transfer them to my fly boxes. And usually this is prior to a trip. So, I'll have my fly boxes pretty well filled, but I want some extra flies for a trip. So, I'll tie up all those flies I want for a trip, and then I'll add them to my fly boxes. That's the way I do it. Anyways, you could do it anyway.
Thoughts on organizing boxes. Sounds like you organize yours pretty much the same as I do. [00:28:00.119] So, I don't know if I have any specific ideas because everybody's brain works differently, and everybody has different places they fish and different needs for flies. But there's kind of two things that I like to tell people about organizing fly boxes.
Number one is try to use boxes that you can fit as many flies as possible [00:28:30.380] into. And this is particularly for wading anglers because I want to carry a lot of flies. When I'm traveling, I never know what I'm going to expect. Whether I'm in Idaho or Chile or California, I don't know what to expect. So, I want to have nearly every trout fly that I own in my boxes. But I also don't want to overburden myself with lots of fly boxes. So, I try to get boxes that [00:29:00.220] I can put a lot of flies in that don't take up much space.
So, for nymphs that are the super slim boxes, because I can put a ton of nymphs in a super slim box, and they take up almost no space in my sling bag. And then for dries and streamers, I use compartment boxes because I can stuff a lot of flies into those compartment boxes. These fancy streamer boxes with foam strips, they may keep flies really organized, but they take [00:29:30.119] up a ton of space. And unless you're a guide and you're in a drift boat and you got a kit bag with all sorts of fly boxes, it doesn't work that well. They're just too big and bulky. So, I like to try to put as many flies as I can in my sling bag without a lot of weight and a lot of bulk.
And even more important is whatever organization method you use, make sure that you [00:30:00.000] put the flies in the boxes in a way that you can find the fly you want when you need it quickly. And I know that that's kind of self-evident, but I see a lot of people that don't do it that way. So, however you organize it, just make sure that your brain is going to find that size 14 Frenchie in a hurry without having to sort through 4 or 5 fly boxes. That's all I can do to help. Again, everybody [00:30:30.039] has to set up their own method.
Here's one from Tony from Dublin, Ireland. "Greetings from Ireland. I've been fly fishing and fly tying for 50 plus years, and I'm still only moderately skilled, but it gives me such pleasure, and I'm glad that I still have more to learn. I greatly enjoy your podcasting style, informal, not patronizing, yet authoritative. In a recent around Halloween 2024 Fly Box, someone was asking about cleaning CDC feathers and discussed [00:31:00.059] using soapy water.
This may seem oblique, but I worked in the leather industry for many years, and surfactants are very important there for cleaning skins, wool, hair, etc. Household surfactants include soap, dishwasher products, washing-up liquid, etc. Their purpose is to make the materials being cleaned wettable so that the grease and dirt can be suspended in the water and carried away from the materials being washed. Without surfactants, the water finds it hard to wet the material being washed.
[00:31:30.420] Carrying this idea into feathers and fly-tying materials in general, washing even a small amount of surfactant in water is likely to make the materials very easy to wet, even after washing and rinsing is complete and the feathers, etc., have been dried out. It leaves a residual wettability, so it's deleterious to any material intended for dry flies, because after washing using surfactants, these materials will wet very easily, and flies made with them [00:32:00.200] will be poor floaters.
For the same reason, water-repellent angling clothing made of woven materials should not be washed using the same washing processes as used for normal clothes. The water repellency will be destroyed, and instead of rain purling off, the water will wet and penetrate the fibers of the clothing. I know this from experience."
So, Tony, it may make sense that that surfactants or washing materials will make them more wettable. However, [00:32:30.740] in the case of CDC, I do not think that is the case. For one thing, all the CDC that you buy from a fly shop, unless it's been taken directly...purchased directly from a hunter, in other words, if it came from a wholesaler that sells CDC fly tying wholesaler, all of that CDC has already been washed. And the reason CDC floats has nothing really [00:33:00.279] to do with the water repellency of the fibers in CDC. It has to do with the physical properties of the fibers themselves. They are so tiny and so flexible that they hold air bubbles, and they support the fly in the surface film. So, this is why...
Why, actually, I'm a duck hunter, and I pluck the CDC from ducks that [00:33:30.059] I shoot, which has the natural oil on it. And it's not a heavy coating of oil either. It's a very light coating of oil. But when I tie flies with CDC from ducks that I've shot, which I like to do, I find that the flies don't float as well as the ones that I tie with CDC that I've obtained commercially, which has been washed. And I think the washing itself [00:34:00.220] frees all those little tiny fibers from sticking together. This is why we don't put greasy floatants on CDC flies. You can use a powder, a dust, or a powder to coat those flies, but you don't ever want to use anything that's going to mat the fibers together.
So, actually, and I think that once those CDC feathers are washed, the soap is removed, is rinsed from the feathers. So, they're just left with a clean surface. I doubt if there's much soap or [00:34:30.019] surfactant left on the feathers. Anyway, in the case of CDC, washing them is fine. If you want to wash them, I'm not going to go through the effort of washing the CDC from ducks that I shoot myself because it's way too much trouble. And I can buy if I want washed CDC, because I think I have loads better, I can buy it from a fly shop.
