Hot Tips on Using Split Shot, with Dom Swentosky

Tom Rosenbauer (00:00.718) Well, my guest today is Dom Swentosky and Dom has been on the podcast before talking about we talked about tight line fishing, which was a super popular podcast, by the way. And I got a lot of nice, nice comments about it and people.

Tom Rosenbauer (02:24.173) remark that they learn quite a bit and so we're going to talk about we're going to talk about something that that I don't particularly like to use and I feel that I'm probably missing something because I'm always learning stuff from you from your blog by the way Dom is a is a guide and a blogger and a podcaster and a musician and a dad and

all kinds of other cool things. He's a great guy. And if you're not familiar with his blog, Trout Bitten, and his podcast, you need to do yourself a favor, because he's got some stuff on there that you're not gonna see anyplace else, I think. And I always learn a lot by listening to your...

Let me start that again. I always learn I always learn a lot by reading Dom's blog hang on a second. I'm gonna turn up a Heater off heat pump because it's making noise.

Tom Rosenbauer (03:47.916) Barking dogs. Dogs always bark when I start a podcast. Barking dogs. Mine lays back here. yeah, he's belly up. He's gonna come up to me and bump me and be wanting a treat about halfway through. That's his routine. Dogs love routine. So anyway, what we're gonna talk about today is the use of split shot.

I go on record as telling people, avoid it whenever you can. Use heavy nymphs and a light tip it and avoid the use of a split shot. And Don, you are a split shot guy. so I wanted to talk to you about why you think it's beneficial, how you use it, how you present the fly with split shot and all that other good stuff. Well, thanks for having me, Tom.

It's nice to be back. Good to see you.

Always good conversation. I'm not a split shot guy necessarily, right? But you're an anti-split shot guy. Yeah, I am. I don't like tying an extra knot in my leader. I don't like the fact that it slips on me. You know what's fun? Being in the industry long enough and guiding long enough. I hear the same things that you're saying. People don't like that it slips. People don't have, let's say, a good system for

applying it, putting it on, a good way to take it off. And that's a pain in the butt, right? Maybe they don't have a good system for storing it. like you said too, maybe the biggest thing is that it slides. And then people will talk about casting problems. But- Well, casting with a couple of big heavy nymphs is no easier. So that's not my issue with it. Good point. It will, well.

Tom Rosenbauer (05:44.275) It doesn't necessarily tangle more but if you do have three things on the line instead of two things on the line or two versus one Anytime you add something else to the line, know, yeah, you're probably gonna tangle more. Yeah, surprises me So Tom you've been fishing way longer than like let's say tungsten beads were popularized, right? And so what are you doing to get down before that? Yeah

I mean, I said I wasn't a split shot guy, but I'm just an everything guy. I kind of do everything, you know? Well, I think I am too, but I think I'm missing it. I'm missing the boat on this don't know. Now, I have to confess. I just got back from steelhead fishing on the Salmon River, and after I got tired of swinging a pool all morning and not catching any fish, I turned around and put on an indicator and...

An egg fly and I did have to use split shots first time I've used it all year and I caught a couple of nice deal Well, there you go, and I was thinking of you when I caught those I don't know I Yeah, I kind of do it all I will say whether it's tight line or indicator that does that has nothing to do with whether I use split shot or not Yeah, you know, I've always said like whatever happens. I don't know below the water though that whole rigging

again, it's all variable and I kind of do whatever I think anyway is gonna suit the moment. Like you're out there, I'm out there trying to make good guesses, decisions, have a theory, test a theory, less than half the time it works. But I try to meet the moment, right? And sometimes, I suppose we'll talk about it, sometimes I do think split shot is a better choice than weighted flies. But I would rather use weighted flies. I'm like you, I really would.

probably 60 % of the time I choose weighted flies. Let's say for the simplicity, honestly I like the look of a flashy bead. Well, then again I think the trout do a lot of times, which is why I choose it. It is perhaps more simple. I also combine split shot with weighted flies. I need a little bit more weight. Well, I don't want to necessarily go bigger bead on that fly. Just throw a little bit of split shot on. To me it's an easy,

Tom Rosenbauer (08:07.058) and efficient way to do things. I've said before, it's like a timeless tool that really surprises me that the longer we go on and as things become modernized, I suppose, in the fishing industry, the people go, forget about split shot, forget about that. Like me. Well, but it's what you like too. And I'm not here to tell anybody that they should be doing one thing or the other. And I know I'm a pretty opinionated person, but I'm also open-minded.

And I'm also just, I don't know, just like to, like I said, I like to do everything. And I like for people to understand, I like for anglers to understand what their options are. You know what mean? Yeah. So, so first of all, do you believe that using an unweighted nymph with split shot gives the nymphs better action, better movement in the water? Yeah.

That's a quick answer from me. think yes. Okay. And I'll tell you why. To me it seems kind of obvious that if the unweighted nymph, let's say, can be more of the actual, more close to, let's say, the actual weight of a sulfur nymph. Let's just compare a sulfur nymph with a pheasant tail. Okay. I think my unweighted pheasant tail with, you know, the little bit of weight of the hook itself, right?

