How Agriculture and Trout Unlimited Work Together, with Cameron Aker
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast. This is your host Tom Rosenbauer, and I guess this week is Cam Aker from Trout Unlimited. Cam works in the Driftless region of Iowa, but the Driftless region encompasses Iowa, and Wisconsin, and Minnesota, [00:00:30.539] and a little bit of Illinois. Of course, this is very much an agricultural area, but it also has a lot of spring creeks, a lot of spring-fed trout streams. Cam is going to talk about how they have worked with farmers and other landowners to help enhance these streams to bring them back more into their natural state, keep water temperatures down, keep siltation down. [00:01:00.159] It's a great story of how agriculture and conservation organizations and government agencies can work together to ensure that all of us have cold, clean water, including trout. I hope you enjoy it. I know I did, and I know I learned a lot on the podcast.
A few announcements before we start the Fly Box and the podcast interview. First of [00:01:30.019] all, the Superfine rods hit the Orvis website, and Orvis dealers, and Orvis stores this week or last week actually as you're listening to this. This is something I've really been excited to tell you about. I've had to keep it quiet for, God, nine months or so since I've been using these rods because I'm personally really excited about them. These are [00:02:00.299] by far the best Superfine rods that Orvis has ever produced by a wide margin. Let me tell you why. Superfine rods have been around for a while, and they've always been the mainly shorter, slower rods that are designed for either small stream work, or for spring creeks, or for head-hunting fish with dry flies and small nymphs in tailwaters [00:02:30.099] and spring creeks. They've always been a slow action. They bend more into the middle and the butt of the rod when you're casting and when you're playing a fish. You feel the cast more, and they protect fine tippets more. Even with a small trout, they just feel like you're playing a bigger fish, although they do protect a fine tippet, and [00:03:00.080] you can land a large fish with these rods. There are a lot of foam with smaller fish.
But a slow rod used to mean kind of a wobbly rod because they were made with a lower modulus graphite. It bends more, but it also didn't have the recovery rate of a stiffer rod. The new Superfine rods, they have that same beautiful [00:03:30.159] slow action, although it's not the same action as in the older Superfine rods. It's a different action. It's still a slow action, but it bends more toward the tip and it's more progressive toward the butt, and they have a much better recovery rate. Just because you have a slow rod doesn't mean you can't have a rod that isn't accurate and doesn't recover quickly. They're just what I've always hoped to find in a Superfine [00:04:00.479] rod. These are not retro rods. These are not your grandfather's Superfine rods. They're a whole new rod, new taper, new materials. They hearken back to the old days because we've given them names like the Ultrafine and the Tippet and names we used to call our Superfine rods, but these are not the same as the old Superfine rods, believe me. They're a whole new series. Check them out. [00:04:30.500] Go to your local Orvis dealer or your local Orvis store and cast one and see how much fun these rods are.
All right. And before we get into the Fly Box, I wanted to give you some ideas for places to plan a trip for this year. This week, I'm going to talk about three expeditions. Orvis-endorsed expeditions are operations where getting there is just as exciting and just as much fun as [00:05:00.540] when you finally get there and start fishing. I'm going to tell you about three of them. The first one is Mongolia River Outfitters. This is where you go to possibly catch a giant taimen that's 60 inches long, but there are other native salmonids that are easier to catch and more abundant in these waters. The weather is similar to Montana in the summertime. [00:05:30.500] It's spectacular scenery, not that I've ever been there. I'm just telling you from pictures and videos that I've seen, but this is a spectacular, open, remote country. It's an exotic trip. It's a long way to get there, but everybody that's ever been there has just been thrilled with the experience.
Rather than me talking more about it, let me read you a testimonial or [00:06:00.871] a review from one of our customers that's taken this trip. "This was an incredible trip. I can quite easily say that Mongolia is the most beautiful place I've ever fished. The drive to the first camp was extraordinary and it kept getting better from there on. Every camp is set up in an absolutely stunning location. I guarantee the views during a trip down the river will blow you away. And then there's the fishing. The taimen are the prize and are hard work, making catching them all [00:06:30.019] the more rewarding. But as soon as your arm gets tired on the heavy taimen gear, you can switch to trout and grayling. There is no shortage of fish in the river, and you're bound to have an excellent time. Our guides were all highly skilled and incredibly knowledgeable, which made the days an absolute joy. And the camp staff were all incredibly helpful and kind. The accommodation was fantastic, and we really felt we had true Mongolian ger experience. The meals were all delicious and very impressive, especially considering how remote [00:07:00.160] and isolated we were. I cannot recommend this adventure highly enough. If it's not on your bucket list, add it." Well, that's quite a testimonial.
And then another trip where you don't have to travel quite as far, but it's pretty remote, is Solitude River Trips. These are in the United States. It's the middle fork of the Salmon River in the Frank Church Wilderness. And there's no roads in here. There's very limited trail access, and there's 106 miles [00:07:30.439] of the most rugged, inaccessible, and primitive country in the lower 48 states. It's a great family experience and a real adventure. It's predominantly native cutthroat trout and it's superb dry fly fishing because cutthroats are so surface-oriented. So, let me just read you a customer report on Solitude River Trips. "If you want to have the most amazing week of your life, you should book [00:08:00.000] with Solitude. Definitely, not maybe. The guides were amazing, skilled, informative, and so great with our kids. The food was incredible and the desserts were even better. My family can't wait to go back again. The scenery is like nothing you've ever seen before. Don't miss out on this trip."
And then the third suggestion for an expedition for you to try is Spotted Bear Ranch in Montana. This is a horseback and mule trip into the Bob Marshall Wilderness [00:08:30.720] area. You know, you've probably heard of the Bob Marshall Wilderness area. It's very, very famous. It's the South Fork of the Flathead River, and they are fishing for wild and willing native westslope cutthroat trout. And these again, like most cutthroats, are very surface-oriented. So, if you love dry fly fishing in a wilderness setting, this is a trip for you. It's a camping trip, but it's luxury camping, just like the other two [00:09:00.240] expeditions that I mentioned. And let me just read you someone's experience from this expedition. "Four dads and daughters celebrated the 20th anniversary of a trip to the Bob Marshall Wilderness when the girls were all 19 years old. We chose Spotted Bear Ranch and couldn't have been more pleased. From beginning to end, the experience was top-notch. The staff was positive, fun, and accommodating. The lodging, food, and fishing were outstanding. [00:09:30.019] It was a great place to celebrate this special occasion."
So, anyway, there's three expeditions for you to look at. And, you know, if you're looking for a real adventure this summer by yourself or with your family, I would urge you to check those places out. Orvis has well over 200 endorsed expeditions, lodges, outfitters, and guides, and we check these places out. We want to make sure that you, our customers, [00:10:00.399] are going to have a great vacation. Your vacation time is precious to you, and we want you to have the very best time. So, you can go to the Orvis Adventures page, orvis.com/adventures, and check out the map there. It's an interactive map so that you can go and look at various parts of the country and see what kind of Orvis-endorsed operations are there.
