What's the First Fly to Tie On? With Award-Winning Outfitter Tim West
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast. This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer, and my guest this week is Tim West, who is the owner of Breckenridge Outfitters in Breckenridge, Colorado. Breckenridge Outfitters recently won the Orvis-Endorsed Outfitter of [00:00:30.434] the Year Award, which is a highly coveted award that is decided by customers, not by us, but by feedback we get from customers, and it's richly deserved. Breckenridge has won a number of other Orvis-Endorsed Awards in the past for their guide service. It's a great shop. I'm going to be speaking there this July and really looking forward to seeing the gang there. But Tim [00:01:00.063] is going to talk to us today about how to pick the right fly. In other words, how do you decide whether to fish a dry fly or a nymph or a streamer on any given day? It's a problem that we all have, and I struggle with it myself. I can never quite figure out which to start with. A lot of it is intuition and guesswork and whimsy, but Tim's going to give us some [00:01:30.430] solid advice on how to decide what kind of fly to pick when you first get to the river.
If you want to go fishing with me, I am hosting a trip at the wonderful Three Rivers Ranch in Warm River, Idaho. The trip is September 28th to October 5th. It's seven nights lodging and six days of guided fishing. It's [00:02:00.671] a wonderful time of year to be in Idaho. The guides there are amazing, and we fish in pretty special places. So, if you're interested in fishing with me this fall, contact Orvis Travel. You can see the trip listed on the Orvis website under Orvis-Endorsed Trips in Idaho. Before we get to my discussion with Tim, let's do the Fly Box. The Fly Box is where [00:02:30.032] you ask questions, and I try to answer them, where sometimes you share a tip with other listeners, and sometimes you just make a comment. Any of those are fine. You can reach me at
This podcast wouldn't really be what it is without [00:03:00.348] your input and your questions. I have a lot of people who tell me they like the Fly Box more than they like the interviews. Of course, there's an equal number of people who tell me they always fast-forward through the Fly Box and just go to the interviews. But either way, I hope you enjoy it, and I hope you enjoy both parts of the podcast. So, let's do some questions. The first one is from Chris from Devon in the UK. "Can you explain the difference between fast, medium, and slow action rods? I have a couple of budget rods and one mid-range, [00:03:30.318] all in 7 weights. I'm not really sure what action any of them are, but the mid-range rod feels stiffer and casts further. Could this be the action or just a superior brand characteristics? Most of my fishing is on windswept reservoirs for trout between 2 and 12 pounds, and I dream of one day getting the new Helios. How does the actions differ between the D and the F? I assume I would benefit from the Ds as I often cast large flies at distance. Finally, does a [00:04:00.078] 7-weight sound a bit heavy, or do you think switching to a Helios would give me the ability to drop a weight due to the rod's superior quality and strength?
Well, Chris, the action on a rod is such a subjective thing that it's difficult to articulate, but let me see if I can do it to make sense [00:04:30.843] without a diagram doing it here on the podcast. So, fly rods really have two characteristics. They have action, which is how the rod bends, and then they have load, which is how much the rod bends. And a rod can have the same load, the same deflection at the end of the day, but they can get to that deflection by a totally different kind of [00:05:00.747] action. So, in general, a fast action rod is going to bend not so much in the butt section and not too much in the midsection, but a lot more in the tip section. So, you can visualize it. It's really a lot of flexibility in the tip, but not so much in the midsection and very little in the butt. A medium action is going to be a little bit more bend [00:05:30.379] in the middle of the rod, but still fairly stiff in the butt section under a load. And then a slow action rod is going to bend more into the butt section. So, those are basically the three kind of basic actions that people talk about. And, of course, there's variability within those and ranges. And fly rod manufacturers get to those actions in many, many different ways.
And then there's load. Load is whether a rod [00:06:00.816] is a 6-weight or a 7-weight, and it's really how much resistance to bending the rod overall has. And today, a lot of the rods you see on the market, which are considered fast action or stiff rods, they're actually underlined rods to Orvis's way of thinking. We build our rods to really cast optimally [00:06:30.304] with the line size that they're rated for. But there are a lot of rods out there where you put a 6-weight line on it, and yeah, you can cast a long way, and the rod is going to feel really stiff and powerful. But it's not really going to bend enough to give you much pleasure, and it would really be better with one line size heavier. So, that mid-range rod that feels stiffer and casts further, we can hold...the stiffer a rod is the more line you can hold [00:07:00.001] in the air. So, that makes sense. That makes total sense. And it's probably a faster medium-action rod. But if it's slightly underlined, it will feel a bit stiffer. And, yeah, underlined rod can hold more line in the air because there's less mass outside of the rod tip, and it doesn't overload the rod.
But at the other end of the scale, when you need to make a 40-foot cast or you need to make a more delicate cast, you're going to struggle. You're going to have to work harder. [00:07:30.254] Regarding the new Helios actions, I would say that the D is a faster action rod, so it's going to bend more in the tip and less in the middle and the butt. And the load on that rod is going to be probably a little bit more, in other words, going to be a little bit stiffer overall than the F version, but not so much that it's one line size [00:08:00.373] difference, maybe a half line size difference or something. And the F version is going to flex more into the middle of the rod and the tip. It's going to have just a slightly less load on it. So, from what you described, you definitely want a D version if you do decide to upgrade to the Helios, if you definitely want a D version for what you're doing. And, yeah, I think as long as the flies that you're throwing [00:08:30.136] can be thrown with a 6-weight rod, you can certainly handle a fish up to 12 pounds with a 6-weight in the new Helios. They're very, very strong, and you can't believe the amount of pressure you can put on a fish with those rods. So, you may very well be able to drop down a line weight.
Here's an email from Ben from Whistler, BC. "I'd like to start off by saying your podcast has grown my love [00:09:00.321] of fly fishing exponentially, and I have learned a huge amount from listening to you and your guests. I mostly fish rivers and small streams and have good success in the summer months. However, I've been trying to fish over the last month on various occasions, and I've always come up empty-handed. I'd like to put this down to the fact that being quite north in the mountains where there is still a decent amount of snow, the fish are less active. I've tried various small streamers, nymphs, and when the weather is nice and there are insects out, I've tried dry flies trying to match the [00:09:30.285] insects I see. I did notice that one of the small tributaries that connects to my local river has very bright orange, almost sludge-like material covering the bed. So, I hope that is normal and not some pollution from nearby building work. My first question is, does this sound like a likely cause? I haven't seen any fish at all when I would usually see many around the areas that I go to.
My second question is this, as I have not had a lot of luck with the rivers, I decided [00:10:00.523] to try out still water fly fishing and went to a local trophy lake with a friend, both of us in kayaks. When we arrived there, there was one fisherman out in the water in a belly boat. He was trolling with one rod and stripping a streamer with another. In the hour that he was in the water alongside us, he caught maybe 4 rainbow trout of about 15 to 20 inches. My friend and I were in the lake about four hours trying different tactics from nymphs to streamers, to dry flies whenever we saw fish rising. However, we caught nothing. [00:10:30.179] Do you think it is possible that the sounds coming from our kayaks, the paddles hitting the kayak, and us moving around could have put off the fish from going for our flies? I am unsure what else to try. Maybe we just need to get better."
