Best Practices for Wader Care and Fit, with Natalie Cullum
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi. Welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast. This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer, and my guest this week is Natalie Cullum. Natalie is the outerwear developer for Orvis product developer. And Natalie is actually the designer of the [00:00:30.019] Orvis waders, raincoats. You know, anything technical that you wear outdoors, she's the one. And I get a lot of questions about wader fit, wader care, how to store your waders. And so, Natalie is going to answer these questions on the podcast today. And no better person than the person who actually develops the product and knows their ins and outs and knows the fabrics used and all the waterproofing that [00:01:00.130] goes into them. So, I hope you enjoy this, and I think it'll be a very educational podcast.
And before we get into the Fly Box, I just wanna give you heads-up on some places that you might wanna visit this year or maybe next year if you're planning a fishing trip. These are Orvis-endorsed operations, and you can find all the Orvis-endorsed operations by going to orvis.com/adventures. [00:01:30.480] There'll be an interactive map there. You can see what part of the country you wanna go to, and then look for the Orvis-endorsed guide, outfitter, or lodge in the area you wanna visit. Our first operation is a guide, Jeremy Nolan of Heads Up Fly Fishing. And Jeremy guides in a lesser-known and less pressured part of Southern Colorado, and he fishes from the Animas River that [00:02:00.129] runs right through the heart of downtown Durango. He's got private water options on exclusive ranches, high mountain creeks and lakes, and also lesser-known stretches of the world-famous San Juan River. So, they've got options, or he's got options for the needs of every angler, whether you're a rank beginner or an advanced fly fisher. They've got float and wade trips 365 days a year. So, if you're looking [00:02:30.150] to fish in Colorado and you wanna go to an area that's a little less pressured than the areas around Denver, you might wanna look into Jeremy's operation.
Next is an outfitter, Land of Enchantment Guides in New Mexico. And they fish a similar area to Jeremy, but they're further south there in New Mexico, although they do fish in Southern Colorado as well. And this [00:03:00.145] outfit is run by Noah Parker, who's been a podcast guest before, and he really knows his stuff. So, you know, Noah is a great resource. They got over 50 miles on the Chamas River, and they offer wade and float trips on all different kinds of water, from large rivers to high mountain streams and lakes. And they're all available in Northern New Mexico and Southern Colorado.
And [00:03:30.115] finally, our lodge of the week is the Woodstock Inn & Resort. This is pretty close to my home waters. And they offer float fishing on larger rivers like the White and the Ottauquechee, some local stock trout ponds, small streams, of course, in Vermont, and excellent smallmouth bass fishing very close by. They're located in Woodstock, Vermont, which is one of the most elegant and beautiful small towns in Vermont. And [00:04:00.585] the Woodstock Inn & Resort really defines country sophistication in one of New England's most really charming and popular vacation destinations. They've got a fort. So, this is a great place to go if you don't wanna fish the whole time or if you have a spouse or partner who doesn't fish. They've got a 4-star rated spa, a beautiful 18-hole golf course, [00:04:30.454] an expansive athletic club, mountain biking, hiking in the Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller National Historic Park and surrounding areas. They've got an authentic working farm, organic vegetable and flower gardens. They have New England falconry there, and the village itself is full of shops, dining, and gorgeous hiking views. So, it's a luxury getaway that you [00:05:00.014] can find only at the Woodstock Inn & Resort. And also, the Orvis flagship store is only about an hour away, so you could combine a trip to the Woodstock Inn with a tour of the flagship store and the rod shop if you come during the week. The rod shop tours are open. They offer them every day, Monday through Friday, at 10:30 a.m. in Manchester, Vermont.
Okay. Now, let's do the Fly Box. And the Fly Box is where you ask me questions, [00:05:30.274] and I try to provide an answer, or sometimes you share a tip with other listeners. And if you have a question, or a comment, or you would like to share a tip, you can send it to me at
So, Clarence, yeah, that Orvis tippet knot [00:06:30.115] is a great knot. It's, actually, in my opinion, as strong or stronger than the blood knot. Personally, I find it more difficult to tie than the blood knot, but that's probably because I've been tying blood knots all my life. So, yes, it's an excellent knot. It's not quite as smooth and clean as the blood knot, but it's equally as strong in my experience. And your email reminds me that I should go back and practice it [00:07:00.134] more and use it more. And if you don't know how to tie the Orvis tippet knot, you can find it on the internet or in a package of Orvis leaders that you buy, there'll be a little diagram and instructions on how to tie the Orvis tippet knot.
Next is an email from Fred. "Do you think there is a chance that dry fly purism could make a comeback? With all this euro mumbo jumbo and adding weight to flies, isn't it really more like cane pole fishing? [00:07:30.149] After all, it's the cast of a fly that differentiates fly fishing from spinning. And to be honest, you could probably fish nymphs and streamers better with a spinning rod. A trout caught on a dry fly is worth 10 underwater. If fishing is all about catching fish, shouldn't we just use live bait?" Well, Fred, actually, I hope dry fly purism doesn't come back. I hope no form of purism comes back to dominate the fly-fishing world. I [00:08:00.089] find it fascinating to fish with nymphs, and sometimes you need to add weight or weighted flies to catch fish. And honestly, I like catching fish. And I think that restricting yourself to one type of fly is fine if you wanna do it. But I wouldn't wanna urge anyone who's interested in fly fishing not to explore all the different kinds of ways you can catch fish [00:08:30.540] on a fly.
