Fly Fishing in Central Park, with Brandon Dale

Tom: Hi, and welcome to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer, and my guest this week is Brandon Dale. Brandon is a licensed New York State guide in Central Park in the middle of New York City. And Brandon's main target species is, as you know, one [00:00:30] of my favorites, carp. And this is this is an amazing, exciting fishery in the middle of one of the largest cities in the world. I've never done this, but it's gotta be really cool to fly fish in Central Park in the middle of the city. So, Brandon's gonna tell us his secrets for catching urban carp, and also, tell us a few stories about what it's like fishing in Central Park. So, I hope you enjoy it.
[00:01:00] Before we start the Fly Box, I'm gonna be doing a grand tour of the Front Range in Colorado this July. Coming up, coming up very soon. And I'll give you a list of the places I'm gonna be visiting, and I would love to see podcast listeners in person come and ask me questions in-person instead of emailing 'em into the Fly Box, or come and listen to my presentations on trout fishing, or just to hang out, have [00:01:30] a beer and some snacks.
Anyway, I'll give you the schedule. On July 12th from 4 to 8 p.m., I'm gonna be at Anglers All in Denver. On July 13th in the morning, 11 a.m. to 3 p.m., actually, I'm gonna be at Denver Cherry Creek. And then that evening, July 13th, I'm gonna be at the [00:02:00] Golden Fly Shop from 4 p.m. to 8 p.m. And then on the 14th, I'm gonna be at Orvis Park Meadows from 11 a.m. to 3 p.m. And the next day, the 15th of July, I'm gonna be in Colorado Springs at Angler's Covey from 4 p.m. to 8 p.m. The next day, July 16th, I'm gonna be in Boulder at Front Range Anglers [00:02:30] from 4 p.m. to 8 p.m. The 17th of July, I'm gonna be in Evergreen at Blue Quill Angler from 4 p.m. to 8 p.m. On the 19th...I get a day off in between. On the 19th, July 19th, I'm gonna be at Breckenridge Outfitters in Breckenridge, Colorado, from 4 p.m. to 8 p.m. And then on [00:03:00] July 20th, I'm gonna be in Glenwood Springs at Hooker's Fly Shop from 4 p.m. to 8 p.m. And finally, on the 21st of July, I'm gonna be in Avon at Fly Fishing Outfitters. So, quite a tour. Don't worry, I'll get my fishing in between those presentations and talks. But I'm really looking forward to seeing [00:03:30] podcast listeners and seeing people in general out in the Front Range of Colorado. So, hope you can join us at one of those. And to get more details, you can call those individual stores and ask 'em for more details.
All right. Onto the Fly Box. And you know what, I'm gonna get a little wild and crazy here. I'm gonna do a phone call first. I always start with an email. So, I'm gonna do a phone call first. And the first phone call [00:04:00] is from Gilbert from Upstate New York.
Gilbert: Hey, Tom, this is Gilbert from Upstate New York. Recently, I was fishing some dry-dropper on streaming the Adirondacks and had had some good luck with it. I was catching fish on the dry and on the dropper. And the best fish I took was a very healthy brown trout I took on the dropper fly. So, this was in an area that I'd [00:04:30] worked before, and so I knew it was gonna be productive, and I worked it pretty thoroughly until I decided that I had exhausted my possibility. So, moved upstream and was away from this particular spot for probably a couple of hour...hour-and-a-half or two hours. And then deadheading back, I decided, well, lemme switch over to my streamer rod and I ran a streamer through that same water where I caught the big brown trout. [00:05:00] And don't you know it, I nailed a beautiful trout, came out of the water, but snapped me off.
And so, that got me to thinking, would that be the same trout I caught earlier? What do you know about how long it takes a trout to go back to feeding after it's been caught? So that was maybe an hour-and-a-half to two hours between fish. So, that looked like the fish I had caught earlier. [00:05:30] Also, I'm wondering what's gonna happen to that fish? He had a thin mint woolly bugger in his mouth with a...it had a bead on it and a good section of tippet. So, how is that gonna affect him? Would that fish be able to continue to feed, how likely is it that he's going to get that hook out of his mouth? [00:06:00] Just wondering if you have any thoughts on how long it takes a fish to recover from being caught to start feeding again and what happens to those fish that have streamers or other hooks in their mouths, how long do they have them and, you know, what kind of plan do they have to get them out of their mouth? Anyway, just wondering, and maybe you have [00:06:30] some thoughts on the subject. Thank you, Tom.
Tom: Well, Gilbert, that could or could not have been the same fish that you broke off. I would say if it was a hatchery fish, there's a possibility, if it's a wild fish, probably not. But, often, in a really good spot, you might find a couple of decent-sized fish. So, no way of knowing unless you took a picture of both of 'em. You know, trout have [00:07:00] individual spot patterns, they're as unique as fingerprints. And although I don't urge you to take pictures of every fish you catch. You know, if you had caught and landed that first one, took a picture of it, and then caught it later, you would be able to tell if it was the same fish by looking at the spot pattern. But I'm not sure. I seriously doubt if it was the same fish.
When fish have a fly stuck in their mouth, if it's barbless, [00:07:30] they get it out pretty quickly, but even if it's not, there's been some studies shown that the fish get rid of it within a day or two. The wound will fester a little bit and the hook will slip out, and of course, if it's a barbless hook, it slips out a lot easier. The fish will rub their noses on the gravel to try to get it out. So, they don't stay in that long. They usually get rid of that hook pretty quickly.
All right. Now, [00:08:00] let's do an email. And the first one is from Andrew from Pennsylvania. "Excellent thing you and the Orvis teams do for fly fishing. I have what I think is a very important question, but often is an aspect overlooked when we're all caught up in the gear and technique stuff. Would you kindly cast some insight upon the art of seeking out and discovering new fishing locations or spots? In other words, I live and fish streams, rivers, and occasional lake, all within reach of my home in Philadelphia, [00:08:30] Pennsylvania. I get to Henryville and the Poconos or historical Valley Creek, a variety, but it's limited if you're like me and stink at knowing where to look or who to trust, plus it takes time.
And although I ensure to make time in my busy life for fishing, I simply can't afford much more for the process of hiking around or driving around. But I know there are so many places around here. And for anyone anywhere in the world, it can be tough or [00:09:00] dangerous, even to trek about trying to find new places to explore fishing. Maybe a silly question, but I'm tired of the glitchy apps or the sometimes possessive fellow anglers who give vague answers because they don't want to give away spots. Any general advice or specific references or simple wisdom around that? Thank you so much for any insight you have and keep up all you do in guiding the rest of us lovers of wet lines."
So Andrew, [00:09:30] you know, there is no easy answer to this. One place you can go is typically states will publish lists of waters and what species there are in the area. For instance, I was in the Boston area just a couple days ago, and I wanted to take my 2-and-a-half-year-old grandson fishing. He'd never been fishing before and he'd been bugging me to go fishing. [00:10:00] So, what I did was, first of all, I looked at Google Maps to see some surrounding lakes in the area. I wanted one in a park that had some room to cast and had public access. And I think that I wouldn't use the satellite view, I'd use the regular terrain view or the default view because that shows you the blue spots as we discussed in a couple episodes previously. [00:10:30] Once you find a bunch of areas that are near where you wanna go, you can look in that state list and see what species there are. And you know, I question really whether it's dangerous to explore new spots. There are a lot more dangerous things that you can do like driving to the spot is a lot more dangerous than exploring the spot itself.
[00:11:00] But, you know, there are no easy answers. I would suggest that maybe if you suspect you wanna fish a place that you go and check it out, either first light or last light. Usually fish are more active, particularly bass and bluegills and things, more active at first light and last light. Middle of the day, not so much because you may have people around swimming or boating and the light is bright. So, other than that, you know, you can still check the internet. [00:11:30] You can find some intelligence on the internet. You never know what you're gonna find. But, you know, if you're not gonna trust other people, you're gonna have to find it by yourself. And again, there's no easy answer to this.
Here's an email from Eric in California. "I invested in the Orvis Hybrid Wading Boots along with the PosiGrip Studs. After installing them as deeply as I could with the pattern Orvis provides, I noticed they still appeared to be sitting too high. I [00:12:00] recalled a previous Fly Box suggestion you gave to get the head of the stud as flush as possible with the other grip in the shoe. Worried that I was gonna skate on the rocks and get no help from the felt, I made a modification. After unscrewing each stud, I used a drill bit spinning backwards and light pressure to clear out some of the felt at each of the stud locations. When I reinstalled the screws, I was able to perfectly sink the height of the stud with the height of the felt, and therefore, I hope, get the [00:12:30] most benefit from both the spikes and the felt of the hybrid soles when I'm wet wading this summer in Montana. Hope this makes sense and is useful tip to help other anglers looking to get the most out of those amazing boots."
Yeah, that's a great tip, Eric. Thank you very much. When I installed my studs, I used an impact drill and it probably applied more pressure and I was able to get those studs flushed. But with a normal drill, you may have to open [00:13:00] those holes up a little bit before you insert the studs. But, as you point out, it's a great idea to make sure those studs are nearly flush with the surface of either the rubber or the felt because you don't want to be skating on the tops of the studs.
Chad: Hey Tom, this is Chad in Michigan. I have a question and comment for the Fly Box. First off, I was doing some blue lining recently, looking for some new spots to try. [00:13:30] I used the fish stocking database we have here as well as digging up some old online fishing reports, you know, and trying to figure out where to go and everything pointed to a pretty nice little piece of trout water. When my son and I fished it recently, we went out in the morning, got there early, fished it, you know, probably to noon and no trout and just got beat up with creek chubs, and I, you know, tried to avoid the faster water, tried to stay in the pockets [00:14:00] in there, you know. But I guess my question is the relationship with chubs and trout water, you know, is it a good sign, should there be trout in there, how to avoid them, you know, is it worth going back to? So looking for some information on that.
And then my comment is, you know, for years I always kinda stayed in that mid-range when purchasing fly line. I never thought it mattered, you know, try and go over towards that maybe [00:14:30] more premium line. Recently, I purchased a pretty good line for an older 6-weight rod I had, and man, what a difference. It brought that rod back to life. You know, it just seems slicker, livelier I guess. So, you know, for other folks out there that, like me, they're always kinda teetering on that, if you can, you may wanna shoot for that more premium line because, man, it's worth it. And then probably the biggest benefit, it's made in Michigan as well. [00:15:00] So, there's that. Anyway, thanks, Tom. Hope to hear from you. Bye.
Tom: Well, Chad, creek chubs are typically native where you have trout. Sometimes they're native and the trout aren't. And, you know, they're part of the ecosystem. And creek chubs provide really good food for large brown trout. So, when you have creek chubs in the river and there's brown trout around, there's a chance some of those trout are gonna be pretty large. You know, I don't think they [00:15:30] really compete with trout. The limiting factor in most streams are places to feed and good feeding locations. And chubs don't typically occupy the same places as trout.
Now, I don't know if you misspoke, but you said you avoided the fast water and fished the pockets. Where you have chubs and trout, the trout are gonna tend to be in faster current, and the chubs are gonna tend to be in the slower pools. So, [00:16:00] I would check the faster water or the edges of the fast water the next time you go there. But I think it's worth going back. You know, chubs are a lot easier to catch than trout. They're a lot more agreeable and easy to fool. And it's likely that there are trout there if the water stays cold enough. I mean, creek chugs typically indicate a little bit warmer water. They don't tolerate the cold [00:16:30] water that things like brook trout and browns or rainbows do, but, you know, they can overlap with trout in warmer places, and it's definitely not an indication that there won't be trout there. They coexist with trout often. And also, thank you very much for your comment on the fly line. Yeah, it sometimes makes a big difference to upgrade your fly line, as I've stated before. [00:17:00]
Here's an email from Jeffrey from Michigan. "I'm somewhat new to fly tying, and I've entered a phase where I'm delving into the properties and qualities of different materials and benefits of specific techniques, spending a way too much time on the internet and YouTube listing to opinions from multiple sources. There are two items for which I cannot find much information, use of kapok dubbing and wing burning. Are these just options that aren't very popular [00:17:30] because better ones exist or possibly a bit trendy in the past and interest has waned? Maybe they're just viewed as oddities that do not fill any specific need. I would love to hear your thoughts on the subject. Thank you for all the work you put into your productions, the information you provide, and experience you share has been invaluable as a new tire."
