Amelia Jensen on Lowering Fish Mortality with Better Photo Techniques
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host Tom Rosenbauer. And my guest this week is the great Amelia Jensen, one of the best trout anglers that I know, also, fly fishing photographer and videographer extraordinaire.
And Amelia and I are gonna talk about how to try to take pictures of fish while they're still in the water. We all wanna take at least a picture of a trophy fish that we catch. Hopefully, you don't wanna take a picture of every fish you catch. But there is always that one fish, whether it's beautiful coloring or means something to you that you wanna take a picture of. And we're gonna talk about ways to get a good photograph of that fish while still keeping it in the water or at least very close to the water. So hope you enjoy that. And Amelia has got a lot of good tips for doing that.
But first, we're gonna answer some questions in the Fly Box. And if you have some questions for the Fly Box, you can send them to me at
Anyway, let's do some questions. The first one is an email from Jason from Oklahoma. I've been fly fishing just shy of 25 years and in that time, I've gained an appreciation for what you and team Orvis do on a consistent basis to promulgate...promulgate, boy, that's a tough one...the sport and preserve our fish habitats.
Couple of questions, with almost a quarter-century of fishing comes a quarter centuries worth of dirt stains, pond scum, tiny strands of river silt, fish slime, bug, guts, oil, wax, sweat, and blood spots from scraping my hands on rocks and fly hook punctures in my fingers and some of my cork grips. After all my outings, I clean my rods with some low concentrate dish soap and warm water.
This works great in the blanks and rod guides but not so well on the handles. Some of my buddies chide that I should not clean the handles stating it adds character to the rod. My feeling is that my arsenal contains some rods, certainly north and most likely just south of $1,000. And I'm gonna do my best to preserve them and make sure they're as close to showroom condition as I can get. Any suggestions for rod grips?
Well, yeah, Jason, I checked with a rod shop and they recommend 400 grit sandpaper. And what I would do, and I've done this on a few of my rods. What I would do is put some painter's tape or masking tape around the blank just above the cork grip or the wine stark, and then on the reel seat where it joins the cork just to make sure you don't scratch that up. And then just carefully use 400 grit sandpaper until the color comes back to the cork. You're gonna take a tiny, tiny, tiny amount of cork off by sanding it, but it's gonna look just like new and hopefully, that'll bring the rods back into the condition that pleases you.
Another email from Peter from Bayfield, Colorado. I really enjoy your podcasts, videos, and books, each has greatly improved my angling abilities. I have two questions for you. One, in your experience, when using a dry-dropper rig, is there any difference in performance when the bottom nymph is tied to the same piece of tippet as opposed to tied to the bend of the hook of the dry fly? It's anecdotal at best, but I seem to catch far more fish when the dry fly and nymph are attached to the same line.
When discussing catch or release, I've had several people tell me that keeping a fish over 15 inches allows numerous juvenile fish in the same system to reach adulthood. Is there any truth to this? It seems that raptors and other predators always keep rivers and streams pretty well balanced. But there are several other rivers in Colorado that have a prevalence of large fish and I wonder how juvenile fish fair in these systems?
Well, Peter, first of all in your first question, I'm not quite sure. You talk about the dry fly and the nymph tied to the same piece of tippet, and I assume what you're talking about is that you are tying both the dry fly and the nymph...you're tying the nymph to the eye of the dry fly so that the dry fly kind of rides in line with the rest of the tippet as opposed to the band. And I don't see any problem with that at all. And a lot of people do it that way, probably less likely to tangle.
But however, if you are for some reason actually tying them on the same piece of tippet and you're leaving a tag in long from when you tie the dry fly on and tying your nymph on there, that is not a good idea. Because if you hook a fish on the nymph and you put pressure on the tag end of that tippet knot or the knot to your dry fly, it may weaken and come off. So I wouldn't do it that way. I wouldn't tie it to the tag end. But if, you know, you're tying a second piece to the eye of the dry fly that'll work out just fine.
As far as your discussion of catch and release, that's a really complicated question. Population dynamics in any fisheries system is very, very complex. And it's difficult even for fishery managers to balance a fish population by removing certain sizes or keeping certain sizes, and nature seems to keep things in balance. I don't think that by removing 15-inch fish from the system you're gonna have any more fish in the system.
A couple of things to remember. One is that the number of fish in the system is usually determined by habitat, feeding spots and hiding spots. And you know, there's gonna be some excess always, they're gonna get eaten by a predator and those are the ones that can't find a really good piece of habitat that's protected enough. So it's pretty much limited by what my friend, biologist Bob Bachman, calls seats in the restaurant. The number of seats in the restaurant in the stream are gonna determine how many fish survive in the stream.
The other thing to remember is that those 15-inch trout are very vigorous spawners and they're gonna produce a lot of eggs. As they get really, really big they tend to be less fecund. But you know, a 15-inch brown trout, even though it's probably gonna eat some young trout, it's gonna eat a lot of other things like crayfish, and sculpins, and dace. So I would not buy into the fact that you're gonna have more fish in the stream by killing those 15 inches. Plus, you're not gonna have many 15 inches left in the stream if you kill them.
Esca: Hi, Tom Esca[SP] from Denmark here. First, I would like to thank you for all the knowledge you share on fishing, it's very much appreciated and I've learned so much. I'm going bonefishing for the first time in my life in Bahamas this fall. I'm a trout angler and I mostly do coastal fishing shooting type line, blind fishing covering a lot of water after sea-runs or sea trout. I do smaller streams with the four-way broad after brown trout and graylings. And also after sea-runs with foam beetles that we throw upstream and streaming fast, downstream with streams.
Occasionally, I go salmon fishing with a one-handed 8 weight rod or a double-handed rod in the larger rivers. But my question is, as a trout angler, what would you have liked to know for your first bonefish trip with regards to spotting the fish, casting to the fish, stripping, setting the hook, fighting the fish, and landing the fish. Or anything else you would have liked to know the first time you went bonefishing.
So I hope you have the time to answer my question. And I must apologize, the background noise I'm out fishing and just sitting under an umbrella here waiting for a storm to pass. Thank you very much.
Tom: So Esca there are lots of things that can frustrate a trout angler when bonefishing, and I'll try to go through the ones that I think are most important. First of all, you wanna have a minimum to no false cast, if you can help it. The fish are moving quickly, you generally get one at the most two shots at a feeding bonefish. And you don't wanna be waving your fly line back and forth in the air because it's gonna spook the fish and it's also gonna waste time.
So you need to be able to deliver a fly at, say, 40 feet maximum maybe 50 with either no false cast or one false cast. That's really important. In the wind, over your wrong shoulder, backhanded whatever, gonna have to learn to do that.
And then, you know, casting quickly again, unlike trout fishing where we can work one fish and keep casting to it numerous times, you're gonna get one shot. So you need to be able to react quickly and cast quickly. Wait for the right shot, don't cast to a bonefish as soon as you see it, particularly if it's moving toward you, or even crosswise in front of you. Wait till you get a good shot, don't just throw it right to the fish. Watch the fish for a minute, see if the fish changes course, often they do, and wait for your best shot.
And the other thing is, you know, read the fish's body language. You can tell...you'll be able to see bonefish when you're fishing them which is why it's so exciting. And read the fish's body language. When you see the fish kind of wiggling get nervous or pounce to one side, it's probably got your fly. So watch the fish's body language. If the fish moves away from your fly, then you know you gotta either change your retrieves or change your fly because the fish didn't like something about the fly.
Playing a bonefish isn't that much different than playing a big trout really. You let them run and then you put pressure on them when you can and you bring them in. It's not unlike catching a large brown trout or rainbow except they don't jump. So that's not gonna be a big deal for you and it's more gonna be presenting the fly.
And actually, spotting bonefish everybody says that's so difficult. But it takes a couple of days, you'll get into spotting the bonefish, that's not the hardest part of it. The hardest part of it is getting that fly to the fish with one quick cast.
