Reed Teuscher on Planning Your Dream Trip to Alaska
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast. This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. This week, we're gonna be talking about your trip to Alaska. If you've never been to Alaska, you owe yourself at least one trip and probably more. And if you have been to Alaska, you know that it's a vast and wonderful resource for the fly fisher. And my guest this week is Reed Teuscher. Reed is one of the 14 people on the Orvis Outfitters staff.
And I'll tell you a little bit about the Outfitter staff. When you contact Orvis, when you go into the contact Orvis area of the website or in a catalog, and you see a number for fishing questions, you don't just get directed to a call center. You get directed to an individual who might live in Oregon or California or might be in Roanoke, Virginia. And these are all anglers, they're all serious fly fishers. Some of them have worked at Orvis retail stores, many of them have guided before. And they're knowledgeable anglers.
So if you call that number, which is 888-709-4732, or if you email
But first, let's answer some questions in the Fly Box, and the Fly Box is where you can ask me questions and I'll try to answer them. You can reach me with an email at
So Corby first of all for casting nymphs...for casting a Euro nymphing rod, there's no better place than the Orvis Learning Center where there is a video there with George Daniel, who goes into quite a bit of detail on how to cast these rigs. It's much better to look at a video than for me to tell you here on a podcast. And also, I would go and look at Pete Kutzer's basic casting videos. Pete doesn't have a specific video on casting dry flies with a Euro rod. That's a good idea for the future. We don't have one right now, but I'll keep that one in mind.
But basically, the rods are slower, much slower in the tip. So you just want to slow down your casting stroke more so than you would with a standard graphite rod because the tips are slow and they're going to move a little slower and the line is very delicate. And, you know, you can get away with quite a bit more wrist. You can cast these rods with a dry fly with almost just a flick of your wrist. Use a little forearm if you want. But you can make them work quite well just by using a wrist. So anyway, just slow down and use your basic forward casting stroke or roll cast and you should be fine. And we'll try to make a video about doing this sometime in the future.
But another email, this one's from Daniel. "Hi, Tom. I'm thinking about taking the Euro nymphing leap after watching the Orvis series with George Daniel. As someone who is vertically challenged, I'm wondering if I would be better off with a rod longer than 10 foot. I suspect the difference would be slight, but I also know that my size means I cannot wade out as far into the currents as other anglers." Well, Daniel, yes. You know, it's more about your arm length than your height. But yeah, you're going to get a little bit more distance with a longer rod and you're not going to have to wade quite as far out.
So I would go with something like the new blackout rod which is in the neighborhood of 11 feet long. I think that extra foot is going to help you out. So yeah, I would definitely go with a longer rod for Euro nymphing.
David: Hi, Tom. My name is David and I live and fish in central-western New Jersey. Over the last year, I rediscovered fly fishing after about an eight-year break. Two of my friends have also joined me this last season, and I would consider all three of us novices, at best. So recently, in late October, we took our second trip to the Upper Delaware River in the Catskills in New York. We did not do a drift boat, we simply waded off the property that we rented for the weekend.
The river near the property had a variety of water types and enough depth. We fished for about two days and we caught a few small brown trout. They were at best maybe eight or nine inches. Some were caught on beadhead nymphs, some on dries. So this may be a stupid question. But I started to wonder, were catching small fish because they're just easier to catch? I'm assuming bigger fish are smarter. They got big for a reason, right? Or is it possible we were fishing an area where only younger browns inhabited? Out of the five fish we caught, I was surprised how they were all consistently small. Thanks for your help. Your podcasts are a great resource. And they demystify a lot of what makes fly fishing intimidating to beginners.
Tom: Well, David, that's an interesting question. And it's not a stupid question at all. It's an excellent question. There are a number of reasons, most of which you accurately pointed out. So if you're only catching small fish, there's some things that could be going on. One is, yes, they're usually easier to catch, they're not quite as wary or experienced as a larger, older fish. And the smaller fish tend to feed more often than the larger fish. The smaller fish tend to always be on the feed whereas the larger fish, particularly when you have a brown trout population, those bigger fish will kind of hang back and not feed unless there's a lot of food available such as a hatch or just, you know, a rise of water that dislodges a bunch of nymphs and gets them on the feed.