Tom: So Jeffrey, yeah, kapok's an old material, has been around a long time, but it's recently had a resurgence in the fly tying world [00:18:00] as like a new material, even though not much as new in fly tying. And you know, it's great stuff. You know, of course it's a plant fiber, so, you know, if you're vegan, it's a good [inaudible 00:18:15] to use. And it spins very well. I have seen the occasional packet of kapok where it's all knotted up and was really difficult to work with, but most of the time, [00:18:30] the packages you get, it's nice and fine and you can spin a really, really fine body on small dry flies and nymphs and things like that. And it does repel water pretty well. They use it in life vests, but probably more important is that it holds floating well. I don't know if it floats things any better than fur dubbing or synthetic dubbing, but it is nice stuff, and I would urge you to give it a try.
[00:19:00] Wing burners, you're right, they were a big thing maybe, I don't know, 20, 30 years ago. And they make beautiful-looking wings that look just like mayfly and caddis wings. The problem with those wings that I've found is that they tend to be really stiff and they will spin a fly when you cast it, even though they look pretty good. If you do use wing burners, and they're certainly useful [00:19:30] for some things, make sure that you use a feather with a very thin stem down the middle. The thicker the stem, the more the fly is likely to twist. And you know, as far as burning wings for things like stonefly nymphs where you're laying it flat and you don't have to worry about the fly twisting, they work quite well. So, nothing wrong with them, maybe we should be bringing 'em back, but just pay attention [00:20:00] to the stem and give 'em a try.
Here's an email from Patrick. "I've been listening to your podcast for the last four months. I really like the Fly Box. I just took up fly fishing as an indicator fisher this year, and I have been fishing numerous mountain streams in the Swiss Alps. Most of the time I go fishing, the water is clear and I catch a lot of trout. The weekend, it rained a lot and the water was murky. This affected negatively the way I was [00:20:30] fishing. My first question is, do you have any explanation or tips on how to deal with murky water in mountain streams? My second question is, when it comes to those small streams, I spot easily where the fish could be hiding, but when it comes to big rivers, I have no clue where to cast. Do you have any tips on how to work that big water? Thank you for filling my car ride with knowledge."
Well, Patrick, in general, when small mountain streams get murky, you [00:21:00] need to fish along the edges. The fish are gonna be pushed into the shallower and slower water along the edges, or maybe perhaps pockets in front of and well behind big rocks. But, generally, the fish will move toward the banks. And as far as tips are concerned, interesting, I fished a mountain stream the other day that it had rained and it had gotten a little murky. It's a stream I fish a lot with a dry dropper and I was fishing [00:21:30] fairly large dry fly with a nymph. And the nymph usually works about half the time, maybe three-quarters of the time, and the dry fly works a quarter of the time. And all the fish I caught were on the dry fly. I couldn't buy a fish on the nymph, and you would think in dirty water the nymph would work better, but I think that, perhaps, the fish could see the dry fly better. The water was too murky for them to spot the nymph, but they could see the dry fly on the surface. I eventually took off the nymph, which [00:22:00] I hardly ever do, and just fish the dry fly. So, big dry fly along the edges or a small streamer will work probably. Maybe nymphs won't work that well, but you never know. So, try everything, but I would tend to concentrate along the banks.
As far as big rivers are concerned, they can be intimidating, but what you wanna do is look for the kind of water that trout like to feed in and [00:22:30] that is water that's 2 to 4 feet deep, water that's moving about 1 to 2 feet per second, which is relatively slow, not too fast, not too slow, and then in uniform current. You don't wanna fish areas with big areas of turbulence. So, if you can find those three things, you know, just look over a big river. Don't just get in a big river and start fishing. You need to look at it overall and see where those spots are that satisfy those three requirements and [00:23:00] hopefully that'll help somewhat.
Priscilla: Hi, Tom, this is Priscilla in San Antonio, Texas, and I have a question about casting practice. So, I work very long hours and I have a toddler, so I don't get to go fishing nearly as often as I would like. If I can go once or twice a month, that's, like, pretty good for me. But sometimes because of work, I won't be able to go for [00:23:30] months at a time and it certainly shows in my casting when I am unable to get out on the water very frequently. The closest river is about 45 minutes away, so I can't go during the week. It's really something that has to happen on the weekends and not even every weekend. So, I'd like to start practicing my casting if I'm able to sometimes in the evenings at a football field or something like that. I can't really do it in my backyard because I have a lot of trees.
But [00:24:00] I was wondering if you have any tips for practicing casting that could help me with different sizes of flies. So, I've noticed that if I'm fishing for a while, my cast will look pretty good with a fly that's kind of, you know, a smaller fly or something. I'm almost always fishing a 9 foot, 5-weight rod. But once I start [00:24:30] throwing on some bigger flies, like for bass and stuff, I have a harder time having a nice cast. It kind of gets all wonky and I start to have trouble. So, I was wondering, you know, if I'm missing something obvious that I could be doing in terms of practicing, whether that would be practicing with a fly and cutting off the hook or something if I'm gonna go practice on the grass so that I'm not getting caught up on stuff [00:25:00] all day, or if you've got any other tips, maybe I'm missing something very obvious here that I could be doing to practice that. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you for all of the knowledge that you share so willingly with the rest of us. I pretty much have learned to fish by watching the Orvis videos and have learned everything that I know from your podcast. [00:25:30] So, thank you so much for demystifying the sport and for being inclusive. Thanks.
Tom: Well, Priscilla, first of all, just because you have a lot of trees in your backyard doesn't mean you can't practice casting. In fact, that might be a good place to practice casting so that you can practice your accuracy and practice avoiding obstacles. But maybe it's too restricted and you're not fishing small streams. Fly size [00:26:00] does matter. You know, going from, like, a small dry fly or a nymph to a bigger streamer or a popper or whatever, it's gonna change your casting. And there is not a lot you can do about it. You just have to adjust. You need to open your loop a little bit, in other words, increase your casting arc just a bit, maybe slow down your casting cadence.
And then one of the things you wanna do is if you're going to a bigger fly, [00:26:30] you definitely want to shorten and stiffen your leader. So, you wanna shorten up your leader, go to a shorter leader or just shorten up on your tippet, or go to a heavier tippet because the bigger flies are often...they have some weight and they're often air resistant and they're gonna push back against a light tippet. So, especially when practicing, I would go to a fairly heavy tippet, depending on the fly size, of course. I can't give you an exact one, but I would go to a stiffer and heavier [00:27:00] tippet.
And yeah, you can do a couple things. You know, people practice a lot with yarn, but yarn doesn't always mimic the weight and the air resistance of flies. So, I would take an older fly, you know, that you don't want any more...about the size that you're gonna be fishing and just cut the whole bend off the hook with a pair of wire cutters so that you don't hook yourself by [00:27:30] accident and then use that as a practice fly. And, you know, it'll last for...it doesn't matter if you beat it up because it'll still work as a practice fly. So, hopefully that helps.
Here's an email from Chad from Sweden. "Thanks as always for everything you and Orvis do." I have a question about waders and wading jackets. In particular, what should be on the top layer? I got used to wearing my wading jacket on the inside of waders after a bad experience wading too deep and getting some fly boxes wet by [00:28:00] having the water come inside the jacket from underneath. But the other day when I was fishing for grayling with my brother-in-law, he laughed at me because it was raining hard and all the water was running down my jacket and into my waders because I had the jacket stuffed inside the waders. Still, in my experience, having the wading jacket inside the waders is much warmer than having it on the outside in cold fishing days. And if it's too warm, I don't need a wading jacket at all. So, what's the deal? Is the wading jacket best worn on top of [00:28:30] the waders or inside the waders? I'm dying to know."
Well, Chad, you can wear your wading jacket any way you want. Personally, I'm gonna wear it outside my waders. I'm sorry, but I think your brother-in-law is right, wearing a wading jacket inside your waders is just asking for wet pants because the water's gonna run down inside your waders. And you know, maybe you should carry your fly boxes higher up, maybe wear, [00:29:00] you know, a chest pack or a fishing vest so that when your wading jacket hangs in the water, you don't get your fly boxes wet, or maybe put your fly boxes inside your waders somewhere. And as far as being warmer, having your wading jacket inside your waders, maybe just wear another layer if it's cold. But I think you're gonna be a lot happier and your brother-in-law's not gonna [00:29:30] laugh at you if you wear your wading jacket outside your waders.
Here's an email from Lance from Tennessee. "First off, thank you for the resource this podcast has been to all of us anglers. I have two questions. For context, I live in Middle Tennessee and mainly fish small creeks in rivers for smallmouth, largemouth, and spotted bass. Could you explain how to read the water for smallmouth bass? Everything that I see, books and videos, is all about how to read water for trout. I imagine [00:30:00] that bass, specifically smallmouth, inhabit different areas of the river than trout. Number two, is there any advantage of fishing a shorter rod for river bass? I see many manufacturers, including Orvis, now having 7 and 8-weight that are inches shorter than the 9 foot."
Well Lance, smallmouth move around a lot more than trout. There are times when they're feeding on insects that they will inhabit just about the same areas of trout, in [00:30:30] other words, just on the edges of fast water and uniform current, 2 to 4 feet deep. You know, if they're trying to take advantage of an insect catch, they're gonna be close to the current. However, if they're hunting for minnows and crayfish, they're gonna be in slower water than trout. So, I would say, you know, the edges of faster water, back eddies, tails of pools, in particular, I've seen smallmouth, any place that is easier [00:31:00] for them to hunt down crayfish and bait fish. So, in general, smallmouth and especially largemouth, largemouth are definitely gonna be in the slower water, they're not gonna be in the current. But smallmouth sometimes in the current, but often in deeper pockets. And they're usually gonna be a little bit closer to some kinda cover, like a log, or a rock, or something where they can lie in wait and ambush those bait fish, and crayfish, [00:31:30] and hellgrammites, and cicadas and other things that they eat.
Regarding shorter rod, yeah, if you have a lot of overhanging trees or really tight casts and you have trouble with back-casts, those shorter rods, a little bit quicker and a little bit of higher line speed, and they are really great. They were really developed for driving a fly line [00:32:00] underneath mangroves and overhanging trees and things like that, places where you have a tight spot. So, you know, if your river is wide open and big, nothing wrong with using a shorter rod. But if you have a really tight cover in your rivers, then yeah, the shorter rod is going to help you greatly. That's what they were designed for.
Here's an email from Tim from Boston. "Love your show and I'm a long-time listener. Your podcast have [00:32:30] been an absolute pleasure for me to listen to over the years and have taught me much. My question is from an experience I had fishing in the Deerfield River in Western Massachusetts in November last year. I caught a rainbow on a nymph in a small pool near the shoreline. After basking in the glory of my catch, of which I don't have many, I cast for 5 more minutes in the same pool, caught nothing, then decided to move upstream about 15 to 20 yards. I spotted another rainbow in this new stretch of river. It did not appear to be actively [00:33:00] eating and was in maybe only 18 inches of water within 2 to 3 feet of shoreline. Its movement was slow and steady, not moving further upstream or changing position in the water column. After studying it for a few minutes and moving by indicator to better match the water depth, I threw a cast in and what do you know, but bang, on the first catch, it took the same fly. This fish put up almost no fight after the hook set, appearing to me to be quite tired.