JG: Hello, Tom. This is JG from North Carolina. I have a question on wading boots and then on the pack that you bring out on the water with you. First for the wading boots, I currently wear a street size 14 shoe, which means that I size up to a size 15 wading boot typically. And it can be really difficult to find size 15 wading boots. [00:09:00.029] I know right now, Orvis just makes the Clearwater in size 15, but I've had my eye on the PROs for a while now. And when I was finally ready to pull the trigger, I realized that you guys don't make a size 15 in the PROs. So, I was curious for us bigfoots out there, are there plans to make larger sizes in any of the wading boots that you guys currently produce? And specifically for the PROs, that would be great to get [00:09:30.230] some feedback on that. I wouldn't mind holding off on my purchase if that means that I can get into the boot that I want. For the second question, you know, there are things that everybody brings out on the water with them, nippers, floating, sunglasses, a hat, you know, your net, things like that. Is there anything that you think we might find unique that you bring [00:10:00.100] out on the water with you? Whether you're far away from your car, close to your car, whether you're on big water or small water, is there an item or anything like that that you bring out on the water that might surprise us? I think we'd all like to know that. Thanks for your time and tight lines.
Tom: So, JG, first of all, I sympathize with you. You know, if you have a foot that large or sometimes a really small [00:10:30.179] foot, it's difficult to find wading boots in the size you need. And I think that for the time being, you're gonna have to stick with the Clearwaters. The problem is it's a technical problem in manufacturing. When you add a new size of wading boots, you have to build a new last, and you have to pay for that. And then you have to order a minimum number, and, unfortunately, it's [00:11:00.110] just not economically viable for companies to add a new size that's not gonna sell that many pairs. We do have the size 15 in the Clearwater, and I'm afraid for now that's what you're gonna have to go with. Now, there is a rumor that we'll be adding size 15 to the PRO boots, but that's not gonna be [00:11:30.304] for a while. Like, maybe 2027 from what I understand. So, use the Clearwaters for now, and, hopefully, in the future, we'll be able to fit you.
Regarding stuff that I bring that other people might not bring on the water with me, I pretty much carry standard stuff. I do carry a throat pump. I don't use it that often, but [00:12:00.394] I do carry a throat pump when I'm really, really curious about what the fish have been eating, and I don't wanna kill a fish to open its stomach. I carry that. The other thing I carry that most people don't is an elastic paint strainer, a 5-gallon elastic paint strainer. I've talked about this on the podcast before. You stretch it over your net, and it's white and it's very fine mesh. And it's great for capturing what's [00:12:30.225] in the drift, or if you want to put it in the water and kick a few rocks upstream of it, it's really great for finding out what nymphs are in the water. And that thing folds into nothing, and I think they're two for, like, 5 bucks. So, it's really inexpensive.
And then I'll carry a little roll of duct tape. Duct tape is great for all kinds of repairs. In a pinch, it'll patch a hole in your waders, a temporary patch. So, you know, it's always good to have [00:13:00.004] duct tape. But other than that, you know, I carry way too many strike indicators, and I hardly ever use them. But I do carry all different kinds. I carry a couple kinds of split shot, probably more than most people do. And I don't use that as much, but I always wanna have it with me. Other than that, I carry lots of flies and a couple power bars or something in my vest because I don't like to stop to eat when I'm fishing.
[00:13:30.284] Here's an email from Tim. "Does a saltwater line cast worse in freshwater? Last week, I did some surf fishing on my 7-weight with a Hydros Coldwater Intermediate saltwater line. I was able to consistently cast my fly 50 feet with 5 to 10 miles per hour of wind coming perpendicular to my cast. At this very moment, I am currently sitting on a paddle board in a municipal lake, and I am using the exact same setup to fish for large [00:14:00.174] mouth bass. For the life of me, I cannot get the line to shoot. I'm casting maybe 20 to 30 feet. There's definitely not more wind here than on the beach. The line even feels stiffer in the guides, but maybe that is mental. So, is it me or the line that's the problem? Anyway, thanks for your time and any insights."
So, Tim, there's a couple of things that could be happening here. One is water temperature. Is the water that you're fishing really warm? Because the cold [00:14:30.154] water lines up to water that's about, I don't know, 65, 70 degrees perform better. But once the water temperature and the air temperature get really warm, that line will get a little sticky. And so, if the water is warmer where you're fishing now, that could be the problem. You may need to get a warm water line. There's really no difference in saltwater and freshwater lines. It's more cold water [00:15:00.735] and warm water. And we think of warm water lines which have a different coating and a different core. They have a monofilament core, which performs better in really hot weather. And they're more designed for tropical conditions, not necessarily saltwater. And you may be in a situation that's similar to tropical conditions.
