Ten tips for summer smallmouth, with award-winning guide Matt Miles

Tom: Hi, and welcome to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer, and this week my guest is Captain Matt Miles who is 2023 Orvis Endorsed Guide to the Year and there's a good reason for that. He's an amazing guy, a terrific guide, and a very, very experienced guide. He guides both in the Rockies and back in Virginia, his home state of Virginia. Matt's now in Virginia, he does a lot of smallmouth fishing. Matt has come up with 10 tips for summer smallmouth fishing. Smallmouth Bass are one of the most popular fly rod species in the country. They're found in many parts of the United States and they're just a great fly rod fish and a very agreeable fly rod fish, although at times they can be a little difficult. So, you may get some tips on Matt from those days when the smallmouths are suffering from a case of lockjaw.
Before we talk to Matt and before we do the Fly Box, I got a product tip for you. The product tip is an inexpensive product, it's $39. And they are called the three-millimeter neoprene guard socks. If you wet wade during the summer, as a lot of us do when the water gets warm and the weather gets warm and you really don't want to deal with a pair of waders, you can just wear your normal wading shoes, which is what I do. I pick a pair of my wading shoes, either felt or rubber depending on where I'm going.
And, you know, if you've put them just on over bare feet, there's couple things are going to happen. One is they're going to be a little loose, and the other is that you're going to get blisters when you get sand and the side of the wading shoe or just from rubbing on that loose-fitting wading shoe. So, you can take up that space and kind of cushion your feet with neoprene gravel guards. I have had a pair of these for, God, I think like seven or eight years, the same pair, and they're still going strong. I wear them under my flats boots when I'm bonefishing, I wear them under flats boots when I'm walking the beaches of Cape Cod, and then I wear them in small streams and big rivers here in the East and in the Rocky Mountains during the summer, and they just about lasted forever.
So, it's a great investment, and if you wet wade, it's something you really got to have. The other thing you can do when you're wet-wading is just wear a pair of thick, heavy cotton or wool socks. But the problem is it kind of tears up the socks and ruins them and then you got these wet socks that take forever to dry whereas these neoprene gravel guards dry, you know, in virtually no time. So, anyway, it's a great thing to have if you plan to do any wet wading.
Okay, now let's do the Fly Box. And if you have a question for the Fly Box, question for me, you can send it to This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. Either put your message in your question or comment or tip in the body of your email, or you can attach a voice file and maybe I'll read it on the air. By the way, there were a couple of podcast questions where people were, like, leaving for a trip and they needed an immediate answer to a question. Don't trust the Fly Box for questions that are time limited because I don't always get to every question every week and the best place for you to go is the Orvis Outfitter service.
They can either respond to an email or you can do live chat or you can call them on the phone at 800-548-9548. They are a group of 13 experienced anglers who are found throughout the country. They're available seven days a week and they can answer your questions in a hurry. So, don't wait for the podcast to answer your questions because it might be too late. All right. First question.
This is an email from Connor. "Big fan of the podcast and have been truly enjoying learning the sport of fly fishing through the mentorship you all provide. My family recently acquired a place down on the Cumberland River in southern Kentucky. We recently got skunked on three days of really dirty water conditions and three days of low water and clear conditions with full moon cycles. I felt like I had presented my flies in a fashion similar to the way I have fished in Colorado where I've had success, but I've struggled to even get anything to strike on streamers, dries, and nymphs.
Spoke to some local guides that gave me advice on patterns, sizes, and depths to fish, but I still seem to struggle with trout there and these guides still seem to crush it through the same conditions. If you have any suggestions, please let me know. Secondly, we are new to striper fishing and the river holds a great amount of them. What are your tips to fly fishing striper on freshwater rivers and patterns you would recommend? We have collected a lot of different streamer patterns in various sizes but would like some insight on when to throw them and if it's a time-sensitive matter on getting them to bite or if you can fish them throughout the day based on the presentation and streamers utilized."
So, kind of regarding your first question, you know, you got the flies from the guides, but the fly is often the least important piece of the puzzle. So, you know, I sympathize with you, dirty water is tough and a full moon is tough. I find that trout get weird on full moon and they tend not to feed as actively at least during the day. And for whatever reason, whether it affects the insect's behavior or it affects the trout behavior, I don't like fishing on a full moon. I just returned from afternoon on the Battenkill during a full moon and it was really kind of pathetic. So, I don't like full moon. So, that can be part of the problem.
But I think the main problem is, A, are there fish where you're fishing? Are you fishing the right kind of water? And B, how are you presenting the fly? You know, the flight pattern is sort of important but it's not the most important thing and a lot of us think that it is the most important thing but it's not, it'll help. Finding the fish in a feeding mood, getting the flight to them, and presenting it in the right manner is the most important.
So, my advice would be, if you can, to book a day with one of these guides and see what kind of wire they fish and how they fish their flies. Or when you see guides on the river, observe where they're fishing and how they're fishing their flies. And, you know, sometimes it's just the river is punky and is not going to give up fish easily. I found that the other day. So, don't give up, keep trying, but I would concentrate a little bit more on presentation and maybe moving around a little bit more instead of fishing the same water and finding out where the fish are holding.
Regarding stripers, I mainly fished them in saltwater but I have done some fishing for them in freshwater rivers. And probably the first thing you want to find out is what kind of bait is in the river. What are the fish feeding on? Are they fishing on stock trout, which they often do? Are they feeding on some sort of bait fish shad or something like that? And then, you know, try to match whatever the stripers are feeding on as closely as you can. In general, you probably want to...I mean, your freshwater streamers will work, but you probably want to get some saltwater flies. Because stripers, you know, originally a saltwater fish, they eat bigger flies, you probably want a fly big enough to interest them.
And I would start with some sort of poppers. You know, stripers can be...in the right conditions on a river, can be quite active and will take flies on the surface and aggressively strip popper. Or something like you want to have some Lefty's Deceivers and Clouser Minnows, those are great baitfish imitations, and have them in a range of sizes. I think, honestly, just white or blue and white or green and white on those flies or chartreuse and white will probably work fine on those stripers. Stripers tend to not be terribly selective most of the time, they're fairly opportunistic feeders.
And as far as time of day, that's really going to vary with the weather and the flow and the river and so on, but you can't beat fishing for stripers at first light and at last light. During the day, they may be a little deeper and you may have to go to a sinking line and deeper pools to interest them. But, you know, I would first of all try first light, I mean like right at dawn, half an hour before sunrise, and then right before dark and, of course, after dark. Stripers feed a lot at night, so if you're confident and careful and you want to fish at night for them, that may be a good time as well. As far as retrieves are concerned, you're going to have to experiment. Sometimes really fast work, sometimes slow, sometimes erratic. That's going to depend on the day and the particular river and the mood of the stripers. So, I would start there, you'll learn it eventually.
Christobel: Hi, Tom. This is Christobel, a Chilean living in BC, Canada, and I'm currently at the Squamish River chasing pink salmon. So, the season started a few weeks ago and and everybody is coming from all over the place to fish this famous river. And my question is coming to the color of the water since most of the water that feeds the Squamish is melting from glaciers, so the water is pretty murky, especially because it's so hot right now in the valley that just waters really murky. And there's obviously fly anglers like us and there's people using bait, so they use the centerpin rods using bait.
And obviously, bait is a bit more attractive than a fly to the fish because, you know, the smell and that scent that it leaves as it's like the eggs are melting or popping on the water. How do you try to differentiate yourself and make your fly as attractive as bait? How can you compete because there's a lot of people doing that? And for the fly angler, it's obviously tougher, you see way less bites with the fly compared to rod. So, yeah, that's my question. And thanks so much for what you do, like, your podcasts are incredible, so much information, and obviously, everyone appreciates what you do for this sport. Thanks so much and talk to you soon. Bye.
Tom: Now, Christobel, you're not going to do as well as bait fishing with a fly rod. First of all, the bait smells and, you know, the fish do have a sense of smell. And it's going to smell right, it's going to taste right because the people fishing with bait are fishing with what the fish are eating. You're trying to fool them. So, how can you get more effectively...how can you get more effective in fishing those fish? The best thing about a fly is you can be very precise with placing your fly and you want to find out where the fish are, and hopefully, you'll be doing some sight fishing, and you want to get that flight right in front of the fish.
You're going to have to get that fly close to them to the point where, you know, they're just gonna say, "Oh, there's a little snack," and open their mouth and eat it. They're not going to move along the way for your fly as far as they will for bait because it doesn't smell right and, you know, it doesn't look quite right. So, you got to kind of sneak up on them and give them something that looks like what they want. Luckily, fish aren't that smart and we can fool them with their flies, but you're never going to do as well as the bait anglers in that situation.
