The US Forest Service Needs Your Help, with Paul Hendricks

Tom Rosenbauer (00:01): My guest today is Paul Hendricks and Paul is the executive director of the Conservation Alliance. Paul, before we start, can you tell people a little bit about what the Conservation Alliance is? Because it's a relatively new organization.

Paul Hendricks (00:17): Yeah. Well, first of all, thanks for having me, Tom. This is really cool to connect ⁓ in this way. For sure. Yeah. So the Conservation Alliance ⁓ is, it's, I would say the one liner is we're the business voice for conservation in North America. We were started by Patagonia, REI, Kelty and North Face back in the day as a means to kind of bring together the collective financial and kind of brand awareness of the outdoor plus industry.

Tom Rosenbauer (00:20): Yeah, thank you for coming on. Mm-hmm. Yep.

Paul Hendricks (00:45): to really advocate for protecting nature in North America. And that's what we're doing today is really using the business lens towards protecting the amazing landscapes that we all like to enjoy for so many different reasons.

Tom Rosenbauer (00:58): Yeah, I mean, those are some powerful organizations. have a big voice, but they need to magnify that voice. And ⁓ we all need to work together in the outdoor industry for what we love.

Paul Hendricks (01:08): We definitely do. Yeah. think it's, you know, collective action is how anything gets done these days. And, you know, we recognize that brands all have their competitive spirit and their different products and all that. But there are some, some backbones, some truths, which underpin all of our existence as brands. And for us, we know that healthy lands and waters across the nation, across the world, you if we don't have those and

Tom Rosenbauer (01:26): Yeah.

Paul Hendricks (01:36): Orbis doesn't exist, Patagonia doesn't exist, right? You're not gonna sell anything if we have degraded landscapes. And so it's been a great opportunity to kind of have a pre-competitive space where people come together and say, this is an opportunity to come together as an industry, come together as individuals, come together as leaders and stick up for something together. And it's been a powerful, powerful movement for a long time now.

Tom Rosenbauer (02:01): Yeah, so we have some issues that are kind of rearing their heads that seem to threaten some of the protection of our public lands. And do you wanna mention a few of these and talk about what's happening right now, what we can do?

Paul Hendricks (02:24): Sure, yeah. So, you know, I think without getting too political, think objectively there's a lot going on on our public lands and waters right now. There's a lot of different tensions, a lot of different forces, a lot of different desires for how our lands and waters are used. And, you from my perspective, I'm again trying not to be, you know, kind of too directional on this, but they're... There's a lot of our amazing landscapes as well as the agencies that manage them in a balanced way that we're really concerned about in terms of losing potential watersheds to mining interests, losing kind of public lands out in the West to oil and gas. I think if you look at the charge, the congressionally mandated charge of the Bureau of Land Management, the Forest Service, is to... balance the usage of these lands and we respect that. We know that we have need for energy, we know that we have need for critical minerals, but we also have a need to protect places for fishing, ⁓ for hiking, for tribal interests, for nature. And so how do we think about balancing those and making sure that our elected officials really take to heart that balance set of things and don't skew one way or the other? And so that's our role right now.

Tom Rosenbauer (03:44): Mm-hmm.

Paul Hendricks (03:46): is to make sure that that balance ⁓ is kept and that we don't forego a lot of these long-term protections that sustain economies, they sustain gateway communities because of protect landscapes, that we don't forego those for short-term ⁓ economic gain through kind of too much oil, gas, energy development. ⁓ Again, understanding the balance need there. So that's where we're coming at things and we're seeing a lot of different different actions that are ⁓ kind of targeting some of the underpinning laws, some specific landscapes, as well as the agencies that manage those. And so that's what we can probably dig into here. But that's kind of just the general approach of how I think we should all think about how we engage in this ecosystem a little bit.

Tom Rosenbauer (04:34): Right. mean, I think there's always been threats to our public lands throughout modern history. ⁓ But it seems like this seems like they're coming from a lot of different directions these days.

Paul Hendricks (04:49): Yeah, yeah. think, you know, a year ago, we always heard the phrase flood the zone. And I feel like it's more of a look, a little bit of like tidal waves coming in all different directions. And we have to figure out, you know, how to make sure that those don't kind of erode this infrastructure of our public land system, which, you know, for authors and presidents have forever said, this is our, this is our greatest idea, right? Public lands, like people all over the world.