Well, regarding your first question, small streams are difficult to fish early in the season. Our small mountain streams here are the same. The water is cold and it takes longer to warm up than it does down in the valley. The [00:11:00.617] fish are feeding very, very infrequently in this cold water until it warms up. In fact, our streams here in the mountains fish best in the middle of summer when a lot of the lower rivers are getting quite warm. I wouldn't rule them out. You might try fishing nymphs very close to the bottom in slower pools, but in general, they are not going to fish well until [00:11:30.421] the weather warms up a bit and the water warms up. Regarding that stream with the orange sludge, I don't know of any natural phenomenon. There may be something in nature that would create orange sludge on the bottom, but I have a feeling that that is not natural. It could be coming from some type of mineral deposit, but more likely, it's maybe mine tailings or, as you said, [00:12:00.297] construction work. I would avoid that stream and probably I would avoid fishing well below it because it does sound like there is some kind of environmental insult going on in that stream. I would stay away from that. I would walk that stream or drive it and try to find out what is putting that orange sludge in the water because it doesn't sound natural to me.
Regarding your kayak [00:12:30.871] fishing, I do not think your paddles are going to spook fish in a kayak. Kayaks are pretty stealthy. Belly boats make noise, too. You have to kick with them. As long as you are not really banging the paddles on the kayaks too hard, I do not think they are going to bother the fish. I suspect maybe that this guy was using a sinking line and you were not. Just a guess. It sounds like [00:13:00.249] he was trolling and stripping, but it sounds like he was maybe getting down more in the water column. If you were just fishing a floating line, I wonder if you noticed if he was fishing a sinking line, particularly when he was trolling with that rod. I do not know that for sure. It could be just luck of the draw. It probably was not the fly he was using. There is probably no magic fly on that lake, but it was probably something that he was doing that [00:13:30.403] was different from what you guys were doing, and I would not worry about your kayaks.
Here is an email from Clyde. "I had the pleasure of meeting you at a seminar in Nebraska in March. I sat in the front row of the seminar, so I was up close, so I did not miss any knowledge you shared. I was truly impressed with your demeanor and willingness to share your knowledge gained from a lifetime of fly fishing. Thank you for coming to Nebraska. I am relatively new to fly fishing. I purchased my first rod and reel with my high school graduation [00:14:00.422] money in 1970. It was a 7.5-foot-8-weight Phillips Swamp Fox and a spring-activated Shakespeare Automatic Reel. For most of 50 years, the setup has stayed in its original packaging. About four years ago, as I started my retirement journey, I decided to try my hand at fly fishing again. I worked with the Orvis store in Southlake, Texas, to actively get into fly fishing. They recommended a 9-foot-6-weight Clearwater rod with reel [00:14:30.573] instead of the 8-weight setup I had. They also offered to beginners 'Learn to Cast' class the next Saturday morning, which helped me tremendously. Every time I get to the Dallas-Fort Worth area, I try to stop at the Southlake store to dream about my next acquisition. I have since begun learning to tie my own flies, and I'm working on getting my wife interested in tying flies.
My questions are, recognizing that my local fishing is for panfish in local lakes and ponds with [00:15:00.472] future trips to rivers in Colorado, what next piece of gear would be most beneficial to me? Waiters or a fishing vest sling pack? Which one? Vestor pack, a net, or something else? Is there a recommended suggested sequence of equipment acquisition? As a retiree, my budget is somewhat constrained, so my acquisitions are necessarily sequenced. Number two, when tying flies to fill a fly box, should I tie one of each of various flies or four to six [00:15:30.340] of each fly, same size and color, then move on to another fly? Is there a recommended, suggested sequence of flies to tie for a fly box used for panfish or the occasional stocked rainbow trout? Number three, probably the most important question, what is the schedule of the tie-offs you host with the other wannabe experts from Ohio and Utah and maybe Colorado or Montana? I love listening to your podcasts and watching the Orvis YouTube videos. Thank you for everything you do and the patience and humbleness [00:16:00.619] you exude with newbies like me."
Well, Clyde, let's see. Number one, the next piece of equipment really depends on your own needs. So, if you're fishing from a boat there in Nebraska, and when you go to Colorado, you go during the summertime, you may not even need a pair of waders. So, [00:16:30.244] that might not be something you need next. Something to carry your gear in is important, particularly for trout fishing. For pan fishing and bass fishing, you usually carry everything in your pocket, but trout fishing does necessitate a few more fly boxes and gadgets and so on. Whether you choose a fishing vest or sling pack is really a personal decision. Try them both on. Go into the store [00:17:00.343] and try them both on and see what you're most comfortable with. They both work very well, and I wouldn't begin to tell you whether you should get one or the other. I like a sling pack because I can push it around behind me and get it out of the way. There's nothing hanging in front of me. And I can carry a lot in it because I carry a lot of fly boxes, but that's really going to be a personal decision.
Regarding filling [00:17:30.506] a fly box, you should absolutely tie four to six of each fly first and then move on to another fly. If you just tie one of each pattern or color, for one thing, you don't get enough experience, you don't get enough repetition, so you don't learn much tying just one fly. The worst thing that can happen is you find a great fly that's really working well and you bust [00:18:00.239] it off on a big fish and you only tied one of them. So, I would definitely go with quantity rather than one of each one-offs because I just think you're going to be happier and you're going to learn more by tying that way. Then regarding the tie-offs, we decide these month to month. It's based on all of our schedules and all of us [00:18:30.130] are traveling a lot during the summer. So, the next tie-off with Cheech and Tim Flagler and myself is going to be Monday, May 20th at 3 p.m.
And you know what? I'm just looking back. I didn't really give you great advice on what to acquire next, but I think the Vestor Sling Pack is something you're going to need, and a net probably. A net is handy, particularly if you're going to release your fish. It's [00:19:00.493] a lot easier on the fish, a lot easier to get a picture of a fish when you can keep it confined in a net and still on the water. So, I think a net's important. Polarized sunglasses, obviously, fly floatings for dry flies, and strike indicators for nymph fishing, and a hook hone, a hook sharpener, which is something people often forget. Hooks can get rusty, and the [00:19:30.671] point can get bent out of shape, and a hook hone will put it back in shape and save your fly. So, anyway, those are a couple of suggestions on your next acquisition.
Hal: Hey, Mr. Rosenbauer. This is Hal from Greenville, South Carolina. I have a question. Every time I use my Swimming Jimmies or anything that has marabou on it, everything's always so fluffy [00:20:00.358] when I first get them in there and everything. When I use them, usually after the first time, they're not as fluffy as when I first get them, even though if I let them air dry or I've tried taking a hairdryer to them, just kind of like...see, trying different things. But what can I do to make them still fluffy and poofy the way [00:20:30.091] when I first get them? Also, thank you for giving tips and tricks and everybody that sends in their tips and tricks. Thank you.
