Secrets of Carp Fishing Around Spawning Time, with Rowan Lytle
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast. This is your host Tom Rosenbauer, and my guest this week is Rowan Lytle. I've been wanting to fish with Rowan. He guides down in Connecticut for things like carp, and striped bass, and smallmouth bass, and [00:00:30.517] bowfin, you know, nontrout species. And a friend of mine's been fishing with him for a while.
And I had a great trip, and I was really impressed with Rowan's knowledge of carp fishing. So I wanted him to share some of his secrets with us, mainly around the spawn period, the pre-spawn, the spawning period, and the post-spawn, which can be frustrating times to chase carp. And he's got a [00:01:00.324] lot of good tips there.
Rowan has also caught 202 different species of fish on the fly, and he's not even 30 years old yet, so he's really racking them up. And some of the species that he's caught are gonna surprise you. And I won't spoil the surprise. I'll let you listen to the podcast and find out what some of these more unusual species are. But anyways hope you enjoy [00:01:30.384] it.
And before we start the Fly Box, a couple of things. One is I just put studs in my PRO Hybrid boots. So the PRO Hybrid wading boots are a boot with a felt sole insert, and then that sticky Michelin rubber around the outside of the boot. And these things are great because you have the [00:02:00.237] security of felt on slippery rocks yet when you're walking on a trail or when you're walking up a muddy bank, you still have the grip of a rubber tread. And I have found them to be incredibly comfortable and secure on rivers.
And what I recently did was I put studs in them. And I'm telling you it makes me feel like I'm 20 years younger [00:02:30.000] wading in these boots. I just fished a bat and kill this morning in a spot that has a lot of round rocks, and they're often slippery. And I'm always struggling with wading this stretch of river, particularly in early season high water. And it was like a different place. It was like wading in a different place. You know, you can stud these felt soles. You download a stud pattern from the Orvis website, but that'll tell you where to put the studs. And then you put the Orvis PosiGrip Studs [00:03:00.792] in and I'm telling you these things have made a world of difference in my wading.
Now, you can't wear 'em in a raft and can't wear 'em in most driftboats, so it's something mainly for the wade angler. I mean, you can sometimes wear studs in driftboats or rafts if they have a metal plate on them. But it is not a good idea to wear 'em around rafts and driftboats. Anyways, for the wading angler, studying [00:03:30.093] these hybrid soles is just a game changer.
And also just announced a couple of my hosted trips for next year. These are two trips that I did last year and just had a fantastic time. Both of 'em are in Chile, in the Coyhaique area of Chile. One is at Magic Waters Lodge, one of my favorite places in the world. February 8th through 15th, 2025. And then I'm gonna stay for another week [00:04:00.173] at Cinco Rios Lodge, February 15th to the 22nd where you fish the Coyhaique area for three days. And then you go into a place called Valley of the Moon, which is almost entirely spring creek fishing with big fish in little tiny streams. And the chance to see some Andean condors very close up. There's a very special trip, a little morning half-day trip that's included with that [00:04:30.108] trip. And it's pretty cool, pretty impressive experience.
Anyways, if you're interested in either one of these, they're listed on the Orvis website in the travel area, and they do fill up quickly. I expect these will fill up pretty quickly, so they're just announced. If you're interested in fishing with me in Chile, sign up right now. All right. Let's go on to the fly [00:05:00.096] box. The Fly Box is where you ask questions or you share tips and I answer 'em or read your tips on the air, and you can send your question, comment, tip, whatever to me at
The first one's from Roger. First, a suggestion. I have been hearing a [00:05:30.442] lot about the keeper ring on rods for flies. Here's my suggestion. As you've said, wrap your leader around the foot of your reel and hook the fly to a guide, but then use silicone cable ties to secure the line to the rod. They are cheap and easy to carry. Now, for my question, when using a UV lamp to cure resin when fly tying, how far from the fly should you hold it? I've seen some tires hold it right up next to the fly while the other hold it 10 to 12 inches away. What distance is best? [00:06:00.311]
Well, Roger, that's a great tip, and I also have, in the Orvis Learning Center, a tip for wrapping your line around the stripping guide to hold the line in place. But even when I do this, branches when walking through the woods often grab the line that's hanging from the rod and putting a silicone cable tie or two to the rod will help prevent that. So that's a great idea. Thank you for that tip. [00:06:30.309]
Regarding your UV lamp, you know, it really depends. There are different epoxies with I'm sure different resins in them. And it depends on the light that you have and whether your batteries are fresh or not. So, I don't really have a good answer for you. I would just test it and see which works better. I hold it really close to the fly, and I make four or five [00:07:00.098] rotations, making sure that I hit every area. I've seen some people also hold it further away, but again, I think it depends on the intensity of the light you have and also the resins used. So I can't give you any, you know, absolute rule of thumb for doing that. Try it both ways.
Here's an email from Max. I'd like to take a second and thank you for being such a stalwart of this community and posit a question as well as an observation. My first question [00:07:30.128] goes into matching the hatch of sorts. There's a small pond by my house that gets regularly stocked with rainbows, bass, sunfish, catfish, etc. While not the most exciting or challenging fishery in the world, it sure is convenient to practice different setups and have a beer after work with friends. Sometimes I'll be able to outfish what I'll refer to as the power bait crowd, but sometimes they outfish me. I'm wondering, and I promise this is serious, not facetious, if it's one of those days [00:08:00.113] when power bait is catching them left and right, are they even looking at other food sources? I'll typically fish a simi seal leech, rainbow warrior, chironomid, or soft hackle under some sort of dry. This is an unfortunate byproduct of living in a place where angling culture isn't really appreciated and catch-and-release just isn't in most people's vocabulary. Should I just tie on a SharkTrace mop fly and give up on myself?
Now, for my observation, [00:08:30.532] I hate to beat this dead horse any more than it has been in recent months, but this has to do with wading safety. If any listeners like me have a waterproof backpack that is doing its job, there will be some amount of buoyancy inherent in it. What this means for me is when I slip and fall into the creek because I'm too broke to replace those boots that have long given up their traction, there's an unexpected source of buoyancy on my back pulling up. I'm not quite sure how helpful or harmful it is, but it is something [00:09:00.436] to be aware of. It's certainly not certified by the Coast Guard as a PFD. Maybe just a reminder to cinch those backpack straps down and keep the chest, waist clipped in.
Well, Max, yeah, I'm not sure about the waterproof backpack. I have noticed that it does offer some buoyancy, although it's on your back. You'd have to make sure that you kick to make sure that you keep your head up and it doesn't push you down into the water, but it shouldn't where it is. So I [00:09:30.680] think, yeah, that will give you some added buoyancy if you do fall in. Regarding the power bait issue, you know, I think you should be just happy that you sometimes outfish the power bait people and not agonize over the days when you don't, because power bait's pretty deadly stuff. And, you know, often and probably most often has an advantage over us with our fly rods. I think the days when your flies work better, [00:10:00.267] probably days when the fish are eating smaller prey. You know, the days when power bait works better, the thing you might wanna do is to not fish up your nymph or your leech under a dry fly but actually cast out and strip a streamer of some sort. When the power bait's working, the fish might be a little bit more aggressive and looking for a bigger meal, so I would try that.
Trevor: Hey, Tom. I had a question about [00:10:30.439] beginner fly fishing setups. My name is Trevor. I'm from Missoula, Montana, fishing in Western Montana. I recently met a guy who is getting into fly fishing, has never fished before, and he was asking me about what to do about buying a new outfit. And my perspective is buying things individually the rod, the reel, and especially the fly line. I tend to put a little bit more emphasis on [00:11:00.089] the fly line and the leader construction as well as the flies as compared to the reel and the rod. But when I was looking up options and pricing those outfits, especially like the Orvis, I think it's the Encounter outfit, is just such a screaming deal. And I found it hard to try to convince him and myself why you would not opt for that compared to, you know, the little bit pricier individual options. [00:11:30.288] So, just wanted your thoughts on what you recommend for people that are getting into the sport.