Now, let's do [00:10:30.080] the Fly Box. So, the Fly Box is where you ask me questions or you pass along a great tip, and I read them on the air. I try to answer your questions. Or if I think your tip is worthwhile, I will share it with the other listeners. If you have a question or a tip that you want to pass along, send it to me at
Well, Jacob, they're kind of interchangeable, although when you're applying head cement, it tends [00:11:30.460] to seep into the thread more and into the materials and locks them better to the hook shank. The UV resin is a good coating and it's very hard and strong, but it doesn't always get down into the material. So, if you're trying to add a hard shell, or a hard body, or a hard wing case, a durable wing case to a fly, the UV resin is good. Personally, [00:12:00.559] I prefer head cement for just finishing off the heads of flies. You could use a thin UV resin to finish off the heads, and a lot of people do, but I think the head cement is actually a little bit more durable than UV resin for normal operations. So, I hope that helps. But you can really use them interchangeably.
Here's another email from Tom. "Hi, Tom. I very much appreciate what [00:12:30.019] you do in sharing your tips education and passion for fly fishing. I live in Colorado and very new to fly fishing and mostly self-taught, relying mostly on your videos and podcasts to help. I understand the type of flies matter. But because I am new, I'm trying to keep it less overwhelming and focus on just a few flies to start. This way, I can focus more on casting, reading water, etc. Hopefully, over time, my fly knowledge will expand and my fly collection will grow. That's the plan anyway. My [00:13:00.200] question is kind of in two parts. One, do you think this is a good strategy to start with? And two, my plan is to use only a couple nymphs for below-surface fishing and a few dry flies for above-surface fishing. I don't really want to deal with streamers and wet flies. For some reason, they intimidate me at this point in the journey." Well, Tom, I think that's a terrific way to start up because flies can be confusing. There's a lot of them out there. And it's really neat to have such an [00:13:30.220] incredible variety and such innovative flies.
When you go into a fly shop, it's amazing all the different patterns. When I go in, because I tie my flies, I want to tie all those patterns, and I just can't. But when you're starting out, it is intimidating. I think that's a great idea to start with just some basic flies. Don't agonize over the fly selection. Concentrate on your casting and reading the water. Those kind of skills are [00:14:00.379] going to be so valuable. The only thing I suggest is you want to have both your nymphs and your dry flies in various sizes because size in dry flies is often the most important thing. The weight of your nymph, not necessarily the size so much as the weight of the nymph, is also important. I would have those dry flies in size maybe 12 through, on Colorado, 22, [00:14:30.220] 24, and then your nymphs in maybe size 14 through 24. You're going to need some small nymphs in Colorado. But keep your patterns limited. I think it's going to work out fine for you and don't worry about it. Your fly selection will grow as you spend more and more time fly fishing.
Ben: Hey, Tom. This is Ben in Oregon. I've got a little problem. I'm just not comfortable at my fly-tying desk. Something off between my [00:15:00.179] chair and the desk height and the whole setup. I like my vise, but I'm going to kind of blow the whole thing up and just make some changes and see if I can't get myself in a more comfortable position for hours worth of fly tying. I just thought this was an interesting topic. I was interested in your opinion on tips, tricks, stuff you've got to have at the desk itself, not necessarily equipment or [00:15:30.620] fly-tying tips. Another issue that I would ask your opinion on is, like, a travel kit. I've tried to tie at the picnic table at the campground on the river. I love the idea. But every time I try, I just don't have what I need. Without bringing my whole setup and every piece of feather I've got, [00:16:00.299] any tips for a travel rig? Thanks so much, Tom.
Tom: Ben, regarding being comfortable at the fly-tying desk, just keep listening because I'm going to play a voice file tip from another listener who's got great suggestions. I can answer your other questions. Other than good light and good vision aids, which are super important in a fly-tying bench, in fact, I like to have two lights [00:16:30.139] so I can get light from different directions and I don't have shadows. Good vision aids, whether it's a magnifying glass or whether you wear some really close-up readers, I recommend 3X or even 4X readers for people because it's going to really help. Here are kind of the things that I keep on my bench. I keep a razor knife for cutting foam, and I use it to scrape the head cement off my [00:17:00.623] bodkin or dubbing needle. I always have that around. Paper towel and acetone just for cleaning up epoxy or head cement that spills. And paper towel I use also to dab up super glue when it goes wild.
I like a pair of wide pliers because I use them to open up bottles of head cement and stuff that maybe have dried a little bit and I can't open them with [00:17:30.119] my bare hands. Pliers are always helpful. Wire cutters because sometimes you need to cut wire, and you don't want to use your scissors for that. Then I have a couple screwdrivers usually for working on vices when they need to be tightened, and also a set of hex keys because a lot of the fly-tying vices are put together with hex keys and you may need to tighten something. So, those are some of the things [00:18:00.079] I find useful at my fly-tying bench. And regarding a travel kit, figure out what flies you think you're going to need and then just take the materials for those. Get yourself a pedestal travel vice. You may want to travel with a portable light because hotel rooms, typically, and cabins, and things like that, typically, don't have very good light for fly tying.
But, yeah, I'll tell you what I carry is I carry a bunch of nymph hooks and a bunch of dry fly [00:18:30.180] hooks in all the sizes. I have them in a hook compartment box. And then the essentials that I have are a blue dun, a brown or grizzly, and a light ginger hackle cape, deer hair always, deer hair for tying either comparaduns or X-caddis, zelon or antron for shucks, a box of dubbing that has various colors in it, [00:19:00.259] and a few beads and maybe some wire. And if I have that stuff, I can pretty much imitate any bug that I might see on the water. And that's usually what I'd need to tie. You know, I need a size 18 rusty spinner. I don't have any. So, I've got the dubbing, I've got the hackle or the antron to make the wings, and I got the dry fly hooks. So, that's what I take. And then you know what else I do, is I [00:19:30.039] just throw in a couple materials that maybe I've never used before or I hardly ever use thinking that maybe I'll come up with some wild creation while I'm out there. So, just to be a little creative, just throw in a few extra things that you never use and try them out. But, you know, having the stuff to imitate nearly any mayfly or caddis fly or stone fly is going to be essential because that's generally what you're going to need.
[00:20:00.400] Here's an email from Ryan. "I was recently gifted a 7-piece, 9-foot 5-weight graphite rod non-Orvis brand. When assembling this rod, I found it exceptionally difficult to get the pieces completely together. I found that about a 1/4-inch of the ferrule was still exposed at each ferrule when I had the pieces set as tight as I could comfortably get them. Any tighter and I would be afraid that I couldn't get them apart again. How important is it to have these ferrules fully seated? Is a tiny gap okay? Also, [00:20:30.200] do you have any recommendations for putting a rod with tight ferrules together to avoid getting stuck without a permanent one-piece rod? I appreciate taking the time to read my question, and thank you and Orvis for everything that you all do." Well, Ryan, it's possible that you grew up with bamboo maybe, and with a metal ferrule, you want to seat those all the way in until you can't see any daylight between the two ferrules. And that's the proper way to seat a metal ferrule. Otherwise, [00:21:00.180] you're going to run into problems.
