Steve Ramirez author of Casting Forward
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to "The Orvis Fly-Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And my guest this week, a little bit later in the podcast, is author, Steve Ramirez. Steve is the author of a new book, "Casting Forward: Fishing Tales from the Texas Hill Country." But we're gonna be talking about the value of native species in our fly-fishing obsessions and we're gonna get a little bit more philosophical. Before, we've talked on the podcast about native species in a little bit more of a scientific manner, and we're gonna take it...we're gonna get a little touchy-feely and talk more about the philosophical values of fishing for native species in their native habitat.
But first, we're gonna do the Fly-Box. I'm gonna try to answer some questions. If you have a question for the Fly-Box, you can get hold of me at
"I fish a lot of down trees and catch lots of decent smallmouths, so my 5 weight isn't cutting it anymore. Most of my fishing is with poppers and dries, like the Chubby Chernobyl. Thank you for your time and keep up the great work." So, Keith, a couple of things here. First of all, I don't see any problem with putting a lighter weight on that rod. That's certainly...you know, you don't need a lot of backing for smallmouth bass. It's rare that smallmouth bass pulls much line, so you can get away with putting a 7 or even an 8 weight on that 5'6" reel. You may have to experiment with how much backing you get on the there but if you have 25 yards of backing on that reel, you're gonna be just fine for fishing for smallmouth.
The one thing that I would not do, given your arthritis and just in general, is put a 7 weight floating line on that 8 weight rod. Seven weight line on an 8 weight rod is gonna underline the rod and it's gonna actually make it harder to cast because the rod isn't gonna bend the way it was intended. It's not gonna bend enough and you're gonna have to work harder to push that 7 weight line with an 8 weight rod, which is gonna probably not help with your arthritis. So, you're not gonna save much weight by putting a 7 weight line on an 8 weight rod. That's gonna be, you know, a minuscule change in weight. So, I think it's fine to put a 5'6" reel on an 8 weight rod, but I wouldn't go with a 7 weight line. I'd stick with the 8 weight line. It's gonna be much easier for you.
Austin: Hey Tom, my name is Austin. I live in Salt Lake City, Utah, and I'm new to fly fishing. I've been doing it for a few months and I've had tons of fun fishing in some of these great rivers out here in the west, and I also spend way too much time listening to this podcast, but it has sure helped me a lot. I've learned a ton and I continue to look forward to learning more. So, as I listen to a few podcasts, I feel like I often hear people talk about how fly-fishing or fishing in general, just isn't like it used to be, and that things are changing or you have to be more sensitive to certain seasons and certain areas for fishing and conservation and things like that. I just want to hear your perspective on something you're looking forward to in fly-fishing, maybe something that you think is gonna be coming up, or new to the sport, or something that's just kind of positive about the future of it and not just that it's all...not just the good old days of fly-fishing. So I just wanna make sure that the sport that I'm getting into and I'm really enjoying is something that I'm gonna be able to do for my whole life and maybe even my kids' whole life and things like that. So, I'd love to hear your perspective and, again, thanks for the podcast and all you do.
Tom: So, Austin, first of all, you can look at the fly-fishing world in a positive or a negative way. It's always depressing to think about some of the things that are happening on our rivers and to our environment, but there are also a lot of positive things. And, you know, if you go back in generations, you can go back as far as you want, and the generation was always saying, "Oh, fishing used to be better 20 years ago or 30 years ago." And maybe we're experiencing some diminishing expectations with our fishing, but there are places where fishing is better than it used to be. You know, with habitat work that's been done on streams to encourage more spawning by wild trout with the manipulation of water regimes on tailwater rivers to benefit trout and to keep more cold water in the stream.
So, there are places where fishing is better than it used to be and there are places where fishing is not as good as it used to be. You know, the whole overcrowding situation is really, in my experience, my observation, is really restricted to the more popular streams, particularly the ones where you have a lot of drift boats. There are...we have a vast, vast resource and incredible wealth of public land in this country and there are lots of uncrowded rivers and, you know, basically, it's really just happening on our more popular trout streams. If you are gonna be chasing bass or carp or pike or something else, you're not gonna see the same kind of crowds. And if you're willing to walk and you're willing to fish some lesser-known streams, ones that are a little bit further away from the road, you're not gonna find any crowding. There are lots of places to get away from it.
So I'm optimistic about the future of fly-fishing. We still have plenty of great uncrowded trout streams in this country, they're just lesser-known, and we have lots of other different kinds of fish to pursue. So, you know, in the past, people just associated fly-fishing with trout fishing, and that's not the case anymore, which is gonna spread out the pressure. And I think we're gonna have lots of fine fly-fishing in our future.
Here's an email from Josh. "I've been fishing tailwaters in Tennessee for trout and have been playing around with streamers lately, hoping to get into larger fish more often. Recently, I spent a day on the water fishing streamers using an interchangeable loop to loop sink tip on the end of my floating line on my 7 weight streamer rod. I think the sync tips are an Orvis product I bought a long time ago and have rarely used. I fish across the river and let my streamer swing downstream, waiting downstream a little at a time. I got strikes all day in the swing and at the end of the swing, but could not hook up with the fish. I know about the strip-strike hook set method, and I admit that I need more practice with that, but I can't help thinking there is something I'm missing given the amount of strikes I had and lack of hookups. I've never had such problems hooking fish while fishing streamers on a floating line, though I've never had as many strikes as with the sink tip. So I really wanna keep after it with a sink tip. One other note, I used a short, heavy leader on the end of the sink tip, about four to five feet of 2X. Do you have any advice or instructions for increasing my hookups using a sink tip?"
Well, Josh, yeah, there's a number of things I can think of here. First of all, you're fishing in the fall, and in the fall, fish slow down their feeding. They do not increase their feeding. They don't try to get fat for the winter, they slow down. Water temperatures are getting lower, the fish don't need to feed as much, and also, brown trout and brook trout are preparing to spawn. And although they're getting aggressive, they're not eating stuff as much. So, what happens sometimes in the fall and in other times of the year as well, is that fish are not trying to eat your streamer. They're just trying to push it out of their territory and they may body block it, they may just bump it with their nose, they may try to push it out of the way and not inhale that streamer like they're trying to eat it.
So, that's gonna happen and there isn't much you can do about it other than to maybe try changing your streamer size or your streamer style, you know. If you're fishing a white zonker, something kind of slim and wiggly, maybe change over to a darker scalping pattern or a smaller streamer. The fish...sometimes the fly is just too big and the fish will make a pass at it, but decide that it's too big to eat. So, sometimes just going and do a smaller fly or a different pattern will help. The other thing is when you're fishing downstream and swinging a streamer you don't really want to set the hook. And you say you're strip striking but, you know, strip striking is great when you're stripping a streamer across the stream and you're moving it quickly.
