How Do I Get My Fly-Fishing Writing Published? With Ross Purnell, Editor of Fly Fisherman Magazine
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And my guest this week is my old friend, Ross Purnell. Ross has been in the fly fishing industry for a long, long time. He's currently editor and publisher of "Fly Fisherman" magazine. And you know, I've done some podcasts [00:00:30.239] about writing and tips on how to write about fly fishing and to make your stories better and more interesting. But then there's another piece of the puzzle. Do you wanna get this published? And if you do, how can you go about breaking into the world of writing for fly fishing magazines, or blogs, or even writing your own book? So, Ross is my guest today, and he's gonna tell us all about [00:01:00.710] the world of publishing and what he looks for in a piece for his magazine, which I'm sure are similar needs to many, many other fly fishing magazines and publishers. So hope you enjoy that.
And before we get into the fly box, I just wanna tell you about some cool places to fish this year. Orvis, endorses and vets and inspects various guides and outfitters and [00:01:30.040] expeditions throughout the world. And every week, I tell you about three of them, in case you haven't haven't read about them on the website. By the way, if you do wanna see all the Orvis-endorsed operations, if you go to orvis.com/adventures, there'll be an interactive map there that you can pull up and you can see, all over the country and all over the world, where there are Orvis-endorsed operations, places that we've vetted, [00:02:00.189] that we've been to and fished with and inspected, and we continue to inspect, so you know you're gonna have a good experience.
Anyway, first one is a guide, Josh Pfeiffer. And Josh is in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park area, but he also fishes really between Knoxville and Great Smoky Mountain National Park and concentrates on drift boat trips, but also [00:02:30.789] wade trips for small stream trout in the Smokies, which is something that I did recently and really enjoyed. Beautiful part of the world, incredibly diverse ecosystem. And although the Great Smoky Mountain National Park is the most visited national park, I believe, in North America, you don't see that many anglers on the small streams there. So it's pretty cool. I think we saw, like, two other anglers in three days of fishing, [00:03:00.139] in April. And so if you want a float trip, Josh floats the Holston, the French Broad, the Clinch, the Little River, the Pigeon River, and Caney Fork, from a drift boat, both trout and smallmouth bass. So, great part of the world, interesting country, and great fishing, some of the best fishing in the country.
Our expedition this week is Boulder Basin [00:03:30.360] Outfitters in Wyoming. And they're a third-generation outfitter with 30-plus years of of personal experience in the Cody area of Wyoming. Cody's a really cool area. It's one of the least visited entrances to Yellowstone National Park, but there's so much fishing in the national forest, Shoshone National Forest around there. It's one of my favorite places [00:04:00.090] in the West, and they specialize in pack-in wilderness adventures with horses and mules. And this is a true wilderness experience where you're unlikely to see any other people on the rivers, lakes, and streams that they get to with these horseback trips. It's spectacular scenery, obviously, with wild native cutthroat. So a great expedition for you to try if you're looking for a real wilderness [00:04:30.000] experience in the lower 48.
Now, if you're not interested in roughing it on a horseback trip...it's not exactly roughing it, but it's wilderness experience. But if you're interested in some more creature comforts, the C Lazy U Ranch in Colorado in the Granby, Colorado area is a place you wanna go. This would be a great place to take your family, particularly if you have non-anglers [00:05:00.449] in your family. They've been famous for providing a luxury ranch vacation since 1919. So been around a long time. You can have an individual room or full private cabins. And they have excellent meals, obviously, it's Orvis-endorsed. They have a spa, horseback riding, swimming pool, hot tub, trap shooting, mountain biking, tennis and pickleball, a fitness center, game room, and a yoga [00:05:30.189] center for the non-anglers. But for the anglers, they have some great fishing there. Private sections on the Fraser River and the Colorado River, and they have a private stretch of Willow Creek going right through the property. So this is a place where you can catch rainbow, brown, and brook trout. And you can go there with virtually nothing. They provide Orvis rods, reels, waders and boots, and flies. Families with non-anglers [00:06:00.240] would have a great time at the C Lazy U Ranch in Colorado.
Now, if you wanna fish with me, I've got a few hosted trips coming up. Love to see podcast listeners on my hosted trips, and I have had numerous people that heard about my trips on the podcast. So, I got one coming up in Iceland, July 15th through 20th, with Fish Partner. And this is fishing for Atlantic salmon, sea-run browns, [00:06:30.154] native browns, char, and sea-run char. We don't know if we'll catch all of those, but we're all hoping to catch the Super Slam in Iceland, catching all four of those different varieties of salmonids. By the way, these are all on the Orvis website if you wanna wanna look them up and get more information.
And then, I'm also gonna be going to Spain, in the Pyrenees, which is [00:07:00.805] a true...sort of a luxury. You stay in an old medieval village. The food and the wine are supposed to be absolutely spectacular. This is not a trip I've been on before, so I'll be as excited as you are to go on this trip. And that's September 28th to October 4th. And then I've got some some upcoming trips in South America in 2026 during the winter of 2026, which [00:07:30.004] I'll tell you about later.
All right. Let's do the Fly Box. The Fly Box is where you ask me questions or you pass along a tip and I share it with listeners or I try to answer your questions. And you can send your questions to
So, Gabriel, that's fine keeping your leaders in small Ziplock bags. You know, a leader wall is a little bit better because it's a little bit stiffer and it keeps the leaders from getting balled up and lost in your pocket and things like that. But Ziplock bags work fine. But I've got a tip for you, for your leaders, so that you will almost never get them tangled. There's lots of videos [00:09:00.315] on this on the internet. I know I've done one or two myself, but I could tell you how to do it. So when you are gonna put a leader away, what you do is you start with the tippet end and you wrap it around your four fingers. You know, leave your thumb out and just wrap the leader around your four fingers starting with the tippet. And then when you get to the thick end, you might have a perfection loop on there and you might not, just take that [00:09:30.210] and wrap it around those coils. This is the stiffer part, wrap it around those coils, three, four to five times. I like to go four. But you wanna pay attention to how many turns you go around that leader.