All right, let's do an email. This one is from Luke from Waterloo, Ontario. "I've recently gotten back into fly fishing after a number of years away from the sport. Since discovering your podcast a few weeks back, I've been binging your back catalog of previous episodes. While I might sound like a broken record, I'd like to thank you and Orvis for everything you do. My question is about which river near me I should hire a guide for the fall. As a master's student, money is a little tight and I can only afford one guiding trip for the next year. So, the two rivers I'm choosing between are the Upper Grand and the Upper Credit Rivers in southern Ontario.
For background on the rivers, if you don't know them, the Upper Grand is easy to fish, non-technical tailwater that only has stock brown trout. The river, however, is very fertile, and 20-inch plus brown trout are common. Whereas the Credit is a technical wild-only fishery filled with finicky brown trout and native brook trout. I have been out in the Grand River a number of times this year and I've had limited success indicator nymphing. While I would love to fish the Upper Credit, I thought I would try to cut my teeth on the easier-to-catch stock fish of the Grant. Talking to the local fly shop and by doing some internet sleuthing on local guide pages, I've also been able to find the runs and pools that a lot of the local guides tend to go to.
There are also ample online resources of where the public access points of the river are located. I was wondering what you think on where my money is best spent. Should I go to the river that is easier and I'm more familiar with or should I use the time with a guide to get information on a more technical stream and fish for wild trout? While it would be lovely to catch wild fish on the Credit, I would likely catch more and bigger fish on the Grand. I was also wondering if you think the best course of action is to just ask the guide and go with what he or she recommends."
Well, that's a tough one, Luke, because I don't know you and, you know, a lot of this is going to depend on your individual personality. So, if you need instant gratification and you want to catch some fish, I'd go to the Grand. However, if you're more of the inquisitive type and you want to learn something, you're probably going to learn a little bit more valuable things on the Credit because, you know, you're gonna be fishing for tougher wild trout and you may not catch many or you may not catch any. But by learning from the guide on the Credit, you're gonna have some probably higher-end technical skills because it's going to be more difficult to catch those fish.
So, it really depends on what you want out of it. Do you want to learn, or do you just want to have a good time and catch some fish? You'll learn stuff on the easier stock fish as well. I mean, if there's big fish in there, they're not going to be that easy. And yeah, you might want to discuss it with the guides. It's always a good thing to, you know, give a guide your expectations, what do you want out of the trip. So, I would call a guide and tell the guide what you are interested in, either improving your skill or just having a great day and catching some fish. I mean, you'll learn something on both rivers, but I would lean toward fishing for those tougher wild trout.
Ethan: Hi, Tom. I really appreciate the podcast and everything I've learned listening on my way to and from fishing outings. I recently had the privilege of spending three days fishing a well-known tailwater in northwestern Maine for native brook trout and wild landlocked salmon. It was quite an experience and I was able to catch fish on dries, nymphing under an indicator, and tightline nymphing. However, my experience generated a few questions that I was hoping you could answer. The first is about fighting fish downstream.
I was tightline nymphing in some pocket water when I suddenly felt a huge hit. I set the hook and saw a monster brook trout on my line. But after about 10 seconds of fighting, the fish headed straight downstream and I lost him immediately. I lost a few more moderately sized fish the same way on the trip. Is there anything you can do to keep fish on the line when they decide to run straight downstream? I was not in a position to move downriver due to the tree cover and rocks and was using a 3-weight Euro rod in this particular situation.
My second question is about right-sizing dry flies. I stopped in a fly shop at the start of my trip and the local shopkeeper recommended using a pretty large bushy attractor and stone fly imitations to entice a bite. After talking to another angler who was having success on top, I decided to tie on a size 12 stimulator and cast it into the pocket of water. Right away I started getting hits but just couldn't hook up. It wasn't until I switched to a smaller size 16 Elk Hair caddis that I was able to hook and land some of the beautiful smaller brookies who are freely hitting dry flies. Was the stimulator just too big, or is there a way of fishing larger flies that could have changed my success rate with that pattern? Thanks, and tight lines.
Tom: Well, Ethan, you know, as I've said many times before, you're going to lose fish if they get downstream of you. It's just going to happen because you're pulling straight upstream and the fly is often going to pop out and not much you can do about it. But the only thing you can do is make sure...if you can, if they're not too far below you and you can get an angle on those fish, make sure that you try to use side pressure. You know, pull them off to one side or the other.
Generally, it's going to be toward your bank because you can't really pull them toward the far bank unless it's a little tiny stream and generally the water is going to be slower down below you and so you'll be able to get the fish back upstream a little easier. But I would still try to at all times retain side pressure on the fish because if you try to pull the fish straight upstream and reel them straight upstream or play them straight upstream, there's a good chance that hook can come out and that's about all you can do. You said you couldn't chase them, which is the optimum thing. So, you know, just try to keep some side pressure on them and do the best you can.
You said you're nymphing, also, you know, a beadhead flies, barbless beadhead flies are really easy for a fish to shake. And if you know the fish are going to go downstream, if you can, you might want to try to hook them on a non-beadhead barbless fly because all the concentrated weight in those beadheads makes it really easy for fish to shake it loose. So, if you know what's going to happen, you might try fishing a lightly weighted fly or one with a smaller bead instead of a big heavy bead. That may help.
Regarding those big dry flies, yeah, that's a common thing. You know, some days the fish might actually eat those big dries, it depends on what's on the water and the mood the fish are in and what kind of water and everything. But it sounds to me like the fish were interested in that big dry but they were refusing it and that's why you weren't hooking it. They were splashing at it, they were coming up and taking a look, but last minute, they said, "Not gonna eat that, it's too big." Maybe the fish were too small for the fly or maybe the fly was just too big and that wasn't close to what they were eating, so they were a little suspicious of it and closed their mouth at the last minute.
The fact that you got fish on a size 16 Elk Hair caddis tells me that was the answer. So, I mean, there's some days when that big stimulator might have worked better. The other thing you could do is you could tie on the stimulator and then tie a trailer to the bend of the hook on the stimulator with about couple of feet of tippet material and put your size 16 Elk Hair caddis there. Sometimes, the fish will come up and look at that big stimulator, but they'll then drop back and eat the smaller Elk Hair caddis. The stimulator is kind of attracting them to the smaller fly, so you can try that.
All right, another email. This one from Jim in Saratoga. "Quick question, in recent podcasts. I've heard a few references to cutting the back hook point off of articulated streamers. Is there a specific reason you and others recommend cutting the back hook as opposed to the front? I know there are different schools of thought about how trout eat streamers and bait fish that it's an attack from the head first, etc. And perhaps that's the reason but it seems more logical to keep the back hook to help with short strikes. Thoughts on this?"
Jim, I think it's a toss-up. But first of all, I think that the two hooks on a trout streamer or two hooks on any streamer is a bad idea. It increases the chance that you're going to hook yourself trying to unhook the fish or you're going to hook the fish in another spot, and it increases the handling time, which is not so good for the fish if the fish is hooked in two places. So, I think one hook is a good idea. Which hook do you cut off? I don't know. You know, they say trout or they say fish take bait fish head on. Not so sure that trout do that all the time.
When I watch trout take streamers, they come up behind it because they're following it and they just didn't golf it. So, you know, if it's a big enough fish and the fish really wants the fly, I don't think it matters where the hook is, they're gonna get hooked. I don't see trout swimming around to the side of a streamer and attacking it from the side, you know, because they're chasing it and they're just going to come up behind it. And maybe they short strike. If they short strike, they didn't really want it. You know, if the trout really wants a streamer, it's going to inhale the thing and it doesn't matter where the heck your hook is.
So, I don't know, some streamer patterns have better action leaving the back hook on, some have better action leaving the front hook on. I just think it's cleaner to have the hook in the front and just have a trailing articulation to give the fly action. And you know what? If I get a short strike, the fish really didn't want to fly that much anyway, so I'm not that worried. So, that's a mealy-mouthed answer. I'm sorry, but I don't think there is an absolute right or wrong on this. But I do believe that having two hooks on a streamer is not a good idea.
Here's an email from Eric from Boston. "I often like to go blue lining on small mountain streams across northern New England with a cheap seven-half-foot 4-weight medium action rod. I'd like to upgrade to Superfine 3-weights someday, but I can't help but wonder why it is only available in seven and a half feet. I know you talked about your preference for longer rods when fishing small streams. I can't find a 9-foot or 10-foot slow-action rod anywhere on the market. Wouldn't this combination excel both at making short casts and keeping line off the water? Is there something about this that I don't understand as a non-rod designer? Or is there simply not enough of a market for manufacturers to make such a rod?"