I also was kind of wondering about the line weight and rod weight. My original kit was a 9'5" weight, you know, traditional. But that rod broke, and I was using a 9'6" weight for a long time, and I really liked that. It's just because the... Like, an all-encompassing rod for streamer fishing and, [00:12:00.220] you know, heavier nymph setups but also dries. So just wanted your overall thoughts on outfits, whether they should buy just a pre-made kit and upgrade as they go, or does it make sense to kind of bring things together and buy a fancier fly line? And then as far as, yeah, the rod weight and line weight. As I said, Western Montana, fishing both small rivers and large rivers. Appreciate it. [00:12:30.123]
Tom: Well, Trevor, you know, it's always a question of economy, and your wallet, and what you really need for your fishing. That streamline outfit, it's a good rod, it's a good reel. You know, the reel doesn't have the greatest or smoothest of drags, but it's perfectly acceptable for about 90% of the troutfishing, and pan fishing, and bass fishing that people do. The line that comes with that [00:13:00.697] entry-level outfit is a little bit shorter, I believe, than a standard line, but it's not gonna float or shoot as well as a premium line. You really get what you pay for in fly line. So, you know, when you're buying the upper end outfit, like the Helios or the Recon outfit, you can be confident of getting just what you need for any given situation for that rod. [00:13:30.340]
Yeah, the thing to probably upgrade in most cases if you buy an outfit is a fly line, and you may just want a different type of fly line. If you're fishing in salt water, you might look harder at getting a reel with a stronger drag. But, you know, outfits are a great way to go and you do save a little bit when you buy the outfit. Regarding either a 9'6" weight or 9'5" weight in the [00:14:00.437] Missoula area, that's really a toss up. If you're fishing more earlier in the season and you're throwing more nymphs and streamers, then probably 6" weight would be better, a 5" weight would be better for mid-summer fishing when you're fishing dry flies and smaller nymphs and things. But either one is gonna serve you just fine throughout the season in any of those rivers around Missoula. [00:14:30.414]
Here's an email from Robert. I hope this email finds you well. I've been an avid listener of the podcast for some time now and thoroughly enjoy the content you provide. However, I've noticed there hasn't been much information about fly fishing for catfish or species I'm particularly interested in. I currently reside in Rochester, New York and fish a lot of time fishing the Genesee River in the city. While I've had success with smallmouth bass. I'm intrigued by the idea of targeting catfish on a fly rod. [00:15:00.119] I understand they're bottom feeders and primarily hunt by smell. Are there any specific flies that could effectively attract catfish? Also, I'm curious about whether adding scent to the fly would be considered cheating in fly fishing circles. I love the challenge of pursuing different species on a fly rod, and I believe catfish could provide a unique experience. Any tips or advice you could offer would be greatly appreciated.
Well, Robert, first of all, yeah, catfish do feed on the bottom, [00:15:30.354] but they feed in all parts of the water column. I have actually seen catfish come to the surface to eat mayflies and also to eat mulberries, and I've seen 'em chase bait. So they're not just bottom feeders, and they don't just feed by scent. You know, if the water's clear enough, you can target 'em with a fly rod, even if it's not terribly clear. I've caught lots and lots of particularly channel catfish on flies, and they'll take basically [00:16:00.307] the same things, the same streamers that your smallmouth bass would. Maybe downsize them a little bit, but, you know, a size 6" or an 8" streamer with a little bit of flash in it or black works quite well for channel cats. And, yeah, I don't think you need to put scent on there because they will track down and attack a moving fly. Whether scent is considered cheating or not, [00:16:30.154] that's gonna be up to you. Most people think it's cheating, but I don't think it makes that much difference. I've actually experimented with scent on flies for trout and for striped bass, and I haven't really seen any difference in scent versus no scent, so I don't think it's something to to worry about.
Now, if you are chasing brown or yellow bullhead, which is a, you know, smaller catfish, those are gonna be more likely to be feeding closer to the [00:17:00.615] bottom, but you should be able to catch them on a large nymph or a crayfish imitation, you know, just something like a size 10 [inaudible 00:17:08.442] might work for bullheads. But again, channel cats can be quite aggressive. And if you can find them, you can generally catch 'em on a fly rod.
Here's an email from Sean from Colorado. Hey, Tom, thanks for the podcast. I'm tying flies for some upcoming trips and have a few unrelated questions. First, do you fish different pupa [00:17:30.413] emerger patterns for cased versus uncased caddis? Second, I have the Spectrablend variety pack, and I'm not so sure exactly how to use it. How is it different from SLF Blend or Caddis Life Cycle Dubbing? I have used it for the trailing shuck, I have stacked it and used it for a bubble on Sparkle Pupa and as dubbing to replace the chenille on Pat's Rubber Legs, but I don't have much confidence in it yet. Maybe learning a little bit about it will help. Thanks for all your help.
Well, [00:18:00.063] Sean, first of all, I don't know how you're ever gonna tell whether whether an emerging caddis at any given time is coming from a casemaker or from a free-living caddis. You might be able to tell, I never paid that much attention to it, but most caddis pupae, they're pretty similar regardless of whether they come from a casemaker or from a free-living caddis. They're mostly kind of [00:18:30.065] drab sometimes with little green, or yellow, or orange in 'em, but mostly they're kind of drab and about the same shape. So I would not worry so much about it. I'd worry about getting the size of the pupa right and not worry so much about the exact color.
Regarding your Spectrablend variety pack, you know, it's a great dubbing. There are many, many, many, many kinds of dubbings on the market, [00:19:00.280] and some offer more flash than others. Some are finer and better for dry flies. That Spectrablend is a good, kind of, mix of both fine and a little bit coarser dubbing. And, you know, I would just use it... It should work fine for you. I use it all the time. And honestly, unless I want a really sparkly look [00:19:30.170] in my nymphs or my streamers, I'll usually use just a standard dubbing. And, you know, if I need something real sparkly, I'll use Ice Dub. But, you know, there are lots and lots of blends. And you can also blend your own. You can blend two dubbings together. So I don't know what to tell you other than it's good dubbing, it works, and I would keep using it until you find a need for something else.
Here's an email from [00:20:00.628] Elliot. I have two questions for you. How do certain holes on streams change volume of feeding fish over the seasons? I fish spring creeks and rivers in the Driftless region of Minnesota and find different spots on rivers working well in some seasons and others not holding any fish in other seasons. My second question is regarding how to fish in lakes. I commonly find myself fishing streamers in lakes for trout but shy away from trying any other fly due to not knowing tactics for fishing lakes with dry flies and nymphs. [00:20:30.454] Is there any different tactics or should I fish them as I would in a stream or river?
Elliot, regarding your first question, yes, absolutely. Fish will move around with the seasons, and they move around for a couple of reasons. One is that some of the places that they'll be in early season get too shallow. In later season, expose 'em to predators. So they'll often move not too far, [00:21:00.462] but they might move from one side of the river to another or from the tail of a pool to the head of a pool. And sometimes they'll move further than that, but they'll generally stay within the same general area, but they'll move to areas with a little deeper water.
The second reason they move is that wherever they were getting food in let's say April or May, the currents may change. As the water drops, the main tongue of the current may change. [00:21:30.507] And the current or the bubble line, if you look at the bubble line in the water, that's what carries all the food. That's where all the food is being carried. The bubbles indicate that that's where most of the drift is going. So you'll find that that bubble line might change from one side of the creek to another. And, yes, so you do need to fish differently in say July than you would in May because fish will move around [00:22:00.019] a bit.
Regarding fishing in lakes, yeah, you do need different methods for fishing lakes with dry flies and nymphs. Generally, you move the nymph, and you move it sometimes quickly but usually slowly with very, very slow strips because you really can't dead drift a nymph in a lake unless there's fish cruising around. And then you can fish it under [00:22:30.063] indicator and just let it sit there, but it's kind of boring. And, you know, generally moving the nymph a little bit will catch the attention of the fish,
And fishing dry flies in a lake, you know, there's two ways of doing it. One is to look for a feeding fish on the surface and try to estimate. They usually have a pattern that they follow. Try to estimate where the fish is gonna rise next, and place your fly [00:23:00.285] in front of that fish. Now, unlike rivers, sometimes twitching a dry fly works better in a lake just to catch the attention of the fish. You don't wanna strip it, like, bad but you wanna sometimes occasionally give your dry fly just a little twitch to catch their attention and then let it rest. If you have more questions about fishing stillwater, fishing lakes for trout, there is a great series of videos on the Orvis Learning Center that I did with [00:23:30.109] Phil Rowley that will tell you lots of more sophisticated ways of fishing nymphs and dries in lakes.
