How to Get Started in Carp Fishing, with Rick Mikesell
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the Orvis Fly Fishing podcast. This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And in this week's episode, my guest is Rick Mikesell. And Rick is a carp aficionado and one of the best urban anglers that I've ever met [00:00:30.160] and a fun guy to be around. Rick's gotten me into lots of difficult carp on the Denver South Platte that, I know I wouldn't have caught without Rick standing over my shoulder. And this guy is just a fount of knowledge.
And what I wanted to do with Rick this week is to do a more basic carp episode because, you know, I'm a carp evangelist, I have to admit. I think it's one of the most interesting fish in freshwater. [00:01:00.759] And, they're available almost everywhere. And are they easy? No. They're not easy to catch. So it's not something you wanna go out and try for your first fly fishing experience. You're better off starting with panfish or bass. But, you know, if you're a reasonably proficient trout angler or bass angler, it's such a fascinating fish, and they are definitely the hardest-fighting fish in freshwater. So anyway, other than [00:01:30.129] steelhead and salmon, which I don't really consider freshwater fish because they're anadromous.
But we're doing a basic podcast on carp fishing, and I hope that by listening to this, those of you who haven't tried it and maybe been curious about it will give it a try, because it's a way of taking pressure off our trout streams. And, again, it's as much fun as you can have with a fly rod in freshwater. And, no announcements this week. No ads. Just [00:02:00.150] the fly box. And, if you have a question for the Flybox, which is where you ask me questions or ask for advice and I try to give it to you, you can send your questions to me at
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So let's start with an email from Dan. "Love your podcast and seldom miss an episode. Recently, you had Todd Tanner on talking about dry fly fishing. He made a point that slower rods make better dry fly rods, and I tend to agree. My go-to dry fly rod is a Helios 2. I'm fortunate enough to own several Helios rods and love them all, but the 2 is a favorite dry fly rod. Todd mentioned matching Flyline to softer rods, and I'm wondering what line you would [00:03:00.110] recommend I used with the Helios 2."
Well, Dan, yeah. And, first of all, not everybody agrees with the fact that slightly slower, kind of moderate action rods are better dry fly rods. You'll have people that'll tell you that a really fast action rod is a better dry fly rod. It depends on conditions and someone's own personal casting style. But you, and Todd, and I all agree that we want a slightly slower rod, for dry fly fishing. [00:03:30.604] And what I use, personally, what I use on my Helios rods and from the first Helios to the generation four is the standard Orvis Pro trout line. And sometimes I use them in textured, sometimes I use them in smooth. I think I prefer smooth a little bit better for dry fly fishing. It's just a little bit nicer feel to me. Yeah. Maybe I'm gonna miss a little bit on distance, but it doesn't really bother me.
That being [00:04:00.094] said, if you wanna slow down that Helios 2 a little bit more, you can go with a power taper line. Power taper lines are about a half size heavier, and what it's gonna do is slightly slow down the action of the rod. So you can go either way. If you're making lots of shorter casts, then the power taper is probably a good idea. If you were, you know, fishing 45 feet and beyond, most of the time, on a bigger river, then I would go with the standard trout line.
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Bob: Hi, Tom. This is Bob Luck from Minneapolis, Minnesota. I'm wondering if people fish bass poppers for trout. My home water is the Kinnickinnic River, and it has some deep still pools besides limestone bluffs. I tried fishing poppers there one evening last week and didn't have any luck, but maybe I'm doing something wrong, or it may just be that the fish weren't [00:05:00.004] interested that particular evening. Anyway, I'm wondering if you have any suggestions or tips about this. I would also love to hear a podcast about night fishing for trout. We get the rap in the Midwest that we don't have many big fish, but I understand that we actually do. They just all feed at night, and it would be great to hear a podcast about how to go after them. Love your show.
Tom: Well, Bob, yeah, you can absolutely, [00:05:31.064] catch trout on poppers. I would argue that you probably don't wanna pop them as aggressively as you would for bass, for large mouth bass or small mouth bass. But poppers will work. I know that, you know, some of the things we use, like mouse flies are, in essence, a popper. You know, they're a big surface fly that that makes some commotion on the water. Probably, [00:06:00.425] you're better off using a slider type fly, like a sneaky Pete, if you're gonna use a hard-bodied popper with a pointed head. And they're not gonna work all the time. In fact, they're not gonna work most of the time. But if you're in a situation where you might think a bigger fly might attract the fish, early morning just before dark or after dark is probably, the best time to use these flies. And again, I wouldn't move the fly too aggressively. I would [00:06:30.004] slide it across the surface just like you would would fish a mouse fly. But, yes, they can work under certain circumstances for sure.
Regarding your request for a night fishing podcast, that's a great idea, and I have somebody in mind. And I'm gonna give him a call and see if he will agree to do a night fishing podcast. So stay tuned.
Here's an email from Dave [00:07:00.350] from Southeast Pennsylvania. "I know you have discussed the advantages and disadvantages of nylon versus poly tippet material before, but perhaps you can indulge us further for this specific situation." And by the way, I think, Dave, you're you're saying nylon versus fluorocarbon, not poly, but, just so people don't get confused. "I often use a dry dropper with the dry off [00:07:30.050] of 5x and the dropper off of 6x tippet and lately, have been using nylon 6x, the cheap stuff from Walmart. Invariably over time, my 6x will get curly and kinky and periodically foul my dry. This is more likely a casting issue. But generally, it is not just not very straight for very long. Conversely, I never seem to have issues if the dropper is on 5x, just fewer fish. To get a stiffer 6x tippet that doesn't kink [00:08:00.180] as easily is the answer to use poly instead of nylon?" And again, I think I think you mean, fluorocarbon. "Or is there a significant brand difference I should be gravitating to and paying for? Isn't it all 0.005 inches and 2.7 pounds?"
Well, Dave, there's a few things to unpack here. One is that you generally get what you pay for in tippet material. And different brands have slightly different formulas. So, [00:08:30.839] a lot of the tippet material, most of the good tippet material is made in Japan in a relatively few number of factories. But each brand has its own nylon formula and the way the nylon is extruded. So, although they may come from the same factory, they're not often made with the same nylon formula or with the same technique.
The kinking [00:09:00.870] is probably not a casting issue, but a knot-tying issue. So here's what I have found over the years. When you thread a fly to tie your knot, if you have pressure on the eye of the fly, in other words, sometimes I find my line is dragging downstream of me and pulling on it. And when I pull the tippet through the eye, it will score the tippet slightly and make it curl. [00:09:30.049] So the answer to this is to make sure that there is slack between the rest of your leader and your tippet. And when you tie the fly on, first of all, make sure that the tippet doesn't scrape against the eye of the fly. And then, when you tie your knot, you wanna tie it loosely and then lubricate it and then pull it tight fairly [00:10:00.399] quickly. It's not a violent snap, but it's a fairly, you know, just a quick pop when you when you seat the knot. That's gonna prevent some of your curlicues.
And that being said, curlicues, I think curlicues next to the fly are gonna make it a little less attractive to the fish. But if you have curlicues further up your tippet, I don't think that matters at all. In fact, it may give you a little bit of drag reduction, [00:10:31.049] because those curlicues have to straighten out before the fly drags. So I wouldn't worry about them way up near the rest of your leader, but if they're close to the fly, yeah, it's probably a problem. And, yes, certain, certain materials do kink and curl easier than others. So you have to find the tippet material that you like that doesn't kink. I can't speak for a lot of the other brands because I [00:11:00.389] haven't used, well, I do use other brands just to test them out. And the brands that I've used don't seem to have this curling property. I remember there was a tippet material, this is back in the '70s or '80s, made by a major fly fishing company that did really kink badly, but that's not on the market anymore.
You know, you could go to fluorocarbon. Fluorocarbon is a slightly stiffer [00:11:30.054] material and, it's gonna kink less. It's a little bit less flexible and it sinks, so you may have problems presenting your dry fly. But in smaller diameters like 5 and 6x, fluorocarbon is fine for a dry fly tippet. In fact, I've been using it more and more recently, not because of the visibility issues, but because it's really, really strong. And the other thing is, all 6x tippet is around [00:12:00.695] five thousandths of an inch in diameter. There is about a half a thousandth variation that's allowed in the labeling. So it could be, you know, it could be a half size smaller or a half size larger. Generally, a half size larger than 0.005 , so it'd be 0.0055. And not all of it is 2.7 pounds. And and those stated knot strengths are very misleading because they're an approximation [00:12:30.664] and also they're the dry breaking strength of the tippet material.
And tippet's strength, it can change when you tie a knot in it. So, Orvis has been trying for years to convince all the tippet retailers to label tippet with wet knot strength because that's what's important to us. We haven't had any luck there. And so you really just have [00:13:00.085] to try different varieties of tippet material, different brands, and see which kinks less for you and which one holds knots the best.
Here's an email from Ben from Western Massachusetts. "When small stream trout come up and refuse your fly at the last second in a multitude of different scenarios, varying from full-blown breaches with closed mouths to swirls, all in different water types throughout the fishing season, specifically [00:13:30.054] late spring into early summer, right now, in New England, what are the things you suggest change or keep moving? How many refusals before you do change?"
Well, Ben, depends on whether you're fishing for brook trout, brown trout, or rainbow trout in New England. So if it's a brown trout and it refuses a fly, I might change flies once and then move on because if they often don't come back for the second fly. You know, they roll [00:14:00.144] on the fly or they slash at the fly, and you set the hook and you make a violent motion on the surface, that pretty much spooks them.
