A Half Century of Fly-Tying Evolution, with Tim Flagler

Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." For those of you who are downloading this podcast as it is fresh, happy New Year. This is the first podcast of 2024. I have a very special guest today. Of course, all my guests are very special, but Tim Flagler is an old friend. And those of you who watch our live monthly tie-offs on YouTube, or Facebook, or Instagram Live, you know that we have a lot of fun together. And today, Tim and I are gonna talk about how fly tying has changed in the past 50 years.
I get this question often, what was it like? What did you have then? How has fly tying changed over the years? And we're mainly gonna talk about the tools and materials, and also the way of transferring information, how they've evolved over the past 50 years. Both of us have been doing this stuff for about 50 years. Myself just a little bit longer than Tim. He's better than I am, but I've been doing it longer. Anyway, I hope you enjoy that. I always enjoy talking to Tim, and I hope you get something out of it.
A few announcements here. Michael, who fishes in the Connecticut River in Long Island Sound, your daughter, Emma, wanted me to wish you a great holiday season. And also, happy birthday to Ben Mayer. Ben fishes the Catskills and the Berkshires. And someone very special asked me to wish Ben a happy birthday. And before we get started in the Fly Box, I just wanted to alert you to a new product coming out. If you need a new pair of waders, you are in luck. Of course, a lot of you probably don't need new waders because you took advantage of the sale on the ultralight waders and boots over the past few months. But there is a new PRO LT wader.
And these are similar in styling to the old ultra lights, but they've been improved with the corduroy fabric that we're using in our PRO Waders. The corduroy fabric has been proven to be incredibly tough and reliable. And these are a bit lighter than the PROs. So, if you want a wader for warmer weather and a little bit more flexible, a little bit more ease of movement, and comfort, these PRO LT waders are gonna be just up your alley. And if they are not available at your Orvis dealer or on the Orvis website or your Orvis store as we speak, they will be available in a few days because I know they're in our warehouse. And they're brand new, and they're ready to be shipped.
These are waders that will convert easily to waist waders. I've been wearing them for a while, and I really love them for anything except... You know, the PRO Waders are still the best wader if you are going to be going through a lot of blackberry or rose bushes along the brush. If you're gonna be sliding down the bank on your butt a lot, or climbing around on rocks where you're really putting waders to the test, then the PROs are the best. But for all other situations, the new PRO LTs are quite tough as well. They're just a little bit lighter than the PROs, and they do convert to waist waders. There's also some PRO LT boots to go with those waders. That's a brand new pair of wading boots. So, I'll let you check those out as soon as they arrive. Try a pair on at your local Orvis dealer or Orvis store.
All right. Enough of the propaganda. Let's do the Fly Box. Fly Box is where you ask questions and I try to answer them, or you share a tip with other listeners that you think they might benefit from. And if you have a question or a comment or a tip to share, you can reach me at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. I read them all, I don't answer them all. And, you know, you can attach a voice file if you like, and I may read it on the air. One of the things I'd like to urge you is, try not to record these voice files in your car.
I know you're maybe stuck in traffic, and you think of something you want to ask me, but the sound quality isn't so good when you record them in a car, unless the car isn't running. If you wanna record it in your car and not in traffic, that's fine, the sound quality will be good. But if you got road noise going on in the background, it doesn't sound so good. And sometimes I have to not run voice files because they were recorded in a car. So, word to the wise. Anyway, the first question is an email from Andrew. "Hi, Tom. I just discovered your podcast today while driving to work. I picked up fly fishing about two years ago, and I'm still learning. My state's game and parks department is hosting a rod-building class at the end of next month."
"As part of the class, we need to purchase a kit to build. And from the emails so far, it looks as though this is up to each individual student. My question is based on where and what I fish, what rod weight and length would be a good compliment to help flesh out my arsenal. I have your basic 9-foot, 5-weight, a 9-foot, 8-weight, as well as a 7 1/2-foot glass, 4-weight for the local trout streams here in the eastern half of Nebraska. Most of what I have opportunities at are what I would consider your typical Midwestern fish, bass, bluegill, crappie, catfish, etc., in local ponds and maybe a creek. There's one lake around me that has northern pike that I would like to catch on the fly, but have yet to have success since I can only fish from shore. What would your recommendation be to help flesh out my arsenal?"
Well, Andrew, that's a pretty good, that's a pretty good arsenal. And you know, the 9-foot, 8-weight should handle the pike that you wanna chase and some of the bigger bass. I would suggest, to round it out, either a 9-foot, 6 or 7-weight. You know, it's gonna give you a little bit more power than that 5-weight. I would use this rod for things like smallmouth bass and panfish, either the 6 or the 7. Some of, you know, the bigger panfish and bass where you're fishing, not huge bass bugs, with the really big bass bugs, you wanna fish your 8-weight, but a 6 or a 7, be a little bit lighter and a little bit more fun with some of the smaller bass and some of the bigger panfish. So, that's what I would suggest. But you do have a pretty good arsenal already.
Jim: Tom, Jim from Kansas here. I've fly-fished for around 25 years, but have kicked it up a notch in retirement. By kicking it up a notch, I mean guided trips in the Rockies for trout. A handful of my buddies have taken to fly fishing as well as myself. We take three-day jaunts into Missouri to fish the stock Missouri Spring Creeks. Colorado is an option for us, but not regularly. My questions are these, one, how does stocked Spring Creeks compare to Colorado and Montana in technique and flies? Two, my buddies have looked at me to get them started in this activity, and I feel it's time to get someone who really knows what they're doing. How do we find a qualified coach? And three, any other thoughts or comments that you might have for my group would be welcome. Thanks so much, Tom, for the help, and thanks to Orvis for sponsoring this. Hope to hear from you soon. Bye.
Tom: Well, Jim, I think that you're gonna find that fishing in those Stockton, Missouri Spring Creeks, it's gonna be a lot like fishing in Colorado tailwaters. I mean, in general, both Spring Creeks and tailwaters have a lot of smaller mayflies and midges. Because your streams are stocked and the Colorado tailwaters that you fish are probably mostly wild fish, the fish might be a little easier in the Missouri Spring Creek, especially the freshly stocked ones. And they might go for anything from an egg pattern to a wooly bugger. But in my experience, after those stocked fish get caught and released a few times and get fished over, they get pretty sophisticated. And so, I think that the tiny flies that you use on the Colorado tailwaters are gonna work quite well. And the same techniques should work quite well in those Missouri Spring Creeks.
You're probably going to have to pare down your indicator in a Spring Creek. You don't want a big bobber plopping on the water as you would in faster current. So, I would suggest that when you fish nymphs, your smaller nymphs, you use a yarn indicator or a very small plastic indicator, or even a dry dropper arrangement because those fish are gonna be probably a little bit spookier. But it shouldn't be that different than fishing in the Colorado tailwaters. Regarding your other question about a qualified coach, man, there are lots of options around these days. Orvis and a lot of fly shops and Orvis stores run schools that you can take. There's some great classes out there, and you can take either a total beginner's class or you can take what's called a Fly Fishing 201 or 301, where you actually go out on the water with an experienced shop employee or Orvis store employee.
If you wanna do some learning online, there's the Orvis Learning Center at howtoflyfish.orvis.com. But, you know, one of the best suggestions I can give you is to hire a guide regardless of where you're fishing. Guides are coaches, and that's what they do for a living. They don't just row you around and show you the fish. A good guide is going to be a great learning experience for you. So, I would pay the money and hire a guide or two or three, depending on how many friends you have. I think that's gonna be your best opportunity for a coaching experience in fly fishing.
All right. Another email. This one's from Nick from Colorado Springs. " I hope this email finds you well. I live in Colorado's front range, and with the onset of cold weather and microscopic midge nymphs, I've found myself planning a DIY salt trip for this summer. Beach fishing for snook in southern Florida seems to be exciting and relatively accessible. Most online resources have repeatedly stated that high summer, June through September, tends to be the best time to catch snook shallow along the beaches. However, Florida's regulations for snook state that there is a closed season from June 1st to August 31st, most of the supposed best snook beach season. So, my question for you is, is this a closed season, strictly all fishing, directly targeting a certain species? Or is it to protect spawning fish? Does it only prohibit catch and keep? Also, have you ever run into fishery regulations that just absolutely perplexed you?"