But when you're on a downstream swing, what you wanna do is just let the fish take it. And usually, the hook will pull into the corner of their mouth just by virtue of the drag on the line. And once you feel the weight of the fish on the line, then you can raise the rod and set the hook. But don't be too quick to set the hook. Let the fish take that fly. And, you know, if they're not gonna take it, if they're just bumping it, they're not gonna take it and there's nothing you can do. But if they are taking it, then sometimes not striking and just letting it slide into their mouth is gonna be a better way of doing it than trying to quickly strip strike because you might pull it out of their mouth, especially if they're downstream. So, I would try not setting the hook, and don't worry too much about those missed strikes, it's gonna happen this time of year a lot, and just keep moving on and changing flies and you'll hook up.
Here's an email from Jason from Pennsylvania. "Thanks for the podcast and all you do. I've learned so much from it and continue to listen weekly. Sorry if this is a little long. I'm not sure if this would be relevant enough to read on the show, but I thought I would send a word of advice for fellow fly-fishers who can learn from my mistake. I've been fly-fishing for about four years now and have recently started getting interested in Euro nymphing, tight line style. In doing so, I was looking for a new rod and reel combo to match my new interest. After checking Orvis and other sites, I was having a difficult time finding one that I could reasonably afford. While searching, I found a combo on a fly fishing community forum that I had been reading stream reports and general fly-fishing advice for a long time."
"The site also has a swap forum in which you can buy or sell used fly-fishing gear. I finally found one that a seller was offering that I could afford. I reached out and over the course of several days, communicated with the seller who had a local number. We talked about good local fishing areas, different style rods and reels, fly time materials, etc. I was confident that this was a legitimate seller who was just trying to downsize some of his gear for the winter, which most of us fly-fishers have a lot of. After sending payment, he went quiet after promising shipment. I requested a refund and heard nothing. I contacted the money transfer site and was told there was nothing that could be done. So, now I'm without rod, reel, and cash."
"I write this not for sympathy, but mostly as a warning to other fly-fishers. This scammer clearly knew the right fly-fishing talk, gear, and spots. I'm not sure if he was an angler or just a scam artist who had really done his homework on the sport I love, but it was a very crafty scheme. With fly fishing's rise in popularity, I'm just assuming that this is why this site was targeted. Hopefully, other listeners can learn from my mistake. Always protect yourself and buy your gear through a trusted site. I know when I get the cash saved back up for it, I'll be buying it direct through the retailer."
Well, Jason, I'm really sorry that that happened to you. There's just no excuse for dishonest people, but the other point that I might make is that you know, if you wanted a Euro nymphing rod, there's an Orvis Clearwater...two Orvis Clearwater rods that are designed for Euro nymphing, a 10-foot, 2 weight, and 10-foot, 3 weight, and they're really good rods. I use the two-weight myself and they're $229 bucks, which is roughly maybe four tanks of gas or a third of the price of a smartphone. So, you know, if you really...if you want a decent rod, you've been doing it for four years, you're probably pretty serious about this. You should expect to pay $200 bucks for a decent rod. And you know, I don't think that's outta line for most of us who are serious about fly-fishing. So, I'm sorry that you had this experience, but I think you learned your lesson. And the other thing is, you know, maybe buying your outfit instead of through the mail or on a website, go into a shop and try it out. That's always the best thing to do when buying a new fly rod.
Dave: Hey Tom. My name's Dave calling from the province of New Brunswick, on the east coast of Canada. And my question today is specific to fly rod selection for brook trout fishing. Probably similar to the environment that you're in, in the New England states in the US fish a lot of small creeks and streams where the native brook trout population, you know, we catch anything from 6-inch to 12-inch, and anything over 12 inches is probably considered a fish of a lifetime here. My question is, I currently use a 4 weight, 8.5-foot fly rod, and contemplating next season, moving down to either 2 weight or 3 weight.
My question specifically is, and of course, you know, fly-fishing and enjoyment, what you get out of it is very subjective to the individual, but I wanted to ask, what benefits or distractions would there be, if any, moving down from that weight? Will it be a more enjoyable experience landing some of those smaller fish versus the heavier weight rod? Again, I realized it's very subjective, but I wanted to know what your thoughts were and maybe even share what your typical setup and your environment is for some of those smaller brooks when you're fishing the brook trout.
Tom: Well, Dave, you know, an 8.5 foot, 4 weight is really, you know, a great small stream brook trout rod. And I don't think it's too long at all, I think that it hell helps you hold line off the water. But there's sometimes that you want a shorter rod and a lighter rod because the fish aren't very big and you want the fish that you hook to at least bend the rod. So I think going to a 2 or a 3 weight is a fun way to do it. One of the advantages of a 2 or a 3 weight rod is often, you know, you're making short cast and you're just fishing the leader and very little if no fly line outside of the guides. And with a 2 or 3 weight, you know, you can cast a leader a lot easier than you can with a 4 weight.
So, that's the benefit of going to those lighter rods, and just the fun of playing a small fish on a light rod. The only disadvantage to going with a 2 or a 3 weight is, you know, sometimes if you're making a little bit longer cast, say 15, 20, 25-feet, which you sometimes do in small streams, you may have trouble pushing...you know, usually, I don't know...if you're like me, you fish fairly large dry flies and often a dry dropper for those brookies on small streams. And it's sometimes a little bit hard to push a big, you know, size 10 Chubby Chernobyl with a Hare's Ear nymph hanging on it. Sometimes it's a little bit harder to push that with a 2 weight line. There just isn't enough mass to really turn that over. So you may have to struggle a little bit with the longer cast, but I think you're gonna have fun using a 2 or a 3 weight and I'm sure you'll be able to adjust to throwing those bigger flies.
Here's an email from Miles from Newburyport, Massachusetts. "Hello, I've got two questions that came to me while listening to your podcast on the Seven Seasons Of Stripe Bass. First, when fly-fishing at night, do you wear any sort of eye protection? During the day, I wear sunglasses, but for nighttime, those obviously won't work. My second question has to do with numbers of fish caught. On several different episodes. I've heard you or your guests touch on the concept of quitting fishing after you've gotten well into double digits of catching fish for conservation reasons, I don't need all 10 of my fingers to count the number of times in my lifetime, 42 years old, I've gotten into double digits of catching fish on a single outing. Most of those days came when using earthworms and a spinning rod while targeting panfish or from a deep-sea party boat. On my best day ever with a fly rod, I got something like 8 to 10 stripe bass down at Cape Cod. When fly-fishing for trout, the best I've ever done is five on a local stock lake."
"I'm a competent angler, so what gives? If I am super lucky and don't mind being in the doghouse with my wife, I'm able to go fishing by any method, maybe two dozen times in a year. Is this a numbers game? Do I need to fish a lot more frequently to have a 20-fish day? Or do I need to be much more careful about picking the weather, moon phase, or tide when I go? I typically fish when I can, rather than at optimal times because of work or family commitments. I love fishing and usually enjoy it, no matter what the outcome is, but I'd love to be part of the conversation about, what's the point of catching this many fish, or do I really need to do a grip and grin for every fish I catch?"