Well, Eric, it sounds like you're talking about fiberglass rods because you mentioned Superfine. And there is a reason that there aren't longer...a couple of reasons why there aren't longer fiberglass rods. One as you correctly assumed, there probably isn't a big market for longer fiberglass rod. But there's a pragmatic reason for that. Fiberglass is a heavier and slower material than graphite. And if you made...you could make a 10-foot 3-weight or a 9-foot 3-weight fiberglass rod, but, A, it would be heavy, really heavy in the hand, and B, it wouldn't be that super accurate because fiberglass, it wobbles more after you cast, it doesn't damp as quickly as graphite, it's a less stiff material.
And a nine-foot 3-weight fiberglass rod, it's going to have a lot of tip rotation after you put the stop into your cast, so it's not going to be that super accurate. It's not as critical in the shorter rods where you don't have the tip revolving and as big of an arc or a circle or whatever, and it works fine there. But, you know, when you get to the heavier rods, they would be tough in a fiberglass rod, longer and heavier rod would be pretty tough.
Now, there are good rods for what you're talking about that are just made of graphite and not fiberglass. And they're in various price points. The 10-foot 3-weight rod in both Clearwater and Recon Series, depending on what price point you want and, you know, if Made in USA is important to you, there's a 10-foot 3-weight. And, you know, people often consider them as Euro nymphing rods, but they make really sweet dry fly rods and nymph rods. And they're fun on small streams, a longer 3-weight rod is really fun and they will handle that really well.
And as you correctly assume, it'll keep most of your line...it'll keep all your line and most of your leader off the water and the high rod will enable you to pull that rod higher. And in the Recon, there's an 8-foot 4-inch, and in the Helios, there's an 8-foot 4-inch and a 10-and-a-half footer in a 3-weight. So, you've got some options for what you want to do, but they're just not going to be available, that I know of, in fiberglass.
Here's an email from Doug in Duluth. "I recently tuned into the Learning Center and your podcast and so glad I did. My question is regarding seeing fish. I started out as a kid spin fishing for bass in golf ponds around my home in Connecticut, so I never had to spot fish in order to catch them. My trusty Daredevil did all the sighting for me. I'm 59 now and for the last 18 years, I devoted my pursuits to fly angling. I consider myself a competent and experienced fly angler and I've had great success doing it.
But the one skill I've never been able to develop is seeing fish. Whether they're rising or sipping or whatever, I'm just terrible about it. It's one of the reasons I'm a little timid about small-stream fishing for spooky trout, I feel like I'm blind casting all the time. Do you have any tips or advice on what to look for?"
Well, Doug, one of the things about sight fishing is...particularly for trout, is it's rare. You know, the light has to be just right and you have to be able to sneak up on the fish without them seeing you. And, boy, those conditions are pretty rare. So, most of the time, you're going to be blind fishing, at least if the fish aren't rising. You know, when I small stream fish, I almost never see the fish. And when I do see them, I've spooked them. And I've noticed that the fish that I catch in small streams are the ones that are like on the far side of a rock or log or in really tumbling water so that they don't see me coming.
If a fish is kind of in a tail of a pool or in the middle of a pool where it can see me, I'm generally going to spook them instead of catching them. And I won't see them until I spook them until they dart away, I don't actually see them in the water. And yeah, you can sneak up on the tail of the pool and be really careful and keep your profile low, but it's tough to do that all day long in a small stream. So, what I do is I just blind fish because if I see the fish, they've probably seen me, and I just place my fly in places where I think the fish are going to be where I can sneak up on them and get close to them.
So, I wouldn't worry about not seeing fish in small streams, it's just not going to happen that often in the kind of small streams that we fish with a fly rod. Regarding seeing rises, you know, your vision doesn't need to be that sharp, but it takes practice and it takes a lot of staring at the water and just looking for strange movements. Sometimes when a fish is rising, all you going to see is a little poke of its snout and very, very little disturbance. Sometimes you'll even just see the foam on the water kind of part.
But it's a thing that requires practice, and I think the more you do it and the more you spend watching the water really carefully from a distance, even carrying a small pair of binoculars with you, you will start to notice those fish rising regardless of how good your vision is. It's learning to look for patterns, it's learning to train your eyes and your brain to work together, and it doesn't always come easy, but it will come with some experience.
John: Good morning, Tom. This is John in West Virginia. I wanted to let you know I really appreciate that last podcast on Southwest Montana, a place near and dear to my heart. Wade did a heck of a job explaining a difficult situation. Well done, Wade. One of the tips I wanted to pass on is I appreciated the fella that talked about using a tippet spool keeper for his Ultra Wire products. I was blessed with a number of bobbins by folks getting out of the fly-tying time hobby and I've used a number of those for my wire. Kind of the same thing, it keeps everything organized, I don't have a lot of spooling going on, and it works just great. Continue the great work that you and Orvis do. Hope to see you at fly fishing shows, bye.
Tom: Well, John, glad you liked that podcast with Wade, I always worry about those podcasts that are not always pleasant to hear about, but glad you appreciate it. That's a good idea using bobbins for a wire, although most people aren't gonna have that many bobbins laying around. But if you do have some extra ones, yeah, it's a good place to park them. There is a chance that the wire in the bobbin might score the inside of the bobbin, so you want to be careful not to put pressure on the side of the bobbin tube when you pull the wire out of there. Probably a ceramic one would be better than just a metal tube bobbin because the ceramic is going to be a little bit harder.
Here's an email from Eric. 'I live in a world-class trout water in the Eastern U.S. We get loads of drift boats and wade anglers and I've seen a lot over the years. Here's some tips for your typical beginner and intermediate angler. One, watch the water. I see so many people walk out to a spot and set up without a clue as to what's going on in the river. No hatches? Let's dry fly fish. Hatches? We're Euro nymphing now. Muddy water? Lets dead drift. It goes on and on. Two, casting rig is not something you should do until you're good at casting a single fly. Start there.
Three, you don't need six false casts to throw a leader 30 feet. Number four. If you are throwing to a rising fish, start a little short to gauge your next cast. Better that than lining a fish on the first cast. Number five. If you don't leave with at least as much trash as you brought with you, don't come back. Number six and finally, enjoy the outdoors. You might realize that catching a fish is not always the biggest part of the experience." Well, thank you, Eric. Those are all great tips and I totally agree with absolutely every one of your tips. Those are great things to remember when you're on a river.
Here's an email from Scott. "I'm hoping you could help answer a couple of questions for me. I plan on fishing in Vermont more starting next year and I noticed the state specifically lists bodies of water with invasive species and pathogens. I haven't run across this before. I cleaned my gear when I travel, but that has been more precautionary. For these places, would it be okay just soaking my boots for a while in vinegar? I prefer not to use bleach for many reasons.
Also, I've noticed that when I tie perfection loops, I get a consistently good knot on thicker materials. On the thinner material, roughly 3x and thinner, I get perfect knots about 50% of the time. The rest I end up with a tag facing down the line, which I know isn't secure. I can't tell what I'm doing differently on the good knots versus the bad ones. Do you have any suggestions?"
So, Scott, first of all, I'm not sure if soaking your boots in vinegar is a good idea. It's probably not a bad idea, but I don't know if it will kill those pathogens. It might. But, you know, as I've said time and time again on the podcast, you need to clean, inspect, and dry your wading gear and do the best you can to try to mitigate the problem. And yes, definitely don't use bleach. Regarding your perfection loop, you know, they are more difficult to tie in thinner material because the two loops that you make tend to flop over against each other and it makes it tough.
But I don't find that a perfection loop is as strong in thinner materials anyway and I don't tie perfection loop in something smaller than 3x. You know, the fact that it's harder to tie in thinner material, but I don't think perfection loop is very strong in thin material. It's fine for leader butts and higher up on the leader where it's heavier, but I would try...although it's not as pretty, I would try triple surgeon's loop in that thinner material or even, if you want to get fancy, a bimini twist, which is what I use when I need to loop in a smaller tip of material. Leave the perfection loop out and use some other loop knot.
Here's an email from Tyler from Oregon. "I wanted to ask a tip to a question...I wanted to add a tip to a question from another listener. On one of the last few podcasts, they asked about getting their partner into fly fishing and you did a fantastic job pointing out how adjusting expectations, shorter trips, and even reference the foraging podcast. I'd like to add some things that I found helpful with getting my wife into this great sport. I found in my personal experience that some bodies of water are easier to find and catch fish than others. I know for me and other diehards for the sport, it's not all about catching or seeing fish.
