How Fly Rods Are Developed, with Shawn Combs
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer and my guest this week is my friend, and fishing buddy and Orvis rod and reel designer, Shawn Combs. And I get a lot of questions about how are fly rods developed. How do you develop a new taper? How is it made? How are they tested? [00:00:30.132] And we're going to use the example of the new fourth generation of Helios rods as an example of how a new fly rod series is developed and then how individual models are developed. So I hope this answers a lot of your questions about this mysterious world of fly rod design. Shawn's always a fun interview and I think you'll enjoy it.
But first, we're gonna do the Fly Box. [00:01:00.431] And this is a short Fly Box this week, another short one, because I'm doing this three weeks ahead of time because I'm gonna be traveling a bit and not going to be able to record podcasts. But I wanted to make sure that you had a new, fresh podcast while I'm gone instead of doing repeat or backcast episode, as we call it. So short Fly Box. if you have a question for there Fly Box, and by the time you hear this, I'll be back in town so I'll be able to read your question, [00:01:30.418] you can send it to me at
The first one is an email from Jim. First off, let me tell you the wonders a wading staff could do for you. Ha ha, just kidding. Yeah. I've gotten the message, guys, on the wading staff thing. [00:02:00.332] So my question is about the action of fiberglass fly rods, specifically at the hook set. I've noticed that I seem to have fewer hookups when using a glass rod. I don't feel like I set the hook entirely different from other rods, and in most cases, have the fish on for a short time. This has made me question if the slower action of the rod causes less energy transfer to the hook set. Thanks for the show and information.
So Jim, yeah, that is true. [00:02:30.240] Fiberglass rods are a little bit slower. Graphite rods, and I assume you're referring to graphite rods as the other rods that you use, transfer energy very quickly and very efficiently. Fiberglass rods are a little bit slower and a little bit slower to react. So yes, you do have to set the hook a little bit more firmly with a fiberglass rod than you do with a graphite rod. Of course, assuming that you've checked your hook points [00:03:00.947] to make sure that they're sharp and all the other things that we need to do. You know, try not to fish straight downstream because that's a tough hook set. But yeah, you do want to put a little bit more oomph behind a hook set with a glass rod, depending on the model, of course.
Daden: Hi, Tom. This is Daden calling from southeast Idaho. I've been fly fishing for a few years now and thanks to a couple good friends and this podcast, I've had a lot of success. You and Orvis do an amazing job at helping all of us [00:03:30.541] enjoy this beautiful pastime a lot more. So huge thanks as always. I'm taking a trip to Cozumel, Mexico with my family early in March and was wondering if you know anything about the area or had any suggestions on gear, where to fish and possibly some flies. I'm a fairly experienced tier as well and prefer to fish my own flies, if I can. I'm planning on targeting any inshore game fish that I might come across and wanted to know if you have any patterns you might recommend. [00:04:00.560] I'm very inexperienced when it comes to saltwater fishing, but I would like to take advantage of the opportunity. I'll probably be limited to fishing from the beach or wading on my own because I'll probably only have a few short windows of time to fish. I plan on packing a 9.5-foot 8-weight rod. It's the heaviest rod I own. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks, Tom.
Tom: So Daden, I have actually never fished in Cozumel. [00:04:30.030] So I don't want to give you any specific fly patterns. I haven't researched it myself, but I suggest that you do an internet search. I'm sure you can find...any patterns that are recommended for southern Mexico are going to be good in Cozumel. Generally smaller flies. Generally sixes and eights for those fish. And then, you probably want some tarpon flies [00:05:00.118] of some type and some small crab flies for permit. But I'm gonna let you do your research on that.
I can tell you about fishing the beach. And I assume you're gonna be probably fishing the beach in a resort area, which can get kind of crowded and busy. And I can tell you my experience in Belize anyways, which is not dissimilar from the conditions you're gonna experience, [00:05:30.375] you're gonna be walking the beach and there might be a lot of foot traffic, you know. It depends on what part of the beach you're on. But I have found that if I'm walking the beach in a resort area, and you can still catch fish, they'll still be around, I've found that either first light, right as the sun first comes up or before the sun comes up, you know, half hour before sunrise, and then last light, the fish are little less spooky [00:06:00.451] before the boat traffic and the walking traffic and the swimming traffic gets busy. And you may find some fish in shallow where you can wade to them. And, you know, especially if the first or last light are in conjunction with either the incoming or outgoing low tide. So somewhere around low tide generally, although I've also seen in low light at high tides, [00:06:30.236] the fish will come right up, right into the edge of the beach at high tide. So you can check that out.
And also, for wave fishing like that, I think that 9.5-foot 8-weight rod will be just perfect. So that'll be a great rod to take and either a 9 or a 9.5-foot for an 8-weight is the rod I would want in those circumstances.
The other thing is make sure you use a longer leader. You want to probably use a [00:07:00.027] 12-foot leader. If you don't have a 12-foot leader that's a 12-pound or 16-pound for these fish, you can add 3 feet to a 9-foot leader of 0.021 or 0.023 monofilament, because sometimes those fish are pretty spooky when they're in close. So I would go with a 12-foot leader for those fish.
Here's an email from Jake from [00:07:30.365] North Carolina. I just saw the new Helios 4 and wow, it looks amazing and the team has done a good job clearly communicating the improvements. I have two questions for you. One, is there something you've noticed about the new rod that is not noted in the performance or looks summaries online? And two, the Super Bowl pre-prints merchandise for both teams so that whoever wins immediately has championship gear on the field. The losing team's gear is sent elsewhere to be disposed of, [00:08:00.520] or so I've heard. Although it's not the same thing, what happens to the unsold Helios 3 rods? Anyone not living under a rock saw the Helios 3 on deep discount, so it wouldn't surprise me if every single one was sold. But what if they weren't? Is there an outlet where we can still pick up a new Helios 3?
So Jake, I think you'll find the answer to your first question in the interview with Shawn Combs. Regarding the remaining [00:08:30.340] Helios 3s, what we do when we discontinue rods is we keep rods and blanks for parts so that if someone breaks a tip or a butt section or a midsection on their Helios 3 and they need a replacement, we've got a quick replacement to send out to 'em. So we keep those parts for repairs for a long time. But there may be, I would investigate some [00:09:00.687] Orvis dealers or Orvis stores. Some of them, probably the Orvis stores don't have any because they send 'em back to our warehouse to be sold on sale. But some of the Orvis dealers probably have some leftover Helios 3 rods. So I would just call around and see if you can find one. 'Course, there's always eBay too. You may find one on eBay.