Okay. So Miles, first of all, let's talk about this numbers game. I've been doing this for 50 years and, you know, and I fish a lot. And if you do it enough, you're gonna have those days where there's a potential to catch, you know, 20 or 30 or 40 for fish, but this is typically on a small stream or you're covering a lot of water or maybe you're fishing for striped bass and you're into a whole bunch of schoolies and they're really aggressive. But those times when people catch that many fish are rare and I wouldn't worry about it, you know? If you're catching five fish, that's a great day. If you're catching three or four stripers, I consider that a great day. And, you know, these numbers are just rare occurrences when somebody who has pretty good experience in fly-fishing just happens to be on the water when conditions are just perfect.
So, you know, people that really wanna rack up the numbers, yeah. If you could pick your day, you would pick just the very best fishing days and you would go with a great guide and you would fish from dawn to dusk, and maybe you could catch 20 or 30 fish. But that's not the point and I think you understand that. So, I wouldn't worry about it. So long as you're having fun, that's the point. On a little bit more serious topic of the use of eyeglasses when fishing at night, I wear prescription glasses. I don't have to worry about protecting my eyes at night, but if I didn't wear prescription glasses, or if I were wearing contact lenses, I would use a pair of clear safety glasses at night. You know, you can buy pretty good optically...pretty good optics in safety glasses if you shop around a bit.
And I would. I would get some safety glasses because you don't know where that fly is, you can't see where it is. And it can be just as windy at night and it can be just as dangerous. So, I would always, when night fishing, wear some of the clear glasses so that you protect your eyes. Here's an email from John, from Virginia. I'm listening to one of your wonderful podcasts and I always think of a question but procrastinate writing to you. So today, I put you on pause for a moment, also procrastinating cleaning the basement. Years ago, you said you throw out your mono every year and start with fresh as it degrades. This makes sense for tipper material, but what about the heavier leader material? I purchased 20 to 50-pound mono to make saltwater leaders this year. And I'm wondering if some of the heavier spools can be kept for longer. If so, make a guess at how long each size could reasonably be kept, like 50-pound tests for three years, tops, unless big tarpon fishing. What about a heavier 0X or 1X tippet, still just one year?
Also, what if you have some older tapered leader still sealed in the original package? Again, maybe a 0X may be good for two seasons? Would it make a difference if the package is paper or sealed plastic? Is the three-year-old, 3X tapered leader in original sealed plastic just trash at this point? Thanks for the many hours of entertainment and information. Yeah. So, you know, John, when I say that I throw away all my old mono every year, or maybe every two years, I think I'm getting a little sloppy about it these days, it's mainly my 7X down to about 4X. You know, I'll use older spools of 2X and 3X because you might lose a little bit with age, but you know, those with those heavier spools, it's not as critical.
And with your...you know, with your 30, 40 pounds, you know, I think you can probably keep 'em for years, particularly if you're not, you know, if you've got a, you're just building the butt section with those and you got a lighter tippet on the end. You know, the strength of the butt section is not that important because your tippet knot is always gonna...either your tippet knot or your tippet or fly not is always gonna be your weakest link. So, I think with those heavier sizes, you can certainly go for multiple years. And I don't know how many years. You know, it's hard to test the strength of a 30 or 40-pound test, but if you have something like 3X, I would just test it in my hand. I'd wrap it around my hand and, you know, give it a couple good, hard snaps or pulls and see if you can break it. If you can't break it, then it's probably good. And that's really all you need to do.
As far as leaders are concerned, you know, older leaders, what I'll do is I'll use 'em for bass fishing or if I have an old, you know, 3X leader, I'll just cut it back a little bit and put a couple of transition sections on there and make a 5X leader out of it. And you know, since I've got fresh tippet material on the end, I don't really care about the strength of the butt section. I don't know if it matters whether they're in plastic or paper. It's mainly UV light that degrades nylon. So if they've been put away in a drawer somewhere, they should be pretty good. Especially if they've been dry and not exposed to sunlight, they should be just fine. So yeah, use 'em for a butt section of a leader, use 'em for bass fishing or something where you have to cut 'em back and you're not as concerned with not strength. But yeah, I wouldn't throw old leaders out and I wouldn't throw old 20 or 30-pound out. I think that you're still good there.
There's an email from Patrick. "When I first started fly fishing, I initially bought a cheapo 7.5-foot, 3 weight rod, which worked great for the small creeks we have here in western South Carolina and the mountains in North Carolina. I eventually upgraded to a nicer nine-foot, 5 weight to be a little more versatile. I've used it to catch a variety of fish, including trout, panfish, smallies in Michigan, as well as tilapia and peacock bass in Florida. While the five weight does a good enough job for most of these, I find myself having more and more opportunities to fish for larger fish and have been considering getting another rod."
"I have a chance to fish for pike in Michigan, redfish, carp, snakehead in Virginia, among various other species. But each of these opportunities is only once or twice a year. With each species being a rare activity for me, it's hard to justify a perfect outfit for each one. However, I can't decide if I'm being too ambitious to try to buy one rod to do all those tasks. If I did, I was leaning towards a nine-foot 8 weight Recon. I lean towards an 8 weight rather than just buying a 9 weight because I expect I would end up using this rod for bass as well, leaving the 5 weight to be used almost exclusively for trout. Alternatively, should I continue my trend of odd number weighted rods and prioritize a 9 weight now to be sure I can handle the bigger stuff and get a 7 weight later for use as a more dedicated bass rod? Or maybe you have a different idea altogether? Thanks for your help and everything else you do for the sport."
Well, Patrick, I think that 8 weight...I think that 9-foot, 8 weight Recon sounds perfect for what you're planning to do. Nine weight's gonna be probably a little heavy for most of those other species unless you're thinking of going to Louisiana or coastal North Carolina for those much bigger redfish. If you're mainly fishing for the in-shore smaller redfish or puppy drum as some people call 'em, I think you're gonna be fine with an eight weight. And you know, whether you jump to odd sizes and get a nine and then get a seven is really up to you and your budget.
I don't think you need it for what you are talking about now. I think that a five and an eight is gonna do most of the things that you wanna do, and yeah, later on, you might wanna go to a nine or a seven, but you know, if you're looking for a rod right now, I think that 8 weight is about perfect. And someday you might want a 9 weight, someday you might want a 7 weight. But you know, there's actually very little difference between a 7 and 8-weight. There is less difference in those two weights based on the AFTMA standards than the difference in any other fly line sizes, for some reason, the way they got those numbers decided. So I'd stick with an eight and I think you're gonna be happy with it. Worry about the other sizes later.
Here's an email from Monty from the UK. "I grew up on Chalk streams in South England, delicate fishing for spooky browns, which really test the skills, but long casts are really required. When I first went flats fishing in Belize, I seriously underestimated the strength needed to cast a single-handed 12 weight all day, and my casts were 30 to 40 feet short of optimum. What would be your biggest tip to be fit for a big saltwater trip, and is there anything you would practice to make sure you can cast hard and far? Big fan of the show. You are a king amongst men."