Tom: So, Hal, you know, marabou when you buy it from a fly shop has been cleaned and dried and puffed up. And once you get it wet, it's probably never going to be as poofy and fluffy as [00:21:00.369] it was when you first got the fly. But marabou, when it's in the water, isn't fluffy and poofy. It's slim and wiggly and has great action in the water. So, I wouldn't worry about what it looks like when it's dry, as long as it's got plenty of action when you look at it underwater or when you look at it, you know, just when you cast it and bring it back and see how it swims. As long as it's still got good action, then [00:21:30.374] I think your fly is going to be just fine.
All right. How about another email from Chris from Calgary? "Hello, Tom. I love the podcast, and I feel like I learned something new every episode. I often fish the Bow River for trout downstream of Calgary, Alberta, and recently started to get more into streamer fishing rather than nymphing with an indicator all the time. I've read from a multiple sources that using a non-slip [00:22:00.809] loop knot is a better choice to give the streamer a little more action than a standard clinch knot. My dilemma is that I find the non-slip loop a little cumbersome to tie and it never seems to look real nice. I find it easier to tie a perfection loop to attach the streamer and it seems to be a much smaller and tidier-looking knot. Is there any disadvantage in using a perfection loop instead of the non-slip loop knot for attaching my streamers to the tippet and leader? Thanks for everything you do for a sport." [00:22:30.866]
Well, Chris, tying a streamer around with a perfection loop is, I think, trickier than tying a non-slip mono loop. But I know people that do use it. Personally, I don't trust a perfection loop in really fine tippet. I think if you get into 1X and OX and even heavier, your perfection loop will hold just right. But I have found that it's not [00:23:00.066] as strong a knot in 2X and finer in diameter. So, I would give that non-slip mono loop another try. It's a great knot. I think it's a stronger knot. You can use it in finer tippet material. And one of the tricks to the non-slip mono loop is that unlike other knots, you do have to pull on the tag end to tighten those coils up against the overhead knot. So, if [00:23:30.142] you just try to pull on the fly and the leader, it's not going to tighten that well. So, at first, you do have to pull on the tag end until it tightens down a bit, and then you give it a firm tug by pulling the fly and the standing part of the leader. So, try that.
And I would try just using a standard clinch knot. There's a lot of question as to whether [00:24:00.337] you get that much more movement from a loop knot and whether it is that effective anyway. Not all baitfish and not all things that trout eat wiggle from side to side. If you watch baitfish swim, they're fairly stiff. Their body is fairly stiff when they swim and when they dart away as opposed to wiggling. So, try the standard clinch knot, too. Don't just use a loop knot. [00:24:30.207] You don't always need to use a loop knot. And try going back and forth between a non-slip mono loop or your perfection loop and a standard clinch knot and see if you notice any difference.
Here's an email from Bill from New Jersey. "I have a bit of an odd question for you and then a tip. Last week, I was out fishing a small stream near me. As I got ready to move on to the next pool upstream, I noticed a great blue heron was already there working the pool. I ended up skipping [00:25:00.158] the pool and continuing upstream past it. I've spooked plenty of fish myself, and I've unknowingly fished behind other anglers who have likely spooked the fish. Was it reasonable to assume that a bird like a heron would have the same effect of spooking the fish, or could I have fished the pool which looked very fishy?" Well, Bill, I'm with you. If I see a heron in a pool, at least in a small stream, I'm going to move on because that bird likely [00:25:30.732] spooked the fish. Herons are pretty stealthy, but when they make their lunge at a fish, that's going to create quite a bit of commotion and probably spook the fish. Now, if it's a bigger river and the heron's on one side and the fish are out toward the middle or in a riffle or on the other side of the river, I wouldn't worry too much about it. But in a small stream, yeah, if I see a heron, or mergansers, or even a kingfisher working [00:26:00.493] a pool, I'm going to move on. I think you were wise to do that because the fish were probably hiding and not eating.
Here's an email question from Chad, from Malmo, Sweden. "I have a question about leader construction. I've heard you say before that you can lengthen your leader either by adding tippet at the end or by extending the butt. I'm wondering if this scenario makes sense. [00:26:30.605] I want to have as long a leader as possible but with as long a tippet as possible. Can I have a rather long butt section, say 4 to 5 feet, then a rather abrupt transition section, say 2 to 3 feet, and then my tippet at the end of, say, 3 to 5 feet? Essentially, I'm wondering if a longer butt section and a short transition section can translate to turning over a long, supple tippet. I have all this in mind for my 3-weight rod. With a standard tapered leader, I have a hard time turning [00:27:00.434] over very long tippets."
Well, Chad, the first thing I would suggest is that you try it. You can just maybe put together a couple different leader formulas and take them out to the nearest body of water and watch carefully how they straighten out or don't straighten out and how they perform. I think that [00:27:30.091] a really abrupt transition section tends to pile the tippet up. There's a whiplash motion where you have a really short transition section, and the tippet, instead of straightening out, piles up. That's sometimes what you want. If you have a tricky drag situation or you want to sink your nymph better, sometimes having your tippet pile up is not a bad thing at all. If you want your tippet [00:28:00.451] to straighten out, I think you're going to need the longer transition section. Say, if you're fishing a lake, I think that you're going to want a longer transition section. Again, there's nothing wrong with tippet piling up, which you would get with that really abrupt transition. You need a smooth transmission of energy to turn that very thin, air-resistant tippet over. [00:28:30.493] You're going to reach a point where your tippet is just going to be too long to straighten properly. It's just physics. You either have to deal with that, or you have to show your tippet. Again, if you're fishing in a stream, don't worry so much about that tippet totally straightening out because it's not always what you want.
Here's an email from [00:29:00.779] Matt from Texas. "I'm a huge fan of your podcast and the work that Orvis does. I appreciate all the great content. Definitely adds a lot to my fly fishing journey and has helped me grow by leaps and bounds as I grow my 30th year since beginning fly fishing. I'm a fishery biologist in Central Texas that works primarily in largemouth bass. My graduate degree was in biochemistry. Okay, enough about me. I appreciate your recent podcast about preserving native species in some streams around [00:29:30.292] the U.S. This is a valuable undertaking that is worthy of air time. I approve wholeheartedly of the judicious use of rotenone in select circumstances to complete this work. I use this piscicide on a fairly regular basis in our work with ponds and lakes. Its use as a tool to preserve genetic diversity and create specific fishery outcomes is absolutely essential.
Ted Williams's work in advocacy [00:30:00.286] is certainly much appreciated and well-needed to preserve diversity in trout while not being absolutist or going overboard with trying to eliminate all non-natives everywhere. I did want to suggest one amendment to his statements. While rotenone, when used according to the label and with all the needed protective equipment, is safe and fully justified in use, rotenone should be treated with respect as its link to Parkinson's is about as well researched [00:30:30.560] as most safety studies on most industrial chemistries. The research is repeated by multiple entities and not a single one-off study. While I'm sure that some people may want to politically weaponize these studies to stop environmental stewardship, it is unreasonable to do so. My main goal in writing this email is to continue to encourage fisheries technicians to observe safety protocol when handling rotenone and to give the tool [00:31:00.623] the appropriate respect so that we have the tool when needed for many years to come. Thanks again for all the hard work, and thanks to Ted for all his work as well." Well, thank you, Matt, for that caution and for the support of the use of rotenone.
