15 Ways to Break a Fly Rod, with Charlie Robinton
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And my guest this week is Charlie Robinton. Charlie is a member of the Orvis outfitter team. And Charlie is particularly adept and experienced at handling rod repairs. He kind of manages that area of our customer service. I thought it would be fun to talk to Charlie about the ways fly rods are broken. And I don't mean the ways that you might've seen on the video that I did last month about what to do when your fly rod breaks, these are, I guess, less apparent, less intuitive ways of breaking a fly rod that we might not think about. There's also some fun, unusual ways that people have broken fly rods. So, I hope you enjoy the podcast. And I hope it helps you take a little bit better care of your fly rod and, you know, not have to lose a week or so when your fly rod has to be repaired. At least it'd be a week or so if it's an Orvis rod.
But first, a few announcements, actually. First of all, I am going to be attending a number of events in November, and I'd love to see you there. Beginning on Thursday, November 9th, I'm going to be at the Orvis retail store in Manhattan for a couple hours in the evening. I think it's 4 to 6 p.m., but you can check with the store in Manhattan, doing a presentation on taking your trout fishing to the next level. So, I hope to see you there. It should be fun. I always enjoy going to New York, at least for a day. And then the weekend following that, on Saturday and Sunday, I will be at the International Fly Tying Symposium in Somerset, New Jersey. I'm also teaching some classes, some limited size classes, they're limited to 10 or 12 people, and they are paid classes. You need to register ahead of time.
And if you're interested in those, I know they're filling up pretty quickly, but if you're interested in taking one of my fly-tying classes, look at the website for the International Fly Tying Symposium, 2023. You can you can sign up there. And I'll be also wandering around at the show talking to my nemesis, Tim Flagler. And then on November 15th, I'm going to be doing a live question and answer with the Western Rivers Conservancy with Sue Doroff. Sue is one of the founders of the Western Rivers Conservancy, and she is going to be retiring from her position this year, kind of a send-off. We're gonna be just talking about a lot of the ways that Western Rivers Conservancy has saved rivers by buying them and then improving the landscape and the habitat. It's an organization that I'm very, very fond of.
And we're gonna be doing it live in San Francisco, but you can also watch it online live as well through their website. So, check their website, and you'll be able to find out how to link into this talk. It should be a lot of fun. Anyway, I hope to see you at one of those events. Also, let's see, yeah, another announcement. I could use some more questions. The reason is that I'm trying to do more podcasts ahead of time. I'm trying to put some in the bank so that if I'm traveling or if something happens and I can't get a guest on the podcast, that we have something so that we make sure that we are giving you a podcast once a week. So, I'm trying to do three or four ahead so that we have something in the bank. And thus, I need more questions because otherwise, I won't be able to fill the Fly Box.
And I know some of you really like the Fly Box. Some of you skip by it, and that's perfectly fine. But could use some more questions, both voicemails and emails. And by the way, if you have a question for the Fly Box, send it to me at
And then finally, there's some new products available from Orvis, and they've kind of been introduced without any fanfare at all. But if you're a fly tier, you need to check out the Orvis website because there are a lot of new hooks and materials and tools on the Orvis website for fly tying. There are some great products from Fulling Mill, including some new grub hooks, pike hooks, barbless hooks, special nymph hooks. And also, from Fulling Mill, there's ultra dry yarn, which is my new favorite yarn for tying wings on dry flies, on a lot of dry flies. And they have really, really superior zonker strips that are just beautifully made and cut and packaged, and they have great packs of CDC. So, check those out.
And also, very exciting for me. Orvis is now selling my favorite fly-tying scissors, the Kopter scissors, K-O-P-T-E-R. So, lots of new fly-tying stuff, and more to come. So, keep checking the Orvis website for new stuff from Fulling Mill and from other fly-tying suppliers. All right. That's it for the announcements. Sorry, I had so many this week. Let's get into the Fly Box. The first one is an email from David. "I listen to your podcast and thoroughly enjoy them and learn much of what I know from them since I'm a beginner. A couple of questions. I've enjoyed watching many times the video, Rocky Mountain Fly Highway, which is on Prime, if you've never seen it." And I have seen it, by the way, and it's a great film. "And having never been in those states, I like Henry's Fork, Yellowstone, Madison, etc. I'm planning a trip next summer, May through September, to take my sons and granddaughter for the first time to fly fish. What river or lake would you recommend that's great for beginners with an ability to actually catch a few fish?"
"Number two, the family is buying my son his first fly outfit, not necessarily beginner set, but moderate price range, but not over $1,000. If he gets hooked, he can afford to go to a better rig later. Would you comment on a good rod manufacturer? Should it be a 9-foot, 5-weight, a good reel? And lines, Scientific Anglers, are they good? Is there a better line? Should it be floating? And should it be tapered?" All right, David. So, let's handle your questions one by one. First of all, that's a broad time range and a large area that you're recommending. And honestly, I could not at this point in time give you a place where the fish would be easy to catch in that area., you know, conditions change, and even fly fishing guides who are on the river every day have trouble predicting what is going to be happening the next day and whether the fish are gonna be easy or whether they're going to be difficult.
I fish that region quite a bit, and I fish it a couple times a year, but I would be reluctant to tell you where to go. I think your best bet, a couple of suggestions. One is, there are a lot of fly shops along Route 20 in Idaho, And so, the first thing I would do is right before your trip, call a couple of fly shops and tell them that you have a couple kids and you want to catch some fish and ask them, you know, where the fishing is gonna be easiest. Now, it's probably gonna be easiest the farther away you get from a road. So, most likely, unless you're gonna hire a guide, which I would highly recommend, if you really want the kids to catch fish, I'd hire a guide. But if you can't do that, you're gonna wanna get far from the road. Farther from the road, you get, probably the easier the fishing would be.
And as far as all the rivers that you mentioned, I would stay away from the Henry's Fork. The Henry's Fork is one of my very favorite trout streams in the world, but it is an extremely difficult, technical, fussy, and frustrating river And I know this very well. So, I would stay away from the Henry's Fork. But again, I would be really reluctant to tell you, and you need to really take advantage of local knowledge to have the best experience for your sons and your granddaughter. Regarding first fly outfit, first of all, manufacturer. This is the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" and Orvis makes fly rods, so I'm gonna recommend Orvis. I do think they're the best, and I've had some influence over the years on the design of Orvis fly Rods, not much, but every once in a while, they'll ask me my opinion.
But I think Orvis are the best. So, I think you should get an Orvis rod. 9-foot, 5-weight is just perfect for the region you're going to. When I go out in that area, I generally start with a 9-foot, 5-weight, and I don't pick up another rod while I'm there, even though I have several rods with me. So, 9-foot for a 5-weight is perfect., you know, any reel's gonna work well. I'm reluctant to mention a particular reel model. The Hydros is a great reel. I like the Mirage reels because they're made in U.S.A in New Hampshire. But any of the Orvis reels that you see that will, you know, hold a 5-weight line and a little bit of backing are gonna be fine.
Regarding line, I think Scientific Anglers makes the best fly lines in the world. Full disclosure, Orvis owns Scientific Anglers, but even so, I think they make the finest fly lines in the world, or the highest quality and the best performing. You definitely want a floating line. You definitely wanna tapered line. Whether you choose a weight forward or a double taper, it really doesn't make that much difference because the kids aren't gonna be casting that far, probably. And a weight forward and a double taper line are exactly the same for the first 30 feet. So, generally, the outfits come with a weight forward line, and I think that's a good all-round line. So, as far as rod models are concerned, you know, you can go anywhere in the 9-foot, 5-weight.