After netting the fish, I couldn't help but notice that it looked almost exactly [00:33:30] the same as the one I had caught previously, same in size and physical appearance. Given the second fish's lack of fight once hooked, I started to wonder if maybe I'd caught the same fish twice. That is my question. What are the chances that I actually did catch the same fish twice and only a few minutes apart? How does behavior of individual fish change after being caught? Do they shut off for a while or pick right up eating?"
Well, Tim, there's no way to know for sure, but I suspect that's [00:34:00] not the same fish. The Deerfield River has wild fish, but it is also stocked. And I have a feeling that that fish that you saw in the shallows that wasn't moving very much, and it was in shallow water, was a freshly stocked fish that was just kind of getting its sea legs and wondering where the hell it was. And the fact that, you know, the two fish looked almost exactly like, well, you know, when they're raised in the hatcheries, they're the same strain of fish and they're [00:34:30] fed the same, and so they often are the exact same size and coloration and shape and so on. So, you know, once you catch a fish and release it, it's gonna be tired, and it's gonna be freaked out, and it's probably not gonna feed for a while anywhere from, you know, an hour to days after you catch and release it. So, I doubt that it was the same fish. [00:35:00] And I think that what what you did was you stumbled upon a place where that fish had been freshly stocked.
Here's an email from John from Arkansas. "My father-in-law and I have the same rod from the mid-'90s, a 5-weight graphite model. I commented after casting it for the first time in years that it was slower than the rods I typically use now and he said his had worn out in the same way. Does graphite lose its spring with use in time or are rods just [00:35:30] built to be faster now? Follow-up question, do you think the rod action makes a difference when teaching someone to cast?"
So, John, it's probably a little bit of both. Graphite rods don't lose much over time. That material is pretty, pretty sturdy. And the fibers don't break down much, but they can break down a little bit. But also, [00:36:00] rods are faster these days than they used to be. In general, rods are quite a bit faster and stiffer. So, I think it's probably a combination of both, but I think it's more just the more common tapers today are faster than the older rods. But I wouldn't hesitate to use those older rods. They're certainly gonna still work well and maybe they're a little slower and maybe that'll be nice.
I actually do think rod action makes a difference when teaching someone to [00:36:30] cast. And you will get varying opinions on this. There are people that say that a faster action, stiffer rod is better for teaching, and I am absolutely not in agreement with that. And most of the good casting instructors I know don't agree either. I think that a slower rod is going to be much better to teach someone to cast, mainly because they can feel the rod flex and bend more. And you know, it's that tactile feeling that helps people get the hang [00:37:00] of casting. In fact, often when someone is really struggling, either fishing or casting in a class, I'll overline a rod, I'll put a line size too heavy on the rod, which will make it bend a little bit more and will allow the caster to feel the rod bend a little bit more, particularly on the back cast where they're not always looking at the back cast. So, I absolutely think that a slower rod is better. But, you're gonna get [00:37:30] varying opinions on this, so this is only my opinion.
Here's an email from Hayden. "I've been fly fishing for a couple years with the Orvis Clearwater 9 foot, 6-weight, and I've loved it for everything from small trout to river walleye. I'm still fairly new to the silent sport, but I'm hooked and know this will be a lifetime pursuit of learning and fun. I have a little boy who's just about 5 who I've taken fishing with a worm and a bent pin for a hook with a cork bobber, and [00:38:00] I know eventually I'd like to start teaching him on how to fly fish. My assumption is that it would be best to him to start with a relatively light rod, like a 3-weight, but really don't know if it's best to get him started on that light rod or is a 4 or 5-weight okay for a young boy? Does it make sense to look for a used Recon or something so that it won't be just a rod for the boy to learn on, but something he could use for small streams for his whole life? Or is it better to look for a cheap entry-level fly rod that may [00:38:30] only last a couple of seasons? Thank you for all the great info you provide and for the reference to, 'No one expects the Spanish Inquisition,' several weeks back generally made me laugh out loud."
Well, Hayden, I think that you don't wanna saddle...you know, if you really think your son is gonna take to fly fishing, you don't wanna saddle him with a really inexpensive rod because, honestly, they don't cast very well, and it's gonna be a little bit frustrating [00:39:00] for him. You wanna start him on a decent rod, maybe one of your rods that you don't use anymore, or as you said, a used rod. I don't think you need to go up to the Recon level. You know, something like the Clearwater or an Encounter would be fine. And you don't wanna saddle a kid with too short of a rod. You know, a 7.5 with 3-weight for a kid is fine, but people seem to think they need a 5 or 6-weight rod for kids.
And the difference in weight is really a [00:39:30] matter of ounces between, you know, a 6-foot and 7, 7.5, 8-foot, even 9-foot rod. So, the weight isn't that much different. And shorter rods are harder to cast. And so, you don't wanna hinder the casting ability of a kid by giving him some little novelty short rod. So, you know, anything 4, 5-weight is good, even a 3-weight, 6-weight, possibly, depends on how, you know, big your kid is and how [00:40:00] strong he is. But, you know, all those rods will work. Just don't settle for some light, so-called kid's rod because they're just not very practical.
Mike: Tom, this is Mike from Mosier, Oregon, and I'm calling about polarized glasses. I loved that podcast, but would like some your opinion and clarification on a couple things that were not covered. I use prescription progressive lenses [00:40:30] for daily use, and I also have some prescription progressive sunglasses that I use for driving, but they're a flat lens and not really suitable for fishing. And so, the progressives I have both have reading, a mid-level, or a mid-distance, and a distance, and they're progressive, and they're great. I'm curious for your sunglasses for fishing, are your progressives just distance with readers or are they fully progressive [00:41:00] with a mid-distance?
And then when I go fishing, I usually use contacts with non-prescription fishing glasses, and then I put some clicks readers right over the sunglasses to tie on flies and it works pretty well, it's a little cumbersome. So, my question is, what are the advantages and disadvantages of using a fully prescription sunglasses, progressive sunglasses versus contacts with non-prescription [00:41:30] glasses? And what do you see as the advantages and disadvantages of that? And I love the podcast. Thanks very much.
Tom: So, Mike, there are advantages and disadvantages to wearing contacts instead of prescription polarized glasses. The big advantage is that you can buy a pair of high-quality polarized sunglasses and not have to worry about paying for the prescription upcharge. If you're totally comfortable with [00:42:00] contact lenses, wearing them all day, then that's probably a good way to go. You're still gonna need readers likely to tie on a fly. But, you know, that works just fine that way. I did it for years.
I'm now wearing Bajío's Progressive Sunglasses and I was a little bit hesitant about...because I wear progressives and I was a little bit hesitant about the ability of someone [00:42:30] to build a pair of progressive lenses that allowed me to tie on a fly and allowed me to see fish at distance. And I have to say that I'm really, really happy with them. The progressive lenses are as good as my regular day-to-day glasses and they're polarized, so I don't need another pair of sunglasses to tie on a fly or to read a map or whatever. So, I wouldn't hesitate, think [00:43:00] a good quality, progressive, and polarized sunglasses if they can meet your prescription. You know, some prescriptions they have trouble getting, but mine is not the easiest prescription to handle and I was really happy with what they did with my pair. So, I wouldn't hesitate if you're interested in that.
All right. That is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Brandon about fishing in exotic [00:43:30] Central Park. So, my guest today is Brandon Dale. And I met Brandon the other day in Orvis, New York. I had heard about him. And Brandon has a very unique guiding service. Brandon guides in Central Park, fly fishing in Central Park. Are you the only fly fishing guide in Central Park, Brandon?
Brandon: I am. I have a buddy who actually teaches fly casting lessons in the park, but I'm the only guide [00:44:00] in New York State who actually guides on the major bodies of water in Central Park on the fly.
Tom: Now did you have to get a special permit to do that?
Brandon: Correct, yep. So, I'm a licensed guide in New York State. I'm actually licensed as a hunting guide, and a camping guide, and a hiking guide as well.
Tom: Wow.
Brandon: But I really just wanted to kind of focus my fishing efforts on pretty much just Carp In The Park.
Tom: Carp In The Park. And so let's talk about Carp In The Park. How hard are they to find in [00:44:30] the park and, you know, what do you look for?
Brandon: Yeah, man, I think, one of the things, so I started really fishing for carp intentionally probably about seven years ago when I first moved to the city. And it kind of blew my mind open whenever I was going down there actually, just to sort of look for bass and panfish, some of the local species that you think of in a pond and I just saw boils of, like, these large 10 to, like, 15-pound fish and I was like, "I need to learn how to catch these." And I brought a [inaudible 00:44:58] down with me the first time [00:45:00] actually and hooked one on a bread fly, straightened my hook, and completely, like, shot my line backwards and I was pretty much hooked from there on in trying to figure out this carp game because it's a really special thing to be able to do in the middle of the city, and the population is great. So, I'd be happy to talk down and sort of give a breakdown of each of the major ponds because all the populations of carp and sort of the species even are sort of different depending on where you're at in the park.
Tom: Okay. And you don't worry about [00:45:30] spot blowing, you don't worry about over pressuring the resource in Central Park.
Brandon: You know, that's actually a great question and it's something I thought a lot about because whenever I launched the guide service, which like I said, I've been fishing for them for a while here, but I lost the guide service two years ago. And my initial thinking was, I've actually yet to see another fly angler in the park when fishing for carp. And I've known that there are definitely people who have done it. Like, I actually read a blog 10 years ago by this guy named Bill Henry, [00:46:00] who is really, like, the OG, the original gangster of, like, urban park fishing, all species on the fly. And I remember reading his blog, like, whenever I was even thinking about coming to New York City for graduate school. And so, I knew people were fly fishing for these species here.
But when I opened service I was sort of, like, unlike floating any, you know, big river like the Madison or really any river where your spot is sort of, like, you know, a hidden secret. It's pretty easy to pick it apart from my photos, I'd say. But I think the beautiful thing about it [00:46:30] is that, you know, you gotta put your time in. The carp there are definitely not gonna give it up. And you know, we'll talk more about why that is the case, but I think a lot of people see a lot of carp in media and fly fishing world.
And usually the water's clear, you can see probably about 3 inches down. That's about the visibility at the best, which is like early spring. And from now basically until, I don't know, probably about end of August, there's gonna be so much algal bloom across the water that you'll be lucky to see, like, half an inch of visibility. And so, it's [00:47:00] a really tough, very technical fishery. And I think it's one of those things that sort of gave me a little bit of peace. But also, I think ultimately, if we had more people fly fishing there, I'd be more pleased than I would be about, like, spot burning or anything because I think the more people who are there, sort of, just enjoying the resource, I think the more we're gonna actually begin to, sort of, protect this urban fishery that really is special.
Tom: Yeah, and again, to take pressure off the trout streams, I mean, you go...
Brandon: Exactly.
Tom: ...a couple arms away in the catskills and, you know, some days it seems like half [00:47:30] the population of New York City is fishing there, and yet nobody's with you in Central Park...
Brandon: That's exactly it.
Tom: ...catching these giant fish that are a hell of a lot of fun on a fly rod.
Brandon: Yeah, I mean, it's pretty rare to catch a fish in fresh water. It's gonna take you into your backing maybe more than once. And with the backdrop of like Bethesda Fountain, as you're looking out over downtown, Midtown Manhattan, it's a once in a lifetime experience. And so, [00:48:00] for me it was, like, as soon as that happened I was like, "Hmm, am I gonna go up to [inaudible 00:48:03] an hour away, or am I gonna ride a bike or catch a bus for 10 minutes, and, like, where am I backing out on [inaudible 00:48:10]?"