Here's an email from John from Washington. "Related to fish vision and lake fishing. If a trout chooses to eat a midge larva or pupa in 16 inches of water, what role does color play? I am aware [00:31:30.506] of the four keys to trout decision-making based on your podcast with Jason Randall's size, shape, color, and animation. A midge or chironomid fly is hanging a foot off the bottom, clear water, no wind. The trout eats it or leaves it. Much of your discussion was on stream vision and other factors, but what about lakes at depth? Many lake fishing tires are committed to throat samples of recently eaten bugs and matching color and size exactly. What are your thoughts, please, given Jason's research-based [00:32:00.419] explanations? So, the question is why does a trout eat or reject the imitation?"
Well, John, if I knew why a trout ate or rejected an imitation every time, I'd probably be a millionaire, or at least I'd have an even more popular podcast. And I don't know why a trout eats or rejects the imitation. It probably varies from fish to fish, and from day to day, and from water to water. So, I can't answer that question. [00:32:30.435] I can tell you that the color, even though you're fishing deeper in a lake than you might be in a stream, your colors are going to appear about the same as they do at the surface. The color red disappears quickest because it has the longest wavelength, and blue is the last color to disappear. [00:33:00.339] So, the longer wavelengths at depth, they start to look black. But we're talking about 70, 75 feet for the color red in clear water. So, I don't think it really applies to fly fishing. Is color important? That's the million-dollar question. In my opinion, you might as well try to match the color that you know the fish are eating. But if you [00:33:30.213] can't, try to get as close as you can. And if you can't get close, throw it out there and see what happens. Fish have been known to eat all kinds of wild colors that look like nothing in nature and maybe it's just an attractant. So, I'm sorry, I can't give you a good solid answer for your question about whether a trout eats or rejects the imitation. But just know that the color is going to be [00:34:00.129] the same when you're fly fishing, regardless of depth.
Here's an email from Ralph from Florida. "I just wanted to commend you and Brandon Hoffner on the amazing podcast about the Henry's Fork River. I listened because I've had the privilege of standing in and fishing the railroad ranch section a couple times, but the podcast turned out to be informative on so many levels beyond fishing. I am most impressed with the manner in which Brandon and his colleagues have marshaled [00:34:30.547] supporters, government, and stakeholders to tackle the increasingly complex issues around water management and conservation. No wonder that wonderful fishery is in such great shape. The lessons from the Henry's Fork would serve well in many other places, and I hope public, private, and non-profit organizations with other waters in their charge are inspired by and learned from the Henry's Fork Foundation's efforts. Brandon laid out the critical importance of a constant and multifaceted approach [00:35:00.499] to management through scientific study and committed to strategies that are feasible and work for all stakeholders in order to validate the investment in the waters and pave the way for the survival of the resource through the increasingly challenging times ahead. That is a heavy load, but they're doing it.
I lived for a number of years on the Toccoa River tailwater in North Georgia and try as we might through our local Trout Unlimited chapter, it was difficult to scratch the surface on influencing effective [00:35:30.378] water management. It may be apples and oranges with a TVA tailwater in a more populated area versus the situation on the Henry's Fork. But balancing available water in a series of reservoirs in a complex system like we have in the southeast sounded somewhat similar to the issue of balancing water availability in the Henry's Fork watershed. Leverage is what we lacked. As population and climate issues increase, we all need to be more forward-thinking about water management for reasons well [00:36:00.287] beyond fishing. But if preserving or creating a healthy trout fisheries invokes more responsible water management and conservation, it is a net gain for everyone. Kudos to Brandon and all those helping him with this mission. Please thank Brandon for me and thanks for all you do, Tom. I have been a fan for many years."
Well, thank you, Ralph. And I wouldn't give up on your TVA tailwaters because there's nothing [00:36:30.300] more powerful in the western United States than the agricultural industry. And the Henry's Fork Foundation has been able to work with irrigators and other water users to try to establish better flows. So, it's not beyond the possible that you can have more success getting better flows on those tailwaters in the [00:37:00.867] southeast. But you do need to work, and you need to have a dialogue with the people in charge. So, try again and don't give up.
Here's an email from Daniel. "I have been invited to a destination wedding in Soldotna, Alaska, in August. From what I understand, this is supposed to be a really good place to fish. I'm hoping to do some fly fishing while I'm there. I have a 5-weight rod and reel combo that I bought about a year [00:37:30.613] ago when I took an introductory fly fishing class. Would this be a good rod to take, or should I just use what the guide would provide? Should I consider upgrading to a better rod and reel? If so, what weight? I would like to purchase an Orvis rod and reel, but I'm unsure which would be the best for my level of skill and experience. Also, my fly-casting skills still need improvement. Would you suggest I seek out a private lesson before I embark on this adventure?" Well, Daniel, first of all, [00:38:00.861] I would absolutely suggest that you take a private lesson, or that you practice on your own using some YouTube videos or whatever, or find a friend that's a decent instructor. There's nothing worse than going on a trip to somewhere far away and relatively expensive and paying for a guide and then realizing that you can't cast that well, you can't put the fly where you want it to go. So, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely get a lesson or [00:38:30.279] somehow improve your casting before you go.
Regarding that 5-weight, it'll be good for smaller trout and grayling, but you're possibly going to encounter much bigger fish, possibly some Pacific salmon, silver salmon, maybe in August, and you're going to be undergunned with that 5-weight. A second rod to have for Alaska would [00:39:00.445] probably be a 10-foot-7-weight or a 10-foot-8-weight. You do want a reel with a decent drag. You don't need to buy the most expensive reel, but you should have a reel with a sealed drag and one that's a nice smooth drag, you know, at the least a mid-priced large armor reel like the Hydros would probably be a good reel. But a 7-weight, 8-weight, you're going to need that. You're [00:39:30.326] going to be fishing bigger flies, probably some split shot. So, you're going to need a little bit more beef in your rod than a 5-weight can provide.
Here's an email from Porcupine. "I very much enjoyed the recent podcast about balance exercises and training. The issue strikes home with me because after nearly six decades of scrambling up mountains and skittering through white water, a couple years ago I suffered a painful back injury that left me unable [00:40:00.430] to even walk to the mailbox for over six weeks. The rehab from that injury has been a years-long process of regaining strength and balance. I have been feeling pretty good about my progress until you and your know-it-all guest pointed out all the ways I am compensating cheating on my exercises. Now, they are all more difficult again, but definitely more productive. My tip for your listeners involves finding a place, time, and place to get those exercises done [00:40:30.687] because we all know this is one more thing we should be doing, but it's hard to stick with more daily exercises.