Richard: Hey, Tom, this is Richard from Seattle. I thought I would take you up on your invitation to send you a voice memo since you hadn't received any and wanted to comment on the wonderful show that you put on January 28th with Lindsay Kocka that included many valuable [00:24:00.303] suggestions, including the use of a wading staff. I won't pile on to the apparently many listeners who've pounced on you for your resistance and acknowledge that this is probably just our society's problem with ageism, but I did want to mention that I was impressed when you asked her whether you should use the staff upstream or downstream that you both hesitated and then concluded it might be better downstream.
That is not [00:24:30.061] my experience. I've been using a wading staff most of the five or six years that I've been fishing because I'm in my mid 70s. And I have had the experience many times where I was impressed that, when I use it upstream, if I lose my balance or it slips on the bottom, I have an ability to kinda lurch forward upstream and have a moment to reestablish my footing. Whereas [00:25:00.060] if it were downstream, I am convinced that if the staff slipped on the bottom or you lost your balance, having lost that third point of contact with the staff on the bottom, you'd be floating downstream immediately because you have very little opportunity to recover your balance with the current pushing you downstream.
So I would like to suggest that you experiment with that when you start using your newly purchased wading staff. My bet [00:25:30.446] it will be that you'll find that using it upstream, particularly when you're crossing the river, will allow you a bit more capacity to recover if you start to lose your balance by leaning forward and kind of lurching up rather than finding yourself immediately falling downstream. Thanks again for everything. I really have learned a lot over the years, and I think we all recognize what a valuable resource you are.
Tom: Well, Richard, [00:26:00.442] that's a great tip, and it makes all the sense in the world having the wading staff upstream so that you can pull into it. Yeah. And I can see if you were gonna pull into the wading staff, it was downstream, you might pull yourself right over the top of it and have trouble regaining your balance. So thank you very much for that tip. Sounds like a very logical way to use a wading staff, and I'm gonna try it the next time I use [00:26:30.235] my staff.
Here's an email from Dan. I recently booked a guide for an upcoming trip to the Florida Keys. I am from Southwest Ohio and not very experienced with saltwater fly fishing. Talking to my guide, he suggested the need for a 12 weight rod in case we have the opportunity to chase tarpon. He was very understanding that I don't have this setup and, of course, told me he had plenty of nice gear I could use on the trip. However, I really don't like to borrow equipment, and [00:27:00.205] probably more importantly, I really don't need much of a reason to build another fly setup I don't have.
I came across what looked in the pictures to be an older but never used Orvis Graphite 12 weight. I purchased it, and when it arrived, it looked a lot older than I anticipated. I emailed Orvis customer service the details, and they helped me track down the manufacturer year and even sent me the ad for the fly rod from 1979. [00:27:30.572] This makes the rod 45 years old, couple of years older than myself. The question is, should I fish this rod or should it be kept in its original splendor? I'm by no means an antique collector, and I use everything I have to its breaking point. Does the graphite ever break down? Is there a chance that the rod is too old to fish? I would hate to lose a fish of a lifetime because I used an outdated rod.
Well, Dan, graphite rods don't really lose [00:28:00.385] anything over time unless they were really, really fished hard. They're extremely durable, and the fibers don't break down. So that rod should be... If it wasn't used much, it should be as good as the day it left the factory. However, you should know that a 12 weight rod from 1979 [00:28:30.209] is not gonna be nearly as good a casting tool or as strong a rod as a modern 12 weight. We've learned a lot in making rods stronger, particularly in the 10 through 12 weights over the years. And, you know, every time Orvis comes out with a new iteration of a fly rod, it's going to be stronger. We don't come out with a new rod unless it has a measurable performance [00:29:00.785] improvement.
So you're talking about 40-some years of improvements between a current rod and that rod. And, you know, the early graphite rods, that's a fairly early graphite rod, were a lot more brittle than the rods today. Again, it hasn't lost anything, but it's not gonna be as good as a modern rod. So there's a chance it'll break with a really big tarpon. [00:29:30.646] I would say a sub 100-pound tarpon, you're probably gonna be fine with that rod. But if you do get into a really, really big fish there, you know, and you get it close to the boat, there's a chance that that rod could break because, again, they just weren't as good then as they are today. So whether you fish it or not, that's up to you. Your guide may take one look at it and say, "Eh, I don't want you to fish in that rod because you might break it." So [00:30:00.711] that's gonna be up to you.
Here's an email from Cody. Really enjoyed your podcast and videos. One of my favorite things to do is listen to them while I fish. Most of what I know about fly fishing, I learned from your content over the years. I have two questions. One is about weedless flies into what extent they're weedless. I fish at rocky shore on my local lake where the bass like to hide under the heavy grass along the bank. I do my best to keep my fly out of there as I lose a lot of flies in the [00:30:30.499] thicket. As soon as it's too close to the grass, I try to recast quickly to avoid hanging up.
Sometimes as my fly snags on the rocks leading down to the water, it becomes too late. The funny thing is, over half the time, my fly ends up in the grass and instead of being hung up, there's a fish on the end. So should I be casting into the grass? Does the weed guard actually work in thick vegetation or is it the risk of losing all my flies and spooking the fish when I get hung up too great? [00:31:00.224] Also, are those expensive rod holders for the rod of your vehicle safe for your rods? I'd like to eventually buy a new Helios, but I wonder if my rod holder in my vehicle is safe or not for such an investment. Feel free to leave that last question out if talking about products is a conflict.
No, Cody, talking about products is not a conflict at all. Regarding weedless flies, yeah, particularly with largemouth bass, [00:31:30.140] they're typically gonna be in the weeds or right on the edge of the weeds. And, you know, if you're gonna be consistently successful, you need to have your fly in the weeds and slithering through the weeds and dropping off the edge of a weed bed. And weed guards do help somewhat. Certain kind of weeds they're better for, certain kind of weeds, they're not. But, you know, a weed guard when you're fishing in heavy brush or in weeds is gonna be [00:32:00.949] help. It will still get hung up occasionally, and you could miss a few strikes here and there because weed guards sometimes, you know, the fish can't get a good hook or you can't get a good hook in the fish with a weed guard. But if it's properly designed weed guard, it will protect that point a little bit. And as you state, you know, the disturbance of hooking your fly in the weeds and trying to yank it out, it's gonna spook any [00:32:30.151] bass around there.
So, I think in your situation you are better off with flies with weed guards, especially since, as you say, you're getting those fish right on the edge of the vegetation. So, yeah, I would use it and try it out and see how well it works. Regarding the rod holders, most of them are very, very reliable, and you didn't say whether it was a magnetic type or a suction type, but what I would do is [00:33:00.181] I'd put it on my car and I'd put something like, you know, a broom handle or something that's not dangerous on the rod rack and drive around and take some corners pretty fast and do it in the rain, and see if it holds. But as I said, I've trusted those exterior rod racks for [00:33:30.442] many years. And I think they work just fine. And it depends on your vehicle too. It depends on the material that your vehicle's made out of and where you're putting the rod rack. So I would just experiment and test it first before you put an expensive Helios on there.
Here's an email from Kevin and Danny from Kincaid Lake, Kentucky. First, thank you for the seemingly endless wealth of knowledge that you so freely [00:34:00.509] provide to those of us who need it. Your approach provides a glowing example for me to offer my daughter Danny in contrast to an increasingly self-serving society. It is much needed, refreshing, and important in more ways than you take credit for. I have one question, if you would feel inclined to indulge me.