With a graphite rod, however, you always want to see a gap there because those ferrules do wear a little bit over time and there is some extra built into those ferrules so that as they wear over time, you still have something to grip. So, you don't want those ferrules to seat all the way together on a graphite rod ever. [00:21:30.577] So, what you've got is perfectly fine. You just want to offset your ferrule by just a little tiny bit maybe 10 degrees or so and then twist them together. That's the way the rod shop tells us to do it. Actually, I just line up the ferrule dots and shove them together. And you want them to be hand-tight. You want to put a little force on there, but you don't want to put a lot of force, [00:22:00.160] and just enough to seat it firmly is going to be enough. So, those gaps are fine. They should be there. Don't worry about it at all. Don't try to seat them all the way.
Here's an email from Chris from Buffalo, New York. "Your podcast has had a big influence on me, and my uptake on this hobby has helped get me more involved in the outdoors again. Thank you and Orvis so much. A few questions. I bought a 10-foot 3-weight Clearwater combo in the spring to give Euro nymphing [00:22:30.240] a shot. I've been experimenting with the mono rig and long leaders that result in my fly line never leaving the reel. One, does this outfit become significantly more universal if I took the tactical nymphing line off, added a floating line, than if I saw a hatch or got to a good dry fly drop situation, just simply take the mono rig off and throw a nylon tapered leader on it, or should I learn to do these with a mono rig? B, is it a good idea to tie a sacrificial mono loop at [00:23:00.400] the end of the dry fly line to avoid tearing up my loop? Two, I was planning on getting a 9-foot 5-weight to pair with my 10-foot 3-weight in the spring. I'm trying to avoid pigeonholing myself as a wannabe Euro nympher. Are there any other Orvis reels that might be considered vintage now that you still might use or recommend? The aesthetics on some of the old Orvis reels are incredible. Number three, what size dry flies do you tie in the east for dry dropper? Some of what I see people use in videos seem to [00:23:30.119] be about the size of a small finch."
All right. So, those are great questions. Those are great questions, Chris. Number one, yes, you can absolutely take a 3-weight line along with you, a standard 3-weight forward or double taper line, floating line, and put it on that 10-foot 3-weight and fish dry flies with it. You don't just have to fish a mono rig. That rod is meant to fish mono rigs or do your own nymphing, but it's also a [00:24:00.500] fun dry fly rod or a small nymph rod with a standard line. So, it's perfectly fine. I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about a sacrificial mono loop. That loop on the end of a fly line is really strong. I think last time I measured it, it's like 32 pounds of pull before it breaks. So, it's not going to break it. I don't think you need a [00:24:30.220] sacrificial loop, although...you know, maybe I'm missing something. Some people tie a clinch knot right to that loop. Some people do a standard loop-to-loop connection. You know, the loop will eventually kind of wear through. The coating will eventually wear through, and then you'll have to nail-knot your leader to the fly line, which is perfectly fine. But it's not going to break. So, I don't know what a sacrificial loop is. Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe somebody can correct [00:25:00.460] me on that.
Regarding your second question, Orvis reels that are vintage, well, you know, any of the old Orvis reels that you might find on eBay or, you know, that use tackle catalog or website are going to be great. I mean, they all last forever. And, you know, there isn't much that can go wrong with an older reel [00:25:30.119] that a little maintenance can't help. One of the things you might want to look at, a reel that's brand new and vintage is the C.F.O. reel. That reel has not changed much since the 1970s. It's made in New Hampshire now. It used to be made in England, and it's my preferred trout reel. It's just a click and pawl. It doesn't have a disc drag. I don't care. For trout fishing, nearly [00:26:00.220] every circumstance I think I can do just fine with a click and pawl reel. And it's a beautiful reel and it sounds incredible. So, that might serve your purpose.
And then as far as dry flies for a dry dropper, you know, you have to have something big enough to suspend the nymphs that you were hanging on the dry. So, you'd be surprised at, you know, a size 10 foam fly or a size [00:26:30.119] 12 foam fly that you'd think would be too big of a fly for the east, particularly on small streams, it will be eagerly accepted by the fish. And you really need something big enough and high floating enough to hold those nymphs up. So, that's why people generally use a bigger dry fly to hold them up. Now, if you're using a lightly weighted nymph or a little tiny pheasant tail, you could, you know, probably hang your flies off of 14 or 16 parachute atoms or something [00:27:00.240] like that that floats pretty well or a small hopper. But, you know, I use all sizes. I use anything from as big as a size 8 in small streams to as small as I would say a 16 for dry dropper rigs, depending what dry fly I think the fisher gonna be interested in.
Here's an email from Chase from the Catskills. "I'm an avid fly tyer looking to deepen my understanding of materials. [00:27:30.339] I've come across various types of dubbing, squirrel, rabbit, synthetic, Muskrat, fox, and others. And I'm curious to learn more about the actual differences between them. Are there notable distinctions in texture, buoyancy, durability, or how they perform in different fly conditions? Additionally, are there certain dubbings better suited for specific flies or fishing conditions? I greatly appreciate your insight or any resources you could recommend to help expand my knowledge." Well, Chase, yeah, there are differences. [00:28:00.138] Generally, for dry flies where you want a slimmer, tighter body, the finer dubbings are going to work better. You know, things like Muskrat, fox is a really wonderful dubbing, and some of the ultra-fine synthetics work quite well. And the fly floatings we have these days are so good that the floating qualities of the fur itself [00:28:30.240] really doesn't matter that much because, you know, as long as it'll absorb a fly float and it's going to float your fly pretty well.
And then, you know, the buggier dubbings are typically used for nymphs, things with more guard hairs or more spikes sticking out of them, and sometimes those are brushed out. You know, they're typically used for nymphs because they imitate the gills and sometimes the legs on an aquatic insect. But there's no reason that [00:29:00.099] you can't use a buggier dubbing on a dry fly, too. It might work pretty well. So, I think you need to look at what kind of profile you want on your fly and just, you know, keep your dubbings limited. You know, one of the best things to do is buy one of these dubbing sets, one in an ultra-fine or, you know, a dry fly type dubbing, and then more of a spiky, [00:29:30.240] buggy dubbing, and then go from there. You can always combine the two if you want. You can get different colors by mixing them and, you know, experiment with a few natural things. Again, I love Red Fox's. If you can find it, it is a really wonderful dry fly dubbing and it dubs beautifully. But you'll find ones that you like and just, you know, start out with some basic stuff and then branch out from there. But, you know, that's a good idea. This could be a good [00:30:00.079] future podcast with somebody like Tim Flagler or Cheech. So, I'm going to think about doing a dubbing podcast with one of those guys.