Well, thank you, Monty. You know, Monty, I don't think there...honestly I don't think there's that much more strength involved in casting a 12 weight as there is an eight or a nine. And in tarpon fishing, I assume you're tarpon fishing with that 12 weight, you're not casting all day. You know, you're casting to fish that you see, so you're not making a lot of casts. Personally, I'm not very big and I can cast a 12 weight H3 all day long without getting tired. And I think it's more of your casting ability than it is strength. You know, there really isn't much strength involved in casting a fly rod. And yeah, there's a little bit more casting a 12 weight, but it's not that much. I think that playing a tarpon, playing any fish that you're gonna be using a 12 weight for will test your strength. And so I think that...you know, I think that if you wanna build up your strength for playing a fish and for casting a little bit, you know, just any kind of strength training that is whole-body training.
So in other words, you wanna use your lower body a lot more for playing a big fish, like a tarpon, than you do your arms. You know, if you watch somebody like Andy Mill talk about how to play a tarpon, you know, he uses his core and his legs as much or more than he uses his arms to play these big fish. So, any kind of whole-body strength training that you like to do should help. But again, I think that casting practice before you cast that 12 weight so that you don't have to work as hard is going to be a lot better than worrying about strength training.
Here's an email from Tyler from Utah. "Euro nymphing is clearly grown in popularity, and we can all agree it's a very effective tactic on the water. I was thinking though, why is it more effective than a typical nymph setup? I'm questioning it because you can literally use Euro nymph flies, which are essentially tungsten, beadhead nymphs on your regular nymph setup. Is it because there isn't an indicator or a split shot spooking the fish? I can't seem to figure it out. Thanks for your help." Well, Tyler, there is a real strong reason that Euro nymphing can be more effective. And that's because of the difference in current speeds between the top of the water and the current close to the bottom. Current close to the bottom is always gonna be slower than the current at the top because of friction with the bottom of the river.
So, when you fish with an indicator or even a heavier tapered leader, your nymphs are gonna be pulled away from the bottom. Your indicator's gonna pull 'em up from the bottom, or even a heavier tippet material is gonna pull that fly off the bottom. And it can not only not allow you to stay in that deeper zone as long, but it can also cause drag. So with Euro nymphing, if you're doing it properly, you're only casting a light tippet into the water, and the flies are able to sink very quickly because there's nothing retarding their sink rate. So, you know, a common cliché amongst Euro nymphers is thin for the wind. And it's thin, heavy flies in a thin tippet. You know, if you take a weighted fly and you just drop it in the water, even in fairly fast current, it's gonna sink right to the bottom.
So, think of anything you can do to prevent that from being pulled off the bottom when you yarn if you drop those flies right into the water on a thin tippet, and they go right to the bottom. And then when the nymph is drifting, there's not an indicator or heavier line pulling those off the bottom. You've got a straight line, right from the tip of your rod to the flies along the bottom. And I think, you know, when we use split shot on...if we use split shot or really heavy flies on an indicator rig we're using that as much to retard the effect of a bob or an indicator as we are to get the flies down deep because a split shot has got some mass, and it's gonna keep that indicator from pulling your flies off the bottom.
So it acts kind of like an anchor in keeping the influence of that indicator away from the flies. I think there is some indication that using a Euro nymphing method is gonna spook fish less because you don't have a bob and you don't have a split shot landing on the water. All you have is a couple of fairly slim nymphs hitting the water, and they don't make as much of a splash. So there is that, but I think it's more the ability to get your flies down to the bottom, without anything that retards the sink rate.
Mark: Hi, Tom. This is Mark on the South Fork of the Snake. I want to thank you, first of all, for all you do for us. We're sure lucky to have you and Orvis. I have a couple of questions I don't think have been handled or answered. The first question is, occasionally when I either keep a trout to eat it because it's bleeding or it needs to be cold, or when I do a stomach sample, I find a bunch of moss in the stomach. And not just a little bit, a bunch about as big as the end of your thumb there. And I'm just wondering if you know why they do this. I've had it happen at both streams and lakes. And my theory is that the food, whether it's midge larvae, or nymphs, or crest bugs or whatever are in such abundance, that the trout doesn't wanna sort through it and it just swallows the whole thing. I don't think that they're salad eaters at all. But I wondered if you had any input or ideas on that.
The second question I have is, do you know where on a trout the taste organs are? I'm sure they must use those because they certainly prefer certain food, I think based on nutrition and taste. And I think if I could figure out where the taste organ is, it might help. They could sure reject nymphs quickly. And part of it is texture and weight of the nymph, but certainly some of it I think is the taste. On the bigger nymphs, I think they slightly crush 'em and can taste them. Anyway, your thoughts on that would be appreciated. Thanks again for all you do and tight lines, Tom.
Tom: Now, Mark, I think your theory makes sense. I think that fish will often grab a bunch of moss if it's really full of annelids or aquatic worms or midge larvae or crustaceans like scuds. And I think they just grab a bunch of it and...you know, I've seen fish where they'll tear at some moss and then back up and eat the scuds. And I'm sure they get some moss in their stomachs when they do that. So, I think your theory makes sense. It's funny you ask about the taste organs on a trout. Trout have taste organs in various places on their body, but most prominently in their gills and on their lips and not on the tongue like humans. So there may be something to the taste thing because they do have the taste organs on their lips.
However, I think that trout reject flies more because they don't feel right, that, you know, a mayfly nymph or a caddis fly is soft and squishy and our artificial flies are not, they're hard and they have a hook in them. So I think that it's more feel that causes fish to reject things than smell. And, you know, when a fish takes a fly, whether it's a dry fly or a nymph, it's taking it fairly quickly in a current, and there probably isn't much of an opportunity to smell that fly. It could be a factor in saltwater fishing and in lakes where there isn't current and the fish are, you know, chasing a fly that may have a plume of scent behind it, and that's one of the reasons personally, I don't use really stinky head cements, like, people love Sally Hansen's Hard As Nails for head cement, and that stuff smells.
And the smell stays on the flies a lot longer than standard head cement or UV-cured epoxies. And, you know, if you're really worried about the smell you cannot put any head cement at all or epoxy on your flies and just finish 'em off with a couple of whip finishes. I'm not sure if it matters that much in-stream trout fishing, but I think it might matter in stillwater fishing and in saltwater fishing, or in freshwater for carp and bass. And yeah, we could talk about putting scents on flies and that's always a controversial subject, but I'm not gonna get into it here.
My guest today is Steve Ramirez and Steve is the author of "Casting Forward: Fishing Tales from the Texas Hill Country," which is a beautifully lyrical book. And I so admire people who can write lyrically about fly fishing because I can't, and I don't. I don't try to, and you know, someone who can really, really describe what it's like being out there and their emotions and feelings is an author who I admire. So, Steve, it's a is beautiful book and you have a new book, "Casting Onward," which is coming out next April, right?
Steve: Yes, April 1st.
Tom: And that's about chasing native species throughout the United States. And then you have a third in the trilogy called "Casting Seaward," which will be out a couple of years, probably?
Steve: Probably.
