What Rahm Emanuel Loves About Fly Fishing
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the Orvis Fly Fishing podcast. This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And my guest this week is Rahm Emanuel. And, you know, I like to have people on the podcast who are public figures or who are interesting people and see what they get out of fly fishing and what they [00:00:30.050] think of fly fishing and how they incorporate fly fishing into their lives. You know, there are a lot of public figures who fly fish, everyone from Harrison Ford to Jimmy Kimmel to Dick Cheney. And, I'd love to have all those people on the podcast, but I haven't been able to get hold of them.
So, anyway, when I find an interesting person who's interested in coming on the podcast, I like to talk to. And you don't have to worry, regardless of your [00:01:00.130] political affiliations or leanings. We don't talk any politics on this podcast. It's all fishing. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Ram. He was a lot of fun. He has a great sense of humor and a lot of enthusiasm, and I really enjoyed talking to him.
But before we do that, a few announcements. One is I have some hosted trips coming up, and I do about a half dozen hosted trips a year. And [00:01:30.069] some of them don't even get advertised because they fill up by word-of-mouth before we even put them on the website. But I have some coming up that have some spaces, I'm gonna be in Iceland, July 15th through 20th, fishing for Atlantic salmon, brown trout, and char, both sea run browns and landlocked browns, and also sea run char and resident char. In August, 22nd to 28th, [00:02:00.701] I'm gonna be at Casa Clarinda with Enrico Puglisi. We're gonna be chasing baby tarpon. This one is a trip that's only available for double occupancy. So, you gotta find a spouse or a fishing buddy or a significant other to share the room with you. There's no single rooms available on that particular trip because there's only three rooms available. It's pretty small operation. So, I'm looking forward to that one. I'm looking forward [00:02:30.453] to all of these.
And then, September 28th to October 4th, I'm gonna be hosting a trip to the Pyrenees in Spain, which I am, again, really, really excited about because I'd never been to Spain. And then, January 31st to February 2nd, 2026, I'm going to be hosting a trip to Argentina. Trout fishing. So if you're interested [00:03:00.085] in any of these, they're all listed on the Orvis website. Under the appropriate country, you'll find a list from my hosted trips there. But if you don't wanna fish with me, you want to fish with an Orvis-endorsed operation, you don't want to fish with me, there's lots of other places you can go. And I'm gonna tell you about three of them this week. One is our guide of the week, PJ Daley, in Maryland. And, I've fished with PJ [00:03:30.615] before. He's a wonderful guy. He's just a lot of fun. He's super knowledgeable and patient, and a great person to be on the water with for the day.
PJ fishes is the Savage River, a wonderful wild trout stream in the north branch of The Potomac, the Castleman, and he's also got some secret brook trout streams that he showed me when I was there with him. And he also fishes for smallmouth bass in the warmer months of the year. [00:04:00.837] So if you're in the Mid Atlantic area, PJ is a great guy to hook up with and learn about some of those local streams there.
Our outfitter of the week is Reel 'Em In Guide Service. And they're in Northern Georgia, and, you know, you wouldn't... and they specialize in trout. You wouldn't think that anyone would go to Georgia trout fishing except people who live in Georgia know that there's damn good trout fishing in Georgia, [00:04:30.404] from tailwaters with big trout, big wild trout, to mountain streams with native brook trout, the southernmost range of the native brook trout. And Reel 'Em In Guide Service specializes in this Northern Georgia area. They have a guiding permit for the Chattahoochee National Forest, and they can get you to places that you wouldn't be able to find on your own. So, you know, they've got really highly trained guides. [00:05:00.894] They'll get you to out-of-the-way places, and you will learn a lot. So if you're in Georgia or South Carolina or that part of the world, if you're in Atlanta on business or your flight gets canceled, you might wanna look up Reel 'Em In Guide Service.
And then our lodge of the week is the White River Inn. Now, if you've been around fly fishing and trout fishing anytime at all, you've heard of the White River in Arkansas. It's got [00:05:30.980] potentially the largest brown trout in the world, and it's got a lot of big trout, both brown trout and rainbow trout, wild trout and stock trout. It's a big river. There's lots of room and, really good hatches and some of the best fly anglers in the world spend time on the White or actually live on the White. So it's in Cotter, Arkansas, which is kind of the central location of all the great trout fishing on [00:06:00.888] the White River. Again, this is one of the most productive tailwater trout rivers in North America. It's got year-round trout fishing, and many people catch their personal best brown trout at the White River Inn. It's a great river for beginners as well as really advanced fly fishers that are hunting for a trophy brown trout. So the lodge itself is beautiful 7,000-square-foot lodge [00:06:30.963] in a bluff. It overlooks the river. It's got five-star meals.
And if you wanna see what the lodge looks like, there's a great video on the Orvis website on the White River Inn's listing that shows you what the lodge and the river look like. If you wanna see videos about fishing on the White River, just go to YouTube. There are lots and lots and lots of videos showing big trout being caught on the White River. So if you've never been there, [00:07:00.720] it definitely should be on your list because it's one of the premier trout fisheries in North America.
And one final announcement. Just one more. I'm gonna be at the Battenkill Fly Fishing Festival in Arlington, Vermont, May 3rd, 2025. It's a great local event that draws people from far and wide. It's become, I think it's in its third [00:07:30.110] or fourth year, and it's gotten bigger and better every year. And I'm gonna be doing a presentation on finding trout at 11 a.m. at the festival, and there's gonna be a great lineup there of speakers and presenters. My nemesis, Tim Flagler, is gonna be there. Fred Campbell from Hooke is gonna be showing some videos. Rob Heel from The New Fly Fisher, and great author, Monty Burke, is gonna be [00:08:00.395] there. And there are lots of booths and events, and there's free casting lessons and all kinds of stuff going on. So, check out the Battenkill Fly Fishing Festival in Arlington, Vermont.
All right. Let's do the Fly Box. And I have no phone calls this week. I didn't get any that I wanted to answer. So, it's all emails this week. Hopefully, if you have an [00:08:30.739] interesting question, please attach a voice file to your phone and send it to me so that I can, you know, have a few phone calls to play each week. By the way, if you wanna ask a question on the Fly Box, you can send your question to
All right. So first is Hugo writing in from across the pond.
"Quick question about traveling with fly rods. I've got a trip to Slovenia booked and will be flying with my gear for the first time. I hate to land and learn my gear has decided to go on a completely different holiday. I'm keen to bring the rods on board as a carry-on to avoid checked luggage fears. [00:09:30.004] What do you usually do when flying with gear?"
Well, Hugo, the first thing you wanna do before you fly with gear is check with the airline, because different airlines have different rules about what you can and cannot carry on board. And even the security people have different rules on what you can take through security. So, you know, I have heard of people having fly reels taken away from them because [00:10:00.184] your fly line could be used to strangle someone. And I've heard of flies taken away from people. I don't know how dangerous a size sixteen Adams could be on a plane, but, you know, we can't argue with those rules.
And when you carry your fly rods on a plane, you know, there's a chance that they might not have room in the overhead. And if they're nice and you get on early, they might put it in the closet [00:10:30.923] at the front of the plane. But if they don't fit in the overhead, it's gonna be done as checked luggage. So, you really have to check and, you know, you're taking your chances a little bit when you're flying with fly fishing gear.
Now, you ask me what I do. I always check my fly fishing gear, and I cross my fingers. But I fly Delta most of the time. Delta's never lost my luggage and never misplaced it. [00:11:00.539] So, you know, when I travel internationally, I have second thoughts if I'm not flying Delta, but I cross my fingers and check it. And so far, I've been lucky. So, I think airlines are better about luggage than they used to be. Anyway, there are other things to look into, but do your homework first before you walk on board with all your fly fishing gear to make sure that you can get it on board with you.