This one's from Cory from the Bronx. Hi, I've been listening to your podcast over the years and I would like to give a shout-out to the helpful staff at the Orvis store in Yonkers, New York, Ridge Hill Mall. My first question is if you have considered a consolidated dictionary that one could refer to when listening to your extremely informative podcast? I find myself getting a bit lost and still sometimes in the jargon. though it's becoming more clear.
Two more questions, how do you know when to leave an area or move to another location as opposed to sticking it out until you get a bite? I hooked a largemouth once on my last cast of the day. Or to be frank, how do you know if you are fool fishing a location or genius fishing location where no one thought of to fish? I assume it's just through experience, advice, and developing fishing eyes. Do you have anything to add?
Well, I'll answer your second question first. I don't have much to add, I mean that's really what it is. It's experience, advice, and developing fishing eyes. And you know, one of the things that should determine how long you stay in a spot is...well, two things really. First, are there fish there? And if you know that there are a lot of fish there because there's a lot of bass around, or there's a lot of trout in that stream, it's a dense population if you somehow know that, then it's probably worth spending some time in a good-looking piece of water.
But you also have to consider, have I spooked those fish? So if it's a great big deep pool and you're quite a ways from the fish and you're casting over into that pool, probably you can spend some time there. Or riffle where the water is moving real fast and the fish aren't gonna be that spooky.
But if you're in like a small stream and it's a fairly still pool, and you can see all the way to the bottom and, you know, you've made a bunch of cast and you haven't caught anything, well it's probably time to move on because you've probably scared those fish. So you know, knowing how dense a population is and knowing or estimating whether you think you've scared all the fish in the pool are probably gonna determine how long you're gonna stay there.
Your question about a consolidated dictionary for the podcast, Corey, I can't think of a more boring project than to produce a dictionary. And, you know, I realize that there's a lot of jargon in fly fishing and I try to eliminate or explain jargon here in the podcast but I am not gonna write a dictionary, a fly fishing dictionary. If someone else wants to do it, boy, they're welcome to do it, and it would be probably helpful. But it's not gonna be something I'm gonna tackle, I'd much rather write something else. So sorry about that, not gonna produce a dictionary.
Here's an email from Liam from Pennsylvania. I taught myself to fly fish with help from many different resources online and in books. And I often hear questions on the podcast about people who do not necessarily have a mentor in fly fishing. My tip for them is to not try to replicate someone else's style exactly and find the niche of fly fishing that you personally enjoy.
Persistence is another thing I think matters the most in the beginning, and knowing there is a light at the end of the tunnel of initial struggles. Just absorb knowledge, stay patient, have a good attitude, and as many of today's resources will help that learning curve flatten out. Thanks again, Tom, for being an integral part of Orvis in the fly fishing community.
Well, thank you, Liam, I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you very much, that's a good philosophy to have. And thanks for sharing it.
Here's an email from Andrew from New York City. I had a question about preparing dubbing, rabbit fur specifically. When I go to use my prepackaged rabbit dubs, I notice they are filled with little dense knots. These clumps of dense rabbit fur balls in the dub make it difficult to dub a perfectly tapered noodle on the thread. Is there a way to re-fluff the dubs or should I just pluck out the little balls? I find the same thing in a lot of synthetic sealed dubs.
Andrew, maybe the brand of dubbing that you're using...you know, a good dubbing is probably not gonna have those knots and little balls in it. Sounds like somebody maybe didn't pay too much attention to the quality control. You can try to pick them out.
The other thing you could try to do is run them through an old coffee grinder one of those inexpensive spinning coffee grinders, that may chop up the stuff more. But probably the best thing to do is just pick them out and throw them away. Dubbing is not that expensive and they're probably not a great percentage of the dubbing package that you have.
Dean: Hi Tom, my name is Dean. I'm calling from Ohio. I've been fly fishing for a few years now and this was my first winter steelhead season using a two-handed rod. I've been trying to come up with challenges for myself using different methods of catching different species of fish and I decided to try and make it a goal this year to catch steelhead with a 7-weight fiberglass rod that I recently picked up.
My question is if you could give me a recommendation on the hook set. I've been having a little bit of an issue keeping a hook set on the steelhead and not losing the fish. I'm using micro intruder style patterns, you know, with a trailing hook. I only came close to landing one fish before it managed to get off. I'm assuming that the problem is because of the lack of stiffness on the rod tip.
Is there any recommendations that you could offer or method of setting the hook would be greatly appreciated. I'd also, if I can, like to give a shout out to John, the store manager of Orvis Westlake Ohio. He's become a great help with me in my endeavors in fly tying which has become very therapeutic. I almost enjoy it more than I actually do going out fishing. Again, thanks for what you do, appreciate your time. Take care.
Tom: Well, Dean, you know, for one thing, steelhead are just a fish that's gonna get off the line often. So you know, losing a few fish here and there I mean, probably losing, you know, half of the steelhead that you hook you're doing pretty well. So you may be looking for an answer of something that just isn't gonna be there. You're gonna lose them, they jump and they run, and sometimes we don't hook them in the right place.
But as far as advice on setting the hook, if you're swinging flies, and I think you are using intruders, yeah, so you're swinging flies, you should not be setting the hook. The best way to hook a steelhead or basically any fish on a swung fly is to just let the fish take the fly when you feel the weight of the fish, let it turn with the fly, and then put some pressure on the fish, some firm pressure, that'll set the hook for you. The fish will set the hook itself, but if you try to set the hook you'll often pull the fly away from the fish.
So maybe thinking of... I know it's tough after a lifetime of trout fishing to not set the hook when you feel something take. But on a swing fly like that, you're better off not setting the hook and just letting the fish turn with the fly and then putting pressure on it.
Here's an email from Cameron from Texas. I currently live on the outskirts of Austin, Texas, and the majority of my fishing is done in clear hill country rivers. One of my favorite aspects of fly fishing in this area is the ability to target a wide range of species. The stretch of river closest to my home, we won't say where it is, the Guadalupe bass and carp are particularly aggressive. This brings me to my question. I've consistently noticed a fair number of catfish, a mixture of blue, channel, and flathead that tend to loosely school with the smaller carp.
The strange part is that despite this being the only spot I've seen carp actively chase a fly, I found these catfish to be far spookier than any other fish I've dealt with. I assume this is from the water clarity and high pressure on them from conventional anglers. I've applied the skills that I've successfully used in stalking carp in an effort to hook one of them, but they are far and away the most particular and skittish fish I've ever targeted. Is there anything you might be able to recommend, outside of the obvious slow approach and long leader, that might help in fooling one of them?
I typically am using 5 or 8 weight rod with a 9 to 12-foot tapered leader ending in between 1x to 3x fluorocarbon tippet. My favorite fly for this stretch is essentially an all-out all-craft for and dumbbell eyes Clouser with the addition of an [inaudible 00:22:02] tail for a bit of worminess. PS, not to beat a dead horse but I'd obviously like to thank you for all you do for the sport, particularly I admire that you aren't afraid to stand up for conservation issues. Thanks for reading.
Well, it's Orvis that's not afraid to stand up for conservation issues, but thank you very much. You know, it's funny, Cameron, I have a carp spot that I like to fish that also has catfish. And I have found that when the catfish are up on the flats, they are extremely skittish. A lot more skittish than the carp. I think they can see better than the carp. But I've seen the same thing, they're really tough.
And it sounds like you're doing everything right, you know, you gotta be stealthy, you're using a 12-foot tapered leader and, you know, a 3x tippet. You could try going to a 15-foot leader by adding 3 feet of 021 or 023 monofilament on the butt section of your leader, but I don't know if that's gonna help.
The one thing that might be spooking them, and you'll know this, when you cast, are the fish-spooking when the fly hits the water? If you're using a dumbbell clouser, sometimes the prop of a fly will spook really skittish fish. So what you might wanna try, you're gonna have to lead the fish more with this because it's not gonna sink as fast. But I would try some small bead chain eyes on your flies, or even unweighted flies like a big nymph or something with, you know, non-beadhead nymph, just an unweighted nymph, something that's gonna sink fairly slowly.