On the other hand, brook trout, brook trout don't seem to be as, particularly wilderness brook trout, don't seem to be as fussy about that or as spooky. And you probably change dry flies two or three times. Generally, I would go to a smaller fly or a lower-floating fly if the fish refuse your fly. It's often that the fly [00:14:30.215] is just too big. You put on a big dry fly so you can see it. And maybe their mouth is too small to get around it, or maybe they decide at the last minute it's too small and they refuse it. But I would take heart that, you know, fishing, particularly small brook trout streams, you're gonna miss at least half the fish that come up for your fly. They just, a lot of brook trout just splash at the fly and there's nothing you can do. You're not doing anything wrong. But, generally, [00:15:00.774] going to one size smaller or even two sizes smaller might help that.
Here's an email from Phil from Arizona. "I hope you're well, and I really enjoy listening to your podcast. I would like your take on the following issues. I've been fly fishing for about 26 years, and from the beginning, I accepted the advice that for leader and tippet material, you should always go as light as possible to be as stealthy as possible. In the last few years, I started to do the opposite [00:15:30.409] and use as heavy a leader tippet as possible, and I rarely fish with leader or tippet that isn't at least 4x. I haven't really noticed a drop in the catch rate, but I certainly noticed that the line doesn't break as often. I fish mainly freestone rivers and streams. What is your approach to this subject? Thanks."
Well, Phil, as in all things fly fishing, it depends. So, yes, I think that, using as heavy a tippet as you can [00:16:00.129] get away with is a good idea because you can, you're gonna break off fewer fish. But more importantly, you're gonna be able to bring those fish in quickly, without struggling a lot, and you'll be able to release them in a lot more, a lot healthier manner. So, you know, handling time and playing time affects how a released fish survives. So, yeah, using as heavy a tippet as you can get away with is a good idea.
The problem arises, [00:16:30.529] in a couple circumstances. One is if drag is a real problem, then going to a lighter tippet will often help reduce drag because it's got less mass. And also, if you're fishing nymphs, a thinner tippet is gonna help sink your fly quicker. So, those are the times when you might wanna go to a lighter tippet. And, you know, one of the things you can do if you don't wanna go [00:17:00.120] to a lighter tippet, I found that if I wanna use 4x in a situation where a lot of other people might use 5x or 6x because the fish are big or there's a lot of weeds, I can think of the Henry's Fork in particular, going to a longer tippet will often help alleviate that drag situation. I don't think it's visibility. I think fish can see 8x tippet, but they just ignore it. So they can see 8x, they can see 4x. So I don't think it's visibility, but I think it's the [00:17:30.200] natural movement of the fly and drag reduction. So go ahead and keep using that 4x and get those fish in quickly.
Steve: Hi, Tom. This is Steve in Washington, DC. You've talked a lot on the podcast about floatant. My question concerns sinking agents or at least what one manufacturer is calling Sink It. I had a bottle of the stuff and the cap became a little unscrewed in my vest and made a terrible mess. And the ordeal has me wondering if I really [00:18:00.025] need this stuff at all. I've certainly used it, although to what effect I can't really say. And so the question rises in my mind, what would Tom do? Does Tom use sinking agent? If so, when, how, and to what effect? Thanks.
Tom: Steve, I think you can eliminate one thing from your fishing vester pack, and that's a sinking agent. I never use them. I used to carry them, [00:18:30.065] and I ended up never using them. I think that getting a fly to sink, particularly a nymph or a streamer, is more about how the fly is tied, how much weight it has on it, and what angle to the current that you, one angle in relation to the current that you cast. So, sinking agents, you know, are not nearly as effective as picking the right fly. So [00:19:00.115] if you wanna fly to sink better, you either wanna go to a very slim, non-absorbent fly like a Perdigon or you wanna go to a fly with a lot of lead or a lot of, weight on it, such as a heavy tungsten bead. And those sinking agents aren't gonna make that much difference.
There is a there is a product, called MUD, or used to be called MUD I don't know what it's called now, that you would supposedly [00:19:30.015] put on your leader to help the leader sink. And honestly, I don't think a sinking leader spooks fish or has anything to do with the effectiveness of your presentation. So I don't think you need a sinking agent. I would leave them out.
Here is another leader and tippet question. A lot of leader in tippet questions. I've gotta do another podcast on leaders and tippet because so many of these questions have to do with with, leaders leaders and tippet.
"Hi, [00:20:00.055] Tom. I have a question for the podcast as it pertains to tippet. Do you get what you pay for when it comes to tippet? I would imagine there is a difference between cheaper brands and some of the more well-known names, but I'm talking about among the more well-known brands like Orvis Scientific Angler, which is, of course, part of Orvis, RIO, [inaudible 00:20:17.721], etc. When you look at some of the more popular names like those in comparing pound testing limits, will you really notice a difference? Obviously, this is really trying to see if the few extra bucks for [00:20:30.234] one brand over the other really matters.
I also have a question regarding a leader specifically for nymph fishing. I know you can buy nymph leader with a tippet ring already on. However, I have a couple extra standard 9-foot 4x leaders and I was thinking of cutting back the 4x tippet portion and adding a tippet ring. Is it as simple as that to set up a nymph leader? Will nymph leaders start as nylon at the fly line attachment and then you build off that with fluorocarbon or are nymph leaders all fluorocarbon [00:21:00.740] all the way up to the attachment to the fly line? Thanks for all you do. You've been great to listen to and watch on my fly fishing journey. Already have read four books of yours and currently on my fifth."
Well, thank you, Tom. Appreciate that. Yeah. There is a difference in the more-well known tippet materials. As I said in a previous question, a lot of them come out of the same or similar [00:21:30.509] factories in Japan, but with a different formula and different construction techniques. But they're all gonna be pretty good. The one, and you do generally get what you pay for because the more expensive tippets are made from a better material, and they take more care in making the tippet. And the one exception to, you know so they're all gonna be [00:22:00.039] about the same price, but the one exception to this is in fluorocarbon, that Scientific Anglers Absolute Fluorocarbon Supreme is super expensive. I think it's like $30 a spool, and it is worth it. It is really, really strong, and I have been using that exclusively in both freshwater and saltwater. I only got broken off a fish on that stuff. It is just really amazing. And, because it's [00:22:30.140] it's so good and so strong, I've been using it more on dry flies, than I used to use fluorocarbon.
So that's one exception. But, you know, if you're just fishing nylon, they're all pretty darn good. And again, those pound test breaking strengths are very misleading, and they're only a general guide because they're dry break strength and depends on how you measure it. And wet knot strength is what's important to us. So, yeah, they're [00:23:00.180] kind of a guideline, but I wouldn't hold too much stock in those dry breaking strengths.
Regarding your second question, yeah, you can absolutely do that. In fact, I do that a lot. I just put a tippet ring or a knot sometimes, but a tippet ring's easier on the end of a 9-foot 4x leader. And one of the things that I've done more recently is I put my strike indicator way [00:23:30.055] up close to that tippet ring, almost on the tippet ring. And then I put a long tippet on the end, a tippet that's one and a half, you know, about one and a half times the water depth, and I've found that it's easier to mend that. It's easier to cast that. Putting the strike indicator way up on the leader in the heavier part doesn't work as well. You wanna have a nice flexible, quick [00:24:00.045] sinking connection between your strike indicator and your fly. So, that's that's what I do. Absolutely a good way to do it.
And no, nymph leaders are not made of fluorocarbon at the butt because you want the butt section of that to float, or be near the surface so that you can mend easier. So, nearly all nymph leaders that I know of that people use are gonna be nylon down to the tippet and then they add a fluorocarbon tippet [00:24:30.115] on the end.
Here's an email from Noah. "I'm a 25-year-old fly fisher from Cleveland, Ohio area. I love the show and have been listening for years, but this is the first question I've come to mind for the Flybox. One of my favorite aspects of the sport is the beautiful places it takes us and how it gives us an opportunity to immerse ourselves in nature. As such, I love going on weekend camping fly fishing trips around the Great Lakes region, sometimes alone, but often with friends. [00:25:00.454] I've recently been upgrading my camping setup to make the experience as enjoyable and relaxing as possible. In your experience, are there specific items or gear that you always bring to a multi-day trout camp that make a difference in comfort, efficiency, or versatility that you would recommend? I always remember to bring the basics, but if there is any gear that you appreciate that people might not be aware of or thinking of, it would be a huge help. Thanks for all you and Orvis do for our sport."
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So, Noah, I probably don't do as much camping as you do, but, you know, I do take some multi-day trips. And as far as camping stuff, you probably got that covered because you're an experienced camper. As far as fishing gear is concerned, you know, an extra pants and shirt for sure in case you fall in. You know, sometimes hand warmers, earlier in the season, obviously, [00:26:00.375] but, you know, you never know what kind of weather you're gonna experience. And sometimes I kick myself for not having thrown a couple of chemical hand warmers in my bag. Duct tape is important and a strong flashlight. The reason I always travel with a strong flashlight is that it's the best way to quickly find leaks in a pair of waders without filling them up with water and doing all those silly things that people do. And Aquaseal. I never go on [00:26:30.005] a multi-day fishing trip without Aquaseal because if you have leaky waders, you're gonna be miserable. And you can dry them off pretty quickly and put some Aquaseal on while you're having, before you have dinner. And then by morning, the patch will be good. And, using that flashlight, you run it down inside the wader, they will, the leaks will show up as little pinpoints of light. And, oh, you probably want a permanent marker too, to mark the spot and [00:27:00.015] then put some Aquaseal on there, and you'll be good to go the next day.