Rob: Hey, Tom, Rob, the fly enthusiast from Rochester, New York, calling. You had a caller recently ask about a chair recommendation, and you gave great advice, and, of course, recommended frequent breaks and that sort of thing. I've got some other advice as well. Definitely, a high-quality chair is going to help you a lot. After putting in a lot of time and effort to figure out what [00:30:30.119] worked well for me, I settled on a used Herman Miller Aeron chair, A-E-R-O-N. This is a high-end mesh suspension chair with a lot of adjustability for the lumbar and the tilt and the arms are fantastic. You can adjust the arms up and down, in and out so that you can rest your elbows and, you know, still operate your bobbin or your scissors. So, there are other manufacturers that make similar chairs. [00:31:00.220] But take a look at a high-end mesh suspension task chair with a lot of adjustability and look on Facebook Marketplace. You know, brand new, these things are, like, $1,400, but I bought mine for about $300.
Secondly, consider a stand-up desk. I've got one that's kind of a U-shaped deal. And even when I'm sitting, it's great because I have all my tools, my spool storage, my feathers. All of it is up on top of this thing, like, in a stadium seating arrangement where I have access to all of it. [00:31:30.160] And my vice is on, you know, the tabletop below it that would generally have your laptop or your keyboard on it. And then, of course, you can pop the thing up and stand up and tie, which is great for your back. Thirdly, get a loop band and keep it in your fly-tying area. After you've got your arms out in front of you and your shoulders hunched, you got to give your shoulders some relief. So, grab that loop band, do some loop band pull-aparts or shoulder squeezes, [00:32:00.059] whatever you want to call them, and that'll really open up those shoulder capsules and help you quite a bit. I hope these tips help. I tie an awful lot and this has really worked out well for me. Thanks.
Tom: So, Rob, thank you. You know, I have had numerous requests for suggestions for more comfort in fly tying. And, you know, my only advice was to get up and walk around more, but those are really [00:32:30.019] great specific suggestions. All good. And I want to thank you very much for taking the time to share that with us because that's a super tip. And I know a lot of people are going to appreciate your advice. Here's an email from Zach from Salt Lake City. I've been fly fishing seriously for over a year now and have found your podcast and videos being valuable and learning more about the sport. Recently, I was on a local tailwater during the first week in January, and while walking upstream, I saw what I'm very [00:33:00.180] sure was a single caddisfly walking up the snow line bank. Considering the last caddisfly hatch probably happened months ago, I was stumped as to why it was there. I listened to your western caddis pod to see if I could find an answer there, and I'm still stumped. If you have any ideas, it would be appreciated. Also, I acquired an old click and pawl reel to accompany an old fiberglass rod I inherited, and I'm wondering, is there anything you recommend I do to get the reel in fishing condition?"
Well, Zach, [00:33:30.140] you know, I have seen caddisflies, too, occasionally in the wintertime. You're seldom going to see a really heavy hatch, but that might have been just an oddball that hatched. You know, they're active. They can be active during the winter, and you have a warm day and a few caddisflies might pop. I don't know for sure. Just make sure that...you know, hopefully, you took a picture of it. Take a look at it closely. What you see frequently [00:34:00.319] in the wintertime are little black or brown stoneflies, they call them snowflies, that you'll see crawling along the banks in the snow. And those are fairly common. So, you said you were sure it was a caddisfly, so I don't doubt that, but you will see a lot of little stoneflies crawling around the bank and sometimes midges as well. Caddisflies, less likely, but, you know, you never know when you're going to see one.
Regarding your old click and [00:34:30.019] pawl reel, take it apart and clean it out. You know, probably best to clean it out, remove any old grease or lubricant that's on there. Make sure there's no rust. If there's rust in it, you know, take a little emery cloth or steel wool and buff it up. Take a look at the pawls and the springs. You may need to adjust the springs a little bit if it's a click and pawl. You can bend those springs to make them a little looser or tighter, and then [00:35:00.059] just give it a coat of a light grease or a light lubricant to protect it, and that should be fine. As long as it runs smoothly and the click sounds good, then I think you're good to go.
Here's an email from Pete from Indiana. "First, thanks for all you and Orvis do. Second, I was glad to finally hear my favorite Orvis product get some love, the Carry-It-All. I love mine and was going to suggest you give it a shout-out. I keep it under my bed. And [00:35:30.179] whenever I get a chance to go fishing, I grab it, my net, my sling pack, and I'm out the door. I usually wet wade. I also travel all over the country and have no issues other than TSA usually likes to open it and take a closer look if I carry it on. I especially love the overlapping zippers for a TSA lock but would highly recommend putting an air tag in just in case. You never know. Next, I have a question and a tip. My question, I was recently surf fishing in Florida for anything that would bite [00:36:00.019] but was hoping for snooks or jacks. The mullet were in full force with huge schools tracking up and down the coast. Working on a tip from local fly shop, I was throwing a clauser to the schools, letting it sink underneath and stripping it back to see what was with them, the mullet. I caught a few ladyfish and some small jacks, but four times, I would get a quick hit and my fly was gone. Just like that. No fight, not even that hard of a hit, just a bump and then nothing. It felt almost like a missed strike. I inspected the end of the [00:36:30.000] line, there was no pigtail, but after your episode of knots, I learned that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
I reeled in some decent ladyfish and always test my knots, so I don't think they were giving out especially so quickly. I built my own leaders and was using 12-pound fluorocarbon at the fly with a standard clinch. I can't imagine what could snap 12-pound like that without barely bending my rod, and then the abrasion resistance of fluorocarbon makes cutting so quickly hard to imagine. The only times this happened was under these schools. [00:37:00.579] Any thoughts? My tip is for anyone who sharpens their hooks, which I learned from you should be all of us. I work with high-alloy metals and wanted to pass on some information. If you have stainless hooks, you really want to use a dedicated hook hone for those hooks. Using the same hone for carbon steel and stainless steel hooks will introduce extra iron to the stainless from the carbon steel ones. This will lead to rough spots which will eventually worsen if exposed to salt water. Hook [00:37:30.099] hones are cheap and having one for each type of steel is an easy way to protect your hooks."
Well, thank you, Pete. Thank you both for that tip on sharpening. I had never heard that before, so that news to me, and I'll remember that. Regarding your question, I think my suspicion is that there were either some small bluefish or [00:38:00.280] maybe little barracudas under that school. A small bluefish or a 'cuda can cut through 12-pound fluorocarbon like nothing. They can cut through 20-pound pretty easily. I think that maybe there might have been some bluefish or little 'cudas or maybe a snapper underneath there that cut your leader. It's the only thing I can think of. It's possible that mullet have sharp [00:38:30.320] fins. Maybe they have something sharp on them that also would cut your leader. Mullet typically don't take flies, but if they were so thick, you might have bumped into them.
It's not unusual for a fish to cut through 12-pound fluoro fairly easily, certain fish. So, I think that's probably what it was. ladyfish do have an abrasive mouth, and if you caught a bunch of them, they could have gradually abraded your leader. But you said you inspected [00:39:00.340] your knot, so I don't think that was the case. I think there was something sneaky underneath there that was cutting you off. But you never know, and interesting situation, though. All right. That is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Cam about how we can have great trout fishing and agriculture if people work together. Well, my guest today [00:39:30.480] is Cameron, Cam Aker. And Cam is, let's see if I get this right, the outreach director for the Iowa chapter of Trout Unlimited or the Iowa Council.