So yeah, they could be easier to catch, they eat more often. And yes, you could also be fishing an area where only the smaller ones live. You know, smaller fish can live side by side with big fish, but they'll tend to be typically in shallower faster, a little more riffly water. And the bigger fish will tend to be in a little bit deeper water, a little bit closer to cover. So, you know, I fish that river as well. And my advice to you would be not stay in one place. If you're just catching small fish and you don't see any large ones, move around a bit. There's plenty of places to walk and wade and look around.
And sometimes you have to hunt the big ones. You can't stay in one spot and expect a big one to suddenly appear. So if you're just catching small ones, try some other places, generally places with a little bit slower, deeper water, and more cover. All right. Let's do another email. This one's from Jeff from Missouri.
Jeff has three questions. "Do you have an effective and efficient way of measuring leaders to determine how much tippet to put on? I usually ask my son to hold the loop at the end of the leader and a tape measure. Number two, I hear you talk a lot about fishing a dry dropper. What is the percentage of fish caught on the dropper versus the dry? And number three, I've heard Andy Mill and other saltwater anglers discuss marking the reels with nail polish at various drag settings, 6-pound, 10-pound, 12-pound, etc. Is this something you can do with any reel or is it only on the high-end, 10 to 12-weight reels used for tarpon and other saltwater species?"
All right, so question one. How do you measure? I assume you mean measuring tippet. You can measure the leader kind of against your rod. You know either you have an 8-foot, or 8 and a half, or 9-foot and you can lay the...just pull the leader out and lay it alongside the rod and you can get a pretty good idea of how long the leader is in relation to the rod. And I don't carry a tape measure, but the other measurement I use is I stretch my hands out to each side as far as I can stretch them, straight out from my body. And that's about five feet, for me, probably more for a lot of people. But that's somewhere in the neighborhood of five feet.
And so, you know, I like my tippet, somewhere around anywhere between three and five feet, at times. So, you know, I can just estimate. Knowing how long five feet is, I can just pull a little bit shorter piece if I want a three-foot or a two-foot or whatever, just by knowing that distance. And also, a good unit of measure is a hand span. So if you stretch out all your fingers, and you measure from the tip of your little finger to the end of your thumb, that's a good measurement. I often use it to measure fish. And on me, I think it's nine inches. Seven or nine inches, I can't remember now. I haven't measured it in a while. Anyway, measure your hand span and use that for a measurement.
So you shouldn't have to carry a tape measure around and your leader measurements don't have to be that precise. Your question number two, fishing a dry dropper. Boy, that really depends, you know. I know that when the water is cold and particularly if there are brown trout in a river and I'm fishing a small stream with both brown and brook trout, I'll catch most of my brown trout on the nymph. And when I'm fishing for brook trout, it's about usually about 50/50, half on the dry and half on the nymph.
And then if I'm fishing a cutthroat river, cutthroats are very surface-oriented. It might be like 80% on the dry or more, sometimes 100% on the dry. So it really depends on the water temperature and the fish species and everything else. But, you know, we like to use a dry dropper because we can figure out whether the fish are surface-oriented or not. And, you know, we all like to fish dry flies. And if you fish for an hour and you don't get a single rise to the dry fly, it might be time to maybe put on an indicator and use two nymphs.
If all your fish are coming to the dry, then you might want to try fishing a single dry or maybe two dries, a dry/dry instead of a dry dropper, or a dry/dry dropper. I don't how you say it. Hank Patterson would know. Anyway, so it really varies, it really depends. And it's going to vary. Probably even in the same stream, it's going to differ every time you go out. So I can't give you really an accurate percentage.