"I'm sure you have. So, any fun stories out of these? Apologize if this is a mundane question. Well, being a good American, I appreciate the concept of federalism. Sometimes I feel like I need a law degree to navigate all the different fisheries codes." Well, Nick, you're not alone. I need a law degree to navigate my insurance program and deductibles, doing my taxes, and many other things. So, welcome to the real world. Yeah, fisheries regulations can be arcane and they can vary from water to water. And I don't really have any funny stories about those regulations other than you need to make yourself aware of regulations when you go to a new area. As far as snook fishing during the summer. Yeah, snook spawned during the summer and they spawn along sandy beaches, and so they're gonna be in quite shallow and they could be sight fished.
As far as I know, and I've done this during the summer many times, and I've seen lots of people doing it, there's no prohibition against targeting snook. It's just that they don't want those fish harvested during the spawning season. So, I think you're safe. I mean, you might check with the Florida Fish and Game Department to absolutely double-check, and you can do that as well as I can. I don't believe there's any prohibition against catch-and-release snook fishing during the summer. Another email from Jonathan from Erie, Pennsylvania. "I do not consider myself a great saltwater angler as I don't have the correct gear, probably, and I don't get down there often enough. I'll be traveling to Bermuda here in mid to end of January, and have a couple of questions."
"I hear you and others always talk about bonefish permit and tarpon in The Bahamas, Belize, Mexico, etc., but not much out there in terms of Bermuda. Are there fish there? Is January too cold for those fish to be on the flats? I assume it's worth taking an 8-weight down there, which leads me into my next question. I don't have a 9-weight, but I will be getting it at some point. I bought the Pro Salt Water Igniter 9-weight line from you guys when you had the sale. I bought it mainly for the Florida trips when I fished for tarpon and snook. But could I put the 9 on my Clearwater 8-weight to gain a benefit? Is it too front-loaded for delicate fishing, or should I just stick with my standard weight-forward 8 that I'm using on that rod? I feel like overlining it with the igniter would help punch through any wind I might encounter."
Well, Jonathan, first of all, I don't have any information on saltwater fly fishing in Bermuda. As I understand it, the water's quite...you know, it's further north and the water's quite a bit colder than it would be in the, in The Bahamas or in Belize, because it's not in the Caribbean. A quick search that I did shows that they claim to have bonefish and permit and tarpon there, but it didn't look like a really reputable website. I broke my own rule and I did a little web search for you, and I checked with my coworkers in the Orvis adventures department, and they hadn't heard of anything. Now, it is, it is in the middle of the ocean and surrounded by saltwater and it's got to have some kind of saltwater species there. You know, who knows what's gonna be there?
So, I think an 8 or a 9-weight would be great to take with you. And yes, you can put a 9-weight on that Clearwater 8-weight. It's gonna punch into the wind on shorter casts. It's gonna load quicker, and it's gonna punch into the wind better on shorter casts. However, when you get into a really long cast, it's gonna start to falter a little bit on you. So, what I would do if I were you is take both lines, you know, put a bimini twist in your backing, you'll have a loop on the back end of your fly line, and take both lines with you. And if you run into a situation where you need some delicacy, then put the 8-weight on. And if you find yourself out there in deeper water on a windy day, then put the 9-weight on it. You don't even have to take two reels, you can just take that separate line, coil it up, wrap a couple of pipe cleaners around it or something, or rubber bands, and take both lines with you. It doesn't take much extra packing to add another fly line.
John: Hey, Tom, my name is John. I'm calling from Cincinnati, Ohio. I've got a bonefish trip planned for February down in Turks and Caicos. I wonder if you could have a guest on that could give me advice on the equipment to bring, the clothing to wear, and especially the flies to tie and bring along. Thanks.
Tom: So, John, although I haven't fished in Turks and Caicos, I know a lot of people who have, not a lot of people, but some people, and I hear that the bone fishing is really good there. You didn't say if you're gonna hire a guide or not, I would advise that going to any new location like that. But as far as what you're gonna need, here's what I would take on a trip like that. I would get some quick-dry, long-sleeve shirts and long pants, lightweight, you know, nylon or polyester, something that dries really quickly. You know, personally, I don't like shorts or short-sleeved shirts on the flats because then I have to put more sunscreen on. And if I wear long pants, I don't have to worry about my legs burning.
And you might run into some coral or some sharp grass or something on your way to walk into the flats, so long pants are better. You'll want a pair of wading boots, and the best wading boots, if you don't know what you're gonna encounter are the PRO Approach Hikers. And you'll need a pair of neoprene socks to go with those. Don't wear saltwater-wading boots without a neoprene sock because you'll end up blistering your foot and you'll be in real pain. If you're gonna fish from a guide and you just might be jumping in and out of the boat, then you might wanna look at the Christmas Island wading boots. But if you're doing DIY and you don't know how much walking you're gonna be doing, those PRO Approach Hikers are the best footwear.
And then as far as rods, you need you 9-foot, 8-weight with floating line for bonefish. All you need is a floating line. If I were gonna go there, I would take a 10-weight as well, or a 9-weight, but 10 better because you may run into some barracuda, permit, tarpon. And you may wanna a heavier rod. Or even sharks, you may wanna chase some sharks. So, it's always good to have a 10-weight along. For leaders you want for bonefish, you probably want 9-foot 16-pound leaders. And then I would take some 12, 16, and 20-pound tippet in case you need to go lighter or heavier on those leaders. You need a pair of snips. You need good polarized sunglasses. Don't scrimp on that.
A hat with a dark underbrim. You know, the fairly long-brim baseball hats work pretty well. And if it doesn't have a dark underbrim, just take a marker and color it, it'll help you, it'll help eliminate reflections underneath the hat. And then you're probably gonna wanna a buff to protect your face and your neck, or a hoodie. You know, that lightweight shirt could be a hoodie, but a lot of people like buffs. And then a small pair of pliers or forceps to take the hooks out of the bonefish and debarb them. And then a small waist pack to carry stuff. But if you're not taking a lot of flies, you can probably put everything in a pocket. You don't need much for bonefish. You just need, you know, snips, pliers, box of flies, a couple of spools of tippet, and a bottle of water, and you're really good to go.
As far as flies are concerned you can't beat the gotcha anywhere in the Caribbean. The gotcha is probably the number one fly. The gotchas and puglisi spawning shrimp is another great fly in that region. Most importantly, you want these with different-weight eyes. So, you want some that are unweighted or have plastic eyes, you want some that have bead-chain eyes, and you want some for really deep flats and channels with lead or solid metal eyes. Sink rate is really important in bonefish flies, it's more important than pattern. Bonefish are pretty opportunistic, and if you present the fly right and it's... Generally, for there, you wanna a size 4 or 6 fly. And you don't need to go much larger or smaller in that part of the world, but you do need different sink rates. That's super important.
You might want some small crab patterns just to mix it up a little bit, or whatever bonefish flies. You know, look at some bonefish flies online or in a fly shop, and just pick a few that intrigue you, because again, bonefish are not that selective, but it's fun to kind of try different flies. And then finally, if you're going to chase some cudas or sharks, you want some poppers and some large deceivers and some wire because they'll bite you off if you don't have wire. So, you know, if you're dead set on bonefish and you don't need the 10-weight and you don't need the wire or the poppers and deceivers, but you never know if the bonefish are around or not, and probably it's gonna be easier to find some cudas and sharks, and they're an awful lot of fun on a fly rod. So, I wouldn't rule them out on this trip. So, good luck. Hope you have a great trip.
Here's an email from Jason. "Hey, Tom, I am an avid fly fisherman from Southwest Virginia region, and have access to some incredible streams, all within a very reasonable drive from where I currently live. For the most part, I'm a dedicated tight-line nymph fisherman, and absolutely love employing this deadly technique with my 11-foot Blackout rod. First question is this, I would like to pair my Blackout with a Mirage LT reel. Would you suggest a size 2 or 3 model Mirage LT reel to balance out the Blackout rod? My second question is, even though I absolutely love to nymph fish, I also truly love to catch trout on dry flying. And the cutthroat trout are absolutely beautiful to watch take a dry fly."