And finally, here's a great [00:09:30.594] phone call from Josh from St. Louis who gives some additional information on fishing in Missouri. We had a question a few weeks ago about fishing in Missouri and Josh speaks from personal experience on the various opportunities that are available in St. Louis.
Josh: Hi, Tom. Josh in St. Louis, Missouri. Been fly fishing for about a year and listening to the podcast [00:10:00.692] for that long too, although I have consumed about three or four years worth of podcasts in the last year. So really appreciate you having all of this information to share and your contributors because it's really helped me out a lot. No questions today but just want to provide some additional comments and information for a caller named Jim from Kansas from the January 1st podcast. He's asking about trout fishing in Missouri. Talked a lot about, you know, catching stockers and what you [00:10:30.789] might do versus what you might do out west in some of the Wild West, you know, wild trout streams. So thought you did a really good job answering the question. I feel like it is very similar, especially because there are nine blue ribbon trout waters in Missouri where trout are able to reproduce and have wild fish. Some of the larger waters, they are supplementally stocked, but some of the creeks, they are not. [00:11:00.365] So purely wild fish in those creeks, although they were all stocked at one point because trout are not native to Missouri. There are also red and white ribbon trout waters where they are more heavily stocked. Trout can survive year around, but I don't believe the habitat in those waters is as optimal for reproducing for spawning.
But again, I also agree with your comment that a hold-over trout or a trout that has even survived [00:11:30.487] in the wild for just a few months is gonna behave a little bit more like a wild trout. So all of the tactics that you would use in the wild and out west, you know, they are gonna work here in Missouri as well too. Couple additional tips that I have. One, get on Facebook or social media. Missouri Trout Bums is a popular Facebook page where people are posting pictures of their catch, lots of comments about, you know, what they used and different things like that. [00:12:00.799]
Number two, check out Trout Unlimited local chapters. There are two, maybe three in Missouri. All of them are gonna know quite a bit about trout fishing in Missouri.
Number three, go fly fish where other fly anglers are. I know that's counterintuitive because we all want our space. But if you can watch somebody who's catching fish, strike up a conversation, ask them for advice, you're gonna learn a whole lot more. [00:12:30.239]
Bonus tip. Missouri trout parks. They are pretty crowded and sometimes tough to fly fish in the warmer months, although some of them do have some fly fishing-only sections year round. In the winter months, they are catch and release only. So the fact that they're catch and release only and that there are lower regulations tied to the catch and release only, and that the weather is a little bit colder, you're only really gonna see people out there that are truly dedicated to catching trout and releasing them. [00:13:00.337] And a lot of them are fly anglers. So it's a way to still have, you know, what I feel is an adequate amount of space, but also be around fellow fly fishing enthusiasts that, you know, they might have some good tips for you if you ask them in person. So that's all I have for today. Again, really appreciate all you do and look forward to listening to more podcasts.
Tom: The one thing I would add to Josh's statement is that he recommends that if you see someone fishing and catching fish, should go and politely ask 'em [00:13:30.848] how they're doing, and what they're using and what kind of technique and so on. But if you do that, don't fish within sight of them. So I think, Josh, you've insinuated that but I just want to make sure that everyone understands that, that if you stop and get some information on someone, give them plenty of space. Go out of sight so that you're not horning in on their water.
All right. That is the very [00:14:00.362] short Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Shawn Combs. Well, my guest today is the great Shawn Combs. Shawn is one of my favorite fishing buddies and co-worker and what's your official title, Shawn? I don't even know what it is.
Shawn: My official title, Tom, is the director of product design and development for the fishing, hunting and dog [00:14:30.515] categories of the Orvis company.
Tom: Okay. Wow. That's a lot of stuff to keep track of. And you are, along with the team and the rod shop, and in our real factory, really kind of the head guy of development, right?
Shawn: For rods and reels, you could say that. The teams for rods and reels are a lot bigger than maybe,[00:15:00.165] say, wading or something like that. But yeah, yeah. I'm the person that gets to kind of help lead, if you will, the direction setting and some of the more fun stuff.
Tom: Okay. So probably no surprise to most people listening to this podcast that we have a new rod out, introduced with great fanfare, I think, [00:15:30.293] and a lot of people are excited about it. And one of the things that people ask me a lot in the podcast are how exactly are rods designed? How do you come up with the ideas? How do you design 'em? How do you test 'em? How do you develop 'em? Want to kind of lead us through the Helios pathway?
Shawn: Yeah, sure, Tom. So first and the foremost, the first thing you do in rod design is ask the actual angler [00:16:00.376] what they want. So we do a lot of insight collection. Whether that's asking previous generation Helios customers what they think about the rod, what they like, they don't like, how they would want it to perform better and what fishing applications they use, all kinds of things. So we do that with customers. We do that with fishing managers in retail stores. We do that with our wholesale partners, especially fly fishing shops all over the country and the world. We do that [00:16:30.411] with our endorsed, you know, partners and outfitters, you know, some guides, people who are day in, day out, relying on this, on rods and reels that we make and our equipment and getting their feedback. So that's really step one.
Tom: That's a lot of input and it probably goes in all kinds of directions. So how do you sort out what we can and want to do and what we should, eh, maybe we're not gonna do that. How do you sort through that?
Shawn: Yeah, it's amazing. [00:17:00.037] It probably converges a lot more than you would think. You know, for example, for the fourth generation Helios, it was three focused pieces of feedback. One, first and foremost, you know, all the surveys come back, 97% of the respondents were super pleased with Helios 3. They either met or exceeded their expectations. You know, you could step back and go, "Well, you know, geez, [00:17:30.129] from a marketing or a merchandising standpoint, a business sense, it makes no sense to redesign it." Right?
Tom: Yeah.