But, you know, I've found that sometimes when fish are skittish with heavy eyes on a fly the plop scares them. So try a lighter fly but other than that sounds like you're doing everything right. And good luck catching those catfish, they're tough.
Here's an email from Andy from Fredericksburg, Virginia. First, thanks for all you do for the present and future fishing. I've been listening to your podcast for about two months now and truly enjoy it. I'm a novice fly fisherman and got started fly fishing about four years ago.
Primarily I would fish for bass, panfish, and other warm...shad, bass, panfish, and other warm-water fish. I do my best for trout in the cooler months. Also, I prefer to tie my own flies rather than buy, just feels awesome when a fish bites a fly you tied. My question is, and forgive me if it's a novice one, but when tying and fishing streamers with barbell eyes, what dictates when you should fish a streamer with eyes above the hook versus ones that are below? I've had great success with either but I'm really curious if this even matters since I've tested both virgs [SP] in a fish tank and they fall and land on their eyes, 9 out of 10 times.
Well, Andy, you know, whether you put the eyes on top of the shank, or on the bottom of the shank, in other words, does the fly ride hook point up or hook point down is generally a matter of how the originator of the pattern wants to tie it. I know a lot of the trout streamers have flies that are tied underneath the shank so that they ride hook down. And that's just due to the way the fly designer wanted the fly to ride. But a lot of them tie the dumbbell eyes, which makes more sense, on top of the hook so that the hook rides hook point up and is less likely to snag on the bottom.
But I don't know of any pragmatic reason for doing it one way or the other than if you're in an area with a lot of rocks and snags on the bottom it's probably best to have one that rides hook point up. But generally just due to the design of the fly by the person who designed the pattern.
Here is a question from email, a question from Marcus from Germany. Thanks for answering my last question on UV materials. I wanted to congratulate you and Dan for the excellent carp podcast two weeks ago. I've got a few more ideas on carp fishing that might help and everyone's attempt to catch carp.
First, on locating carp. Even in fairly stained water, mainly in the early morning hours, you can see fine bubbles on the surface of the water or fine bubbles that rise to the surface in a bulk. If these bubbles burst quickly, they're most definitely gases from the bottom and are not very interesting. But if they stay on the surface for longer, those bubbles often come from the gills of feeding carp that are heads down in the lake substrate. Also, those bubbles seem to move along in a very slow pace, casting to those fish can be really productive.
Secondly, on the moving habits of carp. When you see carp on the surface, the way they jump out of the water helps a lot to figure out what they're doing. The splashier they rise, the more those carp seem to be on the move, maybe from their holding spots to a known feeding ground. So casting to jumping fish almost never ends in a take.
When you see a carp rise only with their heads out of the water really subtle and quiet, almost like a big trout sipping a small spinner in the evening hours. You should keep your eyes peeled for those bubbles again because that fish is certainly feeding on something and just cleaned his gills from sand or silt.
Over here in Europe, carp are also caught right in mid-water. So maybe some suspended nymphs or emerges under an indicator can also work fine. But you really need to know their patrolling routes for that one. Thanks for all your great input on the podcast. I certainly wouldn't be nearly as successful in fly fishing for the past two years since I bought my first flyrod. As I'm a carp angler for almost 30 years, I wanted to share more insight in carp behavior. Well, thank you very much, Marcus, those are excellent, excellent suggestions.
And I'm gonna use them myself. I didn't realize that the bubbles that burst quickly are stuff on the bottom and the bigger bubbles are from carp gills. I do cast a bubble sometimes but I didn't know the difference. So that's really appreciated and a great tip. And also the fish cleaning their gills from sand or silt I did not realize that either. So that's very, very valuable advice, and thank you for sharing that with us.
Here's an email from Bruce from Colorado. Hi Tom, in a recent podcast your listener was asking about the pros and cons for Vibram and felt sole wading boots. One of your negatives for felt sole boot was that it holds parasites like the zebra and quagga mussels. This leads me to my question is, I recently fished two different states about a week apart, didn't think about the possibility of cross-contamination. What is the best way to clean and disinfect felt-soled boots? I called my local fly shop and they said to freeze the boots. Does this work sufficiently?
Bruce, I don't think freezing boots work efficiently because the critters that you might carry, you know, they're gonna be eggs or larvae on your boots, are perfectly adapted to freezing water and can survive that. So I don't think freezing is gonna help.
The common practice and the most accepted practice from biologists and fisheries managers is clean, inspect, and dry, or inspect clean and dry, probably is a better way of putting it. But when you're moving from one watershed to another, you wanna, first of all, look at the boots and make sure there's no mud, or algae, or debris, or anything on the boots.
Then you clean them with water. You can use hot water if it makes you feel better, cold water. But you wanna physically clean the boots with a wire brush or something, getting all the debris off the boots. And then let them dry, preferably in the sun for a couple of days. Some wading boots take a long time to dry. But, you know, putting them in the sun is the best way to do it, if you can. If not, maybe a really hot hairdryer might help things along.
But clean, inspect, and dry is the accepted practice. And, you know, it's not just for felt soles. Felt soles do carry a little bit more contamination along with them, but wading boots also have fabric and they have laces, and they have tongue. So you need to check all through those wading boots to make sure that they're clean. But I wouldn't rely on freezing them, I don't think that's a good idea.
Here's an email from...oh, I didn't get the name. I don't know if I got the name. Just got your book, the "Orvis Fly-Fishing Guide" completely revised and updated edition. That's a mouthful. Love it so far. As a beginner I wanna know, as I'm going through the book, will I be building or learning on each fly that will when I'm done with the book give me the tools to be able to make flies from just the patterns? Podcast answer or return the email would be great. Thanks.
Well, I'll give you a podcast answer. Yeah, you know, a good fly time guide, in my opinion, teaches you by tying patterns. And the patterns in that book were especially selected, each one of them, to give you a different skill. So, you know, there are a few weird processes that, you know, certain flies might require that you might have to go elsewhere. But you should be...by tying the patterns in that book, it gives you the skills to tie 90% of the fly patterns you're gonna see. So I hope it works out for you.
Here's an email from Gavin from East Tennessee. I've been fly fishing now for about two years and having no friends locally fly fishing I've had to teach myself. Your podcast and YouTube videos have been invaluable in aiding me catching dozens of trout over the past two years. I have a couple of questions for the podcast I haven't heard anyone ask, and I'm currently pondering.
First, sling bags versus vest, can you tell me the benefits of one versus the other? I bought an Orvis Guide Sling when I got my first rod and reel setup, which I like. However, even though it's nice to be able to store everything together and carry it with you to the river it becomes super cumbersome when fishing. The strap constantly snags my waders when swinging around to the front to access my fly boxes, indicators, etc.
I've never fished with a vest before. They seem like they'd be much more comfortable but I'm also concerned with being able to carry a little extra like, say, lunch and an extra water bottle for longer hiking fishing days in the Smokies. So is there an alternative to a sling bag that doesn't put you in such a minimalist position as a vest would?
Secondly, I've recently taken to Euro nymphing, it's been a great way to catch more fish, especially in the small mountain streams in the park as the brown water makes indicator fishing very difficult for a newbie like me. I've been looking into getting a 10 foot 3 weight with the Hydros Tactical Nymph line for this specific purpose.
My questions about that are one, if I just buy the rod, can I simply buy an extra spool for my reel to change between my regular floating line rig when fishing my 9-foot 5 weight and the new Euro nymphing rod to save cost? Or is it necessary to buy a new reel to match the smaller rod?
Third, on the subject of Euro nymphing with tactical nymph line if you're on the river and have been using your Euro nymphing line and leader, if you happen to see a nice pool and a bunch of fish rising, can you use those lines to throw dry flies? Thanks for your time and also for everything you and Orvis do for the sport, and for lands and water conservation.