Tom Rosenbauer (05:00): Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Hendricks (05:15): come to visit our public lands and it's part of our heritage, it's part of our legacy, it's part of our democracy. And so how do we protect those and make sure that all these threats don't kind of like coalesce at the same time and ruin the future that we might have for our kids and our kids' kids, et cetera.

Tom Rosenbauer (05:35): Yeah, let's talk about let's talk about the Forest Service because that's been kind of top of the news and there's some changes in the Forest Service and. Tell people a little bit about what what kind of changes are are proposed and what's going to happen for sure. What's going to be subject to appropriation and why we should be concerned about it.

Paul Hendricks (05:57): Yeah, for sure. So, you know, I think with this issue, essentially the Forest Service now it's reorganization. And before I kind of get into what happened, I always feel like with anything, I think it's good to think about what happened at the face value. Like, let's just look at what happened, but then also you need to put it in context of how that fits into what else we see happening and what...

Tom Rosenbauer (06:20): Okay, yeah.

Paul Hendricks (06:24): what kind of trajectories that we can see there. So the Forest Service announced a reorganization. So the Forest Service manages over 190 million acres across the US. And part of the reorganization, there was a couple big things that happened. One is they're moving the headquarters out of Washington, DC over to Salt Lake City. So I think they're moving 250-ish jobs out of DC and in setting up a new headquarters in Salt Lake City. They're still keeping some jobs in DC, but that's a big move. So all of sudden you have all these career forest service employees who are being forced to either move to Salt Lake City or take a leave or get out of the forest service.

Tom Rosenbauer (07:14): Yeah, doesn't that, I mean, doesn't it make sense? Most of these lands that are being managed are in the Western United States. What would be the problem moving it to a Western state out of D.C.?

Paul Hendricks (07:31): Yeah, great question. I think the intent, and I don't think the intention of getting decision making close to the lands is a bad thing. ⁓ But how it manifests, I think we're all just watching and making, and a little curious and a little concerned about. think in terms of moving the headquarters over, I think what is concerning is that you've got

Tom Rosenbauer (07:42): Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Paul Hendricks (07:58): Decisions are made in Washington, D.C., right? You've got Congress there who appropriates, who funds the agencies. You certainly have so many decision makers. Obviously the White House and everything is that, you know, not being close to those and being able to walk across town and meet with an official, meet with a congressional member, not having that is a little concerning in terms of actually getting things done, right? Like that's just the, so I think that that is a concern of moving across the country.

Tom Rosenbauer (08:21): Mm hmm. Okay.

Paul Hendricks (08:28): I think it's also a concern. in 2016, they moved the BLM out of DC to Grand Junction, Colorado. And I think they moved 300 staff over and I think only a handful actually moved. So I think our concern is that you've got these people who know how the forest service works, who have been leading research, who have been leading scientific studies, who all of sudden like, are we going to see a brain drain? I think they call it right. Are we going to see this loss of institutional knowledge in

Tom Rosenbauer (08:35): Right. Yeah.

Paul Hendricks (08:57): people who aren't ⁓ gonna make that move. And I think some people are saying like, hey, this is a year ago now, they had a big reduction in forest effort throughout the forest service where they cut a lot of jobs. And so I think some people are saying, is this essentially a way to cut jobs but not actually go through that process? I'll leave that to people to kind of think through that themselves. ⁓ But that's a big thing. I think the other...

Tom Rosenbauer (09:21): Yeah.

Paul Hendricks (09:25): A couple other things happen which ⁓ for me are equally concerning. One is they're closing 50 plus research, science and research facilities and consolidating them into one. ⁓ know, proper management of our forests, especially as we think through, but not just like biodiversity and watershed management, but also we're moving into fire season here. How you think about science in fire mitigation?

Tom Rosenbauer (09:36): Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Hendricks (09:52): Like that has to happen in order. That's the basis of the forest management. And I think that has to happen in the ground. So for me, that's concerning, right? If we see all these research facilities closing down, it's a bomber. And then we started seeing the closing of some regional offices and then being flipped out for a kind of state and politically appointed state run offices. ⁓ So, so I think it's just, you know, that that's what happened physically. I'm sure there's some other intricacies, but from my perspective, those are the big.