Tom: So, let's talk a bit because you don't have good visibility and that's something I think a lot of us who are used to carp fishing, you know, we get spoiled. We have clear water areas where we can actually see the whole fish and see their body [00:48:30] language. And so, tell me how you approach this, you know, how do you see 'em, and how do you present to 'em if you got such low visibility?
Brandon: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's exactly the word. You said presentation, and I think that is spot on for how I catch these fish. Like I said, it started a while ago, but it was actually one of my roommates and good fishing buddies who is actually a birder who came [00:49:00] with me and brought binoculars and we eventually started tag teaming to where, like, he would spot a fish with his binoculars and sort of, you know, be like, "Okay, give a cast 11 feet," or, like, you know, "11:00, 50 feet out, like, to the right." And like, after honing that down, we're basically blind casting them for a while. But it really did just take time to sort of begin, to sort of read, like, wave form of the sort of movement.
So, like, on cruising carp, for example, even though you can't necessarily see them and a lot of times you can't, especially before the sun comes out or if it's, like, a sort of season [00:49:30] like the summer where there's no visibility, you can read the wake form. And that's, like, really important in cloudy sort of murky carp fishing conditions. And so, part of it has been really just trying to identify like, "Is that a cruising carp that's head facing to the right or is it head facing to the left, is it quartering to or quartering away? And the wake form really does give that away after just time and time again beginning to see it.
And it's also a lot of messed up opportunities, right? Like, you know, I thought it was a little more to the right, so I've given a cast out and, you know, I thought that I was 6 inches off over on [00:50:00] the side and actually the fish was quartering to, and so, like, sort of blocking these mental images in. And so, that sort of allowed me to sort of think about, like, "Okay, this is a fish that's moving across, and that's the cruising fish example, which it's usually about the wake form and the direction of the V and also the size of that V that they're kind of kicking up." But, for let's say cooping fish, which we can talk extensively about because I think that's one of the coolest part about this fishery is that they've done an amazing dry fly scene. And I think that's because there's so much forge just inherently there.
And we'll talk about all [00:50:30] the hatches, which a lot of them are natural, but there are also some, you know, manmade hatches for sure with the tourist season that come in and pocket this area with bread. There are also an avid sort of, like, European angling scene that's there as well. And so, they actually will go and sort of, like, you know, do conventional sort of European style carping. And so, with that there's an entire, like, variety of food sources.
But to get back to your question about presentation, so I sort of break it up into, like, the major categories of carp. If I'm fishing a tailing carp, [00:51:00] which is sort of when I'm guiding someone that's the last...I think about it all in case odds percentage and that's the lowest case percentage odds. But I think it's an important skill for teaching clients in case they wanna go and carp somewhere that is not in a place where you can see the carp necessarily because they're oftentimes all over these urban ponds and the visibility is not good, so people don't think you can target them on the fly rod.
But I think that specifically is a technique that I've developed that it's been working. And basically, so it's reading the bubbles that's, like, the standard. And once you sort of read [00:51:30] that bubble line, I'll use a combination of the drag and drops, so carp on the fly, like, the sort of media mogul who like, "There's just these incredible, like, glass clear lakes that are just awesome." He sort of like...it pioneered these drag and drop method as well as, you know, Dieter and Reynolds and all the other, sort of, OG carpers. But I sort of took that knowledge and was like, "Okay, well I can't see the fish," so, like, the ability to be able to, like, drag it and stop it when I think I'm intersecting it, I'm not gonna have any feedback because I can't see when the take [00:52:00] is actually happening. And so, what I did was actually combine the, sort of, insight that I was seeing so many rising fish consistently taking things and sampling stuff on the surface that I'll actually run a dry dropper for I'd say about 95% of my fishing [crosstalk 00:52:13].
Tom: A dry dropper. Dry dropper.
Brandon: Yeah, a dry dropper for carp. Dry dropper for carp is the way to go. And it's funny because I'll use that actually on a lot of, like, clearwater fisheries as well, just because I think it gives people the advantage of being able to really detect strikes. And so, I'll [00:52:30] usually run a pretty long dropper. So, like, excuse me, my point fly will essentially be anywhere between, depending on how deep the water is and how deep I think the fish that is mudding is, anywhere from a foot to about 4 feet.
And usually I'll try to give excess always, like, by at least two or three X the depth of what I'm thinking I'm gonna get at for where the fish is actually mudding. And on the dropper I run a bunch of different types of, like, pretty highly buoyant patterns. And they're essentially, like, white beetle flies. But, then I also tie some, like, white mulberries. And [00:53:00] the one that I call the Big Apple is basically just a big white, like, the beetle pattern about a size like 6 to 10 depending on hook size and how picky they're being that day.
Tom: Is that a bread imitation, this big white beetle?
Brandon: It is. It is. It's funny though. It's a bread imitation, but honestly it works better than mulberry flies. And so, I think what it is, is I will scale back the dubbing that I'll put underneath it, so whenever I think it's, like, a peak bread hatch, [00:53:30] for example, like, there's certain areas where the fish would be more prone to sort of, like, come up for bread versus the mulberry. So, like, in places where there are no mulberry trees, I've, like, consistently tried to get them to come up. But it makes sense, they're not acclimated to seeing them there and so they don't come up with the same ferocity on it. But with a red fly that kind of covers the gamut, I'll actually just cut off a lot of my dubbing when I need it to replicate like a mulberry, or tie it sparsely with dubbing, or increase the dubbing when I need it to sort of undulate on the surface of the water a little bit more like [00:54:00] a wet piece of bread or something.
So, it kind of depends and they're super versatile, which I love that piece about it. And the good thing is they float. They can basically hold up, you know, at biggest like a size 4. Like, I use a lot of the, like, Gamakatsu, has, like, these Glo Bug hooks that's like one of the best ones. And then the Orvis 3X strong pro jig downturned eye hook size 8. Big fans just because those are the only two hooks that I've been able to find that, like, can consistently hold fish. And we can talk more about that too, but I think because after you hook a fish, [00:54:30] half the battle is landing them and the conditions there are brutal and so you have to be pretty tough on these fish. So, I'm pretty much casting 8, 9, 10 weights minimum. And we can talk more about why that is the case.
So yeah, I'll basically run some variation of length between the dropper and make my cast. And so, if I see a bubble line that's moving from left to right, I'll sort of predict that, that fish is nose down and moving, let's say, from left to right. So I'll have the client cast about a foot out in [00:55:00] front of that, maybe more if I need more time for the fly to drop if we think they're deeper. And instead of doing the drag and drop where you'd kind of consistently pull it and then let it suspend down in front of the fish, which is more of the traditional drag and drop, and then you'd see they eat and then set the hook, because of you don't have any visibility, you can't see your dropper at all.
And so, really, it's a combination of method where you're actually casting across the fish and then sort of slowly moving. And I'm saying this is the hard part that's hard to communicate across a voice. But, it's not a strip [00:55:30] and it's not moving in the same sense that you'd be pulling your fly line in. It's ostensibly as if you were...Like, the best description would really be, like, if you're tight line nymphing, for example, and you're sort of just following your indicator, tracking it with a raw tip, it's moving slow, right? Like, once you sort of downshift and you're into that deep water and you really kind of see your fly settle down into the column and it's moving at that bottom surface level just, like, way slower, you're really just slowly dragging. You're putting a little bit of tension, so it's not a free line, like there's [00:56:00] contact all the time.
And so, because of that, you're able to get a visual indication because you're imparting slight motion to the indicator towards you or towards the direction of your rod tip, and also, you're in a little bit of tension, sort of you're coming in and out of tension with the bottom dropper. And what happens is oftentimes you'll just see the indicator jerk back slowly or just stop. Sometimes it's very subtle because it's a huge delay. But it's been the only way that I've been able to successfully target subsurface feeding carp without vision because otherwise [00:56:30] there's so much slack in the system if you just cast it out and, like, drop it in front of them, it has to be a really aggressive take and the fish has to run immediately away with it, and they're just too smart for that, like, truly.
They pick it up immediately, they know it's not food, they spit it out, and by the time you set the hook, the fish is long gone eating something else around the bottom, or, like, you maybe you foul the fish and, you know, no one wants that either. So, it's really just, like, a better way to stay in contact with your nymph the entire time. And the strike detection is I think what really allows for a lot of these fish to be hooked [00:57:00] because just like it gives you "vision" under the water even though you can't actually see them.
Tom: All right. Let's back up a little bit. So, when you're drawing, and I would call it drawing the fly, you know, drawing it slowly, are you doing this with a high rod or are you doing it with your floating line on the surface?
Brandon: Yeah, that's a good question. So, I actually like...So, it depends. If we're doing it, let's say close in, like, [00:57:30] sub-25 feet, I like a high rod because the strike needs to be just much quicker because you have a...And here you can make a faster strike when they're close in. And so, in that instance I'll do, you know, like the "trout set." Just like an overhead set, because I think it's a little more intuitive for clients and then also I think that you have the ability to sort of read the indicator that close up.
And so, if a fish is gonna take it, you can actually make that strike quickly enough to where you can actually get them before they spit it out. And so, [00:58:00] high is oftentimes an option, but generally speaking, if most of the places have terrible tree cover, so your back is, like, in...you're either in the trees or you have lots of, like, tourists behind you, any combination of those things, that would prevent you from striking high, just in case it did come over behind you. And also, like, you oftentimes can't lift your rod that high up, like, if you're in the trees. And so, a low rod I actually like, and instead of sort of using...you're not using your line hand, like, let's say you're right-handed, holding the rod with your right, you're not [00:58:30] actually drawing the line in with your left hand, you're actually moving the rod and so, like, your cast, it's completely got the entire length of the fly line out and that way you are already ready to set because there's built-in tension to the rod. So, it's, like, as soon as you're in contact, it's a quick 1-inch movement that basically just sets it. And that's all for shorthand stuff.
So, when it's long out, like, let's say we're making cast, there are a couple spots where you can actually have some good casting room and target, sort of, shadows and also just again, those B-forms of fish where you're doing that same method and sort of dragging it across, like, a [00:59:00] cruising fish's lane and then, sort of, continuing that pull, and so, in that instance, you're actually drawing with your hand and your strip set because you've got a lot more line out, there's gonna be delay if you try to trout set, so you really strip set in that moment. And that's, like, your rod tip's basically on the water as if you're saltwater fishing, trying to wait for that striper to come in and just strip set it in.
Tom: Okay. So let's back up a little bit more because I know people are gonna wanna learn your technique. So, what pound test or [00:59:30] what tippet are you doing to the dry fly and then what are you using for the dropper?
Brandon: So, all of my leaders, I build pretty, like, high turnover leaders just because, like, we do a lot of roll casting. And in general I feel like a lot of urban fishing is pretty much...if you don't have, like, a good roll cast that can cast out to like 20 feet, it's like the first thing you should definitely do to practice just because you don't often have good back casting in a lot of urban fisheries. And so, I'll do basically a saltwater setup [01:00:00] where I'll do 44 feet of about 40-pound, like, Maxima, or a Berkley Big Game, or something like that, just a big, heavy, thick, very, sort of, kinetically homologous line that's gonna be pretty tight to my fly line. And then I'll step down to about 2 feet of, like, 20-pound fluoro. And then I'll go to a tippet ring. And I use tippet rings, Tom. I can still tie knots, though.