[00:11:30.597] Here's one from Dave from Upstate New York.
"My question is possibly a dumb one, but here it is. How do you fish plunge pools? I regularly fish a wonderful stream rebuilt through the direction of TU, and it's a constant presentation of plunge pools as it flows along. My instinct is to cast a split-shot weighted streamer into the confused flow and let it run through the deep turbulence. I'm hoping to entice that big fish feasting on constant food coming over the plunge as he rests [00:12:00.872] in the slower water at its base. It really works out that way. I've had great success targeting the fish which rim the tail out with nymphs, and I'm wondering if it's worth targeting that deep plunge at all. Is this a dumb question? How do you fish a plunge pool? Do you fish the plunge pool with heavy split-shot then re-rig and remove weight and target the tail out? I sure would appreciate your suggestions. Thanks for your advice and patience with our many questions. What a contribution you've made to our sport and passion, [00:12:30.169] a true ambassador."
Well, thank you, Dave. And, no, it's not a dumb question because I get this question all the time. And I think what happens is that we expect to catch more trout from that juicy deep water at the base of a waterfall. And, honestly, in my experience, fish don't feed there. They go there to hide when they're spooked, and when they go there [00:13:00.526] to hide, and not feed, it's gonna have a tough time catching them. You know, trout don't like turbulence. They don't like turbulence. They don't like a lot of bubbles. They can't see their food. They get bounced around too much. They can't hold their position. And, yeah, it looks like a good place, and it's nice and deep. And you'd think there'd be food flowing over the falls. But, you know, the food that flows over the falls is gonna end up in the tail of the pool or off on the side seams just as easily, [00:13:30.039] and that's a place where it's a hell of a lot easier for the fish to feed. So I don't doubt that you're catching more fish in the tail out because I think that's where fish feed the most. And, you know, there might be one big one lying at the base of the waterfall, but that fish might not be feeding, might just be resting or hanging out, or has been scared into that spot. So, I wouldn't feel so bad. I have the same experience, as do most other people in [00:14:00.289] the deep pools. But here's what I would do.
First of all, you wanna approach the pool from downstream or from off to the side where you can sneak up on it. And you wanna fish the tail out or those side seams thoroughly first before you scare all the fish in the pool. And then once you've done that, then you can head up and dunk your big streamer or big nymph with split shot at the head of the pool. You may have to re-rig [00:14:30.939] and see if you can get a fish out of there. But I think you're gonna catch most of your fish exactly where you've already caught the fish in the tail out. So fish the tail out first and then, you know, give it a try in that deep water, but you may be disappointed.
Here's one from Fred.
"I took my kayak to a community lake of one of our suburbs this week. It was more of a scouting mission than anything. I struck up a conversation with a guy putzing around in his big bass boat [00:15:00.429] using only the trilling motor. He told me the lake was good for one to three pound bass, a lot of various sunfish, and some catfish. I inquired about carp as your podcasts have whetted my interest. He said he did not know about that but did know that koi had been stocked in the lake. Would you fish for koi the same way you would pursue carp? As everyone must appropriately end or start their emails to you, thank you for all the work you put into educating us out in [00:15:30.000] podcast land. Because of you, I'm on a first-name basis with the managers of the Orvis stores in Miramar Beach, Florida, and Denver, and I live in Arkansas."
Well, Fred, thank you. And, yes, koi are actually a different species from common carp that we fish with, but they're related, and they have very, very similar habits. And, you know, it's kinda cool to catch a koi. For one thing, they're great for sight fishing [00:16:00.961] because you can see them. Carp can disappear pretty easily, but koi will stand out like a neon sign. And, yeah, they'll take the same techniques, the drag and draught technique, nymphs, small streamers, you know, bonefish flies, any little grubby buggy looking thing will work. But, yeah, you would fish for koi exactly the same way you fish for carp.
Here's one from Kurt from Ohio.
[00:16:31.414] "Love your podcast. I have a question. My daughter is getting married this May. I introduced her and her fiancé to fly fishing and would like to get them fly rods for their wedding gift. They will live in Northern Ohio near Steelhead Alley, but we also like to fish trout fish in small Smoky Mountain streams. Should I get them matching five-weight Orvis Clearwater rods or one steelhead rod, seven-weight, and one five-weight? What is your thought?"
Well, Kurt, you're asking a guy who sells fly rods for a living, [00:17:00.493] so I'm gonna tell you that you should get them a five each... get them each a five-weight and a seven-weight. But, seriously, those would be good options, you know, for the steelhead. And for the steelhead, I would go a ten-foot seven-weight, instead of a nine-footer. That's a little bit more useful when you're fishing for steelhead. You can get better drifts with a little bit longer rod. But, you know, you could [00:17:30.394] you could, could, could do both of those things with a six-weight. You know, six-weight would be okay for small Smoky Mountain trout seems a little heavy, but not bad. And you can land a lot of steelhead on a six-weight rod. It's gonna be a little bit more of a tussle, but you can do it, as a lot of people fish for steelhead in those smaller Lake Erie streams with a six-weight. So, either way is gonna work, you know, depends on your budget [00:18:00.575] and how much you love your daughter, I guess.
Here's one from Justin.
"A quick thank you for always being so vigilant about suggesting anglers check local regulations. In addition to learning what is legal or illegal, you can also learn some interesting tidbits about the local fisheries and how they operate. You also just saved me from bringing a piece of Orvis gear that could have gotten me into trouble due to my choice of usage. Lately, I've had a ton of success [00:18:30.045] targeting trout here in South Dakota with a three-fly Euro rig tied on tags. Generally, I put something gaudy and heavy as the point and decrease weight and size going up. I learned this from a guide in Colorado and it has been very successful in my local waters. Shameless plug. The Orvis dropper rig fly box makes storing these complicated rigs a cinch. The box doesn't come with instructions, but if you look carefully, there are places to stash the trailing tippet for ease of removal. [00:19:00.720] I use painters' tape to label them and all of my fly boxes for that matter, after our last correspondence. Anyway, as three fly rigs are illegal where I was about to travel to next, I'll pack my vintage Orvis dry fly box and have just as good a time."
Well, thank you, Justin, and glad I saved you from getting into trouble.
Here's one from Dan.
"I've written before asking for recommendations on a trout rod for fishing stockers [00:19:30.835] in the Lower Mountain Fork River. You made a great recommendation of the Clearwater 904 and the PRO Trout textured line. Then I listened to the podcast you did on what you get from upgrading your rod and decided I needed a recon instead. So thanks for costing me an extra 350 bucks. I just couldn't pull the trigger on the Helios, although I wanted to badly. Anyway, I'm writing to tell you what a great experience I had with Orvis customer service. I don't know if this kind of thing is the kind of thing [00:20:00.772] you read on the podcast, but I thought people might wanna know, especially if they're just starting to consider buying from Orvis. My chat with customer service this morning was, without a doubt, one of the best customer service experiences I've ever had. I believe the lady's name was April, hope I remember that right, and she was extremely pleasant to speak with. I mistakenly placed duplicate orders yesterday, Recon 904 and PRO Trout weight forward four, after the first order triggered my credit card's [00:20:30.734] fraud alert, and I didn't think it went through. I'm needing the order a day or two for a trip this weekend. So after seeing the original amount credited back to my bank, I placed the second order. When I checked this morning, both orders had been processed. April was extremely helpful in getting the second order canceled quickly and without issue, even taking the time to ask about my trip for which this purchase was made. I haven't dealt with any other fly fishing company, so I have no basis [00:21:00.993] for comparison on that level, but Orvis customer service is top-notch in my book."