All right. So on the vest versus sling bag, Gavin, I like a sling bag personally because I can push that thing back around me and I got nothing in front of me to get in the way. And if it's getting in the way, you might wanna look at your wader suspenders. If you're catching a sling bag on the wader suspenders, maybe you need to move one of the buckles somewhere, or maybe you can try adjusting your suspenders a little differently so that it doesn't catch.
But, you know, generally, I look at it this way, if you're gonna carry a lot of fly boxes, and a lot of leaders and tippet and a few small gadgets, a vest is a great way to go. If you wanna carry a lot of fly boxes and gadgets, plus you wanna carry a camera launch, a light raincoat, you know, other bulkier things, water bottle, vests do have a compartment in the back but it's really tough to get to. You have to take the vest off to get to that stuff.
So if you're gonna carry stuff that's not small, and slim, and flat when you're fishing, a sling bag is probably the way to go. If you're not carrying a lot of that stuff, just fishing gear and fly boxes, then a vest is probably great. It's really a personal thing.
The other thing that you may want to consider, although this is a more expensive option, but what you might consider is the bug out backpack, the Orvis Bug Out Backpack. You can also buy a chest pack, a minimalist chest pack that will attach to the front of that bug out backpack. And you can keep the stuff that you don't need, you know, most of the time during the day when you're fishing in the backpack. And then put your fly boxes that you're gonna use right now, and your leader, and tippet and your fly floating in the chest pack in front.
You can use a bug out backpack by itself as a sling bag as well. It comes around and has a zipper lengthwise, so that you can use it like a sling bag. But that's an expensive option. So it's really, really up to you, I can't really tell you what's gonna be best for you, you have to decide what you wanna carry in a day of fishing.
As far as the reel is concerned on your Euro rod, there are people that will tell you, you have to have, you know, an exact reel, and has to weigh exactly this much, and has to balance the rod. Honestly, I don't think it's necessary, and I think you can get away with the same reel and just buy an extra spool. Same reel that you use for your 5 weight, just get an extra spool and put your Euro nymphing line on there. Later on, you might wanna get a dedicated reel that you feel balances better, but I think you'll be just fine.
On the tactical nymph line, you can cast dry flies short distance with that tactical nymph line. But it's got very little taper to it. And, you know, it will work but yeah, if you see rising fish and you wanna get a little more distance with that 3 weight, you're probably better off getting a standard 3 weight line to put on there. But it will cast to dry fly, and if you're mostly Euro nymphing yeah, you can use that line for the occasional dry fly work.
Here's an email from Tripp in Pennsylvania. Thanks for the terrific guests you have in each of your podcasts, I continue to learn from all of them. I particularly enjoyed your discussion with John McMillan about water temperature. During your discussion, he talked about the possibility that rainbows may have a better chance of survival than browns because they're more likely to migrate to find cooler water. However, he did not opine on brookies. I've fished a good-sized tributary of the Allagash over the past 40 years.
The stream has always fished well in the spring until the first warm spell, then they're gone. Our theory is they leave the stream and head to deeper water in the main river. The thing is, it just happened so fast. Do you think our theory holds water, that they somehow instinctively know to migrate as soon as the temperature hits a certain point?
Tripp, I do think so. I think you're exactly right. And I've noticed this in brook trout. Brook trout don't move around quite as much as rainbows. But they're more likely to move around than brown trout. And it may be because brook trout have such a low-temperature limit, you know, they're you know, 65 degrees and brook trout start to fade, whereas browns and rainbows, you know, 68 to 70. So brook trout like colder water and they're probably constantly looking for it unless the stream is really cold all year long.
And I think a lot of those streams in Maine that fish go into in the spring to chase smelt, and to feed on Mayflies, and then they either drop back to the lakes or go to bigger rivers when the streams warm up. So I think you're exactly right. And you're gonna have to find them and that is sometimes difficult in the summer.
Here's an email from JP. Hi, Tom. I've only recently started listening to the podcast and I can't get enough of it. I really love the series on winter fly fishing which has traditionally been when I do most of my local trout fishing. I also love the way you answered the question from the young gentleman who didn't know how to explain his love for fly fishing to his parents. I'm sure your advice helped him a great deal.
Anyway, I've been fly fishing for 30 years, but I fished much more in salt water than in fresh, mostly because I live on the North Shore of Long Island and have incredible striper fishing minutes from my home. That said, I've had a renewed interest in trout fishing the last few years and I'm trying to improve my skills on that front a lot more.
One question I've had from listening to the podcast is when to use tippet rings. It seems that you mentioned them more in more recent podcasts but you discuss how you build your leaders in a recently relatively recent fly box section indicating you don't use them in every instance. Are there times when you do use tippet rings and sometimes when you don't? Are there times when one shouldn't? While I was initially skeptical, I have come to love them, especially because I'm lazy and love just trying out a new tippet section with an improved clinch knot.
Second question is whether you ever build your trout leader with loop-to-loop connections instead of knots? I've always built all my saltwater leaders with loop connections, usually a butt section loop to a lighter section and [inaudible 00:42:19] both ends that act as a shock absorber. Loop to a terminal tippet end which is probably overkill for any of my local species but became habit from fishing for much stronger species like sailfish and queenfish.
I can't see any reason why I shouldn't do it for trout, especially since I think it makes for a stronger and cleaner connection. But I'm sure there's something I'm not considering that I don't wanna learn the hard way. Thanks for all the invaluable education. You have a fantastic way of demystifying challenging subjects which is the mark of an excellent instructor. Thank you.
On an unrelated note thank you as well for mentioning Casting for Recovery on the podcast in the past. I was the board chair for several years and it is an incredible organization that does amazing things for women impacted by breast cancer, as well as anyone else who gets involved with it. I would encourage all your listeners to check the organization out and to consider volunteering or otherwise supporting if interested.
So JP, I don't actually use tippet rings that much but I talk about them because a lot of people ask about them, and a lot of people use them. And I don't really see a downside in using them. I think they're great for, you know, if you just wanna tie your tippet on with clinch knots and not wanna have to worry about a blood knot or a surgeon's knot, they work great. And you don't have to cut your leader back every time you put a new tippet on.
I'm just comfortable and confident tying my knots because I've done it so long. But I think tippet rings are great, and I honestly just don't use them because I'm so used to tying knots. I don't see any time when you wouldn't wanna use one. I mean, sometimes, you know, with a little tiny dry fly some people use them even with dry flies. I wouldn't use them with a little tiny dry fly. But for all other stuff using a smaller tippet ring should work out great.
And building trout leaders with loop-to-loop connections, I would urge you not to do that. For one thing, I don't agree with you that it's gonna be a cleaner connection. There's nothing cleaner connecting two pieces of monofilament than a blood knot, that's about as clean as you can get.
And, you know, a loop-to-loop connection, you're gonna have more air resistance, you're gonna have more things to tangle. And you're gonna have more knots in your leader if you have loop-to-loop connection, you got two knots for every connection instead of one. I think it's gonna be pretty clunky.
You might wanna try it. And I don't wanna discourage you from experimenting, but I don't think for trout fishing it's gonna work very well. You might use a loop-to-loop connection just for your tippet but not for all the knots and leader. And, you know, if you're gonna do that you might as well use a tippet ring, right?
And here is an email from JJ. Hey Tom, I may have the good fortune of going to Turks and Caicos for four days over Christmas. This trip would mean my in-laws and young children for a full day expense of bonefishing with a guide is probably off the table. My question is, is it even worth bringing my 10 foot 8 weight steelhead rod if I'll be relegated to flats fishing by myself for the first time ever fishing saltwater, let alone bonefishing, it seems intimidating. Is bonefishing really reserved for being guided?
I don't see any Orvis endorsed guides on your website on Turks and Caicos and I don't even know where to begin. If you think it's worth it, any suggestions for my weight forward floating line and fly patterns would be appreciated?