However, I do feel that for people trying to get into it like my wife, catching or at least seeing a fish take their fly can really make a difference on a trip being more enjoyable. I remember clearly some of my early not successful trips to get her into fly fishing when we went to new areas together when neither of us were getting takes. My wife had asked if there were even fish in this particular lake or stream. So, my new tactic is this. I found knowing the water you're going to fish beforehand can go a long way.
I almost think of it as if I'm acting as a free personal guide for my wife, although I definitely don't know anything near as much...I don't know anything near as much as a real guide or expert. What I've been doing recently is scouting and fishing new bodies of water on my own that have such fish that are easier to fool. In my area, that means small streams with smaller native cutthroats. I know the target species of fish in the water may differ based on areas. While I know there is no guarantee in fly fishing, the last time I took my wife out, we went to a small stream with dry droppers to coastal caddies.
She caught three or four including some on the dry and was able to see a few other takes and fight some additional fish that got off. She had a great time. And when I recently asked if she'd like to go again, she got excited. I feel like I'm making progress. In contrast, I never tried to convince her how great the sport is by asking her to come with me on a trip chasing steelhead as I feel this might be just a fool's errand and potentially undo all the progress I've made chasing caddies with her." Well, thank you, Tyler. That is super advice and people should really pay attention to that if they're trying to get someone into fly fishing. Kids or spouses or friends.
Here's an email from Derek. "So, I've taken up Euro nymphing this past winter and got myself an 11-foot 2-weight rod and reel to go with it. I've watched some YouTube videos and also went to some local fly shops to get some information on it. I'm pretty sure that I'm doing everything right, but every time I bring out the Euro rod, I haven't tapped into the effectiveness that is often described with Euro nymphing. I typically fish rivers like the South Platte and the Arkansas and Colorado. I know I'm getting deep enough and I'm pretty sure I'm using the right patterns. But again, I typically only catch one or two trout in a three-hour trip. I know there isn't enough information to give me any personalized tips, but any information would help. Thanks for everything you do with Orvis."
So, Derek, Euro nymphing can be super effective and yeah, it can put a lot of fish in your net in a day. But like anything else, it takes some practice to get the feel for it. I am an inexperienced Euro nympher and, you know, it just takes time. I went with my friend, Jesse Heller, on the Battenkill the other day, the fishing wasn't that great. But Jesse is an experienced competitive angler and does a lot of Euro nymphing and he was catching fish and I was catching far fewer fish. I've been fishing a lot longer than Jesse, but I'm not as good as he is and, you know, I wasn't confident.
So, you know, don't believe all the stuff that you see in videos and read magazine articles about catching 20 or 30 fish on Euro nymphing because that's done by an experienced angler who knows exactly what water to fish and 20 to 30 fish anyways in a day is a little excessive. So, if I were you, I'd be happy with one or two trout in a three-hour trip. I would keep doing it, you're gonna get better. Watch other people and watch what they do, sometimes going to a finer tippet makes a difference. The fly pattern probably is as important as the weight is, but the fly pattern probably isn't as important as anything else, but keep at it. And again, it's not that easy to learn a new way of fly fishing, so just keep at it.
Here's an email from Matt from Western Mass. "Like many others, I want to start by giving a sincere thank you for all the content that you and Orvis make available. I had no personal guidance when I started fly fishing. With the help of your books, videos, and the podcast, I've developed my skills over the past five years, and I'm now able to encounter fish on most of my outings. I have two questions for you. First, I was recently cleaning and inspecting my fly line when I noticed several spots where it felt like maybe the core was broken but with the sheath or coating of the fly line was not.
It felt like a dent in the line. For reference, this is the Orvis Pro weight 4 or 5-weight and I fish a 9-foot Recon approximately 80 to 90 days out of the year. The line has been on for two years and has served me well so far. I just wanted to get your input as to whether this was something that could cause a decrease in performance and if I should look to replace it. My second question is, do you use a systematic approach when working on a piece of water when you're prospecting? I found myself starting with dries hoppers before swinging wets, then nymphing, and finally working at buggers or streamers. I wasn't sure if this was my OCD or if anyone else practiced something similar. I think of it as working the water in a least disruptive to a most disruptive way."
Well, Matt, I'm not sure what's going on with that fly line. Typically, the core is not going to break before the coating on the outside. Usually, the coating that cracks in a defective line or one that's been hit with insect repellent or caught in a door or something like that. So, I'm not sure what is going on there. What I would do is I would, first of all, straighten the line, I would give it some good pulls because maybe there's just a kink in it where the line was bent over a guide when you store it or something, and then flex the line.
And if when you flex the line, there's not a clean arc but there's kind of a hinge in between those two sections, then yeah, it's going to affect your casting, it's going to give you hinges in your casting. If there's no hinge there and, you know, the coating is intact, then the line is probably okay, but without actually seeing it, I'm not sure. But again, as long as it flexes like the rest of the line in a nice arc, then it's probably going to be okay. Regardless, if you find that the core was broken, that line should last you more than a couple of years, so I would maybe think about sending it back to Orvis and getting it replaced. It sounds like...if the core was broken, it sounds like something might have happened.
Your second question, yes, I do use a systematic approach not in the same pool. In other words, I generally start out with a dry dropper in most times a year, dry and nymph. If that doesn't work, I'll try something else. But I won't try the same water because I've already fished through that water with something and I feel like I've already disturbed the pool. So, maybe if that isn't working, the next pool up, I'll nymph fish or I'll maybe just put a bigger nymph on to my dry dropper or something.
And yeah, finally at the end, if nothing else works, I will try Woolly Buggers or streamers if it's not a super bright, sunny day because you're right, the streamer does disrupt the water more and you want to start with the least disruptive before going to the more obnoxious method that's going to disturb the water a bit more. But know that any type of fishing at all that you're going to be throwing a fly line and leader over a pool is going to be sort of disruptive. So, again, I would move to the next pool before you try a different method to get some fresh fish.
Nick: Hey, John, this is Nick. I'm calling from Massachusetts. I do a fair amount of fly fishing for trout in both Colorado and the mountains of Colorado and in northern New England. My question is about fishing in northern New England and it's about what to do when I'm being unsuccessful on a trout stream. And I guess I've narrowed it down to three options. One is the fish aren't there, they're just in a different part of the river. Or two, the fish are there but they're just not feeding at this time. Or three, they're there and they're feeding, but they're feeding on something that I'm not presenting to them.
And I guess the question really comes down to do I stay in one spot if it looks good and looks fishy, or do I move to a different spot? And if I stay in that one spot, I'm going to have to change...I'm unusually nymph fishing, I should have said, in these situations because I'm not...there are no rising fish, there's no visible signs that fish are there other than it's looking fishy and I know it's a stream that holds fish.
So, I just hate to think of, you know, staying on one spot and fishing over and over again and changing up to different flies, different techniques, different depths, if the fish are just in a different spot. So, how do you know when to move to a different spot versus when to stay in that spot and just keep trying to get creative? Thanks for everything you do and I really appreciate it and love the podcast.
Tom: So, Nick, it could be any one of those things. There could be no fish there, the fish could be there but they're just not feeding, and generally, if they're there but not feeding, they've probably been spooked by your presence or by the last angler that came through. And fish feeding on something else, you know, generally, particularly when they're subsurface fishing, they're not going to be that selective. And maybe changes in size in your flies might work but, you know, if nothing's going on in one particular spot, I would try somewhere else and I'd try a different kind of water.
You know, if you're fishing a slow pool, try some faster water. If you're fishing a deep run, try a shallow or riffle. But it could be all of those things. You know, if you keep pounding the same spot and trying different flies, unless it's fast broken water, you're eventually going to disturb the fish and they're probably going to stop feeding anyway. So, I would move on. I've found that, you know, if I run through a pool with a reasonable fly and I don't catch anything, generally I find that changing fly patterns does not work that well.
I've tried it and I've tested it and, you know, I think that I just disturb the fish too much when I'm fishing a pool unless it's a really big river. And so, I will generally move on to find some fish that haven't been pestered. Sometimes a change in flies will turn the trick and often, particularly when nymph fishing, sometimes going to a lighter tippet may be worth a try and a smaller fly. So, in general, I think that moving on is a better idea to finding some more agreeable fish. All right, that is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Matt Miles about summer smallmouth fishing. So, my guest today is Matt Miles, and Matt is the...was it the 2022 Orvis Endorsed Guide of the Year?
Matt: 2023.