Let's say it is almost neutrally buoyant. You know, you put it under there. There is a very slow sink rate. And I would assume I've never weighed, you know, all right. I got to assume because I've never weighed a sulfur nymph itself, the real thing. But I think the sulfur nymph, you know, is a lot closer, let's say to that unweighted pheasant tail than a beadhead pheasant tail. If we're talking about a number 14, I might put a three millimeter bead on it. Okay. But regardless of the bead size, anytime we add weight to the nymph, then

That nymph always wants to fall. It's what weight does. And I mean, kind of unfortunately, as soon as we go under the water with any fly, we need weight. Weight has to be somewhere in the system. And for me, like I said, I like to do it both ways. But yes, I believe that the unweighted nymph is going to sometimes look more natural, have a chance at least, have a chance to look more natural, more like the actual real sulfur nymph, right?

Tom Rosenbauer (10:33.979) I know I got to get that nip down though. So if I put split shot on what I usually do is I'll put split shot five to six inches Above you know Up on the leader above the above the nip I'm not talking about Usually I'm not talking about riding at 10 or 12 or 20 inches away because then I'm gonna go then I'm gonna lose strike detection. Mm-hmm Okay, let me talk about that too, but

I think that I then give it let's say five to six inches of grace. I often call it that. Slack, you call it slack. I give the nymph some grace to kind of move around. Now I acknowledge that plenty of times it's going to be in perfect contact, you know, no slack, well no grace between the unweighted nymph and that split shot. So I'll have those two things down there. It's being towed around by the split shot. I get it. I think plenty of other times though that the currents get a chance to kind of move that split shot or rather move that.

nymph around that split shot, let's say in like a five inch radius, if I have that split shot, you know, five inches above the nymph, the nymph has that five inches of freedom, grace, whatever we want to call it, to be tossed around a bit by the currents, more like the natural. Is it always, you know, is it always happening like that? Of course not, because the complex currents down there are tossing things around and, you know, like I said, I'm sure lots of times that

nymph is being towed around by the split shot. Maybe even for all of my drift. But I'm also sure that lots of times that it does get a chance to look more natural. Okay. Now, do you believe in using a loop knot to your nymph? That's a good question too. I don't know if I believe. Yes, I believe that it would give it more of a chance to look natural. I don't use it. Do you use a loop knot? Yeah, no, I don't. I think that most of my nymphs,

get that chance to kind of, well, I'll use five X, let's four and a half, five. Sometimes I go down to six X, six X is about as thin as I go. Basically, my answer is that I will use a tip it that allow, I think allows the fly enough flexibility when it's attached to the tip. It can move around without the use of that loop. Not, I find the loop not to just be a little bit more, I don't want to say cumbersome.

Tom Rosenbauer (12:54.697) can't think of a word. It's more bother to me. And it's a little clunkier look down there. It's another thing. You got two pieces of stuff coming out of the eye of the hook as opposed to one. There you go. I watch a lot of nymphs drifting in the current and often they're quite stiff. They do wiggle. They do wiggle when they're emerging but also then they pause.

And you know, for the split second that it goes by a trout's nose, well, maybe that's a nymph that's not wiggling. I know, right? That's kind of stiff and holding its place in the current. yeah. Yeah. I wrote an article not too long ago about whether trout are taking a drift or a position. mean, a trout just sitting behind a rock and anything that maybe its focus is like six inches square, you know, above the rock. Yeah. You know.

And it's just focused on one very like six square inches of a spot and anything that comes through that spot that looks like food, bang, it's going to eat. Other times, and I feel like that's true sometimes, maybe in faster water, especially other times, especially we have low, clear water around here and I feel like those trout are looking at that nymph 10 feet away and they're looking at a drift. They're looking at the nymph drifting at them, coming to them. And that's when I feel like I need the most perfect drift, drifts perhaps, you know, you need that kind of flutter.

And sometimes I think that unweighted flies are gonna give me that chance, know, paired up with the split shot. Okay, fair enough. So let's get into the use of split shot. you're putting, generally you're putting the split shot five to six inches above the fly. Yeah, that's true. And you have to have another knot there, right? No, and so you're talking about slipping. You're saying because it would slide? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so this is the most common objection, I think, to...

The other one is loss of strike detection, so let's not miss that. But let's address sliding first. These are just my, it's my experience, but it's my opinion, right? For me, split shot doesn't slide if I don't mash it down, right? When I'm applying the split shot, so often I see people just mash it, take their hemostats and really mash it down. deform the split shot. If you do that, it slides more. It seems kind of, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (15:18.439) I guess it seems counterintuitive. You'd think that I'm gonna really push it down there and that'll make it stick to the tip. The opposite is true. There's no doubt about this. That if you just easily crimp it, I do it with my teeth. Well, and I've had so many people say, you're gonna ruin your teeth. People even see in the videos. But honestly, I won't. I've been using, and right there, these same two teeth my whole life for the split shot.

What I'm saying is that I'm putting so little pressure on it that it's not damaging my teeth. Honestly, I could use my thumb and my forefinger and squeeze it just about enough. That's all the pressure that I need to the split shot. Now, that's predicated on the idea that I'm using the right split shot. And I say the right split shot. And for me, it's a split shot that is, they call it soft. They call it soft shot. Some of it's, some split, well.

There's a lot of different split shot out there. So there's plenty that'll work. I've used Dinsmore for a long time and the Dinsmore in the red tub is a soft shot. They have the green tub, it's kind of soft but it's got that green finish on it. It's okay but it's a lot stiffer and so it's harder to put on, harder to take off. Fair enough but it works. Orvis, you guys make the black shot. I use that. One thing that I don't like, sorry.