JJ, I would try it. There's no reason you can't catch bonefish on your own. And a lot of people do it even on the first time. Not easy, but you can do it. And you know, if you're gonna have some time, I would definitely take your 10 foot 8 weight. You could even see some small tarpon or something or jacks or something there. So I would definitely take a rod.
And what I would look for...I don't know Turks and Caicos, but I know there's a lot of bonefish there. I would look for flats. I would look for places where there's a fairly large expanse of shallow water. And sometimes just sand flats will hold bonefish. But if there's a mixture of a little bit of turtle grass and some other structure on the bottom, and there are little channels in the flat, that's gonna be even better.
But any shallow-water flat... You can see these flats on Google Earth. If you look at Google Earth, you'll see the flats, they'll be the lighter color. And, you know, just drive to one of those, get out, look at the water, look for tails, look for wakes, look for fish in the water. You may see fish in the water, and just move slowly through that flat. Move very, very slowly and just keep looking and you'll probably see bonefish.
As far as what you need, 8 weight for in floating line is great. 9 to 12-foot leader with 12 or 16-pound tippet, I like fluorocarbon, but you could use nylon. And as far as fly patterns are concerned, I would have some size four or size six shrimp imitations the Gotcha and Rico spawning shrimp. You don't need a lot of patterns for bonefish usually, but those are...the Gotcha is the number one fly in the Bahamas.
But, you know, smaller shrimp patterns, small crab patterns. But you know, a Gotcha, if you don't wanna take a lot of flies in size four and six, will probably work just fine. So good luck, and don't be afraid to explore and experiment.
Paul: Hi Tom, this is Paul Randall in Houston, Texas. And I have been coming back to fly fishing after too many years away from it. My question today is a fly-tying one. I'm still a pretty new fly tier, maybe the last six months or so. And I'm finding it to be a really beautiful creative outlet. And I'm tying way more flies than I can actually fish but it's a lot of fun.
So recently, I was working on some size 18 RS2 flies and I bent one of the hooks in the vise, you know, these are pretty thin dry fly hooks. And I think my whip finish got a little over-aggressive and ended up with a bent fly. And I ended up grabbing some pliers and reshaping it and moving on. But the more I thought about it, I wondered if that hook has been compromised and if that's a fly that you might discard or would you keep that one?
My next question is about UV resin and super glue, head cement, that sort of thing. As I tied up some of this batch of flies, UV resin has seemed to discolor the heads of these flies a little bit. And I think it actually has a nice effect in the end, I don't think it's ruined them. But curious if there are times when you, whatever knot you use heads cement or something to sort of make your fly more durable, are there times when you would not use it? Or do you always use something like that, a product of some sort? Yeah, curious about that. Thanks again, Tom, grateful for all you offer us.
Tom: Well Paul, you know, that's always a judgment call. If the hook was just bent once and you bend it back into shape, it's probably going to be okay. If the hook was bent back and forth a number of times of course, every time it bends, it's gonna fatigue the metal a little bit. So there is a chance of that metal being fatigued.
But, you know, I've bent hooks before when I've hooked my fly in rocks and logs and stuff like that and bent them back and they seem to be fine. Of course, you're gonna do that and then you're gonna break a hook on the fish of a lifetime and blame me, but I think you're safe. I think you're safe to bend that hook back, if it happens again.
Your UV resin shouldn't be discoloring the heads. I wonder if it's coming from maybe your thread, some dye in your thread or some of the materials that you're using. Good UV resin should drive very clear so it shouldn't be discoloring your heads.
But your question about any time I would not use head cement. You know, there are times when I don't when I'm in a hurry. Sometimes I worry, with things like carp, that seem to have a very good sense of smell or even permit I won't put any head cement on the flies. I'll do two whip finishes on top of each other. And then I usually regret it because the head unravels. You know, the head is the weak point on your fly and the thread unravels and then you're left with a fly that's slowly unraveling and ruined.
But I do sometimes not put head cement on. And I know a lot of people who don't use head cement on their flies. So you don't always need it, depends on how long you want your flies to last, I guess. If you tie your own flies, it's not as big of a deal. But, you know, most of the time I will put a drop of head cement on flies. I don't use UV resin much for heads unless it's a big head and I wanna build it up. I prefer standard head cement, I think it soaks in better to materials and holds the materials to the hook better.
All right. That is a long Fly Box this weekend, a lot of questions. Thank you very much for your great questions I really appreciate them. Really appreciate you all trusting me to answer these questions. I hope I helped you, some of you. And now let's go talk to Amelia Jensen about taking pictures of fish in the water. Are you ready to do this thing?
Amelia: You bet. Let's do it.
Tom: Well, my guest today is my buddy, Amelia Jensen. And Amelia, you don't know this but one of the podcasts I did with you, the one on spotting trout and site fishing trout has one of the highest download numbers of any podcasts that I've done. So congratulations, Amelia, you're a rock star.
Amelia: Oh, geez. I don't know about that. That was a long time ago now hey, Tom?
Tom: Yeah, it was a number of years ago. But anyway, it's still up there and people still keep downloading it. So that's cool.
Amelia: Well and good. Hey, people find value, that's a positive thing so that's great.
Tom: But you probably...I am sure you have seen Amelia's work together with her husband, Dave Jensen. They have Jensen Fly Fishing, and they produce some of the very best videos on the internet and social media, and on their own channels, and they're just awesome. And I can't watch them because there's always videos of big fish rising to mayflies and it drives me crazy because I can't be you. I'm so jealous of you guys, sometimes I can't watch it.
Amelia: We can hate you for taunting you with those. Or you can hate us for taunting you with those, yeah.
Tom: Yes. Well, I can't hate you guys, you're too nice. But anyway, we're gonna talk today about trying to photograph fish while they're still in the water. And although you guys are mostly video shooters, I know you guys do a lot of still shots as well. And setting up fish for the picture is quite similar. And before we even start this discussion, I want to let people know that none of us is pure. We have all shown examples of poor fish handling whether it's just on our own, or on video, or on still photographs. Nobody does it perfectly and we're all guilty of showing poor fish handling.
And, you know, I personally, not the best at this. And I'm bound and determined that I'm going to get better at very careful fish handling, especially after this summer with the drought and the high heat. So, you know...
Amelia: Yeah, I think, you know, definitely I wanna say this is definitely an evolution just like anything in life. You know, we are by no means perfect. And I think the thing to keep in mind is that we are dealing with a living thing with kind of a mind of its own. Well, maybe let's say nerves of its own, right, and you know that's the reality. So, you know, you can't be perfect but you can certainly have kind of your ideals and shoot for that in the best treatment of trout, right?
Tom: We're gonna kill fish occasionally, even with the best handling, right it's gonna happen. And we have to minimize that, we have to minimize our impact. So we just have to do the best we can, realizing that sometimes our best isn't good enough.
Amelia: Exactly, yeah. And I think, you know, if you just keep that principle of hey, is always the fish first and our want second then, you know, that kind of stays in the forefront of your mind. And, you know, you go through the course of your day fishing with that in mind.
Tom: And we all want a picture of big fish. We all want a memory of a memorable event. Probably one of the best things that we can all do is to take fewer pictures of fish. I know we were... I was talking recently to John Way, a fly shop owner in Ennis, Montana, and guide and outfitter. And John has a good rule of when water temperatures are warmer, not when they're, you know, above 68, but when they're, you know, in the 60s, he has a rule with his clients that we're gonna take one fish picture today. And I think that's a great rule.
Amelia: Exactly.
Tom: You don't need pictures of...
Amelia: I really do too as well.
Tom: You don't need pictures of every fish you catch.