Tom: 2023, so it's this year, Orvis Endorsed Guide of the Year, and congratulations, that's well earned. It means that Matt's customers, his clients have given Orvis a lot of feedback on what a great experience they had. So, congratulations on that, Matt. And you guided the Rocky Mountains before, right?
Matt: I did, that's where I got my start. I used to work with the Blue Quill Angler and Pat Dorsey in Colorado for about six years. I started guiding there at the age of 20. So, lived out there for eight years total and then ended up coming back to my home state.
Tom: And why did you move from Colorado back East?
Matt: Well, the reason I moved in the first place is that I just wanted to see something different. You know, growing up here, I just wanted to see something new. I actually moved out there because of the snow and the snowboard and didn't really think about the fishing part even though I've been a fisherman, you know, since I walk. But when I realized where I was kind of living, I had the Colorado River 10 minutes down the road from the townhouse I lived in and I started fishing more than snowboarding. And that's how I ended up meeting my good friend, Pat Dorsey, which is also, you know, a well-known fishing guide in Colorado because we were seeing each other on stream all the time and I eventually asked him for a job after about my first year living here.
Tom: Cool.
Matt: That's how I got started. So, really, the reason I came back...there's a few reasons, but the biggest reason is I did start to miss home. Yeah, I did miss the diversity in our fisheries. I like having different species, different seasons, different things to do to target. I'm not far from the coast, so I can be in saltwater in about three and a half hours. I have, you know, trout, bass, muskie, all these different things close to me. And with every change in the season, there's kind of something new to do here and it just keeps my attention.
I don't think I have ADHD or anything, but it keeps my attention and it keeps me from feeling burned out. You know? And I think what happened is, you know, I lived in Colorado during the Hayman Fire and that was my last full year living there, and the Hayman Fire, you know, basically burned up the South Platte River and Cheeseman which was kind of our home water and I was having to drive really far every day, an hour and a half to two hours to run guide trips and it really burnt me out. It really made me tired and when I got back in '03 to start the season, because I'd actually come home in the winter to Virginia, the feeling wasn't there.
I just didn't want to do it again, I just didn't want to do all that driving again because I knew it was gonna take time for that river to recover and I didn't feel like doing it again. It was a hard decision. Definitely leaving, you know, everyone at Blue Quill Angler at the time, Jim Cannon, Martha Cannon, and Pat, it's really hard to leave them and move back here. But I look back at it now and I think it was a great decision. I don't have any regrets at all.
Tom: Well, there's something to be said for the diversity of the fisheries that we have here on the East Coast, that's for sure. So, what are you concentrating on now for your target species when you're guiding?
Matt: Right now I'm right in the middle of smallmouth bass, you know, fishing. We pretty much...we target smallmouth bass pretty much anywhere from March into late fall, but summertime is kind of our prime time.
Tom: So, you also do some serious muskie guiding, right?
Matt: Yeah, most of our muskie fishing is just in the fall through all winter months. You know, it is a cold water fish, our summers can be hard on them. They make it, they find creeks and springs and that sort of stuff to survive, but I personally don't target them at all in the summer and most others that target them leave them alone as well because summer can be rough on them. It's just like kind of fishing for trout in too hot of water and it may swim away but it might be the last time it does, so you never know. So, I generally target muskie fall through the winter months.
Tom: Great. So, you have a full year of stuff to do. Do you guide any saltwater fishing? You said you're close to the salt, do you guide any saltwater fishing?
Matt: I do not at the moment, no. I do have a captain's license, but I don't have any...I don't do any trips to saltwater. That's kind of my retirement plan later in life when I get tired of horse. I will move to the coast somewhere and do something like that. But I do enjoy it, I do saltwater fish as much as I can, but I currently don't live close enough to do any guiding, so it's just more for me at the moment.
Tom: So, we're going to talk today about 10 tips for summer smallmouth. You're on the water every day, you're chasing smallmouth every day. So, I promised people that I would give them some tips on catching summer smallmouth and you're the man. So, why don't you start out with number one?
Matt: All right. Well, I jotted them down so I don't really have a real order, but I will start out with gear. You know, what's the right rod, reel, or line. So, that's always a good one to start with. For my fishing, I prefer nine-foot 6-weight or 7-weight. 7-weight is probably the most versatile rod because you can use that for heavy streamers as well as top water flies like poppers. And when I do say 6-weight, that typically mean like the saltwater version of 6-weight, the fighting butt. They can be 9-foot, 10-foot, 9-and-a-half foot. I will say the longer rods, I do like.
I don't fish 10s, but I do have some 9-foot 6-weight rods that...what I like about the extra length because it does help the angler pick up more line off the water after they strip and they don't have to strip as much line. And then because there's a lot of our summer fishing is we're basically...you know, we're just chucking poppers to the bank, and so you don't want to waste time false casting and that sort of thing. We just want to pick up and put it to the next spot. So, that's one reason that that longer rod can be beneficial.
The next thing I see a lot of people go wrong with as far as line, you know, I've had plenty of anglers over the years show up with a trout fishing line on a 6-weight in our heat, our summer heat, and they're just not designed for it and they're going to be sticky, they're not going to load the rod quickly, and they're just not going to shoot through the guides as well. So, I definitely recommend either, you know, a bass-specific line or, you know, warm water line or even a tropic line.
And even a line that has an aggressive taper is a good line, something you can just kind of pick up and just make one catch and shoot all your line back out to the fish is a great fly line in my opinion. So, keep that in mind. If you're fishing hot water, temperatures above 65, 70 degrees up, get the right lines for the job, you know? And the way the fly lines are nowadays is so good, if you have the right line, you can have, you know, a terrible rod and it's still cast great. So, that's a big importance to me is the right fly line.
Tom: Hey, Matt, before you go on, a lot of people probably don't have the time or the patience to sort through all the different fly lines in either the Orvis or the Scientific Anglers offering. So, do you want to name a couple of specific lines that you'd recommend that have that aggressive front taper and the tropic?
Matt: Yeah, I mean, I'll be straight-up honest with you. My favorite fly line for bass is the Scientific Anglers' Mastery Bass. That's hands down been my favorite line. I can't remember, what's the Orvis line that has that really...the Bank Shot.
Tom: The Bank Shot. Yep, yep.
Matt: Yeah, the Bank Shot, I'm not positive they offer that in a tropic nowadays. I'm not sure, I had some of the Bank Shots that are more moderate to cold water, which are great. You know, that's a fast-loading line. But if I had to pick one, I would do the Mastery Bass line for sure. I know they got some newer stuff out, I haven't played with it, but the smooth Mastery Bass is my favorite.
Tom: Okay, good enough.
Matt: For floating line anyway.
Tom: Okay. Yep.
Matt: And then another mistake I see people make is the type of leader they choose. A lot of people will show up...what I mean by that is they'll show up with a 9-foot 1x, 3x, 2x. Well, the problem is that small diameter is going to twist so bad with, say, a popping bug on. It's going to twist in the air, it's going to...so, every time it lands, it's going to coil up, it's going to weaken your leader. So, if you do hook a big fish, you're going to have a weaker leader than you should. So, I always stick with the leaders that go by pound test, not diameter.
Companies like Scientific Anglers make the bass-specific one which I think is an 8-foot leader, it comes in many different weights. I typically use 16, and I usually keep, you know, 10, 12-pound leader material, usually the regular nylon like SA stuff, or sometimes I use Maxima. But I like that stiffer leader, you get less with less twist out of them. And the fish really aren't...that lines, they're not really line-shot fish, so you get away with a lot [inaudible 01:02:56]. But those are the number one things, you know, that I think are important as far as the gear goes. And the beauty thing with smallmouth is you don't need a whole lot of stuff. You don't need a lot of flies and stuff like that. So, that's a part of it.
Next, I think the next topic would be, you know, some casting...some of the types of different casts that you should know or understand. So, a lot of times, in my situation, fishing from the boat, is we're fishing towards the banks. And so, we have overhanging trees, we want to get that slot to the shade lines or in the shade. So, practicing the sidearm. You know, spot-on casting is important.
And also, just minimizing your cast and kind of like I was talking about with that fly line, being able to pick it up and lay it back down without false casting and stuff is nice, it's just keeping you in the water longer, keeping your fly in the water longer, that sort of thing. And then, with that said, if you're in the low and clear water conditions, really try to minimize your casting there. Try not to put that line over those fish as fast as possible because they will spook out. So, that's my biggest, you know, tip with real low clear waters is make as fewest cast as possible to the fish.
Tom: You know, I have never once in my life heard a guide say, "You need to make more false casts." Never, ever, ever.