Well, thank you, Dan. We pride ourselves on our service. Our customers are our most important asset, And it's really great to hear that you had such a wonderful experience with those great people at Orvis customer service.
Here's one from Michael from Oregon.
"I hesitated to send this email as you often get similar ones, but here it is. [00:21:30.568] There is a very popular spring creek in Central Oregon that the state stocks with large rainbows on a regular basis. They're hatchery fish, but they are big finicky eaters and is still a thrill to fool and hook. This creek is the only sight fishing I've ever done, and can be very frustrating as these fish are heavily pressured. While fishing this creek in mid-February, I came across a group that was rising pretty regularly and didn't care if I was there or not. From what I have learned about rise forms, it looked like they were [00:22:00.125] dining on emergers. So naturally, I tie on a size 20 midge dry and cast it out. My fishing plans never survived first contact with a river. In the space of fifteen to twenty minutes, I had five violent rises to my midge. Not a one actually touched the fly, but man, they sure made a lot of noise checking it out. The last one was pretty cool as it was at the end of the drift, and I could see the fish come off the bottom of probably five feet of water and make a pass at the fly.
My experience [00:22:30.184] fishing nymphs and egg flies in this river has been that I have to put the fly right in front of them before they will take it. Not within a few feet, but right in front of them. Since it is a spring creek, I would think the water temperature is constant year-round. Any idea why they would move so far for a midge pattern? If I would have had anything smaller, I would have tried it, but 20 is the smallest I have tied so far. And why didn't I try emergers? I wish I knew. An idea for keeping tippets from becoming [00:23:00.325] tangled up in your reel is to put a small hair tie on the rod handle in front of your reel and tuck the tippet underneath. That works when I am moving through brush and don't have the line rigged to fish. I just use a large hair tie on the reel, tucking then the end of the tippet or fly line underneath again when I break down the rod and reel it home. My experience is that rubber bands don't age well and can leave a gooey residue, hence the hair ties. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and expertise [00:23:30.285] and for the wonderful podcast over the years."
Well, thank you, Michael. That's a great tip, and I'm gonna try it myself, actually. I know where I can get a hair tie.
You know, I'm not sure why those fish rose so violently to your dry fly, but I can make a couple of guesses. One is that fish will take midges, adult midges [00:24:00.844] that are skittering across the surface. And you wouldn't think they would because it's a little tiny fly, but when the midges start skating around and when they're mating and skipping across the water, you can sometimes see pretty violent rises to a twitching midge or a skating midge. Whether they thought your fly was an adult midge, I don't know. But I think, obviously, they came to the fly. It [00:24:30.224] looked interesting, but it was, a, either too large, which, you know, size twenty is not that small for a midge, or b, it wasn't riding in the water properly. And as you said, you probably should have tried an emerger. I think that an emerger would have worked better.
So they came for the fly. They were interested in it. But when they got there, you know, a trout's vision isn't very good at distance, but it gets much, much better as they get closer. [00:25:00.630] And so, they probably decided that it was either it didn't look right or it was behaving unnaturally. But, you know, without actually watching them and trying different things, I can't really give you a firm answer on that.
Here's one from Jason from Tennessee.
"I would truly like to take a moment to thank you for all that you and Orvis do for the sport of fly fishing. You guys are awesome. [00:25:30.110] One of the most valuable single piece of advice I ever received came from this podcast when one of your guests said, "When you think the fly is hit bottom, set the hook and prove it." I think of that every time I am on the stream, and I know I am catching more fish now simply from setting the hook when I think it has only hit bottom. I can't thank you enough.
Also, from seeing you on videos and TV, I know you use the Orvis Sling Pack. So naturally, I purchased one because I think secretly, we all wanna be as cool as Tom Rosenbauer."
[00:26:00.560] Believe me, I'm not that cool. Ask my fishing buddies.
"We all know Orvis makes great products, and I can testify to the sling pack being a great product as well. However, I just couldn't get used to being without my vest. Finally, I realized I'm never gonna be as cool as the Fawns from Happy Days and he will never be as cool as Tom, so I went back to my vest and have never been happier."
By the way, the Fawns, Henry Winkler is a very serious fly fisher. [00:26:30.505] He loves fly fishing and he does a lot of it.
"Now for my questions. First, I fish a small stream close to my home very regularly and know it well. It is stocked with rainbows and a few browns. I drifted my fly through a run that I have fished many times and caught a rainbow. That wasn't a surprise, as they hold there on a regular basis. The surprise came when on the very next cast, I caught a smallmouth bass. I was shocked. I've never seen a [00:27:00.015] smallmouth bass that far up the stream before. I'm not sure how long I fished a run, but I did catch another rainbow out of that run before moving on. Is this normal? Will smallmouth bass and rainbows hold together? My son and I are planning a fishing trip this summer to Yellowstone. For me, this is a trip of a lifetime and a lifelong dream. My son is a good fisherman but has never really been interested in fly fishing until recently. He's 20 years old, so it's not like he is a small child, but I really want him to have a good time.
Do you think [00:27:30.055] he would have a better chance of success with a traditional fly outfit, or would he be better off with a euro outfit? I have both and really don't care which I use, but I'm not certain which I should let him have to practice with before our trip. I'm going to let him rock the sling pack, though. Thanks for all you do, and thanks for taking the time to read and answer all our questions. I can't tell you how many times another angler has asked a question that has helped me."
Well, first of all, sorry, the sling bag [00:28:00.015] didn't live up to your expectations, Jason, but I'm glad to hear that you're regifting it to your son.
You know, I don't know what to tell you about whether to use a regular fly rod or, you know, regular fly fishing or a Euro rig. You know, if he's done a lot of fishing, done a lot of bait fishing, he might be more comfortable with the Euro rig because, you know, it's kind of like drifting a worm or [00:28:30.214] a salted minnow, through a pool, in a way it's very similar to the way a really good bait angler would work the stream.
On the other hand, you know, dry flies, it can be a lot easier for novices, and if there's any good dry fly fishing, you know, you can see the fly, you can see the fish take the fly, and that can be easier. So I would say if you're faced with conditions where you don't [00:29:00.085] see a lot of insects and you don't see a lot of fish rising or you don't see any fish rising, then maybe the Euro outfit. But, you know, if not, if there's stuff going on, then, try the normal fly rod with a dry dropper. But, you know, as far as what to practice with beforehand, don't get your hearts set on using one rig or the other. Wait till you get there and look at conditions. And I would [00:29:30.420], you know, have him practice with a regular fly rod outfit and then have him practice with a Euro rig, before you go and be ready for both.
Regarding that smallmouth bass, yeah, particularly in stock streams where, you know, they'll stock trout in in rivers that might get too warm during the summer, but they're, you know, perfectly suitable for trout during the spring and fall. And even in streams that stay cold enough [00:30:00.534] for trout, they will live side by side with smallmouth bass. You know, they like similar water. Smallmouth will like a little bit slower water than a rainbow, and they have a little bit different feeding strategy. However, I have seen smallmouth bass rising to mayflies, tiny mayflies, just like a trout would. So they will eat the same stuff. They'll be in similar water, and it's not at all unusual [00:30:30.390] to find smallmouth bass and trout, even wild trout. You know, stock trout, yes, pretty common. Even wild trout, you will find them side by side with smallmouth bass. Absolutely.