Shawn: But the opportunities were still there. The top three things that the customer, you know, the insight that we collected, the user, the angler, if you will, were accuracy, super important, durability, extremely important, and then quality. And those were the three attributes that, irregardless [00:18:00.576] of what type of insight, you know, who it was that we asked, it always came back to those three things. So that kinda starts the whole process of, well, how do you make a more accurate rod, you know. Durability, we can strive to make it more and more durable. Is that gonna hinder from its performance and accuracy, making it heavier? You know, will that take away from its quality and swing weight, so on and so forth.
So that's kind of that perfect [00:18:30.621] engineering moment where you sit down and you say, "Let's take a historical perspective and see how we got here." And then, that's gonna help us kinda go from here forward. And I think that's the...people have asked me, like, "Well, how long ago was it that you started working on the new Helios?" I would say that moment was probably in 2008 when Steve Hemkins, at the time, he was a rod developer, walked into a room and said, "We need to make the world's lightest rod." [00:19:00.402] A year or so later, we introduced Helios first generation. And it was the world's lightest rod, you know. It was a great rod. It really kinda, I think, turned heads. You know, you can remember in that kind of, those days, if you will, people were like, "Wow, this is a performance fly rod from Orvis. Great."
Fast forward to 2012. We embarked on Helios 2 [00:19:30.126] and that was all about making a rod that was stronger, lighter and smoother. Right? And so, and that we checked the boxes. It was 20% stronger. You could bend it more and before it would blow up. It was 20% lighter swing weight. And it sort of, you can see that, you know, looking back, you can see that evolution, right, of the rods are improving. You know, the Helios family [00:20:00.466] of rods are improving.
Fast forward four or five more years, and we start working on Helios 3. And I think that was a really awesome moment, Tom, because same thing. Insight collection. People had been saying, you know, "I love Helios 2." You get a little bit of...the durability was way, way, way better than Helios first gen. But could it still be improved? [00:20:30.493] And really we had a moment where, through insight collection, accuracy really became the most important thing. And everything about Helios 3 was making the world's most accurate rod. That's pretty much what we did, you know. And along the way, we had a really good time. We had a lot of insight of people were confused. They would go into a retailer and they would say, "You know, I want to try the new Helios 2." And first thing somebody would ask 'em is are you a tip flex or a mid-flex [00:21:00.473] caster? And they would look at them like, "I don't know. I drive a five-speed. Does that make me a tip flex or a mid-flex caster?" Right? So it was confusing, right? Whether you're new to the sport or you've been doing it for years, we really wanted to spin it around.
I think you really kind of encouraged me and the rest of the team to think about designing rods [00:21:30.099] for end use. And, you know, a no-compromise dry fly rod that was all about finesse. A bonefish rod that, you know, would confidently cast into the wind, 50, 60 feet to tailing bonefish on a flat, an 8-weight and do it with no compromise to accuracy. Not being, you know, as stiff and you know how to drive it or whatever, it's not working for you, you're having to work it. And so, [00:22:00.166] that set us up for, I think, one of the more important evolutions is walking away from mid and tip flex, which serve their purpose in kinda communicating rods' performance and behavior and style to the customer, to going to the F and D Series, the finesse and distance series. And the coolest thing about that is we really wrote on a piece of paper, we're gonna make these rods that are specific end use. [00:22:30.453] No compromise. And they're both going to have accuracy as the most important attribute.
Tom: Yeah. And it was a really exciting and fun journey when, you know, when we talked about, I said, "Look, Shawn. We can make the most accurate rod that we think is the most accurate, but it's always subjective." You know, you send it to somebody and they say, "Oh yeah, it tracks better." But there's so many variables involved in that. [00:23:00.337] The ability of the caster and the wind and the leader they have on. So we said, "We've gotta be able to measure. How can we measure tracking? How can we measure accuracy?" And you found this old colleague of yours who was retired and was a mad scientist really, who built this device for us to digitally measure [00:23:30.447] the vibrations, the recovery rate of a rod and graphically show that in two planes. And it's just, I mean, we still use it, right? It's just a really cool analysis tool.
Shawn: Yeah. At the rod shop, our team basically with Frank Hoard saying, "We don't want to measure an opinion. We want to [00:24:00.401] collect data empirically." So that led us to creating what we call the dampometer, dampometer, whichever side of measurement devices you're on. And, you know, so we created the dampometer with Dr. Perrington [SP] and it uses infrared cameras and machine vision to measure the oscillation of just the fly rod. So no inputted dampening device, [00:24:30.446] you know, your hand, the caster, fly line, you know, no wind, nothing like that. So laboratory setting. What does this spring do with just its natural state spring-mass damping equation, hard stop. Just the rod mounted in a device deflected, and then let loose to see what the tip displacement does to come back to, you know, stored energy [inaudible 00:24:59.017] energy and come back to steady state. [00:25:00.851]
And we found with Helios 3 that we could focus our construction techniques, taper strategies, material selection, how we varied wall thickness throughout the blank, all of these things. We focused on hoop strength, which we knew with H3 that the more through oscillation that the cross section of a tube was ovalizing, that was energy sapping, [00:25:30.311] if you will. And so, you know, we weren't just subjectively, you know, building a prototype and taking it out, and giving her a wiggle in the pond, and going fishing with it and say, "Oh yeah, I had a good day fishing. This is great." We were measuring in a laboratory and we knew discreetly if this rod tracks better, it's gonna cast better. And Helios 3, we were really just scratching [00:26:00.471] the surface of what was capable there. And to this day, Helios 3, up until two weeks ago, was the world's most accurate rod. We've measured competitive landscape rods. We've built prototypes along the way to make this fourth generation Helios and the coolest thing is we stayed focused. We stayed laser focused on accuracy through a development of the new Helios and we've increased, [00:26:30.754] well, we've really decreased the tracking threshold by four times.
Tom: Yeah. And I think the coolest thing is it doesn't matter at what level of a caster you are, because the rod is going to deliver the line where you point the tip, right? And regardless of whether you're a really advanced caster or just starting fly fishing, you can point your [00:27:00.989] finger, you know. You know how to point your finger at an object and taking all the variables out of, you know, of casting ability and the wind and everything else, that rod is gonna be more accurate for everyone because people know how to point their finger. And even if your cast isn't perfect, the rod's gonna help you get on the target, as long as you can point your finger at something.
