What fly-fishing's trade association does for conservation, with Lucas Bissett
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast. This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer, and my guest this week is Lucas Bissett. Lucas is the executive director of AFFTA, which is the American Fly Fishing Trade Association. Yes, we do [00:00:30.059] have a trade association in the fly fishing business. And what we're going to talk about is the AFFTA Fisheries Fund, which provides small grants for education and restoration to organizations that maybe can't apply for bigger grants or don't have the resources to apply for bigger grants. So it's kind of a grassroots program.
And you [00:01:00.700] might wonder, "Well, why does a trade association worry about conservation or restoration or education?" But if the industry realizes that if we don't have wild fish to fish for and a great resource, then it's not going to be much of a fly fishing market. And I think we all know that. So anyway, we're going to talk about that. And we're going to talk specifically about one aspect of it, which is the changing migration and distribution [00:01:30.060] patterns of saltwater fish and why we need to revise our management of these fish stocks and also how you can have an influence in how we manage these fish stocks, particularly in the Atlantic. According to Lucas, the government organizations under NOAA that regulate these [00:02:00.319] fish stocks are very open to public input. So you'll learn how you can do it and more about the AFFTA Fisheries Fund.
And before we do the Fly Box, just a tip on a new product that you may have missed. These are the new Pro LT wading pants, and they're the same material and same construction as the new Pro LT waders, [00:02:30.120] which I'm absolutely in love with. But they're a pant design. And well, why would you want wading pants instead of chest high waders? Well, there's a lot of advantages. In hot weather, you know, you don't really want to wear waders that come all the way up to your chest. It's hotter and, you know, you're often not wading that deep. Small stream fishing, you know, a lot of people still wear hip boots on small streams where the water is cold.
[00:03:00.340] I mean, a lot of us wet wade on small streams, but, you know, when the water is colder, you're not going to be wading that deep. And it's much nicer to wear just a pair of wading pants and hip boots, because those of you who wear hip boots know that invariably, you're going to get your fly stuck on the far bank and you're going to have to go through a deep pool and you're going to go over your upper thighs. And you know how that feels in cold water.
The wading pants are also [00:03:30.080] great in boats where you don't really need a pair of chest waders when you're working a boat, a belly boat or a canoe, or a drift boat. And a lot of people like wading pants, believe it or not, in the wintertime because, you know, with a really cold water, you often don't want to wade very deep in the wintertime. So they're useful. And also, they're 100 bucks less than the Pro LT waders. So if you never need actual chest waders, it's a good way to save yourself some money, save yourself some [00:04:00.159] weight and stay cooler in the summertime.
All right, now let's do the Fly Box. And the Fly Box is where you ask me questions or pass along a tip and I read them on the air and try to answer your questions or acknowledge your tip. And you can send your tips to me, your tips, or your questions, at
The first question. You know what? Let's really go wild here. I always start out with an email. Let's start out with a voice call. So Irma, that's a good question. And, [00:05:00.319] you know, I can tell you how I approach it may not be the way other people approach it. But here's how I approach it. If both flies are about the same size, let's say you're fishing two little midge patterns on a tailwater and one is not working at all, then, yeah, I'd change the other one.
Irma: Thanks again for all you do for all of us.
Tom: If you're using one fly that's a lot bigger or brighter or much different than the fly that [00:05:30.279] is working, there's no guarantee that those fish aren't attracted by that bigger fly. Or maybe the bigger fly is acting like an anchor and it's getting your smaller fly deeper. So if the one that's not working is much bigger, brighter, heavier than the one that is working, I would think twice about changing that because there may be something about the combination that works for you.
I know that [00:06:00.399] very recently I was fishing with guide, Darryl Dagen, out of Fly Fishing Outfitters in Avon, Colorado, and he was fishing this local river. And he was using a bright-colored egg fly with a midge nymph and he didn't catch any fish on the bright-colored egg fly at all. But he thought that the egg fly was acting as an attractor to catch the fish's attention. It caught their [00:06:30.000] attention and then they went for the smaller midge fly, which was more subtle and more realistic. So, you know, there is a chance that that other fly is attracting fish to the fly that is productive.
All right. Now let's do an email. This one's from Ben. "I had emailed you before about an upcoming trip I had to Idaho. First time there for me. And I wanted to let you know it was absolutely fantastic, backpacking [00:07:00.199] and fishing for a week in the wilderness of Idaho. Before we flew out of Boise, I wanted to visit a local fly shop and pick up a hat to support them and did not realize just how close Three Rivers Ranch Outfitters was, and had to make a stop there. Excellent shop and staff. I was quite impressed and now wear their hat with pride.
Anyway, we were fishing lots of deep holes in pocket water for cutties and rainbows and were somewhat surprised our average size was 10 to 12 inches and had expected, from reports [00:07:30.259] we had heard, sizes to be close to 15 inches, plus some bull trout. Couple thoughts I had on this. One, the snowpack was lower than usual this year and two, the water before we arrived temperature had been 100 degrees and above.
I did check the water temp each day we fished it and found it to be appropriate for trout fishing around 60 to 68 degrees, though higher than I expected to be. Still, we encountered some really deep holes and we thought [00:08:00.000] we saw a few rather large flashes, but never could get anything to rise up and out. My best guess is that the larger trout wanted really, really cold water and would not come out into the warmer temps. I contemplated fishing at 3 to 5 a.m. to confirm this, though ran out of time thinking of it before our trip end. What are your thoughts? Every day we easily caught 25-plus trout, often passing over good fishing spots to get to even nicer ones. So the fish are there."
[00:08:31.319] Well, Ben, a couple things to consider. One is that the temperature in a deep pool is really not that much colder than the rest of the river. Unless there's a spring coming in at the bottom of that deep hole, water in a river is always moving and it doesn't stratify very much, if at all. And there's constant turbulence that mixes the water and water gives up its heat very reluctantly. [00:09:00.379] Water is a great insulator, as we all know. So I don't think those deeper holes would have necessarily been any better than the shallower water.
And the other thing is that if you're after cutthroats, cutthroats tend to like shallow water. They tend to feed in shallow water. They may hide in really deep pools, but when they're feeding, they're going to be 2 to 4 feet deep. That's the preferred feeding depth of trout in general. So I don't think you were [00:09:30.100] missing anything. And maybe you should have tried some shallower, faster water instead of just fishing the deep holes. However, you know, I wouldn't be disappointed with 10 to 12-inch fish.
If you had had reports that the fish were, you know, closer to 15 inches and you only caught them 10 to 12 inches, well, who knows? The people that gave you those reports could have been overestimating the size of the fish. And, you know, [00:10:00.220] some streams have populations that fluctuate and maybe there aren't any 15 inches or not as many 15 inches in there as there used to be. Maybe there's a year class that had a rough time. So I wouldn't be disappointed in what you caught.