You can go anywhere from the Encounter rod up to the Helios 3, which is gonna be approaching that $1,000 range just for the rod. So, my advice, I think a great rod is a Clearwater rod and 9-foot, 5-weight. It's a really nice-performing rod. It's durable. It's relatively light. Now, it's not the top of the line, it's not made in our rod shop in Vermont. As you go higher in the range, the Recon and the Helios 3 are made in our rod shop. The Clearwater is made overseas to our specifications, but it's a great rod. What you get as you get go more expensive is you get a nicer fit and finish on the rod. You also get a little bit lighter rod, a stronger rod that's gonna hold up better, and more accuracy. But for someone that's starting out, I think Clearwater is the best place to start.
So, I hope that's helpful. And I'm sorry I couldn't be a travel agent for your trip, but I think you're much better utilizing local knowledge than me.
Rob: Hey, Tom, Rob Rogan from down here in [inaudible 00:14:33] , New York. I just wanted to give you a quick question. I was just having a conversation with a buddy on nymphing and kind of a debate between using beadheads versus nymphs with without a beadhead, which one gets a better draft, and which one is, you know, possibly more successful than the other. If there is any benefit to a beadhead versus a non-beadhead nymph. So, anyway, I appreciate everything you're doing for the sport and for this passion we all have. Thanks man. Bye.
Tom: So, Robert, that is really the million-dollar question. And if you asked 10 experienced nymph anglers, you'll probably get 12 or 14 different answers. There are certainly a time and place for beadheads. They sink better. They're a little flashier, so they attract attention, particularly in fast water. You generally don't have to add any split shot to your leader to get them down. But there are people that say that nymphs without beads or without any weight on them drift more naturally. Now, I don't necessarily agree with that because you got a tippet attached to that to that nymph, and the heavier the nymph, the less influence the tippet is gonna have on the drift of the nymph. So, maybe unweighted nymphs are more natural. I don't think so.
But, you know, there are times in very shallow water, small streams, when you don't want a beadhead, you don't want the nymph to stick that much. And also, beadheads tend to be flashier, and sometimes you want something a little bit more subtle. So, I can't tell you which is more successful than the other. Here's my suggestion. Carry some beadheads and various sizes and colors, and carry some non-beadhead nymphs and see which work best in your waters. But I would have both because, you know, you need to be flexible and you never know what your conditions are gonna be. Here's an email from Matt. "I had a difficult fishing situation yesterday, but it was also a valuable learning opportunity, and I wanna make sure I got the right message from it."
"Let me paint a picture. I was fishing a deep pool in the headwaters of the Chattahoochee River in Georgia. These are heavily fished water, so there are wary fish. There was a nice riffle coming into a pool and leaving it as well. The river went from about 1-foot deep to about 6-feet deep quickly and widened out. So the pool was slow-moving, crystal clear, and had a nice rocky shelf on the bottom for cover. I could see a dozen or more brown trout between 8 and 16 inches throughout the pool. I could only access the pool from the head or the tail because of steep banks and down trees. So, those were my options for presentations. The fish were rising sporadically, sometimes splashing quite a lot."
"I started out at the head of the pool and tied on a size 16 parachute atoms.
I cast into the current several feet in front of the fish and let it drift over them downstream for me to minimize lining them. Several fish came to check out the fly. One even made a rise at it and then rejected it at the last second. I tied down a smaller fly, a size 18 blue-wing olive, and they showed no interest at all. Over the next two hours, I tried everything I could think of, dry droppers, nymph, indicator, tightline nymphs, big flies, little flies, some terrestrials, even a wooly bugger. The biggest fish tended to ignore everything but the dry flies. I only had one real take the whole time, and I missed the hook set. Every time I moved the dry fly at the end of the drift, it actually attracted more fish to the motion, but none of them would take it. I tried twitching the fly, but that didn't work either."
"Strangely, they never acted spooked and continued rising despite all my casting attempts. I think I learned two lessons here. One, I think my main problem was presentations, because the water was so slow and clear, the slightest bit of drag was enough to make them suspicious since. The water was moving so slowly, I don't really know how I could have improved my presentation other than get better at placement with the casting and mending. The smallest dryfly I had in my box was an 18. I only had larger emergers. So I'll also add some 20 and 22s and some smaller emergers just in case the pattern was the problem. But I suspect the real issue was between the rod and the riverbank. Do you think I am drawing the right conclusions here? Can you walk me through how you might approach a slow clear pool with limited access and lots of pressured fish like this?"
"I should have added that I was fishing a 10-foot leader with 6X tippet the whole time. And my access locations were from the bank, so I was casting both straight across and at a 45-degree angle downstream from the bank. That was the best location to see all the fish. I did try going to the bottom of the pool and casting 45 degrees upstream as well, but no luck there either." Well, Matt, that's a tough one. There are some days when fish in heavily pressured rivers are almost uncatchable. Believe me, I've been there. So, you're not alone. What would I have done? Well, you didn't say what was on the water. I mean, the fish were rising, so there must have been something on the water or in the water column.
To me, it sounds like midges, just midges or small mayflies. You know, a size 18 is really not that small in the grand scheme of things. You know, we don't like to fish smaller flies, but I think that there are times when you need them, particularly when the fish are heavily pressured and they know exactly what they want. They're suspicious of most artificial flies. So, I think that yes, drag could have been the issue., you know, you can't always see drag from where you are 30 or 40 feet away, it's sometimes very subtle, and you have to just try to do everything you can to make sure that fly drifts naturally with the current. 10-foot, 6X leader, 6X tippet should have been okay.
Sometimes in very difficult situations like this, trying to get almost directly upstream of the fish and making a reach cast or a slack-line cast so that the fly goes over the fish first or the fly and a little bit of the tippet goes over the fish first can make a difference in fish like that, and I think smaller fly and probably a smaller emerger., you know, it's likely that those fish are eating midges, and fish often key into the emerging pupa during a midge hatch. And they look like they're rising, but they're actually taking something just in the surface film. So, it looks exactly like a rise, but they're kind of selecting for things that are just a little bit below the surface or in the surface film. So, probably a smaller emerger would've worked. A really careful presentation, try to get your fly over the fish first.
You know, the next time you go in the same pool, the situation might be different and the fish might be easier. So, you're probably there in just a very difficult day. I bet it was kind of bright and sunny too. If you had a cloudier day or maybe even a little rain, the fishing might've been easier., you know, that's why we love trout fishing because we keep going back because we have days like this that make us scratch our heads and make us wanna learn more and figure the puzzle out. And sometimes you don't figure the puzzle out. But, you know, the next time you go, I think you'll have better luck. Best I can tell you.
Bill: Hello, Tom. This is Bill Zimmerman fromWaupaca, Wisconsin. I really appreciate your podcast. As I move from freshwater to saltwater, when I get a chance, it's really helping my learning curve. So, I appreciate, you know, listening to podcasts whenever I'm trying something new or doing something different outside of what we do in Wisconsin. My question is about tying [inaudible 00:23:30]. It is my go-to fly. I catch everything on it from large brown trout to pike and smallmouth. I used it in the salt, and have been fortunate to catch stripers and Jack crevalle, Spanish mackerel, redfish, just about anything, as well as salmon in the Pacific Northwest and the Puget Sound.
Anyway, it's my go-to fly. My question is, how do I tie that fly and use some adhesives to prevent the dumbbell from rotating on the hook shank? Seems like whatever I do, you know, I use a lot of Super Glue when I tie the dumbbell on, and after I finish the fly, I'll put some Super Glue on the on the final wraps and on the dumbbell head with the air going over it. So, any tip you could give me about how to prevent the dumbbell from twisting on the hook shank would be appreciated. Thank you very much, Tom. Bye-bye.
Tom: So, Bill, one of the basics of keeping those dumbbell eyes from twisting is that no amount of adhesive on top of the eyes will keep them from twisting. So, you kind of have to think about what you're doing. You're attaching those eyes to the round shank of a hook, right? And if there is anything under those eyes that can slide back and forth or slide to one side, in other words, the base on which you're tying those eyes, then they're gonna twist no matter how much glue you put on top of it. So, here's what I do. First of all, I make a base of thread that's quite a bit longer than where the eyes are gonna go. So, I just wind the thread back and forth and build up a base of thread.