Tom Rosenbauer (09:58): Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Paul Hendricks (10:20): moves that happened. ⁓ And again, like if it can be executed properly in a good way where decision making is maybe more streamlined, if research and science is still there, great. But I think it's just put against the backdrop of everything else we've seen from the Forest Service that makes a lot of people ⁓ really concerned. We've seen a lot of threats to opening up, for example, the Superior National Forest up in Minnesota. we're in the middle of potentially seeing it opened up to a copper sulfide mine, would potentially leach into the boundary waters. We're seeing the roadless rule, which was this amazing protection law that protected 45 to 60 million acres of national forest. We're seeing that potentially being completely wiped out and rolled back. And so I think from a conservation, a recreation, a user side of things, you're seeing all that and then you're seeing this reorganization and you're trying to put it all in context and it's like this just, this doesn't feel great. And we want to make sure that we're, we're engaging in the process and doing the best we can to make sure that these amazing stewards of our, of our public lands have the resources, have the funding, have the science to best manage them for generations to come.

Tom Rosenbauer (11:38): Do you think that, so they're closing a lot of research centers, the four servers are running, do you think that the slack can be properly taken up by state agencies, by private agencies? Can some of that work, will some of that work still be done? Or is it just gonna disappear?

Paul Hendricks (11:59): Yeah, I think my fear is that it might disappear, right? I think if you run it to state agencies, you're going to get different kind of, you know, a concern of people as that becomes a little political and you get science done in a state that may not value conservation like other states. ⁓ It gets a little disparate. It doesn't get tied together. We've also seen attempts to like take, you know, climate change science, defund that. We're seeing a lot of different scientific programs be defunded. And I think the concern is that science helps us make smart decisions. And those smart decisions can go any direction, but if we don't have science to base this off of, then we're just kind of making decisions subjectively. And so I would worry that it's gonna get lost, to be honest with you.

Tom Rosenbauer (12:51): What kind of research were they doing? Can you give some examples of what they were working on?

Paul Hendricks (12:57): Yeah, so I think it could span the gamut. think it's research on for sure things like endangered species, habitat restoration. I think you're looking at ⁓ research into fire mitigation. ⁓ There's even research in terms of trail access and different ways that you can mitigate impacts on environments. So it spans the use from, you know, it's strict, know, species specific research to the human species interface. So I think it's It's pretty widespread in terms of what the Forest Service really did at these research stations. I don't have a science background. wish I had another career. I'd become a marine biologist. So maybe I'm a little biased on this type of thing. But I think it's so cool that we can actually, like, we have science, we have data, and then we can make a decision on that. ⁓ And so I'd worry about that, get lost.

Tom Rosenbauer (13:39): the Yeah, it's not exactly like this was pure academic science. This was applied science, stuff that we could use to help manage our resources properly, right? Yeah.

Paul Hendricks (13:59): Totally, yep, It's applied science. of it was, universities were at these stations doing hard research, but a lot of it was applied science in terms of how we can manage.

Tom Rosenbauer (14:09): Yeah. Yeah, so. How what percentage of their staff roughly has the Forest Service lost in these?

Paul Hendricks (14:21): Well, so the moves haven't happened yet. So they just announced the intent to move it. yeah. And so I think that's what kind of this week was when they announced that, you know, a few months ago was a comment period and on the potential move this week, they announced it. They're going to roll it out through the next, I think, year, year and a half. So it's TBD. ⁓ I know a lot of people are concerned about it and even staffers themselves who we've talked to in DC, you know, are

Tom Rosenbauer (14:25): They just announced them, okay?

Paul Hendricks (14:51): They're like, I'm not going to move to Salt Lake City. My life's here and everything. So we don't know what the numbers will look like at this point.

Tom Rosenbauer (14:56): Yeah. Is this, excuse my ignorance in political processes, I try to stay away from it where I can, but is this a done deal? Does this have to go through an appropriations process or is it gonna happen? I mean, is there a way to mitigate some of these losses before it becomes

Paul Hendricks (15:07): Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (15:28): Is that a complete?