So, there's a couple other things [00:15:30.075] that could be happening. One is, did you clean your line in between saltwater and freshwater fishing? Because salt can add a layer of salt crystals to your line, and that may be slowing the line down. So, I would take the line and just put it in a bowl with some lukewarm water and a little bit of dish soap, and then run it through a piece of paper towel to clean it off and put quite a bit of pressure [00:16:00.054] on that line. Clean off any salt or debris that might have gotten on it from the saltwater. And finally, the leader you use can make a big difference in the way the line casts, the way it feels. You might have been using a shorter, stiffer leader in saltwater. And if you went to a longer, finer leader in fresh water, yeah, it's gonna make a difference, and it's not gonna feel like it's casting as well. And then fly size. Are you using maybe a [00:16:30.044] bigger, more wind-resistant fly than you did in saltwater? Probably not. But that's another thing. So, there are a number of things that could be going on, and I hope one of those things solves your problem because that's a great line and should be performing well for you.
Here's an email from Kenny from Austin, Texas. "Long time listener, first time caller. Thanks for the show and everything you and Orvis do to support the sport. I've been tying flies for about five years now, [00:17:00.274] ever since my son and I took one of Orvis' free fly-tying clinics. We had a great time learning the basics with Shane, the fly-fishing manager at the Austin Arboretum Store. After the introductory class and an intermediate session the next day, I walked out with a new Renzetti vise and a pile of materials, and I've been tying ever since. Freshwater or salt, I'll tie it all, bugs, streamers, crab, shrimp, crawfish, and the occasional Frankenstein pattern. They may not be always pretty, [00:17:30.234] but they catch fish. Lately, I've been trying to get the most out of my materials and reduced waste, which brings me to a question. Do you have any suggestions for how to use the fluffy base fibers from Coq de Leon feathers? I'd love to find a good use for them rather than just letting them go to waste."
Well, yeah, you know, sometimes there is a bit of waste in fly-tying materials, and you can't use everything, Kenny. But I can think of a couple ways you can use that fluffy stuff. One is you can [00:18:00.194] use it instead of CDC on an emerger fly. It'll work pretty well. It's almost as fine as CDC feathers. And you could also use it as a collar on a nymph. Maybe spin it in a dubbing loop and use it as a collar on a nymph. It'll hold air bubbles. And as long as your nymph is heavy enough, it'll have a good appearance underwater holding those air bubbles. [00:18:30.315] And then finally, you can use it as a dubbing. You can dub down at the base of a feather on a hook for dubbing, and it floats pretty well. So, those are a few suggestions. But, you know, I wouldn't worry about waste. You're gonna waste some parts of feathers and hairs and stuff when you're tying flies. But I appreciate you trying to use everything you can.
Here's an email from Axel. "Do you have [00:19:00.115] any tips for dry flies in saltwater? I hate blindfishing. And when I see fish rise, I wanna know what they take. And it would be fun to take a sea trout in the ocean on drys. If you also have any tips on how, it would be cool." Now, Axel, you know, a standard dry fly isn't gonna work that well in the ocean because there's no insects in the ocean. And you will occasionally see floating [00:19:30.535] crabs, and, you know, you could use a floating crab imitation in saltwater. But probably, when you see rises in saltwater, they're taking shrimp, or they're taking small bait fish. So, you know, a small popper or a gurgler type fly, if you see the fish busting the surface, sometimes fish just roll in saltwater, particularly sea trout. [00:20:00.015] Sometimes they just roll, and they're not actually rising. It's a behavioral thing and no one knows exactly why they do it. But I would try a small gurgler, or a little popper, or a floating minnow-type fly, and I would leave the dry flies at home. I don't think you're gonna have much use for standard dry flies in saltwater.
Here's an email from Hunter. "I know you may be aware of [00:20:30.009] the current situation of public lands being sold as part of the Inflation Reduction Act. Obviously, this is a terrifying thought as an avid outdoorsman, much like yourself, and this brought up an interesting topic around Trout Camp. Could, theoretically, a private or group of private organizations, like Trout Unlimited, Pheasants Forever, or Backcountry Hunters & Anglers, to name a few, get together and purchase these public land parcels and return them to the public? Obviously, this would mean creating some kind of [00:21:00.009] board of directors much like the national parks department or something to combat this extremely dangerous and controversial move. Just some thoughts from a trout bum, but I wanted to get your opinions. They make for a good conversation. Appreciate all you do. Keep killing it."
So, Hunter, there actually is an organization that does this. It's called the Western Rivers Conservancy, and it's a great organization. What they do is they will [00:21:30.410] search out parcels of private land that are for sale. They'll purchase the land. They'll improve the habitat. So, you know, stream bank maintenance, or perhaps planting trees, or fixing access to a tributary. And then once they do this, they'll sell it or donate it to the state or sometimes the federal government [00:22:00.559] and restore public access on what was once private land. So, this is a great organization. Of course, they can't do it all, and it costs money, a lot of money. But I think that this is one organization that's doing it right. And hopefully, they'll be able to continue their operations with more public support. I don't know of any similar organization in the Eastern United States, but it's not [00:22:30.049] as much of a problem as it is in the Western United States.
Here's an email from Harris in Spain. "I'm gonna tell you a story. I was nymphing, and I got a bite. Then I got another bite. I caught two 5-inch baby bass. How can I catch more bluegill on a fly rod? I go fishing at a pond behind my grandparents' house with fly rods. My father caught one the size of his two hands. I catch big ones too, but [00:23:00.160] not as big as my father's." And then there's a note from Harris's father, Trent. "Harris loves the podcast. Living in Spain, your podcast is one of the ways I've found to share our American heritage of conservation and stewardship. I cherish every time the podcast covers public lands and conservation. The picture is Harris with his favorite catch," and he included a really cute picture with Harris with two fish. "He swiped my Orvis [00:23:30.180] Clearwater 10-foot 5-weight that I have rigged for uronymphing. It turned out to be a great way for him to get started on a fly rod."