"I know cutthroat trout are mainly a western species of trout, and was curious to know if cutthroat trout would not thrive here in the Blue Ridge Mountains as it seems that some of our regional spring creeks and tailwaters would be perfect habitat for caddis and all subspecies of that strain to be able to thrive. Would the introduction of this species put too much pressure on our native population of brookies, wild browns, and rainbows, or am I just wrong? I'm thinking that cutthroat would thrive in this region of the country. Looking forward to hearing your opinion on this matter. And thank you for all your knowledge and tips that you provide for people like me that have an insatiable thirst for fly-fishing knowledge." So, Jason, first of all, for that for that 11-foot Blackout, I would go with a Mirage 3. It's gonna balance it better.
You're gonna have to put a lot of backing on that reel just to fill up the spool so that you don't have really tight kinks in your fly line. So, probably, best thing to do would be to call Orvis customer service or use the chat or email Orvis customer service. I don't know exactly how much backing you would wanna put on that reel with a 3-weight line, but it would be probably in the neighborhood of 200 to 250 yards of backing. But the three would balance it better. Regarding cutthroats, it's interesting that for well over a century, people have tried to introduce cutthroats in the Eastern United States, and as far as I know, they have never been able to spawn successfully.
Rainbows will spawn successfully, and so will browns, but cutthroats don't. So, the question of whether they would outcompete the native brookies and wild browns or rainbows is kind of a moot point because they just don't seem to survive. Now, you can find cutthroats in the East. There are a few of them in the north fork of the White River in Arkansas. I know they stock them there and they don't reproduce. And then I remember back 20 years ago or more, maybe 30 years ago, Bob Bachman, who was head of freshwater inland fisheries in Maryland took me to a tailwater, I think it was the north branch of the Potomac, where he had been trying to develop a trout stream there. And he had stocked some cutthroats in there.
I don't know if they're still there. Unless they continued to stock those cutthroats, they won't be there anymore because for whatever reason, they just don't reproduce in the East. And I've never heard of it happening. So, anyway, there are a few places you can catch cutthroats, but not many in the East. Here's an email from Brian from Maine. "I enjoy fishing from a float tube on remote ponds in Northern Maine. The majority of the fish I catch are brook trout. In the 10 to 15-inch range, I would like to buy a new 10-foot, 3 or 4-weight rod for dry fly fishing on these remote ponds. What weight and model Orvis rod would you recommend for this task? Would the same rod be suitable for fishing a dry dropper rig on small streams and rivers also?"
So, Brian, honestly, for fishing on a pond, I would not use a 3 or 4 weight,. I'd use a 5. If you just like the idea of using 3-weight or a 4-weight, then it'll work. But I think that, you know, if you encounter some wind and you need some distance, and particularly if you're gonna start fishing a dry dropper rig, you're gonna be much happier, I think, with a 5-weight. So, you could do with a 4. A 4 would be only if you really wanna do it. I wouldn't recommend a 3-weight, 4 for pond fishing. You're just not gonna get the distance and you're gonna have trouble when it gets windy. So, 4 or 5, preferably 5, for what you're trying to do, I think. And, you know, regarding what series you get, well, that's probably up to you and your budget.
You're generally gonna get a nicer fit and finish in the more expensive rods like the Helios and Recon, and then the Clearwater. And those are also made in USA, and the Clearwater Rod is an imported rod. It's a great rod, but lower price point because it comes from overseas, and is made to Orvis specs. Here's an email from Garrett. "Thank you for all the information you share to help support fly fishing. As a relatively new fly anger angler, I've appreciated the breadth of information available. Recently, I went out to my local creek on a warm day in PA for December at around 45 degrees Fahrenheit. When I got back to the car, I was able to easily find four deer ticks on me. Normally, I would treat hunting clothes with Permethrin to help prevent ticks. I'm a little concerned to treat any fishing gear, though, for fear of harming aquatic life."
"Is there a stream-safe bug or tick spray I could use without possibly contaminating this creek? Especially with winters becoming warmer, the possibility of ticks and Lyme disease is a growing issue in my mind." Well, Garrett, first of all, generally, waders are going to keep ticks away. They can't really grab onto waders very well. You know, I've always worn waders and never had a tick problem walking to and from the river. It's when you wet-wade that you may have a problem. I wouldn't put any kind of insect repellent on waders either. You know, that being said, if you're going through brush, you got your arms exposed and your neck and your hands and so on, so you may get ticks on you. But I wouldn't really worry about getting that in the river because unless you decide to go swimming or wet-wading, which I don't think you're gonna be doing at 45 degrees, you don't really have to worry about getting that in the river.
Probably, the non-Permethrin, non-deep insect repellent, the all-natural insect repellent would be a little bit better if you got them in the water because they're mainly made with essential plant oils. But I don't think you really need to worry about that. Again, unless you're wet-wading or swimming in the water, I don't think you need to worry about the upper part of your body. Here's an email from John from Colorado. "I'd like to learn from you about why the drag on a flywheel is the opposite side from the crank. As a right-handed flyfisher, the rod is in my right hand and I use my left hand to crank in the line. However, I can't see the drag and hope my settings are gonna match the quality of fish I expect to catch. So, when the fish of a lifetime decides to test my equipment and skills, I find it awkward to reach under the rod and reel to adjust the drag or switch the rod to my left hand and adjust the drag. Are there any reels with the drag on the same side as the crank? Are there technical design reasons for having the drag on the opposite side of the crank?"
Well, I had to go to Sean Combs for the technical side of this, our rod and reel designer. Here's Sean's answer. "Good question. A few companies have tried spool side drag adjustments in the past. Biggest issue with that, other than assembly complexity, is the angler has to stick their fingers in the center of the spool during the high revs. This leads to two major issues, hand hits rotating handle, and hand hits rotating spool edges, both resulting in hurt angler and likely lost fish." And then Sean has a note to me, "Salt anglers like yourself, that reel right hand and cast right hand like having drag adjustment accessible to their left hand." That's because I cast right-handed and I reel with my right hand, so I put my rod in my left hand. Anyway.
So, that's a good reason. And I actually should have thought of that, that you don't wanna be putting your fingers anywhere near that spool handle when a fish is running. So, that's the main reason for putting the drag on the opposite side. Here's an email from George from Albuquerque, New Mexico. "I have a question about how warm springs can affect the behavior of fish in winter, especially bass. I have a river that has an influx of spring water that keeps it in the 60s consistently, and a larger river fed by hot springs for a few miles. Does this affect feeding behavior, or is it negligible?" Well, George, I would think both of those situations are probably...in really cold weather are probably gonna be beneficial. Bass will seek out temperatures that are in their comfort range, which, you know, for smallmouth is like 60 to 70 degrees or into the 70s, and large mouths, a little bit warmer.
So, I would say that the fish are gonna gravitate toward those warm springs and probably be congregated in them. Now, the best thing to do, especially with a hot spring, is to take a water temperature, you know, right below where the hot spring comes in, and then keep going downstream to see how it affects the temperature and look for that optimum range for bass. If they're in there, their metabolism should be pretty good and they should be feeding actively. Now, the only thing about hot springs is sometimes they have like sulfur dioxide and some chemicals in them that may put the bass off, or the pH may be off-putting. So, I'm not sure exactly how that's gonna affect them, but I would look for that optimum temperature first, and then see if the bass are there. But they should be feeding if the water temperature is in the optimum range.
Here's an email from Jim from Colorado. "Thanks for sharing all your knowledge over the years. My question is about rod length. Whenever the topic of shorter rods comes up, you express your thoughts on them and how they may not be helping the angler the way they probably thought. I have a 6-foot-6-inch, 2-weight that is a lot of fun. I got it for the small streams near my house. Casting it is like throwing a dart. The accuracy is great and things like side arming to get under overhanging brush is also nice. But when I get to a bigger river and cast at the optimal length of line, as you mentioned, line management is pretty awful. Getting a hook set can be hard as well. So, as fun as this rod is, I see the things that you say about them to be true."
"I'll continue to use it and have fun, but I really don't have the means to try every length until I find the point of diminishing returns. What is a rod length at which you start to see the issue that you do not like? I have seen rod reviewers talk about how a little shorter rod can be more accurate. And if I use this rod as an example, I can see what they're saying. I'm looking for that sweet spot and hope you would weigh in." So, Jim, I would say anything below 8 1/2 or 8-feet long is gonna start to affect your line management, and your hook setting, and your control. That's a good point that shorter rods are often more accurate at short distances. But I think that for the larger rivers, you want at least a 8 and probably 8 1/2-foot. Anything shorter than that is really considered a small stream rod. Now, certainly, there are people that use 7 and 7 1/2-foot rods on larger rivers, but I think they're hindering themselves a little bit. So, I would stick with 8 to 8 1/2-foot.