Here's one from Chris from North Carolina.
"Thank you for everything you do for this wonderful sport. Your podcast and videos have been an invaluable resource for me and many others. Question one, knots and lesser-known tips. In the fly box section of the March 3 episode [00:31:00.140] on crayfish imitations with Jake Vilwak, you mentioned that pulling on the tag end of a knot can loosen it. That was new to me. Got me thinking. Are there other lesser-known knot tips I should be aware of, specifically for tippet to fly and fly to dropper connections for small mountain trout, what knots do you recommend for different presentations and why?
For the past year or so, I've been primarily using the Orvis knot because I find it quick and easy, and I haven't had issues with the knot failing from the tag pulling through [00:31:30.190] when I test the knot like I have with others. I don't think I've ever heard you recommend this knot. Are there any downsides to it that I should be aware of?
Question two. Saltwater casting in mangroves. In February, I took my first saltwater fly fishing trip in Islamorada, Florida. Preparing for the trip, I watched many of Pete Kutzer's casting videos and practice in my backyard a few times per week for about a month, focusing primarily on accuracy with an overhead cast within a 30 to 50 feet [00:32:00.548] with a nine-foot five-weight. I was consistently able to land within a two-foot circle with just one or two false casts. But once on the boat, I struggled to get my fly under the low mangrove branches where the juvenile tarpon were holding and got hung up a lot. Do you or Pete have a recommendation for practicing the technique needed to get under mangroves when casting from a boat? Is a sidearm cast better than overhead, or should it not matter much as long as you're casting fundamentals are sound? [00:32:30.693] I'm thinking of tipping a five-gallon bucket on its side and trying to land a fly inside. Would that be a good way to simulate the challenge? Or is there something else you'd recommend? On my next trip, I'd love to be better prepared and land more fish and fewer mangroves."
Well, Chris, first of all, yeah, there are very, very few knots, and none that I know of that we use regularly [00:33:00.687] in fly fishing where you want to pull on the tag end to tighten it. That is going to make the knot not seat properly. And so you wanna tighten the knot in the direction of pull. So you wanna hold on to the fly or your tippet ring or whatever you're tying to with one hand and pull on the standing part of the leader with the other. Now, sometimes, you have to gently pull on the tag end a little bit [00:33:30.109] to make things tighten properly. But once, you know, you kinda start out tightening the knot, make sure the tag end isn't gonna slip through. Pull on it a little bit gently to make sure it doesn't slip through. But then when you do your final tightening on the knot, you wanna wet the knot and then just pull it snug, pulling on the fly and the standing part of the leader. And, you know, that's the same with any knot that I know of.
[00:34:00.493] There may be some that people use that don't do that. Now, regarding the Orvis knot, that's a great knot. I use it occasionally, but I've just been using a clinch knot for so long and I trust it that I don't use anything else. And that's what I use for tying on a fly, for tying a dropper to the bend of the hook, for tying on a tippet ring, whatever. I use a clinch knot and not an improved, just a regular, and I'd go six turns. Just as you [00:34:30.114] can use five or six, but five or six turn clinch knot. But there are lots of good knots out there. And if the Orvis knot works for you, then use it. It may be even stronger than the clinch knot. It's a very, very, very reliable knot. So is the Davey knot. There are lots of knots out there that work really, really well. Just pick one, learn to tie it well, and be done with it. And you don't need to worry about changing to different knots [00:35:00.525] under different conditions unless you wanna tie on your fly with a loop knot or something, then you need a different knot. But, you know, don't go crazy trying to learn all these knots. Pick one you like, and if you like playing with knots, go ahead and try other ones. But, then, you know, if you wanna be efficient about it, learn one really well that you can tie, almost with your eyes closed during the dark. You're gonna be better off.
Regarding your question on saltwater casting, yeah, you need to use a sidearm cast, [00:35:30.905] and, you know, it's not a different casting motion at all. It's not a different cast. You just take that standard overhead cast and tip it over 90 degrees so that the fly line, instead of being above the water, is parallel to the water and use the exact same casting motions. Make sure your tip goes in a straight line. Make sure you stop the rod tip at the right place. [00:36:00.380] It's at the same spot that you would on an overhead cast, and just turn it over sideways. That will get you underneath those mangroves. You know, if you've got space underneath the mangroves and your line and your leader have to go under it. And with an overhead cast, they're gonna land on top of it. So, I think your idea of turning a bucket on its side is a great idea.
We do a similar casting drill. We do it for fun [00:36:30.678] here, and we try to get the fly inside the bucket. You might even put the bucket under an overhanging tree. That's gonna really simulate the mangrove situation. But once you start using that sidearm cast, you'll find that you, you know, you're gonna hook mangroves. You're gonna get caught. Everybody's gonna get caught. But, you know, if you don't get your fly in there, often you don't get fish. And guides understand that. And, you know, they're expecting you to get caught [00:37:00.307] in the mangroves every once in a while, and it's just gonna roll off them in there. And it should roll off you. You know, you're gonna hook mangroves. But you're also, with the side cast, gonna get your fly in there, where it counts.
All right, that is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Rahm about his experiences in fly fishing.
Well, my guest today is ambassador Rahm Emmanuel. And, ambassador, [00:37:30.500] welcome to the podcast.
Rahm: Well, thank you. Thank you, it's an honor to be here.
Tom: Yeah. Well, it's an honor to be talking to you. I don't get that many really famous people on the podcast. I get you know... I've had some who I consider famous people, writers and musicians, but, I don't think I've ever had a person of your stature on the podcast.
Rahm: Time for a first here, Tom. [00:38:00.030] So we're all the same when we're fly fishing. The fish don't care.
Tom: No. They sure don't. They sure don't. So I guess, first of all, I'd like to ask you how you got started in fly fishing? What gave you this bug?
Rahm: Well, literally, we were going on a... Well, let me back up. We were gonna go on a vacation to Argentina. When I first got elected to congress, Amy and I wanted our kids, [00:38:30.739] they were let's say, I think at that age, they were, like, six, four, and three. But we wanna make sure they traveled and got used to traveling, etc. And it was with another couple. They had one child. And the husband was a fly fisherman. And he says, oh, you'll love it, etc. And so normally, you don't kinda do your first fly fishing in Patagonia, but that's what we did.
Tom: It's a good place to start.
Rahm: Yeah. You kinda like maybe a stream somewhere.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Rahm: But, one of the things I wanted to do, [00:39:00.929] having got elected to congress and everything is make sure that for, like, two, three weeks a year, I wasn't a congressman, mayor, or chief of staff, ambassador. It was just, you know, to blow the world away and just be... I shouldn't say it like that right now, but block the world out and just be with my kids.
Tom: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Rahm: And, then that trip led to another trip, and then doing stuff in the States with friends in [00:39:30.784] Montana. And I just got, you know, trip after trip, I got really hooked. And it's one of those things. It became addictive. So it started off with one trip, and wanting to make the most of that trip. And it became extreme, you know, been to Argentina twice, Brazil, Chile. Actually, when I was in Japan, I went to New Zealand twice, which is quite the experience doing helicopter fly fishing. But the bulk of it [00:40:00.195] is in out west, in Colorado, Montana, and Wyoming.
Tom: Uh-huh. Okay.
Rahm: That's almost 90% of my fly fishing.
Tom: And how long have you been doing it?
Rahm: So basically, twenty-two years, twenty-three years.
Tom: Oh, yeah. A long time. Long time.