If you use an electric toothbrush, then you are standing still for two minutes every night when you brush. This is a perfect opportunity to do those two-footed and one-footed balance exercises. I find it remarkable how helpful they are if done every day, even for just two minutes. They help not just with balance, but with back stability and back strength. And for those of you out there thinking, [00:41:00.671] my back is fine, if you live long enough, it won't be. Start protecting it now. The prospect of never being able to get back on the water is frightening. It's not catching fish that is good for the soul, it is being able to visit their watery home, and that means being able to cover uneven ground. Thanks for including a wide range of topics in your podcast." Well, thank you very much, Porcupine. And that's a good idea. I've been brushing my teeth on one foot [00:41:30.269] for the past week or so since I read your email.
Daniel: Hey, Tom. This is Daniel from Colorado, and I'm calling in with an answer for Andrew from the April 14th episode. He was wondering about tips for tying the line onto the bend of a hook to create a dropper, and I thought I'd share something of mine that I figured out. After I tie on the upper fly, what I'll typically do is hold that fly in my [00:42:00.275] right hand, my dominant hand, and actually catch a little bit of skin on my middle finger with the tip of that hook. Seems like it kind of stabilizes it and gives me something to twist against. And then it also gives me a closed loop so the line won't slide off. And then you can just feed the line through that open loop and tie it just like you'd regularly tie on any other fly. So, I hope that helps you, Andrew. And, Tom, I hope this works for you. And, yeah, thanks for all you do. Love the show. Catch you later.
Tom: [00:42:30.122] Well, Daniel, that sounds like a very good tip. And I'm honestly a little surprised at all the people who express problems tying a tippet around the bend of a hook. It's not that hard, and there's been a lot of clever ways to do it that have been submitted to the podcast. So, I didn't even know how [00:43:00.293] I was doing it. But I knew that I didn't have any trouble doing it, I guess, because I've been doing it for years. But I analyzed how I'm doing it. And here's how I do it without sticking a fly in my finger. So, what I do is I hold the fly by the eye in the tips of my thumb and forefinger. Then I grab the tippet in my mouth just to hold on to it. Then I move my fingers up to cover [00:43:30.399] the bend of the hook so the tippet stays trapped there, then I just tie a clinch knot and tighten it. By the way, boy, I don't know what us fly fishers would do without our mouth. I find myself needing that third hand so many times. And, boy, putting something in your mouth can really help you with a lot of different knots and a lot of different things that you do on the river. So, bear that in mind. All right. [00:44:00.453] That is a Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Tim West about deciding what fly to put on. All right. So, my guest today is my friend Tim West. And Tim is the owner of Breckenridge Outfitters in Breckenridge, Colorado, and the recipient of the 2024...is it '23 or '24?
Tim: '24.
Tom: '24. Okay. You just got the award, [00:44:30.546] but I couldn't remember if they call it the '23 or the '24. Anyways, the 2024 Orvis Endorsed Outfitter of the Year. And this is a big deal. It's a big deal to people that are in our program and should be a big deal to customers and clients because these are determined by customer reports and customer testimonials, not by someone in an Orvis office deciding [00:45:00.334] who's going to get the award. So, it really means a lot. And congratulations, Tim, to you and your great crew.
Tim: Well, thank you so much. And I just sweep the floors and sign the checks. It's really hats off to my staff. I've got an incredible staff from top to bottom, a great set of guides, the shop staff. I mean, everybody, our entire team, they work as a team, and they're just so proud of this accomplishment. And I [00:45:30.457] just couldn't be more proud to be a part of that team. And so, hats off to them. It's really just an incredible accomplishment for them.
Tom: Yeah. And you actually have the, I don't know, was it 2020 or 2021 Orvis Endorsed Guide of the Year and Chip Swanson on your staff? So, you're racking up the awards, man.
Tim: 2019...
Tom: 2019.
Tim: ...Orvis Guide of the Year for Chip. And that year, we were one of the finalists for [00:46:00.066] Outfit of the Year. And then we also won Outfit of the Year in 2016. I think we've got four or five others that were previous ownerships prior to my time at the helm. But as far as Breckenridge Outfitters goes, pretty awesome tradition and lineage here and just super proud to see it continue.
Tom: Yeah. It's a great shop. I do presentation there once a year when I hit the [00:46:30.042] Colorado area, and I'm looking forward to seeing you guys in July. I always have so much fun in your shop. You know, it's just a party atmosphere in there. It's really everybody smiling and laughing and having fun. It's a great place.
Tim: You know, that's our main thing. You know, the culture is what we really harp on around here. And that bleeds into, you know, our clients and our customers, but it really starts with our staff. Our staff is just so [00:47:00.212] bought into what we provide and what we do. And, gosh, we just rate up with it. We love what we do. We feel like we're just the luckiest people. You know, we've got the greatest office in the world, and we're just so proud to not only be a part of the Orvis partnership, but, you know, have you come and have some of our special events that we do. It's just incredible. So, we are just so happy about what we do, and we hope that everyone feels that [00:47:30.432] whenever they come in.
Tom: Well, you can tell. You can tell. It's apparent. So, anyway, we're going to do some fishing talk today. And one of the things I wanted to talk to you about is because...I get this question a lot is, so, you're on a stream, and you don't really know what to do. There's no fish rising, and you don't know what fly to put on, you don't know where to start. What [00:48:00.718] do you do? What goes through your mind when you're trying to decide what to do?
Tim: Well, I'll tell you, you know, this is definitely a loaded question, and I think that there's a lot of opinions out there. But I say that, you know, start, even if you are an angler that has been out there, you know, for 20, 30 years fishing, go back to the basics, right? [00:48:30.476] And what I mean by that is we all started, you know, getting told, "Hey, pick up a rock, you know, notice your surroundings. Is there anything flying around?" So, start at those things. I also say to maybe, you know, whenever you're walking to a stream, a lot of people get too focused on being on the [00:49:00.290] stream bank to notice what is around them. I think that that process should start 50 or 100 yards from the river. But I would say that size of things really kind of matters. We could talk about stimulator patterns, we could talk about, you know, different species. If it's an area that maybe you fished before [00:49:30.178] and have any knowledge of, say, what hatches have been occurring on that river in the past or what insects may be around in that vicinity, starting with some of those tricks of playing around with...if you know that streams nearby or that stream, in particular, is known for mayflies, start with a mayfly, and play around with sizes and tones or colors of different mayfly [00:50:00.988] patterns.
You know, there's a lot of other things that go into this, maybe time of year, water temperature, sunny, or cloudy skies. I think that there's a lot of things that really matter in this kind of fly selection. I think that also anglers, much like trout, are also creatures of habit. And what I mean by that is I think we're all guilty of having maybe [00:50:30.538] five or seven flies that just work, right? Like, I imagine you, Tom Rosenbauer, has a handful of flies that, you know, maybe you just would not leave home without, and sometimes are the first things to get selected out of your box when there's nothing going on. And I think that a lot of us kind of have those mentalities or those [00:51:00.098] traits of just kind of what we're used to.