Shawn: Right. [00:27:30.427] And the beauty of it is if the rod is oscillating left and right, so let's back up and just geek out for a second on numbers. As measured, a Helios 3, 9-foot 5-weight F Series, that thing tracks world-class, left and right, a total threshold left and right, it will displace about 1.6 inches. You know. And give or take average, 1.6 inches. The next best competitor [00:28:00.933] on the market that we measured was about 3, 3.5 inches, right. So you know, you can take your fingers and your thumb, your index and gap 3.5 inches. The new 905F measures tracking-wise, about 0.4 inches, which is less than the width of a tip top. And that's total threshold. So that's left and right [00:28:30.771] total distance is 0.4 inches. So your eye's picking a target. Your finger, thumb, depending upon how you hold your rod, is going to point to the target. And if the rod becomes that extension and it's not wobbling left and right, you don't have to compensate for it.
And the repeatability part's super important too, right, because a lot of people, they'll make a false cast and they'll say, "Okay, yeah, I'm on a target." And every third cast, [00:29:00.354] the rod's gonna do something with the track and it's a little different and they're gonna compensate. If the rod's going straight, then you can just focus on my fingers going straight, straight to the target, right?
And through fill testing, through, I mean, through the whole two and a half years of development, almost three years of development, it's been awesome just to kind of, you know, yeah, we measured it in a lab. There's a lot of things that are measured in a lab. When you go out to the real world [00:29:30.846] and you're on the stream or you're on a flat, it doesn't work out like it does in the laboratory, right? But having that lab-tested, measured device go out in the real world and then exceed expectations and correlate to what we measured has been probably the coolest thing about the whole development process.
Tom: Yeah. And what's amazing, I find, is that you think a rod that's gonna wiggle and wobble less at the end of the cast [00:30:00.465] is gonna be stiffer, but they're not. They're just as much fun and enjoyable to cast, and they bend in the way that they should bend, and they feel light and they're just a delight to fish. But how you got that vibration down so much without sacrificing the beauty of a fly rod and the [00:30:30.349] delicacy and the grace and the power of a fly rod is pretty amazing.
Shawn: Yeah. Thanks. Well, kudos to the rod shop team as well. It's a group effort and it's been awesome to kind of see that come to light. I will say the really interesting thing about it is the tracking's not only for, like, the one cast to target. Where it really shines, these rods shine is, you know, you said it. Normally if you wanted a rod that tracked really well, [00:31:00.431] maybe you would stiffen it up to where it really just can't bend. It can't bend left and right. The energy's still gonna store. The energy's still gonna displace and it's gonna displace in whatever natural frequency it wants to, its oscillation. The beauty with the new Helios is that it has a really accessible, smooth energy transfer, whether it's short casts off the tip of the rod, whether it's deep, long casts, [00:31:30.586] using more reserve power in the blank, you know, and really stretching it out. It doesn't have some, like, sacrifice of, like, well, I can only cast it from 30 to 40 feet really accurately. I mean, it just goes. It matches the desire of the angler, you know, regardless of the situation.
The other cool thing is, and it really became apparent whenever I started dry fly fishing these rods is, you've got your initial cast and what tracking does for that [00:32:00.614] to be on target. But then, when you go and throw, like, a reach cast or an air mend, a stack mend or something like that, a rod that covers faster and tracks better is that much quicker to getting those three seconds of casting to get to this next input and throw a reach or throw a mend or a tuck or a curve cast. And that's where these rods really come alive and shine from an accuracy standpoint.
Tom: So without revealing any [00:32:30.455] top secret voodoo, how did we get, how did you and the team get from Helios 3 to what is not Helios 4, but is just Helios the fourth generation, right? You won't let us call it Helios 4. You and I have had this argument many times...
Shawn: It gives us something to talk about on road trips.
Tom: ...a lot of windshield time, [00:33:00.264] me trying to convince you to call it Helios 4. But no, it's just Helios. Okay. But, you know, how did we get from...and I was a doubter at first. I was one of those people who said, "Man, how can you make a better rod than Helios 3?" And I really put you on the spot. And you had to convince me.
Shawn: Well, I remember we were going down to the Delaware. On the way down, you were like, you asked me, [00:33:30.499] "Okay, I got a 9-foot-4 F Series, new prototype. How is it better?" And I think of it and I really [inaudible 00:33:38.414] you and I away, I said, well, we're at mile marker 67. In five days when we're driving back, I'm gonna let you answer me that question." And then, I watched you absolutely have a ball. Like, for five days dry fly fishing, you know, letting me out of the boat and go stocking, side braid fish, technical fish, windy day fish. [00:34:00.683] We were setting up on, I literally was not trying to be kind to you and setting you up on fish where...
Tom: No, we weren't very kind.
Shawn: Yeah. Like, no, no, no. I want you to go, you know, go across wind, under the tree, on the bank, 2 inches off of that rock, you know. And you would just set up and all the variables were against you. And you literally, you know, were making it happen and turning around and smiling. You're like, okay, okay. [00:34:30.101]
Tom: I was making it happen sometimes. Let's not make me into some fishing machine. I screwed up plenty of times.
Shawn: Yeah, sure. Well, we all do. We all do. But I mean, it was really fun though watching you kind of experience that because I think that trip was your first time out with the 4-way prototype in a super familiar situation that you fished in before.
Tom: Yeah. I had fished a 5 in Chile, the year before. So I had some time on the 5-weight. [00:35:00.292]
Shawn: Yeah. So back to how do you get there, right. What we did was we did a teardown of Helios 3. When I say that, we basically took the whole, all 29 models, measured and measured and measured every variable we could. You know, not just how do they track. Not just their swing weights or the physical weight, but we measured wall thicknesses. We measured, you know, not just wall thickness at key stations [00:35:30.779] around ferrules and at the butt section, the tip section, but continuously throughout. When I say we, I'm gonna go with Frank Hoard, built a design of experiment, where he said, "Hey, we can change construction techniques so many ways and they all have independent variables of if you change a angle here or a thickness [00:36:00.467] there or a layup style, there's a multitude different ways to do that." Well, he's like, "Let's do 'em all and figure out what the input back from performance standpoint is better understand, not just kinda lucking into and subjectively saying, 'Oh, we like this taper strategy because it does this really well,'" but what is the impact taper strategy to the design performance or the characteristics of the rod. [00:36:30.182]
And that work, he started that work, him and Don really led a lot of that work in, like, 2020. Summer of 2020, they were coming in. We were all sitting around kind of, hey, what if we did that? What if we did that? And that led to, at that time, it led to what I consider the advanced concepts that built us the Blackout Series. So the 9-foot-5-inch 5-weight, [00:37:00.394] that was literally me walking in and saying, "Hey, let's try to make a longer 5-weight than a 9-footer without sacrificing swing weight, not make you feel clunky like you're casting a 10-footer or something like that. Let's improve the accuracy. Let's make it feel lighter than a 9-foot-5-weight H3. Let's do all this stuff, you know, where it can kinda bomb and keep up with the tail water rigs of, you know, dry droppers, [00:37:30.804] big foam, indicator rigs, small streamers. But it also can slide over in a side channel and cast a size 18 or a 20 BWO or Pseudo or something like that, to a sipper."