As far as the bull trout is concerned, you know, I don't really know how to fish for a bull trout because the streams where I have fished that [00:10:30.019] had bull trout, you're not supposed to target them. So I've never really bothered trying to catch them in some of the streams they occur just because I haven't been in rivers where it's okay to target them. So I haven't really messed with them. So I can't help you there. But as far as the cutties and the rainbows, I don't think you were missing anything except the fact that you might have tried some faster, shallower water.
Here's [00:11:00.820] an email from Adam from Cochrane, Alberta, Canada. "I'm a longtime listener of your podcast. I listen to it religiously every morning and end of day driving home from work. I love the Fly Box and podcast topics. For all the information you've shared, I can easily say I've become a better angler for it. I have one tip and two questions.
My tip. When doing a hopper dropper setup, I like to sometimes do a double dropper, typically with a black beadhead stone fly off a prince beadhead nymph. I've [00:11:30.039] noticed when doing this, though, the current and weight usually pulls my hopper down and I miss out on strikes because I can't see my hopper anymore. Though the hoppers are made of foam, it just doesn't seem buoyant enough to support my rig. I've started looking at my pinch-on strike indicators in a different way, depending on the size, style of the hopper. I've been able to take either one side or both of the pinch-on foam indicator and stick it onto the dry back of the hopper. Must be dry or it won't work as well. This not only provides [00:12:00.240] some extra clarity of where your hopper is on the water, given they are vibrant orange and green, but it helps keep my hopper from going under, which has proved useful on a number of trout.
Question one. When targeting the hard-slamming brown trout in turbid water, I've learned they like deep channels in undercut banks and flashy Wooly Buggers. I'm new to streamer fishing and have a 6-weight 9-foot rod with the Orvis Battenkill 3.56" weight reel. What a great reel, by the way. [00:12:30.320] Since there are a number of streamers that can be used, I'm curious how to fish the famous Wooly Bugger and how to present it best in or on a small stream for browns in slow-moving turbid water.
I've tied a Wooly Bugger on once and tried casting it out to a backside pocket, but it doesn't seem to sink very well. I then felt as if I was stripping it back. I was so close to the surface of the water, it wasn't doing much at all. Should I put some split shot above it to make it sink faster? Do I cast up close as I can to the [00:13:00.059] bank, wait for the streamer to sink a bit, and then start stripping it back fast? Should I be using a sink tip? The creek I'm looking at is mostly shallow with some deep pockets and a beaver dam, very brushy as well. Any tips would be great.
Question two, when streamer fishing mountain streams for large bull trout and approaching a deep plunge pool from downstream or upstream, what's the best method to grab a massive bull trout's attention? Also, for casting and shooting [00:13:30.019] line, what's the best method for with a heavy cumbersome streamer? I feel like my casts are always sloppy and short and probably scare the fish in the pool before getting the chance of stripping an attractive cast back."
Okay. So, Adam, I'm going to answer your last question first, because if you go back a couple of weeks, I just did a podcast with Pete Kutzer all about casting bigger flies. And yeah, they're going to be sloppy and you want [00:14:00.000] to keep them short because that's a problem with big flies. So I suggest that you go back and listen to that podcast. Looks like you missed that one. And Pete has some really good tips on casting bigger flies.
Regarding bull trout, if you listen to the last question, you'll realize that I don't have any real experience targeting bull trout, so I'm going to have to pass on that one. However, I can comment on your tip and answer your question about [00:14:30.200] the Wooly Bugger. So, yeah, that's, I guess, a good idea. I wouldn't do it. There's a couple of reasons. One is that those pinch-on foam stripe indicators, they tend to come off. And they tend to come off a leader. They tend to...I'm sure they come off your flies. And I see these things floating in the river all the time. And the last thing I want to see is a bright orange piece of foam floating downstream. So I don't use them. I don't [00:15:00.100] like them. They're disposable. You can't reuse them. And I don't care for them.
There's a couple other things you can do to get you...to fish a couple of relatively large nymphs with a bigger dry. One is to just use a bigger hopper, one with a big fluffy white wing like a Chubby Chernobyl or something like that. And if you tie your own flies, you can get a bright fluorescent yarn and just tie a piece of that on top of your [00:15:30.299] hopper, and that'll be just as bright as those foam strike indicator tabs.
The other thing is if you need to fish fairly big nymphs, pick a couple that are a little bit lighter and use a little bit lighter tippet. The finer the tippet that you use, the better they're going to sink. In fact, you know, if I have a dry dropper rig and I don't think I'm getting the [00:16:00.179] nymph deep enough, often I'll just change the tippet, the dropper tippet, and use a finer tippet, fluorocarbon, and tend to get it down deeper. So you can use those stick-on-strike indicators if you want on your dry flies. I just hope you're not fishing upstream on me because I know I'm going to see some floating in the water next to me.
Regarding your first question about the Woolly Bugger, [00:16:30.639] you know, a Woolly Bugger can be fished any way you want. They work always and depends on the day and the fish and the water conditions. Even in turbid water, you might want to fish it very slowly. You might want to fish it really fast. You might want to fish it upstream. You might want to fish it downstream. You have to experiment with streamers.
But there's a couple of things to get that fly deeper. One, again, is a longer tippet. [00:17:01.139] You know, the fine stuff sinks better and maybe just you don't have to go lighter on your tippet in this case because you got a stream around. You don't want to go too light. But a longer tippet with a floating line will help it sink. You can certainly pinch a split shot right next to the head of the Woolly Bugger. There's no problem doing that. You know, it's no different than fishing a beadhead Woolly Bugger. So a split shot or two right at the head of the fly or, you know, 6 inches in [00:17:30.279] front. It'll work both ways. So you can fish split shot.
And also, you can buy Woolly Buggers with heads made out of tungsten cone or tungsten bead. That'll sink better if you don't want to mess with split shot. So there's lots of ways of getting them down. And yeah, you could use a sink-tip line too. But I think floating line, a little bit longer tippet, and a weighted fly, you'll be able to control it easier and probably work better, particularly in a small stream.
Lance: Hey, Tom. [00:18:00.160] This is Lance Jones from Southeast Kansas. I have a question about fly line selection. I know you don't get these very often. Basically, I was wondering if fly line selection, reasoning for selecting your fly, the particular fly line you select changes as you go up and down of the way to the fly rod. And also, I wonder if the [00:18:30.619] construction materials for the fly rod might go into your decision on what type of taper or if you might overline your rod. Just curious about if there's any knowledge out there about different tapers and overlining for fiberglass as compared to graphite. Thanks. Bye.
Tom: Well, Lance, yeah. I do use different types of fly line, fly line tapers [00:19:00.700] as I go up in line size. So if I'm fishing a two, three, four weight, sometimes even a five weight, I'll use a line with a longer front taper, something like a super fine line, or the Orvis Pro Trout Line, which has a little bit longer front taper. And then as you go bigger, generally heavier inline size, as you get into the six, seven, eight weights, you generally throw in a bigger, more air [00:19:30.099] resistant fly and you want that fly line more front weighted. So something like the power taper or even the bank shot line, which are very heavily front-loaded.