The other thing, if I'm car camping, I would take a small fly tying kit and I'll think of what kind of flies I might need to tie for that particular region, and I'll throw a few things in a bag and take those along. But that's not great for backpacking and not everybody wants to tie while they're on a fishing trip, but I often find that to be very satisfying. [00:27:30.154] And honestly, you know, packing for a one-day trip is often the same as for a week-long trip. You need you need the same stuff. Right? So you need the same stuff for a day as you do for a week.
You know, that brings to my one other thing, extra tippet material, and extra leaders. You know, unless you're unless you're gonna be camping near a fly shop, if you run out of 5x tippet, you're gonna be upset. So a spool or two of extra tippet material [00:28:00.315] might come in handy.
Here's an email from Mike. "My question for you, Mr. Tom, is why I keep file hooking? My regular is a 10-foot 6-inch Euro-based rod, and I'm always fishing subsurface quite deep for Euro jigs, even with the emergers on the dangle. I've caught a lot of fish, mostly Rocky Mountain whitefish, but I'll get the occasional rainbow and a couple brown trout par for the mix. I've never file hooked so many fish. My setup is still the same as the last five years. I've [00:28:30.204] not changed how I do it in this certain run. I'm a creature of habit. And I've not been manipulating the bigger point fly, Lance Egan's poacher sometimes. Are there bigger pods? My drawback against the current has changed a bit, worship the dangle, but it's not a big move. I'm not flipping back to casting a Rapala. My regular setup is dropper size 14, jig style hair's ear. My point fly is a 4.3-millimeter pink Perdigon [00:29:00.144] or a poacher. What gives?"
Oh, boy. I'm not sure, Mike. The one question I would have is how far is your point fly from your dropper? Generally, separating, you know, the point fly the way you're fishing is a bigger fly. And often, the fish will go for the bigger fly and refuse it, spit it out really quickly. And by the time you react, you follow hook them on the second fly. [00:29:30.005] So keeping those separated by a little bit more distance might help. And the other thing is, yeah, there may be just bigger pods of fish. And if the, you know, particularly whitefish, which travel in schools, and they have a small mouth. So if you're, you know, if the whitefish are pecking at your fly and they're really densely packed in there, then you may very well be file hooking more fish. But, you [00:30:00.099] know, without actually seeing your setup and and how long it is and and watching you fish, I really can't, determine exactly what's happening with your setup. But hopefully, you'll make some changes and stop follow hooking so many fish.
Here's an email from Mark from West Virginia. "First of all, thank you for your podcast. I don't generally listen to podcasts, but I do listen to yours from time to time. I'm relatively new to fly fishing [00:30:30.109] and find the podcast both informative and entertaining. Great job. I have yet another leader question." A lot of leader questions this week. "I'm sure you probably addressed this in the past, but being new to the podcast, I thought I would hit you with it again. My question has to do with furled leaders, specifically for small stream native brook trout fishing with dry flies, which comprises about 80% of my fishing adventures. One, do you ever use them? Two, if so, do you think they are a good alternative to nylon leaders? Three, do you think [00:31:00.089] they turn small dry flies over more easily? Four, what about their endurance? I have used one for a day and my three weight graphite rod with decent success, but have, as this writing, have not tried it on my four weight fiberglass rod. I have a high regard for your opinion and just looking for some direction here."
All right, Mark. So I do get this question regularly. And I periodically will fish furled [00:31:30.140] leaders just to try them out. And I always go back to nylon. First of all, if they're working for you and you like them, then keep using them. I don't know of any really experienced fly anglers who use furled leaders. I'm sure they're out there, but nobody in my circle uses furled leaders. And they're hard to find in fly shops. There's a few fly shops that carry them. [00:32:02.140] Do I think they're a good alternative to nylon leaders? Sure. They're fine. But the the one thing you have to remember is that, with a furled leader, you have a preset butt section and transition section. So you're basically adding a tippet to those furled leaders. You can add a couple sections sometimes to make them a little bit longer of regular nylon, but you're basically set.
And I like to modify [00:32:30.470] my leaders a lot, and I can't do that with a furled leader. I can add a tippet and maybe one or two intermediate sections, but I can't really modify it, I can't put a longer butt on my leader and I can't change much. So that's one reason I don't care for them that much. The other reason is that if they ever tangle, they're nearly impossible to get untangled. And this happens a lot. I find when I'm stuck in a tree and I have [00:33:00.015] to break my fly off, that that furled leader comes back in a big ball and if you ever get a knot in a furled leader, you'll never get it out. So anyway, they work, They're good. They cast nice. Yes. They'll work well with a small dry fly. You're asking my opinion and I personally don't use them. Would I go back to them to try them out again? Sure. Yeah. I can always learn something new, but currently, [00:33:30.345] I don't use them.
Here's an email from Steven from Redding, California. "I started fishing again last year as my children have gotten a little older and has quickly become one of my biggest passions. I listen to the podcast every week in order to get tips even though I only make it out maybe once a month given family life. We just had another baby girl last week." Congratulations, Steven. "My eight-year-old daughter got very excited about fishing last year after I got her a kid's spin cast rod, and she caught seven rainbow trout [00:34:00.285] over a two-day camping trip on a small river. This year, for her birthday, she asked me to take her on an all-day fishing trip, just me and her, which I'm excited about. I have a few questions though. I'd like to get her a fly rod, but given she's less than four feet tall, I would think a long rod would be intimidating. Do you have any recommendations on rod size and weight for fishing creeks and small rivers for trout in Northern California? Two, what type of rig should I set her up with? My last two times out, I've [00:34:30.025] gotten skunked. My first time steelhead fishing, another time in a new area. I would hate to go fishing all day with her and not have her catch anything, especially if it's her first time on a fly rod. Should I go with streamers as that will feel a little bit more like the spoon she was using on her spin casting rig?
This one's for me. Some friends of mine gifted me a fair amount of money to buy some waders for my birthday this spring and I was able to score a nice pair of waders at a discounted price. My predicament is [00:35:00.385] I don't have the funds to buy a good pair of wading boots at this time. One friend recommended just using Crocs as that would be an inexpensive option. I also have some nice open-toed sandals with adjustable straps that could accommodate the added size of the neoprene booty. Do you have any recommendations or an inexpensive option until I can afford some wading boots? Should I just get an oversized pair of tennis shoes?"
So regarding your daughter, I wouldn't go any shorter [00:35:30.414] than seven and a half feet, and I would lean towards an eight to nine-foot rod. They're easier to cast. They're easier to manipulate line on the water. And, I would hate to, you know, a lot of people force kids to use a little short cute little short rod, and they struggle with their casting because it's hard to cast those short little rods. So, I wouldn't be too worried about going too short or too light. I would think, you know, something for you said small [00:36:00.224] creek. Something for a four weight line between eight and and nine feet, would be a good, I think would be a good option.
What kind of rig you should set her up with? Well, it depends on conditions. Yeah. If the water is high and a little dirty, I'd put a streamer on there. You know, you can fish a streamer at really any angle and just slap it in the water and keep a tight line. And if the fish are into streamers, they'll probably eat it. But if [00:36:30.030] it's a bright day and the stream is low and clear, one of the things that I would recommend is, swinging a soft tackle in riffles for a kid. That's how I got both of my kids started in fly fishing, trout fishing, so they didn't get discouraged. I would just put a small lightly weighted nymph or a soft tackle and just let them throw it across the current and let it swing in the current. [00:37:00.150] And the fish usually hook themselves, and so that's a pretty good basic way to start out. That being said, if fish are rising, have her put on a dry fly. But even even if fish are rising, that swung wet fly may take fish, soft tackle or something.
That being said though, I wouldn't start a kid out in trout fishing. Trout are tough. Trout are tougher than most [00:37:30.039] other freshwater fish. If you really wanted to get her on to fish quickly, I would find a lake or even a stream with some small bass, panfish, chubs, you know, something that's a relatively eager biter. Trout can be difficult. And with a a kid that young, you want them to have immediate success. So you can try trout fishing. If you're in a remote place and the trout are pretty unsophisticated, then it might work. But if, you [00:38:00.139] know, if it's in a highly pressured area, she could get frustrated.
Regarding the wading shoe issue, do not use Crocs as a wading shoe. They are dangerous. When I remember when Crocs first came out, we all thought, oh, cool, they're waterproof. You know, we can wear them wet wading. We're not gonna hurt them. They're not gonna absorb water. They are awful. They are dangerous for wading. [00:38:30.260] Don't use them. I can't stress that enough. And open-toed sandals, you know, you're gonna bang your toes with open-toed sandals. I think your suggestion of just a pair of inexpensive tennis shoes is a good idea. You know, if you can, try to glue some felt on the bottom of them, it's not gonna hold very well. You may have to sand the soles down and put some, glue some felt on there. And be really careful [00:39:00.349] because wading in tennis shoes is again kinda dangerous. So, you know, as long as you're not fishing heavy water and on really slippery boulders, you'll probably be okay. But, I would, as soon as possible, find yourself a pair of inexpensive wading boots with either felt or rubber with studs. Problem with tennis shoes is you can't put studs in them. It's hard to put felt on them that'll stay there. And you can't put studs in them because there's no plate [00:39:30.119] to hold the studs. So go with the tennis shoes, but be very careful.
Here's one from Andrew from Minnesota. "I just happened upon a great deal. You can imagine my surprise when I found an Orvis graphite eight-foot three-inch seven-weight-rod with an Orvis Madison IV reel and accompanying line. Total price, dollars $9.75 including tax." What a deal. "The reel was pretty gummed up and not spinning, but some elbow grease and some WD-40 freed it up pretty [00:40:00.065] quickly. Now, I have a nice spare seven weight setup. Some questions. Can you shed any light on the history of this rod and reel? What are your memories, if any, of using them? I cast the rod a bunch of times and it feels lighter with less backbone than my modern-day seven weight. Is that to be expected? Is it really more equivalent to a six weight particularly because of the shorter length? The reel is click and pawl with a cam activated drag. The drag doesn't do much but it's not broken per se. Were the drags on these [00:40:30.114] reels known to wear out? Is there an easy fix to tighten the internal mechanism? Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions and for the podcast; my primary source of knowledge as I continue on this lifelong journey."