Cam: I just got a promotion. I'm the outreach coordinator for the Driftless region of Iowa of Trout Unlimited.
Tom: Okay. We're going to talk about the Driftless, in general. People don't normally think of Iowa as a trout state, [00:40:00.179] but I have heard that actually there is some pretty good trout water there. And one of the things I don't want to do is try to hotspot here because I understand there's a lot of small wild trout streams in the Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa area, and those things tend to be sensitive. So, I don't want to send a lot of crowds there. I have [00:40:30.320] reservations about talking about it. But because we're going to be talking about habitat and land use practices and how to protect native brook trout populations, I think it would apply to other places in the country as well, so not to hotspot the Driftless.
Cam: Yep, we're not going to do that today.
Tom: Okay, good. Good. So, [00:41:00.496] let's talk about the region and the unique geology and what's there now and what can be done, Cam.
Cam: All right. So, the Driftless region is a non-glaciated area in the Midwest, so covers portions of Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin. It's called that because there was no glacial drift from the last glaciers that went across the United States. We've got about 600 cold water streams that are all spring-fed. So, that's one [00:41:30.300] really great thing about this region is the water temperatures stay relatively cold because it's all spring-fed streams so that it's mineral-rich, great macroinvertebrate ecosystems, and it's really great for the fish and the other wildlife around those streams. But this is a really heavily farmed area. I'd love to go back in time and look at pre and post-European settlement and just see what these streams [00:42:00.079] were like a couple hundred years ago, but we're dealing with the aftermaths of the plow, essentially. And literal tons of sediment were deposited in our watersheds and flood plains, and that's what we're fighting today because that sediment's unstable. We get high rain events, and it just breaks away stream banks and just causes a lot of silting, which, as we all know, is not good for trout reproduction and the [00:42:30.239] silk carries a lot of bad things with it like nitrates, and phosphates, and E. coli, and all that bad stuff that we don't really want in our water is all akin to the practice that we had in place 150 years ago.
Tom: Yeah. And these problems aren't unique to the Driftless certainly. I live in an agricultural valley, and I love having family farms as neighbors. But we [00:43:00.059] have the same kind of issues with agriculture. And I think any lowland river really these days that stays cold enough for trout is going to have these problems, right? So, they're going to apply to lots and lots of areas throughout the country.
Cam: Yep, exactly. And so, the work that we do is we do the stream restoration work, but we also work with a lot of our landowners and farmers to educate about different practices that they [00:43:30.000] could perform on their landscape and try to get them bought in because the farmers and growers and landowners, they drink the same water that we do. And this is an active landscape, and they need the water for their livestock and their crops in some instances. They don't want polluted water either, but they just may not understand some of the practices that are beneficial to the streams and [00:44:00.159] the ecosystems. So, we get a lot of really good feedback from our farmers that, yeah, they want to try something new, but it's kind of scary, and they may not know the resources to help fund some of these new practices and things like that.
Tom: Yeah. You know, I also think that in some cases, it's the changing philosophy of the biologists and the land managers that, [00:44:30.519] you know, farmers sometimes don't know which direction to go. I'll give you a good example. In the river that I live on, it has a lot of spring influence, a lot of cold water coming in. And back in the...it's probably the '50s or '60s, I'm not sure, but some of the old farmers told me this, that the state had come in and told them to clear all the trees away from the river because the water was too cold and it wasn't producing enough [00:45:00.260] trout. So, they went on to cut all the trees down to warm the water up.
Cam: Yeah, yep. [crosstalk 00:45:06.376]
Tom: And this is what it was told to the farmers by the biologists. So, you know, those of us who are kind of on the conservation side have to realize that we're not always telling the same story.
Cam: Right, right. And now, you know, you get a generation that...you know, we've had instances where a landowner is like, "Yeah, I remember my dad was paid to straighten this stream. Why [00:45:30.260] would you want to re-meander it?" You know, we've had that conversation. It's like, "Well, science has changed, and we've grown, and we understand it better. And, yeah, it's trying to take back some of the practices that we preached in the last generation or two."
Tom: Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. So, you know, you're working with the landowners, and tell me some of the things that work, you [00:46:00.260] know, what resonate with the agricultural community, and some of the things that don't maybe that are tougher to...
Cam: Yeah. So, really, the number one thing that works is to remind these landowners that, you know, you lose an acre of land from stream bank erosion, that's 10,000 bucks. You know, an acre of land in Iowa is anywhere from $8,000 to $15,000 dollars, depending on where it's at. And so, if they look at it that way, well, it makes bottom-line sense [00:46:30.440] to protect their ground because, like I said, every acre could be $10,000 on average just going washing away down the stream. And that's harder money to buy that land, and that's less, you know, agricultural use they can have, and that's less pasture for grazing, and that's usually the thing that resonates the most. You know, when it comes to the things that resonate the least, it's the cost of these restoration projects. They're very expensive. [00:47:00.480] But we're really fortunate. We work with the USDA, the NRCS, and we have a partnership through them that we can do a cost share on these projects. So, if we come in and we're shaping the banks and reconnecting the stream to the floodplain, the farmer or landowner, they're basically out of pocket maybe 20%, 25% of that work.
So, it's very beneficial to them to have, you know, these [00:47:30.119] resources. And then, you know, part of my job is to look for other funding sources. We have other partners like Pheasants Forever, and Ducks Unlimited, and NWTF, and folks and other fly fishing organizations that want to help restore cold-water ecosystems. And so, they'll chip in money, too, where, you know, that farmer, landowner may not have anything out of pocket at the end of the day. So, it's just helping them find the resources available [00:48:00.400] to get this going. So, there's really not that many downsides to it. It's just, you know, the time that it takes and the cost is sometimes scary to get over that first hurdle.
Tom: Let's dig into that floodplain reconnection a little bit more. So, the example that I often see is a farmer is losing pasture land or cropland to an eroding bank. And so, they come in [00:48:30.079] and they dump a whole pile of rock, particularly slate because slate is virtually in my part of the world, slate you can get for free because there's a lot of slate quarries, and you can get junk slate. So, they'll go in and dump slate, which makes sense. I, at first, did it on my own land because I wanted to stop some erosion, and the trout don't like it. They don't like sharp rocks. And [00:49:00.019] it ends up eroding anyways. How do you talk a landowner out of just dumping rock in the river?
Cam: Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. And we still have that mentality of, "Yeah, just dump rock in there and dump that hole and color good."
Tom: It makes intuitive sense, right?