Here's one from Jacob. "I was listening to old podcast episodes, and I heard one about kayak fishing. [00:35:00.039] The expert on the day said he didn't like pedal kayaks because the fly line gets caught in the pedals too easily, which is fair. However, I have a tip for this that's really great for warm weather. Bring an old towel that you don't like anymore. Get it slightly wet. And when you're going to do a ton of casting, cover the pedals with the wet towel. The weight of the wet towel holds it in place. While the line may still wrap around the towel, it comes off much more easily than it would from the pedals. I found this drastically reduces the amount of snags when fishing from my [00:35:30.139] kayak. An analogy would be like fishing from a boat deck. Being barefoot, you're more likely to catch the line between your toes. But if you're willing to look goofy, wearing socks makes it way harder for the line to catch on your feet."
Well, Jacob, that's a great suggestion, and that wet towel can be used to cover other projections on boats if you don't have a pedal kayak, like trolling motors and other things that get in the way and catch fly lines. So, [00:36:00.480] great tip. And I'm going to start carrying a wet towel myself.
And finally, here's one from Kelly in Aurora, Colorado. "I love your podcast. It's my favorite fly fishing podcast. I have a question. I'm listening from your oldest podcast to the most current podcast. I'm currently listening to the July 23rd, 2021 podcast, How to Find Great Carp Fishing. You mentioned nervous water. What exactly do you mean by nervous water?"
[00:36:30.380] Well, Kelly, that's a great question. And a lot of us that do education on fly fishing are guilty of sometimes using this jargon that not everybody understands. So, I'll try to explain it as best I can. Nervous water is easiest to see on a flat, calm surface. And in a flat, calm surface, you'll see little ripples or waves. When there's no wind, you'll see little ripples or [00:37:00.280] waves generally moving in one direction. So, there's a fish or a turtle or a duck or something underneath that creating a little turbulence and creating those little waves on the surface.
Now, once the surface gets riffled by wind, nervous water is harder to spot, but it's not impossible. So, when the wind is riffling the water, it's typically moving the water in [00:37:30.199] one direction. And if you see a little wiggle or a swirl that's going opposite of those wind streaks or swirls. If you see little bulges in the water or little waves being pushed that are contrary to the way the wind is pushing the water, that's nervous water. So, it's just a slight disturbance on the surface. Sometimes it's hard to see. Sometimes it's fairly easy. But I think if you do enough carp fishing, you're going to [00:38:00.039] see some nervous water and you'll learn to recognize it.
All right. Let's go talk to Shawn Combs about how to pick a low- or mid-priced fly rod. I get a lot of questions here in the Fly Box about where to go and people looking for suggestions on exploring new waters. And I generally don't answer those questions, mainly because I don't have an awful lot of knowledge about them, [00:38:30.637] about all of them. You guys think that I fish everywhere, but I really don't. I have my favorite spots, and I'm constrained by life, as you are, and how often I can travel to fish.
But I'd like to start introducing some suggestions for places for you to go every week so that you can plan a trip. And these are going to be Orvis-endorsed operations. Now, why Orvis-endorsed operations? Well, [00:39:00.360] they're places we've vetted. We want to make sure that you, our friends and customers, are going to go to a place where they have a good time, where things are safe, where the food is great. If it's a lodge, where the lodging is great if it's a lodge. If the guides are safety-oriented and good with people. And honestly, these are the places that those of us who work for Orvis go to when we want to go fishing because we know our peers have [00:39:30.000] already evaluated these operations.
So, we fish with them. We know that when we go or when you go, you're going to have a good time. And if you're looking for a place to go fly fishing, there's an interactive map, which is really helpful. And if you just go to orvis.com/adventures, you'll be taken to an interactive map, and you can look at the whole of North America and [00:40:00.400] look for places where we have endorsed operations. Now, some of these are fancy lodges that are relatively expensive. Some of them are outfitters, which have... An outfitter is a place that usually has a head outfitter and then has a number of guides that work with this person. And then there's Orvis-endorsed guides, which are individuals who are often close to home. Often, if you're just looking to go for a day and not a big vacation, you can look up an [00:40:30.119] Orvis-endorsed guide.
So, I'm going to give you suggestions every week on three of them. The first one this week is a lodge. It's a big, whole lodge. This is a family-owned lodge owned by Craig and Wade Fellen and Wade's wife, Madeline. And this lodge has been around since the 1980s. It's located in the Big Hole Valley, so it's a little less developed, [00:41:00.380] a little more rural, a little more agricultural than some of the busier areas of Montana. And this is a great lodge. These are great people, great guides. They have won Orvis-Endorsed Lodge of the Year twice, and one of their guides has won Orvis-Endorsed Guide of the Year. And these awards come from you. They come from people. They come from customers. They come from [00:41:30.019] customer reviews. And so you know that this is an operation that your fellow customers have enjoyed and have given it really high marks.
And the Big Hole Lodge Fish is, of course, the Big Hole River, the famous Big Hole. The Beaverhead, Wise River, the Upper Ritter Route, and some smaller waters in the area. And this is a place where you might have a chance to catch a Montana grayling on a fly. So, it's [00:42:00.480] a pretty cool operation. They're wonderful, wonderful people. And I highly recommend it.