Well, that's great, and thank you, Trent and Harris. And, Harris, as far as catching bluegills, you know, I think you're using the best method, actually. In my experience, what I do is I fish a sort of a dry dropper arrangement for bluegills. I use [00:24:00.484] a small floating bluegill bug, and then I attach an unweighted nymph or a very lightly weighted nymph to the little popper. And the popper sometimes attracts the bluegill's attention, and then they go and eat the nymph. And, of course, the popper acts like a strike indicator. When the popper goes under, you set the hook. So, that's a method I use quite a bit, and it's a lot of fun. So, maybe you should try that [00:24:30.045] and see how it works.
Harry: Hi, Tom. This is Harry from Western Maine. I love the podcast, and Orvis products, and your commitment to the sport we love. I have a situation that keeps me from taking long trips to fish, but I do frequently get to fish a really special freestone river near our home. I'm able to fish for wild native landlocked salmon and brook trout and have become very familiar with this river over the years. My question is about the salmon I catch. Whether it be with tiny nymphs, emergers, [00:25:00.234] small bucktails, or classic featherwing streamers like a gray ghost, they're all in a similar size range of 18 to 20 inches. I'm sure there are some larger fish lurking where I fish, and I'm wondering if I should try something different to find out, time of day, articulated streamers, slower parts of the river. I'm really grateful for these amazing fish, and I just think it'd be fun to catch a monster. Thanks again.
Tom: So, Harry, I'm [00:25:30.174] not totally sure if those landlocked salmon are wild. I may be wrong, but I wasn't aware that there are any self-reproducing populations of landlocked salmon in Massachusetts. I know that they stock some of the reservoirs there, and they run into the streams in the fall, but I'm not sure if they spawn successfully. So, catching a lot of fish in the same size range, to me, indicates that they've been [00:26:00.275] stocked. And, you know, they're probably one year they stocked a lot more salmon, or the fish they stocked held over better. And so, that may be why you are catching fish that are all the same size. Now, if they are truly stocked or they are truly wild, then I think you're doing the right thing. Although, I would suggest sometimes, when I've fished for [00:26:30.384] landlocked salmon in Maine, I've found that I've had better luck fishing small nymphs with an indicator or a Euro method, as opposed to the standard landlocked streamers.
And I'm talking about pretty small, size 18 pheasant tail nymph. And you might wanna try some smaller nymphs to see if you can find a bigger fish. Landlocked salmon, when they get in a stream, act [00:27:00.119] much like trout, and they spend most of their time eating insects, just like a trout. So, you may try that and see if that works for you. All right. That is a Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Natalie about wader fit and wader care. But my guest today is Natalie Cullum. Natalie has been with Orvis for about six years, and [00:27:30.408] it was interesting... Natalie, tell people how you came about the job. What happened? How did you get noticed for this job? Oh, and I should say, Natalie...I forgot to put this in. Natalie is a product developer for waders, rainwear. What else is in your bailiwick, Natalie?
Natalie: Yeah, it's pretty much like all the gear [00:28:00.170] you wear in the fishing and hunting. So, exactly right, rainwear insulation, next to skin pants, all that kind of stuff.
Tom: And, of course, waders. Not wading shoes. Your coworker, Jesse Heller, does the shoe part of it. Right? Okay.
Natalie: Yep.
Tom: So, sorry I interrupted. So, tell us how this job came about.
Natalie: Well, I feel very lucky. It's kind of a unique story. [00:28:30.940] I was at Utah State in the Outdoor Product Design and Development program at the time. And my senior kind of project, they called it the Capstone Project, was to design and develop, and then prototype a line of whatever goods you wanted to do. And at the time, I was and still am very psyched on fly fishing. So, I decided I was gonna do a fly-fishing line. And my big, like, [00:29:00.134] prototyping project was gonna be prototyping and fishing in a pair of waders that I made. So, that all happened. I posted some of the photos of that process and the waders to Instagram. And I think my old boss, Jim Kershaw, at the time was interested in the program and somehow landed on those Instagram photos. And then from there, we kind of just had a slew of conversations that ended in me applying for this job and eventually getting it [00:29:30.025] and moving to Vermont.
Tom: And we're so glad that happened.
Natalie: Me too.
Tom: So, the topic today, what we wanna talk about is I get a lot of questions in the podcast about wader care, wader repair, you know, how to fit waders. And so, you're the expert. And so, I wanted to get you on to help guide people through this process because, you know, let's be [00:30:00.164] honest, a lot of waders are made in Asia, and they're gonna get more expensive. One way or another, they're gonna get more expensive. And the waders that you have now, you wanna take care of them because your next pair is...unless you buy them pretty damn quick are most likely gonna be more expensive. So, let's talk about wader fit [00:30:30.565] first. What's important in wader fit?