Rahm: Yeah. And I've been ever increasing amounts. My wife ridicules me. She likes to fly fish too. We like doing it together. She says that I put the sport back in fly fishing. Very competitive.
Tom: [00:40:30.474] Oh, okay.
Rahm: Yeah, the serene thing hasn't quite hit me yet.
Tom: No. Well, you and I wouldn't get along well at fly fishing because I'm not very competitive.
Rahm: Actually, I've gotten better at it. That's not fair. That's a moment of self-awareness. I'm working on it.
Tom: So you live in Chicago, right? You still live in Chicago?
Rahm: Yeah.
Tom: Do you ever fish locally? Do you ever, you know, try... have you ever been urban fly fishing?
Rahm: I've not done... [00:41:00.735] I've done... No, I haven't. That's the short answer to your question, Tom. Where should I go for that?
Tom: Well, God. You know, it's amazing, I think, that the people who live in cities think they have to fly to Montana or Colorado to go fly fishing. And some of the most interest... in my opinion, anyways, some of the most interesting fly fishing is close to home where you can, you know, get out after dinner, [00:41:30.474] before work, on a lunch hour, and chase bass or panfish or carp.
Rahm: Well, it's funny you say it. So you don't know this, but as mayor, I'm known for having put the River Walk in in Chicago, working with the Friends of the Chicago River.
We did a big giant, during my tenure, ecological restoration. And I think we're up to... [00:42:00.070] We went from, like, seven to, like, 76 species came back through the aquatic kind of ecological restoration. The Riverwalk is infamous now in Chicago, made even more famous during the convention in the summer where people saw it. And a lot of people just go downtown now and just fish along the river. Let alone some of this fishing that goes on during the summer months, and runs in the lower Lake Michigan.
Tom: Is this the [00:42:30.079] Chicago River? I'm not that familiar with...
Rahm: Yeah. Chicago River.
Tom: So yeah...
Rahm: Not fly fishing, but a lot of... but as you said, carp and other types of fish.
Tom: Well, it could be fly fishing though. That's the thing, you know. That's the thing that people don't realize, that you can fish for all those species with a fly rod. Everything from catfish to, you know, minnows with a fly rod.
Rahm: Well, now you're also tied to... that's on the shore. I gotta tell you one of the things that I love, and we do it, [00:43:00.576] a lot at our place out in Montana, which is just I love wading. Just walking in the water. That's the therapy for me.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Rahm: So, that is all on obviously, if you're doing the Chicago River or even a lake, you're standing on shore. I love walking the water.
Tom: Uh-huh. Yep. Yep. So I can see where that would appeal to you. But I bet there's smaller streams in the Chicago area [00:43:30.848] that you could fish for smallmouth bass, and largemouth and carp and panfish, and wade. It might not be as serene as you find in the Western United States or Chile or Argentina, but, it's...
Rahm: You're probably right, but nothing will keep me away from Montana or Wyoming.
Tom: Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. Did you...
Rahm: I just don't see the Chicago River running. I love Chicago. [00:44:00.230] I love what we've done. I just don't see it in the competition for this than what I'm looking for.
Tom: Okay. I'm an urban fly fishing evangelist, but I can see that you're not gonna be convinced. And maybe it's because I live in the country, and I have a trout stream in my backyard. Literally, I can see it from where I'm talking right now. So it's intriguing to fish in an urban area for me.
Rahm: Yeah, for me, you know, we right off [00:44:30.513] our house, we get to go on to the Madison and the Blaine Spring Creek, and I just love it.
Tom: Oh, boy. That's great. Do you have a house in Montana? Do you have a place in Montana?
Rahm: Yeah. We do.
Tom: On a spring creek?
Rahm: It's a blended it's, for lack of... let's call it 90% Madison and 10% Blaine Spring Creek that feeds into it.
Tom: Oh, I think I've [00:45:00.130] actually seen... is that outside of Venice?
Rahm: I don't want anybody to find the property.
Tom: Okay. All right. Okay. Never mind.
Rahm: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. US history for 200. You're close to us.
Tom: Okay. No. I'm just looking for an invite. That's all.
Rahm: Yeah. Well, you have that. Okay. Yeah. But it's, you know, I even got back and forth twice a year when I was ambassador to Japan.
Tom: Really?
Rahm: Yeah.
Tom: [00:45:30.670] So, Japan, did you fly fish when you were in Japan? Because I know they have some...
Rahm: I did.
Tom: You did? What was it like?
Rahm: Well, I did two things. One is I did two different areas up north in the Hokkaido area.
Tom: Right.
Rahm: Once, call it outside of Tokyo by an hour and a half. I don't actually remember where the exact town. And then twice in [00:46:00.897], I went over to New Zealand. I would say in the Japan part, it is beautiful but very technical. And it's a lot of sight fishing. And the size of the fish, call it, like, 12 to 14 to 10 inches, is not... so it's, you know, when you're doing sight fishing [00:46:30.039] in, New Zealand, but those fish are 28, 29, 27 inches. It's a very technical, very, challenging, but it's all sight. So...
Tom: And was it for their native species, Yamame, I think is one of them?
Rahm: Yeah. Totally native fish. And the beautiful part, I'm trying to remember the national park. It's on the main island, but it's just literally [00:47:00.790] south of Hokkaido, the island up north. And it was in a national park there. But the best thing, if I may say that happened, is there was a gentleman about twenty years ago who for thirty years worked, a Japanese gentleman with almost a third to half year staff. We have one of the largest embassies in the world is in Japan, The United States, but little north of 800. And he worked there [00:47:30.838] for 30 years, Japanese individual. He had read in the paper how I'd gone fly fishing, etc. And one day, call it the last nine months of my tenure of three years, they said, down in the office, some gentleman dropped off a fly rod for you, a special fly rod. Now a lot of you gotta... I'll pause, I'll come right back. Any gift above $20, you have to report. [00:48:00.745] And they said it's a very... I said, well, don't send it to protocol. Whatever you do. Which means that's where you gotta go report, which I did. So I just wanna clarify.
It was an original 1X Kawasaki bamboo handmade.
Tom: Oh, wow.
Rahm: It's this side of antique. It is an orig... It took my breath away. And he gave it as a personal gift. [00:48:30.934] He is chair, no longer works for the embassy, chair of the Japanese Fly Fishing Society. And as an appreciation for my ten years ambassador, that was his personal gift to me.
Tom: Wow.
Rahm: And it even gets weirder. I said, oh, I love it. I said, you know, where I go, in Montana, you know, a 1X, this would be very... and he goes, well, where are you? I said, well, I'm on the Madison. [00:49:00.355] He said, oh, I fished that in the '70s. I said, you did? He goes, yes, yes, yes. And I said, no. He said, late '70s or early '80s. Pause. Our ambassador to Japan at that time, appointed by both Jimmy Carter and then reappointed by Ronald Reagan, was the late senator Mike Mansfield. And he had gone fly fishing on the Madison River, the town that shall not be mentioned on this phone call. And he knew and he [00:49:30.014] knew exactly the water.
Tom: No kidding. Wow.
Rahm: Yeah. And then he told me what reel to use for. It's just... but it's a beautiful bamboo rod, Kawasaki, originally handmade.
Tom: So Kawasaki, the same one that makes guitars?
Rahm: Yes. They don't make it anymore, but that was... Yeah. They got out of the fly pit, but it's an original, and it's, like, handmade. It's bamboo. It's a 1X. I mean, [00:50:00.025] it's just I'm now I have it almost I mounted on the wall. The whole thing is just a piece of like, everything that Japanese do, it's so well engineered. It goes on the other side too, it's not just a well-engineered. It's beautiful.