As noted above, my daughter and I are fortunately able to reside on a lake. I'm noticing a few may fly adults. Not in numbers that I would call a hatch but enough I would consider them a food [00:34:30.510] source for our gilled little friends. If the adults are a size 12 and I were interested in fishing the corresponding nymph, should I tie them in a size 12 or would you tie a size or more smaller? Oddly enough, we tend to do better with subsurface presentations.
Well, Kevin and Danny, yeah, mainly the adult that comes out of the the nymph shuck, it's gonna be about the same size [00:35:00.091] as the nymph. And so I sometimes find that for subsurface, you can get away with just a little bit bigger nymph. You know, maybe sometimes the adult is wriggling out of the nymph shuck, and that gives you an effective length of a little bit longer fly. So I think, you know, if you see adults in size 12 hatching lake, you can probably get away with a size 10 nymph. And if that doesn't work, go to a 12. But I think you can get away [00:35:30.040] with slightly larger nymph when the fish are feeding on those mayfly subsurface.
Here's an email from David from Georgia. I have a question about the various types of epoxy resins. Not brands exactly, but the thickness or viscosity that seemed to be semi-universal across brands, thick, flow, thin, etc. While some brands have their own descriptions, they all tend to convey similar levels of thickness. Does each level of [00:36:00.368] thickness have a different purpose or function? When is it appropriate to use each? I tie both fresh and salt water patterns, and I wonder if I need an expansive or specialized collection, or just a bottle of thin, medium, and thick, and clear would suffice.
Tying videos are all over the place in which thickness they use and when and never seem to give much reasoning as to why they use a particular resin thickness over another. I'm wondering if you could sort me out, gimme some guidance [00:36:30.619] as to which tying situations match which thickness of resin. Thanks for taking the time to answer all of our questions. I learn something new every podcast,
David, here's what I do. I keep a thin and a standard or medium viscosity, I guess, on my fly tying bench and a thick, and I don't think I've ever used the thick, so I should probably put [00:37:00.259] that away. I don't see much reason for the thick variety. And here's how I use 'em. If I'm using the resin in somewhere where I wanted to penetrate into the materials to hold something to the hook, then I will use the thin. So situations that would be like, when you finish off a fly coating the head, I will use the thin or the flow.[00:37:30.079] You know, the flow is really lowest viscosity of those, and it's almost like head cement. If I'm stiffening a wing or something like that, I will use the thin.
If I'm coating a body or I'm trying to coat a wing case so that I want a little bump, that doesn't flow as much. It'll pretty much sit where you want it to go. So for wing cases and for coating [00:38:00.191] bigger bodies on perdigons and things like that, I will use the medium viscosity or the thin viscosity. It really depends. You know, I honestly think you could do nearly everything with the medium or normal viscosity UV resin. And if you need a little bit thicker coat, you can just put two coats on, or you can use the thin and use two coats. You know, [00:38:30.097] sometimes you want a shiny head on a streamer or a salt water fly, then you can use two coats. But I wouldn't worry too much about the various viscosities. I think that we're really splitting hairs there, and you don't need a whole bunch of them.
Here's an email from Ryan. Hi, Tom. We're having a dreary wintery mix out here in Colorado Springs this weekend. So I'm spending the early morning with coffee and tying flies. I'm trying to tie size 20 Griffith's Gnats. And let me tell you, [00:39:00.294] I'm not getting my money's worth out of these hackles. I'm using Metz Size 20 Select Packs, and for thread, I'm using 18/0 Nano silk. The strung peacock herl are doing just fine. I just can't keep from breaking the hackle stem either as I'm wrapping it around the hook or as I'm trying to keep tension when I'm tying it off. Now, I know it's finicky and fragile tying this small, but do you have any tips for keeping tension but not breaking the stem?
Ryan, there's a couple of [00:39:30.590] things. You didn't say whether your hackle is breaking at the tip where you're holding it with the hackle pliers or it's breaking in the middle. If it's breaking at the tip, sometimes hackle pliers have a little sharp edge, and they're a little bit too sharp, and they can cut the small hackles. One of the things to do would just be to put a little piece of electrical tape or, you know, this [00:40:00.569] rubber stuff that you can dip tools in to coat them. You can just coat one side of the hackle pliers or wrap it with a piece of, you know, electrical tape. That'll lessen that sharpness a little bit and maybe give you a little bit of grip on the hackle pliers.
If the hackle is breaking in the middle of the stem, it shouldn't, when you're tying size 20s. Obviously, you've probably [00:40:30.548] tried to use less pressure when you're winding it, and that doesn't seem to work. So, you know, hackle's a natural material, and some hackles are just more brittle than others. I think that you probably got a bunch of hackle that... That particular chicken had hackles that were a little more fragile. And I think if you [00:41:00.291] try a different cape or a different saddle or a different pack of feathers, you're probably not gonna have the same problem.
Erin: Hi, Tom. My name's Erin, and I'm here with my daughter. And she has a couple of questions that she would like to ask you.
Grace: Hi, my name is Grace and I live in Central Texas and I'm 11 years old. My dad started fly fishing a few years ago, and I've been fly fishing some over the past year also. We mostly fish with bass and bluegill. You've [00:41:30.693] answered a few questions for my dad before. I was hoping that you'd answer a few for me too. First, my dad and I think it would be fun to start tying our own flies. What fly patterns would you recommend that we first start learning with? My next question is, what are your favorite bass and bluegill flies? Thank you, Mr. Rosenbauer. Hope to hear an answer on the next podcast.
Tom: So, Grace, my very favorite pattern [00:42:00.232] to start with is the wooly bugger. It's not a hard fly to tie. It's not the absolute easiest fly to tie in the world, but it's relatively easy and you can tie them in nearly any color and size you want, and they will catch almost any fish that swims. So if you're gonna tie wooly buggers, my two favorite colors are black for a dark one and tan [00:42:30.828] for a lighter colored one. You can just make the whole fly black or the whole fly tan, marabou, chenille and your hackle. You can experiment with different color hackles. That's a cool thing about wooly buggers is you can add a little flash to 'em if you want, or you can leave it off. You could keep 'em simple. You can put a beadhead on 'em or a cone head to make 'em sink a little bit faster. But it's hard to beat the woolly bugger and its variations for a fly pattern [00:43:00.573] to start with. That's what most classes start with. A lot of classes start with the woolly bugger. And again, it's a great fish catcher. It's tough to improve on in the woolly bugger. So that's a one I would start with.
My favorite bass and bluegill flies. Well, actually a black wooly bugger for bass is one of my favorite subsurface flies, both for smallmouth and largemouth bass. So, there's your subsurface fly. [00:43:30.136] For a surface fly, for largemouth and smallmouth, I love the chartreuse Sneaky Pete. That's a popper. It's actually a slider, it doesn't pop. It just slides across the water. It has a pointed head on it. That's one of my very favorites.
And then for bluegill flies, couple of things. One is a little tiny popper or a sponge bug, just the smallest popper you can get. Usually, I think they're about a size 12. [00:44:00.077] And then one of the best flies for bluegill's subsurface is just a standard hairs ear nymph in a size 10 or 12 with a beadhead on it. That's a great fly for when bluegills aren't coming to the top for those poppers. So those are my favorites, at least to start with. You can experiment with lots of other different things, but I would start there and see how it goes. All right. That is the Fly Box for this [00:44:30.100] week. Let's go talk to Rowan about carp and other unusual fish.
Well, my guest today is Rowan Lytle. And Rowan is a young guide in Connecticut, who I had the pleasure of fishing with a few weeks ago. Those of you who listen to the podcast are not surprised that we went carp fishing because you know I love carp fishing and we had [00:45:00.311] some of the most spectacular carp fishing I have ever had. Big fish sight fishing, even in kind of lousy conditions, Rowan. You know, it was raining and cloudy most of the time, the water was a little dirty, but you proved to me that carp can be targeted in some fairly dirty stuff and then we found clear water as well. But I wanna talk today [00:45:30.267] about pre-spawn, and spawning carp, and post-spawn carp and how to target them. You up for that?
Rowan: Absolutely.