But I think that there's definitely something to be said about, you know, thinking about whenever you approach a river and nothing is happening, you can kind of go rules of deduction. And what I mean by that is kind of, you know, if you do not see in top water activity and you're in a run or a hole that you just you're convinced, [00:51:30.852] there's absolutely fish there. Well, if there's nothing rising to the top, or you don't visually see any fish, well, let's take off the, you know, maybe smaller dry flies instead of going to an attractor pattern or a stimulator pattern up top. We can probably go subsurface. Now, in that, start thinking about water columns, start thinking about whenever you're first testing these things out, what water column based on [00:52:00.167] water temperature, water flow, you know, clarity, all of these factors, start thinking about those and where if you were a fish, where would you be sitting?
Would you be sitting, you know, along the bottom? Is the water temperature such that you're looking for a mergers, you know, maybe into that middle or, you know, just the low subsurface water column? And play around with your depth, you know? As I am trying to learn a new structure [00:52:30.419] river, knowing nothing, don't see any bugs, picked up some rocks, there's no bugs anywhere, you know, maybe I'll start playing with different flies in different water columns and trying to adjust my depth. You know, I think that there's a lot to that.
Tom: Now, when you adjust your depth, talking of nymph fishing now, when you adjust the depth, do you adjust your indicator, or do you adjust your tippet length?
Tim: [00:53:00.788] Well, depends on the depth of the stream. So, it would depend on, you know, how deep I'm trying to go, but more often than not, I'm adjusting my tippet length.
Tom: Yeah, me too.
Tim: A lot of times I don't adjust the leader length unless I'm just adding a stretch of leader and more times I add more tippet to the direct leader whenever I'm trying to get a long leader for a picky dry fly, an eater that's late summer [00:53:30.842] and mouth hurts and more of the trick, the dupe that we're going for there. So, I normally adjust the length between my flies with tippet to get into different depths.
Tom: Yeah. You know, I used to move the indicator up and down my leader, but moving the indicator up to the thicker part of your leader doesn't really help much because that's thick and it doesn't sink [00:54:00.251] that well. And so, I've learned something really from the Euro nymph people, the tight line people, is that your tippet needs to be thin so that the fly gets it down there quickly. And instead of sliding my indicator, I will sometimes, but most of the time, I will just put my indicator right at the end of my leader, right before my tippet, and then put a 3, 4, 5-inch [00:54:30.196] section of tippet there. And I find it's easier to mend that way, and, yeah, it just works better for me. I agree with you.
Tim: Well, and I think that some of those adjustments, you know, really come to that water column and the depth, you know, topic. And really, people come into the shop all the time, "Hey, what distance should I be between my flies?" And I think that, you know, everybody has their own number, you know, [00:55:00.734] 18 inches, or 24 inches, or 12. Everybody's got their own number. But I think that it even goes a little further than that in thinking about the actual water column and what fly you're going to tie on in that order. And so, what I mean by that is if you're tying on two heavier bugs, maybe they don't need to be 18 inches away from each other because of the depth that they're actually going to be [00:55:30.280] in the water column. You know, here in Colorado, we can fish up to three flies. I know that's different all over the place. There's a lot of states that you can only fish two, that kind of stuff. So, maybe thinking out of the box and not getting so stuck in the rule book of this is how it has to happen and playing around with different sections of your tippet in between certain flies so they can get to [00:56:00.310] the water column that they're intended to be in and where those fish are actually sitting and feeding.
And I think that there's a lot to the just thinking outside of the box. And one thing about that is everything that I'm saying today may not work for anyone else. And that's kind of the fun aspect of this is maybe having a starting point, but playing around to see what works for you. [00:56:30.132] And that kind of goes toward the root of our conversation of what you do whenever there is no bug activity. You cannot match a hatch. You cannot visually see anything going on. That's kind of the fun of it is playing around with sizes, you know, different fly species, different links, and different weights, and different colors, and profiles, and that kind of thing. [00:57:00.635] I think that if we all just went out and caught a bunch of fish in a hurry, it would be kind of boring.
Tom: Yeah, well, sure would.
Tim: It's all about the dupe. And sometimes that gets frustrating, but don't let the frustration kind of overtake the sensation of dialing in and really picking it apart and then saying, "Wow, I did that," you know? That's a lot of fun.
Tom: It is. It's the puzzle. It's why we do it, [00:57:30.592] right? Because we're just catching stupid little fish and then we're letting them go. We're not even eating them. So, it's all about food. Tim, let's back up a bit and let's talk about when you would fish...you mainly been talking about fishing nymphs. Let's talk about when you would fish a nymph or two nymphs in most people's cases, when you would fish maybe a dry dropper, [00:58:00.223] or when you would fish a streamer.
Tim: Sure. So, the dry dropper thing, a lot of times, it has to do with water conditions, it'll have to do with maybe depths of the water. Say I'm fishing pre-runoff early spring on the South Platte here near us, and it's pretty low water, and you really don't have the space or the depth [00:58:30.460] to run a nymph rig. A lot of times that dry dropper is a great way to accomplish still nymph fishing in some of those tighter stretches or shallower stretches. Another thing is clarity of water. Sometimes I find that the dry dropper, if it's a real clear day, there's a lot of people that'll say, "Oh, these fish are indicator shy," [00:59:00.717] or that kind of stuff. Sometimes just putting something more realistic and using it solely as your indicator with a hope for an eat up top is a great, great method and it works. A lot of times people will just throw that indicator fly and really take to heart what I was just saying of, "Oh, I don't even think I'm going to catch a fish up top." Never rule that [00:59:30.610] out.
Tom: Yeah, that's for sure.
Tim: How many times you think, "Oh, this water, I mean, it's 10 inches of clarity. There's no way I'm going to get a dry eat. I'm just going to try to swing a San Juan underneath and pick off a couple of fish"? Well, it's pretty surprising how many times those fish will come up and eat up top. Playing around with that, not getting pigeonholed into, "Well, this is my indicator fly, [01:00:00.495] and this is the only one I'm going to fish because they're not eating up top, so I'm just going to start changing my subsurface flies," well, if you're not getting eats on that, maybe pick something similar in a different profile or a different color or something up top. You never know what could happen.
Tom: Yeah. Now, when would you use an indicator as opposed to a dry dropper? What are the situations in which you would switch to an indicator? [01:00:31.790]
Tim: A lot of times I will fish a indicator rig in some of the deeper sections of river, or even some of the faster moving waters, especially bigger rivers, things like that. There's a lot of factors that go into that. It's interesting. I would say that generally whenever I go fish, I more [01:01:00.521] than not have more than one rod in my hand. I'll carry two rods, usually. A lot of times, I'll have a streamer rod and a dry dropper rod, or a streamer rod and a nymph rod, depending on the conditions, and try multiple things. For the most part, a nymph rig is generally for some of those deeper sections that I don't think that a dry dropper is going to necessarily work. Not [01:01:30.195] to say that in deeper sections of river you can't tie on a longer piece of tippet and a longer dropper section on your dry dropper setup. You'll have to manage weight and how that flow looks. Mending can get a little different, depending on the water section and what that looks like. I would say that I always like to fish a dry dropper over a solid nymph rig if I can get away with it. Who doesn't like to even have the opportunity for a dry [01:02:00.314] fly eat? We also have overlooked my favorite thing, which is the streamer fishing.