And you don't wanna make it too smooth, you wanna make it kinda rough and bumpy and sloppy, but tight. You wanna put the thread on the hook very tightly. And then put a drop of Super Glue on those winds, making sure that the Super Glue penetrates down through the thread and into the hook shank. Then, while the Super Glue is still wet, carefully place your eyes on top of that thread base, and then do your figure eight or cross wraps. You can do it either way. You can do with a figure eight wind or you can just, you know, cross one way and then cross the other way diagonal wraps. And make sure each wrap is tight, you know, really bare down on those. Using a heavier thread, like a 3/0 or 140 denier is gonna help here.
And then once you finish those cross wraps, and you might have to go, you know, a dozen times or more cross wraps, I guess a dozen is probably about right. Then, what you wanna do to lock those wraps into place is to wind the thread in a circular motion around the base of the eyes. And really, really bear down again with your thread. Don't loosen up at all. And then when you finish that, check the eyes, see if they'll rotate from one side to another. If they still rotate, then I generally do some more cross wraps and some more circular wraps around the base until the eyes just don't move. Now, another thing you could try is to, before you attach the eyes, put that thread on tightly, and then maybe put a little dubbing on a hook.
You just need something that's kind of rough, that'll help hold the eyes. So, you could put just a thin amount of dubbing on the thread and wind that. That might give you a little bit better point of attachment. But I think the important thing is to make sure the eyes don't rotate before you finish the fly. Because once you finish that fly, no amount of glue on top of those thread wraps is going to keep those eyes from rotating. You can put all the glue you want, you can put a pound of glue on top, and they're still gonna rotate. So, you need to figure out that base first so that the thread doesn't slip around the hook shank. So, give that a try and hopefully that'll help.
Here is an email from Andrew from Calgary, Alberta, Canada. "My question is to do with carrying gear while walking the streams. I first had a vest, then tried a hip belt. Now I found a basic sling pack, not a fishing one yet, to see if I like that, instead, before investing in an actual fishing sling pack. I see you use one in videos. So, I'm sure this is all about personal preferences, but I was wondering what your process was to decide what works best for you. Then maybe you could describe how you set it up and what you consider taking. Do you take all your fly boxes or do you determine what you'll most likely need for the location? I just worry, I will not bring what might be needed. Or do you make a fly box that is a good mix? Then I would think you need room for lunch, sunscreen, raincoat, etc. Or does that go in a different pack that you leave a location to come back to?"
Well, Andrew, you're right, everybody has a little bit different system. And I'll tell you my system. When I'm trout fishing on a larger river where I don't know what I'm gonna find in a given day, in other words, a larger river is generally gonna have more hatches, more diverse hatches more variety of conditions. I carry everything. If it's a big trout river and it's a fairly productive river, I'm gonna take all my fly boxes. I try to limit myself to two dry fly boxes, one streamer box, and three slim nymph boxes. But I can put all those in a sling pack. On the other hand, if I'm fishing a small stream, particularly a local small stream, and I know I'm just gonna need, you know, a dozen dry flies and a dozen nymphs, and I know that the fish aren't gonna be very picky, I just need to interest them in something that looks like a bug, I'll just take one fly box and tippet material and fly floats, and I'll just put a bunch of dry flies in nymphs, and maybe a couple streamers in there, and then just wear a hip pack, or even stick that stuff in my pocket.
I do the same thing when I'm carp fishing. I don't need a lot of different stuff when I'm carp fishing. You need a couple spools, a tippet, a box of flies. And snips generally don't need dry fly floating. So, I'll, again, do the same thing, just carry a hip pack. Because I don't wanna carry that heavy sling bag with me if I don't need all that stuff. So, you have to kind of decide what you're gonna do and then figure out from there. I'm like you, I worry that when I get on a trout stream where you never know what you're gonna see or what you're gonna fish, you might fish nymphs or streamers or dries or all of them in one day. I like to have everything with me, so I carry everything. And yeah, my sling bag is heavy but I deal with it.
Regarding the extra stuff like lunch, sunscreen, raincoat, well, you can get small bottles of sunscreen, put it in your sling bag or your pack or whatever. If I think I need a raincoat, I'll generally just wear it, and if I need to take it off, I'll take it off and put it on the bank. I don't carry lunch when I fish, so I don't need to worry about that. I just take a water bottle and a few relatively healthy snacks with me that I can stick in my sling bag. So, that's how I do it. But again, everybody's different. Everybody's gonna have their own way of doing it. You'll figure out what you need for each location.
It is good to have a bigger, either a vest or a sling bag, and a smaller thing depending on what kind of fishing you're gonna do. Here's an email from Evan, from Spokane, Washington. "I'll start with the obligatory thank you, thank you, thank you. I have some questions about stillwater brown trout in the fall. I'm currently up at our lake place in eastern Washington, and I'm struggling. The trout are active as I'll get out, jumping with reckless abandon, swirling into the surface, and even shimmying across the water, similar to a dolphin, and yet I can't get a bite. Last year I had some of the best streamer fishing I've ever had towards beginning to mid-November, where every other cast was a 15-inch-plus trout no matter where I put the fly with very similar conditions other than it was a bit colder."
"Today, however, has not been remotely as rewarding. I am assuming they're spawning or at least getting ready to spawn and have little to no interest in feeding until after they've done their horizontal shuffle. But I refuse to just give up until I know for certain now is not the time. I've tried several streamer patterns and have had a few chases from multiple 15-inch-plus fish, but they only ended up refusing the fly at the last second each time. Should I keep trying different streamer patterns until I can get one to commit? Should I be using other types of flies, or am I simply SOL until a little further into the colder weather? Any guidance on this is greatly appreciated."
"One more little side question as well. I'm curious what effect fog has on fishing. Today has rolled in a quite dense fog, and my expectations would be that it creates nice cover for us fisher humans, so it's easier not to spook these fish. Is that a fair assumption? Thank you again, Tom. You're a fantastic teacher and have helped my passion for fly fishing grow tremendously over the last five years I've been learning." So, Evan, you know, fishing during the spawning run of trout and especially brown trout, it's always a crapshoot. You know, we're not fishing over actual spawning fish on the reds, but we're fishing for fish that are moving and the males are starting to fight over the females. Some days, they're there, some days they aren't. It's not a very predictable situation.
Some days it can be fantastic, as you've found. Some days, they can be incredibly snotty. The thing that I think happened, I'm willing to bet that the day you had where you caught a lot of fish was a darker day. Maybe it was raining or windy and not bright sun. And I'll bet that the day you had trouble catching the fish, it was bright and sunny. You're right, those fish have little interest in feeding. I don't think the streamer pattern is that important. You just need to make them mad and, you know, get something in their face that they wanna get out of there. They get very aggressive towards spawning. I don't think the exact streamer pattern is gonna make that much difference.
I think that probably choosing the right time to go after these fish is a better option. So, you know, if they're really difficult, I would try really early in the morning, just as it gets light or maybe toward dark. Middle of the day can be difficult. The fish, you know, they can see your fly better and they don't seem to be as aggressive in the middle of the day. So, time of day, cloudy day, rainy day would probably be better. And then I wouldn't worry too much about the exact streamer pattern because they're all kind of obnoxious, so you're just trying to get in their face. But sometimes something a little more subtle like a nymph, it's still something that that's kind of getting in their way and they wanna swat it out of the way.
But sometimes a nymph or, you know, even an egg fly, if they're females are releasing some eggs as they're jumping around there, you're probably not fishing over reds because you're fishing in a lake. You know, if you see reds, stay away from them. But, you know, sometimes an egg fly will work or a nymph. I would just keep trying. But I think it's probably just a matter of circumstance. The day that you had trouble with those fish, it was probably a bright sunny day and the fish were just a little bit less likely to swat at a streamer fly. Here is an email from Wayne from Grand Junction, Colorado.