And that was probably the coolest moment in the beginning of what would become Helios is we use these odd lengths, like the 8-foot-5-inch 8-weight, [00:38:00.301] the 11-3, you know, let's make a longer Euro tight line rod that won't sacrifice on sensitivity, won't sacrifice on swing weight. And we learned a lot in that process and that just started the there's more here. And you think about going back to 2008 with first-generation Helios, it's just a big long arc of continuous improvement, geeking out on rod design, right? [00:38:30.773] And we haven't even talked about it, but the remarkable improvements and durability through those four generations all the way to the current rod has just been phenomenal. And we've kinda surpassed what I would call the oh, my gosh, you know, I'm bending the rod, the fish goes under the boat and the rod's bending and it's hooping out. We kinda got past that, you know, [00:39:00.535] having that insurance policy on when things go bad and unplanned. We got past that. And with the 25% increase in durability we have now, we're really getting into creating more reserve power, lifting power, fish fighting power, to essentially control the fight a lot more, reduce the length of time.
I mean, tarpon fishing is a great example. Magnum, Martina, Benny, those guys are all [00:39:30.806] basically coming back with, wow, you know, the lifting power here. I can let a tarpon take its initial first run, jump itself out and then basically put the wood to it once I get my line back on the reel and never let it see back again because of the reserve power here. The amount of pressure that you can put on a fish to shorten those fights is pretty phenomenal with the rod. It's not just about how strong it is, you know, [00:40:00.078] from a breakage max hoop standpoint. But it's about its inherent strength and reserve power in the butt section, the butt mid.
Tom: Mm-hmm. So talk about how you did it.
Shawn: Oh, you know, I'm just dodging that question left and right, you know. I mean, fundamentally, I mean, it sounds like, you know, oh, it was just a 15-year journey to excellence. No. Not so much. I mean, it was some [00:40:30.074] trial and error, a lot of refinement. A lot of evolution. A lot of just wanting to innovate and just never settling, right. I mean it's one of the best things about Frank is he just, you know, as soon as he gets the gold medal, he's just like, "Yeah, let's go further." You know? And it's so inspiring to be around people like himself and Don, you know, and the rest of the crew [00:41:00.004] at the rod shop is because they don't want to just go, "Okay, we did it. You know. We made it." They always want to push the limits even further and it's a cool thing.
And how we pushed those limits, which is the next question, which is the last two questions you asked me, I think those are guarded secrets, Tom. I mean, you know, when they translate 'em from the engineer to the catalog, it's gonna come across as [00:41:30.621] Orvis being super focused on performance attributes, developing measurement devices so that they're not relying on how nice the day was when someone was casting it, but they're measuring the device, if you will, this complex, long, 9-foot long spring, they're measuring its characteristics. They're focused on, you know, we were focused [00:42:00.952] on hoop strength. We were focused on taper strategy, putting the weight where it needed to be in the rod. Not overbuilding a section. Making transitions of energy transfer super smooth. All those things. It's really hard. I mean, everyone wants to have, like, the silver bullet, the magic, you know, this is what it was. We've talked about it before, unicorn dust and everything else. And to be honest, [00:42:30.612] it's less of that and more of, I think, an expression of whenever an artist or a craftsman just continues to hone their craft, that 15 years later you get really good. And that's what the rod shop's been doing.
Tom: Is it fair to say that it's not a new material but it's how you use the material?
Shawn: Yeah, that's super fair to say.
Tom: That's about as [00:43:00.708] much as you're gonna tell me, right?
Shawn: Yeah, that's super fair. I mean, no surprise, the material we use is our proprietary patented resin system. We've adjusted fibers throughout the blank. You know, we've changed some of the fibers and how we use 'em and where we use 'em. It's about as far as I'm gonna go on that one. But yeah, this isn't, you know, Helios fourth generation now with super buzzword. [00:43:30.383]
Tom: It's not Helios 4.
Shawn: No. I'm actually hoping that the mass market just adopts Quattro. I really am. I think it'd be great.
Tom: I think there'd be a trademark violation.
Shawn: Well, you know, it's just a nickname. Can't trademark a nickname.
Tom: Yeah. So, you know, I guess in the long run, it shouldn't matter to people like me who just fish 'em, right. It shouldn't matter how [00:44:00.351] you did it. The proof is in the pudding and they're better. And I have to tell you little story that when my last trip to Chile, which was November of...no, December of 2023, I was down there with Mark Melnyk and we had the new rods and Mark had a bunch of Helios 3s that he brought. And I was mainly using the new rods, but one day we switched and Mark took my rod because we wanted to get some footage [00:44:30.398] of it and I used his Helios 3. They were both 6-weights. We're fishing on a big lake for big brown trout with dry flies. And I cast the rod a little bit and I said, "Is something wrong with this rod? Mark, you got the right line on this rod?" And I checked the designation on the line. Yeah. It was the right line. And is your leader okay? Yeah, leader's okay. I had gotten so used to the new rod [00:45:00.430] that going back to a Helios 3, it didn't feel as good. It didn't feel as good.
Shawn: I had the same experience with our R&D manager at Scientific Anglers, Josh Jenkins. He and I were testing lines on the Cape. And I brought a prototype, this was a few years back, I brought a prototype 10-weight and a H3 10-weight. And he brought some new [00:45:30.395] fly lines and we were gonna have a great time, right? And we were fortunate, we had, you know, good sun and we could sight fish to striped bass. And I'm having a ball. And at some point he was like, "Hey, I want to try the new rod." And I think he caught one fish on it. I'm like, okay, time's up. So much for this. We're gonna share rods and switch back and forth and take notes all day. I just lost my iPad in the ocean. [00:46:00.125] Similar experience.