But one thing that I don't love about the black shot is that after it ticks the bottom If I fish it for an hour, know it that finish starts to chip off and then I some shine under there Not a big fan of that. But I will say and that's non-toxic you're that the stuff I'm talking about. It's non-toxic I will say most of the non-toxic stuff Rarely slips if I pinch it down the way I'm talking about hmm some of the pure lead stuff slips actually most of the pure lead stuff slips

This Dinsmore stuff I'm talking about, and really what I'm using right now, my buddy Josh Darling got me on it, is Anchor. Anchor brand shot, comes out of the UK, so there's plenty of American distributors, but it's great. You put it on, you take it off, talk about that in a second, but it sticks to the line. Now I'm not saying it's gonna stick there indefinitely without a knot, a stopper knot, but you have to kind of significantly be hung up and be really pulling on it to get your snag out.

Tom Rosenbauer (17:46.703) Perhaps for it to really move. Okay, if it does move. Yeah, I'll tie a knot like you said usually instead of an overhand knot I'll tie a figure eight knot I think that's this little thing in my head. I think is a little stronger Maybe it's not a figure eight knot in your tippet. Yeah instead of an overhand You know what I mean? Well over hands definitely gonna weaken it agreed and I'm sure that my figure eight knot also weakens it But I think it does less the other option and this will not weaken your

is to tie a uni knot, imagine this, you take a uni knot, tie it around the standing line, and snug it up. Don't go real, real, real tight, because you might wanna slide that uni knot up and down. And I'm here talking about, take a piece of 3X or 4X and tie it around your, perhaps we're using 5X, right? And make a uni knot, a standalone uni knot there around your main line. And again, you could slide it up and down if you don't really wrench it down when you tighten it. And it'll serve as a stopper knot.

that doesn't weaken your line and is slidable. There's a solution for everything bud. So you're not using a double uni, how do you keep it from just coming off the rest of tip it? Do you tie an overhand knot in the other piece of tip it? No, if you just take the uni knot and wrap it around that standing line. It's the same thing I do with what I call a backing barrel. Some guys call it a grin or knot. It's five wraps. It's really, if you lay two lines parallel, if you have your main line, and then you take your.

Extra line here, it's gonna be, you know, five inches, let's say. And you wrap it around, it's an overhand loop, and you go around the main line and through the loop. One, two, three, four, five is enough. Pull it tight. And then you have a uni knot basically around your main line. Hard to describe. so you just double over, double your, the standing part of your leader over and then tie a uni knot around that. No, I got a totally independent piece of, I don't mean to.

be a bad I don't mean to be bad at describing it but no I have a totally independent piece of tippet I clip off five or six inches of tippet and yeah I tie that around the main line right okay so it's like a stop or not but it's not it's not

Tom Rosenbauer (20:01.38) tied into the main part of the line at all. just around it, cinching it around it like a stopper. Okay, gotcha. There, right? mean, it'd be better with a diagram, right? Yeah, now I get it. it. Everybody, know, people, people can get it. Yeah, now I get it. It's a way to it. speed nail knot or anything else like. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay. It's a cool way to do it. It's a little longer than just tying an overhand or a figure eight knot to protect as a stopper. But again, it's be stronger though.

I agree, yes, and that's why I'll sometimes do it. But anyway, if you use, I'm saying the right split shot, let's say the best split shot, then it rarely slides anyway. And you don't use lead shot, do you? No, no, no, no. And for me, the main reason is because it slides. I'm here in Pennsylvania. We can use lead shot if we want, but I don't because it so often slides, so easily slides, but the non-toxic stuff doesn't.

slide much. Yeah, and it's not good for the environment either. So it's a good idea not to use it. It's not good to put in your mouth either. Did you know that? No, it's not. in your mouth. Yeah, if you're crimping it with your teeth, you don't want to using lead. And I have a very bad habit of putting split shot, you know, in my mouth, like holding it there, because I know I'm going put it back on. Until I get ready to put it on. A lead shot putting in your mouth doesn't make you any smarter. No. It might make us dumber through the years. It adds up.

Don't chew on it either. So five to six inches around the standing part of the leader. Do you ever put your split shot on like a separate dropper? You know, use a swivel and then leave the tag end of the clinch not long and put an overhand knot in it and then put a couple split shot on there. Do you ever do it that way? Yeah, that's a cool question. I've fished so much like you. I I just, I've tried everything. I mean, I've...

water almost every day for 20 some years now. I mean I'll try everything. At this point, I guess a long time ago, I decided I'm almost anti-hardware for a tippet section. With dry flies, nymphs, streamers, I don't say I'm just talking for me. I don't like to add swivels.

Tom Rosenbauer (22:19.596) I get that question quite a bit. You get questions, I'm sure, coming in your email. Everybody's got to ask you about tippet rings, right? Because everybody asks me about tippet rings. Well, I like tippet rings. I'm fine with tippet rings. I have one tippet ring at the end of my cider. If I'm using a tight line rig, 1.5 millimeter, which is as small as you can get, tippet ring at the end of my cider. I like that because it saves me material, saves time. But beyond that is where my tippet section starts.

Even if I'm using the nine foot leader and a fly line and a mending line and I'm doing it, let's say a traditional nymphing way, you know, without tight lining, I still almost always have a tippet ring right before my tippet section starts. Anyway, that's, that's hardware. And then when I say I'm anti hardware, you know, I guess I'm lying. But you get it. is a hook, right? Yeah. Good point. Hooks hardware. Yeah. Nice. So I don't use a swivel much. I have, I don't like it, but I will run. I've done what you're talking about.

you know, a split shot off of a tag. I've done that up the line. Things like that put me too far out of touch and then I lose more strike detection. And I should also say I do a lot of drop shot, which is not what I I was gonna ask you that. That was my next question. I could summarize it. mean, we could do a whole drop shot podcast someday, but that's almost its own thing to me. And well, you're taking split shot and putting it then at the end of the.