Matt: Hey, Tom. This is Matt from New Haven, Connecticut. I just got through listening to your last week's episode with Tom McQuain. And I was excited to hear him mention the Mill River because that's one of the rivers I've been fishing in Connecticut quite a bit. And it was just cool to hear him mention that fishing that river while he was doing his graduate degree was some of his favorite memories of fishing. So, it was cool to hear him, you know, hold that river in such high esteem. But I am brand new to New Haven and brand new to New England, for that matter. I just moved here several months ago from the Midwest where I grew up, you know, fly fishing for bass and carp and panfish, and never really had too many trout around me.
You know, there were trout up north, but I was pretty far south. You know, I guess southern Midwest is where you would pin me. So, I'm used to fishing with more of, you know, at least an 8-weight rod. And I was, you know, pretty excited to be moving to New England just because I knew about the opportunities for trout fishing around here. But I'm a little out of my element. I've picked up a 5-weight rod with a floating and a sink tip scientific English frequency lines. And I've, you know, been learning. You know, I've been successful with dry fly fishing just to get some small trout. But my biggest struggle really has been just how much it's rained. And pretty much every time that I have like a day off to go and fish, I've been in full rain gear just because it's been raining fairly steadily.
And a matter of fact, I'm coming back from fishing outing on the Quinnipiac River, and it rained the entire time. I feel like the rain just adds a whole another level of complexity to fishing for trout. The bass that I'm used to fishing for never really seemed to mind it, but here it seems like the rain, you know, kind of turns off the fishing. And I'm not sure if that's because of the weather or if it's because of something that I'm doing. But I've been paying attention to, you know, the trout stream conditions trying to, you know, match the hatch. This time of year, especially when it's raining, I'm not seeing any bugs flying around or in the water, and I'm sure that's because of the rain.
But I'm also, you know, trying other things, so I'll switch to doing something like drifting a San Juan worm under an indicator or I'll try a dry dropper rig. And I've also been trying to fish some smaller streamers, and I really haven't been able to catch many fish. So, I guess my question is, what would you do if you had an afternoon off and you were gonna head out fishing, but it was raining? How would you approach the river with those conditions, especially for this time of year, temps in the mid-40s and rain? Anyways, thanks so much for everything that you do. I really enjoy the podcast. It gets me through the week. And I hope to hear a response from you. Thank you.
Tom: Well, Matt welcome to New England. Last summer and this fall was not the kind of weather pattern we're used to seeing. And like you, I had a lot of trouble with high water. There were times when water was so high that I couldn't fish here in Vermont and in New York and Connecticut and Massachusetts where I typically fish when I'm close to home. Fishing high water is often tougher, and particularly high cold water. You know, during the summertime when you get a rise of water, when the water first rises, starts to rise, the fishing can be really good. And then as the water drops, the fishing can be really good. When it's so high that it's dirty and you can't get a fly to the fish, then it's time to find somewhere else to fish.
Some of the opportunities might be a pond for bass or to go saltwater fishing or to find a little tributary. You know, generally, the small streams that are up in the hills and the mountains will clear much faster because they have a much smaller watershed. And there are wild trout streams in Connecticut, little wild trout streams with wild brook trout. I'm not gonna tell you where they are mainly because I don't know where they are, but I have friends that I know fish for wild brook trout in Connecticut. So, that's an option. You know, this time of year when you get into fall and winter, generally, rain is not a great thing. The water's already cold, and the fact that it's raining means that there's no solar heat getting into the water, thus, you're not gonna see many bugs.
The problem in cold high water is the fish aren't gonna move very far. They're gonna be very inactive, their metabolism is low, and they're not gonna move very far for their food. But your problem is that with the high water, you really can't get your fly easily in front of the fish because they're protected by that fast, high water between you and them, and it's really tough to get a good drift down to those fish. The one thing you might try to do in high water is look into the margins of the stream. Fish will sometimes move into shallow water when the water goes up. But generally, you know, high water and rain this time of year, the fishing just isn't gonna be very good, and you got to be satisfied with one or two fish. The other thing you might try is a streamer, or a nymph if you can get down, but you wanna look for water along the bank or slower water, or where you can actually get your fly to the fish. So, I hope that's helpful.
All right. That is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go have a conversation with Tim Flagler. Well, my guest today is my friend and nemesis, Tim Flagler. I say nemesis, those of you who follow our monthly fly-tying competitions live, competitions online, will know that I'm saying that half-jokingly. But Tim and I are old friends. I think the first time we met, we met over lunch at the New Jersey show and we got so geeky that the lunch went on for hours, and your poor wife, Joan, had to sit there and listen to us geeking out over fly tying.
Tim: I remember that. Yeah, you're exactly right. Yeah, that got a little outta hand.
Tom: As it always does when we get together. So, anyways, Tim, we do this at least once a year, and these podcasts about fly tying are always super, super popular. So, almost the new year. Let's see, people are probably listening to this on New Year's Day.
Tim: Oh, really?
Tom: Yeah.
Tim: Oh, good.
Tom: Yeah. Or the day after, or something. So, this is appropriate.
Tim: Very good. I look forward to it.
Tom: Yeah. Tim and I were hashing over what to talk about, and we thought we would talk about how fly tying has evolved in the past 50 years or so. You know, both of us have been involved in the fly-tying world for about that long, maybe myself a little longer than you, but not that much longer. People always ask, what was it like then? What were the materials like? What were the tools like? Etc. So, I thought we would discuss how these things have evolved. Maybe let's start with how information is transferred about fly tying.
Tim: Well, yeah, I mean, that's probably the biggest change of all, Tom, I think, anyway. When I started, it was books and magazines, and that was about it. And if you were very lucky, you lived near a fly shop maybe, or had a group that could help you out or mentor, you know. I was very lucky personally. I had a couple of great mentors through the years, and they helped me tremendously. But, you know, depending on your geographic location, all sorts of things. Some people had nothing to go on other than books and magazines. I've been kind of preaching it because I'm obviously a video guy and video learning. But, you know, back in the day, a heck of a lot could happen between figure three and figure four.
Tom: Yeah. And the books weren't even that good then. I mean, the black and white halftones were terrible and muddy. Nobody had any good macro lens capabilities. It was tough.
Tim: Yeah. I have the books, I won't name names, but where the publisher, you know, mixed up the description. It was supposed to go with figure four, and it went with figure three. That really sent me... That was chaos in the tying room and trying to figure out what they were saying. Was I wrong? Were they wrong? And it's only going back to it years later that you realize, they just transposed the description for that image.
Tom: You know what drove me to the ultimate frustration, and I'll bet you had a similar experience. There was a book called "The Knoll Guide to Trout Flies," and I think it was originally "The Good Housekeeping Guide to Trout Flies." And Jim Darin wrote it. And I forgot who the illustrator was, but they're all illustrations. And they were and they were beautiful stylized illustrations. And I would get so frustrated that my catskill dry flies didn't look like the ones in that book, because they were absolutely perfect. And of course, they were, because they were drawings, and whoever did the illustrations, obviously, knew how to draw flies and how to tie flies. But it drove me nuts.
Tim: Yeah. Well, gosh, it's like anything, Tom. As time marches on, things change. First, anyway, for me, were those 3M videos that came out on VHS. That was my first real taste of fly tying on video. And further time, I mean, I was already involved in video production at the time when I first saw those. They were just incredible. I mean, it was like... And even now, I haven't played them in years, but that was quality video for back then of really the highest order. And I think that was the very first time I went, "Th my gosh, yeah, this is the way to learn how to tie flies."
Tom: Yeah. I think Scientific Anglers is still paying for those videos. I mean, they spent so much more money on all those films that they made that then they got back in sales.
Tim: Yeah. Yeah.Well, it's too bad. I mean, that was kind of an incredible first start at video.
Tom: Yeah.,it was. Do you remember who did the tying in those videos?
Tim: Gosh, I wanna say that Dave Whitlock tied in some of those , and I think Gary Borger, if I remember correctly.
Tom: Could be.