Matt: That is true. People have a tendency to always make one too many and that's when it starts. that's what I see the most of is they make one too many. You know, false casting is not bad but just don't do it too much. And then, you know, other than the casting, my next tip would be...and I say this a lot to my clients, especially fishing in this time of year, and I'll get to kind of what I mean.
But when you make a cast, you know...and we're all guilty of this, when we make the cast towards the target, whether it's a fish or a rock or whatever where we're hoping the fish will be, is if our fly doesn't get exactly where we need it to be, we have a tendency to pick it right back up. Well, the problem was smallmouth is a smallmouth is not a lazy fish. If he's hungry, he will move far for food. So, if he sees your fly smack the water, he starts to come towards it, you rip the fly out of the water to recast it because your brain says, "Oh, I didn't put it where I wanted it," you just spook that fish.
So, a big tip of mine is finish your cast. Leave it. Bad casts catch fish too, just leave it. Give it five seconds or so. If nothing comes and you don't see anything, then make the cast you want to make. But I've seen a lot of flies get ripped away from nice fish because of, you know, that brain telling you, "Oh, that wasn't where I wanted it, I need to pick it right back up." And if you think about it, you're splashing water a bunch when you're doing that.
So, you know, I always try to put myself in the fish's, I guess, perspective. You know, if I'm looking up at a slick water surface and I see something smack the water, that's gonna get my attention. But all of a sudden, if that splash happens two or three more times, "Oh, something's up with that." So, that's what I mean by just finish your cast and then, you know, let it ride and then make another cast later.
Tom: Okay, great. That's a great tip. Great tip.
Matt: As far as...you know, let's jump into this one next. This is a tip on, you know, fishing topwater in my neck of the woods. And when I say that is I've met a lot of anglers that have fished in more states for smallmouth than I have and when I meet someone that's fished such and such area, you know, I like to ask questions like how the fish react. What I've learned over the years with my smallmouth, the older they get, the smarter they get, okay? That's what all animals should do, they should...fish, man, people, whatever should be smarter.
So, I've never seen a bug...and when I say bug, I just mean a natural bug fall on the water or, in our case, a popping bug, I've never seen a bug hit the water and then start blooping. I've never seen a bug hit the water and start getting sideways across the current. If a bug hits the water whether it's still alive or dead, it is stuck in the current speed or the current line that it fell in, right? It's dead drift, it's floating along dead. Now, it could be twitching but it's not actually getting across the surface like if I was pulling my popper, right?
Well, I watched enough big smallmouths...and when I mean big smallmouths, I mean, you know, 8 years and plus, those fish are gonna be 8, 9, 10 depending on the length and, you know, years old. I've watched plenty of them not eating because it moved when they were staring at it. When they started to lift and look at it, they'd just put the brakes on and put their head right back down. So, what I do with my clients and what I teach my clients when I'm fishing summer smallmouth on the surface is we splat the fly, you know, we hit the fly on the surface and we leave it for five seconds at least.
That five seconds I believe gives that bigger fish time to swim up to it, lift, and look. Now, our water, a lot of time where we fish, is pretty clear so you can see them do it unless they're in like a shade line. So, that gives that fish time to stare at the fly and make up his mind. And most of the time, if he thinks it's a bug, he's gonna eat it, and that's how I catch my big smallmouth every year is on the surface fly. Because a streamer, they can chase it, they can look at it, they can bump it, they got all the time in the world to look at it, right? But if you make that fish think, "Okay, this thing just fell out of a tree, this is an easy meal, it's not running from me, it's not doing anything weird," they'll just eat it. And that's how I catch most of my big fish is I did it with my poppers.
Now, after that five seconds, if I don't see a fish, I will twitch it and I just tell people to twitch. Twitch or pop is just to let the fish know...that didn't see it lands, you know, know it's there. You know, it's just basically, "Okay, nothing came in that first five seconds, my fly may have drifted 10 feet, let's go ahead and give it a little movement or a little noise or a pop." So, the fish that didn't notice it will notice it now. And if I don't see a fish within, say, a few seconds, I'm ready to cast into a new spot.
And that's generally how I fish in the summer months. Once I get to this time of year, which we're in it now where we have damsels and dragons, you got the Dobsonfly which is the adult hellgrammite, we get summer annual cicadas. You know, ants, beetles, whatever. I've caught many...well, I shouldn't say many but I can think of a handful of 20-inch fish that I've caught that had a carpenter ant in its mouth after I landed it. Now, whether he ate that before my bug or ate it with my bug, I can't say that.
But I've seen small flies in big fishes' mouths like June bugs and stuff like that, you know? There's all kinds of things for fish to feed on this time of year, especially when it's hot and they're lazy and they want to be in the shade and away from, you know, the bright sun. There's a lot of stuff going on under those tree branches.
Tom: Do you ever fish something like a smaller ant, instead of a popper?
Matt: Not an ant, but I have this stuff closer to like a Chernobyl, you know, something that lands soft, and that's awesome too. So, I think what gets the fish's attention, obviously, is what I call the splat when that fly smacks the water. that fly goes under and up. So, it dimples the water and that's what gets that smallmouth's attention. Because you have to remember, smallmouth primarily feed by sight. Now, he can feel but he's not a scent fish, if he's gonna eat, he bite, or feeling a vibration. So, that's what gets its attention.
But I have seen cases where it's really low and clear, that splat will actually spook them. So, if you have that happening on a lighter fly like a Mr. Wiggley or Chernobyl...you know, it doesn't have to be small, it can still be, you know, size 8, 6, something like that, and that can trick them in those low and clear conditions. If the heavier bug that splats water like a boogle bug or a bug tied or made with cork scares them, then you can go to that lighter presentation.
Tom: Okay.
Matt: Gosh, I just had a brain fart. There was something I was gonna add to that and I don't even remember but maybe it'll come to me later.
Tom: Okay.
Matt: Well, since we talked about how I fished topwater at this time of year, let's just talk about, you know, streamers if you have to. That's kind of the way I operated, I only fish streamers this time of year if I have to. And what I mean by that is they're not eating on top. So, the first thing I'll say usually, in my experience, if I'm not catching them on the surface and I have good conditions, water clarity is fine, all that stuff, it usually means they're not feeding and a lot of times streamer fishing is not going to help you that much. So, that's one thing to keep in mind.
I can usually tell when the fish's behavior is off from normal. I pay attention to what they're doing, whether they're lifting, whether I'm seeing them. So, if I don't see any fish behavior, then I know typically something's off. And so, the only way I might be able to catch them is going underneath. So, if I have to fish streamer this time of year, I'm going to concentrate that effort in faster water where fish have less time to think about it, if that makes sense, right? The food is faster, they just don't have as much time to look at it.
Now, that's a good tip right there is just key in on faster water. If you're having a hard time catching fish elsewhere, just key in on faster water. Now, in that situation where you're in the long or slower water and you feel like you have to fish something underneath like a streamer, generally, baitfish, unless they're just...well, if they're fired up, what I mean by that if the smallmouths are hungry, they're gonna heat just about anything. But if they're not fired up, they're being real lazy, they don't want to move, you generally need to fish something that'll sink right down to their face.
And that's when I think fishing with a fly rod becomes harder, you know, when you need to touch the bottom. So, you know, you have different options there. One of my favorite flies that Orvis is the TeQueely. It has a super slow fall, which bass love a slow sink rate fly. I can fish that thing dead drift, I can let it get to the bottom, I can strip it like a crayfish, that sort of thing. So, very versatile flies, so if I had fish that aren't...you know, they're being fussy, that's a good fly pattern for that.
Other fly patterns would be like your heavier crayfish, you know, something with a heavier eye that's gonna sink down quick. I've seen days where fish won't touch it unless it touches the bottom. Like, they refuse to lift on food. Those are obviously your toughest days. So, have, you know, a little mixed bag when it comes to streamers. I always have baitfish, which don't work as much in the summer months unless I'm in fast water. Hellgrammite patterns are great, you know, crayfish patterns, and then like I said, the TeQueely is one of my favorites. It's the goofiest-looking thing in the world, but they eat it.
But just pay attention to...if you can, pay attention to the water and how the fish are reacting to kind of tell you, "Okay, do I need to slow it down? Do I need to speed it up? Do I need to let it touch the bottom?" So, it's pretty easy in my mind to do, if I fish a run and I keep it up higher, you know, mid-water column, nothing comes up and eats it, "All right, I'm gonna let it sink some more." If nothing comes up and eat it, 'All right, I'm gonna let it sink to the bottom." And then when he grabs it, that tells you right there they're not willing to move, you know, for the food.