Regarding marking reels. Some reels actually have detents where you can figure out where your drag should be set and do it at a consistent setting. But for things like tarpon and, oh, you know, tuna and maybe big Barracuda or sailfish, something that makes long runs and you really need to put some pressure on them, you might want to know where those settings are. I think for most freshwater fishing, trout, and bass and even carp, generally, most people just set their drag at one setting and don't change it for the entire season. You know, fairly light, just enough to prevent the spool from overrunning. And maybe a little bit more if you're fishing streamers with a heavy tippet, you can just tighten it a bunch.
But seldom do we need to worry about adjusting our drag within a fight, in the heat of the moment. So yeah, it's important for some of the saltwater fishing but I wouldn't worry too much about it. And yes, you can mark any reel with a waterproof marker if you want. If you don't like those marks, you can always remove them with a little bit of alcohol. But you can do it. Certainly, a good idea. So give it a try.
Here's a interesting email from Carl from Norway. "I just started fly fishing about two years ago in my 30s. So I spent most of my 20s with heavy drug abuse which I quit at 27. Well, after a few years when I was 31, I'd started a family and decided to give up drinking as well. Not that my drinking was anywhere near as extreme, but it certainly wasn't doing my new life any favors either. Well, now, what was I gonna do with my free time? I remember enjoying regular lure fishing a lot as a kid, and I decided to get after it. I stumbled over your stuff and that just led me to becoming a fly fisher instead. Sorry. I couldn't be happier with that decision. Not only that fly fishing shares several of the attributes with early drug use that I used to love such as geeking out over the activity, the sense of adventure, losing myself in the moment, and of course, the narcotic rush of catching a nice fish on a dry fly. It does all this and more without any of the bad parts. So thanks, Tom, you probably don't have any idea how much I appreciate it."
Well, thank you, Carl. That's very touching. Now that we've gotten the touchy-feely stuff out of the way, let's move on. "I write to you because of the fellow a couple episodes ago who asked you, 'What do you want from us?' And you wanted to know what we've enjoyed from the podcast lately, amongst a bunch of other stuff I totally haven't forgotten. Well, my favorite episode of the last year or so was when you brought on scientists such as the Grayling Lady and the rainbow trout guy. I totally haven't forgotten their names either. I enjoyed those so much got my mind flying with curiosity and questions. I can't be the only one.
Let me finish this long email on a more selfish request. That you have a few Stillwater episodes in your catalog. But they all talk about boat fishing. Do you know any Stillwater by foot/wading experts? Oslo is surrounded by hundreds of small forest lakes less than a square mile, most of which are significantly less and they pretty much have all brown trout in them. Thanks again, Tom. And thanks for helping us all catch fish."
Well, thank you very much, Carl. And that's a great idea for a podcast of Stillwater on foot. So I will go to my panel of Stillwater experts and I will develop a podcast along that line. Thanks very much. Here is an email from Tom from Connecticut. "I do most of my fishing on saltwater. I live in Stamford, Connecticut on the sound and have a boat close to my house. I tag all my fish for the American Latourell society. Last year, I caught, tagged, and released 213 stripers and 135 in 2019." That's a great season.
"I mostly go out before the sunrise and fish locally not more than 10 minutes from my dock. I catch most of my fish in one spot. Question one. Why did Orvis stop making one-piece rods? I cast a lot with Clousers and hate having to lose segments of my rods. Plus, a one-piece casts better in my opinion. Question two. What do I do when I see people keeping stripers below the legal size, besides telling them politely and then getting insulted? I see two types of infractions. People that fish out a small canoe, three or four to a boat, and then people from a 30-foot motorboat. I tend to leave the former alone and I usually get yelled at by the latter when I remind them that these fish are illegal.
Question three. I have not seen that many bluefish in my area. Are they declining? Question four, why has no one created a number-two hook with the eyes welded on? I tie my flies and I now glue the eyes with epoxy glue. The main problem I have is the eyes get loose."