And then in salt water, I do prefer a heavier, more front-loaded line. But, you know, when you're buying a 9, 10, 11-weight, 12-weight fly line, generally the only ones you can get are going to be...are going to [00:20:00.019] have a heavier, steeper front taper to drive those bigger flies and particularly in the wind. So, yeah, I do change my fly line type as I go up and down in fly lines.
Regarding overlining a fiberglass rod, you can. You can try it. It depends on the model. In general, in my experience, you can overline a graphite rod easier than you can [00:20:31.559] a fiberglass rod. Their graphite rods are a little more forgiving for over-lining. They're a little stiffer down into the butt section and they can handle overlining. Fiberglass, it's really going to depend on the taper of the rod, too. So you didn't say which rod or which brand or anything. And if it's not an Orvis one, I wouldn't know anyways. But I would expect you could play around [00:21:00.160] with different fly lines and fly line sizes a lot more with a graphite than a fiberglass rod.
Here's an email from John. "The long story is I've developed some shoulder problems. So looking for ways to cast further with less stress on the old joint. I'm in North Carolina, so the trout rivers are small and very manageable. But in the summer, when waters get warm, I switch to smallmouth on a bigger river. Fly casting streamers, stripping them back in and getting them back across the river is a lot of casting and stress [00:21:30.160] on the arm. This summer, I even played with a spinning rod, but really didn't enjoy that as much.
I saw a video about trout spey that was intriguing, and I don't hear you talk about it much. I know it's primarily a large Western or European river techniques for salmon. But what about using it for smallies? Can you discuss the merit of this idea and suggested choice of gear? I'm really not catching big fish, so the idea would be a rod that casts a small streamer or a popper as easily as possible. I see the term switch [00:22:00.119] and spey rod being used and not sure I really understand the difference and what makes the most sense for this use case."
Well, John, that's a good idea. And, you know, trout spey is not just big in the western United States. It's used on a lot of Eastern rivers and even some relatively small rivers like the Batten Kill. We trout spey on that. So I think swinging flies for [00:22:30.000] smallmouth is a great idea. In fact, I've done it and I have some friends who do it, and it's really enjoyable. And as you said, you can get a longer cast out there easily with a with a bigger fly with a two-handed rod. You know, the difference between switch and spey is really kind of an old term that people don't use much anymore. We just call them all two-handed rods.
It used to be that, you know, slightly shorter, like an 11 [00:23:00.079] foot rod that you could either cast with an overhand cast with one hand or you could cast with two hands because it had a lower grip and it had that kind of action were popular. But now we just call them all two-handed rods. And, you know, they range in size from a 3-weight to, I guess, up to a 9 or even a 10-weight. In general, the size of a two-handed rod, in other [00:23:30.039] words, if it's a 3-weight line, it's really going to act more like a 5-weight. So I would say, you know, a 3, 4, or 6-weight for those smallmouth flies and 11-footer should be just fine, 11-foot, 3, 4, or 6-weight trout spey rod or just two-handed rod.
And then you probably want a Scandi line instead of a Skagit line. [00:24:00.049] Skagit lines are really designed for throwing sinking lines, heavy sinking lines a long way, and they're more used for winter steel head. So a little bit lighter, more delicate Scandi line on that, you know, 3, 4, or 6-weight two-handed rod should work really well for that smallmouth fishing. And I'm sure you're going to have a good time doing it and it'll save your shoulder.
[00:24:32.059] Here's an email from Jake. "I'm reaching out to you for some philosophical advice. I live in Nova Scotia where rivers were once renowned for their trout and Atlantic salmon. Sadly, these species have been largely displaced by invasive ones like smallmouth bass and chain pickerel or are facing stiff competition from predatory and, in my opinion, overprotected striped bass. While these species still provide a bountiful fishery, I find it hard [00:25:00.059] to enjoy targeting them and often travel far from home in pursuit of traditional salmonidae species.
Most recently, I had a trip where I landed nearly 50 striped bass in just a few hours up off my family's land in the Miramichi. It was certainly fun, but I would have gladly traded every one of them for even a chance at an Atlantic salmon. Is it wrong to struggle with appreciating a fishery that others would love to have access to? I'm torn between adapting to what is thriving in [00:25:30.039] front of me and holding on to a past I never had the opportunity to experience myself."
Well, Jake, I'm not much of a philosopher, so I'm not going to be really good at giving you philosophical advice. But I remember listening once to a podcast by, I think it was a psychologist or maybe a philosopher, who said that nostalgia is a poisonous emotion. And I think being [00:26:00.099] nostalgic for things that just aren't possible anymore is going to be dangerous. So if I were you, I would fish for what's available, and if you want to catch other species, you're going to have to travel more.
I mean, here down in the States, we used to have Atlantic salmon. There are some hopeful projects, [00:26:31.279] but they're protected. I don't even think we can legally fish for Atlantic salmon, at least sea-run Atlantic salmon. So, you know, the climate is changing. There's no doubt about that. And fish stocks are moving and changing. And striped bass are native to the Miramichi, but for some reason, whether it's changing ocean currents or changing [00:27:00.400] bait distribution, they are thriving in the Miramichi and they're great game fish. And are they preying on Atlantic salmon? Probably.
The Miramichi is, I believe, the most productive Atlantic salmon river in the world. So I think that there's a chance that the striped bass and the Atlantic salmon can coexist. Will it hurt the Atlantic salmon population? I expect it will because striped bass are pretty voracious [00:27:30.079] predators. But will it completely remove your Atlantic salmon? Only time will tell. But I would enjoy what you have and enjoy those striped bass. There are people that live in Massachusetts and New York and New Jersey, and Maine that would kill for the kind of striped bass fishing that you have up there. So I would enjoy it.
And don't forget that striped bass populations have always [00:28:00.480] been very cyclical. And they go through cycles of abundance and they almost disappear. I've seen it a couple of times in my lifetime down in the East Coast here. And those monstrous schools of striped bass are probably not going to last forever. So enjoy them while they're there. And they may get into serious decline, particularly if they eat all [00:28:30.019] the baitfish that they're following into the Miramichi estuary.
Here's an email from Melissa. "My husband and I live in fly fishing center Pennsylvania in the Harrisburg area. The temperatures are currently too hot for trout in most streams around here. However, after reading a magazine article about fly fishing for wild native fallfish, I became inspired to go chase them close to home. I have found they are extremely abundant and can approach 20 inches in length. They also take dry [00:29:00.240] flies, swung wets, nymphs, and streamers. I am having an absolute ball with them during terrestrial season and I was also surprised to read they favor eating larger prey items like crayfish and other fish once attaining a certain size, and that they often hunt nocturnally similar to brown trout.