Tom: Yeah. I can imagine. I can imagine. I never even heard of those before.
Rahm: Going back to your original question, I went, I think it was [00:50:30.155] April '23, I went to New Zealand on the North Island, and then I went back January '25. It was my last three weeks there, and I decided to take a four-day trip, and I had also back to the Northern Island. A lot of people go to South Island. And one of the great things there in New Zealand is you helicopter into a gorge, and you go all day walking the area with a guide, You helo over the mountains. It's [00:51:00.250] a once-in-a-lifetime experience.
Tom: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Rahm: Or if you're the U.S. Ambassador to Japan, twice in a lifetime experience.
Tom: Well, you're a little closer. So the airfare is cheaper. Right?
Rahm: What's that?
Tom: You're a little closer, so the airfare is cheaper.
Rahm: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But I had, again, I wanna say having done other parts of the... I love out West America. I think it's just there's nothing that replaces Montana, [00:51:30.159] Wyoming, Colorado. I've done also Michigan fly fishing.
Tom: Yeah. You're right. You're right. We have an incredible resource and incredible amount of public land in which to do it.
Rahm: Yeah. I mean, I've done with, you know, obviously, in Japan, New Zealand, and stuff, but I think nothing rivals, at least in my experience, the American West in fly fishing. And, I have obviously drifted a lot on, [00:52:00.190] the Missouri and other things. But to me, walking, you know, the Big Hole, the Ruby, the Beaverhead, the Jefferson, or a spring creek like Odell, that's just can take your breath away. How beautiful, how great it is.
Tom: Yep. And the diversity of the fishing we have in this country.
Rahm: I mean, if you're walking and and then casting over to the banks and watching that fish come from underneath the bank, [00:52:30.469] there's just... and then having it and it runs and having it perfectly cast off to the bank where you hit it just that two inches off, three inches off, and it just comes sliding down and see that fish come alive and go forward from underneath the bank or behind a rock as it passes. It's really sublime.
Tom: It's almost as exciting as having a carp come out from under a shopping cart [00:53:00.796] to take and fly. Almost.
Rahm: Almost.
Tom: Yeah.
Rahm: Yeah. Nothing beats a carp. Well, now we in Chicago, as a congressman that created, you know, the Great Lakes Restoration Act, we spend a lot of our time making sure that the Asian carp never get there. Okay? So when you say carp, carp to a midwestern kid can be fighting words.
Tom: Right. And that's a different carp. You know, we're talking about common carp, which have been around as long [00:53:30.253] as brown trout have been in this country. So, yeah, it's different fish.
Rahm: You say carp, I almost have a Pavlovian experience with that.
Tom: Yeah. I imagine. I imagine because I know that they're struggling to keep those out of the Great Lakes.
Rahm: Electric fences. You know, all kinds of different things. Correct.
Tom: So, ambassador, you have a busy life. You've had a busy life. You know, and I get this question [00:54:00.460] from podcast listeners. I just can't find the time in my busy life. You know, I've got family. I've got a job that's demanding. I can't find the time to fly fish. What do you say to someone like that?
Rahm: Well, look. I mean, everybody's life is their life. When I was the president's chief of staff, mayor, ambassador, all three of those jobs, I made time. It's, like, kinda first [00:54:30.019] of all, I think you really... I think I could, not that other people's jobs are not stressful. I mean, being the president's chief of staff or being the mayor of a big city like Chicago, I found it the... I mean it sincerely. It was the place, you know, kind of it brought back kind of not a serenity, but also mental health. Not that I wasn't... some people can think I'm not mentally stable going doing these jobs. [00:55:00.427] That's another subject for another time and another analysis. But I found the time because I wanted the time. And there's a funny joke. Not a joke, but there was an experience. We were dealing with something, and I had the secret services, look the president needs to talk to you, so I had to get off the river. I went into some cabin, and we were talking. I said, look. I said, we can handle this. I said, why don't we do this? [00:55:30.585] I'll call you tonight, your time, 9:00. I knew then that Michelle and kids would go to sleep. He would be alone. He goes, oh, well, that's okay, but I got you here. I said, I know. But as you know, I'm fishing, and I love you, but I'm going back to the fishing, and I can handle it tonight. I'll be off the river.
And he reached, you know, I left him alone on the golf course. He left me alone on the river. That was our kinda... and, you know, [00:56:00.054] I will say I don't golf. Never have, never will. My brother does. But it's that same you're in the water. The water's rushing on you. You're walking upstream. You gotta focus like a laser, perfectly cast it behind that rock, have it come swinging around that rock. Hopefully, in the softer water, the fish will pop its head out and snap at it. And you gotta, you know, not pull too hard, not to pull too light. You gotta fight it, [00:56:30.426] but don't fight it too hard that it snaps. Don't fight it too loose that it shakes out. And I've never called, but when you think about the concentration on task-specific and the precision you need, everything else in your world gets blocked out. You're in that moment. You can't be thinking about, you know, the president just called and what he called about, etc., or what's happening in the city, etc. You're in that moment with that water and the fish is heading downstream. [00:57:00.910] You got it hooked it. It's heading downstream. You gotta walk on, you know, soft rocks that are slippery, etc. You have this thing alive on your hand and it's shaking. I just find that the most exciting. It's freedom because you're in the water. I love being in the water. The office is away. I can't tell you how liberating that is for me.
Tom: Well, it sounds like it was...
Rahm: How do you find the time? I can't imagine going six months [00:57:30.514] not doing it.
Tom: Yeah. Well, it sounds like it was essential for you. Right? For your...
Rahm: No. It's very... yes, it's very and then, you know, at night, you know, at night, you, obviously, with friends are telling stories about the fish that day, the fishing that day. So, I'll tell you a funny story. I'm gonna get in trouble, but hopefully nobody will get me in trouble on this.
Tom: [00:58:00.114] Okay.
Rahm: We're floating down the Missouri. There's a group of us that would always go opening day in the Missouri back in early May, and about five, six, guys. And it's Paul Legala who's, you know, very political. We started our careers together for working for President Clinton. And he's in the front of the boat... I'm in the front, rather. He's in the back. And I am literally on fire. I must have [00:58:30.014] hit, like, 12 fish in a row to Paul's zero. So I got a fish on the line, and I'm working it. And Paul's in the back, hasn't had anything for, let's call it, 45 minutes to an hour, and I was, like, I've caught, like, a dozen. And I've got one on it. I said, hey, Paul. He goes, yeah. I said, hey. Just tell me one thing. Does my ass looks fat in the waters because all he's doing is watching me fish.
So he frames this picture of me [00:59:00.255] with the fish, and he on the wood he has burnt in, your ass does look fat. But there's nothing like the camaraderie that you get from these experiences. You know, stories after, you know, when you're together. I just love it. So I can go on and on about those experiences. And I had it with just up in where my wife and I one day with Joe D. at the end of his fly shop rather. [00:59:30.423] It's about a mile we walked up fishing north of our house. It was April, and we found this one area. It's right kinda where the Blaine and the Madison come together. And for, like, an hour, they were feeding, and biting. And Amy and I must have caught, I'm doing this by memory, like, in that hour, like, collectively 19 fish, and they were averaging 16 [01:00:00.789] to 21 inches.
And we've renamed that area. And I don't wanna tell you, we call it God's Country because we were just...it was like our first season in April on that part of the stretch of the Madison. And, we just had a phenomenal time with Joe, who's a great guide and has a great shop at Madison Valley [01:00:30.429] Shopping, which always been called right there, we call it we're gonna go up to God's Country.