"I've been listening to your podcast for a few months, especially about trout flies. The Tim Flagler interviews are my favorite. Like Mr. Flagler, I developed an allergy to UV resin. When I am in proximity to the fumes, I break out in thousands of tiny blisters on my hands, arm, and face. I would send a photo of what it does to my face, but it would gross you out." Thank you for not doing that, Wayne. "That is not the worst part. If inhaled, it will affect my lungs and I'll develop pneumonia-type symptoms in my lungs. It can keep me bedridden for days at a time. Should any of your listeners start breaking out in just a couple blisters on their fingers after using UV, they should stop using it immediately. The problems will only get worse. A visit to your doctor or a dermatologist would not be a bad idea either."
"I started tying flies over 40 years ago. I watched the era of the beaded fly catch on with the modern fly tar. The first package of beads that I bought were, if memory serves, from Spirit River. I may be wrong about that. Anyway, there were directions on the back of the package, "Slide bead up leader, then attach fly." It wasn't for tying, it was for using with unbeaded flies. After that, I carried beads in a couple sizes and three colors, gold, silver, and brass. I have since added black and an assortment of glass beads, mainly mercury and red. I've since started tying and using more beaded patterns. But every now and then, adding a bead to a bead-less pattern has saved my bacon, especially if I have no beaded versions of that pattern in my fly box. It's also a nifty way to experiment with different color and size beads on a particular pattern."
"Lastly, I heard you mention in a podcast that thread should be replaced every year or two as it gets weak from light. I have to disagree with you on that. I have hundreds of threads. I have amassed many brands and material types ranging from cotton to polyester silk and whatever gel spun is made of. Brands include Uni, Gordon Griffith, UTC, Benecchi, Veevus, Coats & Clark, and a few others I cannot think of at the moment. I've had zero issues with them losing their strength and they're all stored out in the open on a pegboard, but I do not know what I'm doing different than you, our mileage made different on stored threads."
Well, Wayne, thank you for that. And yeah, that UV resin can be particularly nasty. You know, if you do use it, probably best to use it in a well-ventilated place. But even so, it's not an essential glue or material in fly tying. You can get the same effect by using head cements and Super Glue and Sally Hansen's Hard as Nails. All of those have solvents in them and they all could create reactions. But it seems like more people these days are developing a sensitivity to UV resins. It's the kind of the vapor that is formed when you hit them with the light. So, yeah, thank you for your word of caution. And I would advise anybody else if they really like to use those UV resins, just to be very careful with them. Use them in a well-ventilated place. And if you do develop any kind of rash or blisters, stop using it because it's not essential. You don't need it.
Regarding sliding beads on a leader. I remember doing that, and it's a great idea. I don't do it anymore, I just tie beaded flies or unbeaded flies. But that's a good point. You can just slide a bead on a leader and, yeah, it's gonna be a little bit more in front of the hook, but it can work and it can work very well. So, you know, it's definitely worth trying. And thank you for that tip. Regarding threads, I don't know what I'm doing differently from you, but I am really surprised, particularly with silk thread, because I know silk thread breaks down really rapidly. But if you're not having any trouble, I wish I knew what you're doing right and I'm doing wrong. But, you know, regardless, I wouldn't advise people to throw their thread away after a couple years, but I would advise you, before you start tying a fly to check the thread, just pull a little bit off the spool and pull it until it breaks and see how much pressure you can put on it.
I know that I have found some modern threads that have been in my drawer for a while, and when I start tying flies with them, it breaks and then I pull a little bit off the spool and test it and say, "Yeah, this stuff is really weak." So, yeah, it's just a good idea to test your thread before you start tying a fly. But if I ever advised someone to throw away their thread after a couple years, I shouldn't have done that because obviously, it doesn't happen to everybody and doesn't happen with every thread. So, thank you for that.
Brian: Hey, Tom. I just wanted to reach out and say thanks, like everybody else, for the podcast. I'd sent an email a couple of weeks ago with a question that I don't think you've answered as of yet, and I got another one here for you. A couple of questions. I was able to get some enlightenment on my last question by continuing to dive in and binge-listen to your podcast. So, thank you for that. But onto the question. So, the first question that I had is, you say that trout have eyes designed to look up, but anytime I see a trout's eyes, it looks like they're looking down. Now, granted, most of the time, I am looking at a trout's eyes, I'm holding it out of the water. So, are they looking down because they're just saying, "Let me go back home?"
The second question that I have also in regards to trout is regarding the throat pump. To me, this throat pump seems kind of pointless for a couple of reasons. You know, they say the throat pump to see what the trout is eating, but I mean, you obviously caught the trout, so I think it's safe to say you have a pretty good idea of what they're eating. And the second is that you're, you know, emptying their golet of a meal, so isn't that detrimental for the trout that, you know, have to burn calories to get these little bugs and then we just go and, you know, take a handful of bugs out their stomach?
And then the last one is in regards to flies, dry flies. So, when greasing a fly, I know you don't want to, you know, go too crazy with the gel or what have you. But I heard somebody say that you shouldn't put that gel or shouldn't let the grease be on the hook because you don't want that hook to float. And I was just wondering, you know, how much that truly affects the hook. I mean, I would imagine that size of the hook is gonna have something to do with whether or not that gel is gonna make it buoyant and have it float or not, but just kind of wanted your two cents on whether or not, you know, greasing the hook is really gonna make that float or if that'll still, you know, break the surface of the water.
So, those are my questions. Again, you know, thank you for everything that you do. Much appreciated. And keep up the good work. I appreciate everything I've been able to learn through the podcast.
Tom: So, Brian, trout do look up for most of their food. They seldom look down, and it's difficult for them to look down unless they tilt their head. That's the way they're built. They look off to the side and up. What you're seeing is...I remember for a while there was this big thing about the look-down eye behavior. When fish are still alive, they look down when you're releasing them. And if they're dead, their eyes are kind of in the center. And I don't know why they look down when they're still alive, maybe because we got a hook stuck on their jaw and they're not very happy about it. But their eyes do often look down when you bring them in to take the hook out and release them.
And for what reason? I don't know. But their eyes are really designed to...it's the way they're placed, really, is to look up. That's where most of their food comes from, in front of them or above them. Regarding a throat pump. Yeah, you might have caught a fish on a fly, but that might've been a fluke. My philosophy is, you know, to try to catch a fish somehow, maybe on a wooly bugger, and see what they're eating. Because we don't, we don't know for sure, particularly if they're feeding some subsurface. We don't really know what they're eating because most of us don't kill fish anymore. Because in the old days, we'd catch them and we'd slid them open and we'd find out what they've been eating.
But just because you caught fish on one fly doesn't mean you match the hatch or caught a fish on the exact fly that was right. Many of the other fish may not take that same fly. So, I like to know what they're eating. And the only reliable way I know is a throat pump. It's not a stomach pump, it doesn't take food out of their stomach, it takes food out of their throat that they've eaten recently. Yeah, it's not very nice, you've removed a few calories from them. But, you know, we are predators and we choose to release the fish, and I don't think a throat pump does much damage. So, I'm gonna continue to use it. I know a lot of people don't like them. You don't like them, that's fine. You don't like the idea? Don't use them. I still wanna know, because I'm a curious person, I still wanna know exactly what the fish are eating, regardless of what fly I caught him on.
Regarding gel on the hook, I'm not so sure about that. I don't think, when I put a gel float or something on a hook, I don't put it on the hook itself. I mean, the bend and the point, but when I dip a fly in liquid fly floating, or when I dip it in the powder, the hook certainly gets covered. I don't think it matters. You know, the stuff we put on flies is mainly to keep the materials from absorbing water, and a hook is not gonna absorb water. So, I don't think it matters at all. Fish can see the hook all the time, whether it's floating or not floating. And I don't think it's gonna affect the balance of your fly if you get a little gel on the hook. So, I wouldn't worry about it. Somebody who knows differently, let me know. Anyway, that's the Fly Box for this week.