So now, when you're ready to use that leader, you take it out of the package and you take the loop or the heavy end and you unravel those four turns only that you took around the rest of the leader. [00:10:00.440] And then, this is the trick, you put it back on the four fingers of one hand, and you just pull it. And it should come off in nice, loose, even coils, and this will hardly ever tangle. So if it's difficult for you to visualize this, Gabriel, on the podcast, there are a number of videos that show you how to do this on the web. [00:10:30.269]
Here's an email from Mark from the Seattle area. "I was listening to one of your podcasts that asked what things you had in your pack, and your tip for using an elastic paint strainer as a seine was pure gold. The cost is $5 for two versus buying some other high-priced product. My question to you is that when you approach a piece of water that you think has fish and fish it through, but, unfortunately, with no luck, how quickly do you then change flies and re-fish the piece of water [00:11:00.379] and then even change techniques such as going from nymphing to swinging in a merger or even using a streamer? I guess, how much time do you spend on that piece of water versus moving on realizing that it is called fishing and not catching?"
Well, Mark, that's kinda the essence of live fishing and you're gonna have to figure that out yourself. You know, and you may get it wrong, and I know I get it wrong all the time. But [00:11:30.240] whether you go or whether you stay is gonna be up to you. I can give you a couple tips maybe to get started. One is if it's a small, shallow stream, you know, 20 feet wide or around that size and the water is pretty shallow and you fish through a spot, I think you're done. You've spoiled that water. You've thrown your fly line over most of the fish and you've either scared them or caught them. When you're on a bigger river where the fish [00:12:00.080] have the security of deep water, you know, a big pool, big, wide pool, or a riffle where the fish aren't gonna be quite as spooky, I think you can fish that for a longer period of time. But just know that every time you make a cast over that pool, you risk scaring those trout.
So you have to...you know, if it's fast, heavy water, yeah, you're probably not gonna scare them by throwing the fly line on top of them. If it's flat water, [00:12:30.495] I wouldn't spend much time there because you've probably scared all the trout. So, you know, if you think you've really covered the water and you put your fly line over the whole area of water, unless it's really fast or really deep, I'd move on. On the other hand, if you know there's fish there or you really suspect there's fish there and you think you've been careful and you haven't waded all around in the pool, then it might be worth staying there and trying a different technique. [00:13:00.019] And what technique you choose is gonna be based on lots and lots of things that I can't go into here because it's very situational. So, that's the only tip I can really offer you. Otherwise, you're on your own, and that's the fun and the fascination in fly fishing.
Here's one from Marshall. "I was listening to last week's podcast and heard the question about fly fishing for yellow perch. I wanted to offer a tip based on my experience targeting them. My best perch fly is [00:13:30.034] a beadhead white woolly bugger, fits with a long tippet behind a floating line. I strip it quickly and erratically trying to keep the fly within a foot of the surface. I tend to fish for perch in shallow weedy water from a kayak, and this has been my most successful approach, as well as the most fun because of the aggressive strikes it generates.
On the subject of urban and/or close to home fishing opportunities, I wanted to chime in on the value of going minimal. I've acquired [00:14:00.274] enough gear over the years to outfit a college football team, but the kit that lives in a small tub in the back of my car gets 10 times the time on the water of all the rest combined. It consists of a pair of calf height muck boots, a 9-foot 5-weight rod with floating line, a single fly wallet with a variety of common drys, nymphs, and small streamers, a fanny pack with nippers, floatant, a couple of spools of tippet, copy of my fishing license, and bug spray. I found this is all I need to enjoy an hour on my way [00:14:30.105] home from work here in Central New York on our local ponds and creeks spring through fall. The only thing I'm thinking of adding is a small folding net. Having limited time and limited gear, it keeps my focus on the fishing and off swapping flies, rods, spots, etc. I alternate between bass, trout, and occasionally bring home a few panfish for dinner. Thank you for your great work on educating and communicating all the wonderful opportunities that can be found close to home as well as the spotlight [00:15:00.014] you shine on conservation of our phenomenal natural environment."
Well, thank you, Marshall. Thank you for that tip on yellow perch. I love fishing for yellow perch, and I'm gonna tie up some white woolly buggers, which I don't currently have in my fly box, but I will by the time I go up to Lake Champlain the next time.
Here's an email from Chad from Malmo, Sweden. "What is your opinion using balsa wood and fly tying? My brother-in-law showed me some amazing wasp and beetle patterns he had [00:15:30.054] done, and it seems really interesting. But at the same time, I haven't seen it used in many other places than Sweden. What are the pros and cons of balsa wood as a fly tying material from your perspective?"
Well, Chad, you know, I have seen some pretty cool beetles and even caddis flies made with balsa wood bodies. And there was a craze for a while. I think it was back in maybe the 1980s when there were little [00:16:00.384] cork beetles that were super popular, especially in Pennsylvania. And there was a thing called the McMurray Ant, which was two pieces of balsa wood with a little piece of monofilament stuck in between. And they were quite effective. They worked really well, and they've kinda fallen out of fashion. But, you know, it's more like making a bass popper where you slit the balsa wood, and you glue it on a hook, and then you paint it. But those [00:16:30.299] those flies do work fairly well, and I honestly don't know why more people don't use balsa wood flies. The obvious advantage is they're gonna float all day long without adding any floatant. And the fish do like them, and they splat like a beetle on the water. So I'd urge you to try them out.
Chad: Hey, Tom. This is Chad in Michigan. A couple of fly tying questions for you. The other day, I was tying some size 16 parachute Adams, and one of them I just completely messed up the [00:17:00.149] proportions on and it just looked like a 14. You know? It was on a size 16 hook, but everything else, when I threw it in my fly box afterwards, I kinda sort by sight, and it just looked like a 14. Any real issues with that? Is it gonna float wrong? I'm gonna fish it, obviously. But, you know, is it just not gonna orient right in the water? Just no big deal? I guess the question is, how true to proportions do you need to be and how [00:17:30.140] critical is it?
Another question is, what is your minimum amount of flies you'll tie? So I started a session the other night, and I was gonna tie some pheasant tails and somehow messed up the pheasant tail, and my first one really looked like more along the lines of a bastardized Zug Bug. Fishy, you know, I'll probably use it for bluegill or something, but not a bad looking fly. And I guess the question is, would you just have tied the one? [00:18:00.529] Would you have tied two or three more just in case that one works well, hits right? You know, I guess so. Kinda the thing is a little bit maybe along the lines of experimenting. You know? Is it always one? Do you always tie three or four just in case?
And then my last question is tying some zebra midges size 18s, how do you manage those beads? I mean, what's the best way to do that? You know, do you [00:18:30.210] use forceps, hackle pliers, or how do you kinda manage those? I'm having a hard time kinda fumbling around with those, getting them on the hook, and then getting them into the vise. So any tips on that would be appreciated. Again, thanks for all you do. Appreciate it. Bye.