The outfitter this week is Rock On Charter Fishing. And Scott Barnaby, who runs this outfitting service, also runs Orvis Chesapeake Bay Fly Fishing School. He founded the Chesapeake Bay Fly Fishing School. And they fish obviously Chesapeake Bay. And that's a place I've never been to, but [00:42:30.079] I've always wanted to go to because it's such a large, diverse estuary that has all kinds of fish in it. I think there's something like 300 species of finned fish in the Chesapeake Bay. And it's a place I've always wanted to go to, but never have. And so, if you're in the D.C. or Virginia, Maryland area, it's a pretty easy trip for you. Nice day trip. They fish for striped bass. They fish for bluefish, speckled sea trout, Spanish [00:43:00.179] mackerel, cobia, and redfish. So, great mixed bag fishery there. Of course, the striper is probably the premier target there, but you can also chase these other species. So, that's another place that I highly recommend.
And finally, an independent endorsed guide is Captain Matt Miles. Matt has also won Orvis Endorsed Guide of the Year. [00:43:30.340] He's a good friend, although I haven't fished with Matt. I've had him on the podcast here. I've talked to him quite a bit. And I know a lot of people who have fished with Matt and have had just a wonderful day. Matt's a great teacher and a very skilled angler. He has guided in Western United States, and now he's back home in the Virginia area. And Matt specializes in muskies, smallmouth bass, trout, and striped bass. He's based [00:44:00.159] in Lynchburg, Virginia. So, again, it's within reach. His operation is within reach of lots and lots of people who live on the East Coast. And great guy to call if you're looking for a day trip.
So, those are three suggestions for places, no matter where you live, if you want to take a fishing trip. And a day with a guide is like graduate school for fly anglers. I fish a fair amount [00:44:30.000] with guides, and most of the time the guys are young enough that I've been fly fishing since before they were born, yet every time I go with a guide, young or old, I learn some cool new things. I don't think I've ever fished with a guide when I haven't learned something new. So, if you're looking to expand your knowledge in fly fishing, one of the best ways to do it is to fish with an Orvis-endorsed guide.
Well, my guest today here live in my podcast studio is the amazing [00:45:00.739] Shawn Combs, Orvis Rod and Reel developer, head of product development for fishing and hunting at Orvis, and pretty good fishing buddy. Shawn, you and I have had lots of fun trips together, haven't we?
Shawn: Many adventures.
Tom: And there's lots of stories that we can't tell, right?
Shawn: We could tell them.
Tom: No, we're not going to.
Shawn: We should.
Tom: No, we're not going to tell.
Shawn: Different podcast?
Tom: Yeah, different podcast. Different podcast.
Shawn: [00:45:30.438] All right. All right. All right.
Tom: But today we're going to talk about... Shawn, I get a lot of questions about people. I get a lot of fly rod choice questions. "What fly rod do I get? This is what I'm going to be doing." Which is great. The people give me as much information as possible, and then I'm able to help them choose a fly rod. But one of the questions I get are the various rod series that Orvis sells and what you get in [00:46:00.639] each series and what you don't get. So, I want to start with, first of all, a question. I just did a web search, and I saw some fly rods that I could buy for $30, $39. What are these fly rods like?
Shawn: Yeah, so typically what I would say is a sub-$100 fly rod is going to...you're [00:46:30.159] going to end up compromising quite a bit. You're going to be able to cast a fly line. You're going to be able to catch fish. But really, when it comes down to it, you're going to have a rod that may be labeled as a 5-weight. Who knows if it is? It's going to feel probably very slow and cumbersome. Sometimes slow rods are good. In this case, what I would say is you're going to fight the rod quite a bit, trying to control the cast and make a good cast.
[00:47:00.420] Often, if you think about it, pick another hobby that you have, whether that's skiing, biking, tennis, whatever, and you'll see that you can buy equipment for those hobbies at a really affordable price point. And you really, honestly, you would go into it and say a pair of snow skis, you're going to not have the performance that you would expect out of that piece of equipment. And [00:47:30.900] sometimes it comes with durability. Sometimes it comes with just the casting performance, the fishability of it. The fit and finish is something that also comes up. And this isn't like, are the guides wrapped well enough and things like that, but is the reel seat something that's just the hood going to loosen up as you're casting and you're fishing it?
So, I think there's a lot of compromise in a lower sub-$100 [00:48:00.199] fly rod that really it is a gateway to buying better fly rods. And if you're thinking about this, anyone getting into fly fishing is really going to do themselves a great deal of service of spending just a little bit more and getting something that they can keep and use for a longer period of time. I often cringe at those entry-level products that seem too good to be true. And I [00:48:30.079] used to tell people it's just one step closer to the landfill on products like that, because it's not so much that you're going to grow out of that product. I think you're going to be disappointed. You're not necessarily going to get hooked in fly fishing because you're going to struggle with casting the rod, and you're going to really probably get turned off just as that barrier to entry in learning everything [00:49:00.400] in casting and fishing. It's not going to do you much service there.
And I've got to be honest. One time I was in a carp fishing tournament called the Carp Throwdown. And at the end, there was a two-way tie between myself and someone else for Top Weight Angler. And I had the tiebreaker, Conway Bowman, set this up. Him and Al set it up as they picked this old, [00:49:30.000] pretty junky, inexpensive rod. And it was a distance and accuracy casting between myself and the other person. And I've got the luxury of fishing and casting really nice fly rods at Orvis. And so I pick up this rod, and I was like, "Is this a fly rod or a spinning rod?" Was the first thought. And I gave it a couple of wiggles. And the rules were you couldn't precast it. You just had one cast. As soon as you start to make your cast, you can make [00:50:00.099] as many false casts as you want. But it was distant, and they had, like, a stuffed animal of a shark, and you had to hit it, and it was at least 70, 80 feet out.