Tom: All right. So take it away. Let's talk about... We fish pre-spawn carp, and I had never thought of fishing carp in colder water. You know, I always considered them a summer target when, you know, the water got too warm for trout and other things. [00:46:00.294] But you've convinced me that, boy, they can be caught pretty early in the season. So let's talk about that and then talk about what to do around spawning time and then after spawning.
Rowan: Excellent. Yeah. Down here in Southern New England, we have all of these backwater systems, and lakes, and rivers that will start to warm up faster than the main bodies of water. And the carp will move into those early in the season and get fairly active [00:46:30.228] sometimes even in late winter.
Tom: Yeah, they're active in a wider range of temperatures than I thought. Aren't they?
Rowan: Definitely, definitely. It's not uncommon that we get little warm spells right through the dead of winter even where it'll get up into the 50s or the low 60s for a few days. And some shallow mudflats, the water temperature will start to creep up into the 40s, and carp will make their way into those areas and [00:47:00.655] start to feed even if just for brief windows. And when those windows happen, the fishing can get pretty good. And once you work into spring, the fish are really looking to bulk up before they spawn. Any fish wants to have, you know, a good amount of energy reserve before it exerts all that energy to make the next generation. So they really put on the feed bag before they're gonna get into the spawn too.
Tom: So what's [00:47:30.046] kind of the minimum temperature that you think that carp are gonna be active? Do you have any idea?
Rowan: The lowest temperature of carp that I know of was right around 40, 41 degrees Fahrenheit. That was the surface temperature of the water on the flat I was fishing.
Tom: Wow. So what would you advise people in the early season to look for to find these fish?
Rowan: Look for fairly shallow water with a mud [00:48:00.466] or just a dark bottom. On sunny days, those areas are gonna get the most radiant heat from the sun and warm up the fastest. And the water temperature will increase pretty dramatically faster than it does in deeper areas or areas with a light colored bottom or a fair amount of current.
So look for sheltered places that are fairly shallow, say less than four feet and ideally with a dark bottom and especially ideally if they're [00:48:30.297] facing south. Early in the season, south facing banks or shorelines are gonna get more sun exposure than north facing banks and shorelines. So you'll wanna focus on those areas because they warm up earlier in the day, they get warmer throughout the day, and the fish are more likely to gravitate to those places.
Tom: Okay. And what do you look for on these places? Because you need feeding carp, right? You don't want [00:49:00.409] traveling carp because traveling carp are less likely to eat. So what do you look for on these flats?
Rowan: Fairly commonly when I get to a flat, I'll know if there's fish feeding in the general area because the water near them will be murkier. The fish that are active and working an area will stir it up pretty significantly. So you'll often see color change. You'll see muddier spots in the areas [00:49:30.407] where the carp are feeding. And if the conditions aren't so good but fish have been feeding in an area recently, there's often pock marks on the bottom from them feeding.
So some days I may not find feeding fish, but I'll find those pockmarks parts of a flat, or a mudflat, or a bank where they've definitely visibly been feeding. I'll know that even though I may not have found them that day, that they've been there recently and that I can probably go back in [00:50:00.295] maybe slightly better, warmer conditions and find fish there again.
Tom: Mm-hmm, okay. And we found an area, when we were down there fishing, that was really murked up. I mean, it was a huge area of mud, and we still were able to target fish. Tell people how they can target fish in an area that's mudded up.
Rowan: Yeah. It can definitely be tricky. I mean, a lot of the stereotypical carp fishing involves around seeing the whole fish, [00:50:30.210] and that's just not gonna happen when there's mud so stirred up that there's maybe only a few inches of visibility. But there's often concentrated areas of mud right where a fish is currently feeding. It'll be even murkier than the surroundings, and they'll stir up bubbles from the bottom. When a carp is feeding, it's rooting in the bottom and all the decaying detritus that's down there creates all these little bubbles of nitrogen and pockets of gas [00:51:00.519] in the bottom. and the carp stir that up and they'll rise to the surface as the fish is feeding. And if the fish is moving a bit, you can kind of get a direction of travel following these lines of bubbles, which usually for carp, it looks like two separate streams or a significant plume, never really one single stream of bubbles coming up. If you see that, it's typically just natural at coming out of the bottom. And turtles can make bubbles too, and that's usually a big [00:51:30.261] patch that's moving faster. And if you cast at too many of those, you'll eventually end up hooking a giant snapping turtle. Really fun.
Tom: I take it you've been there?
Rowan: I have been.
Tom: Yeah, they will eat a fly.
Rowan: They will. And if they don't eat it, they'll often run right into it anyway and get hooked.
Tom: How about presentation to those fish? You know, where do [00:52:00.358] you put your fly? How fast do you move it and so on?
Rowan: I try to judge which direction the fish is facing and place it ahead of and just to one side or the other of the bubbles that are coming to the surface, usually within 6 inches of where I'm seeing those bubbles. Now that varies a little. If there's some form of current, you might need to lead them by a bit more because the bubbles get carried down [00:52:30.180] current and won't be directly over top of the fish's head. But usually I'm trying to get that fly within 6 inches of those bubbles. And if I move it at all, it's just gonna be a slow, slow trickle.
Now, a lot of the time, as you experienced, I'm targeting these carps from very, very close, not casting particularly far. So when I move the fly, it's often either just barely stripping like an inch or two at most really sluggishly [00:53:00.252] or kind of trickling the rod back, raising the rod tip ever so slowly. So when I move the fly, barely at all. It's the subtlest slowest motion, and it's more just to have some tension on it than to actually move the fly in a way that the carp will get interested in it. It's just to kind of maintain tension to potentially feel a strike because you're not particularly likely to see a strike happen. Every once in a while the line will jump, but oftentimes you'll feel [00:53:30.173] a little tick if you're slowly bringing that rod back.
Tom: Yeah. And where are the carp eating the fly?
Rowan: They typically eat it within about an inch or two of it reaching the bottom or just after it's hit the bottom in my experience. My carp down here in this fishery don't chase things much, and they'll usually see the fly as it's falling and eat it right before it gets to the bottom or just after it's gotten there.[00:54:00.353]
Tom: Okay. Do you have any special patterns that you like for these muddier conditions?
Rowan: I like things that have a lot of contrast. Oftentimes, this is the one situation where fairly bright colored flies will work well for carp. It's not uncommon that I'll get fish on fairly gaudy chartreuse flies, especially big chartreuse mop flies.
Tom: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Rowan: I also like dark black [00:54:30.376] patterns. I think those stand out a bit better against the turbidity than say a pale-colored fly would. So I stick with either very gaudy bright flies and orange chartreuse or bright, bright pink or solid black. And generally a fairly slow sink rate too. I use bead chain eyes or even flies with just a couple of wraps of lead wire. And they'll just have a real [00:55:00.095] slow sink rate. So they're likely be in that fish's field of view down there for a bit longer before they kind of disappear into all the junk on the bottom.
Tom: Yeah. And these fish are gonna be shallow early in the season, so you don't wanna plunk right down on the bottom.
Rowan: Yeah, exactly. Often, you know, less than two feet of water.
Tom: Mm-hmm, okay. And you sometimes see tails wagging, right? And sometimes we'll see the tail wagging in the murk. [00:55:30.226]
Rowan: Absolutely. Oftentimes you'll see the tail, you know, down in the water waving around or sort of a swirl or boil on the surface from the tail wagging. And occasionally you get the classic fully tailing fish. Its tail's right out, you know, showing at the surface and good and visible. We don't always get that luxury, but it does certainly happen.
Tom: Yeah. All right. So eventually they're gonna spawn and anyone who's chased [00:56:00.272] spawning carp and you can tell when they're spawning because there'd be rolling and jumping and chasing each other can be difficult because they're not interested in eating at that time. What's the water temperature range when you see them start to spawn?
Rowan: I'll typically start to see fish getting into the spawning behavior when the water temperature's getting up into the 60s, even just below 60, 62, 63. [00:56:30.361] That's often when they really start to start to wanna look to spawn.
Tom: So let's say I'm in a spot. I see a bunch of carp rolling and splashing. And I know they're spawning, but I really want to catch one. What do you do? Because I know you can catch 'em during those times. I know you do. So, what do you do? What do you look for?