Tom: So, Chad, you know what I'm gonna say. Give it a try and see. I don't see why that won't work pretty well. You know, we have standard proportions in fly tying, but you certainly can think [00:19:00.410] outside the box, to use a cliche, and try using some with bigger wings, bigger hackle on a smaller hook. The fly's gonna float better because, you know, it's got less hook weight in it, and it's gonna be a little more subtle because the hook isn't gonna be quite as visible. So I would give it a try. I don't think there will be any problem. Maybe, if you have a ton of hackle on there and a really small hook, you might have problems hooking fish, but [00:19:30.089] I don't think so. So I would just use it and try it.
Regarding how many of a type do I tie, if I'm gonna tie, I usually tie at least three of a new pattern. You know, something that...like you, like, I screwed up and I tied it wrong, and I thought, I better tie three of those because I'm gonna lose one in a tree, I'm gonna lose one in a fish, and then I'm gonna [00:20:00.069] sell one to my fishing buddy for 5 bucks, or catch a nice fish. So I like to do three. If it's a fly that I know is gonna work that I've used before, you know, six to eight or even a dozen if it's something like parachute Adams, I'm gonna crank out a dozen at a time because I know I'm gonna use them and I know they're gonna work. So that's my philosophy.
And regarding tying zebra midges and getting those small beads on [00:20:30.079] a little tiny hook, I don't have any really clever way of doing it. I'm sure Tim Flagler does, but I don't. I just take the bead and I roll it around in my fingers until the narrower hole is is facing me, and then I take the hook and I try to poke it in there. But, you know, the most time-consuming part of tying a zebra midge is actually getting that bead on the hook. So, it's part of the process, I think. [00:21:01.305] Hairline does sell a bead threader device that works fairly well. It's a piece of wire and you string the beads on there, and then you can kinda kinda poke the...it's hard to describe. But if you look online and find bead threader, hairline bead threader, you might wanna try that. I use it sometimes, but often I'm just lazy and I just roll the bead around in my fingers until I can poke it through [00:21:30.134] the hole.
All right. Back to emails. Here's one from Alex. "Thanks for the podcast. Love listening
at work and during the winter when I mostly dream about fishing. I've been fly fishing for a couple years now, and I'm mostly self-taught because I mostly fish alone and don't really have fishermen in my entourage. When I am dry fly fishing, my casting is pretty good and I can mostly put the fly where I want it. But when I try mixing things up and try a dry dropper setup or [00:22:00.234] sometimes a streamer rig or even when using a sinking line, I'm having trouble casting. Either the line just falls in a bunch in front of me or the fly hits my rod and I lose my momentum. Any tips or tricks to help me become a better caster?"
Well, Alex, there's no doubt that throwing a dry fly is the nicest and easiest way to cast. You got one little relatively non-air-resistant thing on the end. Your [00:22:30.214] loops are easy to form and the leader straightens well. When you go to a dry dropper or when you go to a streamer rig, it's just plain gonna be more difficult. Generally, opening your casting loop a little bit, by making your stroke a little bit longer will help, especially on sinking lines. There is a video on the Orvis Learning Center by Pete Kutzer called [00:23:00.345] "Casting Sinking Lines." You may wanna watch that one. It's under the casting section in the Learning Center. You may wanna watch that one.
But generally, just opening up your loop, not trying to throw a really tight loop. And if you're hitting your rod, probably you're trying to make your loop too tight with the dry dropper rig or with the streamer. And also, you may be reaching your arm way out. It's best to raise and lower [00:23:30.154] your elbow in nearly any kind of casting, and that helps open up that loop and will keep you from throwing those tailing loops or hitting your rod. So, I think it's just gonna come down to practice casting with those different rigs, maybe cut the hooks off a couple of old flies, and then practice with those different types of flies, dry dropper arrangement or, you know, a streamer in a sinking line.
Here's one from Andrew from Pennsylvania and Vermont. [00:24:01.250] "Do trout get lost after a long fight? I'm sure if you catch a trout and are able to land it and release it in the same general area, it finds its way back home easily enough. But what about if they take you a fair bit outside the pool run where you hook them?" Yeah, that's an interesting question, Andrew, and I think it's both. You know, I've fished in drift boats a fair amount where you hook a fish and [00:24:30.180] it kinda goes along with you as the boat is drifting unless the guy drops the anchor, sometimes you can't drop the anchor. And I know that guides have told me many times that they've hooked, you know, a fairly large fish that they identified, that they see on a regular basis and they've landed it downstream quite a ways. And the very next day, the fish is back in the same spot. So I think lots of times, they do find their way home. I guess they know which [00:25:00.170] way they were going and they know how to get back to that spot. I'm sure there's some times when they get relocated. But, you know, there is evidence that they do find their way back to the same spot.
Here's one from Jeff. "I'm a big fan of the show and listen every week. Last week's episode included the following listener question, and I think that warrants an important correction." So this is the quote from the listener question. "Here's an email from Hunter. I know you [00:25:30.349] may be aware of the current situation of public lands being sold as part of the Inflation Reduction Act. Obviously, this is a terrifying thought as an avid outdoorsman." And then Jeff goes on to correct us. "Inflation Reduction Act in no way involves selling off public lands. Both IRA and BIL, the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, IIJA, also known as the Bipartisan Infrastructure [00:26:00.619] Law, BIL, included historic levels of funding for natural infrastructure improvements on public and private lands. This was a huge opportunity for outdoor recreation in rural economies.
Sadly, since January, much of this funding has been prevented from reaching local economies in critical areas like riparian restoration and fuel reduction in wildfire prone areas of the arid West. Instead, I think your listener [00:26:30.140] is responding to initiatives from the secretaries of the Department of the Interior as well as Housing and Urban Development to sell off 'underutilized public lands.' This is also a current push in Congress' budget reconciliation process to include public land sales to boost revenue. For more information, check out Trout Unlimited's socials and their campaign against this or visit TU/public lands protecting [00:27:00.430] America's outdoor heritage." I'm sure you can find that using a search. "I appreciate that you maintain a nonpartisan forum while supporting our shared conservation values."