Amelia: You just don't you know. And I think you're being kinder to them. And I think quite often you know, in a way too you might wanna just think of it that take that photo that really mean something to you, you know. I mean, I don't think, it's hard to say...I mean, when you're a beginner of course starting out you know, every fish, I guess to a degree means something to you, you know, but do you really need the record of it? Or maybe you say to yourself hey, whether it be size, or special color to a fish, or that kind of thing, you know, that's what you sort of stick to, yeah.
Tom: Yeah, we all have a pretty good...
Amelia: Absolutely.
Tom: We all have a pretty good computer in our heads that can remember these things too.
Amelia: Exactly, right. And I think sometimes too, you know, if you're with a fishing partner, of course, everybody is not, but if you are with one, getting that photo of yourself fighting a fish gives you a far more kind of better sense of place than maybe down the road, you know, when you're looking back at that time, you can kind of escape to that place. Because, you know, again, you're seeing the scenery, you're seeing where you were. And there's something really special about that. It doesn't necessarily have to be that fish photo, you know what I'm saying?
Tom: Yeah, good point. You know, sometimes the expression on people's faces the expression of delight when they're playing a fish is so much better than the posed expression when they're, you know, holding it out of the water in front of them.
Amelia: Exactly, right? And you know, I mean, even if you think back to any guided trip you may be have taken with a friend, or with a buddy, or you know, a family member, or something like that, and that photo of you with that person was taken. Yeah, I mean, you remember, like you say, the expressions, maybe you guys were having a laugh over exactly what happened. And yeah, that's what sort of sticks with you quite often right because we're social beings, so having that component I think is really important.
Tom: So, you know, we all know or we should know, at this point, that it's better for fish to keep them in the water, keep them wet, keep the gills underwater. And I have long believed, and I'm not sure the optical and physical properties of this, but I've long believed that I take better fish pictures when they're in the water. I really do. Maybe because they're so reflective and you get a lot of flat light coming off the fish. But if you've got a fish in the water or half in and half out of the water, I really believe that it's a better shot. So let's talk about how to set that up for people.
Amelia: Yeah, absolutely. You know, sometimes again like you're talking about you get those sort of sparkles coming off the water, because like you say you're getting that light refracting off the water and that can make for a really gorgeous photo. And I think...I mean, before I wanna just get into that, I do wanna say I think being prepared is critical with your camera, with your phone, whatever it is that you're using.
Have it on your person, you know, don't have it in your fishing bag where you gotta run to shore and start messing around in your fishing bag to try to get it. Because that's no good, that's sort of waste of time, right? So I think, you know, being prepared is really important.
But absolutely, when it comes to, you know, taking those photos, I think...you know, technically speaking, everybody's camera is pretty different whether you're using a GoPro, or you're using your phone or whatnot. But, you know, having your settings you know, whatever it is that you like to take photo-wise, have your settings prepared in advance.
And if you are with a fishing partner, discuss with them too, hey, would you be willing to take a photo of me with, you know, a great fish that I catch today? And then, you know, you can hand that phone to them, and they can take that photo of you. So those I think are important. Honestly, it's funny because we have moved a lot ourselves, Tom, to video. And the thing is that video the beauty of doing slow-mo, and taking that, you know, higher frame rate video of that fish is that basically, you know, five seconds of regular time actually becomes...sorry, I think it's three seconds of regular time becomes about 15 seconds.
So if you set that...you know, a lot of phones will do this. If you set that to a slow-mo, you get an even longer time to show your friends that fish. And you can do that very easily underwater. I mean, when I land a fish, I mean, I can kind of walk you through exactly sort of what I do when I land a fish and how I go about it, if you'd like me to.
Tom: Yeah, let's do that. Absolutely, yeah.
Amelia: Okay, let's do that. So first of all, one thing I like to do is just make sure that when I'm landing that fish, I kinda wanna be in water that's flowing, right, that's at least kind of ankle to maybe mid-calf deep and it's flowing. You know, that really slack edge water, when we have these high temperatures, it won't have as good dissolved oxygen in it and so you kinda wanna avoid that. And it's also good for when it comes to actually releasing a fish, right.
But what I like to do...and I realize that not everybody can do this based on flexibility and whatnot. But where you can, you put that extra effort in, I like to actually kneel down. And I like to be able to put my rod to the side, the rod can go in slack water, or maybe you are close enough to the bank that you can put it on the bank so that you have your sole focus and attention on that fish that's in the net.
And I think a really important point before I even talk about holding the fish with the camera too is actually having the right net. I think a net with a decent width and a decent depth to the basket is really important to hold trout, based on sort of your anticipated size of the trout that are in the stream that you're fishing. And the reason why that's important is once you net that fish, you kind of want that fish to be able to swim around freely in the net.
And, you know, you don't want it to be too small where there's a chance that you know, again, that fish gets bent and, you know, you might risk breaking its back or something like that. You also want that net to be kind of a rubberized tight mesh so there's little chance of it, you know, rubbing against the skin, or maybe having, like a pec fin or even, you know, a part of their nose or whatnot being trapped in the actual mesh.
I think it's important, you know, to just make sure that that's done. And then when you land it, and I think this is so important maybe, especially for beginners, too, is you want to keep that fish in the water. So there's a tendency with nets to wanna lift them out of the water in your excitement, that kind of thing. And especially, if you're in deeper water too. So keep in mind you wanna keep it in the water submerged the whole time within the net. So, you know, those are a couple things.
And then just like not too big, not too small, you know, we've got a few nets that, you know, if it's too small, it can kind of be almost like a trampoline to the fish where the fish will bounce out of it, you know what I'm talking about?
Tom: Yeah.
Amelia: And so, yeah, so you kinda wanna make sure that, you know, it's just sort of the right size for that potential of, say, a larger fish that you do wanna take that photo of fish for. And then from there, so, you know, once I've brought it and I've netted it, and I'm kneeling down I like to tuck that net handle between my legs. I know Dave will often just tuck it kind of behind his knee. But again, that's a way where you're not trying to hold the net and the fish at the same time. You know, you can't do it all.
Tom: No, yeah, you're right.
Amelia: Right? As everybody's realized, you cannot do it all. So ,you know, if you have a friend obviously, they can help you and then, you know. But if you're on your own, once that fish is in the net I think what you can do honestly, and what I do, is just take my hand in the water underneath that mesh and underneath the fish, and you can turn that fish. You can take it by basically...just behind the pec fin there's a muscle there where I like to kind of take my fingerprint, the pad of one of my fingers, and just kind of hold it behind that pec fin and turn it on its side.
So, you know, you're still underwater completely or in some cases, if you can't be under the water completely you're at least getting water covering that one gill plate, as you kind of turn it on its side. I hope I'm making sense.
Tom: Do you wanna...let's explain to people what a pec fin is just in case people don't know what a pec fin is.
Amelia: Yeah, absolutely.
Tom: So go ahead.
Amelia: So basically...yeah, so that pec fin right is...you know, a fish has got those two fins that basically come right behind the gill plate and will flare out, those are the pec fins, right? It's not the dorsal on the top of the back, you know, it's not the anal fins which are towards the back of the fish. It's the pec fins, they're at the front, the head of the fish. You maybe have a better way of describing that stuff.
Tom: No, that's it. I just wanted to give people a little idea of the geography here or the anatomy.
Amelia: Absolutely.
Tom: Yeah. Sorry, continue, Amelia.
Amelia: Yeah, so, you know, I think from there, you know, literally like I say you keep it on its side and then you can take that photo. You know, you've got your phone, you've got your camera in the one hand, and you've got the fish in the other hand, and you take that photo, and away you go.
And I think the other thing that we do is...and it's important to say this, is you wanna keep your handling time and, you know, your posing time, I guess, if you will, with that fish to kind of five seconds or less because you're gonna really lessen the stress on the fish.
I know certainly, between Dave and I, of course, we're fishing together. And again, I realize not everybody can but even when you're on your own, if you speak out those five seconds, you'll actually realize how long it is. You know, it's a fair bit of time and it's something that has kind of worked well between us. Because, you know, you just recognize okay, this is the amount of time I have and that's it, you know, where any of that fish is even remotely exposed to the air. And obviously, ultimately, you don't even need to do that, it can stay underwater the whole time.