Tim: Among other people. Again, as a video professional just looking at that back in the day and kind of marveling at the quality that they were getting. I actually remember showing it to the guy that I learned to edit video from, and he was blown away by it. He was like, "That is incredible. Why are they doing it for fly tying? It should be for like brain surgery or something. Why fly tying?" Somebody was very inspired with that effort. That got me going and thinking about it. And then only many years later did I actually start doing the tying videos.
Tom: Yeah. And now of course, we don't need to remind people of this, but the resources they have to tie, I think almost any pattern you want to tie, it's there somewhere with a good tier doing it.
Tim: Yep. And also I, even with tiers that maybe aren't really up to par, they've only been tying for a short period of time, but in a lot of the videos we see, say, on YouTube, there's still stuff to be learned from a video. It might not have the highest production quality, or it may not be the best fly tier, but there's things to be learned, new ways of doing things that you maybe you hadn't thought of.
Tom: The one thing, I think, that has changed as far as information transfer is that real innovations in fly tying may get lost in the crowd. And I remember when Swisher and I think it was Joe Brooks wrote about "Swisher and Richard's No Hackle Flies" it was the early '70s, that was monumental. And, you know, they sold thousands and thousands of books. Orvis couldn't keep flies in stock, no hackle flies. It was just monstrous. It was so revolutionary, dry fly without hackle? And, you know, it was just because of one magazine article just launched that.
Tim: Yep, yep. Well, I can even remember back seeing the first bead heads up here. I think that you might have had some contribution to that one.
Tom: Yeah, I did.
Tim: Yeah. And just being like, you know, "First of all, what is that?" And, "Really, is that how we're going?" And then starting to realize, oh man, there's a lot of potential there. And it went nuts. That went from 0 to 60, quick, fast, and in a hurry.
Tom: Yeah. And I have to say that I can't take credit for developing bead heads. I had seen a video, it was in German, I don't speak German, Roman Moser did, about this brass bead caddis pupa that he fished on the, probably the Traun River. And I thought, "Huh, that looks kind of interesting." And so, we got some beads from Worth Tackle, brass beads, and I started sending them out to guides that I knew in the Western United States and friends. And then I guess I did a magazine article in "Fly Fisherman" on beadheads. So, I kind of brought them to North America, but certainly didn't develop the concept.
Tim: Yeah. I think it was probably that article that I saw, though, back in the day. And I don't think it'd be... I hate to say it because, you know, I still enjoy books and magazines without a doubt, but back in the day when there were quite a few more fly fishing and fly tying magazines available, I mean, I would practically wait by the mailbox for them. It was that big of a deal.
Tom: Yeah. But those magazines didn't even exist when you and I first started tying. There was, you know, "Field Stream," "Outdoor Life" and "Sports afield," pretty much only place you could find any recent information about fly tying.
Tim: Yeah. But then, you know, "Fly Fisherman," "Fly Rod & Reel," "Fly Tyer", all kind of... I'm not really sure the years there that they began to come out, and I was pretty far along, I guess, tying-wise then. And so, was just super interested in any new technique that I could learn. And I'd have like a schedule in my head of when the magazine was due in the mailbox, and when it didn't, you know, if it was a day late, I'd start freaking out, "Why haven't I gotten it?"
Tom: Of course. Now it's like drinking from a fire hose, there's so much information out there. You know, there's a new video every day or two or three a day on fly tying. So, it's difficult to keep up with them.
Tim: Yeah. You know, it's totally international too. There's so much stuff that comes from outside of the United States. Not that it didn't before, but it's just easier access to it now than it used to be.
Tom: Anyway, people have it good these days. They have books, they have magazines, they have videos, they have live streams. They don't know how good they have it.
Tim: Yeah. Anybody who's starting now is getting off-light, as far as I'm concerned.
Tom: Yeah. Let's start with the base. Let's talk about how hooks have changed in the past 50 years, fly-tying hooks.
Tim: Well, I mean, first of all, the number of manufacturers is just increased incredibly, particularly in the last 20 years, I think. And going back, I mean, I was Mustad guy, honestly, I didn't really tie with anything else, that was available to me anyway. Maybe you had Partridge and other hook manufacturers, but for me it was Mustad and, you know, memorizing all the numbers. The model numbers, all their different formats.
Tom: 94840, 3906B, 79580.
Tim: Yeah. And I was just going through some old hooks, 9671s and 9672s, I just dug out some old ones. And that was part of the deal back then. And now, you know, everybody I'm sure still has some favorites and even new brands, and they're memorizing the model numbers for...and can tell, you know, about those hooks, about the bends, whether they're 3X long or 2X long, or 1X heavy, things like that. But, you know, back in the day, there were so fewer hooks and when a barbless hook came out, that was kinda like, "Wow. Actually, I don't have to mash the barb on the thing if I wanna go barbless." Now you have whole series of hooks that are barbless.
Tom: Yeah. And I remember that I did have access to a few Partridge hooks back when they were made in England back in the day. And, you know, Mustad, you're right, Mustad was the standard, you tied on Mustad hooks, period, end of story. And once in a while, you'd be able to get some Partridge hooks. And they were handmade, which sounds cool, but the problem was that with these handmade hooks, I mean, Mustad were made on machine, you know, there were automated machines that cranked them out. And I'm sure there were Japanese hooks in those days, but we didn't have access to them. But the Partridge hooks, you might buy a box of size 22s, and the shank length might vary from like an 18 to a 24 in one box because they were literally handmade and hand-bent. And boy, you know, you had to really pick through them to find the size you wanted. So, that was problematical.
Tim: Yeah. I think the Partridge, I think one of the first fly shops that I really frequented regularly was in Madison, New Jersey. And I think he might have had the Partridge hooks, you know, behind the counter along with the hardy reels. They were that scarce and hard to come by.
Tom: And then of course, chemically sharpened hooks really changed things. And that was probably what, in the '80s, 1980s, 1990s?
Tim: Yeah., '80s, '84, '85 maybe, I think is when I first saw that. And I didn't know what chemically sharpened bend, I had to look that up. Probably went to the library and found facts on file or something to figure out.
Tom: I mean, prior to then they were forged and cut hooks, and Mustad hooks were not always that sharp. They often needed sharpening. And then chemically sharpened, which is basically, as I understand, I mean, I've been to hook factories in Japan, and basically, they put the hook in an acid bath and it eats all around the hook and just brings it to a finer point, and then it's polished. Is that the way you understand it?
Tim: That's pretty much, that's what I heard. I didn't know that it was the entire hook. I just had in my head, you know, that they ran the point somehow through the chemical bath. But it could well be the whole...
Tom: I'm not sure about that because the way hooks are made, they make them in huge, huge batches. So, I think they probably start with a slightly oversized hook with a fine point, and then they put it in the chemical bath.
Tim: And just effectively eroded the thing away until it was pointy. Interesting.
Tom: Yeah. And I think nearly all the hooks you buy now are chemically sharpened, and they're certainly a lot sharper from the box. You almost never need to sharpen a new hook as it comes in the box.
Tim: Yeah. Some of the finishes on them like the black nickel finish, just absolutely gorgeous on a lot of hooks. And all the different point types that you can get particularly the barbless ones, whether they're...well, not too many barbless that are offset, but, you know, with a hook point curving up or, you know, the straight needle point, things like that, longer points, it's just a tremendous variety.
Tom: Yeah. And, you know, in one respect, it's good because you can get nearly any kind of hook you want these days, but in another respect, it's confusing because there are so many options in hooks now.
Tim: Yeah, good and bad, I think there. And when it comes right down to it though, you know, so much depends on how you're tying the fly on the hook too, you know, are you using up the whole shank, for example, and, well, is it a dry fly? Is it a nymph? And a lot of the old geometry, and I think we've talked about this before, a lot of the old geometry was based on things like, you know, for a Catskill dry, it was the geometry that helped that fly to sit on the water surface correctly. And so, a lot of the things like the way hooks are laid out, the idea of, you know, what does 1X long actually mean? And how does that affect the fly? But, you know, if you're tying a dry fly Catskill style, the shank length, and the hook gap or gape, really makes a difference in how that fly's gonna sit on the water with hack length, tail length, all that stuff.
With a parachute-style fly, that kind of goes out the window. You know, you want it to be proportionally okay relative to what the naturals are, but in terms of how it sits on the water surface, no, not so much.