So thank you, Jeff. And honestly, I should have done my due diligence on that podcast question. But, also honestly, all these bills and all this political stuff just makes my head hurt. And so, thankfully, [00:27:30.140] there are people like you that study this stuff and understand it. And I think Trout Unlimited is a good place to investigate probably a nonpartisan view of this, but a view from the people who appreciate public lands and wild trout.
Here's one from Ben from Pennsylvania. "Quick question. When setting up double nymphing, do you usually put the heavier fly on the bottom below the [00:28:00.069] lighter fly or on top with the lighter fly below? Are there situations where it's better to have one setup versus the other?" Of course, Ben, the answer to the question is yes. Sometimes you can you can put the heavier fly on top. Sometimes you can put it on the bottom. And you probably should experiment with that. The way I do it...and I don't know if this is right or wrong, but the way I do it is if there are [00:28:30.240] there are some flies hatching or I see some see some flies around or I think there are nymphs drifting in the current, you know, due to a hatch or being dislocated from the bottom with a high water event or something, I will put my lighter fly on top because I think that there are probably some fish feeding in the middle of the water column darting up and grabbing those things in the middle of the water [00:29:00.259] column.
Now, on the other hand, if I want to get something like a little tiny midge larva down on the bottom, you know, you just can't put enough weight on a little tiny fly. And I don't particularly care for using split shot, although it's one way of doing it. I will put the smaller fly, smaller lighter fly below the heavier fly, use the heavier fly as an anchor to get the fly down. And [00:29:30.430] hopefully, you know, sometimes the fish will also take the bigger fly. But it's almost like a sacrificial anchor to get that smaller fly down. So, that's the way I do it. I think that's the way a lot of people do it, but there may be other instances. And I think you should just play around with it and see which works better for you.
Here's one from Patrick from California. "I'm getting better because of you, and I'm grateful to learn from your expertise. I'm sure your patience gets tested every week, but listeners' questions [00:30:00.079] and your answers are often my favorite part of your podcast. Now, let's test your patience with one more question." And this is one I've answered before many times. "I always use barbless hooks and I'm finding myself using two flies more frequently than not. I like tying the dropper to the bend of the first fly with a standard clinch knot avoiding the mess of tags and such. But with barbless hooks, I often find the clinch knot slips off the end of the first fly. Am I doing something wrong? I prefer not to use [00:30:30.150] tags as tying to the bend seems cleaner and doesn't interfere with my casting as much. However, maybe a tag is unavoidable with barbless hooks."
Well, Patrick, I go through the same thing, and I tie them to the bend with a barbless hook often because I'm lazy and it's easy and it seems to work for me. But, yeah, it's gonna slip off occasionally because there's no barb to hold that clinch knot in place. Doesn't happen that often, and I'm willing to risk it. But there's another way of doing it without [00:31:00.335] tying a separate dropper, and that's tying your bottom flyer, your tag, to the eye of the first fly so you got two clinch knots coming out of the eye of the first fly. And you wouldn't think that would work too well because kind of the tippet's gonna be in line with the fly. And you know, you might miss some strikes, but it actually works pretty well. So just tying to both pieces of tippit to the eye [00:31:30.204] of the main fly, if you can visualize that, will work pretty well. And it's a little cleaner than tying on another tag. Doesn't let the fly drift as freely, but it doesn't seem to bother the trout most instances. So try that and see if that works for you.
And finally, I wanna give special thanks to Las Prado, Elena Sabiniak, and their family for supporting the Iowa Driftless Chapter of Trout Unlimited [00:32:00.085] and Coldwater Conservation in the Driftless Region. All right. That is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Ross Purnell about getting published in the fly fishing world. Well, my guest today is Ross Purnell. And Ross and I have been working together on various things and fish together for, I don't know how many years, Ross, must be close to 30 years.
Ross: Since the '90s.
Tom: Yeah. [00:32:30.184] And you are now,editor and publisher of "Fly Fisherman" magazine. And you started out in media with the Virtual Fly Shop. Right? That was the that early website, which was kinda groundbreaking in those days.
Ross: Yeah, it really was. That was the first five years. That was '96 to 2001. And then 2001, I moved [00:33:00.404] to Pennsylvania and started working exclusively on the print magazine.
Tom: Yeah. So since 2001, that's a long time. That's a long time to be editor of a magazine these days.
Ross: It's a long time for anything in the fly fishing business. You and I have been around long enough to see how frequently roles change and people go from one place to another. I feel like you and me are like, you know, [00:33:30.184] the posts that don't go anywhere.
Tom: Yeah. I don't know if I like that analogy.
Ross: [crosstalk 00:33:36.806] in the ocean the tide goes back and forth, and back and forth, and those post are still there with a merganser taking a crap on them.
Tom: Yeah. That's very appropriate. We don't talk about mergansers on this podcast, Ross. They're not my favorite birds.
Ross: Oh, okay. Or anyone's favorite.
Tom: Yeah. Anyway, [00:34:00.319] you know, a few weeks ago or a month or two ago, I did a podcast with Dave Krasinski [SP] on how to write and how to make your fishing writing better. And it was really super popular and people learned a lot. I learned a lot actually doing it. And then I started to get questions, "Well, that's fine, but how do I get published? How do I get my name out there? How do I get into that fly fisherman magazine [00:34:30.954] type thing?" And so, I asked you, and you said, "Well, I've got plenty of experience with that." So, we're gonna talk today about how someone should start trying to get published and what their path should be if they're interested in becoming a fly fishing writer.
Ross: Sounds good. I'm I'm happy to share, like, what my path has been, share, you know, how [00:35:00.280] to get published in "Fly Fisherman" magazine. That's pretty specific. How to get published in general...
Tom: Well, just in magazines in general.
Ross: ...is pretty wide open.
Tom: Yeah. You don't wanna talk about your path or my path. We're dinosaurs, man. The world has changed since you and I started writing for magazines.
Ross: That's true.
Tom: So let's talk about today. Where should somebody start? What should they do first?
Ross: [00:35:30.900] Well, you know, we're talking about writers here specifically. You mentioned Dave's book, which is amazing. You know, are we talking specifically about writing or just any kind of content like photography and [crosstalk 00:35:47.192]?
Tom: Well, let's say...well, I think we need to talk about both because I don't think you can submit stuff to magazines without a good photo package these days. Let's talk about you've got a piece, you've polished your [00:36:00.130] writing, and you think it's ready to go, you think it's ready for the world to see. What's your next step? So we're not talking about writing the piece because we talked about that before. We're talking about getting it published.