So, Andrew, first of all, I remember that rod very well. It was called an all rounder and was one of the earliest Orvis graphite rods. It wasn't much of a trout rod. You know, seven weights are heavy for most trout [00:41:00.215] fishing, except streamers. But it was a decent bass rod. Like all the older rods, it was heavier and it may feel lighter to you, but it's actually physically, much heavier and tip heavier than a modern rod. And, it was a pretty durable rod and it cast okay. It's a fine rod to use, particularly for bass fishing or pan fishing. So you should [00:41:30.215] have a lot of fun with that. And, no, I don't think you should put a six weight line on it. It called for a seven. I think a seven is about right, on that rod, definitely. Glad you got the reel up and spinning. There isn't a lot you can do to tighten a spring and pawl reel. What you can do is you can carefully take the spring out if it'll come out [00:42:00.184] or just try to bend it so that it puts a little bit more pressure on those pawls, but bend it carefully. But there's only so much... I don't think a drag would wear out, but there's only so much you can do to tighten a drag. And, you know, you're just gonna have to deal with that lighter drag on a click and pull by either palming the reel if you can. I don't know if you could palm that Madison IV. I haven't seen one in a long time. But, you know, to add a little drag, you could gently, [00:42:30.175] grab onto your line and do some manual drag.
Here's an email from Rick. "I just started fly fishing last summer when my wife got me a weekend casting class in Manchester as a gift. It was a terrific experience and definitely set the hook. I loaded up on gear before heading home, and the rest, as they say, is history. One of the great perks of the class was your book, "Beginning Fly Fishing," which sits on my bedside table and is getting pretty dog-eared. [00:43:00.275] That, along with your terrific podcasts and videos, has been trusted and helpful companions in this journey. So kudos and thanks to you. Here's my question. What's the deal with all this multi fly fishing between hopper droppers, double or even triple nymphs series, and indicator flies for everything? It seems I must be some kind of loser for just trying it on a likely fly and trying my luck. How and when did this mass migration start? Is the cult taking over the world? [00:43:30.715] Is this really the best way to fish? Or are there reasonable advantages to fishing with a single fly? What does it all mean, Mister Natural?"
I don't know why you're calling me Mister Natural, Rick. But anyway, actually, fishing multiple flies is old fashioned. It's not a cult. They're the way that people used to fly fish was to use a team of multiple wet flies. I think sometimes up [00:44:00.114] to a dozen on a leader. What a pain that must have been. And, you know, there is a reason. Two plus two probably equals five in fishing multiple flies because one of the flies might attract the fish and it might decide to take the other one. So I think it's a good practice. When I fish nymphs, I generally fish two. When I fish an indicator with a nymph, I [00:44:30.074] usually fish dry dropper because I have a better chance of, you know, figuring out which fly the fish will take. I don't generally fish multiple streamers. I generally fish a single streamer pattern, but I have been known to fish two streamers at once. Never three, but two.
But there are times when I think a single fly is an advantage. One is one is during a hatch, when the fish are feeding on a specific [00:45:00.295] bug and you wanna be really precise with your casting. I think you can be a lot more precise and a lot more delicate with a single fly. So if fish are rising, I will almost always fish with a single fly. And then, if I'm site nymphing to a fish in clear shallow water and I can see the fish, I will always just use a single fly, again, for stealth and for precision. But I don't think there's anything [00:45:30.019] wrong with fishing multiple flies. If you don't like it, don't do it, and you'll have a great time. I know that George Daniel, the great nymph angler or the great angler in general, has been doing more and more of his nymphing with a single fly. So, it's definitely, it's not a cult. It's just a way a lot of people fish. And, again, if you don't like it, don't do it. You're not gonna miss out on that much.
Cody: Hi, Tom. My name is Cody from Cleveland, [00:46:00.280] Ohio. I was fly fishing the Cinema Honing in Pennsylvania this past weekend. We had a successful trip where we caught about a dozen trout. But one of the questions I had is that oftentimes, I would throw my flies, complete my drift, and at the very end of my drift, I would strip a little in in preparation for my next cast. And oftentimes, the trout would hit the fly as soon as I [00:46:30.309] did that strip. My question is, does that mean that I was too low in the water column and my strip caused the fly to rise in the water column to be in front of the trout, or does it mean that that movement of the fly just triggered a bite? And because of that, should I change my setup? Would that have indicated me to move my flies at all? Thanks.
Tom: Well, Cody, [00:47:00.210] that is one of the great mysteries of trout fishing, and I've seen the same thing. I remember once on the Delaware River in the middle of a spinnerfall when the fish are obviously feeding exclusively on spent flies that aren't moving. They're sipping in the surface film and at the end of my drift, I would strip the fly back to make another cast, and fish would hammer it. And there is no rhyme nor [00:47:30.099] reason to that. I have no idea why it happened. And also, you know, because fish shouldn't have been chasing a fly when they could just sip an emerger that's coming down to them. So I think it's a reaction strike. And the other situation I remember is there is a spot on the Henry's Fork of the Snake that I fish a lot with, guide BJ Gerhardt. And the fish are always feeding on little tiny blue-winged olive dry flies. And every time we go [00:48:00.010] there, you know, we're fishing a long downstream cast with a light tippet to fish feeding on emerging mayflies. So these flies aren't skittering across the water or anything. And when I strip back, I keep hooking fish, and these are fussy wild brown trout.
So, I think it's a reaction strike, but honestly, I have no idea. [00:48:30.130] If you, you know, choose to try doing that on purpose, you can. I don't really like doing it because I'd rather fool them, I'd rather fool them in the way that they're feeding, but, you can try it out and see what happens. But again, it's a mystery and I've seen it and it's crazy and trout shouldn't be doing it, but they are.
All right. That's the Flybox for this week. Let's go talk to Rick about [00:49:00.704] basic carp fishing and why you should do it.
Well, my guest today is Rick Mikesell. And Rick, has been in the industry a long time where he has worked for fly shops and is now sales director for Riversmith, Watercraft. And, Rick is the man. If you're talking about urban carp fishing, most people think of Rick because [00:49:30.045] he's got it really dialed in. I know, Rick, you love it. You never lose your enthusiasm for it. I've fished with you a number of times, and, I don't think I ever would have caught any Denver South Platte carp without you standing at my side. So welcome to the podcast.
Rick: Oh, thank you so much, Tom. I'm super honored to be here and, really love what you and Orvis do for the fly fishing community and all the information you've shared over the years. So I'm [00:50:00.175] glad to step in and see if I can add a little bit to that conversation and help some anglers get out and chase carp on the fly because you and I both know it's about the best thing you can do in freshwater.
Tom: It really is. It really is. In my view, it's equal to trout fishing. And sometimes, it's often more exciting than trout fishing, to be honest with you. But, you know, I feel kinda bad because over the years, I've promoted carp fishing in my [00:50:30.155] my writings and, you know, in my podcast. But, usually, when we get into talking about carp on the podcast, it's kind of, you know, a little bit more advanced stuff. And I feel bad because it's tough to dial in carp fishing. Right? There's things you gotta do first, and it's not easy. It's hard. Can be really hard, but I think it's worth it. I think the reward is [00:51:00.045] well worth the frustrations because it's the only freshwater fish I know of other than anadromous fish that will get you into your backing regularly. And, you know, it's a hard fish to get to take a fly. They will take a fly. They'll take it well at times. And, you know, it's an incredible fight. I mean, it's, you know, equal to many saltwater fish that you'd catch on a fly as far as the challenge of getting them to [00:51:30.059] hand. So, what I wanna talk about is some basics, you know, people who are curious about carp fishing or maybe who have gone out a couple times where they know there's carp and they haven't been successful, and they're frustrated, and they've given up on it. So, let's talk about let's talk about the basics and what you need to do to get into this.
Rick: Yeah. Absolutely. At the end of the day, carp are no [00:52:00.179] different than any other fish, and all we're trying to do is find a way to make our piece of feathers or glue or foam on a hook look like food and convince them to eat it. So, so long as we kinda narrow it down and just focus on putting it in front of a fish that's eating and make it look like food, all the rest is details, and you definitely don't need to overcomplicate it beyond that.
Tom: Okay. What's the most important thing?
[00:52:31.409]
Rick: So I think I'll maybe split it into two things.
Tom: Okay. Sure.
Rick: Really kinda stand on the the barrier between catching and not catching. And the first first one is really important, and that's identifying actively feeding fish. Carp that aren't eating, there's exceptions to every rule all the time. And, potentially you could convert a fish that's spooked or grumpy or fleeing or focused on spawning to eating. It [00:53:00.130] happens occasionally, but it's pretty rare. But if you see the flash of that white mouth, carp have a projectile mouth, so it drops down and the lips are separated by a big piece of white flesh. And when that fish is eating, you're gonna see that mouth opening and that flash as a white. That's a fish that should, if you present right, eat. The other really important thing to carp fishing that I think is fairly paramount to being successful is they're big for a reason. And they get big and [00:53:30.150] they put on pounds because they don't waste a lot of food energy to take in new food energy. So they're not going to move really far most of the time, expend a bunch of energy to consume some energy. So having your presentation very close to the fish's mouth where you can get it up there where he can grab it and eat it very easily and reducing the need for the fish to move or chase or follow too far, that's really gonna convert fish that maybe [00:54:00.085] you wouldn't have caught into fish that you would caught. So in super simplistic form, those are kind of the two most important things getting started is, one, only present to fish that are eating, and two, make it really easy for them to eat it.