Tom: So, great trilogy, and people can start right now with "Casting Forward." It's available. I just finished it myself a couple of weeks ago, a mutual friend sent it to me. And Steve it's, it's a beautiful book and I noticed you have a forward by Ted Williams, who is one of the most highly respected writers in the outdoor field, particularly for conservation. That's a great coup to have a Ted Williams introduction to your book.
Steve: I think so too. And he's a great friend.
Tom: Yeah, well, that's very cool. And Bob White's the illustrator. And boy, you got a pretty good roundup there. Definitely got a...
Steve: I'm pretty fortunate.
Tom: Definitely got a good round-up. So, we're gonna talk about native species today and you know, their value and, I don't know, whether we should concentrate more on fishing for native species. I'm gonna shut up and let you talk about it.
Steve: Well, I'm certainly biased. So, I just spent a lot of time...first in "Casting Forward," my focus was to write what I sometimes call a love letter to the Texas Hill Country, which a lot of fly casters, a lot of anglers don't know about.
Tom: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Steve: And I have the same concern here that many of us do for our home waters, that you can see them vanishing. And we have a native species here, the Guadalupe bass, that almost vanished. It's coming back. And so I traveled across America using native fish as sort of a bellwether and to look at how are we doing? You know, what's our report card, whether it be in Massachusetts, West Virginia, Montana, whatever, all the way to Alaska? And there's a lot we can learn by just looking at native fish and what their current status is and how we are interacting with them. So...
Tom: Well, why should we care about native fish? I mean, I dearly love carp and brown trout. Neither of those are native, but they're some of my favorite fish. But why should I care when so many other things in nature and in our environment now are not native? I mean, I can't imagine living without honeybees or watercrafts, or you know, lots of other beneficial things that aren't native to North America. Why should I care about native fish?
Steve: Well, that is a really great, complex question. And I'll tell you why I care and then why I think we should care.
Tom: Okay.
Steve: And I'm gonna go around about. So, I used to hunt quite a bit and I hunted kudu in Africa. And the reason I hunted kudu in Africa, not in the Texas Hill Country ranch that has them running around here, is I wanted to have the real experience, not something that was created. I didn't want to go to Disney world thanks to Jungle Cruise. So, my first reason is there's something wonderful about being in a natural environment and as much as possible, there's no place now that's untouched. So, as much as possible, having an authentic experience. Far more importantly it has nothing to do with me. Native fish, like other parts of nature, are really good indicators, not just what we're doing with the fish, but what we're doing to the entire planet, what we're doing to... So one of the things I did in this writing is trying to get anglers and all of us to think more on the idea of watersheds rather than counties or states. Because the earth is made up of watersheds [crosstalk 00:46:34].
Tom: Right.
Steve: And once we start looking at watersheds, we start looking at native fish, it teaches us a whole lot about what's going on. One of the things that I wrote into one of my books, I don't remember which one, is that I think it's a great idea for those anglers that like to keep an anglers log, to add something in besides how many fish you caught and what size they were, and start adding in, "What do we notice about the place we love? Native fish will tell you a whole lot about what's happening with everything else around you, and if we don't pay attention, there's areas of the Texas Hill Country where the rivers I used to fish are now gone. It's dry. There's places where the creatures I used to see are no longer there.
I think that matters in the short run. It matters for the experience we have, but more importantly, as outdoors people, I think we need to pay attention to what place we love is teaching us about the impact of seven...well, almost 8 billion human beings drawn from it. So, that'd be my first big reason, is because it matters. It matters beyond my generation. And I've certainly seen it as I've traveled across the country. There's just too many of us to be keeping so extractive. I think the other thing is, I agree with you, I love brown trout. And it's funny, I was fishing with Kirk Dieter up in Colorado and we were searching for Colorado river cutthroats and the Colorado River drainage. But we couldn't find them. We found brown trout.
Tom: Yeah.
Steve: And Kirk's favorite fish is brown trout. It is his favorite fish. We had a deep talk about that. So, I don't think there's...I'm not trying to say that we should not have brown trouts anywhere. I'm trying to write that maybe it's really important that we have someplace where we can go where New Mexico state fish can actually be caught where it started. I don't...personally, this is a personal thing. I don't want to catch a Rio Grande cutthroat in a lake in Colorado. I wanna have that whole experience.
So some of this is just aesthetics, but some of it, I think is...I'm really hoping that since we all love being out in nature, that we'll actually love it. There's a difference between loving and using in relationships between people. So, I guess my fairly longwinded answer is native fish are teaching us what's happening. And when I can go with Toner Mitchell in the mountains that he grew up in and we are searching for Rio Grande cutthroats and we can't find them in rivers they should be in, that should tell us an awful lot.
Tom: Absolutely. Yeah. I know that I have a special little stream not too far from my house. It's a headwaters of a trout stream and the river that it feeds has wild browns, rainbows, and brook trout. But in headwaters it only has brook trout, there's an impassable falls and it's very cold and sterile. And those fish were probably never, ever stocked. And it's a very pristine watershed with, you know, I mean, it was probably logged in at one time because everything in Vermont was logged. But it's about as pristine as you get. And when I bring people from out of town to go fishing, it's one of the first places I'll take 'em because they appreciate it too, you know? If they're people that I like, they appreciate it anyways. And...
Steve: Sure.
Tom: And had Erica Nelson from Colorado here, a couple of weeks ago, and we went up and caught these little tiny brook trout and, you know, she appreciated it and she got excited about it. And so did I, so I do sympathize with you. I was just playing devil's advocate with my brown trout, carp comments.
Steve: Oh, it's a great question. It's a great, solid question. And I was just up in Alaska, in Southeast Alaska, and I was talking to a gentleman by the name of Mark Hieronymus up there, who worked with Trout Unlimited on that project with Sam. And we were talking about it is a question we're gonna have to decide. Is a wild native fish worth something to us? Or is any fish fine? And I don't know the answer to that. I know what my answer is. The other thing though is when you take your friends up there, you're showing them Vermont, correct?
Tom: Yeah.
Steve: Your Vermont?
Tom: Yeah.
Steve: I'm really looking forward to my next trip over to the UK to fish for brown trout.
Tom: In their native environment. Yeah.
Steve: There's just something special about knowing, "Okay, these fish have been here a long, long time. So yeah, I think it has value in that it teaches us something and what I'm hoping is more and more, we as anglers we'll realize that if this is something we love, something we wanna pass on from generation to generation, one of the greatest gifts we can give, then we need to make sure it's still there.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about some of the species that you chased across North America.
Steve: Sure.
Tom: So, tell me some stories, tell me some of the more interesting stories of some of these native species that you caught.
Steve: There are so many because they were [inaudible 00:52:57] start. And they're not all cold-water species.
Tom: No, let's talk about everything. Let's talk about the warm water fish and the sunfish and all kinds of things.
Steve: Sure. So I'll tell you that, obviously, I went after quite a few native cutthroat species. One of the things that's really interesting in a tragic sort of way is so many states in the American west have a cutthroat species as their state fish and almost each and every one of those, that fish is quite threatened in that state. So, I found it really fascinating. For example, I went after the three species...the four species of cutthroats in Utah, and I'm not really one for the idea of anything that's competitive in fly-fishing. I do it, as you might guess, for my writing, because I think it's beautiful. And I do it for different reasons. When people tell me, "I outfished you," I said, "I'm really happy for you."