Tom: Now you're starting a hot spot there. People are gonna figure out where you're fishing.
Rahm: Yeah. Yeah. Well, don't worry. I'll be yelling at them when I get walked out.
Tom: I think it's public water.
Rahm: I know it is. Yeah. Whatever you do, don't go to the restroom on the rock ground. No. It's exactly. But we love it.
Tom: [01:01:00.583] So where do you want to go that you haven't been? Been to New Zealand, you've been to Chile, Argentina, American West, Japan.
Rahm: I would like to do... I've been to Wyoming three or four times separately, but I would love, to actually spend a little more time there. That's one.
Two, I never got there, and it would actually have been a shorter trip, [01:01:30.674] but people say Mongolia is supposed to be pretty cool. I've never done it. I wouldn't mind going out west in Canada Banff area. That's supposed to be great fishing. I did one trip to Alaska, and I'm desperate to go back. I did it on the Copper River, loved it. I have a beautiful picture. The guide caught this picture when I'm standing in the water, and the fish is totally [01:02:02.550] vertical. Just busting out of the water. The water is dripping off the fish. You couldn't have framed it... you couldn't kinda... I don't know how he caught it, but it's a beautiful shot. But I'd love to go back up and experience part of Alaska and the Western part of Canada. That's why I probably would say, in addition to kinda really exploring Wyoming, which I have not done. Those are the three places I would put. And if I had [01:02:30.079] to say, no, you gotta pick something overseas, I would say, Mongolia.
Tom: Well, that's interesting that, you know, you mentioned Wyoming.
Rahm: Did I miss something?
Tom: No. You mentioned Wyoming first. You know, you obviously have the means to go and fish wherever in the world you wanna go, and you make the time and you prioritize it, but you're talking about public water in the American West. That's great to hear.
Rahm: You know, I've done... my good friend, [01:03:00.736] Skip, who really turned me on to it, we did the Green River together, the plat rather. And then we did, one day we... so a woman older lady had a farm here. She rented out. I think it was, like, two routes a day that could go. He and I did an area there, but I've never really, really spent the time, and other people have talked about, it with me. And probably add Oregon on the western [01:03:30.099] part of that. Then now that.. so Wyoming, Oregon, Canada, and Alaska deeper than the one time I've been there, which I had a great trip.
Tom: Now this is all salmonids. Have you done any saltwater fishing as well? Saltwater fly fishing?
Rahm: You know, friends tried to get me to do it. I've done it once, and I just either I'm too competitive and I wasn't good... I was not bad at it, [01:04:00.579] but I wasn't great at it. And I don't... I gotta be honest. It just doesn't rock my boat the way America's rivers do.
Tom: Interesting.
Rahm: Because the group of buddies that we all swap photos and tease each other on text, etc., they all, like, you gotta go west, you gotta go down in, you know, Bahamas, [01:04:30.099] etc., Belize, etc. I tried it. If I have a free, long week, I wanna go to Wyoming and try that.
Tom: Okay. Fair enough. It's another addiction. It is different. Definitely. It's...
Rahm: Based on the way these five or six guys talk, that it's addictive, if not, as, [01:05:00.019] obviously, dry flies.
Tom: Yeah. It's a different world. It's a different world that you have to be a little quicker, and I think the times without fish can be longer when conditions are right. It's a big ocean out there and, you know, it can be... but...
Rahm: Can you answer a question?
Tom: Of course. This is the podcast.
Rahm: Okay. I've done this for 22 years, [01:05:30.070] Tom. I wanna know who comes up with these names of the fly. Is there a committee that meets... I wanna get on the committee, email and mention. Yeah, I gotta talk to these guys or girls or I don't know who does it. Like, who comes up with Parachute Adams, Chubby, Elk Hair Caddis, Fat Albert Prince, Hair's Ear Nymph, Sal Sobug, Madame X. I'm even cleaning this up. There's Working Girl, Zoo Cougar [01:06:00.594], Stacked Blonde, Zoo Kitty. I mean, who does this? I feel like I'm on the couch with Chi Ching Chong or something like that. Who does this?
Tom: Well, it is a committee. And I'll...
Rahm: Is there a committee?
Tom: I'll put your name...
Rahm: Can I be nominated?
Tom: Yeah. I'll put your name on the list for the fly naming committee. It's a secret group of people.
Rahm: Secret committee?
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. They meet in a dark room in Bozeman, Montana once a year.
Rahm: But this is I like... some of the times when I first get exposed [01:06:30.235] to it, I said, like, who literally jack a booger, sea lion fly, magnum mage, sex on a hoof? Who develops these?
Tom: No. To answer your question in a serious manner, it's usually whoever develops the fly, gives it a name.
Rahm: Really?
Tom: Yeah. So, you know, there's fly tie thousands...
Rahm: You develop the fly, you get the right [01:07:00.770] to name it.
Tom: You get to name it. Yeah. You get to name it. And if you...
Rahm: That's also one of my favorite. You're with a guide walking, and some guy's floating down. He says, how's it going? And they feel good. What are you catching? And then get all of a sudden, yeah, fat Albert or whatever these names are. And I'm like, who comes up with this?
Tom: No. Whoever comes up with the fly.
Rahm: No, I love the kinda more family-focused, like the blue-winged olives, the caddis, the Mark Brown's, [01:07:30.244] you know, Mother's Day caddis. You know? The chubby dry flies, etc.. Those are more kinda serene, but some of these other ones, I mean, I'm like, you know, egg drop stones and Walter Walker's cat puke.
Tom: Now, some of them...
Rahm: I wanna be nominated... you your job having... I'm doing the podcast, and I love you, and thanks for having me. I wanna on the committee. They don't have to introduce themselves, [01:08:00.519] but I wanna know who... I wanna be on the secret committee for the naming of the flies.
Tom: Well, do you tie flies?
Rahm: Do I tie my... I don't make my flies, but I do tie my flies.
Tom: You tie flies. Okay. You don't make them though but you tie them on your tippet.
Rahm: No.
Tom: Okay. Well, I...
Rahm: Tie them on. And one of the things I try to do with the guide is don't tie them. I wanna tie them. It's the only way I'm gonna get really good at this.
Tom: Well, I think you need to get yourself a fly-tying [01:08:30.630] kit and watch some YouTube videos and tie your own because that'll add another dimension to your experience. I don't think there's anything better...
Rahm: Is that the only way I get into the committee?
Tom: That's the only way. Yeah. It's the only way. So you need to carve out a little more time. I recommend when the kids are in bed and your wife is reading or watching television, you go up and...
Rahm: Ignoring you.
Tom: Yep. You go up and you crank some flies out, [01:09:00.636] and you give them whatever name you want.
Rahm: Yeah. Well, let me say this.
Tom: That's the only way you get on the committee.
Rahm: Yeah. That's the only way to get in?
Tom: Yeah. The only way to get in.
Rahm: I think I'll stay out and look through the window and bang on it. I want in. But... Okay...
Tom: No, just tying clinch knots to knot your fly on is not gonna get you on the committee. I'm sorry.
Rahm: Dang. It's kinda tough crowd here.
Tom: Yeah. It is. It's a tough crowd.
Rahm: Yeah. [01:09:30.449] That is the one thing I also love, is if I have to give myself the one thing I am good at in fly fishing or is being able to read the water when you're walking it.
Tom: Yeah.
Rahm: That's one of the cooler parts, of, I think, fishing. Being able to, I don't know if I would say think like a fish, but if I was [01:10:00.020] where would I be?