Tom: Okay. Do you keep the hook in the fish or do you take it out before you take a picture? Do you ever...?
Amelia: You know, to be honest, I think we've kept it in... You can do both. I mean, I think there's two schools of thought. You can get that fly out right away, especially if you're keeping that fish completely in, you know, submerged in the water. And something I think to keep in mind is you don't have to, especially if you're in clear water, you don't have to bring that head out at all, to remove that fly. You can get your hand in there, feel around, make sure you got it, you know, go in the right direction, and pop that fly out. We keep it in until we're ready to release that fish, you know, but I think that's a personal preference. I don't know what's your thoughts to that.
Tom: Oh, I like the fly in the fish just because I like it, you know, just for memory. And sometimes I go back say, what did I catch that fish on? Enlarge the...
Amelia: Exactly, yes.
Tom: ...photograph to see what... But yeah, I like to show the fly.
Amelia: Absolutely.
Tom: I like to show the fly. But sometimes, you know, barbless hooks, a lot of times the fly will pop out in the net and you don't wanna re-hook a fish.
Amelia: Oh, heck no, no, no, no.
Tom: So then you take the picture as it comes.
Amelia: Yeah, no, we're not into doing that, that's for sure. Yeah, no, I think that's important too, to just, you know, do what you think is best. But as you say, it is really nice to be able to look back and say, hey, yeah, I caught that one on, you know, a special tie that, you know, might have been a fly that you just tied and that's a really cool thing because that's part of the memory, for sure. Yeah, you bet.
So yeah, and I think, you know, obviously, having that fish...keeping in mind that you want to be facing upstream. When you go to release that fish, you wanna have it facing upstream. You're giving that fish the best chance possible because as, you know, again, the reminder to total beginners, that's a way of fish breathes, it needs to have its water flow going over those gill plates as much as possible. So, you know, you're intending to do that so make sure you're sort of situated upstream facing upstream.
Tom: Yeah, let's talk more about taking pictures with phones because honestly, that's the way most people are gonna be doing it. Most people are not gonna have the kind of camera gear that you and Dave carry around. I know that, personally, I sometimes take phone pictures, not often because I usually carry a bigger camera. But I sometimes take phone pictures.
And one of the things I do is that while I'm fighting the fish, I'm reaching in for my phone and unlocking it and turning it on so that when I get the fish at my feet, it's on, it's unlocked. Hopefully, it stays unlocked. And you know, hopefully, I should have put it on the right setting. In other words, you know, either photo or video or slow-mo video or whatever. So, you know, what else, as far as vertical or horizontal, as far as the angle of the phone or the camera, what kind of advice do you have for people?
Amelia: You know, I think...
Tom: Because it's harder to take a picture of a fish when it's in the water. So, you know, we all need as much guidance as we can get for taking those kind of pictures, right?
Amelia: Well yeah, you know, I think again, like I say what I like to do is when we're holding that fish, like I talk about, with our hands where we've got, you know, a finger that's pressed in behind, in that muscle and behind the pec fin, and we've turned it on our side. I like to try to kind of tuck...there's a way, when you hold it and you have two fingers actually one on either side of each pec fin, you can kind of tuck your thumb. So you know, your thumb isn't a big part of it, you can kind of tuck it in behind the top of the fish.
And I think taking a vertical photo, you know, a lot of what we share of course, you know, Instagram and things like that, I think using your phone in a vertical position is typically what you wanna do. And it's also gonna extol maybe the best parts of that fish. Like I know the other day, I did take a shot with our phone, even though we don't do a lot of that, of this beautiful brown that really showed off its red spots, and that was gorgeous, right.
So, you know, you're getting the full length of the fish so you can see and appreciate all of it. You know, at the end of the day, I mean, yeah, sometimes maybe it is just a cheek that you want, you know, a really colorful gill plate that you wanna take. And then you can just get in a bit tighter and a bit closer and take those shots.
I think starting to mess around horizontally... Because I know with our phone, of course, you can simply...it's much quicker to hit power button you know, a couple shots to take a photo, right, to go from where you're at to just being able to take a photo instantly. And you do that by holding...to me, it's most comfortable just to hold the phone in a vertical position. But I think it's all very dependent on, you know, how adaptable you are with the tool that you're using. And maybe the biggest thing to say is practice at home, don't be practicing on the fish, you know.
Tom: Yeah, that's a good idea. And, you know, a lot of people recommend, and I think this is good idea, using the burst mode on your phone because the fish is moving, and it's moving fairly quickly, flopping around. And by holding that button down and taking a whole bunch of pictures, you're bound to get decent ones. Like taking pictures of kids, you know, they're always...
Amelia: Yeah, you're bound to get something. And that's also to be honest, why we like...and I know that not everybody takes video, but it is amazing Tom, how many, you know, cameras... I mean, there's a lot more people with GoPros and whatnot. And even their phones, where that little motion function, you know, if you're reducing it to that 120 frames per second again, you know, your 3 seconds of real-time becomes 15. I mean, that's five times the amount, and you get to enjoy. And you're doing that all underwater.
And that's not that difficult, you know, you hold that fish in one hand, and you dunk your camera down and simply hit...you know, hit play and dunk it down into the water, and away you go. Now, it might not work out angle-wise the first time you do it, you know, but you're gonna try again the next go-round, okay.
Tom: Yeah. And I think a good idea, if you're gonna take underwater pictures is to practice framing and focusing beforehand like in the sink or, you know, in a backwater in a stream using your hand as the fish. And so just get an idea of where you need to hold that phone in relation to the fish.
Amelia: Exactly. Like you don't wanna be right beside the fish, that's typically not...you know, I know for us, for the most part, I think we've always been at least about a foot and a half away, maybe even 2 feet, and then you know, you're gonna get the full... And you can't anticipate if that fish is...you know, which direction it's gonna go. And sometimes you get some really cool stuff where it comes right at the camera, you know, and that's some interesting angles, right?
The other thing I wanted to touch on was, you know, again, we talked about these are living things, they're gonna move around a lot on you. And especially when it comes to cutthroat trout. Cutthroats, they flip and flop a lot. And one way, and it's one of the first things I learned as a beginner is you wanna disorient that fish. So turn it upside down in the net, in the water, disorient it because it's gonna calm it down quite a lot.
And that's gonna help you before you take that picture because they're gonna...and especially the smaller ones, of course, too. And hopefully, you know, you're holding off and just taking a photo of the larger fish. But they're not easy to hold, cutthroats, right, they don't have a decent size tail the way browns and rainbows do.
And if you're on your own, of course, you're not holding the tail, but if you are with a friend or a buddy, that's something again that you can do. You can keep the fish under the water, you can cradle it with your one hand and hold the tail with your other, and then have that person, you know, take either a photo or a video of your fish.
Tom: Yeah, having a friend and having them set up and ready and, you know, show them your phone beforehand. Make sure they know what button to press and how to open it up and everything. Or, you know, if it's a real camera then showing them how to operate it beforehand, or a guide.
Amelia: Yeah, exactly.
Tom: Make sure that... Most guides know how to operate phones and cameras because they do it all day long for people but, you know, just to make sure.
Amelia: Yeah, and that's [inaudible 01:20:06] exactly right. And I think, you know, if you are from a boat, to be honest, we don't...I don't know how much do you wanna talk about taking photos from a boat...
Tom: I do want to talk about that because a lot of people are gonna be fishing with guides or fishing in their own boat and it's a lot more difficult if you don't....you know, if you can't get to the shallows to kneel down.
Amelia: That's right, exactly. And I think honestly, again that is where I would you know...and maybe even gonna sound a bit like a broken record, on this whole, you know, trying to take a bit of video with your slow-motion function on your phone or whatnot. But I think that's where that really shines because again, you know, you're in a boat, it's not necessarily easy. But I think the biggest thing is that communication with the rower, you know, having them drop anchor, or in some cases, maybe they do need to row to shore.