So, I don't care. Everybody's a better angler than I am. I still have fun. So, when I went there, what made it great was I was having to immerse myself into the habitat of four different kinds of fish in one state. So Brett Perdimand [SP] and I, we took off after... somewhat we did first. I think we went after Bear River cutthroats first and went up on the Bear River in the middle of the wilderness. And we did catch our Bear River cutthroats. Now, I caught brook trout from the east about four to one. And it's something to think about because I have to tell you, there's such joy in catching the Bear River cutthroat in the Bear River. But they're being outcompeted. So the next thing we did is we went and caught the Colo River...Colorado River cutthroat. We had to go drive up into Wyoming and back down into Utah to get into that watershed. And we went after Colorado River cutthroats. And we did catch those too, that was even more challenging. Something that I had to go to Utah to get my Colorado River cutthroat.
So, that was also a challenging, whole different environment experience. It felt like a separate adventure, even though it was just, you know, a day apart. From there, we're down in a canyon and we're going after Bonneville cutthroats. Again, whole different feeling, same state. And we're having to immerse ourselves into where this fish comes from, even learning the geology of how it's switched in time when there was earthquakes that moved water systems. And then the last one at that particular visitor state was Yellowstone cutthroat. And there's only one population of those in Utah and they're cut off from the rest. That was just...there's one example of a single trip. What I was able to see and write about, is how much joy there is in focusing on a fish rather than how many fish.
Tom: Yeah. Or how big a fish, right?
Steve: Right. I have to tell you, my first Bear River cutthroat was so small, I could have just kept it in an aquarium. But I really loved it. Conversely, when I was on Pyramid Lake, now going after Lahontan cutthroats, I caught some very big fish and I enjoyed it. But they're all out of a hatcher.
Tom: Right. Yeah.
Steve: And they're going around in circles and you can pretty much time when they're gonna get to you, to your ladder.
Tom: Yeah.
Steve: So, it was a wonderful experience, but I'll tell you, here's what I experienced...here's what I thought. I will definitely go back to Utah and climb those canyons again. I don't know that I'm gonna stand on the ladder and stare at the barber.
Tom: Yeah. I don't blame you.
Steve: I'm glad I did it. And some people...I have friends that go every year and they love it. And I'm really glad I did it.
Tom: It's never appealed to me very much.
Steve: I guess if you want me to keep sharing, I love fishing in the desert for trout. So, a good example is the Gila trout which I've caught both in Arizona and in the Gila wilderness of New Mexico. And I absolutely adore that fish. And if you haven't, if your listeners haven't caught Gila trout, I tell them, go do it. You can actually set it up so you can be up in the wilderness of the White Mountains in Arizona catching Apache trout in one day and you can catch Gila trout the next. And it's in some of the most stark, beautiful country where there's Mexican wolves living around you. I have to say that our native fish live in some of the most beautiful places.
Tom: Yeah. They sure do.
Steve: So that's...you know, that's just some of the trout species I mentioned to you that I followed. Salmon in Southeast Alaska, and started in saltwater, catching them there in the saltwater, and then followed them up the river all the way to the tributaries in the Tongass National Forest. And in the last catch that we made, we didn't use flyer rods, we used dip nets. And we were catching baby Coho salmon.
Tom: Oh, cool.
Steve: Way up in the mountains, just to prove they were there. Great experiences.
Tom: Now, how about some of the warm water species that you...
Steve: Absolutely. So, you mentioned Bob White, I'm fortunate enough, not only to have such a wonderful artist doing artwork in my books but as one of my best friends. And Bob's one of the greatest people I know. And I spent time...writing the second book, I spent time going down to Saint Croix River with Bob and Lisa. And we were chasing smallmouth, musky, and pike. And there's a whole 'nother great experience. I have to say, I love catching trout, I've loved catching salmon, but I'm really addicted to bass fishing with a fly. That's probably because I grew up in the south. But the other reasons, I've got a friend, Kevin Hutchison, who says, "Trout fishing is ballet, bass fishing is a street fight." So, I think the marine in me likes it.
So we were, and I actually just came back from musky fishing up in Wisconsin. And that's another freshwater species bass all across the American south.
Tom: Yeah.
Steve: Especially in Alabama with the red-eye bass, which is finally starting to get some attention. It's great fly fishing and it's a great different experience for an angler, different environment. So, I've done that as well, as well as salt, and all of it's different...you mentioned bluegill?
Tom: Yeah.
Steve: And sunfish? I wrote a chapter just on that and actually have a little piece out in a magazine right now about this because most of us started out, I could guess, with bluegill and sunfish.
Tom: Yeah.
Steve: I did.
Tom: I did too.
Steve: And it's like your gateway drug species. And now that I'm getting older, I'm finding I'm enjoying them as much as anything.
Tom: Yeah.
Steve: So, again, that's a wonderful fish if you're taking a kid out or you're taking yourself out as a big kid.
Tom: What species of sunfish did you catch on your native species tour?
Steve: Well, we have quite a few here in the Texas Hill Country if I only focus on that.
Tom: Okay.
Steve: So, and we have one that's not an actual sunfish but it's about the same size, which is the Rio Grande cichlid. It's the only cichlid native to America, to North America. And then we have quite a few different species of sunfish here from bluegill, non-native yellow belly that isn't native here, red-breasted, green sunfish, warmouth. I'm leaving some out, long-eared, so all over the place, I've been able to find different ones, but those are the ones we have here that I really enjoy catching on a little 3 weight rod.
Tom: Now, are all of those except the yellow-bellied, native to Texas?
Steve: Yes. That's the only one that was brought down here. And the Guadalupe bass that I mentioned, for those who do not know, it's a bass that I say thinks it's a trout, that's fast water, only gets to about three pounds, but thinks it's bigger than that. They're fun to catch. They're beautiful fish. Only found in a Texas Hill Country. They were almost exterminated and that's because of our own wonderful people, and I'm saying that truthfully, impacts on wildlife, didn't know, at the time, the damage it would cause to put non-native smallmouth bass here.
Tom: Oh, yeah.
Steve: Which almost caused them to become genetically extinct. We've rectified that.
Tom: Do they inter-breed with smallmouths, the Guadalupe bass?
Steve: They do, and that's the problem. And the smallmouth is dominant. So yeah, they do. And we also, of course, have a largemouth bass here. I dunno, largemouth? So...
Tom: Are they native to Texas as well, largemouth?
Steve: The northern is. The problem we have, again, it's the same thing. Now, if you're an angler and just want big fish, this is not a problem for you at all. But everywhere you go in Texas, the native largemouth is hard to genetically find because Florida strained largemouth has been placed everywhere to try to get the bass bigger.
Tom: Can you tell the difference between a Florida strain and a northern largemouth, physically?
Steve: To my knowledge, you cannot, but I'm not a biologist.