And I remember standing in front of everybody going, "Oh, my gosh, these people think that I'm a fraud. How did I catch a carp in Lake Henshaw?" And I remember kind of struggling through with this rod and going, "Oh, well, that's what the difference is," then and there. And it has a lot to do with the characteristics [00:50:30.360] of is it tracking well? How does it recover? And I'd say anybody that goes out, before you buy a fly rod, try to cast it. See if it suits your style. And if you don't have a style yet, talk to a local expert at a fly shop and have them walk you through the different rods as well. But we're going to try to break down as you go through the progression of Orvis rods from the Encounter to the Helios to [00:51:00.260] kind of give you something to think about as you go in and you start to test cast these different rods.
Tom: Yeah. So, the Encounter rod is the least expensive rod that Orvis sells. But it... Excuse me. It's only sold as an outfit, right? It's only sold with a rod, reel and line, and leader, I think.
Shawn: Currently, it is only sold as an outfit. [00:51:30.139] However, for 2025, and this just goes along with Orvis' commitment to getting people into fly fishing, keeping them into fly fishing, and helping them on their journey, we'll be offering that rod as a rod only. And I believe it's somewhere between $149 and $179, something like that, which is pretty remarkable. I mean, those are great casting rods. I think is what we call a first handshake. [00:52:00.320] If you're getting into fly fishing or if you're getting a fly rod for someone as a gift, they make a great entry to the sport. You can really do a lot with them. You could put me in a drift boat on the Missouri River, and I would be tickled to fish a 9-foot-5-weight Encounter. We'll talk about it. I probably have a couple gripes of well, I wish I had my 905 F Helios, but I could definitely have a good day.
Tom: Okay. And the next step up [00:52:30.519] is the Clearwater. Exactly what is the difference between the Encounter and the Clearwater?
Shawn: So, there's two ways to grade a fly rod. There's the cosmetics, the fit and finish, the pieces of the puzzle, the reel seat, the cork, the guides, all of the accessories that come onto a fly rod. And then there's really what I like to [00:53:00.059] focus on is the blank itself. And the blank is about what type of material selected for the rod itself. And as you go to Clearwater, you're going to get a better material package in both the main fiber, the scrim, and the resin that holds everything together. And that's really going to show up in a rod that's going to cast... And this would be a trend as we go through and progress through these rods. It's going to have more control. It's going to track better. It's going to recover better, and it's going to feel crisper.
[00:53:30.679] You'll definitely, as a caster, start to fill the line load the rod a lot better. And from a timing standpoint, it's going to be way more forgiving if you're out of time a little bit, or if you drift your hand, it'll have a little bit of that autocorrect in it. The total loads of the rods, you're going to have a rod, whether it's a 5-weight, an 8-weight, a short or a longer rod, you're going to have a lot more control. [00:54:00.500] You're going to be able to generate a lot more line speed, which is going to make for a more precise cast, and it's going to get closer to that look, point, cast, and hit the target kind of response that you want out of the product.
Tom: Is that because of tracking? In other words, the Encounter is going to have a little more wiggle at the end of the cast, to use a very technical term.
Shawn: Technical terms. [00:54:30.159] Technically, it's going to have a lot more wiggle throughout the cast. So, a lot of people think about, "Oh, what does the rod look like at the end of the cast, and is it throwing sine waves into the fly line and so on and so forth?" But the tracking is really something that happens throughout the cast itself. Really good casters can kind of compensate for that. A couple of false casts and they'll go, "Yeah, I know what's going on."
But a Clearwater, and as you go into Recon, [00:55:00.139] it's going to be a more refined tool from a fly rod from the blank design itself. And you got tracking is definitely going to improve from an Encounter to Clearwater as it would from Clearwater to Recon and Recon to Helios. And the recovery is part of it as well. But how the rod... And you have to think about what the blank's doing for you. It is storing energy, and it's returning that energy. So, there's really a coefficient, if you will, [00:55:30.619] of energy transfer that is going to become more precise, more optimized as you go up the line.
Tom: Okay. And something that some people don't know, but we're very transparent about it, is that the Encounter and the Clearwater rods, the two lower-priced rods, are not made in USA. And I know that [00:56:00.179] we've tried to hit the Clearwater price point by making them in our own rod shop. We would love to make all of our rods in our rod shop. But the problem is that the labor cost and the material cost is just too high, right? You want to talk a little bit about the Clearwater and how you tried to make it in our rod shop.
Shawn: So, in the '90s, we made [00:56:30.179] all the Clearwater rods. They were two-piece rods. We made them in the factory in Manchester, Vermont. And as the cost of labor, cost of materials started to increase, we had offshored those. We import, and we have a fantastic partner that we work with. We design the Clearwater rods. We lay out the tapers and the load and profile strategies for both Clearwater and Encounter in the factory in Vermont. [00:57:00.619] It's just a matter of labor savings. It's a matter of really getting that fly rod performance to be affordable. And that's something that's, it's one of those things where we, I think about four years ago, five years ago, we looked at taking the rods back into the factory in Vermont, and it's just something that's on paper mathematically is pretty [00:57:30.139] hard without increasing the MSRP dramatically.