Tom: When would you start out with a streamer? When would you say, "Oh, I'm going to fish a streamer in here"?
Tim: It's interesting. I would say that there's a lot of streamer junkies that I definitely know that that might be what they start out with. It doesn't matter what they're seeing on the water. [01:02:30.275] That's just what they're into. I am a little guilty of that. I definitely enjoy throwing streamers. I would say that if there is a magnificent dry fly hatch, I would have a hard time throwing a streamer when I'm seeing heads. That would be hard to come off of. Throwing streamers is generally effective coming right out of ice off. Fish are starting [01:03:00.497] to come out of their slower metabolisms and a little bit more energy. Water temps are warming up a little bit. Getting those streamer activity started, especially as a lot of the heavy bug activity hasn't really begun. The streamer fishing in the spring and the fall is hands-down my favorite time to fish streamers and [01:03:30.177] go all over the map in terms of selection there. There's the old-time conversation that people have about, "Oh, bright fly, bright day, dark fly, dark day," that kind of thing. But I think it's all over the board. I think it's just more getting out there and seeing what you like and what's working on that day.
Tom: Yeah. So, do you believe in bright fly, bright day, [01:04:00.364] dark day, dark fly?
Tim: I would say that I am 50/50 on that. I would say that sometimes it definitely works and other times it doesn't. Sometimes maybe I'll start that way and then kind of bleed off of it. And what I mean by bleed off of it, maybe on a bright sunny day, I start with a chartreuse or a white, and then maybe I go to a [01:04:30.564] cream or a tan. Maybe I go from shade, and I don't just go, "Oh, chartreuse wasn't working. I'm going black." Maybe I come off of that. Maybe it's a good starting point. But I don't notice all the time that that really is the case.
Tom: When do you pick a real flashy streamer like Acrylics or a Montana Intruder or something like that? Any special [01:05:00.259] cases where you would start out with a really flashy one?
Tim: I would say that whenever I start using those types of flashier imitations, it's going to be when fish kind of need that little extra reason, something that's just a little bit more flashy, a little bit more of an attention-getter. And I would say [01:05:30.729] that sometimes in the summer, whenever maybe fish are gorging on a lot of things, a lot of times, or maybe they're just being more selective or more picky, sometimes just that little extra added flash or flare to those flies can certainly help. That's when I personally go to that. I think that a lot of us [01:06:00.387] probably have our go-tos, and we probably stay with those for the most part. But it never hurts to go outside the box. And I would assume like most of your listeners, there's a reason why we carry so many.
Tom: Yeah. How about big versus small? How about like, say, a 1.5-inch streamer versus a 5-inch streamer? Any thoughts there on when you would pick a big one, when [01:06:30.269] you would start with a little one, smaller one?
Tim: I would say personally, I'm always a...first off, let's talk about species. I would say that a lot of that is species-driven and what we're actually targeting or what we are assuming that we're targeting. It's always surprising whenever you're targeting one thing. It could be in a still water application or somewhere where you don't anticipate to see a certain size [01:07:00.570] or a certain species of fish and that's what you end up getting. But thinking about the actual size of the streamer, I would say for the most part, I'm not usually apt to just dive right in and start fishing massive 5-inch double or triple articulated streamers at the get-go. And that's just my own [01:07:30.688] rule of thumb. There's probably a lot of people that are shaking their heads that are going, "Oh my gosh, he's missing out." But just in my personal experience, just that I usually fish smaller 4s and 6s. It's usually what are my go-tos. Not to say that I don't love casting a larger streamer at larger fish, lake trout, and pike, and [01:08:00.081] big browns, and things like that. Sometimes it'll certainly help them make their decision. Like I said, they're opportunistic and a bigger meal for not as much work as always, I'm sure, in their head.
But what I find works most for me is some of the smaller to medium range of streamers. Whenever I'm talking about streamers, I'm certainly not overlooking the tried and true Woolly Bugger, [01:08:30.465] a small 1.5-inch Woolly Bugger that mimics all kinds of things. I use it in nymph rigs, I'll use it as a streamer, I'll use it as a stinger on my streamer, things like that. There's a lot of ways to use that Woolly Bugger, which should never be overlooked.
Tom: No, never ever.
Tim: Yeah, which also goes back to initial selection. [01:09:00.129] I would say that on rivers or streams that you're going in blind and you have no idea what's hatching, having some sort of Woolly Bugger or any of those imitations, there's a bunch of different options in that world now. That is not a bad thing to start out with on a blind. That is certainly one of the ones that I would have on on a brand new stream, [01:09:30.245] not seeing any bug activity, sight unseen, not knowing, "Oh, I can almost guarantee you a Woolly Bugger or something of the similar is going to be on my rig."
Tom: Okay. What's your first color choice in a Woolly Bugger going to be? What's the first one you're going to put on?
Tim: The first one that I'm going to put on is either a black or an olive. That's going to be my go-to. I don't know how you can really say that a [01:10:00.261] black Woolly Bugger just doesn't do the trick or doesn't catch fish. It's interesting. They work and it's tried and true. As this whole fly game has evolved, it's interesting. The nuts and bolts, they're not as popular these days, kind of across the board. Just the newer variations of generally every fly in our fly bins are [01:10:30.418] really selling. I think there's something to the tried and trues. I think that there's a lot to going back to the basics.
Tom: Let's say you're in a stretch of river. You don't know the river. You don't even know how many fish are in there, how dense the population is. You're in a nice-looking piece of water. At least you think it looks nice, it looks fishy, and [01:11:00.332] you're not catching any fish. What's the first thing you're going to do? You're going to change flies, you're going to change presentation, or you're going to move, go somewhere else?
Tim: I'm going to change presentation. I am a huge proponent on do not get cement foot. I think that the vast majority of people are very quick to changing flies, changing colors, changing all of those things without taking [01:11:30.888] a couple steps to the left, a couple steps to the right, a couple steps to the middle, forward, backwards, just changing your drift, changing the look. I think that a natural-looking food source is going to get an eat 10 times more than a horribly presented fly that they're gorging on. That's just my rule of thumb, my personal [01:12:00.323] opinion. I truly believe in that. I think that making your drift and your presentation look as realistic as possible to whatever is in the water source is paramount. I believe that way more than even going into depth and color and leader size and tippet size, [01:12:30.326] I think a lot of those are almost minuscule in comparison to making sure that you have a proper presentation.
Tom: Just changing your angles one way or the other, either by casting in a different direction or moving your feet a little bit?
Tim: Yeah, absolutely. Figuring out that part of the puzzle. This fly fishing game that we all play has so many different aspects. We've touched on a lot of them. [01:13:00.249] Fly selection is one of them, the drift is one of them. There's a lot of different things, but putting yourself in the best possible position. Whether that is on the opposite side of the river, casting back to where you think they are, or maybe it's downstream, or even in some cases upstream. There's a lot of scenarios to catch fish and to get the proper presentation. Making sure your flies [01:13:30.509] are in the right location and looking as natural as possible is going to produce fish more than not.