Tom: Yeah. And that really presenting to fish that are feeding is so key because you can go to lakes or rivers, and you see fleets of carp swimming by, sometimes fairly [00:54:30.175] rapidly, just swimming mid water, sometimes close to the top, sometimes close to the bottom. And throwing a fly to those fish is frustrating. They just, like you said, they will occasionally eat, but they're not eating. And it's pretty tough to to convince them. So you really have to find them when and where they're feeding. And let's talk a little bit about the when and where. And, you know. Let's say you know there's a lake or a river [00:55:00.054] with carp in it. What are you gonna go and look for other than, obviously, feeding fish? But what kind of structure are you gonna look for? What time of day? You know, all those things that, where you know there's carp, you wanna intercept them when they're feeding.
Rick: So the really good news about carp is they don't have stomachs. So they're not gonna be able to sit and digest and take in a bunch of food and kinda store it. They always have to be eating. [00:55:31.579] So the good news is there's always opportunity to find a carp that's eating. The bad news about carp is because of that projectile mouth that we talked about, it's a giant olfactory organ. Think of, like, a nose and a tongue combined. And the second your fly touches it and realizes this isn't real food, this is a bunch of super glue and chicken feathers tied to a hook, it's gonna pick up that chemical scent and just eject it immediately. [00:56:00.329] So, you kinda have to see the eat. There's times when you can sort of feel it. There's times when they'll hook themselves, but most of the time, they're gonna put those lips around that fly and they're gonna eject it immediately. So you need to find places where you can see them. And by seeing them, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to be able to have crystal clear water. It doesn't have to be like Beaver Island or the Denver South Platte most of the time where it's gin clear and you can see everything. You just have [00:56:30.190] to be able to know where they are, know where their mouth is pointing, and be able to see at least some body language to know that they've moved to your fly and eaten it.
So the place that makes sense for that is definitely flats. So anywhere in a lake or a pond, where it's three to four inches to one to two-feet deep, where you can at least see some identifier of the fish, whether that be a tail wagging [00:57:00.369] or the entire fish, or even sometimes just pushes and bubbles, just knowing that they're there. So flats are really important and not all flats, of course, are created equal. They need to have food on them, so crayfish or leeches or aquatic worms or freshwater clams or something to eat up there. They need to have a retreat structure. So carp are really good at knowing when things are funny and not right. They can detect movement really well. [00:57:30.429] They have awesome vision. They can pick up vibration through the bank as you're walking or making noise. So they need a retreat area. So if you can find a flat that's adjacent to a deep bucket... And, in the Denver South Platte, because it's such a a narrow river channel, it's really easy to find these spots. There's a big sand flat and then a deep trough to the left. That's gonna be a carp spot.
And, carp, again, like, not to... They deserve a lot of [00:58:00.000] credit. They've been on this earth doing their thing for a long time and have gotten really good at being fish, and they're not, like, some other fish where they identify to specific structures. So a fish that you saw on Tuesday at noon probably isn't gonna be on the same flat as it is the following Wednesday at 3PM. They could move in the entire day. They're constantly moving to where they can find abundant food, retreat spaces. So it is a walking game, which is is great if you're trying to [00:58:30.139] lose some calories and and cut some weight. You spend a lot of time moving around and constantly stalking them. So posting up in one spot and hoping they're gonna come to you isn't a super effective strategy. Getting boots to the ground and walking and looking for either tailing fish or fish feeding or pushes or bubbles or anything that's gonna tell you they're there. Spend your time finding the fish and presenting, not just blind casting. It's a pretty low return game if you're just kinda hoping they're gonna come to you.
Tom: Yeah. [00:59:00.969] So keep looking. Keep moving.
Rick: And I guess from a when standpoint, they get the classification as warm water fish, but they're really comfortable in a lot of temperature ranges, and they have to eat. So around the the year, there's lots of opportunities to catch them outside of just the peak of summer. I've got them in Arizona on a 116-degree days at the hottest [00:59:30.230] of hot, and they've been super aggressive and super happy. And I catch them all through the winter in the Denver South Platte on very cold days, sometimes below freezing.
Tom: Yeah. You proved that to me one day. We caught carp in a snowstorm in December, and I never would have thought of fishing for carp at that time of year.
Rick: Yeah. Absolutely. They have to eat. So if you can find them and see them... That's kind of the one hurdle to those really cold or really hot temperature extremes. And in moving [01:00:00.050] water or smaller bodies of water where there's less deep water for them to go away to, it's a lot easier to find them in those cold temperatures. In really big lakes in the middle of winter, they're either gonna be under the ice or they're gonna be below the thermocline, super deep where the water temp's a little more comfy for them. But in the Denver South Platte, we get a five, six degree temperature swing on a warm January day, and they're gonna come up and feed, not aggressively, but more aggressively than you would expect, and you can see them clear as day.
[01:00:30.179]
Tom: I had a situation that I'd love you to help me figure out. Lake Champlain, very, very large lake, two-story lake. You know, it's got cold water species and warm water. It has giant carp, really, really big carp, and we see them a lot. And our success rate in those fish is so low is to be almost nonexistent, but I keep trying. And what I see is I see fish coming from [01:01:00.340] deeper water about midmorning, and they're traveling. And they're traveling into shallow weedy areas, and then they kinda just stay put. They kinda go to sleep amongst the weeds. Are those fish probably feeding in deep water? And then why are they coming in shallow during the day? Because you said they don't have a stomach, so I guess they're not [01:01:30.099] coming in to digest.
Rick: Yeah. I wonder if it's a temp thing, that may be, because of the thermocline, they have comfortable feeding temps in deeper water. And they're either coming up shallow to warm up a little bit if the sun's penetrated in those areas or cool down a little bit if it's cooler up where those weeds are. Are you seeing mouths moving at all when they're in those weeds?
Tom: Or Typically not. No. They're just they're just sitting [01:02:00.125] still. I mean, you can tickle one down its nose, and they'll occasionally chomp on it if you can get close enough to them. But they're usually just sitting there. And, you know, the only way you can get them is to dap them because they're, you know, they're deep in the weed beds. But we never see them, like, on a flat actively tailing and feeding.
Rick: There must be some protein source in a little bit deeper than you can see water where they're [01:02:30.065] getting lots of food. I need to come out there to Lake Champlain with you so we can solve this puzzle.
Tom: Oh, yeah. I'd love you to see that because some of them are pushing well over 20 pounds. So they're good fish.
Rick: I mean, that's the cool thing about carp, not to continue to sing their praises, but a, a massive trout or trophy trout is five pounds. A dink carp is five pounds. [01:03:00.054] That's kind of a win for them.
Tom: Yeah. One of the things that I've found, and I don't know if you found it, is that you really have to get to know each particular body of water because they can eat almost anything. Right? From clams to crayfish to baitfish to damselfly nymphs. And their behavior is often really different from one body of water to the next. So, [01:03:30.355] you know, my advice to people, I don't know if you agree with this, is to find a place where there's lots of carp that you wanna try to catch and really haunt it. Because, you know, if you bomb around to all different waters, those waters may fish differently than the one you're used to. Is that, do you find that too?
Rick: Absolutely. And I think the kind of, good news and bad news again with the varying food sources [01:04:00.094] is that they're voracious omnivores. They eat everything, whether it be plant, animal, crustacean, sometimes random stuff, scum and trash. Sometimes very high-brow pinky up stuff, like very specific bait fish. They can eat anything, and that's part of the reason they're so successful. And the really good news is that most of the time, they don't get super food-source specific. [01:04:30.974] If they're eating, say, chironomids in a still water lake, if you present a crayfish in the right way, in the right part of the water column, they're still gonna eat it. They're not gonna snub their nose like a picky brown trout would.
Tom: Uh-huh. Okay.
Rick: But you do need to be able to present to them successfully where they're at in the water column. So fly choice is way less about matching the hatch, and it's more about having [01:05:00.715] a varying degree of weights. So things that can either get down very quickly to maximize the time you present to a fish that's feeding on the bottom of a fast moving river, or things that barely sink at all that are going to stay hung up in the film for a fish that's clooping at the surface. And then from a color standpoint, I don't get super picky about my patterns. I choose patterns based on the way that they sink or [01:05:30.054] they float. It's way less about the little accessories that are tied onto them, rubber legs and claws and foam and things like that.
And color wise, I try to go for brighter things when the water's off color and more muted things when the water's clear and not much beyond that. And I only really change flies if it's not getting down or staying up when I need it to, or I see a couple of fish actively refuse it. Other than that, I'll stick to it and know that maybe it's just a little tweak in my presentation [01:06:00.235] that I need to make to get them to eat. And 99% of the time, I'm fishing a tungsten jig wooly bugger in lakes and ponds in the river, very heavy in the river for current, very light in lakes when there's no current. But other than that, it's about as simple of a fly as you can get, and carp all across the country tend to wanna eat it.
Tom: Tungsten jig wooly bugger. And what size range do you carry and weight range?
Rick: I guess as big as you [01:06:30.005] can get away with. I mean, the bigger the hook and the more hook point there is, the more likely you're gonna hook them. If they're bigger fish with bigger mouths as big as a two, in smaller lakes and ponds, maybe a six or an eight, but not too much variance outside of that.
Tom: You don't go much beyond an eight? You don't go much smaller than an eight?