And I would argue you get a very different drift, because you're always in touch with those flies, than the one I'm talking about, which is five inches up above the point fly, let's say. Then that point fly, anyway, gets that five inches of grace. Very different drift, in my opinion, for how things are reacting in the water, how the nymph is reacting in the water. But I drop shot a lot, and when I drop shot, I put it on that tag. So it's six inches, let's say, below the main line.

or the parent fly. So I'm gonna ask you to describe in a little more detail how you drop shot, but people should know that it's not legal in some place. In California it's illegal. know the Salmon River in New York drop shotting is illegal. Your fly must be, when it's hung with gravity, it must be, your fly must be below your weight. But anyways, talk.

Tom Rosenbauer (24:42.498) Let's talk through exactly how you would rig a drop shot rig with split shot. Sure. I can do that. I'll say that's, that's a good thing to point out. It's not ill or it's not legal everywhere. Yeah. Like sadly the places where it's not legal, it's usually because people have used drop shot to snag fish. Yeah. You know, I've written what five, six, seven, uh, parts of a drop shot article series. Um, and you know, you get comments and people will say, Oh, you just snagging fish. No.

just using the weight at the end of the line. Dropshot for me, I'll start by saying, is not, it's not heavier than anything else. Just because I have the weight at the end of the line doesn't mean I'm going to choose for it to necessarily be a heavier weight than I would have put five inches up. Anyway, I guess from the tippet ring down, let's just go, right? The tippet section. And it could be underneath an indicator or tight line. And I would very much use the same, let's say, dropshot tippet.

I know, I'm gonna round off numbers and lengths here, but let's just say I'd go quite often around here, three feet to my first fly. Let's say I go four X, three feet of four X to my first fly. For that first fly, I like to mount on a tag. I'd like to make a four inch tag off the main line, you understand. Put the nymph on a tag and it's got that four inches of freedom then to kind of be around that main line. That's cool.

I'll go about, I'm gonna say 16 inches down. A little less than I would if I was going other ways. There's so many ways to rig, Tom. I'm trying to be concise. So 16 inches down would be my second fly. Now I used to go in line. I learned a drop shot rig from a Gallup article, a Kelly Gallup article so many years ago. And it was a

resource for me and I would drop shot once in a while. So I used to go in line right there, meaning from that fly I would then tie back out of the eye another piece of line and then go down to my drop shot. But there's a local guy here, Dave Rothrock. Yeah, I know Dave. That's great. Now like you said yesterday, like everybody knows each other. Everybody knows everybody. So you know Dave. And I remember, you know, talking with Dave about his drop shot setup and what he does is he puts that lower fly also on a tag.

Tom Rosenbauer (27:06.44) Also like a four inch tag. And then below that lower fly, I'm gonna round it off again and say I'll go six inches down and another piece of tip it, you know, to my split shot. Now it doesn't even matter, but I use little balls of lead with a hook eye out of them instead of split shot. Now that's hard, that is kind of like hardware. What I do, it doesn't matter. I'm probably the only one who does that. I mean, I have a couple.

Friends who do it now because I think it's a little better. But anyway, let's just say that you take split shot regular split shot You know put it at the end of that line six inches down below the the lower fly You put an overhand knot in that piece of tip it just sure Okay, and I know a lot of people will say well Hey, you could you could not put a knot there and then when you hang up this split shot will slide off I don't know in my waters if I hang up. It's so rare anyway on a drop shot But if I do hang up then I'll just go get the snag out

instead of trying to allow the split shot to slip off. If you hang up, if you hang up, I find that if you hang up hard enough, the split shot will slip, will slip off the overhand knot anyway. Yeah, I hear you. That could happen. Yeah. Um, the, well, one of the, and so that's the rig, but one of the reasons I use drop shot, perhaps the main reason I use drop shot, there are times when I actually want to bottom bounce and

I like to give credit where I learned things and again Joe Humphries I mentioned him so much in many of the trout-pitting resources. I learned from Humphries. Humphries was always saying get down, touch that bottom, tick that bottom, use it as a reference. Know where you are, you got to get down, you got to touch the bottom. And I was very bought into the bottom bouncing concept. I don't do that as much anymore. I'd rather be slightly above the bottom in what we call a strike zone, kind of a whole different topic. But when I really want to get back to bottom bouncing,

which is plenty of times, maybe 20 or 30 % of the time when I'm out there nymphing, I choose for whatever reason, like we said, we're trying to solve mysteries, to get down on the bottom, tick to tick, tick, tick. If I use a drop shot, there is nothing cleaner than drop shot. That rig I just described and that you've used and so many people out there listening have used, you could tick that bottom 200 times in 15 minutes and never,

Tom Rosenbauer (29:30.247) hang up. And if you do, you get the right angle. It usually just rolls right out anyway. So it's great. I've often said to clients, it makes you stop being afraid of touching the bottom. And you start to go, okay, good, okay, here I am, tick to tick tick. In any other way, whether it's weighted flies or even this first split shot, the regular split shot, five inches up that we were talking about. Any other way, if you try to bottom bounce, you're gonna hang up.

gosh, 10 times is often. You know what I mean. But anyway, drop shot's kind of its own thing. Okay. Do you ever go longer, do you ever put a longer distance between the split shot and your flies? Do you ever put the split shot, you know, eight inches, 10 inches, 18 inches above your fly? And when would you do that? So to be clear, are we back to like a regular split shot?

placement not drop shot. Yeah, yeah regular split shot. Yes, every so often. Back to Humphreys, I remember Humphreys always saying the deeper you slide the split shot to the fly or the closer you slide the split shot to the fly the deeper the ride. That was in Trout Tactics, I'll never forget that. imagine that that's your weight. Again we're talking about drop or I'm sorry we're talking about split shot with an unweighted fly.