Natalie: Yeah. So, just kind of some background on, like, our wader sizing, in general. Of course, when you, like, walk up to the wall of waders, it's kind of daunting. There are a lot of different options there. Like, when we go to size our waders, we are kind of looking at a couple different factors. One would be, [00:31:00.134] like, industry standards for fit across the board. No matter if you're, like, looking at outdoor industry goods, or fashion goods, or whatever, we kind of all fall into this umbrella of Avalon is what it's called. And they put out these measurements of just standard body types that they've surveyed, like, all over the world. So, you can kind of look at, like, average body types in North America, Europe, Asia, and they have [00:31:30.109] so much research and data around that. So, that's kind of a good baseline. And I feel comfortable in saying that most people in the product industry that makes apparel and wearable items are probably looking at that as, like, a baseline starting place. And stop me if I'm ever getting too granular because I can go [crosstalk 00:31:53.022]...
Tom: No, we like to get granular here. Don't worry about it.
Natalie: ...into these topics. And then, of course, we have, [00:32:00.089] like, our own internal information of...I mean, we've been making waders for a very long time. So, we've learned a lot within that process of what works and what doesn't work, and we've kind of, like, fallen into a certain fit. We're also getting, like, feedback all the time of, like, "This is too tight here. This is too baggy on this here." So, we're always trying to, like, gather that feedback. And then kind of the third facet is just always staying aware and paying attention to the rest of the industry [00:32:30.380] and what they're doing in terms of sizing differences and innovations that they're kind of going towards. We always wanna keep our eyes open. Whether it's, like, directly related in fly fishing, looking at other wader brands, or if it's in, like, ski bibs and ski bib technology, and kind of just keeping our eyes and ears open to what people are doing in the industry. So, that's kind of, like, [00:33:00.119] where we start and how we filter all that information into what we would call, like, our wader fit, and our wader fit kind of lands into this grade.
So, wader grade is, like, from a small to a triple extra large kind of the steps that you take to go up in sizes there. So, our grade typically goes in 4-inch increments in chest, [00:33:30.230] waist, and sweep. So, let's say, you typically buy a medium and you have a regular inch inseam, which would be around, like, a 32. You probably start with a medium regular wader. Definitely, if you have any opportunity to try on a wader, that's great because you might have pinching places. The booties might not fit right, so you might have to size up and down based [00:34:00.319] on certain factors there. But then also when you're buying a pair of waders, just thinking about the environments that you're gonna wear them in. Most likely, I like to have my waders on a little bit of the bigger side so I can layer up underneath my waders, and it can be more versatile for cold weather and warm weather environments.
Tom: You know, let's say I don't care about how I look [00:34:30.315] on the water, which is true, what are the pragmatic reasons for getting my wader fit right?
Natalie: Yeah. That's a great question. I think first and foremost, if you don't care about how you look, you wanna be able to move in them. And that's, like, a really important factor of just being comfortable, being able to be agile if [00:35:00.014] you're stepping up and over rocks, or fences, or trees, whatever it is. So, you wanna definitely be able to move in your riders, and a lot of the times that has to do with inseam. So, if you get too short of an inseam, you're really not gonna be able to lift your legs or sit comfortably in a boat or in your car. So, that's pretty important. And then, again, I tend to size a little bit bigger, but some people [00:35:30.244] like form-fitting waders, and they might, you know, tend to size a little bit on the smaller size. What you do compromise when you are on the tighter side of your wader fit is just that layer ability. You're not gonna be able to put as much underneath your wader.
Tom: Yeah. You might have trouble stepping over a fence or something like that, too, right? And you can go too far in the opposite direction, which affects durability. [00:36:00.045] I have a short inseam. And if I don't get short waders, medium short, the material bags, especially at my knees, and that constant rubbing when I'm walking from that looser material can wear out the waders, can wear, you know, after couple years, can put wear spots in them, and then they leak there. So, you know, I think it's important for people to know [00:36:30.144] that it's not only for comfort, but for durability. And if your waders are too tight and you're constantly stressing those seams, although the seams are really strong, you know, you can blow out a seam if you're too tight.
Natalie: Absolutely. Yeah, that's a great point. Also, the safety aspect of just, like, if you're swimming in your waders and let's say you fall into the water, there's more volume for water to get into [00:37:00.355] those, just the extra material there. So, that's also a consideration. And then water drag, you don't want a ton of wader fabric kind of being pulled around in the water or the wind. So, all of that are good considerations.
Tom: And always wear a wader belt. And as we actually explored in podcast last year, I think it was with Ralph Cutter, sometimes wearing two wader belts, [00:37:30.090] one just under your armpits and one around your waist can keep water from getting in there, keep you from becoming a drogue shoot in the water.
Natalie: Yeah. Absolutely. That's very important.
Tom: So, we talked about fit. And, you know, of course, it goes out saying that if at all possible, you should go into a fly shop or an Orvis store and try on the waders. And, [00:38:00.164] you know, when you're in there trying a pair of waders on, what kind of steps should you go through to try on a pair of waders?
Natalie: Yeah. I think the shop representative or whomever is gonna probably ask a series of questions. I think we're all gonna kind of go in with our size in mind. Let's say I [00:38:30.349] wear medium shirts or medium pants, so I'm kinda going in there with the thought that I'm gonna be a medium. The interesting thing about the waders is we also kinda have to account for foot size, which no other products that I can think of is gonna be your shirt size and also your foot size encompassed to one thing. So, that's also pretty important to, like, know what your foot size [00:39:00.144] is because our waders and most other companies in the industry are gonna have different sizes of booties. So, once you're in the shop and you've kinda come to an agreement, I'm a medium regular with a, let's say, size 10-foot, you get in those waders. And I think it's just important to, like, do some simulations. Like, sit down, make sure it's comfortable [00:39:30.360] sitting down, raise your knees, make sure you have that range of motion there, and then also make sure you have enough room to throw on a couple layers if and when it's cold while you're wading.