Ross: Okay. My biggest piece of advice is simply to do your homework. And, you know, we're not talking about all of the research and effort you put into writing the piece, but there's a lot of [00:36:30.000] homework that you need to do to find a home for it. Yeah. You wouldn't believe how much...like, almost once a week or once every two weeks, I get somebody sending in a fly fishing poem that they wrote, and they want it to be published in "Fly Fisherman" magazine. Well, we don't publish poems. We haven't published a poem since the 1970s. [00:37:00.869] So for people to, like, send that in randomly just shows they haven't done their homework and they don't know what kind of stuff that we publish. So they haven't done their homework. You need to take a look at your piece. This is your creation, your little baby. Like, where's the best place for it?
And if you're just starting out, [00:37:30.750] you know, I suggest that the best place for it is a local publication or a social media publication that, you know, may accept a lot of quantity. And you get your work out there and you get some feedback, gain some notoriety and you gain some practice from it. To get published in a print magazine, I mean, it's very difficult because [00:38:00.150] it's limited. Like, every page of the magazine that we print and mail to people costs thousands of dollars, so we don't just put anything on there. It's very carefully curated and, you know, it's difficult to get onto those print pages. So find a place that's a good fit for your story and that maybe is a little easier to get into. And a lot of times, local publications are great. [00:38:30.130] That's how I got started. You don't wanna start with a big national magazine right off the bat, usually.
Tom: Yeah. I typically tell people to start with a local Trout Unlimited or FFI newsletter for their pieces because they're always looking for content. And you know, it's probably a lot easier to get it published there.
Ross: Oh, yeah. All [00:39:00.135] those newsletters, I mean, there's gotta be a hundred of them across the country, and they come out every couple of months, and they're very interested in filling it up and getting something interesting. The main thing that you want is to get your story in front of people and get some feedback and see what they think. Writing is like a craft, you know? And the more you do it, the better you get at it.
Tom: Yeah. [00:39:30.135] And the more you do it and get feedback from other people...you know, if you just do it in a vacuum, you're not gonna be able to evaluate it very well.
Ross: So take a good look at the piece you've got. You know, it could be on a local fishery, then there's, you know, like you said, the local Trout Unlimited or there's...I know, like where I live in Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission, they have magazines and publications [00:40:00.235] and stuff that's associated with the state. And I'm pretty sure every state has stuff like that. They're looking to get content to put in all of their publications. So if you have, like, local expert knowledge in sort of like a how to, where to way, that's a great place to get started.
Tom: Ross, when advising someone to submit something, what do you recommend? [00:40:30.465] How how should they prepare it, and how should they pitch it, and what what should they include when they're trying to...or should they send a query letter first?
Ross: I prefer a query letter. Like, if you just want to publish something and you haven't written it yet, like, I really like to get query letters with, like, three to five of the best ideas, and then, you know, like a CV with other other stuff that you've [00:41:00.195] published. And if it looks credible and I like some of the ideas, I'll ask them to go ahead. But if you've already got a piece, then, you know, it's no problem just sending it along with supporting photography and stuff. I really enjoy seeing a complete package right off the bat. A lot of times you get...you know, at "Fly Fisherman" magazine, we get stories, and [00:41:30.094] there's not enough supporting photography for it. I mean, you really need to, you know, be a good photographer to get published in "Fly Fisherman" magazine. That really helps. But if you've got a story that's just lights out and it's really good and we can get freelance photography to accompany it, we can do that too. But if you've got the photography, why not send it? I mean, it just makes your package [00:42:00.405] look a lot better.
Tom: Yeah. I mean, that's why I started in photography many years ago is because I realized that I wanted to write stuff, but I couldn't afford to hire a photographer. Let's face it, we need to get this right out in the open, you're not gonna make a living writing for fly fishing magazines.
Ross: You have to do it because you love it.
Tom: Yeah. Or you wanna see your name in print, or you got something you really wanna share with people, [00:42:30.179] or it's a sideline for you.
Ross: Yep. You know, at "Fly Fisherman" magazine, we have a lot of guides and outfitters and lodge owners and stuff like that that write for us. And, you know, they have other reasons to promote themselves and their operation or their business or their fly tying company. So there's usually a lot of [00:43:00.315] different motivation. There's very, very few people I run into that are writing for the love of writing, but there are a few.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. There are a few.
Ross: Dave Krasinski. Yeah.
Tom: He loves to write. He told me. He he confessed to me, he loves to write. I was like, oh, good for you. I wish I could learn to love to write.
Ross: And you could tell. That really comes across in the stuff that he writes.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Ross: A lot of other people, they don't love [00:43:30.670] to write so much as they love to share and educate other people. Like, you know, a lot of people are just really great teachers. They don't really...you know, maybe the writing's a bit of a chore for them, but they've got great ideas and they love helping people. I run into those kind of people very frequently. They've just got some good ideas. And you know, it's just like fly fishing. You and I both, you know, get a lot of joy out of, like, showing somebody [00:44:00.260] how to do something or how to be successful. I mean, fly fishing is something we love. So anytime you can help someone else understand your love for it, it's worth it.
Tom: Yeah. Yep. It sure is. It sure is. It's very it's very satisfying. I'm sure that's why both you and I do it. Once you get a piece, how much editing on average [00:44:30.010] do you do? I mean, I know that it's gotta vary from a lot to almost none, but on the average, how much editing do you do to a piece?
Ross: Yeah, I don't think you can say an average. And I don't really wanna name any names. But I mean sometimes there's people who are really expert fishermen. They're really good at what they do. They have great ideas, but they are not good writers. [00:45:00.230] And basically I have to rewrite almost every single sentence.
Tom: Wow.
Ross: Like, for instance, "Fly Fisherman," we are we prefer an active voice, not a passive voice. Passive voice is something that's used in a lot of academic journals and stuff like that. But passive voice...and I tell our writers that it needs to be written in an active [00:45:30.090] voice and it still comes in, it's passive voice. So I have to go through the story and, every single sentence, just reconstruct it. And a passive and active voice is something you can look up online. There's tons of tutorials on it, and it's a pretty easy thing to do, but just a little thing like that will cause me to reorder and rewrite every single sentence in a story. [00:46:00.275] On the other hand, there's some really great people that I work with that are total pros, professional journalists, and I just don't touch their stuff. I don't mind mentioning Hillary Hutchison. I mean, she is a pro. I do not edit her stories at all. Like, maybe a capital letter here, a lowercase letter there, but basically it doesn't need to be touched because [00:46:30.664] she's a trained journalist. She's a super professional at her craft, and she sends perfect stuff.