So all the weights there in that split shot that's, I like to put it five inches up. Well if I slide it 10 inches up, then, or if I position it 10 inches up, then that unweighted nymph is gonna ride higher in the column. It's the, obviously it's the shot that is getting down there much faster than that unweighted, like we said, almost neutrally buoyant unweighted fly. So it's gonna be pulled down by the weight. But it won't be pulled down as far. It'll ride higher in the water column.

We used to think it will, I logically it will. It'll be higher in the water column if I have it 10 inches above my point fly rather than five inches. And heck, if I could go to like two or three inches and still have trout eat it, I might do that. It would ride even lower then. And I say I might do that and I've tried it, gosh I've tried it. But if I go like two inches above my nymph, I just don't get hits.

Tom Rosenbauer (31:55.134) There's something weird about it. It's like maybe, whatever, it's too close, it doesn't allow enough freedom, looks too unnatural. There's two things right next to each other and the trout don't like it. Five inches really seems to be that sweet spot. I said earlier, five, For me, right? In my experience, whatever. Well, people like to hear that kind of stuff. They like to hear exactly five inches. Everybody's gonna get their rulers out now and measure five inches.

I got marks on my hand like here's seven inches, here's nine inches. I got measurements and I'm pretty much a stickler for that kind of thing too. Anyway, it's real common, probably 90%, way more than even 90 % of the time. I'm going five inches up. The main reason, Tom, is because the further I go, if I do slide it up 10 inches, well then that kind of sounds nice. Hey, you give that nymph 10 inches of grace instead of five inches of grace.

I'm also then 10 inches out of strike detection. And that is the most legitimate objection to the split shot right there. The first objection we kind of talked about like it's sliding and storage and putting it on, taking it off. That's all solved by really getting the right shot. thinking it through, having a system, knowing how you store it. You come up with your own ideas. if you just commit to like, you

I'm going to figure out how to do this. You can solve those first issues. And we talked about sliding. Fair enough. This out of, out of strike detection or loss of strike detection, objection is really a fair point. More than fair. It's true. With that grace, that slack that I'm talking about, that ability for that unweighted nymph to kind of have that five inch radius above the shot also comes with a loss of them of strike detection. It's true. They have to eat the nymph and

move the shot for me to know it. Yeah. You get it. mean, right. And so that's a thing. And I would say that once again, I've kind of come to that five inch, six inch number preference because boy, I don't feel like I'm losing much. And you know, with lots of fishing and testing, I feel like that's enough slack, grace, whatever, but also enough strike detection. And it's, if I back it up to 10 inches, 12 inches up,

Tom Rosenbauer (34:17.809) I start to lose more fish. But in fairness, would say that when I, know, a split shot versus, you know, weighted flies, or split shot and unweighted flies versus unweighted fly, I'm sorry, let me try to say that again. In fairness, I'm saying that if I'm just using weighted flies, I'm probably gonna hook a few more fish. My strike detection is gonna be better. And so that unweighted fly with the split shot, you know, it's a concession.

Right, but I also believe that I get more takes sometimes with some flies on some days. It's the solution that helps me get more strikes in the first place. Now is this is this the same? Whether you're you mean you do a lot of tight line fishing? Sure. You're sort of you're a living, but you have a little bit a little bit different way doing it. People can people can definitely look on your blog to see that. But

Would this be the same when you're fishing an indicator? Yeah, almost. Yeah, probably the same. I say almost, but really it would be the same. I don't really care for them. Well, lots of times when I have, when I'm using a tight line rig, then I'll add an indicator somewhere up on the upper part of that tippet section, usually below the cider and maybe a foot down. It depends on how deep I want it to be. I'll put it right at the top of my tippet section and I don't change anything about the...

the split shot placement, if I'm using split shot, I might not be using split shot, plenty of times I'm not. Like I said, probably 60 % of the time, I'd rather, I'm using weighted flies, because I'd rather use them. well, you brought up the Euro-Nymphing term. I Euro-Nymph plenty. If I'm tight-line-nymphing with only flies attached to the leader, maybe weighted flies, that's Euro-Nymphing. To me, that's the definition. I suppose other people have different definitions, but Euro-Nymphing is tight-line-nymphing with

Only the flies attached to the leader right as soon as I had no shot no indicator, right? And as soon as I had an indicator I'm not you're on anything as soon as I had split shot I'm not you're an infant as soon as I would if I would add a drop shot. No, it's not you're an infant, right? So I don't even call it a euro rig because it's not it's a tight line rig that I will sometimes you're on inf with you know, I'm saying yeah, that's why I look at it. Okay now How let's talk about weight, okay?

Tom Rosenbauer (36:42.875) you know, what do you start with? Let's say you're fishing, you're fishing a run that you don't know and you're not really sure how deep it is, maybe the water's a little dirty, and you know, how do you decide how much weight to add? And when do you know to either add or remove weight? Yeah, that's great question. It runs so deep, right? It depends first on what my objectives are.