Given the above mentioned desirable attributes, fallfish's ability to survive to 82 degrees, and proximity to Orvis customers in every major mid-Atlantic Northeast population center, why do we [00:29:30.119] not see more fly fishing industry promotion of this species as a game fish, like say carp, for example? Seems like a very overlooked fly rod species and a great opportunity to get more people connected with their local streams and into fly fishing. I would love to hear a podcast about targeting these abundant native fish and what kinds of gear and techniques others are using for them. Thanks for all you do, Tom."
Well, Melissa, I have a good friend and a guide friend named [00:30:00.240] Drew Price who lives in Northern Vermont and I fish with him quite a bit. And he loves fallfish as well. And so I don't know if I do a podcast on fallfish, I think the downloads would go down the tubes. However, you make a good point that a lot of people try to avoid fallfish, but they're pretty hard-fighting fish. They act like trout. Sometimes [00:30:30.299] they rise just like trout and they can fool you. And they're very eager to take a fly. I'm not so sure that we need to worry too much about technique on fallfish because they tend to be...seem to be so aggressive that they'll eat just about anything you put in front of them. I'm sure that at some point, they get a little bit selective. But yeah, I'll consider it and consider maybe asking Drew to come on and do a podcast on fallfish. So thank you for your email.
Kevin: [00:31:02.180] Hi, Tom, Kevin in Idaho. I've been listening to lots of fishing podcasts lately or trying to find fishing podcasts that I really like. And I want to let you know that I really like the Orvis podcast and your podcast methodology, I guess. You don't tend to have too many commercials or any commercials while other podcasts seem to have a lot of commercials and interrupt their guests a lot. But keep doing what you're [00:31:30.079] doing. I really love it.
And I heard on one podcast you mentioned your age and it got me thinking about how much I'd miss you on these podcasts and kind of wondering if you have any succession plans. I'm hoping that you do this for a long time more, but I know at some point you probably want to get out and fish more. Anyways, now to a few product questions and observations I kind of have. I recently went on a big trip up into [00:32:00.039] some alpine lakes and had a spool or tippet. I don't know if it was SA, maybe Orvis, but it had a little tippet cutter on the tippet rings or the spool. And I kind of wondered why that was really there since most people seem to carry nippers, why you would put that cutter on there as it seems to get in the way when you're pulling tippet out of the spool. Probably could save a penny or so per spool [00:32:30.089] by not putting that cutter on there, but seems to get in the way when I'm pulling tippet out.
One of the questions I had for you was as part of my alpine adventure and the need for some lightweight wet-wading sandals or shoes, I saw the Orvis Pro Approach shoe, but it's still a bit heavy for long backpacking trips. And kind of wondering what you'd use or recommend for those [00:33:00.019] type of shoes. You know, I'm kind of trying to find the balance between wade and function. You know, I want toe protection, but it seems like if you get that, then you start looking at 1.5 to 2 pounds for a pair of shoes. But wondering what you recommend or use.
And then as part of this trip in these high alpine lakes that we went to, we drove many, many hours to get to the trailhead, backpacked in many, many hours, and were well above 9,500 feet. [00:33:30.059] I've always kind of thought that high alpine lakes didn't have any big fish, but I'm here to tell you that that's not true. At least not in my case. I must have hooked 12 very big rainbows that were probably 22 to 28 inches.
The interesting thing is I only landed about four of them because they kept breaking me off and I didn't have anything other than 5X tippet. But I did hook one very [00:34:00.160] big fish on a giant chubby and it broke me off with two flies. And the interesting thing was about two hours later, this fish was flying out of the water, probably two or three feet in the air, shaking its head, trying to get rid of the flies. I could see the flies hanging out of his mouth, but he probably did this for, I don't know, half an hour, 45 minutes, probably jumped out of the water two to three feet, probably a dozen times. I'm assuming eventually he did shake [00:34:30.039] the hooks out because he stopped doing it.
But I'm here to tell you that in lakes above 9,500 feet, you can find some very big fish. I was very fortunate on this trip to catch a lot of my first-time species, including grayling, tiger, golden trout, and then a lot of cutthroat and spotted yellowstone trout or some other trout species. Anyways, hope you're doing well. Thanks. [00:35:00.380] Bye-bye.
Tom: Well, Kevin, yes. You know, I don't have any plans to retire. I do have some people in mind as a succession plan. There's plenty of people that can do what I do. But as far as stopping the podcast and fishing more, I fish an awful lot as it is. So I don't think I'd get any more fishing in if I didn't do the podcast. But [00:35:31.860] at some point, I'm going to become irrelevant and old and cranky. And I have some people in mind who I think do a great job on the podcast.
Why is there a cutter on tippet spools? Well, it's handy. You don't have to reach your snips way over to the tippet spool. I kind of like the feature, and I use it all the time. And you're right. It's not going to save that much money to remove [00:36:00.019] the cutter. And I know a lot of people who like the cutter. So, yeah, it's there, and I don't know if it's going to go away or not. It depends on people that are the merchants for tippet material.
I'm surprised you think the Pro Approach shoe seems heavy for hiking because it's a very lightweight shoe. I don't know if I would take a long hike in those. I mean, I'd hike a mile or two in those without any problem. [00:36:30.619] But with a neoprene sock, by the way, you want to have a half-millimeter neoprene sock in there. You're going to get blisters no matter what wading shoe you use. But if I were going to take a long hike, up to 9,500 feet like you do, then I would probably wear whatever light hikers I like to wear in the woods and then pack a pair of lightweight Approach shoes [00:37:03.119] because I don't think they're that heavy, pack them with me, and then use them for wading when I got there or in a float tube or whatever you're doing up there.
That's a great story about those fish above 9,500 feet. I expect that most or all of those fish were stocked because typically in a lake that high, there were never any [00:37:30.519] native trout in there. But it sounds like they either may have put some big ones in there or they have survived over the winter. Tough to tell, but that's a cool story about that fish still jumping and trying to shake the flies.
Well, my guest today is my old friend, [00:38:00.940] Lucas Bissett, who I have known since he started guiding for redfish in Louisiana many years ago. We've never fished together, but we've done podcasts, and we've chatted many, many times. And Lucas is now executive director of AFFTA. And those of you who may not know this, the fly fishing industry actually has a trade association. And Lucas, you want to tell people what [00:38:30.340] AFFTA does?
Lucas: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Tom, [crosstalk 00:38:34.478].
Tom: Well, that's the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Lucas about the AFFTA Fisheries Fund.
Lucas: Proud to call you a friend. But yeah, the American Fly Fishing Trade Association is just that. It is the single trade association of the fly fishing industry. And basically, we've tasked ourselves with trying to help sustainably grow the business of fly fishing. So when you look at fly fishing as [00:39:00.159] an industry, you have manufacturers, retailers, guides, associations, affiliate businesses, and all of those make up the industry. And so AFFTA is really attempting to make sure that those businesses are sustainable, that business practices are something that everyone has more access to resources. We also advocate on behalf of those industry businesses on Capitol Hill. We dabble in some conservation, which we'll [00:39:30.019] talk about today. And so really it's about representation of those who collectively are stronger than individual businesses. And so it's about working together as an industry.