Tom: So, the big step between the... Well, there's a lot of big steps, I think, between the Clearwater and the Recon. First of all, the Recon is entirely made in our rod shop in Manchester, Vermont. Right?
Shawn: Correct.
Tom: And it's also got other differences. You want to go through the differences in the Recon?
Shawn: Yeah. Well, with no surprise, [00:58:00.219] one of the main differences is the fact that we're designing them or prototyping them or testing them. These are treated just like Helios rods from the design and development process, but when it comes to manufacturing, we're selecting materials that are better than anything that you can get from an import rod. They're not quite as good from a weight-to-strength ratio, a weight-to-power ratio [00:58:30.079] as what we use for Helios, but they're really fantastic. I mean, it's a wonderful material package.
And what you get from that, not only are you getting a made-in-USA rod, but you're getting one that rivals a lot of our competitors' top-tier rods from a cast ability, from a performance standpoint, swing weight, which is something that I think is really important when you're out fishing all day long and you're not fighting the rod. Throughout your cast you're feeling more of the rod, [00:59:00.099] you're feeling it load. Swing weight is something that really amplifies that. And so, Recon's have...
Tom: Shawn, before you go any further, can you describe... Sorry to interrupt...
Shawn: No, you're good.
Tom: ...but can you describe exactly what swing weight is and actually how it's measured?
Shawn: Right. No problem. So, swing weight, first of all, when people hear the word weight, they think about putting something on a scale and seeing how much it weighs. No different than you or I stepping on a scale. Swing [00:59:30.139] weight is really a dynamic weight. It's where the mass distribution across the blank from where you hold it in the grip to the tip section. It's how that is distributed closer to the hand. So, you have less levered weight.
You'll often hear levered weight and swing weight interchangeably. And you think about the swing part. Well, that's the action of swinging the rod or casting the rod back and forth. A rod that has a higher swing weight is going to have more mass towards the tip end of the rod, and that's going [01:00:00.099] to feel heavier in your hand, torquing on your wrist, if you will, throughout the cast. It's also at the end of the cast, a rod that has a higher swing weight, that mass is going to overtravel more, causing the recovery to lengthen and take longer.
So, I think it's super important. A lot of people...the wiggle test. Here's a wiggle test again. A lot of people get in a fly shop, they'll pick up a rod, and they'll go, [01:00:30.000] "Oh, wow, this is..." They'll wiggle it. They're really kind of perceiving and testing in the store what the swing weight is. Very few people shop for fly rods with a scale in their pocket and lay it out and weigh the rod. All these rods, a 9-foot 5-weight, might weigh 2 and 3-quarters of an ounce. If I put a 3-ounce rod in your hand, you probably wouldn't be able to perceive the difference. That quarter ounce is really [01:01:00.460] not very noticeable.
As soon as I put a heavy swing weight rod and a light swing weight rod in your hand and you want out to cast it, it would almost feel very feathery. Even though it's going to generate more load, higher line speed, have more control, and be better tracking, it feels really feathery and light. And that comes across from whether you're streamer fishing and you're casting a big streamer all day, or if you're dry fly fishing and you don't want the fatigue that comes along with kind [01:01:30.219] of a heavier rod. And the best example, even though they're typically shorter, is if you take a Bamboo rod and you take a Helios 5-weight and say a Bamboo 1856, you can perceive the difference in swing weight pretty quickly while casting.
Tom: Okay. Now another little sidebar here before we get more into the Recon in depth. I [01:02:00.159] believe there are rods where the blank is made overseas, typically in Asia, and it's assembled in the States, and they call it a made-in-USA rod. Is that correct?
Shawn: I think that that may have been a theme a couple of decades ago, but I'm pretty sure that when it comes to made-in-USA country of origin regulations, most of that has [01:02:30.280] been pretty much sussed out. There's very few rod companies. I mean, sometimes you'll see companies that will produce a blank in the States and then send it offshore to have it assembled. So, the guides will be put on. Winding and sizing. The cork and the reel seat we put on.
There are a number of fly rods, though, in the last 15 years that they'll kind of have the "Assembled in" [01:03:00.380] or they'll show, "Look, we've got a coating drum, a sizing station, or we're putting a reel seat on. And I think that that trend has almost subsided. I can't think of a... I mean, I could probably search Instagram and come up with five or six companies that are doing that on a smaller scale. But for the most part, those companies are [01:03:30.440] kind of coming clean with these are imported rods. And there was a period of time where if you followed a company on Instagram and you saw somebody putting rods in boxes in a warehouse here in the United States, you would think, "Oh, it's made in the USA." But those weren't, and it's a little bit deceitful.
Tom: Okay. So you think that it's pretty clean and apparent now these days?
Shawn: Yeah, I mean, from my perspective, I think so, [01:04:00.139] but tomorrow there might be three new rod companies.
Tom: Yeah, not so in reels, though, right? You suspect that some of the made-in-USA reels are only assembled in USA?
Shawn: I think the stickers on the boxes started changing a little bit. And I think those have a lot of...they've gotten a lot tighter and cleaner on Assembled In versus Manufactured or Made In United States.
Tom: Okay. So, it's a lot more transparent now.