Tom: Yeah. You have to do a DNA analysis to determine that.
Steve: Right. And it's even hard with our Guadalupe bass. If you go to a river, like the San Marcus, they look like Guadalupe bass, but a DNA analysis might show that they have an awful lot of smallmouth in them.
Tom: Yeah. Are there any places you know of that are pure Guadalupe bass where they haven't been interbred?
Steve: Oh yes. It is getting better all the time.
Tom: Oh, great. Good.
Steve: Yeah. Because Texas Parks and Wildlife has been doing a wonderful job at reversing the mistakes of the past, which is when you're asking about why should we care, we're not gonna fix everything that's been done, but we can make it better.
Tom: Certainly. Yeah.
Steve: So, sure. If I have someone come down here and visit me and I want them to see Guadalupe bass, the native bass of Texas, the state bass of Texas, I'm gonna take them to the Guadalupe River north of the dam, or I'm gonna take them to the Llano River. That's probably where I'm really gonna take them. Or I'm gonna take them to the South Llano River or I'm gonna take them to Nueces River. And they're gonna have pure strain Guadalupe bass.
Tom: Those cichlids fascinate me. I really want to catch one of those someday. They look so interesting. And the fact that it's the only native cichlid in North America is pretty cool.
Steve: They really are. They're one of my favorites. Even though they don't get that big, they're little bruisers. They fight and they're absolutely stunningly beautiful.
Tom: Yeah. They're gorgeous. I've seen pictures of 'em.
Steve: Yeah. I really wanna see them stick around. Every time I catch a Rio Grande cichlid, it's like a little gift.
Tom: Yeah.
Steve: It's usually a surprise.
Tom: Are they hard to find and are they threatened?
Steve: No, but they're very restricted in where they're found.
Tom: Okay.
Steve: And there are certain parts of a river you'll find them and certain parts you won't. But they're very restricted where they're found. So, the problem with that, with anything, whether you're talking about them or you're talking about Gila trout, it is so easy to lose the entire population very quickly.
Tom: Yeah.
Steve: And there's no coming back. And I would say just bouncing off this briefly, in all my travels, I saw that very much with the Apache trout. And I don't know that the Apache's gonna survive. Simply because the water is warming.
Tom: Yeah.
Steve: And they are retreating up the mountains, but the mountains only go so high there.
Tom: Right. Yeah.
Steve: At a certain part, there's no more mountain anymore.
Tom: So it's climate change that's...
Steve: Definitely.
Tom: ....that's threatening them. Yeah.
Steve: Definitely. I've been speaking with the lead biologist, who's a friend of mine there, and I asked him, "Do you think there's any hope?" And his response was, "I think there is, because I think we can find enough cold springs to keep some alive somewhere." But that's pretty stark.
Tom: Yeah. That is...yeah. Not exactly encouraging.
Steve: It's better than no. So, mostly, these travels have...the other thing I've done, Tom, is if I was in Vermont, I wanna see the place you love and tell it through your eyes the way I'd try to show you if you were down here at Texas.
Tom: Yeah.
Steve: And that's what I've tried to do everywhere I've gone. I've gone up to Idaho and said to my friend, Eileen Lane, "Take me to where you love to fish for these red band trout in the desert canyons." And then write that story because when we're passionate about a place and we love it, there's no better way to tell that story.
Tom: Yeah. So, tell us the most...what was the most unusual or interesting native species you caught other than the trout?
Steve: Other than trout?
Tom: Yeah. Other than trout.
Steve: Well, that's cutting a whole lot of fish out.
Tom: Oh, there's so many other fish besides trout.
Steve: Yes. And we kind of talked about how much I love catching the Rio Grande cichlids.
Tom: Uh-huh.
Steve: And there's nothing unusual per se about catching pike and bass.
Tom: Yeah.
Steve: But I sure do love it. So, when you cut trout out, and I'm trying to think of unusual. Unusual fish I've caught is, I can tell you going after longnose gar with Chris Wood up in the Potomac River. That's unusual. We're using a rope fly with no hook.
Tom: Yeah.
Steve: And that got me to thinking, actually, of something I may get crazy enough to try someday, which is just fishing somewhere with no hook on my fly, just to feel the touch, see how much I can do.
Tom: There're people that do that.
Steve: But there's an example of going after garfish, which I would say can be very challenging, and they're just such a fascinating fish that have been treated like a junk fish.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Steve: And they're prehistoric. Here in Texas, I haven't gone for them yet, but we have alligator gar that was originally going to be part of the second book, but with COVID, we have to kind of shut that particular trip down. But those are...I would say going for garfish is a pretty unusual thing to do.
Tom: Yeah.
Steve: And releasing them.
Tom: Did you get cut?
Steve: No.
Tom: No? You're lucky.
Steve: So...
Tom: I bet you got smelly, though.
Steve: Well, I get smelly all the time I fish.
Tom: Yeah. Gar, especially.
Steve: I'm catching bonefish. I know I've had a good trip if I've all slimed and I have to throw the shirt off.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Steve: So...
Tom: That's a badge of honor.
Steve: So that's what I'd say. Now, if I can throw trout back in there.
Tom: Okay. Throw trout back in there. We'll let you...we'll give you your trout.
Steve: I'm just gonna say, I throw trout back in there and people say, "What's your favorite that you've gone after?" I can narrow that down.
Tom: Okay. All right.
Steve: And one, I've already mentioned the Gila trout because this fish can make it in some pretty stark country.
Tom: Yeah.
Steve: They can take the heat and it's just such an unusual experience to be in a canyon in the middle of the desert fishing for Gila trout. Because the other thing that happens when you're fishing in the desert is that stream, that river, that creek is the center of all life. So, all the wildlife you want to see, all the birdlife, all the trees are all in the same spot. So that was really nice. And I'm gonna show my bias towards desert fishing too. When I went to Idaho and fished for red band trout, which are genetically steelhead, and I know a lot of anglers don't know that, you isolate steelhead, they stay small. I really loved fishing for those. The middle of desert canyons that people don't even pay any attention to. So I would say those are my favorites.
Tom: What were those rivers tributary to in Idaho where you caught at the redbands?
Steve: Well, one of them is a tributary to nothing. It... Well, I shouldn't say that. No, it would've gone into the Boise River, eventually. And I'm sworn to secrecy what these others are.
Tom: Oh, okay. All right. All right. We don't wanna blow any spots here. We don't do that on the podcast.
Steve: It's not that, actually. I found out some of these places, biologists in the area have been trying to protect these small streams because these fishes are fragile.
Tom: Yeah. Okay.
Steve: They're trying to bring them back.
Tom: Fair enough.
Steve: So, the other area's gonna be in the Auwahi desert area, which is, if people haven't been there, stunningly beautiful. I love the stark country. So, and sometimes it's very technical, small stream angling. I have to tell you, I can get very excited about an eight-inch fish on a 3 weight rod.
Tom: Oh, well, you'd love Vermont then.
Steve: I can get very excited about that. And I get as excited about that as I did a 10 pound Lahontan in Pyramid Lake.