Tom: Yeah. So the new rod is not gonna have a hook keeper.
Shawn: No. No, actually we solved that. Depending upon the length of the rod, there's up to 14 hook keepers up and down the blank.
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Shawn: All joking aside, I mean, I think that at first when we took the hook keeper off of the Helios 3, [00:46:30.574] it was definitely something to talk about. Between that and the white label that was a lot of the early noise. I've had more people over the last five years say, "Oh, wow. Now that I just hook my fly on the stripping guide or on the first snake guide and loop it behind the real seat. Keeps the leader to fly line loop out of the tip top, makes it super easy to rig and go from spot to spot." I think it's [00:47:00.422] catching on, no hook keeper.
Tom: There's still people out there.
Shawn: It'll be in the first comment, yeah.
Tom: You know what we oughta sell? We oughta sell a Helios hook keeper kit with a spool of thread and some epoxy and a hook keeper. And they can wind their own on.
Shawn: Hundred percent. There's actually, our friends at Loon made a rubber band attachable hook keeper [inaudible 00:47:26.390] fly rod. And so, clearly, we've created a market. [00:47:30.398]
Tom: Oh, God. Are we gonna sell those?
Shawn: Oh, I'm not sure.
Tom: Loon can sell them. Let them sell them. So if anybody wants a hook keeper on their new Helios, you can get the Loon gadget or Shawn Combs will personally send you a spool of thread and a hook keeper. Right?
Shawn: No. I'm gonna go on the record and say no. [00:48:00.362]
Tom: Aw, come on. Hook keepers are cheap.
Shawn: Yes, they are. So yeah. What else about the rod's performance, what do you think, Tom?
Tom: I don't know. You know, people really have to cast them and that's the thing. You really have to cast 'em and fish 'em to be convinced. You can't listen to a podcast and be convinced to buy a new rod, although we'd like that to be true. Just people need to, [00:48:30.111] if you have a friend that has one, try it. If you can get to an Orvis dealer, an Orvis store, try one out. And when you try the rod, make sure that you have a good leader on the rod and that you have a target. Don't just get out and cast as far as you can cast, right. That's the most people do when they try a rod and it doesn't tell you anything. But get some spots on the grass or on a pond or wherever you're casting the rod [00:49:00.258] and try to hit 'em. And I think that's what's gonna convince you. And all kinds of conditions, windy, rainy, snow, whatever. I think that is what is going to convince people about the rod.
Shawn: I think a couple things I want to call out. You know, as your listeners are looking through the new collection, there are definitely some surprises in there. [00:49:30.368] And, you know, we haven't even talked about this, you and I. I mean, we've talked about plenty, but not today. One of the things that I think is really unique is we took the F and the D Series, we listened to customers, we moved some models around. So we took, like, the 10-foot-4-weight, 5-weight, 6-weight, put 'em in the D Series. That was based on customer feedback. We specifically took the short small streamline rods, the 7.5-foot [00:50:00.008] series and made them even softer.
Tom: Yeah, I love that 7.5 for a 3 is the best small stream rod I have ever fished, bar none.
Shawn: It's crazy, right, super fun. The Euro rods, their set up is a little collection, the 10-3 and the 11-3. The 10-3 is insane. I mean, just imagine taking the accuracy, tracking and sensitivity of the 11-3 and then shortening it up. [00:50:30.493] It's great for light bugs and smaller setups. The other cool thing that we did is we have this quick shot series, I think is what they're calling it. But the 8-foot-5-inch 8-weight, such a fun rod. We did it in a 7-weight. We did it in a 10-weight. So you've got...the 8-weight's awesome. The 7-weight just becomes a great rod for streamer fishing. [00:51:00.155] It is my go-to boat rod whenever you're streamer fishing smaller water or tight structure and bank form, and you're just floating along and just picking spots and throwing loops into little nooks and crannies. And then, the 10-weight's a perfect, like, tarpon, mangrove and not just baby tarpon but tarpon tarpon, snook, you know. It's a great rod for that. Red fish, gurgler kinda rod. [00:51:30.568] All three of those rods are quick loading, super light swing weight and they have a lot of lifting power and extra leverage. So you can get it really done with that.
And the cool thing as well is we're back in the bluewater game. We got a 14-weight, 8-foot-5-inch 14-weight that's been being tested kind of all over. But just did a [00:52:00.369] couple rounds in Mag Bay, which is pretty awesome. Not just a fish fighting tool but a good casting tool as well and [inaudible 00:52:11.064] that. It's been cool to see that one kinda come back in. It's been since Helios 2, we had a 14-weight. So even on the east coast, tuna guys, you know, Conway and the San Diego crew from Makos [SP], Sand Point and some of the bigger water stuff [00:52:30.589] all over, that's gonna be a fun one to get it out there and all that.
Tom: You know what I noticed? I fished the, is it 8.5 for 7 or 8.5 for 7?
Shawn: It's 8-5.
Tom: Eight-5 for a 7 streamer rod, which is a streamer machine. The one thing I noticed with that rod, I was fishing a fairly small river in Chile, very brushy. [00:53:00.240] And you can't wade too deep, so usually your back's up against the brush but it's not big enough for a two-handed rod. And I noticed that that rod roll casts like a demon. And I had always thought that longer rods would roll cast better, but that rod really booms out of roll cast with a 7-weight line and a big streamer.
Shawn: Yeah, it stores a lot of energy in a compact load. [00:53:30.457] I know exactly what you're saying. Brad Befus, our president of SA and wholesale manager. He took one of those and used it as his hex rod in Michigan. And I can't wait to kinda use that as a smaller, floatable big foam, whether that's a salmon fly hatch or hoppers or whatever, you know, you step back and you're like, [00:54:00.284] "Really? A 7-weight?" But if you're roped up on a big piece of foam and you're in places where cover is to the fish's advantage, that's gonna be a great stand-out rod for throwing big dries too.
Tom: Yeah, it's a better fish fighting tool when you're in tight quarters and you want to steer fish away from logs and stuff. Yeah. Interesting.
Shawn: Can't wait, right? We're sitting here in February and I'm like, when are we going fishing?