Rick: No. I mean, there's super unique times when they're actually sucking down mayflies or trichos. We'll see it [01:07:00.039] really late in the summer on the Denver South Platte where fish will get into a ball of trichos and just suck them down like a trout would. And in that time, you can either throw a big tungsten jig wooly bugger in there and maybe catch one, or you can consistently present by matching the hatch with a a tiny little trico. And in that time, it's fun, and it's cool to watch them eat what they're actually hatching on. But if you hook a 15, 16-pound carp on [01:07:30.389] a size 18 or 20 dry fly hook, the chances of it popping out or straightening or things going bad quickly are pretty high. So it's more just kind of a fun experiment than it is an actual fish catching pursuit.
Tom: And you like jig hooks? You like jig hooks for carp?
Rick: I do like jig hooks, because you can impart so much micro movement in it. Like I was saying earlier, they don't like to chase. They don't like to work really hard to consume food, but it [01:08:00.039] needs to look like real food. So the benefit of a jig fly is just with a little twitch at the tip or by throwing a little wiggle in the line, that fly is gonna bounce and dance and look either like a fleeing crayfish or a leech burrowing into the soil. And the jig action really gives it that very subtle action without having to do a lot of work and really move the fly. So that's one of the big benefits. And the other big benefit of a jig fly is it gets down quickly, and most of our active presentations are detailing fish, and so you gotta be in the [01:08:30.020] substrate where their mouth is working. So if you can cut through that water column without a lot of splash and get it into the zone quick, then you're gonna get an eat.
Tom: Okay. So let's talk about the the all important presentation. All right? That's probably, once you found them feeding, that's it, right? The fly is, as you're saying, probably not that important, but the presentation is everything. So, what do you look for?
[01:09:01.590]
Rick: Well, first step is you have to be able to see them eat. And we know that fly placement is really important because they're not gonna chase it so far. So the closer you can get to the fish, one, the better you can see, and two, the more control you have over the fly. So getting good at being sneaky will really help your chances of success go up. So learning how to creep up on a fish without cracking logs or jingling your [01:09:30.079] keys or making a bunch of movement. They have really good movement detection in their periphery. So if you can creep up on them, they don't have great focus outside of about maybe six inches to a foot, but they have good movement detection. So if you get good on creeping without flailing around or throwing up your arms, you can get surprisingly close to them. A lot of fish that I catch are within essentially the length of the rod to me, and I can just reach out, kind of do a pendulum cast and set it in [01:10:00.060] their zone, get it going. And I don't have a lot of splash because I'm not having the fly plop down on the water. They don't like noise. They don't like splash, so we need to get it to them without splashing a bunch.
Tom: Yeah. Explain a pendulum cast, Rick, because it may be something that people aren't familiar with. And I think that's important with carp.
Rick: So when you get super close to these fish and you have a bunch of stuff behind you, trees and bushes and things, [01:10:30.604] a quick flip, is kinda tough. And with a bow and arrow cast, I'd like to be better at it, but I'm not great at it. I feel like with my lack of skill with the bow and arrow, I don't have a ton of accuracy, particularly with a heavy fly. So the pendulum cast, essentially I can use the weight of the fly, I can lift my rod tip as high as the overhanging trees allow me, and I can get that fly swinging, and the weight of the fly back is gonna push it forward. And with a couple swings, [01:11:00.064] by kind of controlling my rod tip and getting that pendulum motion going, I can get that fly pushed out as much line and leader as I have out of the tip out to the fish. And then as it's about to drop into the water, I can pause with my arm and hold my rod tip and really incubate that splash into the water.
So I can essentially push it out, set it where I want it, pick up some of that splash so it's not splashy, and then control it as it goes down in the water column so I can just drop it right [01:11:30.015] where I want it. Ideally, two and a half to three inches right off the face of the fish. And in that, I don't have to worry about spooking them potentially with overhand casting. I don't have to worry about accuracy loss with my kinda crummy bow and arrow cast. And I have a ton of control the second it hits the water. I don't have to pick up a bunch of line slack or anything like that. Really effective cast.
Tom: Yeah. It it is. And and I know that when we'ren fishing for bowfin, that's my friend Drew Price has [01:12:00.255] shown me that that's almost essential because when you plop the fly in, it spooks them. But if you pendulum cast, it just kinda slides into the water and doesn't scare them.
Rick: It's pretty amazing when you get good and practice it a little bit. You can essentially put that fly through the surface film without any splash. It's just essentially breaking through at an even speed, and it doesn't spook the fish at all, and it's deadly.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about where you want the fly in relation to [01:12:30.125] the fish because that's, you know, that angle is super important.
Rick: Yeah. Absolutely. So, think about a standard size dinner plate going out from the fish's barbels out in front of them. And that, in most cases, is about as much as they're willing to move to eat the fly. In places where the fish are really hot and bothered and feeling good about life and eating aggressively, they'll definitely chase it five, six, [01:13:00.274] seven feet, but most of the cases, they won't. And in the wintertime when water temps are cold and their metabolism is really slow, you need to shrink that dinner plate down to a tea saucer, because they're really not gonna expend any energy to get there. They wanna just, slide over and just kinda open those lips and suck it up.
So the big challenge we have is, we talked about we're using heavy flies in a lot of circumstances, and we know that they have that Weberian organ that, organ that functions kinda like an eardrum that [01:13:30.045] picks up sound and vibration, kinda similar to how our eardrums do. So if we have it splash right in that super tight area in front of their face, they're gonna spook immediately. So that's where we use the drag and drop technique to really get nice and tight to them and get that fly presented well. So the drag and drop technique is pretty simple. You cast, whether it be a pendulum cast, or an overhand cast, or roll cast, whatever you're using in the situation, maybe four to six feet outside of the fish's periphery so [01:14:00.375] that splash when the fly hits the water isn't gonna spook them.
As soon as it hits the water, you immediately lift your rod tip up way high and you kinda slide the fly right on the surface film across the top of the water column, and then as soon as you're in that dinner plate zone, you release that tension and the fly falls on its own weight freely down to the bottom. Or if it's mid column, you kinda pause it mid column where they're hanging. And the beauty of that is if a fly's coming across [01:14:30.284] the surface film, there's all kinds of stuff going on in the surface film. Leaves, birds flying around, shadows from trees. They're super used to seeing stuff moving around up there, so it's not gonna throw them off. If you do that slide in the middle of the water column, think about that predator prey relationship. If you're a a 2-inch crayfish and there's a 20-pound carp that's probably gonna eat you, you're never in any day of the year gonna race at them as fast as you can right [01:15:00.154] towards its mouth, and carp have picked up that that's not natural. That really important tip is prey never swims toward the predator. So you always wanna make sure that anytime you're moving towards the fish, it's outside of their kind of feeding window zone, outside of their eyesight line. You can get away with it out there if you do it in that zone. They're going to kind of freak out immediately knowing that prey never swims towards a predator.
And this is kind of one of the challenges I have with some of my guide clients [01:15:30.034] that are really competent trout anglers. In trout fishing, we worked on the drift, and we try to have food drift into the fish's periphery so they can eat it. And this is counterproductive in carp fishing. We wanna have the food pop up in their zone. And if it's gonna do any movement, it's always gonna be fleeing or moving away. So, there are instances, and we saw it when we fished in the wintertime, Tom, when, indicator fishing or traditional trout [01:16:00.484] tactics can work, but those are most of the time the exception to the rule. And you always want it to be moving away like you would with, like, a bonefish or a a permit, fleeing prey.
So once you get it into that dinner plate, the best thing to do if you got it close enough is just stop and leave it. Everything's happening really fast in this. Your blood's racing because you see the fish. You're waiting for the eat. It sounds way simpler when we're talking about it, but in the heat of the moment, everything's happened in [01:16:30.100] the blink of an eye. But most of the time, once you get it into that zone, so long as the fish sees it, it's either gonna eat or it's gonna spook. And if it eats, set the hook. If it spooks, you either did something wrong or you don't have quite the right fly pattern, something along those lines.
There are the occasions where the fish doesn't do anything. It didn't see it. And that's where those micro movements come into play. So using flies that have a bunch of marabou or a little piece of foam [01:17:00.189] tied in the tail or something that's just gonna stand there and undulate, that's kind of step one in the micro movement pyramid just to get something to catch their eye. Step two is really subtle twitches. So just giving it a little bump with the rod tip or bumping it up an inch, moving it just so the fish catches that eye. And as soon as the fish sees it, it's gonna react, and you wanna kinda follow through with that. Just kinda tease it away, almost like playing cat and mouse, with, like, a piece of [01:17:30.079] feather on the end of a string with a cat. Just kinda tease it away from them. And so long as you don't overdo it and move it too far out of the zone where they're gonna not expend the energy to chase it down, there's gonna be kind of that critical apex where the fish realizes if I don't eat this now, it's gonna get away from me. And they just pounce on it, see that white mouth flare and you set the hook.
If you, for some reason, the fish doesn't react at all even though you've given it some twitches or you've given it a bump and it's not doing anything, [01:18:00.255] just keep bumping it out of that zone. And once you're outside of that dinner plate, just pick it up and put it right back there in there again. And on the second time, either on the fall or when it hits the substrate and kicks up some dust, usually it'll get their attention and they'll react by either eating or spooking.
Tom: So with the drag and drop, are are the fish, do you want the fish to see it on the way down, or do you wanna wait until it hits the bottom and then twitch it, or both? What what's the [01:18:30.185] what's the best approach to it?