Tom: And of course, one of the best things that a trade association can do is to make sure that there is a sustainable resource for people to go fishing for.
Lucas: It does help.
Tom: Yeah. And AFFTA has a fund now. You want to talk about [00:40:00.340] the fund that AFFTA manages?
Lucas: Yeah. So we also have a Fisheries Fund, the AFFTA Fisheries Fund. And that is dedicated to really handing out small grants to nonprofits that typically wouldn't have access to that kind of grant. So when you look at the way that kind of philanthropic work happens, typically it's larger grants that come from the government or maybe there's some funding that's happening from larger [00:40:30.199] foundations. And so really small grants in the 1,000 to $5,000 range don't happen as often with these smaller nonprofits, but it can make a huge difference in the work that happens locally or on the ground. And so the Fisheries Fund was designed to help those within the industry who had small grant opportunities that needed to go with restoration work or educator work. And so the Fisheries Fund was designed to try to help those businesses...I'm sorry, [00:41:00.059] those nonprofits within the fly fishing industry.
Tom: Great. And do you want to give some...? We're going to talk specifically about one aspect of this, but do you want to talk about in general, or what some of the projects are that AFFTA helps fund?
Lucas: Yeah. We've done things from Louisiana. I was actually an early recipient of a grant many years ago, and I do some restorative work here in Louisiana around black mangroves. We have high school kids [00:41:30.059] who are involved in planting and growing those mangroves. We've done work with Alvin Ditto down in Texas who has done some river cleanup there on the Colorado. We've funded work for TU up in Montana. We've done something with Cast Hope over in California, which is another kids' program that gets underserved communities out fishing for the first time, fly fishing specifically. We've really touched a lot of the different parts of the [00:42:00.039] country, and all of it has been amazing work that wouldn't have been potentially funded otherwise because a lot of these folks are looking for those smaller grant opportunities. We've done stuff from east to west and south to north.
Tom: That's so great. So what we want to talk about specifically, you and I discussed this before, is the overarching issue that all of us face in our everyday lives, and that's climate [00:42:30.840] change and how climate change is changing the migration patterns of ocean fish, saltwater fish that we all love to fish for. And what we can do about that, really we can't do anything about the climate changing. We can try and we're trying, and hopefully, we're going to make some progress. But it's here. It's happened.
And [00:43:00.340] I think I'm going to speak for you, but correct me if I'm wrong. AFFTA believes that the management of these ocean fish stocks is a little bit dated because a lot of these rules were put into effect prior to the ocean currents changing and the water temperatures changing. Is that correct?
Lucas: Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment, Tom. I mean, really what we're looking at is that fisheries management has largely been reactive. We wait until there's a problem, then we try to address it. Unfortunately, with the rapid changes that we're [00:43:30.119] seeing due to climate change, and it's affecting all of us equally. Unfortunately, we're not... No one is impervious to it. And so with those rapid changes, we feel like our fisheries managers have to adapt more quickly, which means they need to take a more proactive stance. We can't wait until there's a problem because there's too many problems [00:44:00.539] that are happening on a regular basis and too many things are changing in order to really look at this thing as a way to fix something that is broken. And we're trying to get them to more think about how can we keep it from breaking, especially with the environmental impact of climate that are happening on a regular basis.
Tom: So let's dig into, first of all, changes that we're seeing in ocean migration patterns and then what AFFTA is doing to try to convince fishery managers to [00:44:30.079] adjust to these changes.
Lucas: Yeah. So first off, I just want to say that for the first time ever, and this is sort of a win that I'd like to tout initially, for the first time ever, federal fisheries managers, like the National Marine Fisheries Service, which is managed by NOAA, the federal organization that looks at weather, looks at fisheries, they have actually incorporated climate into the way that they talk about fisheries. [00:45:00.380] So that in itself was a huge win, just right off the bat. Before now, we'd never seen our federal fisheries managers talking about climate change and incorporating it into how they talked about our fisheries. That's something I wanted to mention to start.
But when you look at the migration patterns that are changing daily now, it seems you're seeing fish that have historically been further south along, let's use the eastern seaboard as our [00:45:30.199] place of conversation. If you look at a fish species like tarpon, for instance, all the way down in Florida, they naturally moved, say, to like South Carolina for a little while. Now we're seeing them being found in Alloway, New Jersey, just as an example.
We also see migratory species like little tunny or false albacore. They're moving further north than they have earlier than they ever have. We're seeing other [00:46:00.360] highly migratory species move further north than they have. And what it's creating is that historically, a fishery may have been managed, let's say, in Virginia a certain way at a certain time of year. Well, now those fish are in New Jersey or further north in Maine. And so those fisheries managers there don't have the historical knowledge that they need in order to manage these fisheries in a way that's productive because they've never seen them before.
They're also potentially eating fish that they've [00:46:30.300] never eaten before. And so they're really disrupting the ecosystem in the short term because of their extremely new and more north sort of facing migration. So it's really kind of wreaking havoc on everybody because no one knows how to handle the changes that we're experiencing. The fish are doing what they're naturally going to do, which is to find a suitable environment. Unfortunately, our managers don't know how to adapt quick enough. And so that's where this proactive [00:47:00.219] idea really comes in.
Tom: And just a little aside. Tarpon have been spotted off Cape Cod. And I have a report of a tarpon actually caught off Cape Cod. And that is historically, you know, cold water. It's Atlantic Ocean, North Atlantic.
Lucas: Yeah, absolutely.
Tom: Things are changing for sure. And of course, the striped bass way up in the Miramichi system. [00:47:30.340] I think that striped bass have always been there, but the population up there has exploded.
Lucas: Yeah. And I mean, you're seeing lobster move from Maine into Canada. You're seeing, you know, the Gulf of Maine, you know, the sort of the northernmost point in this country on the eastern seaboard is experiencing heat that has never been seen. And it's rising in temperature faster than almost any other body of [00:48:00.079] water that's out there. So all of the fish that live in those areas are moving into Canada because they are looking for suitable water in order to live.
I mean, they can adapt. But, you know, at some point, again, our fishermen, our anglers, and our managers have to adapt accordingly as well. Otherwise, you'll see... You know, so let's use just a random example. So let's say striped bass are moving further north or moving in numbers [00:48:30.159] that are further north. Well, if there's a state that hasn't historically managed those fish, they may not even have a regulation on them. They may not even have a limit. So if an angler goes out and they start catching these fish and there's no limit on them because they've never seen them, that could be extremely detrimental to a migratory population that is being utilized or recreated all up and down the eastern seaboard. And so those are the kinds of, you know, kind of catastrophic opportunities that exist because of the exponential crises [00:49:00.719] that is climate change.
Tom: So why should we care about that? I mean, I wouldn't mind catching tarpon off Cape Cod. I wouldn't have to travel all the way south. I love tarpon fishing. You know, why should we care? We're increasing the number of species that we have off the northeast coast. So why should that bother me?