Tom: Okay. And you should try them on with a pair of heavy socks if you wear heavy socks when you're wading, which most people do.
Natalie: Yes. That's also a good tip. Good call. And then from there, I mean, you'll go [00:40:00.050] up and down. At Orvis, we offer three different inseams. Actually, we kinda offer four. But our standards are regular inseam, short inseam, and long inseam. When you get into, like, extra large sizes, we do have an extra long. That would be a fourth inseam. So you can kinda play around with that, as well we offer from small to double extra large in terms [00:40:30.210] of sizing.
Tom: And women's waders as well, right? The cut in the women's waders is different from the men's waders, right? It's totally different form that you use.
Natalie: Yes. We spend a lot of time on all of our products fitting them. We've got fit models, live models. We also have forms that are men's and women's forms. So, it's hyper-specific to the gender that we're trying [00:41:00.050] to fit for.
Tom: All right. Let's say you have a new wader design, and you need to test them. Well, how do you go about testing waders?
Natalie: Yeah. Well, I call up Mr. Jesse Haller, who is our field test coordinator, and he is very connected in the industry. So, what's nice about, like, waders is we [00:41:30.380] will try to test kind of a broad size range to make sure that we're fitting people on the small side of things and on the larger side of things, and making sure that all of our fits make sense in terms of a new wader launch. So, let's say we get 12 waders, and we're gonna wanna test them in different environments, like harsh environments that are typically on the colder side, like in Alaska, depending on what time [00:42:00.260] of year we're testing. Our ultralights, we tried to focus on testing in kind of warmer weather so people could really try out, like, our waist high conversion and making sure that the fabric was light enough, breathe well enough so they didn't overheat, but also was durable enough to withstand the needs of someone fly fishing.
So, our waders go all over the world. It's not just in the United States. [00:42:30.349] We send them all over. So, Jesse's kind of our liaison. And then once they're in the field, we do 30, 60, 90, and 120-day check-ins. And there, we're asking specific questions like, "How are the waders in terms of durability? Are there any wear issues that you're finding?" Like you mentioned earlier, [00:43:00.179] "Is there any rubbing that you could see a potential issue to arise down the line. How are they fitting? What features do you like? What features do you not like?" A series of questions, and then we kind of get all that information and filter it down and see if we need to make any changes, whether the fabric's not holding up to our standards or the features aren't working the way we had hoped. We've definitely [00:43:30.619] had to sell some products in field testing, but are so glad that we have that step in our process because it makes sure that we are giving the customer the absolute best product that we could give them.
Tom: And how many iterations on average with a new wader style do you go through before you have final prototype?
Natalie: That's a great question. With waders, [00:44:00.610] we tend to have more than we usually would. Let's say if we were designing and developing a shirt, that would probably be around, like, two to three prototypes. Waders, I would say from the factory, we average around four to five prototypes. But I also in working with our technical designer who helps kind of guide us through the fit process, we actually [00:44:30.144] create our own patterns, and I will go in and sew those patterns. And we'll do kind of our own fit trials in tangent with the factories doing that. So, we can kind of, like, rapidly test out if we wanted to do something kind of outside of what we've done before. We can fast fail on those different ideas kind of in-house. That could be anywhere from, like, four to five of those plus the five to six from the factory.
Tom: [00:45:00.425] So, it's a lot of prototypes, a lot of back and forth. And it takes what? When we design a new pair of waders, it's like a two-year process. Isn't it pretty much? Because you need to see how they're gonna hold up.
Natalie: Yeah. The design and development is about two years, but we kick off fabric development probably three years in advance. It takes a long time to develop those specialized...like our PRO CORDURA fabrics, those are all unique to Orvis fabrics, [00:45:30.465] and they take years to perfect.
Tom: Yeah. I was fishing last week with one of our field testers, Charity Rutter, down in the Smokies, and she had a pair of the ultralight waders. And I said, "Those are the wrong color, and they don't have that back thing that slides up and down." But she was still wearing them, and they didn't leak. They weren't quite right, but she was happy [00:46:00.215] with them. So, interesting to see.
Natalie: Oh, that's great.
Tom: Yeah. All right. So, let's talk about wader care because you wanna take care of these waders. Let's start with, first of all, how should someone store their waders in between fishing trips? And then if they have an off-season, you know, for a few months, how should they store [00:46:30.215] their waders?
Natalie: Yeah. That's a great question. It kind of depends on which wader models you have. But then, like, our normal stocking foot waders, once they've dried out completely...and we always recommend, like, at least rinsing off your waders after you use them, whatever, sediment, salt, or anything that's on this.
Tom: Really?
Natalie: [00:47:00.727] Yeah.
Tom: Okay.