Let's go talk to Charlie about 15 ways you can break a fly rod. So, my guest today is Charlie Robinton. And Charlie is one of the, what, 13 members of our outfitter team?
Charlie: Yeah. That's right.
Tom: And where are you located, Charlie?
Charlie: I am actually out in sunny Cabo San Lucas. I've been living here for about three years.
Tom: So, we like to have outfitter team both on the East and West Coast so we can cover calls earlier and later depending on what time zone you're on. And as you all probably know, the outfitters can answer nearly any question you have about fly fishing, or tackle, or choosing a rod, or a reel, or a line, or all those questions you might have and you need a quick answer, don't send them to the podcast because it may take me weeks before I answer it and you won't be going on a trip. So, call one of these people because they're gonna give you a quick answer. And Charlie, you specialize in rod and reel repairs, right?
Charlie: Yeah. I'm one of our repair specialists. So, basically, we do a few different things, but we act as kind of a liaison between our repair centers and our customers. So, we have a really solid understanding of the repair processes, procedures. And also, we work with customers a lot, so we see a lot of what comes in and get a really good idea of the pain points and where people are having trouble with our products as well.
Tom: Yeah. And probably no surprise to anyone that listens to the podcast that Orvis has a relatively new repair system where our rods are so consistent from one rod to the next in a particular rod model that you don't have to send in a rod for repair anymore. If your rod is registered, and it's easy to do when you buy a rod, then you just fill out a form on the web and you could have your rod back in your new section there in a few days. It'll probably take a little bit longer, but it's possible to have it very, very quickly. So, despite that fact, none of us wanna break a fly rod because it puts that rod out of action for at least a few days.
And Charlie and I thought it would be a good thing to discuss, kind of the non-obvious ways that you can break a fly rod, because we all know car doors, ceiling fans, windows, car windows falling on a rod, running into a brick wall with your rod, I don't know how you'd do that, but there are lots of careless ways to break a fly rod, but there's other ways that are kind of not so obvious. And Charlie's assembled a whole bunch of stories and scenarios. So, Charlie, why don't you take it away? I'm gonna shut up.
Charlie: Sure. Yeah, Tom. I kind of work with our Rod Shop here and the rest of the outfitter team. We do get lots of, as you can imagine with the volume of rods that we sell and have out there in the world of fly fishing that we get lots of them coming back for repair. And our team connects with pretty much every customer that sends in a repair in one way or another. So, we have lots of stories, lots of ways that people break rods. And like you said, there's definitely a bunch of obvious ways that rods break, and then there are some that it can seem like it's coming out of nowhere in a lot of ways, especially for somebody who's newer to fly fishing or using the rod for the first, second, third time, it can come as quite a surprise. But there's lots of things that you can pay attention to that will help you sort of avoid certain behaviors that make it more, what's the word? Make the rod give you more of an opportunity to break the rod, I suppose.
Just to start off, I think some of the most common ways that we see rods getting broken, and I know this has happened to me. Actually, I broke my first Orvis rod in about 10 years just a couple of weeks ago doing this and I knew actually before it happened that it was going to happen almost, but it's over-flexing the rod while fighting a fish or the common term that people use is high sticking, and it almost always happens when you're getting ready to land the fish, you're in the heat of the moment, you've got a big fish on, you're getting it towards the bank, and then you just kind of lift that rod up over your shoulder. The tip is pretty high at that point, and the rod bends like a candy cane and snaps, it breaks.
And that is, I think, one of the most common stories that we hear from customers. And like I just mentioned, it happens to all of us at one point or another, I feel like. And I know not to do that, but you just get a little excited, maybe you got a big fish, and it happens. So, that's one of the big ones. And there's several other...
Tom: Yeah. I don't want people to get the idea that you need to baby a fish with a rod, it's just the angles. You can put a ton of pressure on a fish. It's hard to describe, but it's when you have the tip kind of going straight down along the rod instead of using the entire flex of the rod. And, you know, if you're gonna hold your rod high to land a fish, as long as you don't kind of point the butt of your rod at the fish, in other words, you kinda hold your hand back and extend your hand, you can bring your rod tip back pretty far to land a fish. But it's putting that rod at an acute angle, I guess you'd describe it, to the fish is when they break.
But don't baby a rod. They'll handle it, they'll handle it really well. Just make sure that they're flexing all the way through the rod and down into the butt when you're really putting pressure on them.
Charlie: Yeah. You want to use the power that's in the butt section to fight the fish. So, I think a good way to describe it too is, if you put it into like a casting perspective, a lot of people know that clock, if you're landing your fish and you're moving your rod tip past the 12:00 position to like a 1:00 or 2:00 position, that's where it's in danger of breaking. So, at that point, the rod tip or the rod is pointed back behind your shoulder and the tip is over flexing, turning back around and pointing back at the fish, and that's when it's really, really, you're putting a lot of stress on that rod tip.
Well, what I like to do when I'm landing big fish, especially if I don't have somebody to help me, is I actually just will reach my arm back, like way back behind me, put the front of the rod a couple of feet behind me so I can still point the tip forward and really utilize the power of the rod when I'm leading the fish.
Tom: And this often happens in boats, you know, when a fish is straight down at the side of the boat and somebody lifts the rod straight up, that'll break a tip. I've done it a few times myself.
Charlie: Yeah. Absolutely. So, that's a big one. A couple of other, like similar related ones would be like, you know, when we're talking about overloading a rod, using a rod to free a snag. There's lots of good ways to free a snag if you get one, yanking on the rod is not one of them for sure. It definitely happens, and it also just as almost can be just as frustrating as breaking a rod is getting a snag, especially if you just got a snag or just retied your leader or whatever. So a lot of people, their instinct is to kind of yank on it to get it out, but much better way to handle that situation is like either just see if you can grab the leader and pull on the leader or point the rod right at the snag and pull backwards with a gradual pull until it frees itself. But putting lots of load on the rod when it's attached to a solid object like that is definitely going to risk a break even if you're not like over-flexing.
Tom: And even before you get there, one of the great things to do is to try to roll cast it out. In other words, throw a kind of a quick roll cast and that may push your fly out from behind the snag. And so, one of the worst things to do, if you get a snag, don't immediately pull hard on it, because that's gonna drive that hook deeper. If you get snagged, let up on your pressure and try to roll cast it out, or try to change your angle, weight up or down, or move the boat to try to get it out. And then if all else fails, point the rod at it or put the rod down and pull on the leader.
Charlie: That's a really good point, Tom. Pulling to free the snag and possibly break the tippet or something, that's like the last resort, but try all that other stuff first. Absolutely.
Tom: And sometimes if somebody really yanks hard on a rod and then tries to yank again, sometimes that line can wrap around the tip of the rod and that for sure is gonna break the tip. It's gonna kind of bounce around the tip of the rod. So, you need to be careful there.
Charlie: Yeah. In general, a lot of yanking and aggressive actions with a fly rod, definitely not the greatest idea, that's for sure.
Tom: No. Smooth pressure is definitely better.
Charlie: Smooth pressure. Absolutely. And even, one of the things I like to do, you mentioned changing angles and going upstream, especially when nymphing, if your flies get caught or your split shot or whatever you're using gets caught under rocks, often, you can easily free it if you just wait a little bit upstream, keep your rod low and apply some steady pressure. And that'll just loosen that and pull it right out from under the rocks. So, really good way to free that snag without risking a break.
Tom: Absolutely.
Charlie: Okay. Well, where else should we go here? There's a lot on my list here. One of the other really, I think, mysterious ways the rod can break is in the middle of a cast, in the middle of fighting a fish, when you're not putting a whole lot of pressure, we do see a lot of rods come back where that was kind of the explanation we got was, "Oh, it's just broke while I was fighting a fish." Or, "I was casting one day and my rod just kind of snapped in half and my tip snapped in half." And really, while there's not a great way to determine exactly what happened here, a lot of those types of brakes can be attributed back to damage that occurred on the rod at a previous date, some kind of impact that weakened the graphite structure and then went unnoticed until the rod got an extreme load or a decent load on it and then caused it to debris.