Tom: Yeah. And I don't think that there has ever been a standardization of hooks, you know, what is a size 14 standard shank length? I've never seen that number anywhere in millimeters or inches. And what does 1X long mean?
Tim: Yeah. And I still use it. I still use those terms and everything, but at the same time, does it really matter in the end? And I think it helps when we're communicating or when you go to buy something, you kind of have a vague idea that, well, 1X long or 2X long, that shank is gonna be a little bit longer than others, but what are you comparing it to really? And it gets really wonky, especially if you're just learning, it doesn't make any sense at all.
Tom: No, it doesn't. It doesn't.
Tim: Even size is out the window these days. And I get asked all the time online, you know, "Well, I have this hook, will this hook work instead, you know, for a particular fly that I've tied? And it's real hard to tell.
Tom: Yeah. They'll all work, I think it depends on what you want the fly to look like. I mean, the hook, the hook style can determine the overall character of the fly.
Tim: Yeah. And a lot of that comes down to just straight-up aesthetics too.
Tom: Yeah. Exactly.
Tim: I've tied, let's say just a parachute, I've tied it on one type of dry flight hook, and it looks okay. You tie it on something that maybe a little longer shank or maybe a little shorter shank, and it just takes on a whole new look, the way it lays out and everything like that.
Tom: Yeah. Not right or wrong, just a different aesthetic as you said.
Tim: Yeah. Exactly. And I think that's cool too. I really do. You can have, you know, two people can tie the same pattern basically with a different aesthetic and an overall different feel. And again, one's not right or wrong, you know, but there's definitely style that you can add.
Tom: Yeah. I think people are unfortunately get too hung up on the exact hook style they're supposed to use and, you know, the instructions say one thing and you don't have that hook and you say, "Oh, I can't tie that fly." But you just look through all the hooks you have and find one that has about the same proportions as the hook that person's tying on.
Tim: Yeah. Or you could just go and buy more because it's always fun.
Tom: Yeah. But you can't always find the hook that the person recommends, you know?
Tim: But you can buy six others to see if maybe one of those works.
Tom: Yeah. Right. So, let's talk about thread. Let's talk about how thread has evolved because that's another place where we have so many choices now and we didn't 50 years ago.
Tim: Yeah, it's incredible. I mean, the number of manufacturers now and the types of thread you know, even just the material that they're made out of, with the smaller gel sponges and, you know, whether it's a flat thread that can be corded and unordered say like UTC, or whether it's something more like UNI-Thread, which I don't even know how to describe UNI-Thread really, but more braided, I guess would be the way to describe it. It's got unique characteristics all its own and then all the micro threads which just weren't available, I mean, at all. And I think Adot [SP] Danville for a while was about as good as you could do in terms of small thread, and then other ones, the good Broad [SP] came out, and Sheer.
Tom: As I remember, originally, I mean, nearly everybody tied on Herb Howard Flymaster, which was a Danville product, I believe, and it was pre-waxed. Is that how you started with that thread?
Tim: Yep. But for me, I don't think I saw a spool of the Adot for many years. I mean, it was 6/0, that was pretty much all you got. I still have spools and spools of it. A lot of it's kinda rotted which you gotta be careful with that and breaks real easily. It was a great thread. It still is. My buddy here in New Jersey, great tyer, Mark Roberts, I think he gets Olive 6/0 Danville by the case, pretty much all he uses.
Tom: Yeah. And I had heard Danville went out of business or stopped making fly-tying thread for a while, but I believe they're making it again.
Tim: Yeah. Well, I know you can buy it new. I don't know whether it's past inventory or what, but they're still available.
Tom: I remember... No, you go ahead.
Tim: No, I was gonna say, some of the threads that are available now for the size that they are, you just can't even believe how much fresher you can put on them before they break and how much grip and power they have to hold materials on a hook., to the point where there's some that, you know, are gonna cut through like, you know, Deer Belly Hair, for example. You crank down on them and all of a sudden you've cut through that wad of deer hair, and you just go, "That's incredible." Hot night through butter, that bad.
Tom: I remember at one time getting some really fine silk thread, it was probably about 10/0, and it had a wonderful texture. It really held on the materials well, and it wasn't super strong, but you could tie with it. And I got a whole bunch of it, and then I realized that if you look sideways at it, it would deteriorate. And I had to end up throwing it all away because it didn't last very long. So, that was the end of my love affair with silk fly tank thread. It was really nice stuff, but, you know, it didn't last, it rotted really, really quickly.
Tim: Well, I have rough hands and so my love affair with silk ended before it even started, one spool, and it looked like a cat had gotten it. My fingers just tear it apart for some reason, I don't know what, but...
Tom: But the people aren't missing anything by not having silk fly tank thread, believe me.
Tim: Yeah. And it's an incredible thing is that some people still, they insist on it, you know, that a pattern isn't correct unless it's tied with silk. And I can understand, you know, that's the way it was originally tied by their person who originated. And if you want to stick to that, that's good, but in terms of, you know, just simply tying the fly, wow, first of all, silk can be hard to get and then hard to work with as well.
Tom: Yeah. And how about hackle? Of course, hackle used to be so much more important, dry hackle at least, used to be so much more important and we couldn't get any good hackle. And now, there's hackle everywhere, incredible quality, but we don't use it as much, is kind of an interesting situation. So, you know, back in the '60s, '70s, you had two choices. You'd buy Indian capes, which were imported from India, they were just food chickens that they would kill and skin in India, and then they'd send the skins in great big crates to the States. And I remember my early days at Orvis, we had to fumigate those when they came in.
Tim: I bet you did.
Tom: And fumigating them was basically putting them in a vat of formaldehyde, which is this horrible chemical that's now, I think OSHA, I think doesn't let anyone use it for anything. And then they had to be dried out and laid out on newspaper with a whole bunch of fans running on them. Oh, it was a mess. And the feathers were terrible. When you tied a size, they were short, the hackles were really stiff, but they were super short. And, you know, for a size 14 drive fly, if you were gonna tie like a wolf, you had to use four hackles for one fly.
Tim: I still have a few of those laying around. And then you used to be able to get the grab bag hackle, you know, at stores that have like six of those weird little necks in them, and hit or miss.
Tom: Oh, I still have a bunch of them too.
Tim: I remember getting my...it was very early on in my relationship with Joan, my wife, and just after college and I didn't have a whole lot of money, but I was, you know, real into fly tying and I remember driving I think a couple of hours to go to a fly tying shop, and I got a Metz Neck. I still have it. It's a kind of a Rusty Brown. It's all but pick clean. And I think I paid... Even, I mean, back then, it was a lot of money, but I think it was over $40. I mean, so much they cost back then, there just weren't that many of them. And brought it back, and her father said, "You know, where'd you go?" And I said, "I went to a fly shop."
Anyway, I showed that he wanted to see it, so I showed it to him. And I really didn't think he...I thought he was gonna end Joan's and my relationship right there, that I'd spent that much money on this thing of feathers. He really thought I was out of my mind. I was so proud of that thing. I tied every dry fly imaginable that used Rusty Brown hackle.
Tom: And then, you know, I mean, if you were lucky enough to know Harry Darby, or there were a few people that were raising chickens for flying, Harry Darby was one, and Bill Tobin in upstate New York, who's not as well-known as some of the rest of them who I knew. And then Henry Hoffman and Andy Miner in the Midwest. You know, those guys were growing some incredible hackle, but, you know, you had to know somebody. You had to know a guy to get one of those capes. And they still weren't as good as what we can buy now from, you know, from Hoffman or Whiting or Keough or, you know, there's actually a bunch of new ones coming out now that are raising hackles.
And the hackles are...you know, if I had seen back in 1975, if I had seen a grizzly hackle that would tie like eight flies, I think I would've had a heart attack.
Tim: Yeah. Well, you know, it's not just dry flies either, in fly time demonstrations, I tie, it's kind of a bully bugger variant. And every time I tie it, I think back to when I couldn't get these beautiful long saddle hackles and others. You know, that layout, you know, even the size 14, say, Woolly Bugger. And back in the day, you just get these nasty strung saddles and, you know, they were maybe appropriate for a size two hook or something and trying to make a Wooly Bugger and hackle fibers that were an inch and a half long, it looked ridiculous.