Tom: Standing on a ladder.
Steve: Right. I think it was really wonderful. I enjoyed it. But when you're in the middle of a wilderness.
Tom: Yeah. It's a different...
Steve: And you're watching over your shoulder for a bear.
Tom: Yeah.
Steve: There's a certain special little edge to that. I also like the insanity of it. So, just to laugh at myself, I travel all over the place and struggle through brush and briar to catch us fish that I'm gonna immediately release.
Tom: Yeah. That's only eight inches long, right?
Steve: Sometimes.
Tom: Yeah.
Steve: So, I think there's so much adventure for us to have as we're seeking native fish, but I also am hoping that as people do this, is going to hit us all in the face a little bit that times are changing and really fast.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Steve: And I feel a little sad about it to tell you the truth. I have heard so many people take me to their native waters and say, "It used to be this." And I also wanna tell you the other part, I have gone to places where it is now wonderful, and it wasn't. So, if you want, I'll give you an example.
Tom: Yeah, please do. Yeah.
Steve: So, I purposely did the second book so that the first chapter, and all my first chapters are called "First Cast," is me and Chris Wood at what I'll call the dirty end of the Potomac, right by the White House, the Capitol building, National Mall. And we're fishing there for longnose gar. And there's a lot of things going on that ended the Potomac. There's a lot of things that are beautiful and there's a lot of things that are really troubling. I purposely ended this book by going to the clean end of the Potomac in West Virginia and the headwaters with Dustin Wichterman, who's the biologist for Trout Unlimited there, and wrote the story of what it's like when we take care of a place and fix it back up. And these waters have had often been damaged through mining and other actions, a lot of them had been restored. I got to visit the various things that groups have done to restore these places, to work with landowners, to make sure that the cattle were getting water, but it wasn't harming the streams.
Tom: Right.
Steve: And what a different experience. It's pristine. I mean, let's be honest. It's not really pristine, because no water is, anymore. I lived in Africa for two years and even in the middle of the Ivory Coast, I found marks of humanity in the middle of a rainforest. But it gives you that feeling that you're someplace special. That's where I would take my daughter when she was young, places that I thought were special. And that's where I'm hoping other people can take their kids.
Tom: Were those brook trout that you caught in the headwaters of the Potomac?
Steve: Yes. And I gotta tell you, it's just my own personal bias. I caught brook trout in the west and they were gorgeous. They're beautiful creatures and it's not their fault they're there, but it didn't feel the same.
Tom: Yeah. No, it doesn't. Yeah.
Steve: For me, catching the brook trout in the Appalachian Mountains with somebody who grew up there and has generations of history of watching the struggle, that felt like...it felt triumphant. It felt like a triumph, to see this water and him to be able to say to me, "It used to be like this, but we've got it like this now." It feels good.
Tom: What did they do there, Steve, to mitigate the acid mine drainage?
Steve: Well, there's so much that they're doing in different places across the country, depending in part on geology and other circumstances. And that area that I was at in West Virginia, if we would've gone over to the next watershed, the story wasn't quite as good because of the effects of acid rain and other situations. But we can mitigate some damage. What's happened in this particular watershed that helped them is that the geology is limestone.
Tom: Oh, that's good. Yeah.
Steve: So, that really helped them have a jump-off point to try to address that and have that population come back.
Tom: Okay.
Steve: But I find it depends. And one of the other things that's a problem is, how do we think about the people that are using and drawing from all these rivers? I was fishing in rivers that used to make it to the Great Salt Lake and they don't go anywhere close to it anymore. They're drying up. But how do we get the water to people and not drain everything? So, what I found with agencies like TU and others is they're finding ways to have agreements and partnerships so that people do get their crops watered, they're cattle fed, but it's not destroying the river.
Tom: Yeah. We've been talking about that a lot on podcasts on water use and water laws and water withdrawal. And it's a difficult, difficult question, but...
Steve: It is.
Tom: But there are things we could do to help anyway.
Steve: And some of it is gonna have to be policy, but that has to be driven from the ground up. It has to be people saying, "We want this."
Tom: Yeah. People have to care about it. Yeah.
Steve: Right. And that's...I say this all the time, we protect what we love, we love what we know. And so, I'm trying to get across America now out to see, so more people will see this and say, "You know, I want to go there. I'm gonna take my eight weight." And once you go there and you see it that way, I think we start caring a little more. I hope.
Tom: Yep.
Steve: I hope.
Tom: Yep. Well, I think you're right because I know that the feedback I get from podcasts, the emails that I get from people, and the voice files, people want to hear more about this kind of thing. People want to know what they can do. And that's so encouraging.
Steve: Yeah. I think the first thing...you asked a great question in the beginning, and I don't know how well I answered it, but native fish are a good way for us to see what our paradigms are, what our beliefs are, and how we value everything, not just mere fish because they speak to the habitat, the water, the air, the land, the soil, the trees, the geology. They also speak to how do we see things? Is it a thing to you? I just went through this with an editorial thing. I sometimes refer to fish or as I let him go, I let her go. And editors will ask me, "Why are you doing that?" And I'll say, "Because I want the angler to see, it's not just a number." I didn't just chuck this thing into the...and check it off the box. It goes into our human constructs and our power to collectively say, "This matters." So yeah, there is so much we can do. And the benefits to us, I believe, are far more than the cost. It just takes a little bit of caring.
Tom: Yep. Certainly addresses our quality of life.
Steve: Sure. And the thing is water is the...you know, it's so cliché to say this, the lifeblood of everything.
Tom: It is. Yeah.
Steve: Native fish tell us about the water. The water we drink...so, the people in Washington, in that water that Chris Wood and I were standing in, which I would not want to drink the way it is, you know, we call that America's river, the Potomac. The people making those decisions are also the same people drinking that water. So...and that's true for all of us. So, I don't wanna sound like I'm thumping a conservation book here, but I am because I think all of us just really love being out there for a reason. And I try to think to myself, I just got done reading Cormac McCarthy's, "The Road." And I thought, what if our rivers were like that? If I went fishing and there was no fish? Would I still go? I think we're at a good time, actually, we can...pulling together, I think we're gonna make a huge difference. That's what I'm telling myself.
Tom: Well, thank you for being so thoughtful and articulate about it in a way that I couldn't be, so really appreciate that.
Steve: That's very kind of you.
Tom: Well, Steve, that was fascinating. And I want to thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts about the value of native species. I think you're gonna make a lot of us think more about what we're doing and why, and you know, why a native fish is still there or why it maybe isn't there anymore, and what we can do to bring it back. So, I really appreciate that.
Steve: Thank you so much.
Tom: We have been talking to Steve Ramirez, the author of "Casting Forward: Fishing Tales from the Texas Hill Country" by Lyons Press. And then, Steve, your next upcoming books are "Casting Onward" and "Casting Seaward," right?
Steve: That's correct.
Tom: All right. Well, thank you again, Steve, and wish you the best of luck. And if you're ever in Vermont, I'm gonna take you to that little brook trout stream.
Steve: I look forward to that, Tom.
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