And there's a lot of things that can happen, and I think a lot of them go unnoticed. I know like when I'm fishing, I'm constantly walking through brush and my rod might bang or tick on a thick branch, or sometimes I definitely have noticed that I've set the hook and there was a tree behind me and my rod tip slaps right into it. It doesn't break then, so you're sort of just like, "Oh, it's fine," and you keep fishing. But all those little things do create weak points in the rod that might not show up for a while, but eventually, that's leading to damage. And I think for me, with this one, I still have to kind of go back to, Tom, your original statement of, don't feel like you have to baby the rod. I certainly don't baby mine.
I still do all that stuff and I like to bushwhack, I like to get a good hook-head on a fish. I don't wanna miss my fish. So, once in a while, accidents happen. And I think just recognizing that those types of things can lead to breakages is the key, and hopefully trying to avoid the obvious ones.
Tom: Yeah. And in that situation, I think one of the worst offenders is Clouser Minnows, big beadheads or coneheads. Those things have a lot of mass and you get a wind behind you and your back cast doesn't go as high as you expect, and you come forward and the fly slams against the rod, and it may just tick against the rod and you may hardly notice it, but that impact can pretty severe. And so, you gotta use a lot of care when your fishing flies with a lot of weight on them. Couple of things to do, one is to do a Belgian cast where you come off to the side and then come over the top, kind of make an oval with your cast, and a wider loop will help in that.
And the other thing is when people cast, especially when they get anxious, they tend to push the rod out in front of them to try to get a little more distance. And all that does is brings the rod tip and the leader and the line and the fly forward in the same plane. And it's really easy to avoid. And that is to remember to when you make a forward cast to drop your elbow, and actually even tuck your elbow back a little bit when you're making that forecast, instead of reaching out with a straight arm, keep that arm bent and tuck your elbow back. That will almost always keep that fly above the tip of the rod because you're bringing that rod tip down out of the way of that loop that's going forward. So, something to remember, when you're fishing big flies, it can happen.
Charlie: That's great advice, Tom. I've actually broken one rod that way a long time ago. And it was pretty disappointing at the time because I had just hiked for about an hour downhill to get to the spot that I was fishing. And it broke within a few cast. And I had a spare rod, which is very important, but guess where the spare was, back in my car, about an hour hike back uphill to go get it. And that was exactly... I was living in Washington at the time, doing a lot of fishing on the coast for coho salmon with big Clouser Minnows and that was the rod I was using for all of that.
Immediately that came to my mind, I attributed it to, you know, at some point, I probably hit the fly or the rod with the fly and caused the break there.
Tom: And what's really cool is with every iteration of Orvis rods, when we come out with a new mode, they're always more impact-resistant, and trying to make the rods lighter and more accurate and stronger flex-wise, I know that the rod designers are always looking to maximize that impact resistance. So, with every iteration, the rods get better, they get stronger impact-wise. So that's a good thing. I'm not telling people that it's okay to hit your rod with a Clouser Minnow, but they're gonna survive... They're more likely to survive on a newer rod than they are an older model.
Charlie: Yeah. And I think the little abrasions, like some of the stuff I was talking about, you know, knocking it against a tree or, setting it down and maybe it gets a little scrape on it, those kind of things. Some of my Orvis rods that are 10 years old or more, have lots of little scratches and stuff that make their performing just fine. And I can attribute it to that. I know Sean and the rod team have been really working hard, focusing on those aspects, you know, the strength, the durability, the impact resistance of our rods, and they do a great job.
Tom: Yeah. I know that I was in Denver last year and we were going around doing some presentations of shops and we had a folding table, big heavy folding table in the back of Davis James' van that we were driving around and I stupidly just stuck... We were fishing too, doing a little carp fishing. And I stupidly just put my rod in the back of the van and we turned a corner in the table, fell over, hit the rod squarely. I mean, we stopped and the table was right on top of the rod, both sections, a button and a tip, because I had at least broken it in half. So, I said, "Okay, probably this rod's probably shot."
And put the rod together and I flexed it, flexed it, flexed it, looked pretty good. Proceeded to go out and catch a big harp in heavy water. The rod didn't break. I actually fished with that rod all last season, two trips to Chile, couple of trips out West and around here, and the rod still hasn't broken. So, it survived that. I don't know how it did, but it survived it.
Charlie: Good engineering and maybe a little...
Tom: All right. Some other ways to break a rod.
Charlie: Yeah. So, here's one that I know is gonna be a little controversial. A lot of people aren't happy about this decision by Orvis. But you may notice if you own a current model, Orvis rod produced after around 2020 or 2018 maybe, Helios 3, a new recon, that it doesn't have a hook keeper. And there there's a lot of speculation as to why we did this, but the reason that we got from our rod design team was that we were receiving a very high volume of reports that people were breaking rods while either putting their fly onto the hook keeper or after removing their fly to start fishing, pulling the leader out through the rod tip.
Tom: And pulling it straight down instead of pulling it straight out from the tip.
Charlie: Exactly. Just kind of grabbing the fly, pulling down, flexing that rod tip, and then maybe the butt junction with the fly line gets stuck in the guides or something and causes it to break. So a lot of us, we're just these days...I mean, I know I do this, a whole bunch of guys on the team do this. And for years, even with the hook keeper, we've been wrapping the fly around the back of the reel and up to the first stripping guide which keeps the leader out of the rod tip and also just makes it a little faster and easier to get to fishing, get to your spot or whatever.
And now we're even designing the reels with a rounded radius reel foot, so it doesn't kink the leader or anything. So, for everybody that is unhappy about the bookkeeper, that is why. And we have come up with a pretty good solution to store your fly anyways. And that's what we're all doing. It really works well.
Tom: Yeah. Absolutely. There's nothing worse when you're moving from one spot to the other to have your leader not inside the guides because it takes extra time to pull it out. And if you've already got the fly line outside of the guides, you're ready to go and just makes all the sense in the world to me.
Charlie: Yeah. It saves you a lot of time and frustration. I remember doing it the other way, you know, half the time my leader's getting stuck and I've gotta put my rod down and go and grab it out the tip. So, personally, I definitely prefer having a little extra liter out, having a foot or so of my fly line out the rod tip. And that's what that other storage method affords. Really nice. Really nice. Another one for the newer rods, Euro nymphing, and trout bait, you know, fishing with longer, lighter rods has become very, very popular in the last, I don't know, five or so years, maybe a little longer, and a lot of anglers are doing it for the first time.
I certainly love Euro nymphing. I love our 10-foot rods. I even use them for multi-purpose rods these days instead of 9-foot rods. I own a bunch of 10-foot rods and two-handed rods in the lighter weights, like trout sizes. But we are noticing a lot of breaks that are happening with the, especially like the 10-foot, 3-weights, the lighter Euro rods. And I think I think some of it can be attributed to the fact that a lot of people are learning this technique for the first time, and they may be buying this rod as a second rod in addition to like a 9-foot, 5-weight, something a little shorter and heavier than they're transitioning from.
And it's important to remember that the shorter, heavier rod is a stronger lever, has more power in it. If you grab that 10-foot 3-weight, and you use it the same way that you use your 9-foot, 5-weight, it's possible that you could be over-flexing the rod while fighting a fish. You're more likely to be pointing the rod tip back behind your shoulder when you're landing a fish, doing things with that rod that maybe are kind of stressing it past its breaking point.
Tom: Although, again, it's a matter of angles. You can land a very big fish. I was just talking to...actually doing a podcast with George Daniel, and he talked about catching a couple of muskies and a 10-pound catfish on his 10-foot, 3-weight. So, use the rod properly, keep the angles right, and you can do it.