Rowan: I will typically look just around the [00:57:00.274] periphery of the area where the very visible spawning is happening. Oftentimes, there's fish that will just kind of take a break from it and just wander off 10, 15, 20 feet away from the school that's spawning and start feeding. That's a pretty common thing. Even if it's some distance, sometimes just an adjacent flat to a flat where a bunch of carp are spawning, maybe it's 100 yards or so away, there will be carp there. And all of those fish are feeding [00:57:30.352] instead of spawning. So just adjacent areas within the relative vicinity of where all that spawning activity is going on, there's typically gonna be some carp that are not engaged in that and instead they're feeding or they spawn for a bit and they decided that they need to get some energy and they're feeding for that reason.
Tom: So they can be caught during spawning season.
Rowan: Absolutely, absolutely.
Tom: Mm-hmm, okay.
Rowan: And there's some unique situations in certain bodies of water where [00:58:00.297] some percentage of the carp will actually not only focus on feeding instead of spawning, they'll feed very focused on the eggs of the carp that are actively spawning. It's not a particularly logical move you would think for a species to focus on eating the eggs of its own kind, but it absolutely happens.
I've encountered that mostly in lakes with really, really dense populations, like lots and lots of carp. But when you encounter that, [00:58:30.072] what you'll often see is a group of fish spawning along an area right tight to the bank and those fish will kind of move through and do their thing. And then right behind them, another group of fish will come in.
So what to look for there is just look for a group of fish very visibly spawning. They're often really loud when they're spawning on lake shoreline, just thrashing violently and really churning the water up. And then when that kind of quiets down, that's when you might have a group of carp coming in and just [00:59:00.331] vacuuming all the eggs that the other fish have deposited.
Tom: And what fly do you use for that?
Rowan: In my experience, those fish don't tend to be that picky but smaller is certainly better. I've done well with sucker spawn, I've done well with tannin yellow mop flies, but I've caught them on virtually everything during that sort of feeding. In fact, I encountered it by accident once and didn't have much in the way of real focused carp [00:59:30.897] flies, and I ended up catching a whole bunch on a size 18 Frenchy. So you never really know. I don't think they're that picky typically when they're in that feeding pattern. But it doesn't hurt to have some eggy type of flies since they're focused on eggs anyway.
Tom: Okay. Now what about cruising fish? You know, occasionally you can catch ones that are moving. What do you look for there and how do you [01:00:00.052] present the fly to them?
Rowan: Absolutely. The slower they're going, the more likely they are to take. If they're really cooking along at a good pace, you're probably not gonna get a great opportunity at 'em. But if a carp's moving, you know, slow enough that you can reasonably get a fly in front of it, there's not a half bad chance that it eats it. It's always worth casting at those fish.
And I typically want to sink the fly into their field of view, not necessarily any [01:00:30.314] specific pattern, but as I was kind of talking about before with the slow sink rate, you do want something that'll be in their field of view for a while. So stuff that's not terribly heavy and is just gonna fall at a nice slow pace and sink right in front of their path as they're traveling along, that will oftentimes get them to react. And quite visibly, you know, they'll slow down and tip down and grab the fly either as it's falling or as it makes its way to the [01:01:00.348] bottom.
Tom: So you don't wanna strip it fast. You don't wanna move it. You just wanna sink it in front of them.
Rowan: Yeah. There may be some fisheries in which that works, but it consistently fails to produce fish in the carp fisheries I'm familiar with.
Tom: Mm-hmm, yeah. I think Lake Michigan. I've never fished there, but I know that fish are eating gobies and they're a lot more aggressive. And they will chase crayfish and...
Rowan: Yeah, I've heard the same. Yeah.
Tom: Yeah, but...
Rowan: Yeah, and that's [01:01:30.365] also the case with crayfish, definitely. There's fisheries with a high abundance of crayfish, and those carp may be more inclined to eat a stripped fly, especially a fly stripped along the bottom.
Tom: Mm-hmm, okay.
Rowan: But in a lot of fisheries that have a broad diet base, it's mostly insects, eggs, worms, things of that nature, the carp are not particularly inclined to chase a stripped fly. So for me, it's the default to just let it sink straight down a perfectly vertical [01:02:00.132] fall, and it works more times than not.
Tom: So it's the drag and drop technique. You cast ahead of them and beyond them, and then you strip it until it drops in front of them, right?
Rowan: Exactly. Yeah. That's a fantastic technique and often one that people that are familiar with sight fishing to more predatory fish struggle with when I'm guiding them. They'll often try and strip it mid-column thinking that's what I mean by [01:02:30.403] drag. But what you really wanna do is have that rod up pretty high and drag that fly so it's almost skating on the surface, almost making a wake, and it can move as quickly as possible. It doesn't really matter. The carp's not gonna pay any attention to it while it's up there on the surface, but you just wanna get it in the path of the fish very quickly and having it up there at the surface as the added benefit that you know exactly where the fly is, even if the water's really muddy.
So you can get it really right where it needs to be to sink within, you know, 5, 6 inches of that carp [01:03:00.740] space, dragging it quickly right at the surface. And then you gotta drop that rod and make sure the slack in your line doesn't drag the fly to you. If you keep the rod too high, the line will bow. It'll kind of pull that fly back towards you.
Tom: Okay, good point. Good point. So how about post-spawn? Is there anything different, you know, after? I know I've observed carp spawn for a long period of time, but not [01:03:30.072] all individuals are spawning at once, right? Some of them are not spawning, some of 'em are spawning. What are they like post-spawn?
Rowan: It can be kind of a funky time. A lot of the fish are a bit weird and lethargic. Some others are seemingly very keen to feed and, you know, bulk back up. Oftentimes, in my fisheries, the fishing shifts from being an all day affair to a morning and evening [01:04:00.341] affair once the spawn happens. It's almost this real distinct shift. That may just be because the water's warmer. Once it's beyond that spawning temperature, they no longer really need to feed all day. Their metabolism's working a little bit quicker. So, I definitely noticed that it stops being all-day fishing and shifts to more early and late or low light periods, cloudy days. And oftentimes, it's a little slower. [01:04:30.640] There's fewer fish up shallow in general.
Tom: Yeah, I've seen that.
Rowan: So you find more concentrated activity both in the number of fish and at the time of day.
Tom: Okay. And then during the summertime, you often see the fish coming in shallow into weed beds and pockets between weeds and just sitting there. They look like they're sleeping.
Rowan: Yes.
Tom: Can you catch those and what do you do? [01:05:00.065]
Rowan: You can catch 'em. Certainly the percentage of easy shots with those fishes is lower. A lot of them will either completely ignore fly or even just run away from it. But some of those fish will certainly... and that's when a ridiculously slow sinking fly comes into play something that maybe has no added weight whatsoever and often fairly small flies. I tend to find little [01:05:30.178] imitations of swimming mayfly nymphs like an unweighted hare's ear in olive or tan or something else of that nature. Just slowly dropping in. With these fish for them to even notice it, oftentimes it needs to be really inches from its face. Just a ridiculously slow fall rate with a subtle insect imitation can get some of those fish to feed pretty well. I've also had good success with [01:06:00.080] unweighted eggs, just glow bugs or sucker spawn sinking in front of those fish in the weed beds that are hovering and sunning themselves.
Tom: Okay. And these are obviously smaller flies, right? 14?
Rowan: Yeah, yeah, 14s, 12s, generally no bigger than a 10 when I'm targeting those sorts of fish specifically.
Tom: And how light of a tippet do you go? I mean, you can't get a [01:06:30.054] 16-pound through the eye of those flies, right? How light of a tippet will you go?
Rowan: It's generally situational, but 4X or 5X at times. If I'm targeting larger fish, I'll just try and fit whatever I can through the eye of that hook, especially if there's, you know, real thick mats of weeds around that they're likely to dive into. But 4X is kind of typical. That's usually what I go with.
Tom: A 20-pound carp on 4X has got to be [01:07:00.072] a battle.