Lucas: Well, I mean, you know, in the short term, it may not. You [00:49:30.739] know, you're right. To a certain degree, obviously, there's opportunities that have never happened before. But the problem is that, you know, these ecosystems aren't adapting as fast. You know, this evolution or adaptation takes many, many years, typically. And so, you know, what it could be doing is, yes, you may be seeing these fish for the first time and you may have opportunities. But long term, what does that mean for the species as a whole?
You know, if you end up with tarpon in areas that never been and again, they're consuming fish [00:50:00.260] that they've never eaten, you know, how does that ecosystem end up adjusting over time? In the short term, it could potentially collapse. Obviously, that's a worst-case scenario. But if it did, then you wouldn't have, you know, all these other species that you've historically fished for. And so then you end up with a far worse situation than you initially had.
And it's a matter of also, you know, what happens to the species that you used to have that were in your area and that have now moved north [00:50:30.119] of you. And so everything's a trade-off. As these things end up adjusting naturally as they do, you end up potentially losing something that you had before. You may gain something else. But again, the ecosystem wasn't designed for it. I mean, if you look at a lot of these fish that live in the South, more historically, they're voracious eaters because they end up getting to eat year-round because of the temperature. Well, if they come into an ecosystem that works with a much slower growing fish because of temperature, they [00:51:00.119] could decimate the fishery, you know, pretty quickly when you look at, again, the whole ecosystem. And so that's why, you know, another thing that we'd like to talk about today is sort of looking at this as an ecosystem and not just as a species of fish.
Tom: Yeah. So what exactly is AFFTA doing to convince fishery managers to adjust their policies and the limits, and the regulations?
Lucas: Well, [00:51:30.260] one of the things that we're working on right now is really it started out with a report that we call a blueprint for anglers. It's called "For Tomorrow's Fish." It was a report that was written by an amazing angler named Daniel Ritz. He has worked in fisheries for quite some time. He's also an angler himself. He's from the East Coast originally, lives over in Idaho now.
And really, that's a call to arms for anglers who already are seeing these changes that we discussed. [00:52:00.219] You know, you as an angler, where you are, have seen changes. And so basically, what we've asked is to, with this blueprint of "For Tomorrow's Fish," for anglers to take the passion that we all have and the adaptive skills that we all naturally have as anglers and really focus those on imploring our managers to create those same adaptive practices in order to make sure that we're ready for all the things that are coming.
I mean, uncertainty is the worst possible thing [00:52:30.300] that you can inject into fisheries management. When you look at the way that managers work, uncertainty creates conservation in the sense that they ratchet down on opportunity when they get uncertain. And so really we want our fisheries managers to understand as quickly as possible how these changes are affecting all of these areas. And we want our anglers who naturally come with a passion for fishing, for being [00:53:00.099] out there in nature, and to really focus that energy on helping our managers to understand what's going on.
The other thing is that because we're out there, we're on the front lines, we're seeing these changes in real-time, we are in a way also citizen scientists. And that is also another important aspect of this, is that anglers are being asked by our fisheries managers that if you see something, talk about it. Talk about the changes that you're seeing. Keep people updated on those things. You know, managers can't be everywhere [00:53:30.099] all the time. And so this report, as it started, was a way to help people understand what those opportunities look like and try to address some of those through this report. And then that's led into a larger campaign that we can discuss today.
Tom: Now, do these fisheries managers actually listen to just, you know, Joe Sportsman or Joe Sportswoman or, you know, the general public? Can we have any effect on [00:54:00.719] their policies? And how?
Lucas: Well, Tom, the kind of cool thing about our federal fisheries specifically is that as someone who has been a part of that through the public lens for many years, talking about myself, our federal fisheries practices, as far as management goes, is one of the most transparent operations that we're part of. There's public comment all along the way. Every time that they make [00:54:30.179] any decisions, they're announced beforehand so that people can go watch that process unfold.
If you look again as our federal fisheries management, we have these councils that are made up of anglers and commercial fishermen and others who actually are the ones making recommendations back to the fisheries managers who ultimately make the decisions. You also have what they call APs or advisory panels that are made up of anglers, again, who will [00:55:00.039] make recommendations based on very specific fisheries, very specific places. They have a very specific set of skills. And so in all of today's turmoil and chaos that is the federal government, our federal fisheries management system is one of the few that is extremely transparent in the way that they constantly ask for public input. And I have seen them listen to anglers and try to do what is best for anglers. So it is one of the few that we get [00:55:30.219] what I think is kind of a fair shape when it comes to how they listen to us.
Tom: So as just an angler here, I'm in New England, but wherever they are, how do we get access to that information? How do we make our comments known to these managers? What steps do we take...should we take?
Lucas: Well, there's a couple of different opportunities. It [00:56:00.480] goes, like I said, all the way up to I sat on calls. And these are open to the public. There's announcements about them. So what you can do is you can go to noaa.gov. So N-O-A-A.gov. And there, you can sign up for like lists where you would be informed of upcoming public comment. Let's say you're specifically interested in the Northeast. Well, you can kind of drill down on the website. You can find where the council is meeting, when they're meeting. [00:56:30.340] You can see when those APs are being populated. And so you can try to be a part of those. You have opportunity for public comment at those council meetings. There's always public comment being had.
In fact, there's a roadmap, they call it that, NOAA is working on right now. There's public comment that's open for that, and it's talking about this ecosystem-based fisheries management. So instead of looking at one specific species, say like a red snapper or a cobia or a highly migratory species [00:57:00.199] like bluefin tuna, this would be looking at the ecosystem as a whole. So all the way from the bottom up, you know, looking at everything from the fish that fish eat to the most aggressive predator, you know, sharks, or even bluefin tuna.
And so there's constantly opportunities for public comment to have your voice heard. And like most things, you know, people don't participate as much as they could. And so your voice actually means quite a bit because there just aren't as many people who [00:57:30.119] are providing that public comment. So if they hear you and a couple of folks who have some good ideas about trying to be science-driven and really understand the importance of addressing climate, there's a great opportunity for you to make a real difference. And that's what we're trying to do, is empower anglers through these tools in order to help them make a difference.
Tom: And people can find information on this, I assume, on your website.
Lucas: Yep. So we have a couple of different [00:58:00.159] places. We actually have a website dedicated to this as well. It's called Tomorrow's Fish. And it's basically this larger campaign that For Tomorrow's Fish is a part of. And this campaign is all about empowering anglers to make a difference, to, you know, those who those of us who have seen the changes that are taking place on the water, those of us who are watching these fires burn in the West, who are watching these temperatures change in the oceans, who are watching the hurricanes that come more readily and [00:58:30.159] more severe, it's an opportunity for you to find the resources you need to be educated in order to come up with, you know, the public comment that makes sense for you. It gives you opportunities to engage.