But, I think especially given there's so much debris in the water and so many things you get [01:00:30] stuck on, the number of times that we, like, actually get tangled up in, like, a tree branch making a cast, I actually will carry three rods, like when I'm taking clients out. And it sort of feels...Like, my last client actually told me, "Wow, this is like dove hunting in Argentina," because he made a roll cast, got stuck in a tree, and I handed him another one because there was a pot of fish rising right there. And so, I'm like, "Here, take this rod. We're not gonna blow this pot up, just cast again, new rod." And it really is something that, like, even fishing solo by myself, I carry at least two rods for that exact same purpose.
And so, [01:01:00] then basically from that 20-pound, a 2 feet of 20-pound, I'll go to a tippet ring. I like the medium. I've tried the large ones before, like the Orvis large, and they sink the dry a little bit and they pull the leader a little more under than I'd like. I think they're made for, like, saltwater applications where it's completely under the water. And like, sometimes I'll fish the dry very high up on the leader. And so, I like the medium, small. And the small you kind of run out of room because with a 20-pound, sort of, end of your leader and [01:01:30] then like I run 15-pound tippet all fluoro. That's sort of like my standard go-to.
And sometimes, especially if the carp have been pressured, like right now there are a lot of people fishing conventional and, you know, they'll throw bread out and put bread on hooks and sort of cast out and things of that nature to fish as well, and they get very wary. And so, generally speaking, I can get away with pretty heavy tippet, like 15. I've run 20 before whenever I'm fishing in an area that's like really, really heavily wooded. But if they're very pressured and, like, you're, like, kind of dapping flies down onto them, I'll [01:02:00] go down to, like, 12, 10-pound fluoro, but I really try not to. When I first started, I fished 4X and that was a mistake. Oh, that was a mistake. I was like, "What am I doing?" And so, I use the 15-pound fluoro pretty consistently everywhere. And I'll basically put on about 4 to 5 feet of that and then use that as sort of the full length.
So then from there...This is a piece that also took some time to figure out. I needed to have a leader or a sort of dropper set up where I could have something [01:02:30] that was adjustable because you're in sometimes, like, 6 inches of water where you can see a fish mudding around, but you can't see the actual top or bottom or head of the fish, you're just still reading bubbles, but you can see that the water is certainly shallow. And then, you know, you could also be in, like, a 3-foot, like, stretch where it's just bottom and you can just see bubbles all over that. Like, there are a bunch of fish feeding in it. And instead of having to cut off and retie in the middle of all that, I need to find a way where I could adjust the dropper and still not have it slide down.
So, this [01:03:00] has been sort of a work in progress, but I'll actually throw a loop over my dropper and then basically cut off the line between my nymph and my dropper and then tie a blood knot as a stopper. And essentially, I'll do that at maybe, like, two places. And this is like a pretty new development, but I found that works really well because even if there is some slide, the blood knot still holds the, sort of, dry fly whenever it does, if ever it does slide down. The problem with the slide method, and it's not perfect, is that you really have to inspect [01:03:30] your leader and your tippet after you catch a fish on it because, you know...I mean, the biggest fish landed a 29-inch carp that was probably close to 15 or 20 pounds. And you know, from that fish, I was like, "Yeah, it doesn't matter what this tippet looks like, I'm cutting it off and tying a new one on." Because there's just so much tension on it that it's got memory and everything and I'm sure that, like, it's not worth losing a fish over.
So that's the problem with the slide because if you tie a fixed [inaudible 01:03:55.121], it can work, but you're doing a lot more retying. And, like, so much of carp hunting, [01:04:00] especially in New York City, is really head hunting. I'm an avid hunter. And so, like, I think for me, one of the pieces that was also a huge appeal of carp hunting was that it was really, like, it's super active. It's like spot and stalk turkey hunting or any other type of, like, you know, deer hunting when you're spot and stalk, etc., or even bird hunting, you're really, like, tapped into that, sort of, like, reading the water, adapting to whatever the fish are doing. And because of that, you know, you might find a pot of fish that are feeding and are cruising and within your range, but if you've got to retie your dropper, you might miss that opportunity. [01:04:30] So, I think having something that's a little adaptable is something I need to figure out and that's been working well for me.
Tom: So, you're just threading the dry fly on a piece of tippet and then putting blood nuts at either end so that it can slide?
Brandon: Correct. So, essentially I'm making a loop. So, essentially, going into the eye of the hook once, and then coming back out, and then essentially making a loop that wraps around. And so, you simply have, like, a hitch onto your dry fly. And so, then whenever [01:05:00] you need to slide it up and down, it's not free sliding, you need to take the hitch off and then open the hitch, loosen it a little bit, and then sort of adjust as needed, but the blood knots are stoppers. I have tried that before where you just do, like, an overhand loop in it, and in that instance it just provides way too much friction on the tippet, oftentimes you'll break tippet off just because if you get a big fish, it's just gonna pull straight down and the friction just tears through your tippet.
Tom: Okay. Do you have a blog or something where you show this setup? [01:05:30]
Brandon: I have a website and I haven't put this on that. But I definitely should because it's something that, like, this is the only way that I found has worked for this method. And so, I can add something to my website, which is nyccarpinthepark, which is the name of the guide service.
Tom: Make sure. We wanna make sure we give people that address, nyccarpinthepark.com.
Brandon: And carpintheparknyc routes the same.
Tom: Oh, carpintheparknyc. [01:06:00] Okay.
Brandon: Yep.
Tom: All right. So, tell me a little bit more about these dry flies that you're using. I assume you're tying 'em yourself.
Brandon: Yep. Absolutely, I [crosstalk 01:06:15]...
Tom: Tell me how you make them.
Brandon: So, I will run generally about three or four different styles of dry flies. Like I said, the Big Apple is sort of like a go-to sort of secret pattern. It's high floating. And honestly, it kind [01:06:30] of actually has a base that starts off kind of like a Morrish Mouse. Or sorry...no, yeah, the Morrish Mousing mousing pattern. I was trying to remember if it's like the Master Splinter or the Morrish. But basically it's a foam strip that basically you, sort of, whip to your hook. And I'll usually double up a foam strip. And so, this is like, you know, a 4-inch long, maybe, like, a fourth of an inch wide piece that I'll, like, double-back onto the body of the hook to really build some buoyancy. I'll throw then basically, like, maybe a 2-inch piece [01:07:00] of, sort of like an Estaz chenille. I like the cheese color, something that's, like, light colored and cream [crosstalk 01:07:08] .
Tom: Like bread crust color.
Brandon: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Could be bread, it's just light colored because also I think one of the things too that I realized is that during the peak of the spawn, I've seen a number of fish really just, like, devour eggs. And so, I think what happens is, I'll have...oftentimes these will eventually start to sink because they're only so [01:07:30] buoyant for so long before they start to really just take in water that locks into that foam. When they hang in the middle of the subsurface in the middle of the film, I've had fish come over and crush 'em because I think they see a little bit of that chenille and it kind of maybe looks a bit of an egg sack. Like, I've cast to fish that are, like, on the outside of a spawning group. And like, I've seen fish come over and smash it.
And you know, whether or not they think it's bread, a young premature mulberry, or a little egg sack, no idea, but makes me feel good. And so, I think it's one of those things where, like, [01:08:00] it just sort of grabs the fish's attention. I think it's in the color profile and around the size that they're used to seeing. And then I'll double that over. So, basically, I'll lash that in the chenille and then, sort of, fold the other half of the foam over the body and then, sort of, throw a couple whip finishes over it, and then double back the foam so I build a little head, kind of like of mouse ears on a mouse fly, and then cut that off on the backside, whip it again, and then that's pretty much ready to go.[inaudible 01:08:28] two whip finishes in.
[01:08:30] I think one of the things too that really struck me when I was first getting into the carping game is I don't use any dry fly solvents. I don't use, like, dry dip, Fly Agra, any, like, floatant or anything. I'm seriously convinced that they can smell something, whether it's, like, the actual powder, whether it's the Desca gel or the Desca powder, whatever. I think that they really do pick up on it because I've had instances where I've seen fish come up and essentially lip the fly. And [01:09:00] what that means is they'll come up and put their mouths on it, not directly in the orifice of their mouth, but on the side. And I literally think they're tasting it. And they use the barbells to also taste around it. And you know...
Tom: I had that happen this morning to me on a mulberry fly.
Brandon: Oh my God. Exactly. And it's so hard not to strike when that happens. It's like...
Tom: Well, I did strike.
Brandon: Well, it's like, I don't blame you, man. It's like, that moment, it's just...oh, man. It's like, all time to stand still. You're just like, "What [01:09:30] the heck?" And so, I think after having that happen a bunch, whenever I was using mulberry flies and the Big Apple and other types of, like, surface flies, pretreated and, sort of, like, immediately treated right before with floatant and then switching over to one that didn't float. And even though I don't have good visibility, they come up without hesitation, just take it. And like, time after time, I'm like, "This is insane." And I do think that that depends too, like, certain fisheries, like, I think on a river that might be maybe less the case because they're just more current [01:10:00] to move, like, the scent of something like that off. So, if you pass the fly a couple times on the water...
Tom: Yeah, it could be. Yeah, yeah.
Brandon: And you might have some time, like, right, like after you fish a fly for a couple hours, I'm sure that that scent does dissipate. So, I think that just for me though, I personally do not use floatant or...And I also, you know, usually when fishing [inaudible 01:10:17] fly, I will grease my leader and stuff when I'm fly fishing for trout or something, to really make sure I can get, you know, good [inaudible 01:10:23.409] and all that jazz. But I don't even do that for carp. But, again, just to, sort of, really prevent any sort of weird scent [01:10:30] that might be sort of off-putting. Yeah.
Tom: So nymphs, what sunken fly do you like?
Brandon: So, my kind of go-to is kind of a combo. I use, like, three flies primarily. And really these are my three flies that I use in all, like, carp waters, all urban, like, cloudy carp waters and they work. Like, I fish a bunch in Providence, Rhode Island, and also in Vermont a bunch too, and even, like, some places in Connecticut for carp as well. [01:11:00] And I think that, like, pretty much in all of those systems these have worked and I think for different reasons, which I think I appreciate.
One of them is essentially, like, a...So, imagine, like, a sort of un-beaded hare's ear that's pretty shaggy. Like shaggy hare's ear, probably size, like, 10 to...Like, I tie them in 8s is the biggest, but anywhere between, like, 12 to 8-ish size. And basically it's got a very shaggy body and on the backside they've got about a 2 to 3-inch squirmy worm tail. [01:11:30] And then I'll put a bead chain eye on that front as well, so it'll be inverted to where the hook shank is sort of pointing upwards. And I think that the important part of this fly too, I think, which I kind of had to figure out, which it was painful because I was oftentimes just tying it like I would, you know, a regular squirmy worm where it doesn't necessarily matter so much the orientation of where the tail of the squirmy worm comes off, but actually tie it to where it's inverted. So, like, it's in perpendicular with the point of the hook, so that way [01:12:00] whenever it's inverted as it's coming down to the water column, that worm is actually, like, suspending and sort of fluttering down. And once the fly comes down to the bottom of the water with the bead chain eyes resting on the bottom, that tail is still up.
And I think that's worked really well for me, both for cruising fish, for [inaudible 01:12:16] that are, like, maybe eating something on the surface. And instead of taking my surface fly, I've had a number of times where they've actually turn around and take the dropper, which is, again, why I also fish with a dry dropper all the time because sometimes fish just don't want to eat your size [01:12:30] of the Big Apple. Maybe you're throwing a size 8 or something that might just be a little too big than the mulberry that they're looking for, especially if it's young mulberries on a tree that you're sort of just starting to get berries on. That happens often. And so, that's pretty much my go-to for I'd say pretty much most patterns.