Just because I'm fishing a nymph doesn't mean I necessarily want to get it all the way to the bottom right away. Colder the water, later in the season, egg pattern for example. trout aren't eating eggs in the mid column usually. mean if I'm using an egg for example, an egg is right, the real eggs are right down on the bottom. There are certain flies, and like I'm saying certain times of the year where I just want to get very low very quick. But I don't always.

So there are plenty of times when I'm nymphing, let's say April, May, June around here, you got a lot of bugs in the system, we got a ton of great hatches. You've been here, you know what saying? There's a lot of mayflies and cataflies and stoneflies and midges and craneflies. I mean, come on, there's all these hatches. So trout are very used to having their focus mid column, lower and then mid column, upper mid column. Sometimes if we're lucky, all the way up on the surface and we get the fish dry flies. We all love that.

I'll take every chance I get to fish tries. I'm saying it's about their focus to me. Trout are not hovering mid column. They're not hovering upper mid column. It's not a lake, right? I'm talking about, we're talking about rivers. I'm talking about rivers right now. And they might eat something mid column and they go right back down. Eat and they go right back down. And their bellies are like hovering in there right above the river bed. I bring this up because I don't always want my neph to be right on the bottom. So how much weight do I want?

has a lot to do with where do I really want to spend, where do I want my nymph to spend most of its time? There's something I call tracking. Another thing I call leading, tracking the flies versus kind of leading the flies. And then sometimes I'd like to be down in the strike zone, just right above the bottom. That's what I call a strike zone, that cushion of water that's gone slower. Other times they were talking about a second ago how I'd rather bottom bounce. That's a different thing than strike zone rides. And then other times, again, I'd like to have those

Tom Rosenbauer (39:05.167) flies kind of on a very slow drop just coming down through the column and they're gonna drop because they have some weight but I'll kind of keep them on a slow drop so they're there available to the flies more mid column mid lower column okay so I guess to answer your question it really depends on what what I'm trying to achieve and so I might start with my all right let's say it's a walking pace and and it's two feet deep

Right? Okay. Yeah. I might start with 30 centigrams. I kind of go by centigrams because I do mix and match split shot and then tungsten beats. Just for reference, everybody out there, like a three millimeter bead on a fly. So yeah, in the hook too. It's like 25 centigrams. I don't know. Let's round it up to 30 and say that that compares quite well to a number one split shot. And luckily most of the split shot manufacturers, their number ones are almost always 30 centigrams.

their number fours are almost always 20 centigrams and the sixes I think are 15. Excuse me. So we can mix and match all that, but I might very well start with either 30 centigrams of split shot, a number one, or a number 14 in my box would have a three millimeter bead on it. And that would be nice to, in that walking pace, two foot deep, to get down in the strike zone, I'm gonna just say like two seconds.

Boy, this is also relative, you know, but I feel like I often want to get if I really want to do strike zone rides Get down pretty quick, but not bottom bounce necessarily then 30 centigrams would be nice for me That's that's a great starting point for me around here average kind of flows I'm often starting with about 30 centigrams. It could be combined weight of two unweighted flies, too But if we're talking split shot, that's 30 centigrams or I mean, that's a number one. That's a number for me Okay, that's a good starting point

But it can be pretty light. I often go number, you know, two number ones, double that up. It's funny, was just talking with a guy through email right before you and I got connected here. And he was saying, I fish pretty heavy, blah, blah. This and that throughout the conversation. And finally I realized, I need to ask him what heavy is. And he said, oh, heavy to me is like a two-fold.

Tom Rosenbauer (41:28.601) 2.5 millimeter bead. Whoa, that's not heavy. man. All these terms are so relative. It helps to kind of understand what we're talking about. For me, it's not uncommon uncommon at all to fish. I don't know 90 centigrams. That's getting pretty heavy. You get up to a full gram and well, plenty of my streamers weigh that much. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And so when would you add more shot? Let's say you're fishing a deeper run and your first try, you mean it's always better to try with lighter shot, fewer shot and then add rather than trying to pry them off there. You act like it's really hard to pry them Well, we're going to get into that, right? We're going get into that. No, I hear you. Yeah, I agree. So. Yeah.

You know, mean, help people out here if they're, know, maybe they don't know how deep the water is. Maybe it's a little dirty and they don't know the water. So they don't know how deep it is. Yeah. What's the philosophy for, you know, for what to add first and then, and then what to add after that. Yeah. I've often called it a top-down approach. I'm sure I published an article about that. Might even have a video about it. I.

I'd rather, you know, kind of cover that mid column on the first drift. Even if I already have my weight established and I'm just going over to the next lane and I mean it, the next lane might only be two feet over and I'm just taking a step over and now I'm going to nymph that. I really don't want to touch on the first drift. I don't want to hit the bottom. Yeah, because the fish might be aggressive. When they're feeding in mid water, they're more aggressive and they're going to grab it quicker. I'm a big believer in trout's focus is somewhere in that water column.

And the trout's focus often is right in front of them, right in that strike zone. A ton of other times their focus is that mid column. And like you're saying, if I go straight to the bottom, I actually went below their focus and I'm wasting time. Yeah. So my first drift I might, I try to be, oh, put on just what I think I might need, right? Not, not extra. And then again, two or three drifts, four drifts, five drifts. I don't know, pick your number and the situation calls for it.