Tom: Oh, yeah. I mean, I still have some old packages that are probably back from the late '70s of Orvis Select Saddle Hackle It's horrible. I don't know, you couldn't really tie streamers with it because it wasn't the right shape, and you couldn't tie Woolly Bugger. Of course, Woolly Buggers weren't even popular then, Woolly worms, I guess. And, you know, the other thing is that the availability of hen capes now and hen saddles, nobody used to use hen in the old days, or there probably were a few people that knew the value of tying, you know, a soft tackle with a hen hackle or a nymph or something. But generally, we just used junkie, dryly hackle for wets and nymphs. We didn't have hen hackle available, nobody was killing him and skinning them and selling them.
Tim: Now some of the hen hackle is just, oh, it's gorgeous stuff, and gets small too. You can tie small, small flies with it.
Tom: I mean, that's something,
Tim: But, you know, there's sacrifices though, Tom. I mean, think of it for like tailing material. We've ended up kinda losing that. I know you can get it in certain places, but a lot of those spade feathers like we used to call them, they're being bred out of the birds in favor of the longer smaller fiber feathers. And so, we've lost some of those stiff long straight fibers out by the edges.
Tom: Yeah. I think in the day of, you know, the era of the Catskill dry fly, the test of a good dry fly remember was to put it on your lips, and if it was really sharp and prickly, you know, it was a stiff hackle, and that would be a good floating dry fly. I think it's more about the density of the fibers than it really is about the stiffness to float a fly. And I think we've got much better... I mean, the hackles then were stiffer. They were really stiff.
Tim: Yeah, but so were the stems too. That was the other one that to me has changed a lot. It is how supple and easier to tie the stems are. I still have a couple of necks and quality necks that I paid a lot of money for back in the day that every single feather on there, you have to wrestle with it to get it to wrap correctly. I don't know what's wrong with the stems, but they're just a nightmare. When I was learning, huge source of frustration, you know, spent good money, and you could not, and I still can't. I've gone back and tried and going, "Oh, so it wasn't me. It was this particular neck."
Tom: I think the stems were too thick. And what would happen is when you would wind a hackle on a dry fly, that stem would take up so much space on the hook shank that the fibers would get, you know, pushed all one way or the other because you were winding on top of a thick stem. I think that's why they're so difficult to work with. Now the stems are so fine that you don't have that bulk when you're winding, particularly with a saddle aisle, because you don't have that bulk when you're winding.
Tim: Again, people these days are getting off light, well, maybe not light with you know, some of the prices that capes and saddles are going for these days. I think pretty obviously being purchased for collections, you know, not being used. And, you know, that's kind of a drawback rather than something positive, I think.
Tom: Yeah. And let's talk about, you know, one of the biggest changes in fly tying has been the advent of synthetics. I mean, what did we have back in the '70s for synthetics? We had Rayon floss. Of course, the thread was synthetic. We had Rayon floss, I guess cotton chenille would be... I don't know, that's not really a synthetic because it's cotton. Chenille was all cotton then. We didn't have Mylar. I remember when that first came out, we didn't have any kind of Mylar, we used metal tinsel, French tinsel that would tarnish and it was heavy and stiff.
Tim: Well, and the other one, it kind of relates to it is wire. I kind of preached this, that things like the UTC, the ultra-wire just changed my fly time life. I used to take apart little electric motors, telephones, and strip the copper wire out of it. Sometimes it'd be great, other times you'd tie the flies, you'd never even use them. Open your box a week later and everything was green with corrosion and just disgusting and breaking apart.
Tom: Yeah. And you had the color choice of copper or copper, or maybe copper.
Tim: And some of the wire, it just didn't bend the way modern wire does You'd wrap a rib on the fly and just release the tension for a microsecond. The whole thing would unwind. Not fun at all.
Tom: I remember when polypropylene first came out, and I think Switcher and Richards were the ones who popularized using polypropylene because it was lighter than water. It floated. And everybody thought, "Oh God, this is cool." And I remember people buying spools of polypropylene yarn and trying to wind it on a fly body like floss. And of course, once you wound it on a hook, you lost really most of the floating qualities because of compressing. And it looked horrible. I mean, it looked just terrible.
Tim: It just changed, no doubt.
Tom: Do you remember the sheets of polypropylene that were sold for dubbing and it came in like...it was like a dryer sheet, and you had to pull the sheets apart and then tease out all the fibers to make dubbing out of it? I still have some of it.
Tim: Oh, I never did that one.
Tom: Oh God.
Tim: Wow.
Tom: That was awful stuff. And now we've got, you know, God, again, the variety of dubbings from natural first to all kinds of synthetics with sparkles in them, and the colors we have. I mean, back then we used fur. We used fur because Art Flick said in his "Streamside Guide" that wool was not a good material for dry flies because it didn't float very well. I think he was wrong there. I think wool floats pretty well because it holds floating really well. But anyway, nobody used wool on dry flies because it didn't float, Art Flick said it didn't.
Tim: One guy said it didn't float.
Tom: man. And so, you know, everybody tied with, you know, rabbit, muskrat, hare's ear, Australian possum, which we still use and is still great stuff.
Tim: I mean, that's an interesting thing too, I think, I kind of marvel at it, is that so much of fly tying is the use of technically ancient materials. They were the only materials that were available tyers back in the day and we still use them every single day, tying flies. I mean, how many other things rely on bird feathers and animal skins in this day and age? They're just not many. They've almost all been replaced with synthetics in one way or another.
Tom: Yeah. You know, there's some things that synthetics aren't gonna replace, deer hair for one, you know. There's lots of substitutes out there, but they don't look like deer hair and they don't behave like deer hair.
Tim: Well, I don't mean to go off on a rant, but there's something to be said about, we're in streams and stream banks, we're putting natural materials back, is a good thing as opposed to a whole bunch of synthetics, they don't degrade in the environment the way natural products do.
Tom: Yeah. And we're still using peacock hurl, which, you know, there's some synthetics that get pretty close, but they still don't have the same look as peacock curl. It's pretty amazing stuff. pretty amazing stuff.
Tim: No. And I think the fine dark markings that are in many, many products from animals, that natural coloration. And I think it means a lot. I really do. I think that fish trout in particular, can see those find dark markings and go, "That's something living, that's something natural. It's protein. It's valuable to me nutritionally." And those markings are hard if not impossible to duplicate, you know, outside of nature.
Tom: You're right. I mean, hair and fur and hackle is protein and maybe there's something in those materials that trout can recognize.
Tim: I absolutely believe it. And you know, you look at the materials that have been used and we know have been effective literally for centuries, and they all have those markings in them, Hungarian partridge and woodcock. You know, my kind of recent favorite is pine squirrel, and pine squirrel just has markings that are so similar to many bait fish and bugs that trout feed on. And I think they can pick that out. And it's one of those things that helps them to differentiate between something that's detritus and has no nutritional value in something that's living in protein, valuable to them.
Tom: That's a good point. That's a good point. Well, what else? Oh, I guess we could talk about tools a little bit because, you know, the tools have evolved considerably. I mean, I'm sure you started tying on a Thompson A Vise, right?
Tim: Actually, I was a little later than the Thompson A.
Tom: Oh, okay.
Tim: I have one. I had a... Oh gosh, I'm not even sure what brand it was. Like many people, I'd been tying for a little bit, but got a kit for Christmas. I'm not even sure who it was, that had a terrible vise in it, but tied on that for a long time. And then I got an Orvis vise, a really kind of cool one that I still have. And it actually had a weird little thing that you could had indents in it so you could turn it at 90 degrees going, you know, four stops, 90 degrees, going all the way around. A really good little vise, held hook very well.
Tom: That was the Orvis Baetis vise, right?
Tim: I'm not sure about that, what the name was. And I tied that for many years before it broke down. And then the vises came fast and furious after that.
Tom: Yeah. And they're beautiful. I mean, I started on a Thompson A, and in those days, of course, none of the vises were rotary. So, you couldn't rotate a fly in the vise, you had to take it out and turn it around and look at it. And I would break a set of jaws every couple of months because I was tying professionally when I was a teenager, and I would break... I was probably too impatient, jamming things in there, but I would break jaws left and right and there were no pedestal vises. You had to find a table where that would fit your sea clamp. And oh my God, now, the vises are, man, they're so nice.
Tim: Yeah. One of the guys who taught me how to tie flies way back in the day when he passed away, I got his Thompson. And so, it's just kind of a special, special thing. I've tied with it a few times, but just good mojo to have up in the cabinet.