Rowan: It's a heck of a battle. Yeah, absolutely. And when you're using tippets, that light anyway and flies that small, there's really not much of a point in using a heavier rod. Oftentimes in the spring, we're getting away with thicker tippets, 15, 16-pound, and heavier diameters. We can use 8 weights for those fish very comfortably. And if I'm targeting some of these really fickle fish in the summer, it's not uncommon that I'm [01:07:30.069] fishing long, thin 4 or 5, sometimes even 3 weight rods, depending on the size of the fish because I can depend on that longer, more limber rod to kind of protect that lighter tippet.
Tom: Do you prefer fluorocarbon or nylon tippets for carp?
Rowan: Generally I prefer nylon in most seasons. I use fluorocarbon early season in the floodplain because I'm fishing [01:08:00.038] around a lot of obstructions and there's a couple of fluorocarbon products that I can really count on to be abrasion-resistant when fish wrap around limbs, or swim around a tree, or do things like that.
In the summer especially, I'm using nylon because it has a little slower sink rate than most fluorocarbons and I can, you know, depend on it not to just drop down below the fish's level. And I've found no problem with the fish being [01:08:30.061] particularly finicky to a tippet that might be clearer as a fluorocarbon. So I generally use nylon throughout most of the later season.
Tom: Do you think carp are leader shy at all?
Rowan: They definitely can be. I believe mostly in relation to feeling it rather than seeing it. Certainly if you have a very, very obviously visible tippet, they might see that [01:09:00.551] and shy away from it. But more often when a fish seems to have spooked or gone off to feed because of a leader, it's because the leader touched some part of them. And it probably doesn't matter what diameter your leader is. If you're gonna touch the fish and they feel it and don't like it, they're not gonna like it if it's 5X. They're not gonna like it if it's 2X. They're not gonna like it if it's 0X.
So the best thing to do as far as leader-shy-carp is [01:09:30.009] avoid touching 'em, avoid casting over their body or over their head. Say a fish that's facing away from you, if it's liable to spook from the leader touching it, well, you can't get that fly in front of that fish's face without the leader touching it if you're casting over its entire body length. So, I tend to avoid trying to touch them with the leader. That seems to be their shyness in regards to leader in most of the fisheries I'm on.
Tom: I suppose if a fish is facing away, you could use a reach [01:10:00.019] cast or a curve cast, right?
Rowan: That's absolutely true. Yeah. And that's worked pretty well for us a lot of times doing some sort of curve or reach cast or even mending before the line starts to sink, especially when you're really close to the fish.
Tom: Oh, yeah. Mending might spook 'em though, right? Carp can get pretty spooky.
Rowan: They can often be spooky, but it never hurts. If you cast over a fish and you try to do a reach cast and it didn't work, you might as well try and throw a [01:10:30.076] mend. If it spooks the fish, it might have spooked the fish anyway with the line sinking across its body. So never hurts.
Tom: All right. So one of the things I also wanted to talk to you about is your hunt for new species. And this is fascinating. How many species of fish have you caught on a fly to date? [01:11:00.463]
Rowan: I'm just over 200, I think. 202 now. And that includes some hybrids like tiger trout and named subspecies like the cutthroats have, you know, distinct name subspecies.
Tom: Right. But you've caught some unusual fish. I mean, I know our mutual friend Drew Price has told me about you going... Talk about some of the tiny fish that you've targeted. Tell me some stories about [01:11:30.028] those.
Rowan: One of my absolute favorite generic fish is darters. Well, actually family fishes, darters, which are related to perch and walleye, but they're tiny versions of those. In the Northeast, we don't have too much diversity of darters, but throughout a lot of Appalachia, there's all these fabulous, colorful little darters that live on the bottoms of clear cold streams that, you know, may only reach a couple of inches long. But they're these [01:12:00.008] elegant little spectacular fish that live in the ripples. They're like micro versions of brook trout with a totally different behavior and a totally different attitude.
And actually my 200th fish on the fly was a darter species that I've wanted to catch for a long time. It's a fairly well-known species for those that are interested in just colorful little native freshwater fish. So the rainbow darter, and I caught it in Ohio in a small creek [01:12:30.054] basically walking around a riffle with a 3 weight, looking at the bottom and analyzing every little nook and crevice to see if I could spot one. And then dropping a size 24 midge with a split shot right in front of it and jiggling it in front of this fish that was definitely under two inches. It was just this tiny little thing.
And after putting flies in front of, I don't know, dozens of these little [01:13:00.147] darters and many of them attacking the split shot but completely ignoring the midge and others running heck away like it was the scariest thing they'd ever seen. Eventually I got one to take the midge and had this gorgeous little red, blue, green tan colored native freshwater fish. You know, it's the tiniest little thing. It's not gonna fight at all, but it's just this wonderful little example of how a different fish evolved in some of our [01:13:30.155] freshwater ecosystems.
Tom: That's so cool. And I assume you get pictures of each one of these when you catch 'em.
Rowan: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I try. I've got this little acrylic photo tank that you put water in and you can put the fish in and sometimes you can get some really good photos in that. But, yeah, they're gorgeous little fish to photograph especially. Considering they don't fight at all, getting the photograph is almost more [01:14:00.019] gratifying than finding a fish.
Tom: So tell me about some other unusual species that you've caught.
Rowan: Absolutely. All sorts of weird stuff from the salt water to the fresh water. Every once in a while, it's just a matter of luck. One of the strangest fish I've caught was a barrel fish, which primarily live in their adult form in water deeper than 600 feet in the Atlantic ocean. So [01:14:30.050] not a viable fly target actually. But the juveniles and actually how they got their name was that the first example of the species that were ever found were found in floating barrels in the Gulf Stream. And I guess the juveniles of the species will kind of hang out ally near the surface out in the Gulf Stream. And they typically relate to floating debris. And as their namesake, they'll get inside floating barrels and things like that and sort of shelter there as they, [01:15:00.222] you know, grow towards adulthood.
And once they're maybe a foot long or so, they'll take the deeper water and larger prey and basically make themselves completely not targetable with a fly rod. Of course, a tiny fish out in the Gulf Stream is not something most people are gonna be equipped, so I just kind of had to get lucky. I found a barrel fish that had been blown inshore in Rhode Island by three or four days of strong onshore wind from, [01:15:30.042] you know, 40 to 50 miles an hour. It was blown for a while.
And this little barrel fish, presumably whatever piece of debris it was living under, blew in shore and washed into a breachway. And this fish was hanging out in the lee of a rock, almost like a trout just sitting in the seam. And I drifted a little jig fly in front of it, and after a few casts and a little bit of coaxing, it decided it wanted it. And I had this weird little fish that I probably wouldn't have...[01:16:00.367] I had no idea what it was. In fact, my friend only did because he'd read an article about someone else catching a barrel fish in Cape Cod Canal just a couple of years prior. So we just by chance knew what the thing was and by luck managed to find it. We had no intention of finding such a species that day, but sometimes you get lucky.
Tom: So you weren't going out in search of a barrel fish?
Rowan: No. Now that I know [01:16:30.104] about them, I suppose I could. I could get on a boat way out in the Gulf Stream and look for them on floating debris. And if I have a 4 weight and some small flies, I could catch some barrel fish out there.
Tom: Not many people take a 4...
Rowan: [crosstalk 01:16:41.750].
Tom: Not many people take a four weight out into the Gulf Stream.
Rowan: Exactly. That's why I doubt many people have ever caught a barrel fish on the fly. It would take a weirdo like myself to try and go catch small fish out in blue water instead of [01:17:00.029] large targets like makos and marlin and things of that nature. But it was quite an interesting fish to get through an encounter. I'll never, you know, see the actual habitat of that fish in its adult form, and it lives down 600 plus feet. So getting to catch that species on a fly rod at all just felt like a privilege. That was quite an exciting thing to encounter.
Tom: So, have you caught Blacknose dace and Longnose dace and sculpins on a fly? [01:17:30.061]
Rowan: Yeah, absolutely. Dace are kind of fickle at times. It can take a little bit of coaxing. My Longnose dace was totally incidental while nymphing for trout, funny enough, and I put a lot of effort into specifically catching them and never succeeded. So it was kind of funny to dumb into one essentially while targeting trout.