All right, so I'll tackle your questions one at a time. Question one, why did Orvis stop making one-piece rods? The main reason is that they didn't sell that well. It's a very limited market and they're difficult to make, they're difficult to ship. And, you know, guides love them, and people that live on the water love them, but there just aren't that many people that can deal with a one-piece rod. So, yes, they were wonderful rods. People that have them love them. We may bring them back someday but no plans in the near future.
So it's just a matter of supply and demand. Gearing up the rod shop to make rods and then not selling very many doesn't work that well. And we honestly have trouble making rods quickly enough and so we want to concentrate on producing the models that more people are interested in.
Question two about keeping stripers below legal size. Well, Tom, I would say that it's not your responsibility to enforce the law or remind people about the law any more than it would be if you see somebody speeding to flag them down and yell at them because they're speeding. That's not your job. And I don't think it's going to do any good to remind people because they probably know that they're keeping undersized fish and jerks are going to be jerks.
My advice to you would be, if you really want to follow up on this, you're EnCon Department, Environmental Conservation Police Officers in the State of Connecticut can enforce both state and marine laws out to the 12-mile limit. And they can actually also enforce the federal laws which are 12 to 22 miles offshore in the exclusive economic zone. So, you know, I would have that phone number handy. And if you see people keeping a lot of undersized fish, report them to EnCon. That's their job, not yours.
Question three, bluefish. Bluefish are very cyclic. They have year-class dominance. And bluefish go up and down in cycles. And they have as long as people have been keeping records. I remember looking at the Martha's Vineyard Fishing Derby, which is some of the longest records that were kept back to the 1930s of the 1940s. And there was a period in the 1940s, I remember when there were no bluefish entered in the annual fishing derby in the fall on Martha's Vineyard. And they go up and down.
I remember when I first started saltwater fishing, there were a lot of very large bluefish and no small ones. And that obviously occurs when the population is aging, and there aren't young ones to replace them. And, you know, the fish work 10, 15, 20 pounds, and they were a lot of fun. And shortly after that, those fish died out, and there weren't many bluefish around. And then they came back and then they declined again, and then they came back.
So bluefish are naturally cyclic. I think it's always been that way. And we're probably in the low point of the cycle right now. The old-timers along the Atlantic coast will tell you that when the bluefish decline, the stripers tend to increase. Now whether that's a predation issue, or whether that's a food supply issue, or whatever, I don't know. But the striper seem to be in a slight decline now as well. So maybe that theory doesn't hold so well. But bluefish do seem to be not as abundant as they used to be. So they'll go up and down. And they're probably not threatened. They're just in the part of the down cycle.
And question four, funny you should ask. There was a hook with welded eyes developed back in, I don't know, it was probably the 1980s or 1990s. And I tested some and they were the worst hooks I've ever used. They wouldn't hook a fish. It looked like such a great idea having Clouser eyes already attached to a hook, molded to hook and they were just awful. Without getting into great detail, the technical problems, and the expense of welding eyes to a decent hook is probably prohibitive.
What I would advise you to do is to use heavy thread, make sure that you're making lots of crosswinds and then lots of parallel winds or circular turns around those crosswinds underneath the eyes. Lots of YouTube videos on how to attach a Clouser minnow. If you do that right, you don't even need any glue to keep the eyes from spinning. Some glue will help too. Some super glue help but if you put your eyes on properly, they should last the life of the fly without turning.
Here's an email from Glen from Scotland. "I've been fly fishing for a couple years and love it. I'm curious about tube flies I've seen recently, such as how to tie them and how to rig them, and what you could target with them? Any thoughts on them in using them at all? Thanks for your time. Much appreciate it." Yeah, Glen, it's interesting that more people don't use tube flies because it's a great way to tie a long shank or a long-bodied, skinny fly with the hook at the rear end. And also, if something happens to the hook, it gets rusted or damaged, you can replace the hook easily and the tube is going to be intact and you can store a whole bunch of them in a box without having to worry about the hooks hooking together. I don't know why more people don't use tube flies. I use them for pike, I use it for steelhead, I use them in saltwater a lot.