Tom Rosenbauer (43:47.637) you know if you get no response and I realize that I'm not getting down. If I don't see the slow down on that indicator or the slow down on that sider depending on the rigging method. If I don't see the slow down then I know I'm not down in the strike zone and if I haven't touched bottom then obviously I know I'm well I don't have enough weight to touch bottom either so then I'll add weight and I don't know that I'm necessarily gonna double it but I might get kind of stubborn right away too.

I don't necessarily stand in one lane and go, okay, 10 more centigrams and 10 casts later. Okay, 10 more centigrams. You know what mean? Cause we kind of have to be honest too. Like if you put 30 casts in one line, that trout's not going to eat on the 31st. You you disturb them. Boy, especially around here and a lot of the Eastern part of the country, you know, we've got low water conditions and yeah, whatever. Even in average conditions, trout are not going to be all that tolerant, let's say of repeated.

drifts over and over and they won't give you the grace, again that word, to allow repeated presentations. They already saw it. They they start to know something's going on and they're either spooked or they're out definitely. Your first couple of casts are definitely your most important cast. Exactly, I totally agree. But I do think we can ride above them and not disturb them all that much. then go a little deeper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's kind of my strategy on that top-down approach, you know? Yep, okay.

Yeah. Now let's, let's get into, let's get into the, I have a feeling you're going to, I have a feeling what you're going to say, but let's get into the, okay. You want to remove a split shot. Maybe you got too many on you're hanging up. Yeah. And maybe you moved to a little bit shallower run and you want to take a split shot off. Yeah. Yeah. What's your secret for removing the split shot? Well, first you could have the right shot.

And that shot has a divot in the top. I'm calling it a divot. It's a little dip there. Instead of like that flat. I will use the Blackbird shot as an example of the shot that I really do not like. You see it recommended plenty of times. The Blackbird shot is perfectly round. It doesn't have that little divot in the top. You can get some cheap stuff from other manufacturers too. That perfectly round stuff, not for me. Because it's much harder to remove.

Tom Rosenbauer (46:12.683) The way I shot have that divot. does. Yeah. Your shot has the divot. Tom. All right. I got to go out and buy some though. Wow. Nice. Exactly. So you're to be a drop shot guy. Right. Just go all the way to drop shot. No. Anyway, so that divot is there and that allows me to, well, I grabbed, I need hemostats to do this. Okay. And I, I want the right, whatever. want hemostats that can.

do what I'm describing. I'm gonna take a hemostat that has a fine enough point to be able to grab one side of that divot, one side of that, you know, on the right side of the crack, let's say, and then I'm gonna get my thumbnail and pull from the left side of the crack. And I mean it's that soft shot. They call it soft for that reason. It'll open right up. It does not take, I've seen guys taking a knife and trying to pry it open. They make, well, they make hemostats or tools that are like hemostats that have

Something that's it's supposed to kind of it's like a little wedge and supposed to go into the crack and you know You can squeeze it open up. Yeah, that's that's better for bigger. That might be okay I guess for bigger shot. Yeah, we're talking about some shot. That's real small size sixes are really small That's just that wedge idea is just gonna destroy those split shot in my experience. I have one that was like it's in my office closet right now I don't use it anymore. I bought one. thought this would be even easier. I got a few tools like

in And the knife, again, I up Joe Humphreys. That's what Humphreys said to do. get your knife in there and get it in the crack. I don't know, I think that's one of the cool things about, like I said, the modernization of fishing, of our industry here, of fly fishing, is you do have better shot, you have better options. And I mean, it's just not that hard. I can pull that off and I can bring my line in, take the shot off, and be fishing again in like 10 seconds. mean. So force of sent.

find forceps and your thumbnail. That's it. And it's not hard. Maybe the hardest thing is to see where the crack is. You know, because it is a round shot, but then again, it's got this little divot. So find the divot, find the crack, and you know, if the light's bad, whatever, tilt around, maybe if you have to wear readers, whatever the case, you gotta be able to see it. You know, it's like tying a fly on. If you have trouble finding the hook eye, then you might have trouble finding that crack.

Tom Rosenbauer (48:34.646) in the split shot too. It's like opening an oyster, right? It's like chucking an oyster. You know, little place. Yeah. Except for using hemostats. Okay. No, it's not that hard. I can take it on or I can put it on. Like I said, don't over crimp it. Yeah. And then I can take it off, store it or put it in my mouth and then put it back on later on and off. mean, I always tell people I can reuse it over and over until I accidentally drop it into water. You know what mean? That's what usually happens.

You know, it just fell right on my finger. Seriously, you could put it on four or five times and reuse it. Okay. Okay. One other question before I let you go. Do you ever use tungsten putty? Do ever use the tungsten soft weight? Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, Oh, I've had, had two of those tubs. I'd say the last I used it was five or six years ago. I love, I love.

just kind of following the industry, hearing other people's ideas. And if there's a good angler, somebody who I trust, a friend who I trust, mean, whoever it is. If a good angler has a good idea, I'm trying it. So I tried Tungsten putty. For me, it's actually more hassle than it's worth. This putting split shot on and taking it off for me is very fast process. okay. It's more direct. I know exactly what it weighs rather than taking a kind of a random piece of putty.

No, I could get close with the tungsten. The other thing is I fish a lot in the wintertime. And the tungsten putty, this was kind of the deal breaker for me, is very hard in, I don't know, 30 degrees and lower. I'm making that up. Maybe even 40 degrees and lower. Certainly when it gets cold, I had a hard time keeping it malleable, I guess. And I've heard people say, well, you take a split shot and then you can add a little bit of putty around that. That's fine.