And the color I'll vary. I'll use, like, traditional sort of hare ear, like, dubbing, but then I'll also take it and sort of have, like, black. So, like I said, in place of like hare's ear, I'll also use marabou. I think it breathes a little more in water and gives that, sort of, body a little more profile that's [01:13:00] a bit more slender. So, it actually comes into the column a lot faster. And then if I'm, like, targeting cruising carp a little bit more and think that, like, the fish are gonna be maybe more apt to sort of take my fly, I'll then use something that maybe has a little bit more bulk and sort of body like a hare's ear that's gonna be a little more suspending versus like the marabou is gonna drop pretty quickly. So, if I think I'm fishing in deeper water or something, again, with two or three rods, I can sort of have, like, three different, like, as you said, attitudes of that sort of [inaudible 01:13:27] sort of to read the [01:13:30] situation and put something on that would be best for the situation. And that's kind of the go-to. [crosstalk 01:13:34]
Tom: So for the marabou body, you're just winding it like you would ostrich herl or something?
Brandon: Oh, no. So, I'm actually taking...basically tearing a piece...let's say you get a pack of marabou and I'm actually taking a piece of those fibers and essentially tearing off, like, I'd say finger-full portions and actually, sort of, creating a dubbing noodle on my hook and wrapping that around. And I'm doing that because you can get it tighter on the hook and also have a slender [01:14:00] body profile, but you still have these, like, sort of buggy appearances that are, like, popping outwards a little bit more than just winding a little bit.
Tom: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Good.
Brandon: I mean, depending on...it's a guide fly. Like, I feel like all these flies are very...My box looks like, you know, a second grader tied them all and it's because they get eaten by the trees. They get eaten by the trees. And so, it's gotta be something pretty quick. And as long as the hook is good and my knots are good, we're [01:14:30] gonna land that fish, but more often than the trees get it. And so, I like that because it has a...you can brush it out too. Like, if I'm feeling fancy, I'll brush all these out with a toothbrush or something on the bench to kind of give it that buggy appearance. But after a fish eats it once or twice, it looks more than fine.
And so, I'll tie those in, sort of, three colors, like, sort of natural, hare's ear, olive for when I'm on, like, a place with maybe slightly better visibility or someplace like early season. A lot of these urban ponds have actually slightly better water clarity and [01:15:00] so you can sort of get away with an olive if they can see it. Like, there will be instances where you cast right in front of a fish and the fish doesn't refuse and doesn't take your fly. Nine out of 10, like, it didn't see your fly. And it's got no smell, so of course, it's like totally not gonna be able to locate that unless it's right on its nose. And so, I'll oftentimes start off with black, especially now in the season. But those three colors have done me pretty well.
And then I also tie that fly weightless and so instead of having, like, bead chain eyes, and those are small bead chain eyes, but I use medium as well, [01:15:30] depending on, again, like the mood of the carp, like sometimes they're really deep. Like, when it gets really hot out, probably in the next couple weeks, a lot more fish are gonna go to the bottom and start feeding a lot more on the surface...or sorry, on the bottom versus the surface. And I think that that's when I'll switch up and, sort of, upgrade my bead chain eyes to get a little deeper.
And so, I'll tie these weightless as well though, so when I'm fishing a dry fly, dry dropper set up and, like, I'm casting to cruising fish, it really kind of hangs in that, sort of, mid-column range unless the fish have the opportunity to intersect it instead [01:16:00] of just dropping straight down and being suspended on a 90-degree from the indicator. So, that's pretty much...I don't actually have a name for that fly just because I feel like it's something that anyone could have made up and used.
Tom: Well, it's like the hybrid, like that carp hybrid.
Brandon: It's exactly like that. It's a sized-down hybrid. And that's one thing too that I like because all the carp flies, like in most of the books too, I tried a lot of those, and yeah, like, you really...I had to size [01:16:30] down everything. I'd say the average size in my box if you were to take the average is probably 8, and that's 8 leaning 10, I'd say. And the only time that I can get bigger than that is whenever it's, like, peak mulberry season and then you can really get away with like some size 4s. And I've been on fish where I've had to cut back the mulberries, the size, because they're just rejecting it on how big the actual, sort of, body of the mulberry appears to be. And so, it's pretty nuts, but subsurface flies.
[01:17:00] Another one that I use pretty regularly is basically that same base body, and so, again, either a marabou or hare's ear, just something that's, like, a dark-colored chenille or, sort of, a marabou that's, like, buggy. And instead of doing, sort of, like, a squirmy worm on the back, I'll actually use, like, a mop. And usually I'll go with something that's, like, pretty bright, so, like, a neon green or even like a sort of cheese-colored mop. And those I'll use a lot during the spawn. So, if I see spawning fish, I'll pretty much always swap over to that because I really do think that they think it's like an egg. And [01:17:30] it's not a big mop. Like, I probably cut, I don't know, it's maybe a quarter of an inch or so, if that, of the actual butt of the mop is, like, there. And so, it really looks more like an egg sitting on the back of, like, a hare's ear more than, like, a traditional mop it's a little longer and has movement.
Tom: Oh, okay. Okay. Interesting. Interesting flies.
Brandon: And when they're really picky, I'll throw damsel fly nymphs, which I like a lot. I'd use those in rivers, especially in clear places. And basically that's, like, I use a lot of my, like, wild game and stuff that I caught and killed. [01:18:00] I, like, don't buy feathers anymore, which is nice. And so, this is turkey biots for the wings on the damsel flies, and then sort of pheasant tail sort of wrapped as the body with a little marabou on the backside, just like to sort of give you the length. And these are all tied in like size 8 to 10s, pretty small like damsel flies all in olive, black-ish color. And then, like, sucker spawn is another, sort of, go-to dropper.
Tom: Okay. What was I gonna ask you? I got lots of questions. [01:18:30] I can't remember. Oh, I know what it was. You talked about cruising fishing, and bubblers are fish that are feeding off the bottom, right, they're grubbing along the bottom, they're mudding, but you can't see the mud.
Brandon: Exactly, yep.
Tom: If you can't see in the water, are you looking for wakes for these cruising fish?
Brandon: Yep, that's exactly it. [01:19:00] And so, especially early mornings, it's very difficult when you don't have, like, sun to throw shadows on those fish because there are times, like, even though the clarity is bad, like if they're right on the surface of the water, you can see them. Like, sometimes the back will poke out, which is very helpful, but oftentimes you're seeing a wake. And so, like, depending on the size of that V wake, that'll tell me how high in the column the fish is. So, oftentimes I'll see a small wake on the water that's a V and I'll know, okay, that fish is actually probably anywhere between 3 [01:19:30] to 12 inches below the surface, so on the surface cruising, but not really on the top. But when it's a big, defined V with a point to it that also is pushing water, if you can't outright see a shadow because it's low light conditions or something or the visibility is just so bad, that's pretty clear, that fish is on the surface, within the top 4 to 5 inches of the water column because it's pushing that much more wake.
And so, targeting [01:20:00] those fish is super fun, actually, because usually I'll, like, try to time that to where we have some sun just because it's easier for clients to kinda see those fish. But even without being able to see their full body shape, the V is pretty strong. And I think it's a blessing and a curse somewhat because the algal blooms are so heavy and so you have this, like, sludge on the top of the water. But when a fish is really on a top surface, it makes a line and so you can actually read that line. And so, it's almost like, "Oh yeah, there he is," [01:20:30] like, follow the line and cast a foot in front of the line or 2 feet out in front of the line even if you can't see the full V because maybe it's a little shallower, but maybe it came up high and then kind of dropped back down.
And so, that's kind of a helpful thing on any water body that has, like, any sort of algal blooms that occlude the surface, really using that to your advantage is helpful, and the same thing for mudding fish. When a fish is actively mudding, and really kinda at the bottom, you'll see plumes of air coming up and it'll clear out a little pocket, and that pocket [01:21:00] will also shift and be, sort of, disseminated on a trail. And so, in some ways it's easier because when there's no bloom, like, any sort of algae on the top, if you don't see those bubbles and that erection, then you're kind of at a loss of right or left. But it's nice when you kinda have a little bit of, like, a footprint left over to target. And then we have a lot of kloopers [SP] too. So, that's the big part is actually like, I'll listen a lot [crosstalk 01:21:27]...
Tom: So, I don't really know the term klooper. You have to [01:21:30] educate me in this klooper thing.
Brandon: So kloopers are...I'll try to make the noise because I have some clients, I'm like, okay, if we're anywhere...because I'll be like scanning the water and just like, really...I'm a little tense about fishing, I guess, but we all are, I suppose. But I'm like, "If you hear any noise that sounds like...let me know because I'm listening for it but the, like, other people should be as well. And so, what happens is, I think this is especially early season, but [01:22:00] these fish will come up and essentially all along, especially places where fish have recently spawned or even where they're actively spawning, those eggs that are sort of being pushed out of the female as the males are, sort of, pushing around and, sort of, bumping eggs out to, sort of, try to fertilize, they're sticking and they have that little coat around the egg sac that's actually helping them grasp onto root structures and tree limbs and tips of leaves that are in the water. And fish will key in on that.
After let's say a fish came out of, you know, okay, it's done spawning, it's tired, it wants to [01:22:30] get food, oftentimes they'll eat their own eggs and so they'll actually come to the edge of the bank. I mean, like, you'll look down, and you'll be looking down at a fish that is, like, eating on the bank. Like, the back might be out of the water. And I have photos of this actually on my website, all the pictures of the fish where you can see the entire dorsal fin and half the fish out of the water, that's a klooping fish. And what they're doing is actually, they'll put their mouths to where they're at the junction of the water-air interface and sort [01:23:00] of actually eat, but, like, basically sort of try to suck off and slurp off whatever, sort of, biomass is stuck to the root structure and leaves around the edge of the banks and then on the surface as well.
Like, we'll have fish that eat on the surface and they'll sometimes make that like...noise as well. So, it's not just explicitly, like, on the bank, but it's really fish that are, like, actively, sort of, feeding at the air-water interface. And I found it oftentimes happens along the bank, but it's really any place where there's [01:23:30] fish or food that are basically sitting in the film that forced the fish to come up and take both some air and some water, and generally on downed logs and things of that nature, or root structures of overhanging trees. Like, it's funny because all the mulberry trees before there's like a big...Before the mulberries come, they have lots of roots that sort of hang out in them and we have a couple of willow trees as well and it's funny because these carp will be just tangled up in these willows spawning and you'll go and walk over to them after the chaos settles down and you'll [01:24:00] hear just...all over, and you're looking around and all you see is a pair of lips just hanging on to the wood of the willow that's submerged, just eating away.
And those are really tough fish to target. But I use a method called...I mean, I didn't make it. It's called dapping. I just dap basically flies oftentimes. And so, those are interesting because you literally have to put that fly, like, essentially on to where you think that the carp is gonna come up next onto the root structure. [01:24:30] But I mean, when that happens though, it's super exciting because, I mean, it's totally visual, you're right next to it, and you have no fly line out. So, it really is, like, battle royale because as soon as the fish takes off, and you're usually in the sticks, like, when you're doing this, you basically have to point the rod to it, let the fish go on this crazy run before you so you get fly line out because otherwise if you try to horse it in it'll break the rod or break your leader or snap off or any number of things. So, when it happens, it's exciting. It's very exciting.
Tom: Yeah. Now do you get [01:25:00] cottonwood fluff and seed-eating carp in Central Park?
Brandon: So, I have not seen...I've seen, like, basically...I have not seen them coming up on the cottonwood seed because they have a couple of cottonwood trees and I've not seen them eating the fluff, but I've seen them eating stuff inside of the fluff and maybe they are eating it and I just can't see it. [crosstalk 01:25:24]
Tom: But I think they're eating the seed. I think they're eating the seed off the fluff.