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Rahm: Yeah.
Tom: No. It's a real skill, and it does take some time. You know, it takes some practice and remembering where you caught each fish and, you know, sitting back and thinking, okay. Why was that fish there? Why was that fish in that exact spot?
Rahm: Yeah. Beyond just that's a whole off the banks is one of the great and be able to. There's nothing like you're with a guide [01:10:30.020] and he or she say, over there, you hit it three, four inches off the bank perfect. It drops down off the grass easy on its own. It's drifting down, and it snaps at it. Comes from underneath.
Tom: It's all about to eat. It's all about to eat.
Rahm: Yes. Better that... Now, let me ask you a question. Don't you find that more rewarding than if they're biting your casting then into the...
Tom: [01:11:00.182] Don't... I'm sorry. Don't I find it better what?
Rahm: If you're casting and you kinda hit where you think they're gonna be versus if you're seeing them biting rising.
Tom: Yeah.
Rahm: I like that a lot more because you've kinda figured them out. If they're rising, you know where they are. If they're not rising, but you still get them and you get a good-sized fish and you've cast perfectly in the first cast over behind the rock or, off the bank [01:11:30.611] or where the tree hangs over, etc.. To me, that's the exciting part.
Tom: Yeah. And I think that the visual aspect of all that is what turns me on, and that's why I like certain kinds of saltwater fishing where it's sight fishing and certain kinds I don't because it's kinda blind fishing over a channel or deep water or whatever. So, yeah, I think that's fair. And I think most of us would prefer [01:12:00.784] to, you know, fish to a a rising fish. The problem is that doesn't happen that often. Right?
Rahm: Mm-hmm.
Tom: It's more dessert than it is the main meal.
Rahm: Well, near our place, is about just shy of 25 or so holes and kinda know them and just love going over there.
Tom: Yep. Looking for them, seeing if they're home.
Rahm: And [01:12:30.185] then try and get for flies. What's gonna get them up.
Tom: Yeah. No. It's a real puzzle, and solving problems is what we're hardwired to do. Right?
Rahm: Mm-hmm.
Tom: And it's a puzzle with so many variables. That's a thing.
Rahm: What's that?
Tom: It's a puzzle with so many variables.
Rahm: Yes.
Tom: Weather and water temperature and bugs, and individual fish's personality. [01:13:00.545] Yeah. It's why we do it, I guess.
Rahm: Yeah. Absolutely. And then you come up... that's why you come up with these weird names, man.
Tom: Well, I got...
Rahm: Like cute water walkers, egg drop.
Tom: I have a little story to tell you that I heard this year when I was down in Chile. One of the most popular flies in Chile is the Fat Albert.
Rahm: Yeah.
Tom: And [01:13:30.925] there was a guy down there that had a client, and the guide kept talking about Fat Alberts. And at the end of the day, he didn't realize that his client's name was Albert, and the guy really took offense because he thought they were calling him fat all day long. So...
Rahm: How did you get into fly fishing?
Tom: You know, I got into it when I was a kid, and I liked to fish with my [01:14:00.104] dad, and he was a worm fisherman, bait fisherman. And I just really liked fishing, and I thought fly fishing looked cool and looked interesting and maybe a little bit more of a challenge. So I just kinda taught myself.
Rahm: I should actually in this give a shout out to the Chicago Fly Shop. It's a great fly shop in the city. And they do a great job there. [01:14:30.034] Then they have not only great stuff that's there, but they do great, you know, suggestions for trips in different places. They also, the owner, tried to get me into saltwater fishing. So just you're not the only person trying to convince me.
Tom: Well, I'm trying to convince you to urban fly fish too, but I'm not having any luck there.
Rahm: I know you're supposed to be asking the questions, [01:15:00.053] it wouldn't be beyond me. Do you prefer spring, summer, or fall fishing?
Tom: Yes.
Rahm: And I know it's... Yes. Yeah. That's right. All the above.
Tom: Yeah. Whenever I can get out, which is often, and people should not be feeling sorry for me.
Rahm: I'm kinda biased spring and fall, just for the record.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Although, you know, you just have to kinda change your approach, and summer [01:15:30.738] can be hot and the water can be low, but then you're gonna maybe change where you go and what you chase, and you know? Winter, I would say winter is probably my least favorite, but that's, as I get older, I, can tolerate the cold a lot less than I used to be able to. So...
Rahm: That I will say there's a, I know I'm not supposed to say a competitor on this podcast.
Tom: You're right. You're not. [01:16:00.994] But you're gonna anyways, aren't you?
Rahm: I'm gonna be careful. It's a Japanese, went down in Osaka. They started making... originally started just making bike parts.
Tom: Uh-huh.
Rahm: And, I went and toured the factory, and beautiful. I used the rod in New Zealand. That's all I'll say. So that's my one shout out.
Tom: All right, that's good enough. That's good enough.
Rahm: [01:16:30.039] Yeah. So, the other thing is, do you use velvet? What kind of, bottoms do you like on your shoes?
Tom: Oh, you know, felt, if the rocks are slippery, but, I'm gonna put a plug in here. I've been wearing a pair of new Orvis ultralight wading boots that have a new rubber...
Rahm: New Orvis [01:17:00.288] what?
Tom: Ultra-light wading boots. They have a new rubber compound from Michelin and a new tread pattern. And I think for the first time in my life, they are almost as good as felt. And I typically...
Rahm: I love felt. So give me the name of it again?
Tom: It's the Orvis Ultra-light...
Rahm: We're gonna plug Orvis here.
Tom: Yeah. Here we go. It's my podcast. I can do that. It's the Orvis Ultra-light wading shoe, and I've fully intended [01:17:30.369] to put metal studs in those because I always do with rubber soles. Because I do a lot of walking on trails and, you know, hiking to places, and felt it's not so good walking on land. And I haven't studied these yet. I haven't slipped with them, so I'm really, really excited about them.
Rahm: Oh, that's cool. This year, I'm gonna go with a friend, old guy that's been around [01:18:00.703] fishing in Craig Matthews, and we're gonna go, there's a particular part of the river he knows where there's a lot of cutthroat. A ton. And, I don't even know where it is, and we're gonna go check it out. That's what I'm excited about this year because not that I don't love browns or rainbows, but I've caught a couple hybrids, you know, rainbows with a cutthroat, etc. There's an area just he says [01:18:30.204] that all that's there is cutthroat.
Tom: And that's the native fish in that part of the world. That's the only native trout in Montana.
Rahm: Yeah, exactly. I'm very excited about this year.
Tom: Well, Craig's a great guy. He's an old friend. And...
Rahm: Love him.
Tom: You're lucky to be able to fish with him.
Rahm: Yeah.
Tom: Well, ambassador, this has been really fun, and you're a great storyteller. And I appreciate your enthusiasm for fly fishing. And your...
Rahm: Well, first of all, it's Rahm [01:19:00.399]. And second of all, as Amy and I love listening to you, so thank you for always enriching our lives.
Tom: Oh, it's my pleasure.
Rahm: And then can I use you as a reference to get into the fly-naming committee?
Tom: Yes. Yes, you can, but you're gonna have to learn how to tie flies first. I'm sorry.
Rahm: All right, just give me... don't worry then I won't be calling on your reference.
Tom: You can use me for a reference for something else, you know, but...
Rahm: All right, man. You're a good soul. Thanks for doing this.
Tom: [01:19:30.901] All right. Thank you, Rahm. It's been a real pleasure talking to you.
Man: Thanks for listening to the Orvis Fly Fishing podcast with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at