Tom: Oh, that's great. Great to hear. How many pieces do you reject a month, Ross? Or what percentage?
Ross: I probably reject 8 or 10 stories a week.
Tom: A week?
Ross: Yeah.
Tom: And, you know, what percentage [00:47:00.474] roughly is that of the pieces that you get submitted?
Ross: I'd say I reject 95% of the stories that come in.
Tom: Wow.
Ross: Of the of the stuff that we publish in "Fly Fisherman," about half of it is stuff I've assigned. I just think, you know, I hear about something, I think we need a story. So I go to somebody and I ask for them to write it. And in that case, it almost always gets published.
Tom: [00:47:30.744] And you've got a reliable source. You've got somebody that's a professional usually that you know is gonna produce quality content.
Ross: Yeah. And I know I need that story to fill a gap, like, you know, I hear there's a trout kill on a certain river or the dam on...Hebgen Dam springs a leak and, you know, there's a dam problem and the water goes dry. Like, we're definitely gonna do that story. [00:48:00.315] So I find the right person to write it, and it's gonna get published because, you know, that's my job as an editor. There's other stuff, about 50% is where people basically convince me. They send their story in that they've written, and they convince me that this is a great idea and that we should publish the story. And those are the stories that I'm talking about you need to do your homework because, [00:48:31.005] like, to get published in "Fly Fisherman" magazine, we have a certain type of content.
For instance, at the start of the book, we have three departments called horizons, rising tides, and the migration, and they deal with the very specific areas of environmental issues, personality profiles, and adventure fly fishing in far-flung places. So if you do [00:49:00.204] your homework, you can see, okay, does my story fit into any of those departments? Or is it more of a feature story that has, like, really amazing photography and is about a how to, where to kind of story, say, on, like, a famous river or how to tie knots or, you know, other subject matter. So you've gotta do your homework [00:49:30.264] with "Fly Fisherman" to see how your story fits into what "Fly Fisherman" does. If it's a haiku, it doesn't fit, so don't send it to me.
And it's really funny how I get these things, and like the number one kind of story that I reject is just, I call them me and Joe fishing stories. And it's just like, "I [00:50:00.284] took a fishing trip with my dad, and on day one, we went to such and such a place, and I caught a fish, then he caught a fish," and then, you know, the next day the same thing happened again. Like, no one is interested in a regurgitation of your fishing trip with your brother, your college friend, or anything like that. Like, that is not journalism, and just, you know, a story that's [00:50:30.094] all about you is not gonna go anywhere. Instead, you need to...you know, we're looking for real journalism. So we're looking for people that do research and interview the local experts and review, you know, past trends and past seasons and talk to people at fly shops and, you know, can pass along real-life information. Sure, you can put [00:51:00.344] an anecdote in there on, like, you know, "I did fish there," and, you know, I like stories that have personal anecdotes in them, but that should be 5% or 10% of the story. The other 90% needs to be research.
Tom: Yeah. Now that's the case probably for "Fly Fisherman" because you are more of a how to, where to go, [00:51:30.769] conservation-based magazine. You know, someone's looking at "The Drake" or "Fly Fish Journal," again, a me and Joe story won't work, but they are much more likely to accept an essay, but it's still gotta be a good story. Right? It's still gotta have something. And people, again, need to do their homework with other publications. What kind of stuff [00:52:00.224] do they publish? What kind of voice [crosstalk 00:52:02.958]?
Ross: That's exactly what I mean by do your homework. Do your homework and find out what publication this is gonna work at. You know, we run a lot of really long...you know, a lot of our feature stories are 2,500 to 3,000 words long. They're six to eight pages long. So we do long-form content and a lot of it. But "The Drake," which is a very fine publication, [00:52:30.619] has a lot of opportunities for, like, little short snippets and stuff like that that's just one-page long, which, you know, fits for a different kind of readership, and you can put more kinds of content in it. It's not like one's better than the other or one's right or wrong. They're just different. So if you've got a piece that's 500 words long and you come to me at "Fly Fisherman" magazine and try to sell it to me, [00:53:00.190] you haven't done your homework. Like, we don't do 500-word stories because, you know, we try to get really deep into things.
Tom: Well, you might in those columns in the beginning. Right? I mean, those...
Ross: The columns in the beginning even are about 2,000 words...
Tom: Oh, they are? Okay.
Ross: ...[crosstalk 00:53:19.682] pages. Yeah. So the only, like, short-form stuff we do are, like, little newscasts and stuff, and those are [00:53:30.030] all almost...like, I almost write all those. They're just little news items and stuff like that. Even, you know, the smallest things we do are, like, book and film reviews, and they're about 750 words. So, you know, if you look through the magazine and study it carefully, you can find that, you know, hey, these guys review books. Like, they review films. So if that's the kind of thing [00:54:00.420] you want to write, then you got a good shot at "Fly Fisherman" because that's the type of thing that we do. But, you know, a lot of the really short stuff, we don't do.
Tom: Okay. Good. So know your audience. Know your market before you send something in. Save Russ the headache of having to write you a rejection letter. Right?
Ross: Yeah. And there's a lot to more to doing your homework. For instance, [00:54:30.380] like, at "Fly Fisherman," we do literary stuff, we do essays, but we have a regular columnist that does that. And Steve Ramirez does the Seasonable Angler at the back of every magazine. Just like Nick Lyons did, you know, 30 years ago. Just like John Gurek [SP] used to do at the back of "Fly Rod & Reel." [00:55:00.155] So you have a regular columnist. So if you have that type of thing, you're not going to beat the regular columnist. I mean, I get this stuff every couple months. People say, "I think this would be perfect for Seasonable Angler," but we've had the same guy running the column for four or five years. So, you know, when I get emails like that, it's like they haven't seen the magazine for 10 years or something. [00:55:30.494]
And the same thing with "Fly Tyer's" Bench. Charlie Craven writes our fly tying column, and we've got his content lined up 12, 18 months in advance where he picks out the flies and he's doing stuff. So, no, you can't do the "Fly Tyer's" Bench or "Fly Fisherman" because that spot's already taken by a regular columnist. So when you do your homework though, you can find out, okay, this department, it's somebody new every [00:56:00.155] week, every issue, so there's an opportunity for me there. That's all part of, like, doing your research.