Charlie: Yeah. Definitely a good point. And I would stress that too, is that the rods are actually incredibly powerful if you're using them with the angles that are designed to be used. Like a 10-foot, 3-weight, 10-foot, 4-weight, it has plenty of power down in the butt section. If you're getting that rod to flex at like a 45-degree angle, something that really loads the rod all the way along its power curve, awesome. You're fighting that fish and it's gonna work out great. It's really getting the wrong angles on the rod. That's absolutely true. Let's see here.
There's a couple more here. I think we discussed kind of the big ones with like holding the rod at the wrong angle, impacts that lead to breaks down the line. A lot of those things are big ones and they're easy behaviors to look out for and change, I feel like. Some of the other stuff that comes through is more about, I think, care for the rod properly, making sure that you're caring for it and maintaining it properly, not storing it in a damp place, that kind of thing. One of the things we do see fairly often is older rods that maybe have been stored in somebody's basement where they got wet, it flooded, or it's just damped down there and the rod, it became moldy, you got some dry rod and that led to the guides rusting or the cork falling apart or something like that.
So, it's good just to be mindful, I think, of where you're storing your rods. Also when you're putting it away, making sure that it's not wet or damp anywhere, it's fully dried off before you put it in the sock or the tube. Because storing it damp like that can lead to a lot of those kind of problems with dry rot, oxidation, adhesives drying out and failing, the real seats falling off, things like that that can seem like a manufacturer's defect when in fact, it really has to do more with the care of the rod.
Tom: Yeah. People worry about environmental conditions, they worry about rain and snow and stuff, and finishes on these modern rods is so good that you really don't have to worry about that as long as you don't lock them up in a rod tube wet. I mean, I have left rods outside in the elements here in Vermont, people know this, I've said this many times, for years, literally years out in the snow and ice and rain. And besides the coat getting a little bleached, nothing happens to the rod as long. As you don't put them away wet, nothing's gonna happen to them.
Charlie: I think we've even had customers call in or email us with rod they found underwater in a river or a lake or something that were in great shape still after however long they were in there. So, absolutely, the rods are built well, and they can handle that kind of stuff, but it's something, like you said, locked inside the rod tube with that moisture and no oxygen to get in there. And I think that's, no, no. That's no good.
Tom: Yeah. One of the things we didn't mention that is common is putting your hand on the rod above the grip when you're trying to land a fish or flying fish.
Charlie: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. You wanna explain why that might lead to a failure, Tom?
Tom: Well, yeah. Rods are made to flex all the way, although they look pretty stiff down in the butt section, they're made to flex all the way down into the grip, and that's the lever that you can use to land a big fish without breaking your tippet or breaking your rod. When you put your hand on the blank, you are eliminating part of the shock-absorbing quality of that rod and it can break. They're not meant to be used that way. And in my advice to someone who needs two hands to land a fish is to maybe do a little more weightlifting and increase your grips. Seriously, increase your grip strength.
Any kind of weightlifting you do is gonna increase your grip strength. And if you can't handle a fish with one hand, you're probably not playing the fish properly, but you may not have enough strength in your hand and you've gotta strengthen it up. It does take a bit to land a big fish, but you gotta keep that other hand off the blank.
Charlie: Yes. Also, a lot of people I notice don't utilize the tools that we give especially with big fish, all of our rods, 6-weight and up have a fighting butt. You can put that fighting butt against your forearm while fighting a fish, so you're not putting all the stress on your wrist. You can also put the fighting butt in your hip or something so that you can get a little more leverage on that fish and hold onto the cork without using your second hand to support the rod. So, use the fighting butt, and even if the rod doesn't have it, I mean, I use it when I'm trout fishing all the time, I really like to stick that butt right into my forearm when I'm fighting a bigger fish and if my wrist is tiring. And that really takes a lot of strain off your wrist. It really helps a lot, in my opinion.
Tom: Good trick. Good trick.
Charlie: A couple more that I realize I didn't mention have to do with the ferals and feral engagement. So, for anyone that's not familiar with rod terminology, the ferals are the sections where the rods join, the male and female section. And those really need to be seated properly. If they become loose or aren't engaged well while the rod is flexing through its power curve, that is no good. It can easily cause like, especially the female feral to crack because that male feral is in there loose and it's moving outside the normal plane that it's supposed to be engaged with the rest of the rod in.
So, a couple things can cause that, one that our Rod Shop pointed out is that when people get new rods from us, all of our rods are pre-waxed from the factory with just kind of a spray-on that's really thin. It can be hard just to see or notice. So, a lot of people, I think, think that they're coming unwaxed and apply a whole bunch of wax onto all the ferals thinking that they're doing a good thing for the rod when in fact what's happening is they're moving that feral engagement a little bit with that thick layer of wax. And that's causing it to be looser than it needs to be and messes with the design of the rod. And it can lead to the ferals coming disengaged while casting and breaking in that area.
The other one is that, I mean, I think, I'm sure you're familiar with this, Tom, I certainly am is that almost all fly rods, while you're casting throughout the day, may come loose a little bit. Some are better than others, especially if you're doing a lot of casting with bigger flies and bigger rods or something like that, the ferals, they can come loose. So, it's a good practice to just every once in a while reach up, make sure they're seated properly, get them in the right place, and then continue fishing. It only takes a second. And I just try, probably every day that I'm fishing, I'll reach up there and just check once in a while, at least a couple of times during my fishing day.
Tom: Yeah. And one of the things I know that Pam from the Rod Shop recommended is one that you offset the feral dot slightly and then twist the sections together. In other words, you don't line up the feral dots and shove the rod together, although I do it most of the time. A better way to do it is to offset them slightly, maybe, I don't know, 10 degrees or something, and twist as you're putting the sections together, twist the rod a little bit so that the dots line up. That will give you a better feral engagement.
I think, what did she say for length of feral engagement that you want? I think she said something like an inch or something, or inch and a half. Do you remember?
Charlie: Let me see what I've got. I've got that right here.
Tom: I remember she said, "All our rods are designed to have X inches of feral engagement."
Charlie: You know what, that must've been in another message. I've got too much wax sequels shallow fit, but I don't see the exact inches, but should be... Most of our rods do fit over like an inch of feral engagement.
Tom: Yeah. I think it's about an inch or a little bit over an inch. So, just make sure that those ferals are securely engaged.
Charlie: Yeah. Very, very important. I like the advice about the... She says a quarter turn here.
Tom: A quarter turn. Okay.
Charlie: One thing I would add is, when folks are doing that is not to grab the rod by the guides when you're doing that. Just hold it by the blank. You can stress the blank at the point of the guides or break the guides if you're trying to put the rod together or take it apart by holding the guides. So that's not a good idea, for sure.
Tom: Yep. And then there is a video that I have on the Orvis Learning Center about if you have a rod that's stuck, if the sections are really tight and you can't get them apart, there's a couple of tricks that you can look up on the Orvis Learning Center about how to unstuck a rod. I'm not gonna go into detail. People can watch the video. It's probably better if they watch the video to see that.
Charlie: Excellent. Is there a page? Can you put links in? You can put a link to the video on the podcast or something like that.
Tom: Not really. I mean, we can in the description while they're listening to it. So, people just go to the Orvis Learning Center and look up how to get a rod unstuck and you'll find it, It's the easiest way to do it.
Charlie: Absolutely. So, that is the totality of the list that I have, those are kind of the most common ways that we've seen rods break, where there's sort of a behavior that you can look for and try to avoid in order to help reduce the chances of breaking, is a big point there. Another thing that like, I definitely would say is that all of us break rods and nobody ever wants to break one. It's always a bummer. But the thing to remember is that the fly rods we designed them to be as light and powerful as possible and the materials that we're using are graphite based. And there's a bit of a tradeoff there.
The rods, as Tom said, every time we come out with an iteration, we try to make them more impact-resistant, stronger flexing. And the issue there is that there's a point where you can't prevent that rod from breaking, I think, and it's just avoiding the behaviors that could lead to that, I think is the main thing.