Brandon: Oh, well then that very well [01:25:30] could be the case. Yeah, I mean, I think that's...because I don't see them take the fluff. And so, I've always thought of maybe bugs caught in because it's usually in the back, sort of, eddies that are, you know, all the fluff gets blown to one side of the pond and it's just a bunch of this fluffy material all over the surface. And so, I don't see them coming up to eat the top stuff, but there is definitely activity and they're sipping something in there. And so, yeah, the seed makes a lot of sense.
Tom: Yeah, the seed is...
Brandon: But [crosstalk 01:25:53]...
Tom: ...often stuck to the fluff, you know, and then they eat the seed off the end of the fluff. [01:26:00]
Brandon: Huh. Yeah, well, I might have to work on some seed-replicating [crosstalk 01:26:08] flies.
Tom: Yeah. I was talking to Sean Combs this morning and he's got...he just uses...We're coming up with a pattern, just a bunch of white CDC on a hook with, like, a black head, you know, a little black bump of dubbing.
Brandon: The seed body?
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Brandon: [crosstalk 01:26:24]
Tom: We haven't tried it yet. We're thinking about it because we have some...we have a bunch of cottonwood-eating [01:26:30] carp in our area.
Brandon: That's cool. One of the absolute craziest dry fly eats that I had was, it was deep summer, so most fish are, again, not really feeding on the surface when it's really hot out. Like, I mean, it must have been 95 degrees in the middle of the day, so just scorching. But they have a set of lights sort of all over the park. And I was fishing this one particular light source that was basically just close enough to the water to where it could put out a sort of area where insects would gather. And [01:27:00] there were midges, just clusters of midgets all over.
And you could see the fish cruising back and forth. And I tried literally everything in my carp box. And I had my trout box with me too and threw on a Griffith's Gnat, and got straight into the boat immediately. And I was like, "Holy crap." And so, now, I will carry...I use the...it's the Tiemco steelhead scud-hook, and I'll use that and basically tie a Griffith's Gnat variation for that very specific purpose, and came [01:27:30] back the next day and caught that fish. But man, it's, like, insane to think about the size of forge though, because I mean, this was like a size 18 Griffith's Gnat, like, in terms of the size of, you know, the actual...the feathers. It was just insane that, like, they're keying in on something that small.
Tom: Now, let's talk about the mulberry hatch because that's something that you have, I know, and a lot of people have in their carp areas. How do you approach the mulberry hatch? [01:28:00]
Brandon: It's my absolute favorite time. And this year has been, like, spectacular. So, I will generally start to look for mulberries and like I said, I fish a bunch of places in Rhode Island and out outside of New York City, like everything within a four-hour stretch basically. And so, the mulberries come generally later there. I'm looking for 'em around now, July, to start kind of having mulberries. And maybe even early June, you can start seeing buds and stuff like that. And that's [01:28:30] generally been the case. But I think it's been so hot just in the city, in general, we have just so much accumulated heat that I think that they've been popping off a lot sooner. So, it was May when I saw fruits, fruiting buds, which I was like, "That's insane. What? This is, like, so early."
And then, yeah, I mean, we had, like, mulberry-eating fish at the end of May, and granted, they were small and so I'd say maybe a size 18 egg, an egg fly. [01:29:00] So, very tiny, very, very tiny. But it was enough to where fish were, at the very least, congregating around these areas and sort of anticipating something. And so, with that, my sort of approach for it is really always check the trees. And as I said, there are a bunch of trees in the park. And I'll do this anywhere I find mulberry trees and sort of keep, like, a mental log. Then I also write down, like, where the trees are that are earliest along and also latest along so I kind of have a sense like, "Okay, this is gonna progress throughout the season."
And like, I have a couple of trees...I've got three trees now that [01:29:30] are still green, like all of the butt berries are green. And I'm like, "Yes, this is gonna be great. They're around for at least another two weeks." And then I have other trees that are like, you know, you walk into the woods in an area where they're there and it smells like you're in a vineyard, it's ripe with, like, the fermenting sugars and the jet black berries everywhere, squirrels are everywhere, you have, like, you know, all these different types of bird life that are eating in the bushes. And so, it really does depend on the state of the tree.
But my general approach is I used to tie again the, [01:30:00] like, sort of Big Apple as, like, my major go-to for mulberry flies. And I would tie that in different colors. So, it's traditionally white, but I would tie it in green, I would tie it in sort of a purple, and basically use, you know, purple, like, rabbit fur, rabbit strips, and strip that off of the leather, and then basically use that as a baseline for my dubbing instead of, you know, sort of, Estaz egg or egg or whatnot. But I eventually wound up actually using these, like, sort of micro, like, cotton balls. And those worked really [01:30:30] well, especially if we're getting submerged, getting the sort of truly submerged mulberry because I do find that early season, I feel the harder and less ripe the berry is, I feel like there's less air and so they're more dense and they sink a lot quicker than the big black berries that are fully rip and they are big, they will hang in the water a little longer before they submerge, and they all submerge at some point.
But I've generally found that I needed to get something that was a little quicker to get down and then also, sort of, fish where the fish are actually [01:31:00] eating them because you'll see fish swirl around, but they're not actually on the surface. So there's, like, sort of, suspending flies. I'll fish basically dry dropper again, where I'll put a suspension fly on within a dry above it to give me a visual indication of the take. And so, that's worked pretty well. And so, again, those are all, like, sort of, pretty small, like, I'd say like, yeah, size...I can get away with like a 14, especially when they're, like, still green and stuff.
But, like, sometimes you have to go to size, like, 18. I do feel like on the surface is where they get more selective about [01:31:30] size. And so, like, subsurface, you can generally get away with a lot more variability. But once they really start keying in on...let's say I have more than just a couple of berries that are actually falling on the water and I see fish, I can watch them selectively coming up and eating stuff off the surface, that's whenever I will really switch over to basically an explicit mulberry pattern, a really replicative pattern.
There's this guy named on Instagram called Carp Stalker. I think it's called the Mojo Mulberry. I saw his pattern. He's down [01:32:00] I think in, like, Oklahoma on his, like, warm water fisheries and they have a pretty good mulberry hatch down there as well. And I saw this fly and I was like, "That's exactly what I need." Because I experimented with trying to wrap around a bunch of, sort of, sucker spawn variations and treating that with foam on the underbody to where it would rotate the sucker spawn down and have the foam sitting on the top, but it never really just looked enough like a mulberry, I think.
It really didn't have that same, sort of, neutral buoyancy or hat, sort of, riding in the column. And it also didn't have the texture. [01:32:30] And then I tried also threading glass beads, sort of those lightweight glass and plastic beads on line and whipping those to the hook to make the suspended fly, and that worked well enough, but it was just too cumbersome to tie. So, now basically the Mojo Mulberries essentially, like, I had a bunch of super, super thin strips of foam that basically you will tie probably about a half-an-inch section, you'll start in the middle of your hook. So, you'll give a thread base and then go about half-an-inch [01:33:00] section and sort of overlap several of these, like I'll say probably about 8 to 10 depending on how big you want the mulberry to be.
And sort of, like, your hair bug, you cut it all at the end and that's how you shape your fly, and so you really pack it in and tighten it. And so, you need, like, a pretty heavy denier, like, thread to do this because otherwise you'll break off. But you're really packing it in there around the hook shank and trying to keep your actual hook gap clear. That's why also we'll like sometimes, like, the wide gap hooks, just especially for surface flies. I actually really like the Orvis, the sort of tactical jig hooks. [01:33:30] They have a wider gap and so I like those a lot for this.
And so, I'll lash in my little piece of, like, the mulberry green tip, like, you know, the stem. I'll like throw on. I used to use fiber and sometimes I still will use fiber, but generally I'll use the sort of plastic legs for, you know, any sort of rubber legs fly. And so, I'll use, like, a thin variation of that because it'll hold water, especially if I'm trying to get it to really, like, be the cork. And I found that the problem with a lot of the other flies that I tied was they didn't really all have the plop. That, [01:34:00] like, characteristic plop is, like, so important, I think. And that's really where the fish get that sound and sort of sight image of that really loud and particular disturbance on the water. [crosstalk 01:34:12]
Tom: Yeah, they hit the water with a pretty good plop.
Brandon: Oh, yeah. And it's funny because I'll have clients where I'm like...okay, we'll go to a tree and I know there's fish there and I'm like, "Hey, just cast." And they're like, "Oh, but there's no fish," and I was like, "I know," because I'll get there and, you know, I'll always start trips by being like, "You know what, the most exciting thing I think at [01:34:30] fly fishing is head hunting and being able to see a fish take anything. That's why we fish dry flies, right?" And so, for me, I'm a head hunter and I think being able to do that is kind of how I operate my guide trips and so I want people...And people like it, so they're like, "Oh, yeah, that sounds great. We're not gonna cast blind cast the fish."
And so then when I switch gears and I'm like, "Hey, we're at this tree, I know there are no fish right here now, but just cast," and three or four plops and boom, now you've got five fish rising, which is really awesome to sort of see. [01:35:00] But it's also a great skill and it's a technique that has actually worked for me on rivers outside of the park as well where I find trees that have berries on them and maybe I don't see fish abundantly...abundantly clear to me that I see fish, but I'll throw some plops down and then all of a sudden I'll just see a giant movement towards my fly and I'm like, "It's go time." And so, I think that's definitely something that has worked pretty well for me. And that's both on, like, cloudy waters and clear waters. And so, like, generally that Mojo Mulberries kind of go-to, and I tie [01:35:30] that again in different colors and sizes too. And that's a go-to whenever mulberries are on. It's just absolutely awesome.
Tom: So, you see fish rising to mulberries, you see fish rising to bread, midges, any other things that they're eating on the surface in the park?
Brandon: Yeah. So, that's primarily I'd say the bulk of what we have in the park and what I see. I think that's pretty [01:36:00] much...I'd say that's the majority of the surface activity. But I think what makes this, I think, such a pretty unique fishery is that even river carp or even in other parks that are less frequented, I think it's very rare to find a park where you have such a high density of mulberries and then also you have such a high [inaudible 01:36:17] of tourists that are also there feeding the fish with bread and feeding turtles and whatever. And also, like, I'd say, you know, in any given day, I'll see at least three or four folks fishing for carp with conventional [01:36:30] European gear. And with that they're also...you know, they're throwing boilies and throwing out whatever attractive bait that they want. And so, they're like setting up, like, places that they might have been, like, fishing for days or something at a time. And so, there's just a lot of food there for them and I think it really does drive the fish to, sort of, have more of a surface orientation than I think they would if they were in any other place.
I think another piece of it too is we have a couple of restaurants that are actually on certain bodies of water in the park and, I mean, it's just insane to see [01:37:00] the number of fish that will come over and just crush hamburgers or hot dogs or French fries that someone throws over when they're done with it at dinner. And I'm like, oh my gosh, of course they're 200 yards away from me, and you can't access it unless you are in a boat. And I'm like, "Please, just come towards me." So I think because of that, the fish are just really primed to sort of be looking up a little bit more.
Tom: Can't you rent boats in Central Park in some of the lakes?
Brandon: Yeah, you can. And I actually have, like, a really awesome relationship with one [01:37:30] of the former managers. I was actually able to take clients out last year. And yeah, I took, like, six clients out on boats and I mean, it was absolutely epic. Like, we actually got some really good footage with "Flylords" that came out, got to take them out on some boats and we caught some incredible fish. They're hopefully releasing that pretty soon. So, if people wanna see it, you have to go check that out. But basically, I had a really good relationship with the manager who formally ran the boathouse and sort of the boat crew. And I mean, it was absolutely insane because it was not [01:38:00] only, like, a pretty technical fishery, like, you have to get it within, sort of, that 3-foot window, but if you line the fish, it's gonna blow out. They, like, have a stress response that they release and so it's gonna disturb the pods, you have to leave, then come back.