Tom: How about the photographs that you're gonna include with a pitch on a piece? What what recommendations do you have for the picture package that would come with an article?
Ross: Photography's really been interesting because, you know, back when [00:56:31.454] you and I were shooting slide photography, the whole thing was much more difficult. And so when you get a good photo submission that comes along with an article, it's pretty much a done deal. But digital photography and iPhones have just changed the game so much and made it so much more accessible for everyone to take a very mediocre photo. I mean, it's much, much more difficult. Like, you really have to go above and [00:57:00.014] beyond to get photos that are exceptional. So the very top guys are really working at it.
Tom: What makes an exceptional photo that's gonna bowl you over and take a second look at the article or the piece?
Ross: Well, for me, a lot of times, it's content, but I don't make the sole decision. I work closely with [00:57:30.105] our art director, Dennis Pastucha. And really, when we get a photo submission that's good, he's the one that goes through and picks out the photos for publication. I have final say. I can say, "Well, you know, I don't like that one." It's a team effort, basically. We go back and forth. But, you know, I like the content. He likes the composition. Lighting is probably the number [00:58:00.054] one thing that's overlooked by amateurs, basically. I can tell instantly that if you're just like out in the daytime snapping photos, you know, under broad sunlight that you're not paying very much attention to photography. Like, if you're pretty serious about it, you are up at sunrise and sunset, or else you are out there in stormy weather when the sun's just breaking through [00:58:30.195] the clouds. Photography is all about light. And if you're not paying attention to the light and using the light and taking advantage of really interesting lighting situations, then you're not getting good photographs. The people that pay attention to the light are the artists. And then there's everyone else who's just an amateur.
Tom: Well, the good photographers are almost never fishing while they're [00:59:00.284] shooting pictures too.
Ross: Oh, yeah. No, you're there to take photos. Yeah. A lot of these guys, a lot of just amateur snapshots and stuff. They're just out fishing and they whip out their iPhone when they catch a fish, and that's just not gonna cut it. You know, I have to turn down a lot of good stories that are on really interesting locations [00:59:30.224] and interesting fish, and all that comes with the story is 20 pictures of 20 different fish, you know, posed in the same boat. It's like, I'm sorry. Like, we need variety, like, not just fish shots. I know people who think they're experts accuse different publications of just, oh, you just do grip and grins. No, we don't. There has to [01:00:00.105] be much more than that. That's why I talked about the lighting. There needs to be landscapes. There has to be, you know, variety. One type is landscapes.
Another type is environmental shots that really help you understand what it's like to be in a place. You know, whether that's like a bonefish flat or like a bouldery stream in Vermont with, like, green leaves all around [01:00:30.005] you. Like, we need photography that helps you understand the environment. And then you need macro photography that shows the flies up close, and insects, or the inside of your fly box, or, you know, your reel, pieces of tackle, dewdrops on a leaf, anything like that. That's what a real photographer does is not just different light, but [01:01:00.295] different perspectives. And a lot of times that means getting up really close or getting back really far with a drone or creating really different angles. We all walk around with our eyes about 5 feet off the ground and see, you know, a pretty static per perspective. A good photographer gives you a different perspective that we don't always see. So, you know, if you're sending in these, like, snapshots, the kind of things that [01:01:30.159] you see pinned up on a fly shop wall, that's a perspective we've all seen too much of, quite frankly. We need a different perspective. Give me drones. Give me underwater housings and, you know, all kinds of weird stuff that I haven't seen before. That's the kind of stuff I want.
And good profile, portrait shots. Like, one of the most amazing parts of fly fishing is the people that [01:02:00.289] are in it, whether they're children, or women, or, you know, curmudgeony old guys in a fly shop with wrinkles all over them. I mean, people are fascinating, and they come in a lot of different sizes and shapes and stuff. I love seeing shots of the people. They could be holding fish, but like, I wanna see who they are. Just like the rivers and the bonefish flats that I was talking about, I wanna see what [01:02:30.070] it's like to be there. I wanna see who these people are. You know ,a good photo can, like, bring out their personality sometimes. So please, like, get these people to take their sunglasses off so we can see their eyes and get them in a relaxed environment where they're happy and talking, and let's celebrate all these awesome people.
Tom: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. [01:03:00.579] You can't do it all with one perspective and even one lens. Luckily, you can you can shoot macro with a phone now and you can shoot portrait shots. Can't really get good telephoto, but you can do all the other stuff. Can't get drone shots with phones either. Not yet. Not yet. I'm sure it's coming.
Ross: But there's so many drones out there. It's pretty easy to find somebody who can go along if you've got a good story to get drone [01:03:30.219] shots. And there's such a thing as too many of those too. What I'm saying is there needs to be a variety so that we can have choices to put the story together. They just can't be all one thing. I have had stories before where people send it in, and basically all they've got is drone shots.
Tom: You don't just want that either. [crosstalk 01:03:51.865] Yeah. Yeah. Definitely doesn't work. All right. What else, Ross? What else can you think [01:04:00.210] of for advice for somebody that wants to get published?
Ross: Well, to get published in "Fly Fisherman" magazine, like, we're a book written by experts, but a lot of times you don't have to be the expert. You can just do the interviews and stuff. I have been telling people for 25 years that I'm not an expert fly fisher. I'm an expert journalist, but I talk to people [01:04:30.289] who are experts. And I think that really opens the door to almost anybody out there. You don't have to be Flip Pallot or somebody who's been fishing for for 50 years to be able to write about this stuff. If you're a good writer and you interview the right people, then you can craft an incredible story and you can bring expertise into it. You know, we want our magazine to be [01:05:00.059] like a voice of authority. So, like, what's written in "Fly Fisherman" is the absolute truth or, you know, you can depend on it. It's credible. You know, if you wanna go out on the internet, there's a lot of information out there that's not credible. We try to make it as credible as possible. So if you wanna write a story, you gotta talk to credible people, credible sources, and talk to multiple sources to find out if there's disagreement [01:05:30.139] or whatever. You know, I just, finished a story today where the author interviewed 40 different sources for a story.
Tom: Wow.