Rick: Depends on the fish. Some fish will see it on the way down and think something just kinda falls in their periphery and pounce on it. Yep. Some fish wanna find it on the bottom and have it be kind of something was half buried or burrowing in, and then they surprised it and it popped up. There's not really a hard and fast rule with that, and it's just gonna take playing with it. The more consistent of the speed that it falls, [01:19:00.154] you don't want it plummeting too fast that it makes a bunch of noise, or you don't want it plummeting too slow that when it finally hits the substrate, the fish has already moved seven inches to the left, and you're not in the zone anymore. That's kind of the magic recipe. It's just getting a consistent, even steady fall to the bottom.
Tom: Okay. And that's why the weight that you choose is so important.
Rick: Exactly. Yeah. And I definitely fish heavier flies than most of my peers.We all catch fish, and it's one of those crazy things [01:19:30.024] that there's a million recipes to make the same end product. But my theory is the quicker I can get it down to where that fish is feeding, the less likely that fish is going to have time to spook or have time to move, and I can really control the variables if I'm down in that zone quickly.
Tom: And what kinda angle do you wanna be if possible? What kinda angle do you want between you and a feeding carp? You know? I mean, the [01:20:00.114] carp are always are typically moving in a particular direction, right? What's the best angle to have between you and the fish?
Rick: The best angle is the one you get, unfortunately. A lot of times, you're gonna have one pop up and you're gonna be in a precarious situation where there's a tree poking in your leg and there's two logs on one side. I was fishing after work last night, and [01:20:30.005] there was some fish feeding on a a drain that feeds a kind of a bottom release spillway. There was a bunch of sticks that were stuck on it, and they were pulling stuff out of those sticks. And all the fish that we're feeding were on the opposite side of this square drain, So I had to cast over the drain, over all the sticks, have it land outside of the fish, and then drag and drop and let it sit right on the sticks. And needless to say, I had three shots. Two of them, I snagged on sticks, and [01:21:00.010] the third one, I missed completely, and I blew all those shots. So what they give you.
But if you have the luxury, in still water when you're not dealing with current, these fish have a blind spot. So their eyes are kinda down towards the side of their head, and they operate independently. And they're generally looking forward and down in most cases. And then [01:21:30.359] because they're big fish, they have that big belly that kinda separates and blocks that eyesight because it pokes out beyond their field of vision. So in still water, if you can get behind the fish and it's looking away from you and you can reach up over the top of them or cast past them over the top of them and drag up to their their mouth, then you have a real advantage because it's less likely they're gonna see you. So in still water, I like to try and get behind the fish if at all possible for shorter shots. For longer shots where you're casting [01:22:00.220] maybe 30, 40 feet of fly line out, you wanna be able to see the fly as best as you can and present. So usually, that's either a fish moving right or moving left kinda perpendicular to you. Or in some cases, casting over the back of the fish, bringing it up over the surface film and dropping it right on their nose when they're facing eye to eye directly with you at distance.
In the river, when we have moving water, the best-case scenario for presentation [01:22:30.560] is, presenting to a fish downstream when it's feeding upstream. And the big advantage that we have there is we're not fighting the current. The current's working in our benefit. So we can cast out at maybe, like, a 45 or 90-degree angle, pick that fly up into the surface film, and use the current to swing and control it and be able to present it right in front of that fish and drop it right in the zone. If you're casting upstream and the fish is facing upstream and you're trying to fight that current, most of the time it's just [01:23:00.005] blasting the fly down past the fish and you're behind them every time, and it can get a little frustrating.
Tom: So, yeah, I'm starting to get why you wanna slide that fly when you drag and drop right at the surface because let's say you're behind the fish, right, it's facing away from you. And if you if you move that fly into the fish's vision mid column, they're gonna see it coming at them. Right? And that's gonna scare them for sure. So you want it [01:23:30.034] to be, even if you got a going-away shot, you want it up on the surface and then drop it, let it drop right in front of them.
Rick: And, I mean, we're all not perfect casters, and we all make bad casts all the time. And if you keep that fly up high, you can potentially save that bad cast and get it in the fish's zone without having to pick up and recast. The other benefit is if you keep it high all the time, even if you did make a bad cast, you're [01:24:00.175] not gonna spook the fish when you pick up and cast again because it's out of their kind of caution zone. So if it ends up in the wrong place and you're up in the top of the column immediately, just pick it back up and put it right back down, and you don't have to worry about blowing the shot.
Tom: Yeah. Plus if you just touch them with the leader, they're done. They're done.
Rick: Game over. The worst the worst part about that aspect of carp is when you spook one, they actually emit a stress [01:24:30.015] pheromone. And that stress pheromone can get picked up by all the other fish around them that says, "Hey, something's something's not right. We need to get out of here." And one blown shot at one fish potentially blow the shots at all the other fish in the area that could pick up that chemical trail. So, that's another reason it's important not to a cast at a not-eating fish because spooking that fish could potentially ruin your shot at a happy eating fish just downstream.
Tom: Okay. So and if you spook a fish and they're [01:25:00.145] kinda grouped up, you probably should move. Right? At least for a while, you should go somewhere else.
Rick: Yeah. I mean, it depends on how many fish are around and how happy the fish are. There's definitely a reset period. It could be two minutes. It could be another fish slides upstream or downstream or in and is reset. But a lot of times, I'm walking to the next pot of fish couple hundred yards upstream, and I'll come back to that one maybe an hour or so later and see if they've reset.
Tom: Okay. [01:25:30.305] Rick, any particular time of day that you find is better than others?
Rick: The time of day consideration is just for your vision. The middle of the day with high sun, it's going to be the absolute easiest to see them. It's also going to be the absolute easiest for them to see you. So it's kind of a another blessing and a curse that really easy for you to see where they're at, where they're feeding, where your fly is. But if you're not presenting [01:26:00.635] perfectly, you're throwing shadows potentially or, they're seeing your movement and they're spooking. What I found over the years is getting good at seeing them in really crummy weather or really bad light is a huge advantage. If you can figure out how to fish in the early mornings when it's a little too dark or just as a nature of my busy life, I have to fish in the evenings in the dark just because it's the only time I have to fish when I get off work. It's really hard to see [01:26:30.085] them, but it's also really hard for them to see you. So if you can know where they're at, know where they're feeding, you can get a lot closer and you can get away with quite a few more bad presentations. The same holds true with muddy water. If the water's off color and muddy, you can get away with a lot more because they're not seeing you make those mistakes. And it's a little harder to know when they've eaten, but you get a lot more shots at them and can really ramp up the catching.
Tom: Yeah. I've had some of my [01:27:00.189] best days on, like, drizzly, dark, rainy days, and sometimes the visibility is pretty good if there's really dark clouds on the horizon or you got trees behind them. And you're right, you can get closer, and they seem to eat better on, you know, most people like to fish them in bright sunlight, but I prefer, if I can, to fish on a lousy day.
Rick: Yeah. Very much so. And carp, do respond, to approaching fronts [01:27:30.020] and that barometric pressure change. There's definitely a marked behavioral change as a front's coming in and kind of the peak worst part of the front when that pressure just dumps. Those fish know that things are changing and they eat pretty aggressively, and that's when you can get those days where they they chase flies and, you feel them eat instead of see them eat and get those really cool kind of exciting unique situations.
Tom: Do you find that there's an optimum temperature for carp? I know [01:28:00.050] you fish them in all temperatures. Is there one that you like the best?
Rick: Yeah. That early summer, probably water temps in the high 60s into the maybe the high 70s seems to be when they do the cool things that make people really excited to carp fish. Chase flies a couple feet, and then, of course, take you into backing. When you hook a [01:28:30.020] fish in the middle of January, it's still an 8 to 10-pound fish, but it's like pulling in 8 to 10-pounds of wet sock.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Rick: When you hook an 8 to 10-pound fish in mid June when water temps are in the low 70s, that first run could be 25 yards in the backing, and that's where it gets really exciting.
Tom: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Now how about, some areas of the country right now are gonna be seeing some spawning fish, and that's frustrating. You see them rolling. [01:29:00.170] You see them jumping. You see them splashing, chasing each other. And you usually, they're, you know, they're not eating, and it can be tough. But, what do you do when you encounter some spawners?
Rick: So spawning fish, is actually a really cool opportunity if you kinda change the way you think about targeting them. So first, to point out, targeting spawning carp is not an ethical concern whatsoever. [01:29:31.234] There's no reds. There's no nothing to step on and hurt the population. They're broadcast spawners, so the female, the big female, will spew millions and millions of eggs, and the males, four, three to five of them will jockey behind. And as she's spewing them out, they'll try to fertilize them, and that's where you see the crashing and splashing and all the craziness. And all those millions of eggs stick to absolutely anything that they can stick to. I've had some [01:30:00.364] some eggs fall on my shoe, and they just you have to scrape them off with a razor blade. They're so sticky. The good news is you can fish to them while they're spawning, and there is absolutely nothing you can do to impact their success. They're gonna be highly successful regardless.
Tom: Yeah.
Rick: The bad news is when they're actively spawning, they're focused on procreating. They don't care about eating at all, except for the female. And that's kind of a really [01:30:30.215] fun, if you wanna to challenge yourself, is to find one of those spawn balls, identify the big female in the front. And most of the time, you'll see that female, that mouth is still moving. And if you can successfully present to that female while she's getting smashed on by a bunch of males, she'll definitely eat. And it might give her a little reprieve from getting pestered by all these males.