Tom: I'm going to Chile [00:54:30.821] next week.
Shawn: I know.
Tom: And I left a bunch of rods down there so I'm all set. The guides have been flipping out. The guides in Chile, of course, you know, as guides are, in most places, they love their streamer fishing because they're always looking for big fish. And I don't think I'm gonna be able to get that 8-5 or 7 away from 'em. I think...
Shawn: Probably not.
Tom: ...they've got that kind of locked away in a guide shack somewhere. [00:55:00.355] I'm not gonna get that one. So Shawn, to kinda end this, how do you design a particular rod, let's say it's a new length and line size. How do you actually, how does that happen? A lot of people think you take an existing rod and you make it shorter, like okay, 8.5 for a 7, a good example here. A lot of people think, oh, they just took a 9-foot [00:55:30.759] for a 7 and they cut it back. How do you identify the need and then how do you design a rod for a specific need like that?
Shawn: Well, yeah, it's a really good question and...
Tom: Of course it is.
Shawn: Of course it is. I'm on your podcast and I say that naturally.
Tom: I ask the questions here.
Shawn: Yeah. I mean, think about this. The first thing you do is you have to envision what you want the rod to do, [00:56:00.185] where, how, what you're trying to achieve with a rod, right? And you're right. We don't take just a 9-foot-7 weight D and then chop 5 inches off of either the butt or the tip and then go, That's a pretty good rod." It's not that easy. And ultimately, and then, you know, the second part of that is, well, now that you have the 8-5-7, does it do something differently than the 9-footer that you don't need the 9 anymore, right? [00:56:30.455] And that creates this moment where you have to imagine the 8-5-7, I'm really focused on a streamer rod, tighter quarters, picking pockets and really fishing what I would say the first 3 to 5 feet off of the bank. And you might actually set your drift boat up and be running 20...well, I'll call it 40 to 50-foot [00:57:00.482] shots or, you know, 30 to 40-foot shots off the bank, some rivers, depending upon what you're floating, you might not have that much room and you really are just kind of knocking on doors, as my friend, Tommy Lynch would say. You're just gonna run by and knock on as many doors as possible. Somebody's gonna answer.
That rod needs to be quick loading, right. Okay, how do you make a quick loading rod? Well, you have a steep, steep taper. You know, what does that mean? [00:57:30.287] You have a butt section that's gonna support and build load to support a heavier line, heavier bug, be a 7-weight. But it needs to shallow out, you know, and get down to a tip section that's gonna be able to load in a short-casting stroke with not many false casts, really none. It's coming off the water behind you, picking your next target, redirecting and going. The 9-foot-7, [00:58:00.302] the one that we didn't just chop down, if I was on the mow and I'm running just a White Zonker or something, and I might be setting the boat up for 50 to 65-foot casts, and I'm fishing further out, maybe I'm inside fishing, inside kinda beach where everything's 2 to 3-feet deep and I'm not really structure focused as much as I am covering a larger section, and I'd really want that [00:58:30.495] longer 9-foot-7 and be, I'd say in a D, but it would have a little bit more of a finesse feel. And so, that, to me, is about how you approach starts with how are you gonna use the rod. And then, builds off of that, what kind of taper strategy, what kind of load, what kind of profile. We didn't really talk about profiles too much this episode, but that's a whole 'nother episode of where in the cast did [00:59:00.097] you want the rod to be optimized. And then, what is that cast doing for you? Is it you're standing and throwing draft flies? You're in the front of a skiff throwing to a stream of tarpon or you're throwing to a tailing fish and, you know, you've got to hit the zone and get your fly in front of it without bonking on the head or going left, right too far and all that stuff.
Tom: All right. So you have an idea. [00:59:30.322] You have a vision, right, of the way you want the rod to cast and perform.
Shawn: Yep.
Tom: Then you build a prototype based on that, right, and you pay attention to wall thicknesses and how you think it's gonna bend, right.
Shawn: Well, I think you probably, at that point, you've already designed it, you know, between Frank and I, we've already said, okay, make the flags this width. [01:00:00.106] Make the taper this way. Put it on these mandrels because we know it's gonna bend this way. So energy this way.
Tom: And then, you build a prototype and where does it go next?
Shawn: It goes out, I mean, immediately and it's total kid in a candy shop. It goes across the parking lot to the pond at the flagship. That's, like, the first stop. And that's just, you know, run it through paces, standard lines on it. We're not gonna do too much [01:00:30.486] there and then beyond that, it then goes, okay, yeah, I think it's a good casting rod. It's hitting the attributes that we want. At that point, I probably will personally take it, if I can, and get it on real water application. So that's either a trip down to the Batten Kill or if it's salt rod that's going to the Cape, depending upon the season or hopping on a plane and going somewhere and fishing it. [01:01:00.053] That is somewhat limiting, right?
Tom: Yeah.
Shawn: And that's where the beauty of fill testing and having partners out there, if you will, really comes in. I mean, we tested rods, you know, the stats are pretty staggering. I mean, we were multiple countries, multiple species. Probably 20 or so different fill testers. Helios rods and prototype form [01:01:30.679] have been everywhere. I mean, Seychelles, Australia, all over North America, you know, just you name it, South America, Central America. You just keep going. If there was water and there were fish, they were there. I mean, and it was pretty awesome. It really is a lot of fun getting the reports back in from Will Helmetag, he's our fill test coordinator, on the team, [01:02:00.999] and just the reports back is great. The videos are great. The knowing that these rods are being put to the test. I could probably do a whole podcast of just kinda reliving fill test moments and testimonials for just this series alone. But we tested a boatload of rods out in the field to go just beyond, you know, just oh, Shawn and Tom went and fished this [01:02:30.444] 7.5-foot 3-weight on the such-and-such brook.
Tom: So when do you take it into the vibrometer? What did you call that? The...
Shawn: Dampometer.
Tom: When do you take it into the dampometer and when do you take it into the, what do you call it, the client simulation device, which is breaking 'em on purpose.
Shawn: Breaking. Yeah.
Tom: Where does that happen in the process?
Shawn: Dampometer's gonna be early in the design phase. So it's really [01:03:00.363] before we go out and cast the rods in the pond. So it's Frank's and let's let the machine cast it first. How did we do? And it's probably worthy, I mean, some people would find this interesting, some people have fallen asleep already. But a 9-foot-5-weight D, we may have 16 different prototypes that all have very subtle tweaks.