So, you just got to be, you know, versatile and pay attention to what's going on and you can figure it out. But when a smallmouth is hungry and happy, you know, it's what I call stupid fishing. You know, you can put anything out there and they'll eat it. But when they're fussy, they can be really hard to catch.
Tom: Now, when you're fishing a big nymph like a hellgrammite or, you know, a crayfish or something like that, do you ever use an indicator? How do you get those down deep?
Matt: You know, I have thought about it, but I have resisted it. Usually, what I do is I'm gonna fish a little bit longer leader, maybe a 9 to 10-foot leader, especially with a floating line, which is generally all I'm using this time of year. And I'll watch the end of my fly line and I kind of...it's almost kind of like Euro nymphing I guess you could say. I'm trying to watch the end of my fly line as an indicator but I'm also kind of going by feel. So, if I feel a thump, obviously, I notice that.
I think the easiest way to fish them is, you know, casting across a current or across a deeper trough, you know, letting it sink like maybe with a nymph. And then I might bump it, you know, just a little bit because if you ever want to crayfish go across the bottom, they only move a few inches, you know, six inches. I mean, they're not going crazy.
So, I'll just use a couple of little strips and kind of let that current swing it for me, but not swing it so hard like, say, swinging for steelhead, but I'll let it swing and just try to keep contact with it that way. And when I feel it stop or I see that fly line dip under the water, then I'm gonna set the hook. So, it's more...I guess the closest thing to it would be more like Euro nymphing except I'm not trying to beat the drift but I am trying to, you know, feel that stop with it.
Tom: Now, Matt, you talked a little bit about slow days when...and bass are certainly moody creatures when they're just not...things aren't happening. Have you ever correlated that to the time of day, water temperature, or weather conditions? I don't know if you use the solunar tables. Have you ever determined why some days are just off?
Matt: Well, the biggest thing I see is barometer pressure, you know, barometric pressure. And if you were to turn around and look at me, if you were on the front of my boat, you'd see me on a slow day checking my phone a bunch because I'm looking at barometric pressure. But I see...well, I shouldn't say I do that a bunch, but I do check it because I'm curious and I'm trying to learn why they're doing it. But what I see is...I can tell you what they liked the most. They like consistent weather. They like weather that...they like the steady barometer, that is great. Up and down is gonna create mood swings.
Really high and rising is kind of those days where...we were talking about letting it hit the bottom, you know, letting that fly get to the bottom because they don't want to move. So, that's kind of what you're gonna see in that. Like, I had a trip...actually, it was the last trip I ran. I got rained out over the past few days, we had a lot of rain. But the last trip I had was an extremely slow morning. I mean, nothing was happening. I think we caught a couple of fish. And I checked my weather app and looked at the barometer and it said, "High and rising."
Well, I knew we had a chance of thunderstorm coming that afternoon, so I just...you know, being a guide, you know, I'm like, "Oh, hey, you know, we got a good chance this afternoon, they're gonna turn on I think." And sure enough, that pressure changed with those storms coming closer and they went crazy. You know, they said, "Unbelievable, we had many doubles that afternoon."
So, that's a good example of pressure change and how they react to it. So, approaching storms can put them down but right before, it can make them feed, obviously. Of course, as a guide, I can't stay away every day but, you know, days that...if I was a guide that was retired and can fish just about any time, I wouldn't bother going out after a front. You know, the day after a front is typically slow fishing no matter what you fish for.
Tom: Yeah, it seems to be that way no matter what.
Matt: Yeah, no matter what. But one thing we have that...it hasn't started yet, thankfully. But as the summer progresses and we get into hurricane season, one thing I noticed is when we get these really big systems down in Florida coming up, my fishing will be very hard for about, I'd say, two to three days out. So, two to three days prior to that storm arriving, I generally have some very hard fishing, I have to hit them in the face with it on the bottom generally. But the day of, you know, when it's going to get there, they'll go crazy, you know, they'll feed hard.
But I think because there's hurricanes...I'm not a weatherman by any means, nor do I want to be, but I think with the hurricanes that it's just such a hard pressure change, because of those storms are so large, it affects fish thousands of miles away. At least that's what I see anyways, that's what I see. So, I generally don't like them coming because I'm like, "Oh, no, I'm gonna have a couple of hard days here," you know, prior to it. But I think barometer pressure is the number one thing that changes their moods.
Tom: Okay.
Matt: Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, we're fishermen, we fish when we can, so we don't always get the best days, unfortunately.
Tom: How about, like, a steady rain? You know, a day-long rain? How does that affect them?
Matt: I don't mind a light rain. You know, I don't like hard rain. I don't have real good success in, like, really heavy rain. So, I guess you could say if it was gonna rain, say, half an inch all day, that's not bad. I'm generally going to be fishing for streamers in that kind of water because, obviously, the raindrops are affecting the surface more. So, streamer fishing would be typically your best bet in that scenario. And I will tell you, this is a little...I don't know if we should call it a tip, but this is what I see.
So, people ask me all the time, "Would you rather have sunny days or cloudy days?" For the way I like to fish, I would rather have sunnier days. And when I say sunny...partly cloudy is perfect, but when I say sunny, I would rather it be sunny than complete cloud cover because a smallmouth in lower light is more comfortable to move, meaning he will cruise around and look for food. In sunny days, I believe they will hold in a place and wait for it. So, what's easier to find, a fish swimming around or a fish holding in a spot? That's kind of the way I look at it.
And, you know, we have a lot of predatory birds. I mean, I'm sure you guys do too. We have ospreys, eagles, you know, everything. So, if you're a bass, you wouldn't want to sit in the middle of a river in a bright sun in two, three feet of water with an osprey flying around. So, generally, when it's sunny like that, by midday, those fish are going to kind of go to their favorite ledges, you know, of the bank and getting the shade, you know, they found spots to hold and they got everything they need right there.
They got, you know, bugs falling off the treetops, you got crayfish in the rocks, you got minnows trying to hide, you know, you got everything for a bass to live in those places. Now, that being said, that's only for rivers that have a good bank structure. Like I have fish in rivers that have very little depth on the banks, so you're not going to have fish holding on those banks. The rivers that have more depth banks...and when I say depth, I mean a foot and a half and deeper, those kinds of things. So, it does vary depending on the river you're on.
You know, if you have a river that is very scoured from high flows and the banks are very shallow, then your fish really don't have any choice but to find structure mid-river like rocks and ledges and bogs and that sort of thing. But where I live, my fisheries have good banks, you know, good rocky banks, shady banks, and stuff for the fish to sit in and feel comfortable. But that's why I would prefer a sunny day, though, is because they'll hold this time of year, it makes them way more dependable on finding them.
But that being said, if pressure changes, they're flying off, they're going off the bank, they're going to get deeper if they can, you know, to try to get more comfortable. I always tell people, it's kind of like...I'm not a fish, so I don't know exactly how they feel but I kind of think it's like Thanksgiving dinner, you've already had like three plates and you can't move, you're so uncomfortable, you know, you're so bloated from eating too much. I kind of think that's how smallmouth feels. He's like, "Man, I just want to lay on the couch, I don't want to move." So, they'll move off the banks and also, I believe if the fish is on the bank, he's a feeding fish, the fish looking to eat.
Tom: Only reason he'd be there, right? To eat.
Matt: Yeah, I mean, like I said, he's got plenty of food there, he's got protection there, and that sort of thing. So, you know, as far as like another tip or as far as what I look for, as far as like where to cast or the type of structure I'm looking for, first and foremost, always remember smallmouth like edges, they like hard edges. They like banks, big rocks, ledge rocks, stuff like that. They like something to hold next to them. So, that's first. The next thing I like is a hard bottom, all right? I don't find a lot of fish on a sandy bottom, it's very rare. Usually, if I find a fish on a sandy bottom, he's a cruising fish. He's caught up on it, "I'm going to cruise through to see if I see anything I like and then I'm leaving." So, hard bottom is key.
I also like diversity at the bottom. And what I mean by that is different size rocks or different types of rocks, not the same size pebbles or whatever. If you have a bottom that has mediums to small to large, you know, diversity, that is appealing to a fish, you know, having different types of structure or different size rocks to hold on is appealing to fish. It's just kind of like animals, animals like diversity. You know, they don't like big open woods, they want thick edges and different stuff. So, fish are not much different.
Tom: Okay.
Matt: And they will hold on...like, we get a lot of grass this time of year, they will hold against grass or in the grass. I've seen them actually sitting in the grass too. So, that's not always a bad thing to see the grass, it holds the bugs and holds the bait and that sort of things and those fish can hide in it as well. Now, as far as locating what's the best, like, place to locate big fish, what I look for...now, I've caught plenty of big smallmouth in probably a foot and a half of water. So, don't think that's too skinny because it's not too skinny. But what I do look for areas and if I'm fishing something I've never seen, what I'm going to look for is banks that have a decent depth, a foot and a half or deeper, that roll off towards deeper water, okay?