But that way, they can have the sole focus of holding the net and holding the fish in the net, you know, while you choose to do what you're gonna do for a photo or a video. You know, it's not easy, to be honest with you, we actually tell them take pictures from a boat, because it is difficult. I think...
Tom: It is.
Amelia: ...you know, it can be really cumbersome. And I think that's where, if you're on a guided trip you maybe say to yourself you know, I'm gonna just look to getting that one fish photo out of this trip, and that way, you know, you can be fair to the fish.
Tom: Yeah, it's tough. And sometimes you can't drop anchor, you know, sometimes it's dangerous to drop anchor, and you got this big fish alongside the boat and the boat's moving, and the guide has to concentrate on avoiding rocks. And, you know, in that situation, you might wanna think about not worrying about a picture.
Amelia: That's right. And again, you know, that's where, you know, quite often it's not the case all the time obviously, but quite often, there's two people in the boat that are anglers. And, you know, again, that's where you know, you get your friend, you give your friend that phone or you ask them to take a shot of you on their phone while you're fighting the fish, right, because you know... Like you say, if you're in a precarious spot in the river where lots of fast-flowing water and rocks and the whole works, it's just not gonna happen.
You know, and I think sometimes, again, you don't wanna force things. It's when you force things that things just, they don't go well, you know? So I think those are really the best things you can say about actually, you know, taking photos from a boat. Keep it really to a minimum when it comes to boat shots because it's not easy. The truth is, any boat... Obviously, the deeper the gunnels, the harder it is to lean over and actually get...
Tom: To get a picture.
Amelia: ...yourself at water level.
Tom: Yeah, get a picture of fish in the water. Sometimes it's dangerous. And yeah, they just...and they never seem to turn out nearly as good as... You know, if you can quickly get the boat into the shallows and jump out of the boat, you're gonna have a much better photograph of that fish.
Amelia: Absolutely, yeah. That's how I see it, no question. Yeah, you bet.
Tom: And often, you know, taking a fish out of the water and holding it above the boat, that gets tricky because...
Amelia: It does.
Tom: ...the fish can wiggle out of your hands. And I know... I was talking to Joe Demalderis, great guide from the Delaware River in New York state the other day, and he says if somebody really wants to hold a fish out of the water, and he really wants a grip and grin, the guide is always holding a net under the fish. But again, that's....you know, those pictures are so boring and so cliché.
Amelia: I know. They really are. And that's the thing, you know, like you say if you get creative, you know, you choose the creativity in your mind's eye when you take those shots of that fish just under the water, you know, because there is some really neat things that can happen. Sometimes you know, their head can look a little bit bigger, you know, there's some exaggerations which is that beauty of the creativity in the shot, right? Or there's wave action, you know, that wave action...
Again, like you say, if you're on a burst mode where you're taking multiple shots too, you know, you can get some really neat things happening when that fish is underwater. And obviously, that mostly applies to clean clear water, yeah. There's a lot you can do but I think, you know, obviously, just really keeping that principle in mind that, you know, fish first and our wants second.
Because that way, you have that chance to maybe go back and catch that fish again, at some point in your life. Or, you know, you're giving that next person that opportunity to do the same because you know you've come away from that experience you've had on the water. You know, doing your best to keep the fish handling to a minimum so that the stress on the fish is lessened.
Tom: And, you know, we... I mean when you look at the big picture it's always about the habitat and water and, you know, having a healthy environment for the fish, and that's the most important. But these things that we do when handling fish may not be...they're nowhere near as important as habitat. But it's the only thing we have totally in our control, right? It's the only thing that we can control and influence the outcome as anglers.
Amelia: That's right, yeah. And, you know, the things that you can minimize, you know, when you are in the water too again is just, you know, there's no chance of that fish flapping out of your hand and whacking itself on a rock. You know, you're eliminating that completely because you're staying in the water, you know.
So you're absolutely right, you know, control what you can control, there's lots in this life that we can't, we all know that. But do your best to control those things. And again, as you said, we're not perfect, you know, things happen and all you can do is your best, and that's really all you can do.
Tom: And part of fly fishing is learning and we're all always learning and we're learning to handle fish better as we go. So, all we can do is...
Amelia: Absolutely.
Tom: ...is try to get better.
Amelia: That's right, exactly. No, there's no question that this is an evolution. You know, we've all, through the course, those who have been fly fishing a while have had the grip and grin shots. And I think they're just becoming...yeah, you know, slowly over time there is becoming less of that because people are seeing beauty in more creative stuff as well and, you know.
And that's a neat thing too, I wanted to mention is, you know, you can take a shot looking down like I'll do that of someone with the camera where you get a piece of them, and you get that fish in the water. And that's the beauty of that as well. You know, someone's kneeling down and holding that fish, is that as the other person you can still capture them with that fish.
Tom: Yeah, you don't always need your whole face in the picture, you know it's you, right, you know it's you, you know it's your fish...
Amelia: Exactly.
Tom: ...and, you know, even just your hands. You know it's your fish.
Amelia: Yeah, there's still evidence, you know, you're not gonna have your buddies laugh at you going, yeah, that's bullshit you didn't catch that. Yeah, exactly.
Tom: All right, Amelia. Well, any other last words of advice for taking pictures of fish in a better manner?
Amelia: I don't think so, you know. I think bottom line is just, again, you know, be prepared, do your practicing off the river or just ,you know maybe use a rock or something as your target as to how it turns out, right. And maybe try it on the river but just not with a fish, you know. I think that kind of stuff is just really important.
I think the handling surrounding the actual photo is as important really as the photo itself. But again, just, you know, keep it to a minimum and really enjoy your time, and enjoy how you went about that fish, you know. Think about enjoying that one as much as the actual specimen itself, you know.
Tom: You know, that all makes sense to me. We all practice casting and tying flies and tying knots, and things like that, we should all practice taking pictures prior to actually getting out there and handling a fish. So that's a great point.
Amelia: You bet.
Tom: Maybe Orvis should sell a rubber trout for practice photography, huh?
Amelia: Yeah, no kidding. Maybe not like, you know, what is it? Billy the Bass or whatever. Yeah, I guess it could be a talking one that could make us all laugh too, yeah, maybe incorporate that.
Tom: Yeah. Or maybe we could develop one with artificial intelligence that can tell you how to hold the camera.
Amelia: Yeah, that's right, it'll be yelling out things.
Tom: Yeah, "We're going off the rails here."
Amelia: To keep us in line, yeah. Too fun. Yeah, that would be too fun.
Tom: All right, Amelia. Well, I know that I learned some things today listening to you about how I'm gonna take some better fish pictures in the water, and I'm sure other people did. So really appreciate you sharing your vast knowledge with us today.
Amelia: Well, hopefully there is something there of value, you know. Yeah, you know, again, comes down to everyone's got something different when it comes to their tool and what they use. I think phones are pretty common but there's so much that technology can do now and it's not hard to learn it. And I think you just learn your own tool and away you go, so yeah.
Tom: And probably learning how to pull a still shot from those slow-motion videos. I know that's easy on a phone without even having to go to a computer so that's...
Amelia: Yes, exactly.
Tom: ...if you need to still shot, shoot to slow-mo and then pull your still shot from there.
Amelia: Yeah, you can take a screen capture from the video stuff too and that's not hard to learn as well. Right on. Well, really great to chat with you Tom, enjoyed it as always.
Tom: As always, good talking to you, Amelia. And I hope to see you in person someday soon. It's been a long time.
Amelia: Yeah, no kidding. It's been a long time for sure, you bet. I know yeah, this whole COVID thing has certainly had its impact but hopefully, we're coming to a close of its massive, yeah, impact on all of us.
Tom: I hope so.
Amelia: Hopefully, we can soon. And I hope you have a great trip down in Idaho then.
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at