Paul Hendricks (15:28): Yeah, great question. the process was, was months ago there was an open comment period about this intent, right? So that was one opportunity to engage. That happened, they closed it, and then they made the decision now. I'll be honest with you, I don't think there is much to do to stop the movement of this reorganization. I certainly think that

Tom Rosenbauer (15:38): Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Hendricks (15:55): We can put political pressure, we can put public pressure in voice our concerns so that as the move progresses, maybe people will think, well, let's actually keep some research stations open. Let's do this type of thing. So I do think there is public pressure on side of things, but then I'm going to bifurcate what you asked about appropriations. So the appropriations process is essentially thinking, how do we fund these agencies?

Tom Rosenbauer (16:12): huh, okay.

Paul Hendricks (16:24): And so what we're working on and what I think we should all really be focusing on is that agnostic to where people move, what stations, what places are closed or opened. We want to make sure that these agencies have the funding that they need. So the process of how this came to be was that months ago, there was a comment period, which the Forest Service released, which announced there that they were looking into doing this move. You had an opportunity to comment. It closed it. And now their decision came out this week. ⁓ So in terms of what we can do, like I hate to say this, but something's going to happen. Like they are moving forward with a reorganization in some way, or form. What we can do as, as the public is one is, you know, continue to voice our concerns with the proposed changes, you know, and, know, there's, there's ways that I could see that we could put enough pressure on our elected officials that maybe they're not going to close, you know, all those research facilities. Maybe they see that, this really is valuable to the public and we want to make sure we keep these out there. So.

Tom Rosenbauer (17:32): Right.

Paul Hendricks (17:34): there's some incremental changes we can have. ⁓ And then the other thing that we can do is that essentially, it's called the budget appropriations process, which is where Congress then determines the budget that all the federal agencies have. And so what we're really pushing on right now is to make sure that regardless of what happens from a reorganization perspective, ⁓ we wanna make sure that Forest Service has the proper funding to do the work, to have the staff. to do the research, et cetera, that we feel like they need. And we want to make sure that that isn't cut, because we've seen numbers come out there in the past year where they're wanting to cut the forest service budget by 60%. That's not going to effectively manage 193 acres, million acres of our forests, right? Yeah, so that's where we can push right now.

Tom Rosenbauer (18:21): Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so write or call your congressmen, your senators, and ⁓ put it in your own words. I know that ⁓ this past week, ⁓ Orvis was bombarded with these canned ⁓ responses from people. it kind of annoys me that people just copy and paste and can't put it in their own words. If you're gonna take the time to... To send an email, put it in your own words and and tell tell people why it's you know why it's why it's important. Don't just don't just cut and paste so. Get off my soapbox. Yeah.

Paul Hendricks (19:00): your words. Yeah. Yeah. And especially if you call, like if you call your offices, tell them why you care about these places, right? Like whenever we're in the members offices, like that's what they care about is your connection to this and why it actually matters. So yeah, get creative, use your voice, be authentic. That's the best we can do.

Tom Rosenbauer (19:14): Yeah. Yeah. And they were people will listen, right? Politicians will listen whether they do anything about it, but they will at least hear it. And we hope that we hope that they do the right thing.

Paul Hendricks (19:32): Take care. Yep. Yep, we've got big elections coming up this year and again in two years. And if they want to be staying in office, they need your votes and they need to hear from you and how you're going to, you're think about these issues. So, yep, they'll listen.

Tom Rosenbauer (19:39): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a, you know, this is not political. It's a nonpartisan thing. We're, standing up. We're standing up for the things we love and they, they need to be, they need to be maintained. They're not, they're, they're not going, they're not going to run by themselves. They, they do need human and scientific help to stay the way they are. And, ⁓ you know, somebody has to manage those lands and that's us, right? That's, that's,

Paul Hendricks (20:12): Exactly. Yep. It is.

Tom Rosenbauer (20:16): our taxpayer dollars, public lands, yeah, so.

Paul Hendricks (20:18): Yeah, they're called public lands for a reason. all deserve them in their healthy state and this is democracy.

Tom Rosenbauer (20:26): Yeah, yeah. And you know, there's so much we are so lucky in this country to have such amazing public lands. No other country in the world has the kind of kind of parks and public lands that we do. And ⁓ the ability to hunt and fish and hike and pick mushrooms and look at plants and everything else is in this country is just amazing. Yeah, and we need to need to protect it.