Shawn: I think so. Yeah.
Tom: Okay. So, back to the [01:04:30.219] Recon, Shawn. Talk a little bit more about the Recon and the differences between the Recon and the Clearwater and then between the Recon and our flagship Helios.
Shawn: Yeah. So, I mean, the Recon, Simon Perkins, and I have this conversation all the time. It's the hardest rod to really understand when you come in the lineup because it overdelivers on performance. It is at that mid-tier price point. And people often [01:05:00.139] as a consumer you're thinking, "Well, it can't be that good." It truly actually is that good. I mean, those rods, I really enjoy fishing them. And often there're some really sweet hot rods in there that do everything that you want, and you kind of scratch your head at the end of the day, and you think, "Well, why would I spend more money?"
And then there's other consumers that look at it and they say, [01:05:30.460] "Well, geez, Made in the USA, is it really worth that much more? Has the same guarantee. I cast both of them." And really, to those consumers, it's more about a pride factor of it's made in the USA. And it's more about the fact that it's they are really made in a state-of-the-art facility using better materials. You might not see it in the parking lot, but when you start [01:06:00.019] fishing, they're way more intuitive. They're easier to fish and cast in that sense, and they make a great rod for both fresh and saltwater.
Tom: One of the things we should make clear, and I think it might be a perception among some people, is that the blank and the Recon and the Helios rods are the same, and they are not right. It is not the same graphite, not the same taper.
Shawn: No, no, there's nothing about them. [01:06:30.500] In some industries, you see this happen often where the mid-priced rod or the mid-priced snowboard or skis would be a trickle down from the outgoing flagship product last generation. The next year, when the new flagship comes out, they would take the design of the old one and trickle it down. And it's not something that we do. We actually use a different material package that has some benefits for sure.
From [01:07:00.079] I would say, a toughness standpoint, Recon rods use a slightly lower modulus material package throughout the tip and tip mid. They have a little bit larger wall thickness. They're a bit more from at a slight weight penalty. They will carry close to the same durability from impacts of B chains or lead eyes or something like that from a streamer. So, they're really [01:07:30.260] a workhorse of a rod. And I always smile when I see guides that have a couple of Recons, a couple of Helios rods. And they make for great work day in, day out, in those guides' boats.
Tom: Yeah, the Recon is such a popular high-end guide rod. So, what do you miss with [01:08:00.239] a Recon that you get in a Helios?
Shawn: So, this is going to be a pretty easy one. So, Helios rods, not only do you have the F and the D series, but if you back up from that, they're made with high-temperature-cure thermoplastic resins, which are going to deliver the highest level of energy transfer. They're going to be the best tracking rods. They're going to have the fastest recovery. They are really crisp in casting [01:08:30.020] and clean casting rods.
One of the things that I think you'll notice when you go from a Recon to a Helios is how the Helios stays connected to the caster. You always have feedback throughout the casting stroke, and that's really critical not only for a beginner but from an experienced caster just to know, if you're focused on a fish, it's sipping, and you make some false casts, you don't have to look back to see where your loop is. Are you ready [01:09:00.100] to go for your forward stroke or whatever? It's just a more connected experience.
And then beyond that, you have the benefits in that thermoplastic package of having the ability to reduce swing weights, making rods that have slightly thinner walls in the tip and tip midsections, reducing the swing weight, making it where it's just even more so connected without sacrificing durability. So, you have a higher strength-to-weight ratio with those thermoplastic [01:09:30.359] resins.
The fiber package itself, again, it's about energy transfer. And then as you get out of the blank into the rest of the rod, you're going to get really nice burrowed hardwood inserts on the freshwater rod reel seats. You've got type three anodized aluminum reel seat hardware. You've got the best-grade cork handles that you can get. And I mean, the same people are winding and sizing to the [01:10:00.159] same level of perfection from a finished standpoint on both Recons and Helios. But they're really, really, really nice, and I say that that's really the behind-the-scenes part.
You also, in key models, you get an F and a D choice. So, instead of taking the 905, 9-foot-5-weight Recon, where it's a little bit of an in-between rod from a [01:10:30.380] slower, fuller-flexing, not really full-flexing, but a slower rod in the F. And the D, you ramp it up a little bit, and it's got more horsepower and higher line speed. A Recon sits just about in between those two. So, as you go to Helios, you have a choice of am I going to be fishing bigger dries? Am I going to be fishing in heavier wind? Or am I going to be in a delicate presentation situation where tracking, [01:11:00.699] control, and feel is of most importance in the cast in that situation?
So, I think that choice of the two is something that's really important, whether that's in a 5-weight, an 8-weight, a 6-weight, a 4-weight, so on and so forth. It really gives you a little bit more control of making the choice of I'm looking for presentation or I'm looking for straight-line speed. I want to get to the fish as fast as possible [01:11:30.039] in, say like a saltwater situation.
Tom: So, I'm going to put you on the spot here. For general trout fishing, 9-foot-5-weight, are you going to pick a D or an F?
Shawn: So, I've fished an F. I mean, well, truth be told, I have both. And...
Tom: No surprise.