Tom: Oh, Yeah. It's a real collector's item.
Tim: And it still holds hooks just remarkably well, incredibly wealthy for what it is.
Tom: But it wasn't rotary, there wasn't a pedestal. And of course, in those days, nobody had plunger-style hackle pliers.
Tim: Which I don't know how they'd live without, I don't know how I applied without them.
Tom: And then, do you remember the Thompson whip finisher?
Tim: I think so. Was that the wire one?
Tom: Yeah, that was it. It would work totally different than the whip finishers we use today, but I used it for many, many years, and I still pull it out once in a while and use it. It's a really good whip finisher, but it's totally different design. The design that we use today was developed by a guy named Frank Matarelli, who I think, I think he was a machinist. I think he was from California and would spend the summers in West Yellowstone. And a friend of mine knew him, a friend of mine that was guiding out there knew him. And, you know, he also, not only did develop the whip finisher that we use today, but he developed the style of bobbin with just the spring, you know, the standard bobbin with the two little... I know you don't use one, you use that right bobbin, but a kind of the standard wire bobbin that we use today that was for years called the Matarelli-style Bobbin.
Tim: Really?
Tom: Yeah. And he developed that. And in fact, I still have a bobbin that has FM stamped on one of the side pieces. And that's kind of a treasured item. But somebody should do a biography of him because he really changed fly-tying tools a lot.
Tim: Well, I tie with my whip finish tool which I've had forever, is a true Matarelli. And I have gotten knockoffs. And I'm telling you, I can pick one of the knockoffs up and know instantly that it's not my Matarelli. And it's the geometry of the thing just absolutely works for me, the original one. And I have a hard time with finishing with anything else. I can do it of course, but it's not as comfortable.
Tom: Yeah. Somebody should duplicate that exactly, all the dimensions, because it really worked. He spent a lot of time perfecting that, I'm sure.
Tim: Yeah. Nothing like the original.
Tom: Yeah, us old folks.
Tim: And you'd mentioned bobbin too, I am a huge bobbin fan. I like to be able to adjust tension on them and they just work for me. And they're also because they're available in different lengths with different tube styles, different tube compositions, things like that, I can use them over a range of flies, which, you know, back in the day, you had the Jaegudo [SP] bobbins. I don't know whether you remember them. They were...
Tom: Oh, yeah. With the big metal pieces on the side?
Tim: Yeah. Usually, they were spheres, big brass spheres. Let's go with that. And I did a video using one of those a few years ago, and people were like, "Where did you get that?" I've had it forever. And there's some of the bobbins now are gosh, expensive and do all sorts of crazy stuff.
Tom: They're beautiful. Some of them are beautiful pieces of work. They really are.
Tim: Hundred bucks a throw.
Tom: And scissors. I think our scissors are better now, although I'm sure that you know, there's always been really good high-quality scissors out there. I don't think we used them back then, but I don't think scissors have changed very much, do you? Other than the micro serrations on the scissors?
Tim: Yeah, the micro serrations. And I remember, my mom was needlepoint. She loved doing needlepoint and she had good German scissors back in the day. You know, mine get a little dull from the fly shop and sneak into her little sewing basket there and enjoy a couple of hours of fly tying dulling her very then very expensive needlepoint scissors. And that is a big thing, dull scissors are terrible, terrible, terrible.
Tom: Most people don't realize what a good pair of scissors will do. And I think that you go into most fly shops... You know, I finally talked Orvis into selling the copter scissors, which I think are best scissors I've ever used. But you go into a fly shop these days and you still see the same old, fairly cheap scissors, even in a good fly shop that sells a lot of different fly-tying materials, the scissor selection is still not what it could be, I don't think.
Tim: Well, Orvis, I still have two pairs of...I think I was gonna send you one of them at one time, but they for a number of years had the best scissors. And they were black, they had very, very fine points on them and a slight curve backed by the finger holes.
Tom: Yeah. They were Japanese. They were Japanese. I remember those.
Tim: Yeah. And then they just disappeared, and I was crushed. I have two pairs still. They're both unfortunately dull. And I have not been able to bring them back to life, but those things fit my hand so perfectly. It's just ridiculous. And it's one of those things, you finally find something that works so well for you and then it gets discontinued.
Tom: It happens sometimes. That's progress sometimes.
Tim: Well, we should also probably talk about one of your favorite fly-tying materials. I know, Tom, not painter's tape but adhesives.
Tom: Oh, yeah, adhesives.
Tim: Because that's another biggie that over the years we've kind of cycled through. And some of them have gone away for a time and then come back, like Pliobond, and Softex is another one, did different things. And then the old-fashioned, Head Cement. And as you probably know, I'm a Sally Hansen, I'm a nail polish guy now.
Tom: Yeah. And the UV resins that we have now and the super glues which are pretty handy. Back in those days, you had Head Cement which was pretty much the same as it is now. And some people would use Varnish, would use spar varnish. I remember when I tied Atlantic salmon flies commercially, I was required for those flies to use spar varnish. And it took forever for those heads to dry. But the spar varnish would stay flexible and it would really penetrate into the heads so that the flies wouldn't fall apart, beautiful finish, but God, it took forever for the stuff to dry, and it was tough to work with.
Tim: I think there's some salmon fly guys that still insist on spar varnish for the flies. And you know, I know there are people that are like, "Oh, I'd never tie with UV. That's, you know, it's ruin fly tying, now it's fly gluing," things like that. But, you know, I guarantee you that many of the old-timers, they were practical guys, and if it had been available back then, they probably would've at least given it a shot.
Tom: Oh yeah. Because those guys were younger then, and they're old now, and they're embracing most of them, except if you're tying traditional salmon flies or Catskill dry flies, but, you know, people are embracing all these new improvements. They're fun.
Tim: Most people are.
Tom: Yeah. They're fun to experiment with. They're fun to use. Not all of them are better than what we've used before, but, you know, it's fun to try them.
Tim: Absolutely. And, you know, there'll be new ones coming every day, I'm sure.
Tom: That's a cool thing about fly tying, is it just keeps improving and innovating and, you know, God, there's just endless ways to recreate a minnow or an insect and people are...
Tim: But at the same time, we're also still retaining that old stuff. You know, using feathers and furs, which is, again, a really unique part of fly tying for me. I just think that those ancient materials and older methods are really interesting. They are valuable.
Tom: Yeah. And they're still very effective too.
Tim: Yeah. Absolutely. Agree.
Tom: All right, Mr. Flagler. Well, I've wasted an hour of your time.
Tim: No, no, that was productive. You brought up a couple of things I haven't thought of in years that are just right on the very edge of tipping off the memory cliff.
Tom: Well, it's fun to talk about that stuff, and it's fun to talk about the new stuff and, you know, as we said, you and I could go on and on for hours talking fly tying. So, we'll spare the listeners any more of our old man ramblings geeking out.
Tim: Back in my day, it was uphill both ways to the fly shop.
Tom: Anyways, if you're fly tyer and you're stuck in the traditional ways, I would urge you to broaden your horizons a little bit and keep an open mind.
Tim: I think most people that, you know, are kind of stuck, they're secretly trying the new stuff. They don't talk about it, but they've got that brand-new UV torch that they're using.
Tom: When nobody's looking, right?
Tim: Yeah. Exactly.
Tom: All right, Tim. Well, I want to...
Tim: All right, Tom. Well, that was fun.
Tom: I wanna thank you for coming on. I know people are gonna enjoy this. I don't know why they wanna listen to you and me ramble, but they seem to enjoy it.
Tim: I don't know either, history.
Tom: We will have a fly-tying tie-off soon, which you usually win, so, you know. But I try my best.
Tim: That's all we can ever do, Tom.
Tom: All right, Tim. Well, thanks again. We've been talking to Tim Flagler who was the 2021 Fly Tyer of the Year.
Tim: 2022.
Tom: 2022 Fly Tyer of the Year for "Fly Tyer" magazine. That's quite an honor, and you deserve it.
Tim: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. And have a happy and healthy New Year, everybody. And hopefully, we'll see you on the water. Thanks, Tom.
Tom: Thanks, Tim. Bye-bye.
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast," with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. in the body of an email or as a voice attachment. You can find more free fishing tips at howtoflyfish.orvis.com.