Tom: Tim, question for you. More for my own curiosity, but I'm sure it'll be invaluable for my listeners. Turning over rocks. You figure you want to fish in the waters at a nice level. It's not too dirty, not too fast. [01:14:00.608] Nymphs are probably going to be the most reliable thing. Whether you're Euro-nymphing or indicator-nymphing or whatever, turn over some rocks, and you see a certain size and color of mayfly or stonefly nymphs or caddis. How often does that lead to success? Also, how often does it happen [01:14:30.697] that a nymph that doesn't look anything like what you've seen on the bottom prove to be a very successful fly? That's a long-loaded question.
Tim: It is, but the simple answer is you are looking at the menu. I can't stress to you how often that you pick up a rock. I would say that our anglers, especially in our beginner anglers [01:15:00.330] or kids love this. I love whenever we're out guiding, and we pick up a rock, and you show it to a younger angler. They're usually the ones that will actually pay attention and say, "Okay, here's my fly box. Here's the underside of the rock. Pick a couple of those flies. Put them in the lid of my fly box. I'm going to let you pick what you think they look like." I will tell you if that works, there is [01:15:30.395] gravitational pull. There is an excitement around them putting it together that they just did that. They picked the fly. They were the ones that did that. Of course, I'm talking about guiding, but this is something that anyone can do. I think that anyone would have this revelation or this feeling when they put it together. As a new angler, we still get excited, all of us, all of your listeners that are 40-year-plus anglers, the ones that are fishing every day. We still [01:16:00.831] get excited, and I'm not in that category, by the way. I haven't been fishing for 40 years, but that category of putting it together is still exciting. I would say turning over a rock is paramount to see the menu to understand more about what food sources in that river or that lake or any clues that you can gather are incredible.
I would say that success rate [01:16:30.237] on that has got to be way more than not. If I was to put a number on it, I'm going to say you're well above 50%, maybe 75% of the time that you can narrow it down to what's actually going on in that river. Now, on the flip side of that, now saying that that works 50%, 75% of the time, whatever, somewhere in that, that the other 20%, 25% of the time it doesn't work, well, [01:17:00.207] I would say that finding those kind of off-the-wall flies...not off-the-wall, they don't necessarily have to be something special, but something that is still a food source for the species that you are trying to catch, it doesn't mean that they're not going to eat that. I think that a lot of things go into selecting that fly and how you should [01:17:30.279] think about it. One of them would be what makes it different? What makes it look like a delicious food source for that trout, for instance? Does it have more movement? Are there legs on it? What is it mimicking? What's the attraction to it? And so, I would say if you're going rules of deduction on selecting that fly that [01:18:00.316] isn't present on that rock, thinking about what are the aspects of this fly that I'm selecting right now that are going to instigate and eat rather than, "Oh, I'm just going to pick one because I haven't used this fly in two years," just kind of blind luck type of thing. I think that you can methodically select what other things you're going to start using if [01:18:30.354] what you visually see on the bottom of a rock is not working.
Tom: And it still gives you some confidence, too. It gives you a roadmap. Well, it's a menu, as you said. It's their menu.
Tim: Yeah. And I would say that a lot of times how I get to this situation, and I'm sure you've been there, and I'm sure a lot of the listeners, you go out with a couple of buddies and maybe one person's on the struggle bus, and [01:19:00.117] they're like, "Oh my gosh, you're just crushing them up there. What were you using?" And you hand them a couple, and you tell them this is exactly what I've got on. You show them exactly what you got. They go back down and not working. The same exact thing is not working. Maybe it even gets to where like, "Oh, I've caught a bunch of fish in this hole. They're still eating. Come up here and catch a few, you know, friend fishing. You know what I'm saying?
Tom: Yeah.
Tim: And they'll go and they'll put the same flies through that [01:19:30.316] hole the same way and no eats. And I will tell you that that happens fairly often. And I can't explain that, but I know that that happens. A lot of us here at the shop, you know, fish together and that does often happen.
Tom: It does, it does.
Tim: And it's frustrating.
Tom: I think it's often the successful angler has just stumbled on to something that [01:20:00.346] he or she is doing just a little bit differently. And it's so subtle that we don't notice it, but somehow it gets the fly to the fish in the right way.
Tim: Absolutely. Going back to the presentation, I think that, you know, obviously not every single person has the same cast. Not every single person chooses to mend at the exact same time. I think that there's a lot to say about presentation of flies and getting them [01:20:30.592] in the correct place. And that kind of ties back to what I was saying earlier about, you know, to me, that matters a lot more than just the fly selection.
Tom: Yeah. Well, that is some great stuff, Tim. I think you've given us some good nuggets and some good pieces of advice on kind of the first fly you're going to try.
Tim: Yeah. You know, and I would say that, [01:21:00.372] you know, never back off of your nuts and bolts. And, you know, don't be afraid to also try new things, try new colors. I mean, there's a reason why every fly shop has, gosh, I don't even know how many thousands of different fly patterns are in some of the shops, but it's almost daunting and overwhelming at times. So, don't be afraid to, you know, have conversations with, you know, your local fly shop or, you know, fellow anglers and then see what they're doing that's [01:21:30.160] just a little different in certain flies. And also, don't be afraid to go back to the nuts and bolts when your tried and true new fancy fly is no longer successful.
Tom: Well, I remember the first time I ever saw a Woolly Bugger and it was before it was well known. It was a friend of mine who was fishing in the Catskills, and he knew Barry Beck who kind of popularized the Woolly Bugger, although Barry didn't invent it. A guy named Russell Blessing invented it. [01:22:00.276] But this guy showed me this fly, and I said, "That's not going to work." It's a woolly worm with a marabou tail. And it's all it is really. And I said, "That's not going to work. It's like dumb, stupid fly." Well, over the years, Tim, I've learned my lesson. Never rule out a fly that looks weird. So, yeah, you know, you may discover the next Woolly Bugger if you try something weird. [01:22:30.040]
Tim: Absolutely. Stay weird is the moral of that conversation, right?
Tom: Yeah, yeah. And I've tried a lot of weird things over the years, and they haven't worked. I keep trying.
Tim: That's it.
Tom: Yeah. All right, Tim. Well, again, I want to congratulate you and your entire staff for that fantastic award. We've been talking to Tim West of Breckenridge Outfitters, [01:23:00.347] and I look forward to seeing you in July.
Tim: Excellent. Well, I can't thank you enough, Tom. Always enjoy our conversations and looking forward to seeing you in July. And thank you, again, so much for everything. And just so proud of my staff on that award, and really, really excited for the future of Breckenridge Outfitters.
Tom: Yeah. Well, keep having fun out there.
Tim: We absolutely will. That's the culture, right?
Tom: Yep, that is. All right, Tim. Thanks again. [01:23:30.265]
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