Shawn: ...to go even further, I've got both on the boat rigged. And I [01:12:00.640] tend to grab the 905 F for dry fly fishing on smaller dries, like, say, 14s and smaller. I tend to grab that. Even if it's windy. I find that rod has a really good. I mean, just a really great feel or great control. I'm really confident with that rod, a pro trout taper fly line. And if I go into a situation where I hop on a guide's [01:12:30.300] boat, I have no idea how they're going to want to fish. If they're going to throw small streamers, big drives, indicator rigs, whatever, then I'm probably, if I could only take one rod in a western, could be windy, don't know what I'm fishing, I'm probably going to find the versatility in a 905 D. But if I'm somewhere that I know I'm going to be targeting a certain type of fish, certain setup, then the 905 F is my choice.
Tom: Okay.
Shawn: [01:13:00.000] That's two answers, right?
Tom: Yeah. Yeah, I know it's tough. It's tough. I'm an F person almost all the time just because that's usually what I have in my hand. And I don't fish the Ds enough to really have a good feel for them.
Shawn: Yeah, it's funny; I've found that I've really fallen in love with the load and the profile and casting characteristics of an F. And when [01:13:30.239] I fish out west, if I'm fishing foam, I'm usually fishing a 906 F on bigger water. I mean, I'll carry a 904, 905, 906. And if I'm wade fishing and I'm going to be in smaller water and smaller dries, the four is really my go-to. And if it is a size up and fly size, not necessarily fish size, but in fly size, I'll go up to that 906 F and have a blast. And I find running [01:14:00.319] big salmon flies, hoppers, the 906, you can really drill the bank and pick it apart and be intentional with where you want your fly to be, and it's a lot of fun.
But as soon as I put a streamer on any kind of sink tip, I go straight to the Ds. Yeah, most of that is the lifting power, to if you don't want to retrieve all the way to the boat and you want to pull a depth charge line with a bigger streamer [01:14:30.300] out of the water, the lifting power and the backbone of a D is something I find super advantageous.
Tom: Okay. Interesting. Let's talk about the idea of someone that says, "Well, I'm a beginner, and I won't know the difference between a Clearwater and a Helios to jump, or an Encounter and a Helios. I'm just starting out." Is there an advantage? [01:15:00.119] If someone who's starting out is sure they're going to stick with fly fishing and they can afford it, is there a reason to go jump right to the Helios if you're starting out?
Shawn: I think 100%. One of the things that I noticed a lot, we have our fishing schools across the street from the flagship, and they give casting instructions with Helios rods. And really, [01:15:30.539] truly, even beginners there, because of that connected feel and the accuracy, they become more confident. They can also see and feel their mistakes, and they can correct them. And the rod, they're not really having to work around the rod as much. And so the rod itself is truly a better casting tool and is accessible regardless of your experience level.
And I think that that's something where [01:16:00.000] they say, there's a saying anyway, and it's buy once, cry once. And I think that that really applies in the situation where if you're buying a 9-foot-5-weight, why, if you can afford it, you might as well go right ahead and go all in. Make that investment and have that rod set because surely you're going to get hooked; you're going to want to streamer rod or something like that. And that's usually those secondary rods that you're not going to fish as much, not [01:16:30.300] rely on them as much. We call them quiver rods. I usually tell people, "Hey, if you're going to still head one week out of the year, three or four days, think about a Recon or think about a Clearwater for that. But if you're going out and you're going to use this rod 20, 30 days a year, get the one rod that's going to work for years to come."
Tom: Yeah, the bottom line is there is a price value [01:17:00.159] equation here, right? You do get more. You do get better when you spend more in fly rods. It's not the case in every consumer product, but I think at least in Orvis fly rods, you're going to get more.
Shawn: It's one of the coolest things. I mean, I was skiing yesterday, and it's a day or so after Christmas; you see a lot of people out with their new Christmas present skis. And you can easily overbuy skis [01:17:30.180] based on your ability to ski them. Skis, as they cost more, we get more performance-oriented; they're made specifically for skiing faster, more varied terrain. And a lot of people who are skiers that ski three or four times a year, they'll buy too much ski and it'll punish them. Just they'll be dead at slower speeds and so on and so forth. And that's one of the nice things about fly rods. It's really not the case. You're not going to have a hard time [01:18:00.079] or a higher barrier to entry as you spend more money. In most cases, they actually become easier and more friendly to the caster and easier to cast.
Tom: Yeah. So, the Helios is not just an expert rod.
Shawn: A hundred percent.
Tom: Yeah. I totally agree. And I see people all the time who have not done that much fishing, and they have another rod, and they pick up a Helios, and they say, "Wow, I can feel the difference in this. There is [01:18:30.000] a difference." Or they pick up a Recon and they say, "Wow, this does really feel different."
Shawn: Yeah. It's one of the pieces of feedback we get from guides all the time: both in fresh and salt water is a customer shows up, or client shows up. They have their own fly rod. They've practiced with it. They feel really confident. They're going to go bonefishing or trout fishing or tarpon fishing. And they really want...they're really insistent about using their [01:19:00.020] own rod because they're comfortable with it. Usually the guide says, "Sure. No problem. It's your day." And they watch them. If it's windy, they're struggling a little bit. And at some point after lunch, they say, "You know what? I've got this Helios rod. You want to try it?" And it's just like a light switch. And it's some of my favorite feedback, right? It's just knowing that you're making that difference where people are having a better time.