Sculpins are an absolute blast. It doesn't take particularly [01:18:00.502] small flies because they have big heads and they're very aggressive and they'll eat a size 18 nymph. And it's kind of fun. It's sight fishing of sorts. Sometimes you'll see them on the bottom, but more often you'll just look for rocks that have sort of a little hole under them, and you'll dab a nymph in front of that hole and jig it around, and a sculpin will just dart out and grab the thing. And they're very variable in pattern. Some are [01:18:30.084] really tan, some are brown or olive. And it can be fantastic to get to see a bunch of sculpins in their color variations or if there's specific color variations for the streams you're fishing because you might learn that, oh, you've been fishing the wrong color pattern sculpin fly for trout in this stream the entire time. They were actually all tan, and you were fishing dark olive. You can learn a lot from catching fish like this that's applicable [01:19:00.146] to targeting more traditional, you know, game species.
Tom: What's on your list for fish that you wanna catch? I mean, not necessarily exotic, but maybe, you know, close to home fish. What have you got on your list that you've been wanting to catch?
Rowan: One that's been absolutely driving me nuts that's... One of the only fish that I've caught on spinning gear but not on a fly rod is a white catfish.
Tom: A white [01:19:30.614] catfish.
Rowan: Which is just a larger bullhead species essentially. And down in Connecticut here near me, they're not terribly uncommon in tidal freshwater rivers. The Connecticut River has quite a lot of them. In fact, I've put two clients on white catfish, and yet I've failed to catch one myself.
Tom: Oh, no.
Rowan: Yeah. But they're certainly around. And that's one that's been on my list forever just because it's so close to home. [01:20:00.134] And I've caught them on bait and I've had clients catch them. And I've seen them, but I've never managed to get one to eat a fly myself. So that's pretty high on the list. There's certainly some others.
In salt water, a really interesting one. It's kind of an exotic fish that just turns up locally, especially in New Jersey and Long Island in the summer, a snowy grouper. And they're never particularly big ones, [01:20:30.026] but maybe 5, 6, 7 inches at most. But they show up in breachways and on piers and jetties, and they're just this gorgeous little, generally relatively deep water fish that makes their way into our waters when the water temperatures really peak in late summer, early fall. And I have friends that have caught those, and I'd love to catch one on fly. And it seems like a fairly viable target. So that's one that's on the list for this year. I really hope to get that done this [01:21:00.045] season.
Tom: What else has evaded your skills?
Rowan: Swamp darters. That's a species that's avoided me pretty effectively. There's some species that I've caught in other states but live in Connecticut that I've wanted to catch. Banded sunfish, I've caught in Virginia. They don't get particularly big, but they're gorgeous, gorgeous little sunfish. Very, [01:21:30.294] very colorful. And though they live in Connecticut, and I've tried to catch 'em in Connecticut, I've failed to find them. And swamp darters, they occupy some of the same habitat. Oftentimes they're in the same electrofishing samples. I'll often rely on electrofishing data to kind of find locations to target these oddball species. And swamp darters, they're very difficult. Even people that lifelist target, you know, all these [01:22:00.258] different weird species and don't do so specifically with a fly rod, many of them have struggled to get swamp darters. So it'd be a really significant challenge to get one of them on an artificial fly, but I'm up for it.
Tom: Are there many people that do this. I mean, you hear of people catching all kinds of game fish species, but are there many people that go for these smaller fish that nobody targets?
Rowan: It's a [01:22:30.391] small community. It's definitely grown. There's a lot more people that do it with, you know, no regard to whether it's on fly or even on artificial lure. There's a lot of people that lifelist and target these micro fish with bait now. Of course, it's a segment of a segment of a segment of the total fishing community. So it's definitely a little group of eccentric weirdos.
But we have grown in number, and there's even a small, [01:23:00.032] really small but growing number of people that are trying to do with a fly rod. In fact, it's not uncommon. Most years I'll get at least one or two clients that are specifically trying to catch weird new fish species that are kind of off other people's radar. I have a few people that come to me specifically to catch things like goldfish, and sculpins, and, you know, odd small species in saltwater. So it's enough that I get some clientele from it. And it's kind of a fun [01:23:30.195] little community. A lot of us know each other pretty well, and anytime we're in the same part of the country, we'll try and meet up and fish. And it's a fun little group to be in.
Tom: Is there an organization, or a chat room, or a website where these people communicate?
Rowan: There's a couple. There's for a long time a website called Roughfish, that has some forums and a good community on it of lifelist fishermen. There's a lot [01:24:00.034] of people that are involved with North American Native Fish Association, NANFA. They have a big conference every year, and a lot of people that are into lifelist fishing go to that. And there's all sorts of Facebook groups on micro fishing and lifelist fishing. So there's all sorts of little niche groups here and there for people that are interested in that sort of thing.
Tom: Now, how many species was that again that you caught so far?
Rowan: I'm up to, I believe, [01:24:30.104] 202 now.
Tom: 202. Wow. And I love what you do with your guide service. You know, you told me where you're fishing that you love trout and you wanted to guide for a living, but you realized that there were too many guides on your local trout streams and you didn't wanna horn in on them. So you focused on all these other things that nobody else is guiding for, right, that are ignoring and you're getting [01:25:00.134] a lot of people who are interested in what you're doing.
Rowan: Absolutely. I mean, I think there's certainly growing interests for a lot of warm water species, both the more traditional targets like smallmouth and pike and oddball species like carp suckers, bowfin, and even channel catfish. And down down here, there's nobody really fully filling that niche to its capacity. There's a few people here and there that advertise [01:25:30.370] carp trips, but I'm out guiding for carp when trout season is at its peak. You know, whereas most guides in Connecticut that fish freshwater would have all their clients on the Farmington, or the Housatonic, or another big name trout river.
Most days I'm out on a mudflat pulling a canoe for carp, and I love that fact. It kind of blows my mind that I've gotten to, you know, convince as many people as I have to target some of these odd ducks [01:26:00.149] instead of the more staple game fish, but it's a fantastic thing because it's great to pull pressure off of these trout fisheries...
Tom: Absolutely, absolutely.
Rowan: ...which are really seeing far too much pressure. You know, when you're seeing trout refuse natural mayflies drifting over the heads, and you're catching fish that have no maxillary bone because they've been hooked so many times, that's not a good thing. And it might be time to go fish for some other species here and there. [01:26:30.011] And I love that I can, you know, find a pretty strong base of clientele that are interested in targeting carp, and on a mudflat, and in the woods in the Connecticut River floodplain. It's a pretty special thing.
Tom: It sure is. I can vouch for that. Where can people get hold of you, Rowan, you have a website?
Rowan: I have a website and blog called Connecticut Fly Angler. If you Google at [01:27:00.198] Connecticut spelled out, it'll pop up. I have an Instagram that's the same thing, but ct.fly.angler. And on Facebook, it's Connecticut Fly Angler as well.
Tom: Great. And I have been following you on Instagram and seeing all the interesting things you're doing. Anyway, Rowan, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and for opening our eyes on [01:27:30.509] alternative species. I'm sure that we're gonna get some interest in that.
Rowan: Well, thanks for having me, Tom.
Tom: Anything we can do to take pressure off our trout streams. People still think fly fishing is just for trout, and there's a whole other world even in fresh water beyond trout for sure. And beyond trout and bass for that matter.
Rowan: Yeah. And even in the same waters.
Tom: Yeah. In the same waters. Yes.
Rowan: Yes. [01:28:00.411]
Tom: All right. We've been talking to Rowan Lytle, Connecticut Fly Fisher, and a holder of 202 different species of fish on a fly. So thank you, Rowan, for sharing all your knowledge with us today.
Rowan: Anytime, Tom. Thanks for having me.
Tom: All right. And I hope to see you soon.
Rowan: Hopefully.
Male Speaker: Thanks for listening to the Orvis Fly Fishing podcast with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show.[01:28:30.305] Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at