Paul Hendricks (20:52): Phenomenal. Yeah, I was I was in out in southern Utah with my kids. I've got four and six year old a week ago for a spring break and we did a camping trip and I was just like so grateful that this was a five hour drive from my house where I get to experience these things and there's people flying from all over the world spending, you know, tens of thousands of dollars to come here and what a gift. And we we don't know how how treasured it is until it's threatened or it's lost. And let's make sure we don't get to that ladder.

Tom Rosenbauer (21:06): Mm-hmm.

Paul Hendricks (21:22): statement.

Tom Rosenbauer (21:22): Yep. Yep. So that's what we can do at this point, right? Something's going to happen, but we can at least, ⁓ we can at least alleviate some of the hopefully alleviate some of the real severe cuts.

Paul Hendricks (21:25): and see what we can do. Keep at it. Exactly. Yep. You got it.

Tom Rosenbauer (21:39): Now, now do you think honestly, do you think was there some bloat in the forest service? And do you think some some trimming was needed? Or is that putting you on the spot too much? OK, alright.

Paul Hendricks (21:53): That puts me on the spot. No, I mean, I look, I'm, I appreciate efficiency, right? And so I'm, you know, always an advocate for that, but I'm also an advocate for, you know, if you do move that way, be smart, be methodical and don't take a sledgehammer towards it all. ⁓ but I don't, you know, I didn't get in deep into understanding the the Forest Services hierarchy and in the infrastructure, I'm sure there's a lot of readings out there you can find. So, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (22:26): Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean, it's easy to mean you hear it all the time is it's easy to complain about the forest service and you heard those complaints over the years. But, you know, in my personal experience with our local forest service office, the biologist there who is a who is it is just brilliant at designing stream structures that improve habitat and look So natural that you can't tell in a year that humans put those in and he, was not on forest service land. This, this guy, this guy would, would come and work with the state and with the Batonkill watershed Alliance and design these projects. And the forest service would send people to do surveys, ⁓ off for a service land. And it was just, it was so welcome and, ⁓ and so appreciated. And so my personal experience has been nothing but great.

Paul Hendricks (23:24): Same, same, yeah. They're great stewards and these, you you go talk to a Forest Service Ranger or anyone, like they're there because they love these places. And, you know, and I think sometimes thoughtfulness and methodicalness in like the long-term gets mistaken for, you know, inefficiency. And I'm not going to weigh into the Forest Service itself, but like we're making decisions today that have generational...

Tom Rosenbauer (23:32): Yeah.

Paul Hendricks (23:48): impacts and so let's make sure we're smart about them and that could go any way that you want.

Tom Rosenbauer (23:49): Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's easy from the outside to look at this as a bunch of bureaucrats, but they're not there a bunch of there a bunch of people on the ground who whose lives have been devoted to protecting these lands and they really care about these lands and the people that that use them and you know, it's ⁓ it's a travesty that so many of these people lost their jobs.

Paul Hendricks (24:18): Yep, yep, it really is. I agree with you.

Tom Rosenbauer (24:23): All right, Paul, any parting words for us?

Paul Hendricks (24:27): ⁓ man, I probably have a lot of parting words, but you're catching me on a Friday after I was up a lot with a sick kid last night, so I might, but you know, I guess maybe my parting words are like, you we all have a voice. ⁓ Sometimes you get caught up in like the noise out there, but you know, we all have a voice and if we all use it, we can make change. And let's stand up for the things that.

Tom Rosenbauer (24:29): You ⁓ no.

Paul Hendricks (24:54): define us as a nation, let's talk about, let's stand up for the things that we want for our kids. ⁓ And if there's ever an opportunity and if there's ever a time when we have to stand up for public lands and waters, it's right now because a lot of big things are happening. And if we're not out there, we're running a huge risk of losing so much. So thanks for using your voice, Tom, ⁓ and for Orvis for using your voice this past week and in other instances too.

Tom Rosenbauer (25:08): Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul Hendricks (25:22): We're all in this together, so let's join hands and make a difference.

Tom Rosenbauer (25:25): Well, Paul, thank you for dedicating your career to this. We appreciate everything you guys are doing. All right, thanks, Paul. You too, bye bye.

Paul Hendricks (25:30): You betcha. Yeah, well, thank you. All right. Yep. Take care. See ya. Bye.