It's huge to [01:19:30.640] really stay engaged in the sport. It's a success-driven sport. There are a lot of people that say, "Hey, it's just a good day to be out, but really, everybody's felt it when you go home skunked, and you're kind of like, "What am I doing? Why did I do this for the last five hours?" And so anything that puts the odds in your favor a little bit, I think, is worth it.
Tom: Yeah, absolutely. [01:20:00.079] Yeah. If you're serious about it, you know you're going to stick with it, then it's worth it. So, Shawn, thank you for clearing these things up and hopefully answering some questions that people have about different rod series. When's your next fishing trip? Where's your next fishing trip?
Shawn: I think we're supposed to get some rain in 50s. I think I'm going to go fish trout spey just south of here, probably [01:20:30.300] on Sunday with a couple of buddies if you want to come along. Maybe.
Tom: Maybe.
Shawn: Maybe.
Tom: Yeah, maybe.
Shawn: Future stories we can't tell on the podcast.
Tom: No, but do you want to tell one story?
Shawn: Yeah.
Tom: Because I know you love telling stories.
Shawn: It's got to be your story, though. You got to pick it, and I'll try to...I'll do my best to tell it.
Tom: Let's see. How about the time that you fed line to that fish [01:21:00.220] into your back?
Shawn: I heard you talk about this. I listen. I listen. Okay. Well, that's fair enough. So, Tom and I, we go down to the Delaware in the spring. We try to fish three or four days consecutively. We're not too fussy about what hatch or what's happening. We know it's always going to be productive. At least we cross our fingers and hope so. And there was [01:21:30.060] a great debate between the two of us. It's been mentioned before of the best approach for feeding a fish, a dry fly on the Delaware.
Tom: From a drift boat.
Shawn: From a drift boat. And so there's really three versions. Version one is from upstream down and across with a reach cast for pressured fish, trying to keep the boat away as much as possible. [01:22:00.779] I mean, I'd say anytime if you could get out of a boat and feed the fish from foot, you're going to be able to get closer and all that. But I kept setting Tom up on these down and across, and he looked at me, "The fish is down there, Shawn. What are we doing? You get up next to it, parallel, perpendicular, and I'll feed it from there." "Okay, sure. No problem." So, I would set him up best I could, and he would feed the fish. And he goes, "Yeah, just like that."
[01:22:30.840] And so this kind of went on. And as he was rowing me into fish, I would say, "No, no, no, no. Stay 30, 40 feet upstream from it, and 30, 40 feet across." And there's some triangle geometry in here. And I would probably lead the fish by, I'd say, 5 feet, and with a reach cast, try to get a good drift into it. And the Delaware's got microcurrents and everything else. And the fish really are pretty picky. They're pretty keyed in a very narrow [01:23:00.319] feed window. So, I would maybe not be as successful. And Tom said, "Why don't you just do the perpendicular thing?" And for bank feeders, I really kind of like the down-and-across thing.
And so, at some point late in the night, there're some fish. I set the boat up, and I said, "Here, let me sit in the front." And he goes, "Where are the fish? Where are the fish?" And I said, "They're about 80 feet down." [01:23:30.180] And so I ripped off a bunch of fly line, and he's like, "Are you kidding me? What are you doing?" And I made about as long a cast as I could. And I start feeding line, and before I know it, I must have led the fish by, Tom would say, 40 feet. I would say at least 38. And I'm feeding line out, and I've got a good drift. I can see my bug just barely. And next thing you know, I got backing in my hand. The fish eats. And as you might [01:24:00.100] expect, and as Tom called it, there was no way I was going to come tight on this fish. And I think the backing went around my head on the hook set.
Tom: Yeah, I think so.
Shawn: It was a mess. We had a good laugh. And from that day on, we started parking a little closer to him.
Tom: Yeah, we still have a difference of opinion. My philosophy on fish like that is to drill them 6 inches or a foot ahead of the fish. [01:24:30.260] And yours is to lead them by like 5 feet. And I don't think we're ever...
Shawn: More like three.
Tom: Yeah. I don't think we're ever going to agree on the right approach on those fish.
Shawn: Well, see, the best part about this story is there's no right approach to fly fishing.
Tom: Yeah, that's for sure.
Shawn: As long as you're having fun.
Tom: Yep, and we do have fun, don't we?
Shawn: That we do.
Tom: And there are lots of other stories that we can't tell you.
Shawn: Can [01:25:00.039] I give them the...
Tom: What?
Shawn: I just want to [vocalization]. Attention. Attention. Mr. Rosenbauer is entering the pool. Please wind up and move to the tailout. It works every time. You have so many fans, and I appreciate and adore every one of them.
Tom: I do, too. And we laugh about this, but people that we see on the river often [01:25:30.279] recognize my voice because I'm not that distinctive looking other than I'm friggin short. And people are always really, really nice and...
Shawn: Oh, it's the best. It's honestly, I keep a mental scorecard of how many nice anglers there are that say, "Hey, Tom. I listen to your podcast." It's super awesome.
Tom: It's always flattering. It's always nice to hear. All right, Shawn. Well, [01:26:00.039] that's enough stories. I know we could probably fill about three or four hours of your stories, but we're going to cut this off now. And I want to thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge here today and coming over to the house. And Happy New Year, and I hope you get some fish on Sunday.
Shawn: Thanks. Happy New Year.
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have [01:26:30.260] a question or a comment? Send it to us at