Daniel, who wrote the original report, is also now helping AFFTA to coordinate these efforts. And so we have someone on staff who is out there looking for these opportunities. Those will be populated on the Tomorrow's Fish website. They'll be coming [00:59:00.260] through AFFTA through either monthly updates that I do or newsletters that we send out. We're really trying to build a list of folks who want to be engaged who are looking for these opportunities.
And AFFTA wants to try and spearhead that because, like you said before, if our fisheries are our offices, you know, which they are, then we need to make sure that those offices are taken care of. Otherwise, we don't have an industry. I mean, that's paramount. So, you [00:59:30.380] know, for us as the trade association, we're in a unique position that, you know, if you were part of a different association, well, you may worry about roads or you may worry about other opportunities in order to make your business better. Well, for us, that's the natural environment. And so this is extremely important for us to focus on. And, you know, we're trying to make it an even split between trade and other things that are important as well. But we can't try and surgically separate our fisheries, our natural resources [01:00:00.300] from our businesses because we utilize them equally. And so AFFTA is really trying to do its part to keep people informed and give them an opportunity to be engaged.
Tom: And we should state that this...we've been talking about ocean fishes and saltwater currents and temperatures, and so on. But this fund covers freshwater as well, right?
Lucas: Absolutely.
Tom: So we wanted to kind of dig into the ocean fishes. But, you know, for people [01:00:30.219] who don't saltwater fish or don't care about saltwater fishing, this is also obviously affecting trout fishing and bass fishing and everything else in freshwater inland resources. And there's similar concerns there. And AFFTA is trying to help address these as well.
Lucas: Yeah, absolutely. And it is all interconnected, even if you don't think of it from like a climate [01:01:00.139] perspective, which you should. But the oceans feed the rivers and vice versa. We have anadromous species like steelhead and salmon that use both the ocean and freshwater. And so that's obviously a natural connection between those fisheries. But like you said, we have hoot-owl restrictions that are happening earlier than ever. And for those who don't know what a hoot-owl restriction is, it's where they close down a river at a certain time of day because it's just too hot to safely fish for trout.
And so, you [01:01:30.420] know, as we see those things happening in new places and newer times and earlier than ever, and runoff is happening earlier or later than it should be and you have all of these changes that are happening interior of the country, like rivers and streams and ponds and lakes, it's all being affected. And so, yeah, we focus on all of it. One of the main reasons that we started with federal fisheries is because they have the biggest lever that we can pull. The federal government, [01:02:00.460] for better or worse, has more appropriated money that they can work with. They have more resources than typically you'd have on a state level. And so we feel like if we can get a blueprint set within the federal system in order to show them like, "Hey, anglers believe this, they need this to work, this is what's going on," then it's something that we might be able to replicate in other fisheries.
And so really the federal government, because it's the one that is starting to address these things, especially in today's [01:02:30.440] environment, we realize that, "Hey, if we can get a win here, then we can potentially replicate that in other places." And there are obviously other nonprofits who are working on these things on the ground in all of these states. But here's an opportunity for AFFTA to really kind of spearhead this larger federal system that not many people are paying the same attention to. And then the goal would be to try to unify and unite all of these smaller nonprofits throughout the country in order to try and really work on this as [01:03:00.219] a whole in order to try and make true systemic change throughout all of our fisheries, but potentially using the federal government or the federal system as a blueprint.
Tom: Yeah. A lot of people don't like the federal government interfering in states' policies and management. But you make a great point that this is an ecosystem problem. It's not just North Carolina or Virginia or Maine or Massachusetts problem, particularly in the oceans. [01:03:30.340] It's ecosystem based and there has to be some kind of coordination in those regulations to make a difference.
Lucas: And a lot of that coordination already exists. I mean, especially when you look at federal monies, a lot of these state managers are actually relying on federal dollars in order to boost their opportunity to manage. So, you know, a lot of those coordinated efforts kind of exist. But, you [01:04:00.000] know, you're right. It would be remiss if we tried to tackle this a state at a time, which, you know, eventually we may have to. But for now, when looking at sort of the biggest piece of the pie to prove the biggest opportunity, you know, the federal system is one that, again, one lever pulls one heck of a change. And so then if we can replicate that in other places on a smaller scale, then it's not necessarily about the federal government interfering as much as it is the federal government showing [01:04:30.500] us the way, you know, the opportunity. So, yeah, that's the way we see it for now.
Tom: And let's kind of circle back to a body of water that you're intimately familiar with, the Gulf of Mexico. You know, you've worked on the water there. You've been a guide. You're a conservationist. You worked on the Black Mangrove project, actually spearheaded the Black Mangrove project. What changes are you seeing in [01:05:00.599] the Gulf, and what kind of things do we need to do in that body of water?
Lucas: Yeah. Unfortunately, the Gulf of Mexico is another one of those kind of ground zero fisheries that is experiencing lots of different things. You know, earlier I mentioned hurricanes, you know, the Gulf and the lower eastern seaboard are obviously magnets, unfortunately, for hurricanes. And as we see these temperatures rise in these areas [01:05:30.179] and the water, it just fuels more strong, more frequent, and more devastating hurricanes. You know, Louisiana specifically, since this is where I live and this is the backyard that I know, we continually are losing land. We're continually losing marsh area at a rapid rate, which has a number of ill effects.
One is going to be the fact that as those stronger hurricanes come, you have less of a buffer between people and the severity of those storms, the [01:06:00.119] storm surge, you know, the water that gets pushed up into the areas. You also have, you know, carbon that was being held within those marshes, you know, that was helping to reduce the effects of climate change. That's being re-released into the atmosphere, which is causing an issue. And then you obviously don't have the carbon, what they call, sequestration that happens within those mangroves, within the grasses that grow within those marshes. And so it's a double-whammy really, when you look at it.
And other places are experiencing something very [01:06:30.059] similar. You also have sea level rise that's taking place. Unfortunately, we have a pretty large dead zone that comes down the Mississippi River from a lot of the agricultural practices that happen to the north. That's being exacerbated by climate. So the water gets warmer, those dead zones grow. They create more hypoxic or low-oxygen areas, which again, affects forage fish first and then affects the larger predatory fish.
We also have some, you know, sort of what [01:07:00.059] they call extractive fisheries here in the Gulf of Mexico through the menhaden fishery, which is another baitfish fishery. You know, as we see those practices continue year after year, they're taking a good portion of the menhaden from the water. And while they're doing that, there's also some bycatch. They also kill quite a few redfish at times because of, again, the hypoxic or low oxygen areas that are created from netting these fish.
So, you know, there's quite [01:07:30.019] a few different things that are happening, especially in the Gulf of Mexico. But unfortunately, it's not a unique story. It's happening around the country. I don't want this to be all doom and gloom. So I do want to say that the beauty of the fisheries is that our fish do find a way. And that's kind of the great part of nature, is that it does adapt. It does overcome. But this is why we need to implore that our managers do the same, because [01:08:00.099] the fishery is going to. It's whether or not we're ready for it, it's whether or not we understand it, and it's whether or not that we adapt as well. That's the bigger question.