Natalie: That's gonna really help with the longevity if you just think, like, sediment working its way into that membrane. They're not really friends. So, it's as much as you can do to just get all that gunk off after you use them, before storing them. Maybe it's not every time if you're gonna fish all week, but maybe [00:47:30.125] before a long-term storage is probably a good idea to at least rinse those off. Once they're fully dry, I think we recommend folding and, like, putting into a dark place. If you have them, like, hanging in a sunroom, you'll probably notice after couple months that the sun is pretty damaging to all fabrics. So, try to keep it out [00:48:00.119] of the sun. And then the hanging portion of that, too, you can, like, put extra stress on the elastic suspension straps. So, it's just better to, like, fold them and put them on a shelf somewhere.
Tom: Okay. Loose folds, I assume, not really tight. Okay. And then this is a question I get frequently. Will heat or cold, when you're storing them, harm them? Let's say [00:48:30.079] somebody stores them in their garage, in the dark, and the garage gets below freezing. Will that hurt the waders?
Natalie: I think they should be okay, as long as they're dry. I think where that, like, becomes a problem is if they are wet and, like, the ice freezes on them. But they're pretty rugged products. And we definitely build them in mind of, like, people are gonna be throwing these [00:49:00.199] in their truck, and they need to be able to withstand super hot, and, again, super cold environment. So, try not to, but I don't think it's gonna do any long-term damage.
Tom: Okay. Oh, yes, store them away from a place where mice might get them.
Natalie: Oh my god.
Tom: I had one unfortunate experience. So, maybe you wanna put them in one [00:49:30.070] of those, big, plastic clothing totes or something to keep critters out of there, you know, if you're storing them out in the garage or something like that.
Natalie: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. There were a few years in a row where I wasn't storing mine properly, and I would go to put my foot in at the beginning of the season, and there were all sorts of nuts and things in the [crosstalk 00:49:53.151].
Tom: Dog food.
Natalie: Right. Not ideal.
Tom: Yeah. Okay. And then [00:50:00.949] washing waders. I don't know why anybody would ever wanna wash their waders, but people wanna wash their wagers. And how should they go about that?
Natalie: So, there are specific washes that we recommend with all waterproof breathable fabrics, so your rain jacket or your waders. And there are a few [00:50:30.190] brands. I think we sell either the Nikwax or the Revivex. Anyhow, there's specific waterproof breathable washes. And on there, it'll kind of detail how you should wash it. But, typically, it's like gentle cycle on cold. You can wash them. Then after that, hang dry. What's nice about, like, [00:51:00.179] these waterproof bristle wash brands is they typically have a spray to go along with it, and it's a DWR spray, a durable water repellent spray. So, after you wash it, if you follow up with that spray, that's gonna kind of revive the DWR treatment that we put on the top of the waders. These days, we are using C6...or C0, excuse me, C0 DWR [00:51:30.559] treatment. So, most of those washes and spray should be C0 as well. And that's just gonna help repel water off your waders. And the less water that the face fabric absorbs, the quicker drying it will be. So, that's just kind of a nice to have for the, like, start of the season or if you do that at the end of the season before storing. You probably don't wanna wash them a ton, maybe one to two times [00:52:00.099] a year at the most.
Tom: Oh, I wanna ask you, C0, does that mean there's no PFAS in the...?
Natalie: Correct. Yep. C0 is PFAS-free. Yes.
Tom: PFAS-free. Okay. Which is one of those forever chemicals that we're phasing out across the outdoor industry. And then I was gonna ask you something else. Oh, yeah, [00:52:30.079] I remember you and I had a discussion that came up in a podcast question. There's two types of those waterproof, breathable washing products. One is, like, a powder and one is a liquid, right? There's a different way of using each one, as I remember.
Natalie: Yeah. Typically, the liquid is gonna be... [00:53:01.295] There might be other ones, but what I know of is, like, a detergent style. So, that's gonna go in the wash. And then there's the, like, spray. So, the detergent could either be a liquid or a powder in wash, and then the spray is gonna be a liquid, and that's post-wash.
Tom: Is it post-wash and post-dry, or do you do it when they're still wet?
Natalie: It might vary, [00:53:30.235] but I think it's when they're still wet.
Tom: Okay. So, probably read the instructions on the water, on the Revivex, or whatever you're using on the waders. All right. Well, what else do you see in waders that people do that doesn't let them hold up as well as they should?
Natalie: [00:54:00.864] I mean, the other one that I didn't touch on was boot foot waders. Never want to hang your boot foot waders where the boots are off the ground because that's gonna have extra...those boots are pretty heavy, and that will kind of slowly pull apart the junction where the boots connect to the waders. You always wanna make sure they're on the ground. I think some other things... [00:54:30.456] Let's see. Saltwater is always just hard on everything, in general. We try to make sure there aren't any metals in our waders or corrosive metals. But it's always smart. Like, even I've seen saltwater kind of eat at the glue anywhere there's, like, a zipper that's been bonded to the face fabric. And saltwater can, like, eat away at those [00:55:00.516] glue bonds and glue joints. So, I think it's extra important if you are wearing waterproof breathables in saltwater to make sure you rinse off the saltwater. It's just super hard. And then, of course, in the likelihood that you puncture your waders, there are different methods into fixing those. I don't know if you've talked about on the podcast. We have a wader repair [00:55:30.581] kind of program. If someone has, like, a really bad damage to their waders, we do offer kind of a partnership with this company called Rainy Pass, where you can send in your waders for repair. They'll fix them. They call it, like, a factory finish. So, it's a really nice quality finish, and we send them back to you.