Cam: It does. It makes sense and it's cheap. But in Iowa specifically, we are still using rock to an extent. [00:49:30.280] We'll rock what we call the toe, which is where the bank meets the stream. And we'll utilize some rock in our part of the world's limestone with our topography limestones close to the surface and easy to mine or easy to quarry. So, we'll put that in and pack it in, and then we'll regrade the stream at a very gradual grade away from the...or sorry, the bank away from the stream. So, we'll create what we [00:50:00.199] call a bench. So, it might be anywhere from 10 to 20-foot, almost level area on both sides of the stream, and then we'll form that up at kind of a gradual slope to the remaining area around it. So, what I like to say is it helps that stream breathe under a high-water event. It lets it have somewhere to go. And when it gets out of the bank and onto our bench, which is our new floodplain, it can deposit [00:50:30.039] sediment that way, and then it'll re-vegetate and close up that sediment and that sediment stays out of the stream.
So, that's really kind of a two-fold approach where, you know, if a landowner does have cattle grazing, that really low slope, you know, is going to be less impacted by the cattle grazing because they're not grazing on a really steep angle. And then [00:51:00.219] we will come in with native plants because a lot of ours are sedge prairies or sedge meadows. And so, we'll come in with naturalized ecotypes that will work well in our environment, and it's great for pollinators, it's great for birds, upland species, deer, you know, all that good stuff. So, it's more than just when it comes to the edges, it's a lot more than just the trout that we're trying to benefit there.
Tom: So, how do you convince a [00:51:30.219] landowner, I mean, if he dumps rock in, he's going to lose maybe a foot short term as opposed to saying, "I'm going to take 10 feet of your valuable cropland where you grow corn"? Because in some of these valleys, you know, they're pretty intensively farmed and it's pretty valuable a couple of rows of corn. You know, how do you convince them that...?
Cam: Well, it's part of our cost share. You know, is saying [00:52:00.119] that, "Hey, if we do this, you know, you're going to get paid for us to come and clean this up and do the sloping and grading." Yeah, it is tough, and there are some instances where we may not do that benching. We may come in with a 4 to 1 slope, which is for every foot away from the bank, we rise 4 feet, which is better. It's not ideal. But in some instances, you know, if that's what it's going to take for us to do the job and [00:52:30.159] restore these streams, that's what we'll do. So, sometimes it's a compromise on our end to maybe not do the benching but still do the sloping. So, it's a give and take, and that's one big thing about...especially the Driftless region and really all regions is when it's a working landscape, you sometimes have to make compromises. So, especially really, really severe 20-foot...if we have [00:53:00.139] a 20-foot sheer bank, the amount of soil excavating out of that and the amount of cost, you'd have to have someplace to go with that sediment. So, we may not even have a place to take it, or, you know, we can't pile it because then it could, you know, be a runoff issue there. So, a lot of times, if we have some really severe cases, we will do the gradual sloping versus the benching.
Tom: Okay, okay. And that's expensive because [00:53:30.119] you got to bring a backhoe to do that, right?
Cam: It is. Oh, yeah, you're bringing in backhoes and dozers and your hours, you know, sometimes weeks of labor depend on the project. And we can have projects go, you know, half million dollars, you know, on a mile stretch. Yeah, it's a lot of expense.
Tom: Yeah. Now, when you're trying to put the stream back into the natural floodplain, typically, there's some meanders there, and where they've straightened the stream. And [00:54:00.960] let's say one landowner owns one side and the other landowner owns the other side, and you want to cut into both of their lands to make these meanders, how do you handle that?
Cam: Yeah, that's getting everybody on the same page. That is really hard. So, we actually have that instance coming up on a project that one side is cropped, the other side is timbered, and the side that's timbered is a [00:54:30.079] hunting lease, and those individuals do not want any heavy equipment or any construction going on on their side. So, in that instance, there's bedrock exposed on that opposite bank, so we can kind of use the stream in our advantage that if we repair one side and try to re-meander it, we can put deflectors and kind of divert the channel in a way that that's going to hit exposed bedrock so [00:55:00.019] that way it should not take any more land from that opposite landowner. But, yeah, it's still tricky and there are instances where we have had to walk away from projects because we couldn't get all landowners on board, which is very unfortunate.
But typically, what we see is once we have someone, you know, a neighbor do a project and the neighbors upstream and downstream kind of see it, [00:55:30.179] they usually will be open to doing something because once they see it and hear their neighbor say, "Yeah, it wasn't that bad," they're more likely to do something. And I also I'm hosting some field days this year where I'm taking farmers out to some of our existing or some of our past project sites and just showing them so they can kick the tires and we can just have a blunt conversation about, "This is what happens, this is what we [00:56:00.019] do, and this is what the finished product looks like," so they can kind of take it for a test drive.
Tom: Yeah. And then you get a watershed-wide situation versus just going in and putting a little structure as we've learned, just putting a little structure here and there, and one piece of land doesn't do you much good in the long run.
Cam: And that's one thing that we're really focusing on is whole watersheds. And we have some really great watershed coordinators that I'm working with here in Iowa that [00:56:30.239] are very eager to get a lot of work done. And it's just trying to get that first one on board. And once we get that, we can really go gangbusters on the rest of them.
Tom: Okay. So, talk a little bit about how these things get paid for.
Cam: Okay. So, we have what's called an RCPP through the NRCS-USDA. And it's a Farm Bill-funded program. So, you know, shout out [00:57:00.039] to the Farm Bill. It's more than just farming. So, what that is is the regional conservation partnership program. So, we are slated X number of dollars through the Farm Bill to have landowners sign up for these programs, and then we'll use the USDA's engineering team, and they will come on-site. We'll have district conservationists and our DNR folks, and we all just get together, and we walk this property with the landowner and [00:57:30.219] listen to their concerns. And then we draw up a plan, and then there's estimates that are kind of all built into this. So, we have a pretty good idea of what something's going to cost.
And then we approach the landowner saying, you know, let's just use an easy number, "This is going to cost $100,000. Well, our cost share on this particular piece is 80%. So, you can either, you know, pay $20,000 out of pocket to get this done, or if you want [00:58:00.119] to sign up for an easement with the DNR to allow fishing on your property, we'll do our best to get, you know, other partners in and do some fundraising and hopefully come up with that 20% cost or that out-of-pocket cost for the landowner." And, you know, once we do that and show them all the figures and how it's going to work, you know, they're pretty on board. But we can do some other things like fully private funding. You know, if a TU chapter [00:58:30.159] wants to take on a project themselves and they have, you know, fundraising dollars, they could pay for that, too. So, we have other options for funding, but our main one is that RCPP through the NRCS.
Tom: Okay, okay, good. And then do you involve land trusts sometimes on those issues?
Cam: Yep, we have properties that are in, you know, different nature conservancy trusts and things like that. And we're able to still work on those [00:59:00.000] lands. There are some things where we got to get creative with our funding resources just so we're not breaking any laws with using federal dollars. And there's, you know, checks and balances with everything. You know, we have some really great staffers, you know, on the team that I work with that have been doing this for quite a while, and they've seen about any instance you can imagine. So, they're really good [00:59:30.000] and our state DNR is really good about assisting as well. And our TU chapters, you know, our partners are very giving to get these projects done.