Ross: And that's a lot of work. But the good news is for everybody that, like, if you're willing to do the work, that then you can have the credibility and expertise, and you can just put it in your story. One story that sort of jumps into my mind [01:06:00.590] had your face on it, Tom. Tim Tamissa did a story called "The Experts Voted." And he just, like, interviewed, I think, 16 different expert fly fishers, asked them what their favorite flies were, and then made some, like, really cool spreadsheets that compared and stuff and found out that there was some flies that, you know, were sort of democratically [01:06:30.989] elected by a panel of experts. So, you know, it's not him making the expert choices. He's just collecting the data. I thought that was pretty cool. And again, it just shows if you interview the right people, like you go to Tom Rosenbauer and George Daniel and Charlie Craven and, you know, the list goes on and on, you talk to them about who their favorite flies are, you can find out information. It's research. [01:07:00.335] That's the journalism that I'm looking for. It doesn't have to be about your favorite fly, you know?
Tom: No. It doesn't.
Ross: Or your favorite spot to go fishing or what happened to you the day you went fishing.
Tom: Yeah. Most cases, people don't care about that. You're just one person. Right? They want a little bit of a crowdsourcing thing there. Do you get pieces that you suspect were written by AI?
Ross: [01:07:31.335] That's only happened to me one time, but I have heard from...
Tom: Really?
Ross: Yeah, I have heard from other publications that they're starting to see it more and more. It's something that I'm worried about for sure. But fly fishing is so intricate and complex, we're not there yet. [01:08:00.425] We'll see. It's definitely something I'm worried about, but I just haven't seen it.
Tom: Yeah. Of course, you don't know if you've seen it or not, right?
Ross: I'm pretty confident. I have seen it one time and that story was never published, but...
Tom: I think I know the story you're talking about. And it wasn't mine.
Ross: Yeah. Go ahead go ahead and try me. See if [01:08:30.135] you can get it past.
Tom: Well, hopefully, maybe someday, you know, like, with photographs now, they have ways of telling that they're AI enhanced. Maybe there will be a way to check writing somehow. I don't know how.
Ross: Well, I do know that, like, these artificial intelligence things, companies are churning through all of our content that Fly Fisherman" [01:09:00.475] has published over the last 56 years and digesting it, and they're also going through all of our video content. We're part of a bigger company, and there's AI companies that are assimilating, like, for instance, all of the "In Fisherman" TV shows and stuff. So they're trying to learn about fishing.
Tom: How do you know they're doing that? [01:09:30.524] Is there a way to tell that some AI thing is crawling your content?
Ross: I don't wanna get in trouble.
Tom: Okay. All right. Okay.
Ross: But I know for a fact they're doing it.
Tom: Okay. All right. All right.
Ross: Let's just say they're doing it with consent.
Tom: Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it. Do they need consent to do stuff like that?
Ross: Well, there's one AI company that went [01:10:00.255] ahead and did it without consent, and "The New York Times" and a bunch of other publications sued them, and sued them successfully. So now AI companies are going around and purchasing the information.
Tom: Okay. Okay. Interesting. I wasn't aware of that.
Ross: So that is good news. They've tried to just take it, but they've learned, and now they're not taking it. They're they're trying to buy content to feed [01:10:30.284] their machine. What's gonna come out the other end, who knows? Like, it could be a decade from now. It could be 12 months from now. I don't know. It seems to be moving very rapidly. But it's a very real thing.
Tom: Yep. I'm confident right now that I can out-write an AI machine, but who knows how long that'll last.
Ross: Yeah. And it's the same in photography. But I think [01:11:00.555] in both your writing and your photography, if you're out there trying to get something unusual and exceptional, then you will always beat the AI machine. But, you know, what the AI machine turns out is very generic and sort of glamorized in really weird ways. Yeah. You've seen the AI fish photos and stuff. You could tell.
Tom: Yeah, you can.
Ross: Like, I saw one a [01:11:30.085] couple days ago that was like a girl holding this fish that looked like a rainbow trout, but then it had spots underneath like it was a brook trout. And it was very odd how, like, the AI machine has sort of combined different kinds of trout. It's not authentic. And I think people at this point can still recognize that it's not authentic and it's just, like, super generative.
Tom: Well, maybe [01:12:00.145] it was watching Hank Patterson videos and heard about the Cutty Rainbow.
Ross: Exactly. He was the original in doing that, but now AI machines are doing it. They're trying to put it all together in imagery. A Cutty Rainbrow.
Tom: Cutty Rainbrow. That's right. Cutty Rainbrow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ross: Yep. I think anyone who's a real fly fisher can recognize that stuff and probably recognize when writing is in the same vein.
Tom: I hope [01:12:30.265] so. I hope so.
Ross: We'll see what the future holds, right?
Tom: Yep. We will. We will. It's gonna be an interesting world, for sure. Well, thank you, Ross. I hope this has been helpful to people. It's certainly been entertaining for me and educational, and I hope you've given people some some hope in ways to start out with their writing and then probably maybe help ease [01:13:00.029] the pain of rejection letters knowing that 95% of the pieces get rejected. So, you know, you just have to keep trying.
Ross: Yep. One thing I tell a lot of people is...it's really weird. I get these, sort of, weird off-of-the-cuff inquiries that come in through the website. My direct contact information is all published in the magazine. So I'm not gonna give out my contact information. I'm just gonna say. [01:13:30.109] it's on page 4 or page 6 of every magazine. It's right there, you can contact me directly. Just do your research and look at the magazine first. And you'll see, there it is. I'm not a hard guy to get in touch with.
Tom: Buy a magazine and study it, and then you'll know.
Ross: It's $6.99.
Tom: Or you can probably get a better deal if you subscribe, right? I'm sure there's deals online.
Ross: Yeah. That's if you buy one issue at Hudson News.
Tom: Yeah. Or in the [01:14:00.140] airport or something.
Ross: Take a look at the magazine and my contact information's in there. And if you need some help or you want some advice, contact me.
Tom: Great. Well, thank you. It's very generous, Ross. All right, Ross. Well, thank you for taking the time today, and hope to see you soon.
Ross: Always a pleasure to talk with you, Tom.
Tom: And the magazine continues to look great. I do read it cover to cover, believe it or not. I do always read [01:14:30.180] it, in the bathroom, but I do read it.
Ross: That's great to hear. The one we just finished is a real humdinger, and it's got some super juicy sort of controversial stuff in it.
Tom: Oh, good.
Ross: So when you read that one, can you please get back to me and let me know what you think of it?
Tom: I will absolutely. I will absolutely. All right, Ross. Thanks very much.
Ross: Thanks a lot.
Tom: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question [01:15:00.010] or a comment? Send it to us at