So it's not easy, because they're [01:31:00.125] moving and they're rolling and they're thrashing, but it's pretty cool when it happens. The other advantage of the spawn, though, is that, like I said earlier, they don't have stomachs, they're not storing food. So they're expending a ton of energy. And when they're not actively spawning, they are feeding aggressively. So if you can go out and find those spawn balls and then start looking in the areas adjacent to where they're rolling around, usually places with vegetation, submerged willows, weed beds, sticks, and things [01:31:30.114] like that. Usually, there's a bunch of males and even a few big females that are in those things just gorging. And because they've just been exhausted from spawning and because they're so hungry and they wanna regain those calories, they usually don't care that much and you can get away with a lot and they eat pretty aggressively. Up until this rain rolled through here in Colorado, we've been in peak spawn the last couple weeks, and we've had some pretty bomber days on both the river and some stillwater lakes, finding where those [01:32:00.145] fish are recovering post spawn and eating those calories and just cleaning up on really nice fish.
Tom: Well, that's good to hear because I've and, you know, I've kind of in the past avoided, when they're spawning, but sounds like there's some opportunities even then.
Rick: Yeah. Absolutely. And keep in mind that that spawning window is a temp thing. So about 64 degrees is when they spawn. And they can spawn multiple times throughout the year. If we have a fall day [01:32:30.034] that the water temp gets to 64 degrees, they could start spawning again.
Tom: Oh, really?
Rick: But later in the afternoon when it either gets above that or they're kind of exhausted, all those fish that were rolling around at noon are gonna be feeding and regaining those calories. So, coming back later in the day if you're seeing spawners can be a really good technique.
Tom: Okay. That's a good that's a really good tip. That's a great tip. I'm learning so much. I'm always learning from you, Rick, and [01:33:00.125] I'm learning so much just doing this podcast.
Rick: That's the greatest thing about fly fishing, Tom, is like, we could do this our entire lives to all kinds of levels, and there's still a thousand things to learn and a thousand new things to try.
Tom: Tell me about it. Tell me about it. Well, that has been a great primer on carp fishing, and I hope we've convinced some people that have avoided carp fishing to give it a try. You know, they're [01:33:30.034] so great. They're everywhere and, everywhere from the, you know, the Rocky Mountains to I mean, I saw some carp in Labrador once. People didn't believe me, but they were definitely carp in a lake. But they're everywhere, and they're in urban areas. And, you know, they can thrive in places where other fish can't. And, yes, they're invasive, but they were brought over about the same time as brown trout. And brown trout are [01:34:00.085] invasive. So, you know, people shouldn't look down on them. And they're here to stay. They ain't going anywhere.
Rick: The interesting fact about Colorado is, carp were brought over from a German stock actually sponsored by the government in 1879 and stocked in the Denver South Platte.
Tom: Wow.
Rick: Brown trout, rainbow trout, all the non-native trout species were two to five years later than common carp.
Tom: No kidding.
Rick: Slightly [01:34:30.305] less invasive here in Colorado than some of the trout that we hold in high regard. So, interesting to think about.
Tom: Yeah. Really interesting. And they were brought over here as a food fish. And so, not so much as a sport fish, but, we're discovering that they are for sure.
Rick: Absolutely. I mean, in Europe, they are held with the highest of high regard.
Tom: Oh, yeah.
Rick: The industry and the community over there is more extreme than our bass fishing [01:35:00.305] community is here in the States. They are the king of kings over there, and it's kinda nice to see them starting to get the respect they deserve here in the States.
Tom: Yeah. Of course, they do a lot of betting on their carp fishing too. We don't do much betting on ours. A lot of money involved in some of those carp tournaments.
Rick: Oh, absolutely.
Tom: I hope that never happens here. All right, Rick. Well, any parting thoughts for people who are considering [01:35:30.079] chasing these fascinating creatures?
Rick: Yeah. I think, while they are a challenging pursuit, that is part of the reason that they're either...regarded pursuit is you can do this game. I mean, I've been doing it for two decades, and I still get skunked. I got skunked last night. It happens. If it were easy, it wouldn't be fun, and that's what keeps you coming back. But the flip side of that is you don't need to overcomplicate it. They need to [01:36:00.210] eat and they eat lots of things. So, so long as you can put a fly in front of them without spooking them, chances are they're probably gonna eat it. And you wanna make sure you have the proper tackle so you don't break them off immediately. Definitely don't go out there with with 3x or 4x. You want some heavy stuff, 12 to 16 pound, but so long as you come well gunned, they're gonna give you the pull of a lifetime. And don't let equipment be the limiting factor either. They are big fish, [01:36:30.050] but a five weight is plenty adequate. If you keep doing it for a long time, eventually you're gonna have a mishap and that five weight may finally fail. But if that's all you have, there's no reason to not go out and do it because you can feed them, and they will pull hard, and you'll have a lot of fun.
Tom: Yeah. With that being said, for your waters there, what's your favorite configuration rod and line?
Rick: So, for most of the year, guiding season, peak season, I'm fishing Helios [01:37:01.069] D nine-foot seven-weight. And the D I like because I'm fishing heavy flies. I can load it quickly and get it out to where I need it to go. And the seven weight seems to be the perfect kind of middle ground to fight the fish quick enough that I'm not really wasting too much time. Carp fight should only be a couple minutes. You don't want it to be a half an hour, so the seven weight is really adequate [01:37:30.359] for that. For the rest of the year, I'm fishing, nine-foot six-weight, and I like that just because it's a little more fun, a little bit more flex.
And then when you really wanna have some fun, glass rods are a ton of fun. The glass rods can limit you on your ability to present accurately, and that's kind of a negative if you're really hyper focused, like, I gotta catch. I gotta catch. But when, it's maybe not so important to have perfect presentations, [01:38:00.579] you can bend those glass rods all the way to the cork, and they're really efficient at fighting the fish. You know, every head shake and every bounce, and it's a ton of fun. And I just picked up a new Superfine Carbon seven six five weight. And I haven't had the chance to carp fish with it yet. That's my next goal is to hook a carp on that and just see how deep I can bend that thing into the cork.
Tom: Oh, that's gonna be fun. I hope you take some videos of that.
Rick: I definitely will.
Tom: All right, [01:38:30.135] Rick. Well, it's been great talking to you, and thanks so much for sharing your knowledge. Really appreciate that.
Rick: Awesome. I'm very happy to do it. And, I don't know if it's possible, Tom, but is there any way I could give a Denver Trout Unlimited carp slam shout out?
Tom: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. We almost forgot. Go ahead.
Rick: Awesome. Well, the other really important thing about carp fishing, particularly in the Denver community, [01:39:00.489] is it's united a lot of urban anglers together in the name of conservation. And we have a super special fishery in the Denver South Platte that it was long neglected. It was polluted. It was thought of for, a lot of my life, as a open sewer that wasn't worth fishing. And the reality is there were a lot of folks behind the scenes, both in the government, in the local municipalities, [01:39:31.095] and the folks that manage it that have been doing a lot of hard work to get that river into a very healthy, very clean, very cool fishery. And I do sit as vice president on the Denver Trout Unlimited board. We've done a lot of work over the past 20 or 30 years to help these municipalities make good decisions to benefit the river. And one of the really cool things is that a lot of fisheries these days, [01:40:00.204] you hear folks say, "Oh, it was better 10 years ago or it was better last year." And the Denver South Platte is a fishery where year after year, I see it get better with my own eyes. It's cleaner. It's clearer. The variety of fish is exploding. We're seeing healthy smallmouth bass, walleye, rainbow trout, lots and lots of carp. The river fishes better every year. It's cleaner every year. And because it's a public resource, there's a ton of public access.
So folks [01:40:30.185] that live in Colorado have a place to go fish that's safe and clean and catch a lot of really cool, really big fish all the time. And Denver Trout Unlimited does do a tournament every September. This year, it's gonna be on September 13 called the carp slam. And the carp slam is a full-day tournament where you pair up a avid carp angler that we call a slambassador that kind of serves as a fishing guide to some degree, but more just an ambassador for the coolness [01:41:00.005] of the river and a slamature who is a angler that maybe wants to learn about the fishery or wants to kinda test out some newly-gained carp fishing skills. And it is the most fun full day of fishing you can have in an urban city. And the end goal is to raise a ton of money for all the things we're doing for the Denver South Platte. And this year, our big initiative is just picking up trash. We're gonna clean as much trash out of the river as humanly possible. So we need all the the [01:41:30.104] money we can to schedule those cleanups, to organize those cleanups, and to invest in some litter-removing technology in the river.
So if you're in the Denver area and you want to support your home river and have a really fun day of carp fishing, We are looking for amateur competitors. We're also looking for volunteers, and we want folks just to come out and have fun with us at the party that flanks it. It's a ton of fun. So, Orvis has always been a huge [01:42:00.015] sponsor and really taking great care of us with with prizes and funds to the cause, and we're super grateful for that. And if you're in the Denver area or plan on being in the Denver area in mid September, check out Denver Trout Unlimited and come be a part of the carp slam.
Tom: Where can people get more information on it? Is there a website that specifically deals with the carp slam?
Rick: Yep. Super easy. It's just carpslam.org.
Tom: Carpslam.org. People can remember that one. Yeah. And they can donate. Even if they can't attend the tournament, they could donate [01:42:30.345] to a great cause and maybe participate.
Rick: Absolutely. Yeah. I look forward to it every year, and the more folks we get involved, the better the river keeps getting and getting.
Tom: Yeah. I've never been able to make it, and I've always wanted to come. So maybe some year I'll be able to make it out there.
Rick: We'd love to have you, Tom.
Tom: Oh, it'd be fun. I'd love to do it. All right, Rick. Thank you so much, and, I'm sure I'll be talking to you soon.
[01:43:00.284]
Rick: Awesome, Tom. Well, thanks so much for having me. Next time you're in town, let's get out and hit the DSP.
Tom: Oh, you know I'll be calling you.
Rick: Awesome, Tom. I look forward to it.
Tom: Okay, Rick. Thanks.
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