Tom: So, this is a government agency you're working with. It sounds like the red tape is relatively minimal on this?
Cam: It's a lot of red tape.
Tom: Okay. All right.
Cam: Yep, yep. But again, you know, we have conservation agronomists, and we have engineers [01:00:00.139] that we work with through the NRCS, and they're very good. But it just takes time and there's ranking deadlines. So, we only can accept applications through certain windows, and we have to act fast once we get approved. And so, there are some, you know, like you said, red tape, but we manage it.
Tom: Okay. So, TU is more acting as the facilitator in these instances?
Cam: Yep. [01:00:30.380]
Tom: Okay. And want to talk a little bit about some of the brook trout initiatives in your areas. Let's talk a little bit about what's going on there.
Cam: Yeah. So, all the states, they have, you know, trout programs. And, you know, Iowa is really focusing on brook trout reintroduction. So, they quit stocking brown trout. It's been, you know, almost [01:01:00.239] a decade ago I think at this point. And they're just stocking fingerling brook trout that are our Iowa native strain. We have one strain that was identified back in the '90s as unique to Iowa. And I actually was able to help this last fall. We'd go out and collect eggs from a certain stream in the state and the milk, and then those are taken to one of our hatcheries [01:01:30.719] and grown out into fingerlings. And then they find areas that are most likely to be able to sustain a brook trout population. And a lot of times that works in coordination with some of our restoration projects. So, we will prioritize projects that are brook trout oriented or focused, and that kind of works in conjunction. So, the state of Iowa still does stock rainbows in some streams for more like a [01:02:00.179] catch and keep situation to help our native and wild stocks. But, yeah, that's their main focus right now is that native genetically diverse strain here in Iowa. And Wisconsin's got Brook Trout Reserves, which is a really awesome program. Minnesota also has Brook Trout Focus. Yeah, there's a lot of work being done behind the scenes that a lot of folks don't know about.
Tom: So, there were historically still some [01:02:30.099] brook trout left in Iowa where you were able to collect some wild fish?
Cam: Yeah. So, the DNR has stocking documentation from the late 1800s of brook trout stocking in Iowa. Like I said, in the '90s, they were doing some genetic work, and they found this unique strain to our state, and that's what they're using now. So, they usually collect every other year or every third year, [01:03:00.159] kind of depending on weather impacts and the population impacts because they want to make sure that they don't kill the population that we have left. We don't want to put any extra strain on it. You know, they'll go out and collect, you know, a few hundred to 1,000 eggs and then raise those up into fingerlings.
Tom: And they keep them separate from all the other strains obviously.
Cam: Yep. They'll have their own separate raceway, and they're not kept in captivity for very [01:03:30.139] long. They're released as fingerlings.
Tom: Cool. So, how many streams roughly, or how many miles do you think you'll be able to re-brook trout?
Cam: Yeah. So, I can't really speak to number of miles. But right now, we have somewhere in the low to mid-20s of the number of streams that have reproducing brook trout populations in them, and that fluctuates [01:04:00.480] because like we've talked before, it's heavily farming impacted area of the world, and we have to watch that nasty word climate change that some folks don't like to talk about. We have to watch out for that. Brook trout do not like warming waters. So, we're fighting that as well. So, we have some streams that will go dry, or they'll basically go underground during extreme droughts, and obviously, that is not good for a brook [01:04:30.019] trout population. So, we lose some here and there.
Tom: Yeah, yeah. You talked about Wisconsin has a...what was it? Brook Trout Reserve?
Cam: Brook Trout Reserves, yeah.
Tom: How is that handled?
Cam: Yeah. So, I don't know all the details on that, but they have some great publications on their website. So, if you just google Wisconsin DNR Brook Trout Reserves, it tells you anything you could want to know. But basically, [01:05:00.280] these are areas that have the best habitat, the coldest water, and it's kind of a reserve for climate change and environmental impacts on brook trout. So, they're kind of the crème de la crème of trout streams in Wisconsin are protected under this Brook Trout Reserve. So, they have added protections for development and things like that adjacent to the stream. [01:05:30.219] And you can fish them. You just got to watch your local regs. But, yeah, they're a really cool resource for the state of Wisconsin.
Tom: They don't build barrier dams or anything to keep [crosstalk 01:05:45.109].
Cam: Not to my knowledge, no. But in the Driftless region, we are kind of toying around with the beaver dam analogs that have been brought up before. And so, we're really interested to see...and some of the states are doing research on [01:06:00.179] this to look at the impact of beaver dams with brook trout because they co-evolved together on this landscape, and there's got to be some sort of connection there that the science world is trying to figure out. And, yeah, that could be a tool in our toolbox in the coming years or those BDAs.
Tom: Do you want to talk a little bit about those? People may not have heard about beaver dam analogs.
Cam: Yeah. So, you know, human-made [01:06:30.539] beaver dam, it's very simple. People go out. You can usually do these with two or three people. You go out and you put wooden stakes in the stream bed, and you weave together branches of willows or kind of whatever you have on your landscape that you kind of go think like a beaver. TU's been doing this a lot in the West. So, there's some really cool videos on YouTube for Trout Unlimited beaver dam [01:07:00.079] analogs. But, yeah, you just kind of go out, and you make a makeshift beaver dam with the hopes that the beaver dams will or the beavers will come in and kind of keep those up. They'll get washed out with high rain events, and that's natural. They'll build them back. And sometimes if there aren't beavers on the landscape, humans will go back and rebuild those. And they help with sediment loss. They'll keep sediment out of the stream. [01:07:30.019] They act like a filter. So, it's pretty crude and rudimentary practice, but it's very effective and helps raise the water table and add diversity to riparian areas. It's a really cool practice.
Tom: Yeah, it is, it is. I'm toying with the idea of doing some on my property if I can.
Cam: But, yeah, beavers are controversial, especially in the ag world. You know, they can cause damage. So, you know, we have to watch, you [01:08:00.059] know, where we place them. And we're working with state and federal agencies with that as well, you know, with permitting and just making sure they're not going to cause more harm than good.
Tom: Yeah. I've become a big fan of beavers the more I learned about their effects on trout streams. You know, I used to think they block spawning access, and they warm the water when it's...and they actually don't block spawning access, but trout can get through them. And [01:08:30.340] they raise the water table, so they put more water underground.
Cam: Yeah. That was a cool study. I mean, trout get through them. There's been folks, you know, they'll radio, put radio transmitters on the brookies, and they'll get right through those beaver dams. Yeah, it's pretty cool.
Tom: Yeah. All right. So, what else is TU doing in that part of the world?
Cam: Yeah. So, we talked a lot about helping landowners and farmers. And another thing that we do is helping farmers [01:09:00.319] with conservation practices on their lands and helping identify ones that will be more beneficial to the watershed as a whole. Some examples of that, you know, things as simple as no-till, not running a disc or a plow across that land, and breaking up that topsoil. And you go no-till for a few years, and that soil kind of reverts back to its natural state where it becomes a sponge. And [01:09:30.000] it's really good for groundwater filtration, and also, you're not breaking up that topsoil. So, you get a lot less sediment runoff during major rain events. So, it's one of those things that it seems so simple, but again, it costs money. Farmers have to modify their equipment. If they don't have no-till-ready equipment, they have to modify that. So, the seed can get in [01:10:00.000] the ground at the appropriate depth.