Tom: What are you seeing in the sport fishery? What changes are you seeing in the redfish and sea trout populations?
Lucas: Well, we've had regulation changes here in Louisiana for the first time in over 30 years because of some pretty low numbers [01:08:30.279] in populations of redfish and sea trout. You know, we lowered our redfish regulations for the first time. We're seeing that those younger fish are not coming back as quickly as they should be. The breeding population in the Gulf of Mexico is smaller than it should be. The speckled sea trout or the spotted sea trout populations are what they call truncated, which means that there is a ton of young fish, but there's not that sort of middle-aged [01:09:00.000] fish. The 3, 4, 5-year-old fish, the ones that are really good breeders, those are not in the fishery as much as they should be.
And so we're seeing the need to actually cut back on some of the opportunities for anglers when it comes to the number of fish that they can catch. We've also shut down, for the first time, the opportunity for anyone to keep a fish over 27 inches when we talk about redfish. So that's a first where we actually don't have [01:09:30.159] any big fish that you can keep. It used to be you could have one a day. So there's some pretty dramatic things that are happening within our fisheries and they're happening in relatively short order. And that's very concerning. And so our fisheries managers are...again, it's reactionary, which is kind of the way that it works. But we are seeing regulation changes for the first time in over three decades.
Tom: And those regulation changes came from anglers?
Lucas: They did.
Tom: The input [01:10:00.119] came from anglers?
Lucas: Yeah. The American Saltwater Guides Association, which is over on the East Coast up in Maryland, they were one of the major spearheaders of that redfish regulation change here in Louisiana. And it was led mainly by Louisiana guides who were seeing the changes on the water in real-time and they started to sound the alarm. And luckily, the fisheries managers, it took a while, but they [01:10:30.699] did listen and have started to make changes.
Tom: Now, how do the commercial fishermen weigh in on this? There must have been some controversy about not allowing redfish over 27 inches to be caught. What happened there?
Lucas: Well, actually, Louisiana is kind of unique. We don't have a commercial fishery for redfish. So there is no legal commercial fishing. [01:11:00.439] I shouldn't say that. There's an extremely small amount of people in the state who were grandfathered in from the '90s when the regulations changed that made redfish a game fish, which means they weren't allowed to be commercially harvested in the state.
Tom: So there's no commercial harvest of redfish?
Lucas: No, no. Not on any... In fact, there may be zero. There is still a little bit of speckled trout that can be commercially harvested, about a million pounds [01:11:30.159] a year, but they never catch anywhere close to that. Most of our redfish that are served in restaurants here in Louisiana actually come from farmed redfish in Texas.
Tom: So these regulation changes were really all related to sportsman input, angler input?
Lucas: Yep. Yeah. It was solely angler input. And then obviously science, which showed a decline over time, showed the trend lines were going down. [01:12:00.119] And so, yeah, between the scientists saying, "Hey, here's what we're finding with our stock assessments," between the anglers saying, "Hey, here's what we're seeing in real-time on the water." You saw those entities come together and actually try and make a difference.
Tom: Well, it's great to see government working properly.
Lucas: It sometimes can be slow.
Tom: Well, of course.
Lucas: Sometimes can be frustrating. [01:12:30.500] And again, this is why those relationships with your elected officials, with those who are making the decisions, if you can create that trusted relationship, and again, this is something that we're advising and trying to help people with AFFTA and with our For Tomorrow's Fish campaign, is if you have those relationships, if you created that trust, then you end up with people that are listening to you.
You know, if you don't go in there and yell and [01:13:00.199] scream and try and tell them how bad they are at their job, but you actually try to create a lasting relationship, you'll find that they're looking for your input. You know, people want to know what's going on because they're not out there all the time. And obviously, it's anecdotal in the sense that it's your observation. But if enough people are having the same observation, they can take that and at least dig further and look deeper and let science lead them in the right direction. So yeah, it can work, and it does work. It's just a matter [01:13:30.000] of developing the right relationships and talking as much as you can in a productive way.
Tom: Well, that is encouraging. I don't know, I'm at a loss for words because, you know, the climate issue is just so insidious and affects everything. And all [01:14:00.060] we can do right now, in the immediate future, is to learn how to adapt to it until we can learn how to control it.
Lucas: Right. Yeah. I mean, that is definitely where we find ourselves. Adaptation is the first strategy. You know, mitigation, where we actually change some of what we're doing as a whole will be later. But yes, anglers, like I said, we're good at adaptation. That's what we're good at. I mean, if you're standing in a river or standing on a boat, you know that if something's not [01:14:30.000] working, you're going to try to make changes to try to make the day work. And so that adaptation is really what we need. Because we need to think differently, we need to think proactively, and we need to insist that our managers do.
Tom: And fish populations are resilient as well if we give them a chance, if we give them a little help.
Lucas: Absolutely. Here's the beauty of it, is that nature finds a way to survive. Like that's what it is designed to do. It has two purposes, survive and reproduce. And as long [01:15:00.100] as you give them that opportunity, they will survive and reproduce. And so yeah, it's just a matter of, you know, unfortunately, sometimes it's us who has to make those severe changes and in the way that we harvest or the way that we, you know, participate in the fishery. But give them enough time. And some of them, it doesn't take very long, depending on how fast they grow. They will come back.
Tom: Yep. All right, Lucas. Well, that was a great overview on that program. Again, if you're [01:15:30.420] interested in this, you can get more information from the AFFTA website. You want to give people the website address again?
Lucas: Yeah, it's affta.org. And also we have the AFFTA Fisheries Fund, which, like you said, is the small grants program that's listed right there on the AFFTA website. And then we have the tomorrowsfish.org as another website that houses all of the resources and different things that we [01:16:00.060] talked about today, including that report, including a report we did some years back that talks about, you know, kind of our focal points and how we'd like to see our managers try and manage for the future of our fishers.
Tom: Yep. And even if you aren't in the fly fishing industry, you can still go to the website and read this stuff and make a difference.
Lucas: Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, this affects all anglers. It's not just fly fishing. [01:16:30.359] It's not just conventional tackle. We are truly all in the same water here and we're all being affected in the same way. And, you know, I think that if there was ever anything that we should unite over as an industry and as anglers as a whole, this is a perfect opportunity for us to realize that the harder we work together, the faster this thing, you know, becomes hopefully, a problem of the past.
Tom: Yeah. Well, thank you, Lucas, for taking the time today. I know you're a [01:17:00.311] busy man, and appreciate you taking the time to explain this to us and give us some hope for the future.
Lucas: Absolutely. I really appreciate you giving us the opportunity to talk about it. And it's always a pleasure.
Tom: All right. Well, I think that, I think that the podcast listeners are always eager for knowledge. And, you know, knowledge is power in these areas. And the more we know about these issues, the more we can influence them.
Lucas: [01:17:30.000] Totally agree.
Tom: Thanks, Lucas.
Lucas: Thanks, Tom.
Tom: All right. Talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or comment? Send it to us at