Tom: Yeah. If people wanna learn more about wader repair, I did a video. It's [00:56:00.045] on the Orvis Learning Center and probably on YouTube, on wader repair and how to find leaks, how to patch them yourself. And then I did send a pair as a test out to that wader repair facility, and they did a beautiful job. They did a really beautiful job. Do you remember how much that cost? I don't know how much that...
Natalie: Yes. So, it kind of starts around $60. If it's a really big issue or multiple damages, sometimes that cost can go up, but about average around $60.
Tom: Yeah. I mean, you'll have a pair of waders that's as good as new, and that's a hell of a lot better than having to buy a new pair of waders.
Natalie: Yep.
Tom: Well, let's see. What...?
Natalie: I have a question for you, [00:57:00.030] Tom...
Tom: Yes, Natalie.
Natalie: ...if I'm allowed to ask.
Tom: You are allowed to ask all the questions you want.
Natalie: So, I recently did a just a deep dive into our old catalogs as they all kind of were digitized. I was just kind of going through over the years and seeing how our designs have changed, what kind of fabric technologies we used to use, and things like that. And I stumbled upon a lot of photos of you [00:57:30.150] modeling some of our waders over the years, and I just wanted to know kind of what you've noticed in terms of, like, how waders have evolved. Has our fit improved? What kind of things have you kinda picked up on over the years?
Tom: Well, first of all, nobody should ever use me as a model for anything, but the price was right for Orvis. And I was handy, and I knew [00:58:00.184] how to wear a pair of waders. Well, honestly, Natalie, since you have come on board, and this is not just me, but I hear it from guides a lot, is that the waders last a lot longer, you know? I mean, honestly, prior to you coming on, I would get...you know, I walk a lot and I fish a lot. [00:58:30.335] I would get a season out of a pair of waders before they'd start to leak. I love repairing waders, and I could repair them with Aquaseal, and that was fine. But I'd get a year, maybe, before I'd get little pinhole leaks, unless I ran into barbed wire or something. But, you know, the normal wear stuff. Sometimes leaks around the seams. And honestly, both in my opinion and opinion of the guys I talked to, the waders [00:59:00.681] just last and last and last. I can't remember the last time I had to repair a pair of waders other than ones I punched holes in to do that wader repair video that I did. They're more durable.
Comfort-wise, yeah, they're more comfortable. You know, they're not as heavy. I mean, I started back in the days of things like [00:59:30.195] these horrible waders called Seal Dries, which were pure latex. So, they were absolutely not breathable, and you look like a sausage. And on a hot day, you would cook like a sausage. And then there were the Red Ball, the first really ultralight waders, which were so flimsy and so uncomfortable. They were awful. So, yeah, [01:00:00.144] I guess, yeah, the suspenders are better. The pocket design is more useful. I've never had that much trouble with...yeah, I did have trouble with fit before because before we sold medium shorts, and they were just mediums, they would bag too much in the legs, and then I'd wear it out. But the fit's better. The fabric is [01:00:30.085] so much more durable. I mean, now even with the ultralights, I don't think twice about walking past a rose bush or, you know, brushing up against a blackberry or something. You know, they're really tough. The fabric that you're using now, it's flexible, it's durable, and it's tough. So, they're so much better than they used to be, so [01:01:00.150] much better. Any other questions?
Natalie: I think I've heard from the rumor mill, which is not really a rumor mill, but Jesse might have mentioned that the new Ultralight might be your favorite waders right now or wading system. Is that true?
Tom: Yeah. The boots and the waders themselves, even in cold weather, I just layer them with, you know, a pair of our PRO [01:01:30.429] insulated wading pants. And, yeah, I love them. I absolutely love them. The sole on those new boots is so good and so grippy without having to go to Felt because Felt, Felt is...I don't worry as much about the invasive species because I clean them off in between trips, but it's just walking...you know, I do a lot of walking, and walking [01:02:00.179] on trails, and walking up and down banks. The rubber sole is so much safer and better. I think they grip almost as well as felt. I've never been able to say that about a rubber sole in the past. So, yeah.
Natalie: Right. Yeah. Jesse did a phenomenal job on those boots. They're so great.
Tom: Yep. We can't talk about what's coming up in the future, but I know [01:02:30.039] you got some exciting things you're working on. And we won't be able to talk about them here, but it's a continuous improvement, right? And you got some cool stuff coming up?
Natalie: Yes, yep. A lot of goodness coming down the pipeline.
Tom: Good. Good. I can't wait. I can't wait. And I hope Jesse puts me on the field tester list.
Natalie: You're always on the list, Tom. Anything [01:03:00.340] you want.
Tom: All right, Natalie. Well, I wanna thank you for taking the time and really sharing our knowledge. I know I learned a bunch about wader care and repair and maybe I'll even start washing my waders a couple times a year, or at least rinse...
Natalie: [crosstalk 01:03:20.279] Thank you for having me on.
Tom: Or at least rinsing them off. You've convinced me.
Natalie: At least that.
Tom: Yeah. All right, Natalie. Thanks so [01:03:30.179] much.
Natalie: Thank you, Tom.
Tom: Okay. Talk to you soon.
Natalie: Bye.
Tom: Bye.
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at