So, generally, if you're going to find big smallmouths, they're going to be not very far from deeper water. And when I mean deep, I don't mean 10 feet, I just mean 4 feet because they gotta have somewhere to retreat. They lived this long, so they're smart, "You know, I need a retreat place." So, generally, if I'm going to find the fish, they're going to be pulled up on banks or flats that roll off to deeper water so they can escape if they need to or feel comfortable.
Tom: Okay, okay. Got it.
Matt: Let's see. Now, this is...let me throw this one in here.
Tom: This is gonna be good.
Matt: I tell all my clients about this, so I might as well, you know, speak out on this podcast about it. What do you do when a fly hits a limb? All right? You made this perfect cast, but the loop was too tall and the fly went into a tree.
Tom: You swear.
Matt: Yeah, you can swear. Or what I see what most people do, they will jerk it as hard as they can immediately.
Tom: Yeah.
Matt: Well, generally what happens is it sticks, right? It gets stuck in the tree, right?
Tom: Yeah.
Matt: So, my biggest tip for that is don't pull it, just gently wiggle the rod and see if it'll fall out. And if that doesn't work, try wiggling a little bit harder. But generally, if you don't yank on the fly when it hits a tree, it will fall out if you just gently shake and try not to get it out by yanking. Yanking obviously means strength, right? Using strength. So, just a little wiggle will do. A lot of times, your fly will fall right into the right place and you're good to go. So, that's a big key...or a big thing that I see a lot and I like to help people with is don't pull on the fly, don't snag it worse, just try to get it out by just wiggling it first.
Tom: That's a great tip.
Matt: Yeah. And typically too...like, we talked about...I'll talk about this real quick as far as structure. Like, if you see, like, a new tree, and what I mean by a new tree is a tree that's felled with leaves all over it in the river, they generally don't like hanging around that with the leaves decaying and stuff. Carp like it, you know, but the bass don't. So, if I'm going to target trees or logs, they're usually going to be dead old logs that have been there for a long time. Bass will sit up against them and use it as an edge.
So, don't waste your time on those freshly fallen trees with leaves all over the place, you know, leaves that are still stuck on the tree. Yeah, that's just a little thing but I generally will not find a smallmouth around it. But the dead stuff is okay to fish. And let's see. As far as...I'm gonna key back in on this, on the fishing streamers real quick. When you're fishing streamer, don't be scared to change your retrieval. You know, if the fish doesn't react to the one way you're stripping it, you know, if they don't react after, you know, how many casts, try something different.
The fish will...you know, if you can see the fish...you got to get polarized glasses so you can see the fish lift and that sort of thing, they'll show you what they like, right? So, if a real fast retrieve is not working, then maybe go to more of a medium pace, you know, stop-fly-retrieve, that sort of thing. And then kind of as I talked about, if that doesn't work, then, you know, you can sink it down lower and that sort of thing. So, just change your retrieves up and try different things to find what triggers the fish. I will say most of the time even fishing with a streamer, the bass are always going to hit it on the pulse. That's pretty much, you know, a guarantee.
And one thing I like to do, this is a little tip here, if you're retrieving and you see a bass starts chasing it, they'll run up to it real hard, stop, and then you yank it away from them, they'll run up to it and stop. Or if you strip it really fast and they're chasing it, just stop it right in front of their face. And if they don't inhale it, then yank it away from them really hard in order to create that predatory response, you know, like a cat and mouse, you know, 'I gotta grab it."
So, that's a good tip is don't be afraid to stop right in front of them because sometimes they'll be like...they'll just stare at it and just suck it right in. And then if they don't, just yank it away from them and try to, you know, create a predatory reaction. And then as far as the size of streamers, it doesn't really matter. You know, our bigger streamers, we can get away with bigger streamers in spring and fall, that's when they'll feed on bigger bait a lot of times. I'm not saying they won't hit one in the summer, but that's generally when I fish bigger flies.
But in summertime, you know, they eat a lot of different size foods, so you don't necessarily have to have, you know, the four-inch long streamer in the summertime, they might eat a two-inch long Minnow pattern or whatever. So, there's a lot of different baitfish. And it also may depend on where you live. Where I live, I have a lot of different size baits, and what I see a lot of this time of year is real small bait. So, don't be afraid to fish smaller stuff, big fish will eat it as well.
Tom: So, bring your trout streamer. If I'm smallmouth fishing, I always grab my trout streamer box.
Matt: There was a time...there was a trip a couple of years ago, I wish I had a size 12 Parachute Adams. I watched a line of fish, I don't even know what it was. It might have been...I'm trying to think what kind of mayfly it might have been, but it was during May. There's a brown...gosh, I don't know what it was, but it was around the size 12, 14. And with so many of them, I watched the bass just sip them in a bubble line and I watched a very large bass doing it. And we were able to trick...the younger fish was, "Whatever," you know, pop or whatever, but that one big one, [crosstalk 01:40:00] feeding in and eating all those mayflies. So, there has been a time when I wanted a trout fly and I didn't have it.
Tom: Yeah. It doesn't hurt to throw a couple of trout dry flies in your box I guess either then.
Matt: Yeah, yeah. You know, I keep some carp flies in my boat box just in case too. If I'm having a hard day and I see some carp playing and somebody wants to try, you know, we can do that as well. It's not a bad idea to have a lot of different stuff. And that being said, another tip. If you see carp, if you see carp feeding or cruising, keep your eye on him because a lot of times there's a big smallmouth off his tail.
Tom: Oh, yeah, following him?
Matt: Yeah, it's kind of like [inaudible 01:40:53]. They will follow those big carps, especially if they're feeding, because they'll kick out...because carp, you know, they're pretty much blind, you know? And they'll kick out crayfish and that smallmouth will just run in and grab it.
Tom: And do you know what I would do if I saw that?
Matt: You would chase the carp?
Tom: I'd say, "The hell with the bass.'
Matt: Yeah, I'd say I wish...these river carp aren't easy.
Tom: No, no.
Matt: Lake carp are a lot easier to catch. These river carp, it's hard to get close to them and it's hard not to let them know you're there.
Tom: Yeah, they're pretty tough.
Matt: Well, that, and, you know, you got to sink it in front of the space so quick and when you have current, you know, you have that drag that's gonna pull the fly away and that's part of the problem, you know? So, if you can find them in the right kind of place where there's low, low current pulling, then it's a little bit easier. But other than that, that's pretty much all I have written down as far as, you know, tips for summer smallmouth fishing.
Tom: Well, those are some solid tips. Thank you. Thank you.
Matt: Well, I appreciate you having me.
Tom: Yeah, well, it's always good talking to you, Matt. And yeah, I want to thank you for sharing all your secrets with us. And tell us where people can get ahold of you if they want to book a trip or ask you a question.
Matt: Sure. I have a website, it's mattmilesflyfishing.com. Also, I'm on social media, Instagram, it's Matt Miles Fly Fishing, Facebook is...I have a Facebook page, Matt Miles Fly Fishing, and then also, you know, my normal one is...I think it's Matt Miles 58, I think, it's on Facebook. And then my phone number is 434-238-2720. And if you go to my website as well, all that info is there.
And you can also send me an email through my website, there's a contact form on there. And it also explains kind of my seasons on my website, my seasons, what I'm doing, you know, what season I'm fishing for this and that sort of thing too. And I try to keep up...and I blog a little bit on there, so I try to keep up with it. It's more of like a little fishing report but, you know, I try to keep up with it about once every two weeks. So, I'll try to do a new blog post as well.
Tom: And also, you can find Matt in the Orvis website too in the endorsed guides in Virginia.
Matt: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Tom: Lots of ways. And you're a brave man to give people your phone number, Matt. You never know who's gonna call.
Matt: Hey, it's already out there anyway. You know, I get enough spam calls as it is, so I've gotten used to it.
Tom: Well, you won't get any spam calls from this podcast. This is a good group that you won't get any spam calls. All right, Matt. Well, I'll let you go. I want to thank you again for your time and hope to talk to you soon.
Matt: All right, Tom. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me.
Tom: Okay, Matt. Bye-bye.
Matt: Take care. Bye-bye.
Tom: Thanks for listening to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenberg. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or comment? Send it to us at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. in the body of an email or as a voice attachment. You can find more free fishing tips at howtoflyfish.orvis.com.