I never really had much of a problem like keeping it in place. That's not the thing. It's the other things I said for me. The inaccuracy of it and then yeah, it gets too hard for me in winter. Okay. I like it because I can modify. Well, you can modify it just as easily by adding or subtracting shot if it's quick and easy like you say and I've used the putty, but it does come off the leader too. It doesn't stay on like shot.

Tom Rosenbauer (51:00.082) Yeah, I suppose it's not as reliable, know, that's gonna stay on there. I mean everybody's gonna find their own way, you know? yeah. I said earlier, like I'm pretty opinionated about things because I have tried just about everything. But then everybody's got their own, well, preferences, skill set, watershed, know, different trout. We're not getting all that technical about, you other things I guess besides split shot here. you know.

trout respond to different drifts, different things in different watersheds. like I said, I'm just always really open-minded to, hey man, if somebody else likes their system, and they feel like they don't need split shot, then don't use it. But if you're looking for the next thing, I mean, I'll use split shot with streamers too. If I'm going under the water, split shot is an option for me. I don't need it. Where do you put them with a streamer usually?

if you're trying to get a streamer deeper. That's kind of an important question, I guess. That's neat thing because it's not five inches away. For me, it's usually 10 or 12 inches up. And I guess the reason is I'm no longer trying to be out of touch with that streamer. With a nymphing approach, we're often, you know, we're trying to get a dead drift, right? Usually. And we're trying to allow that nymph to be like the real thing, you know, and just kind of go along with the current, a dead drift.

So I'm trying to be slightly out of touch sometimes and then back in touch. We call it slipping contact. But that's my goal. One lane, coming down naturally in one lane with a nymph. But as soon as I put a streamer on, I've already been dead drifting things, like a nymph. Now I rarely dead drift a streamer. So I'll put the split shot 10 or 12 inches up and I'm not gonna lose contact with the streamer though.

I'm simply putting the split shot on there to make the whole system a little bit heavier. And that's all. And I guess sometimes I've put the split shot even two feet up and I don't feel like I'm losing contact then with my streamer either. Because of the way that I'm moving it. We could go down that rabbit hole too, but that has a lot to do with then how you're to move your streamer. Are you casting into the currents or against the currents? All that stuff. Generally I'm saying that when I'm fishing a streamer, I'm trying to be in contact.

Tom Rosenbauer (53:22.066) So it almost doesn't matter how much or how far away my split shot is away from the streamer. I'm still gonna be in contact with the streamer. And I'm just getting it there. I'm just putting it there to get the streamer further down in the water column. And it almost does the same thing as a sinking line can do. And that's a whole nother conversation. My buddy Bill and I have good friendly arguments about that. He's like, he can't do the same thing. I'm like, yeah, I think he actually can.

do very similar things with a sinking line, with a split shot almost replicating what a sinking line. Yeah, and it's better than, I I often will put a split shot right on the head of the streamer, because, know, he had behead willybuggers. I gotcha, And then split shot right in front of it, but I can see where when you're retrieving, it's gonna ride up instead of riding a little bit more in the water column, deeper in the water column. So that makes sense, the way you're doing it.

Well, most of my streamers are already weighted. And mine too, really. And because I prefer that again, and no longer are we trying to get dead drifts. Okay. So most of them are weighted, but if it's not weighted enough and I got heavier water, absolutely. It's not a big deal to me to add. Well, I'll say usually if I'm adding weight to a streamer rig, it's heavier than what I'm adding for an infing rate. Cause again, I'm trying to get the whole system to be moving through currents and you got, well, drag cutting across the line and stuff.

And I know that, you know, is obviously affecting the drop rate. And so I might need double the weight. It's not uncommon for me to put an AB shot, which is 60 centigrams, I think it is, or two number ones, you know. I'll use a little bit heavier shot. If I'm thinking about even adding a split shot at all to a streamer rig, it's not gonna be a number six. You know what I mean? For me, it's gonna need to be a little bit more significant of weight. I'm not afraid of weight, you know?

Maybe summarize this whole conversation that way. I always feel like it's just weight. I don't care. I've heard plenty of people say like, I just add the littlest bit of weight that I can. I'm like, well, it's weight. I don't care. I, I don't know, but I don't care about casting it either. It's just, it's Some, know, you know, the old saying what's the difference between a good nymph angler and a great angler one split shot. Yeah. Yeah. I very much.

Tom Rosenbauer (55:46.914) I find that to be the case a lot of times. You gotta get down. I think people shy away from weight just way too much. If you are going under the water, then you're need weight. And sometimes you need a lot of weight. I don't care, you know, whatever it takes. All right, you got me going. I'm going out and restocking my split shot supply tomorrow. You gotta send me pictures of all the hogboys that you catch. Don't hold your breath for that.

It's good. It's just another thing to play around with. wait. Well, Don, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us today. again, it's a subject that I don't know that much about. And I learned a lot. I'm sure my listeners learned a lot. you've always got some really perceptive and interesting theory. So I appreciate you coming on the podcast. That's nice of you, I appreciate it, Tom. I always enjoy the conversations with you.

And I've learned a ton from you over the years. I don't know what you've learned from me. No, come on. We've talked about it. I mean, you were an absolute influence for me from the beginning and still all the way through my fishing days. Yeah. Well, thank you, Dom. That's very nice of you to say. Yeah. All right, man. Yep. Thanks for having I will talk to you soon. Okay. See you, bud.