Tom: Yeah, that was gonna be my next question. About how many [01:03:30.095] prototypes per model?
Shawn: So it depends on the model. But a 905 D, let's say there's 16 prototypes and those prototypes, we've already selected material. But we're just subtle tweaks on profile, taper strategy, load strategy, construction techniques. Too much hoop strength here. Not enough hoop strength there. And we're using those prototypes, we're kinda honing them down, getting into the funnel, [01:04:00.391] measuring attributes all along the way, casting them, coming up with now we've got this is the rod. The dampometer plays a significant role in measuring tracking throughout those prototypes to help us downselect. So we're not out on the pond, you know, hey, Simon, here's 16 rods. Tell us which one you like the best. No one's doing their job if that's the way. So we're making the hard choices. We're designing the performance [01:04:30.719] of the rods to be a certain way so that confidentially when we put a rod in Simon's hand or Charlie's hand or Pete Kutzer's hand, we're pretty confident that they're going to gel with the rod, right? Yeah.
So that's where dampometer comes in. Client simulation device, now that we've got the rod that is there and it casts great, it has to be able to hold up [01:05:00.393] from a durability standpoint. And the client simulation device is really just a fixed bend, I want to call it the bendometer and not bendometer. I mean, essentially, you can see in some of the videos, it is fixing the rod and then just bending it. And we used to, if you take H3s, like, the 100% bend, now we're 25% further. [01:05:30.486] The cool thing is when you look backwards and at any given point, for this performance, Helios 2 was about 75% of what H3 was. And then, Helios first gen was about 50% to 55% of what H3 was. So when you think about that kind of vast improvement throughout the 15 years in the generations of Helios, it's just, I mean, it's pretty outstanding in the confidence [01:06:00.439] of being able to fish, you know, fish and know that you're not gonna have to worry as much. And you can start to really unlock the fish fighting capabilities of the rod's pretty cool.
Tom: Well, you had to actually modify the bendometer, right, because you kept pulling the tip all the way back and it wouldn't break. So you had to make the travel even longer.
Shawn: We did that. We actually had to make two or three [01:06:30.301] major adjustments during this because we were maxing out where H3 was. We had to essentially move the geometry of the thing to make it that much more harsh to be able to travel that much further. In the process of doing that, oh, and some of the bigger rods, like the 10, 11, 12-weight, 14-weight, we were breaking the mounting device, which was a real foot. I mean, I've broken feet from reels [01:07:00.367] that were mounted to this device on my desk, you know, just as that's what it looks like whenever you make strong rods. And I remember one of our kind of moments at the rod shop that was super awesome. We had a bunch of people in for the board meeting. And, you know, Simon's dad and uncle were there. And we were showing off the new rods. And we got to the point where we were gonna break one [01:07:30.707] in the laboratory, right.
Tom: Because that's always fun. Everybody always loves breaking rods.
Shawn: It's always fun. Who wants to break $1,000 rod?
Tom: Yeah, yeah. We love it.
Shawn: So it goes max pull and everyone's waiting for the moment, you know, it's 20 people there. They're behind the glass so they're safe. They got their camera phones out. And it doesn't break and it goes to max pulley, the tip tops of the pulley and it's sitting there, quivering. And everybody starts clapping and all of a sudden, boom, you know, [01:08:00.475] it blows up. And I look at Frank and I'm like, huh. I mean, you know, one, awesome. Max pull. We actually broke the master car quick disconnect device that just blew up off of the fixture. And the rod didn't break and the rod just shot out of there because it was loaded up in a big U-spring. And luckily, it was behind glass and everybody was just like, whoa. Got it on video. It was pretty cool. Good moment. [01:08:30.261]
Tom: That's one of the most fun parts of your job, isn't it, breaking rods?
Shawn: Yeah. Well, I think it's in the catalog, there's a picture of a trash can with a bunch of broken parts in it. And I've had multiple people who've seen that image, you know, what's that all about? And there's about 14 broken rods and you can count the [inaudible 01:08:50.565], laying in this trash can. That was two models worth of breakage qualification. So about, you know, [01:09:00.431] five to seven, eight units or rods that we'll run through. We'll run through max breakage. Take them beyond that 125%. Blow them up. Measure where they blew up just to qualify. And so, you think about that. There's 29 models. Seems wasteful but it was the commitment, you know, to just making sure that every model met that standard for durability.
Tom: Yep. [01:09:30.925] That's awesome. And of course, that's breaking 'em in a fish or you know, pulling on a snag or whatever. You're still gonna be able to slam one in a car door. And that's the cool thing about all the rods we make in the rod shop is that somebody can just, they don't have to send the rod in anymore for a repair. We're so consistent with our tolerances that all they have to do is fill out a form, get a new tip shipped to you in [01:10:00.815] five days or less, right? Well, depends on...
Shawn: Yes. As fast is five days.
Tom: As far as five days is what I should say, yeah. So that's another advantage to these rods. All right, Shawn. Well, we could probably go on for hours and hours about fly rods. But probably meet...we've met the max of our voices and want to thank you for coming over today [01:10:30.044] and talking about fly rods. Always fun.
Shawn: Yeah, thanks, Tom. I just also wanna thank the rod shop, thank Don, thank Frank, thank the merchandising team, marketing team, planning team. Huge, huge moment for us. We're really excited about the rod. Can't wait to hear the customer feedback and get out and fish with people with them. And it's not just about, you know, a one-person or a small team. It takes a village, [01:11:00.036] they say. So thanks to everybody and can't wait to get the feedback on the rods.
Tom: Yeah. Oh, and one final thing. If you want to see this amazing team at work, we do run tours of our rod shop. I believe it's 10:30 a.m. Monday through Friday.
Shawn: Ten o'clock, yeah.
Tom: Ten o'clock a.m., Monday through Friday. If you're on vacation in the area or you're visiting up fishing or just visiting, you're welcome to come in. I think you'll be amazed at the pride [01:11:30.715] of everyone in that rod shop from start to finish, the pride they take in producing these amazing tools. All right, Shawn. I think that's it.
Shawn: Thanks, buddy.
Tom: All right.
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at