But like, when you hook into a fish, you have...like, not only obviously, like, me and whoever else is with you, like it's a multi-person trip. You also have, like, you and 200 other strangers who are, like, now spectating solely you landing this fish. And it's like, as soon as you get it into the net, there's applause, people are like, "I can't believe they are fish here. Oh my gosh." Like, [01:38:30] everyone's taking pictures, it's just chaos. But it's really, really a cool opportunity. Anyway, so the manager changed over and is sadly no longer there, and so I'm in the process of trying to figure out if we can reestablish that relationship with the new management. So, fingers crossed.
Tom: But can't the public just rent boats?
Brandon: Oh, yeah, you can rent boats, but they're not allowing fishing right now. So, the new management changed, they're not allowing fishing.
Tom: They're not allowing fishing from a boat?
Brandon: Yeah, exactly. It's [01:39:00] ridiculous. So, the old manager was super cool with it and actually I think understood the value of being able to show people that there are fish here, this is a really thriving ecosystem and, you know, we should not have people throw Citi Bikes in it and we should actually care about this waterway, you know, and really showing the value of having a fishery that is not only accessible to everyone, but really opens up the doors for so many people who would be interested in fishing, and fly fishing specifically. I think that last manager really got it and this manager doesn't [01:39:30] get it. So, in the process of trying to do some deep education, so hopefully we can open that back up.
Tom: So Brandon, you must have some stories, I mean, carp fishing in Central Park. Tell me a couple of interesting or bizarre stories.
Brandon: Yeah, I got a couple stories. Actually, this was a couple weeks ago. I was out with one of my friends and she was doing a guide trip and [01:40:00] we were sort of making our rounds. And so, I think one of the first things that people are pretty surprised by, because, you know, I have, like, an FAQ that I send to everyone and I'm like, "Hey, wear comfortable hiking shoes, wear hiking boots or something that's gonna have ankle stability, and wear pants because we're gonna be literally...you're gonna...we might be in poison ivy at some point, ideally not, but we'll be bush whacking." And so, we're really kind of off trail because a lot of times to get to a place we can cast and, you know, there are fishing trails all throughout there, so it's not [01:40:30] we're sort of busting through architecture or, like, landscaping or anything. So, people are surprised whenever I'm like, "Oh yeah, prepare to, like, walk maybe 5 or 6 miles." And so, they're like, "Wait, what? I thought we were in the park?" So, that's the first part.
So, we were doing our loops, we hit a tree, had some mulberries on it, got a couple fish, and then we were sort of making our way down to this next little, like, alcove. And we're making our way down this rock face, and he had rock climbed before, and so I was like, "Hey, we can go around this other way." And he [01:41:00] was like, "No, I'll scramble down the rock." And so he scrambles down and I'm at the bottom and he comes down and turns around and was like, "What the heck is that?" And turns around, and I kid you not, I have a picture of it, there was a 4-foot bong, like, glass bong with like a towel setup, it was an entire station that was set up with no one there, just a giant bong. And it's like, we're not on a trail, we're like off...Like, I was like, "This is hilarious." So we took a picture with this bong and continued to get the carp right next to [01:41:30] it. And like, every every couple guide trips after that I went by to check, and it eventually broke. Like, that bong was there for, like, two more trips after.
Tom: Oh, my God.
Brandon: And then I think at some point, I guess it was a communal bong and it met its life. So, that's one instance of just finding stuff that's just like, "What in the world?" But then, I mean, there are other instances where, like, on a different trip, we were fishing under this big willow tree and this was, like, sort of pre-spawn carp, so they were a couple fish [01:42:00] that were maybe, like, getting ready to spawn and sort of staging around there. And we're, like, casting on this group of fish that are klooping, like, right on the edge of the bank. And the "boat hatch," which happens at around 10 a.m. when the boathouse opens and tourists can sort of go and rent boats, oftentimes what happens is that moves fish around and so you kind of have to learn, like, where the fish go after that. And so, we're fishing the stream because it pushes all the fish that are in the middle maybe cruising or maybe just, like, eating stuff on the surface in the center of the pond out.
And so, we're on the edge of the bank and [01:42:30] we're in fish thickly and we've hooked up with one, couldn't land it, which happens often, and we should talk about landing at some point because I think that's a big part of urban fishing that is distinct from maybe even fishing on a big river or a reservoir where you can let fish run and you might get away with lighter rods because I think most people would say 6, 7 weights for carp are totally fine. I think you're undergunned a lot of times in a lot of urban fisheries. But anyway, so we're on this huge pot of fish and we're like, make a cast, [01:43:00] fish are, like, all around cruising, we're watching, we're watching. And like, the willow trees, you know how they hang, they kind of, like, suspend and create, like, a shield basically.
So, we're in this little orb kind of hidden revision, and all of a sudden this fish turns and you could see the body, the V just turned towards the fly and I'm like, "Oh yeah, this is it. Get ready, get ready." And as soon as the fish comes up, out of the middle of nowhere through these willows, a boat frickin' launches into the pot of fish. And I was like, "Are you kidding me?" And it was just like a tourist who didn't know how to row and, like, rowed, like, directly into [01:43:30] the bank right by us. And I was like, "You got to be kidding me." And so, we took a picture. They were good sports about it. We're taking a picture, like a selfie with us fishing and they're in the boat trying to figure out how to back out and taking pictures of us. It was just, like, madness. But yeah, that's just part of it. Oh, my gosh. And it really just part of it. I think it's one of those cool things of being able to, like, share the water with folks. And you know, I think it's, like, cool for people to be able to see that there are fish there.
And so, I think another [01:44:00] story that happens so frequently, really this was like six, seven years ago. But anytime I'd carry, like, a fly rod out around the park...and I think a fly rod is particularly, like, distinct. Like I said, I've never seen another fly [inaudible 01:44:12] anytime I'd fish in the park. And like, it's so large and people are like, "Whoa, what is that? They have fish here?" They have a lot of international tourists who come to the park. And I was one time just, like, hanging out, like, looking for fish, just sort of observing. And I had, like, 3 different groups of people come up to me over the [01:44:30] course of, like, 10 minutes to be like, "Oh my gosh, this is so cool. I didn't know you could fish here." Like, "Can I take a picture?" And like I'm thinking, okay, yeah, like, they wanna take a picture, like, of me fishing or something. And I was like, "Yeah, sure." And they, like, grabbed my rod, like, without asking and they're like, "No, no, I wanna take a picture of me like I'm fishing." And I was like, "What?" I'm like, "What?" And so they're like, "Yeah, whatever." They take their picture, they leave. And I was like, "This is so strange." But yeah, there is a couple photos of, like, random people who've [01:45:00] probably never fished who are holding rods in Central Park. It's just absolutely funny, man, how that happens.
But yeah, no, I think honestly one of the things that I'm, like, most surprised by too and was kind of nervous about when I first started fishing is I do think it takes some time to be able to learn any new fishery. But I think an urban fishery is particularly unique in this because I think it's one thing to be alone on any sort of water body where you have the time and, sort of, you know, just you to, sort of, have as a major concern around [01:45:30] your casting and maybe the trees perhaps. But there's a lot of situational awareness and also, like, a lot of, like, park-specific regulations that you have to follow that are distinct. And also, you need to be comfortable enough to talk to people about that and really be able to talk like, "Yeah, this is totally legal to be able to fish here. There's licenses. I'm a licensed guy. There are a number of, like, restrictions here. It's barbless, it's mandatory catch and release." Because everyone always asks like...Oh, that's actually another story. One guy wanted me to give him a carp that I caught. He wanted to put in his backpack to take it [01:46:00] back to eat and I was like, "No, no man, you don't want this carp. Let me do you a solid here. This is gonna stay here."
But yeah, so I think that it does take some time to be able to build up that awareness to really be an educational source for folks who are trying to get into it or for people who are just completely unaware that they have fish there. But I think it's one of the coolest parts because it's, like, so accessible. Like, I mean, it's literally people's backyards and it really opens up the door to new folks who, like, maybe didn't grow up fly fishing or didn't have fly fishing mentors to really get into [01:46:30] it. And I think that's like an awesome part. Like, the New York City Parks pairs up with our Department of Environmental Conservation to do, like, a free fishing day.
And then also, we do a casting clinic with Trout Unlimited and I volunteer personally with a couple of youth organizations in the city to sort of make sure that...really trying to give back and really make sure that especially, you know, more diverse folks are coming in to fly fishing. I think that's such an important part of urban fishing is really making sure that everyone can get into this beautiful sport. And Central Park is not only a technical fishery that, you know, experienced [01:47:00] flying anglers and hardcore saltwater anglers can enjoy, but it's like, even new people can come here and they catch the blue gill, they catch some largemouth bass, they hook several carp, maybe not land them. And it's, like, really just an awesome resource in our backyard.
Tom: It's just fantastic. And wanna thank you for sharing all this knowledge. I certainly have been taking notes and I hope [01:47:30] to come down and fish with you sometime. I would really love to see that.
Brandon: Yeah, man, let me know. Anytime.
Tom: I would love to see that fishery.
Brandon: It's really special. It's really special. And all of our fisheries, I think there are several other parks that I won't disclose here that definitely have them in literally all of the states near New York that are sometimes better because there are some parks that have the same density of carp that actually have clarity of water. So, it's very special in that instance because then [01:48:00] it's all sight fishing.
Tom: I would imagine any lake in a New York City park has gotta have carp in it, right?
Brandon: Oh, yeah. And it's actually cool too, the Department of Environmental Conservation, which I think does a really great job, they actually have a published, sort of, list. If you type in any fish species, but they specifically have this for carp...I gave a lecture at Orvis a couple of weeks ago and they published, like, every body of water in every region of the state and [01:48:30] whether or not they have carp there, and that's backed up by their carp survey data. And granted, it's old survey data, like some of it was done in the '80s, but they talk about the populations that were there. And so, they're like, "Oh, highest density carp population..." Like, I won't list that pond. You have to go and look it up for yourself. But I'm sure every other state agency has that. And it's, like, really a great resource. And I think that, like, so many more folks as they think about getting out, sort of, into the fly fishing world and also just, like, giving trout a break, there are so many awesome opportunities for fly fishing in your own backyard that [01:49:00] really make this a special thing that anyone could do and get to.
Tom: Absolutely. All right, Brandon. So, if people wanna get hold of you, give them your website address and your Instagram handle and all that stuff.
Brandon: Yeah, absolutely. So, if people wanna get in touch, it is carpintheparknyc.com and then my Instagram handle is bdale13. And you can find me on there and I'll be posting some carp stuff. I do a lot of work with this great organization called Hunters [01:49:30] of Color that gets folks out, and also Brown Folks Fishing. And so, I was heavily involved with Trout Unlimited and sort of the NYCTU program. So, got my fingers in a lot of stuff, but it's a lot of fun to be able to show people this incredible fishery, so [crosstalk 01:49:42]...
Tom: And you're studying to be doctor besides, right, or you...
Brandon: Yeah, that's also happening.
Tom: You are a busy guy. You are a busy guy.
Brandon: Well, this stuff gives me joy and really resets me. I think it really clears my mind. So, it's a great fortitude. [01:50:00]
Tom: Well, and I bet you're a great guide. So, thank you, Brandon, for sharing and taking the time today.
Brandon: Thanks so much, Tom, and I really appreciate it.
Tom: Thanks for listening to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment, send it to us at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. in the body of an email or as a voice attachment. You can find more free fishing tips at howtoflyfish.orvis.com. [01:50:30]