And other things we promote are cover crops. You know, what that is for folks that may not understand that is you're planting an annual crop, you know, basically either in season or right after harvest, and then you're keeping some sort of green living plant on that landscape to help act as a filter as well. So, it locks up, you know, nutrients that would likely [01:10:30.100] escape down tile lines or surface runoff. So, it acts as a filter as well. And another big thing up in our neck of the woods is contour farming. So, you farm with the hill instead of up and over the hill. So, you're less likely to get washouts and, again, sediment erosion and things like that. So, those are three really good practices that we promote and have a pretty good stronghold and getting [01:11:00.220] adapted more and more every year.
Tom: What are the drawbacks to those? I mean, what are the objections and the drawbacks to those kinds of land use practices?
Cam: Yeah. Usually, it comes down to cost, or a farmer may not have done this before, and so they don't have all the information, they don't have all the data to know that how it's going to affect their operation. So, i have an agronomy background which is very unique to Trout Unlimited. [01:11:30.079] So, I've done 17 years doing cropping systems and seed research. So, when a farmer asks me, "How's this going to affect my operation?" I actually either have the answer, or I can point them in the right direction to get them the answer, which is very beneficial to my work in Iowa is it beats the biologist talking to a farmer, I can speak the language. But again, back to your question, yeah, it's cost. [01:12:00.399] That's the big thing. Again, there's programs that can help offset the cost of going to cover crops. There's federal funds, there's state funds, there's private funds. You know, no-till, that's a different one. If you have to modify equipment, that's usually straight out of pocket for the farmers. But that's relatively cheap compared to some other things. But, yeah, contour farming, there's not really much cost in [01:12:30.000] that, unless they're putting in grass ways or buffers or things like that. But again, there's cost-share programs for that, too. So, if they just know the right resources and who to contact, a lot of the stuff can be paid for.
Tom: So, there's no cost share, though, for a farmer to retrofit to his machinery or binary machinery for no-till...
Cam: Yeah, not to [01:13:00.119] my knowledge. But really, the cost associated with modifying...say you modify your planter, now you're not having to go across that field with a disc or a plow. So, the money you're saving in diesel fuel and that other equipment expense, you could put into modifying your planter. And that after a year or two, that cost is offset that way. So, if you think of it that route, you know, it's not that much different.
Tom: So, the [01:13:30.180] planters for no-till have to go deeper, have to get the seed down...
Cam: Correct. So, they have what's called downforce. So, it's either, like, springs or airbags because that pop soil's harder to penetrate than something that's worked. And so, yeah, they got to get in there. But again, the benefits of no-till really outweigh the cost associated with less trips across the field, and you're using your soil as a sponge, and [01:14:00.500] you're not having washouts and losing crop with high rain events you're less likely to.
Tom: Is the no-till farming just as a productive as a...?
Cam: Yeah, just as a productive. Usually, you'll see a little decrease in production the first couple of years that the soil's trying to reach equilibrium. But after three [01:14:30.159] to five years, yeah, your production is going to be just as high.
Tom: Okay. So, let's say I'm in a TU chapter, maybe I'm not even in a TU chapter in another part of the country, and I want to try to get a program like this going, what advice would you give to someone to start the process going?
Cam: [01:15:00.260] So, you mean a process like our group, our TU Dare or say a TU chapter that wants to help farmers with their farming practices?
Tom: Yeah, yeah. Let's say I'm in Wyoming or Nebraska, and I wanna positively impact the local streams where they run through agriculture valley, what's [01:15:30.539] my first step?
Cam: Yeah. So, well, really one first step is Trout Unlimited has Priority Waters. So, if you go to tu.org and look up where our Priority Waters are, we may have TU staff in that area, and you may not have to reinvent the wheel. So, that's probably the first place I would say is go to tu.org and look up Priority Waters. But if if that's not available in your area [01:16:00.100] go to your local county conservation board or talk to your state DNR and see if there's other groups that are doing work like this because this isn't necessarily novel to the Driftless region. There's a lot of fish habitat-minded partnerships all over the country that are helping farmers and helping our streams. So, I would say Google is always your friend. [01:16:30.380] I'm sure you get that with the Fly Box questions. You just Google it first before you start to try to reinvent the wheel.
Tom: Yeah, yeah, okay. So, that's the best first step.
Cam: I would say that's the best way. Yep. But, yeah, get involved. Get involved with your soil water district. There are folks that, yeah, you may have differing opinions politically or whatnot, but just remember, we're all in it for the greater [01:17:00.000] good. We're all in it to have clean water and healthy soils. So, kind of put that political stuff behind the best you can and work together, you know, be a community and work together.
Tom: Yeah. And be patient as I can...
Cam: Be patient. Yep.
Tom: ...tell you from experience that it does take red tape, and you got to find the right agency, and it's going to take a while to drop the plans, and then you're going to get five or six groups involved, and...
Cam: Yep, yep, it takes a [01:17:30.020] lot of time. Yeah, it takes a lot of time. Just stick with it. Just stick with it. And I was giving a tour of one of our restoration projects, and I had a young guy ask me, he's like, "I get frustrated, and our water's so bad, and all this stuff." And I said, "I know. I get it, and I get frustrated, too. But if we can just do a little bit, if everybody can just do a little something, those little somethings add up. And that's what kind of keeps me going is [01:18:00.199] just try to do your part and do what you can. And if you can influence one or two other people, that's a good day."
Tom: Yep. And everybody wants clean water. You don't find many people that say, "I really wish that river was dirtier."
Cam: Right, right. Never heard that. I've never heard that statement.
Tom: No, no. Well, maybe some carp anglers would say, "Well, I wish it was warmer and siltier."
Cam: That's true. Yeah, a little more toxic in that. [crosstalk 01:18:28.910]
Tom: Yeah, we can [01:18:30.380] find plenty of places for carp. We don't need to be...
Cam: Yeah, they got plenty of places.
Tom: Yeah. All right. Cam, well, that was great and really interesting to see what's going on there and really encouraging to see anglers working with federal agencies and farmers and communities to make the water cleaner for all of us. It was a great story.
Cam: Yep, yep, we're doing our best.
Tom: All right. [01:19:00.406] And if somebody wants to see more of the work that you're doing, what's a website that they can take a look at?
Cam: Yeah, tu.org/driftless...
Tom: Driftless, okay.
Cam: ...or look us up on Facebook, TU Driftless.
Tom: Okay. All right. Great. Well, thank you so much, Cam. Really appreciate you taking the time.
Cam: Thank you. Appreciate you, Tom.
Tom: All right. We'll talk to you soon.
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have [01:19:30.140] a question or a comment? Send it to us at