Tom: Yeah. I know that we were showing some people our rod breakage machine, we have, what do they call it? A client simulation machine in a Rod Shop. And they started out with a design and they would pull the tip back along the butt section with the rod at a 45-degree angle until it broke. Well, they've had to redesign the machine a couple of times because the rods keep getting stronger and the reel seats were exploding instead of the rod breaking and then they couldn't pull the tip far enough to break it. So, they had to put more play into the machine to be able to pull the rod tip back further So, they do get stronger with every iteration.
Charlie: Yeah. I've seen a few demonstrations of that machine and is incredible how much load the rods will handle before they break. And I think one of the things with that too, is that we were talking about before, like the steady progressive load on the rod. If you're fighting a fish at the right angles, you can fight a really big fish on a pretty light rod and the rod's not gonna break. But if you start yanking on it or bending it at a bad angle, that's when the risk happens. It's just paying attention to those little details and improving the way that you fight fish and learning from breakages and things like that, I think make a huge difference.
Tom: Before we end this, let's talk about some of the more unusual ways rods are broken. I remember years ago of someone who had fought off a rattlesnake with a rod and broke the tip.
Charlie: That's a good one. We got a whole list from our outfitter team and from Pam at the Rod Shop with all kinds of crazy stuff.
Tom: Let's hear a few of them.
Charlie: Yeah, absolutely. So, one of my favorites is... Actually, this one's just a picture. And it's a grizzly bear with the cork in his mouth and the rest of the rod kind of hanging off the side, and it just says, "Grizzly ate my fly rods." That one, I think takes it all. There's all kinds of animals, lots of dogs. Keep your fly rods away from your dogs, folks. You don't want them using that as a toy for sure. Now, this particular person's dog also removed the reel and buried it in his backyard. That's a pretty good one. My sister had a puppy long, this was a long time ago when I still lived at my parents' house, and my sister had a puppy we had out in the backyard, and I hung my waders to dry, and the puppy chewed up the feet off my wader. So, I know, it's gonna happen. Keep your stuff away from the dog. What else? Let's see. Did you have any that were funny to you, Tom?
Tom: Well, divorces apparently break a lot of fly rods and we get reports of people that have all their fly rods broken and their spouse in a divorce broke all their rods in spite. So, that can happen. I don't know how you can... I mean, there's many ways you can avoid that, but I'm not gonna go into any recommendations there.
Charlie: The one that caught my eye in particular was the eight complete fly rods that arrived in a shoebox.
Tom: As a result of a divorce, right?
Charlie: Yes, us we called it some kind of relationship conflicts. We all love to fly fish, but if you're in a relationship, you gotta have some balance. Keep your relationship healthy, right?
Tom: Yeah. And keep your fly rods safe somewhere else, right?
Charlie: Yeah, exactly. Maybe get a gun safe or something like that to put them in there. There's some good stories too here. There was one that I was just reading a gentleman was up hiking with his friend in the backcountry for a two or three-day excursion to go fly fishing and sightseeing and stuff. And they ended up stumbling upon a couple of hikers that had been stranded up there, lost their bearings, and fallen down a ravine. And one of them was in really bad shape and they carried the one that needed care out of there. It was about a 24-hour ordeal it sounded like. They carried her out of there, and in the process, somehow the fly rod got, I don't know if somebody fell or what, but the fly rod got shattered in the process. It's an unusual but very heroic story of a fly rod breaking.
Tom: Wow. You do hear of, and this is a caution to people, you do hear of fly rods getting struck by lightning, hopefully not with somebody holding onto them, but apparently, it blows them into a big pile of hair.
Charlie: Yeah. The first image that came to my mind is I've heard of that too, and I see pictures of that, and the graphite just kind of explodes. It kind of strips apart.
Tom: If you're in an electrical storm, other than don't be fishing, stay away from your rod, don't lay it tip up in the air. Lay it on the ground and don't put it right next to you, because you wouldn't think graphite would conduct electricity, but it does. Anybody that's ever touched an electric fence while holding the blank of their rod knows they conduct electricity. So, you need to be careful around electrical storage.
Charlie: I remember a long time ago, I owned several rods. I can't remember if they were fly rods or just conventional rods, but they actually had like a little picture of a lightning bolt and an electrical warning on the rod that said, "Don't use during a storm or whatever." And we clearly don't do that anymore but that's a real danger.
Tom: Yeah, it is. It is. Yep.
Charlie: There's one, speaking of electrics or electricity, there's one where a Roomba ate this guy's rod. He had it sitting in the corner of his living room and I guess the Roomba ran over the leader or something and then just sucked the rest of the rod through. There's pictures and everything.
Tom: Oh, wow.
Charlie: That's pretty unusual.
Tom: Yeah. That's a good one.
Charlie: If I were storing my rod in the living room and had it strung up, I would definitely try to avoid having the leader hanging down where something could get stuck on it.
Tom: Yeah. I think that goes under the list of carelessness.
Charlie: A little bit more attention to paid storage. But we'll blame the Roomba too.
Tom: That's a good one. That's a really good one.
Charlie: Machines are getting more intelligent every day. Terminator's not too far off.
Tom: No.
Charlie: Yeah. Let's see. What else? Anything else?
Tom: No, I can't think of anything else. I think we've covered a lot of the more less obvious ways that you can break a rod.
Charlie: Yeah. I think the screen doors and ceiling fans and car windows and things all go without saying. And sometimes I think rods break and there's not really much we can do about it. Sometimes you zig and a fish ducks or the other way around and it just gets broken. And Pam even mentioned this in her email, there are manufacturing defects that can happen with fly rods, but they're incredibly rare. And the consensus seems to be with the research that I did that they're all very easy to recognize and most, 99.9% of the time they get caught by quality control. A high-quality rod manufacturer will catch them in their quality control before they even go out the door.
Customers usually see them on the rod before they even fish it, or it shows itself on the first trip or the first few casts, something like that. The first time the rod gets loaded with any pressure, that shows up.
Tom: Yeah. It is extremely rare for a defective rod to come out of our shop because it's inspected at so many levels. Every stage of the rod manufacturing process, they're inspected. So, very rare for a defective rod to make it through the end of the line, because although a lot of machines are used to make graphite rods, hands always touch them in between the machines and they're always looking at them. So, it's not like it's an automated process where nobody looks at these things.
Charlie: Yeah. From what I was looking at, the research I did, and talking to people, a lot of those types of things will be very visible too. There'll be a misalignment in the graphite wraps or a dent in the surface of the rod or something that you can easily see in the deck. So, it should certainly be caught in our manufacturing process or quality control inspections before it goes out. Awesome.
Tom: All right, Charlie.
Charlie: Yeah, that's excellent. I think we have a lot to work with here. I think fly rods, they do break, but there's lots we can do to help prevent that from happening.
Tom: Yeah, there are lots of things. And accidents will happen, and that's fine. Accidents will happen with any consumer product you own, things do break due to carelessness or improper use. So, don't baby your fly rods, put them to use...
Charlie: Yeah, don't worry about it.
Tom: ...fish them hard, and they'll last you a long time. And if they don't, we'll fix them.
Charlie: Yeah. That's the other thing, Tom, you mentioned that IPP program that we've got, so we call it the Interchangeable Parts Program. That has been huge for us. It's such a great program. And as long as that piece is available, we ship it out with three-day shipping, it's going to get to our customer as fast as we can possibly get it to them.
Tom: It's an awesome program.
Charlie: It's a really great program.
Tom: Yep. All right, Charlie. Well, I want to thank you for taking the time to prepare all these different ways you can break a rod. Really appreciate that you and Pam and the Rod Shop and the rest of the team sharing their stories with us. That's great stuff. So, thank you.
Charlie: Absolutely, Tom. Anytime. I really appreciate you having me on the podcast.
Tom: All right. And I'll talk to you soon.
Charlie: All right, thank you.
Tom: Thanks, Charlie. Bye-bye.
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at