You could use them for trout streamers. I just think it's a great concept. And it just really hasn't caught on that much. But I'd advise you to play around with them and use them because they're very handy. I know that before the intruder style fly with the articulated hook came out, a lot of people tie their intruders on tubes. And I still tie a lot of my intruders on tubes. And I don't have to deal with that dangling wire. And I don't have to worry about the trailing hooks sticking in other flies when I pull them out of the box.
It's a little, just a tiny bit more involved to rig them. But it's not that much more than tying on a fly. You just thread your tippet through the tube and then tie a hook on there. So I don't know why they're not more popular. But I would encourage you to use them. I think it's a great concept. And maybe it's something that will increase in popularity in the future.
Here's an email from Bev. "I'm a big fan of your Orvis fly fishing videos and just recently discovered your podcast. Although I've been fly fishing for several years, I've yet to understand how my fellow anglers can identify various hook sizes. Yes, I can tell the difference between a size eight and size 16. But when somebody says tie in a number 18 hare's ear, I can narrow it down about three hook sizes, but still can't pick that fly out of my box. It's my understanding that the size of the gap determines the size of the hook. But obviously, you can't see the gap when searching your fly box for a specific size. This leads me to believe that anglers are actually looking at the length of the fly when selecting a specific size.
I also understand that shanks come in different lengths and can make flies look larger than the gap would indicate. But I'm just really trying to understand the basics, comparing the sizes of standard dry fly or nymph hooks to each other. How can I become better at understanding hook sizes? Please help."
Well, Bev, one piece of advice I can give you is to tie your own flies. That's not an easy thing to follow. But when you tie your own flies, you will learn to eyeball the different hook sizes. But all of us get confused sometimes on hook sizes. And I know I have boxes of nymph hooks that are in compartment boxes of various sizes, and sometimes when I travel with fly tying materials, the hooks get all bunged up and go into the wrong compartments. They migrate to other compartments. And sometimes, I can't sort them out. So I have to actually pick all of them out and group them by size. And then I get a known hook size from a package of fly-tying hooks and then I can resort them, but it's not easy.
One of the things that that I've done with these hook boxes is that I'll take a hook that I know. I'll get a size 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 hook that I know are right because I've got them from the packages when I buy the hooks and I'll super glue or epoxy them to the lid of the box and label them. So then I can take a hook out and measure it against there. Yeah, it gets a little tricky when you're talking about long shank hooks and short shanks hooks. But, you know, your general dry fly and general nymph shanks, that's what you really want to worry about.
You know, when you start getting into, like, a 3x long book, or even a 2x long hook, yeah, they're going to be a little bit longer than a standard dry fly shank length. And yes, it's based on the gap of the hook. But you're right. The effective length of the fly is the most important thing. So if you're tying a dry fly on, like, a big stimulator or chubby Chernobyl or something on a 3x long hook in a size 10, you're really tying a size 8 or maybe a size 6 and a half or 7 or whatever. So it is the length.
But you should be able to eyeball those. And, you know, I would think that maybe getting some known hook sizes, and either drawing them to scale or gluing them to the lid of your fly box would be a good idea. But you'll get. It'll come. You'll be able to eyeball them eventually.
Here's an email from Matthew. "Hi, Tom. I was wondering, when is the best time to use a blood knot instead of a triple surgeon? I can tie a triple surgeon faster than a blood knot. Is a blood knot better for building a leader system? I learned to fly fish last year and tie flies and you have been a lot of help. Thanks for everything." So, Matthew, when you talk to most guides, most experienced fisherman or anglers, they'll tell you this, that they'll use a five-turn blood knot when they have time and when their hands aren't cold. And if it's getting dark or their hands are cold or they're or they're in a hurry, they'll tie a triple surgeon's.
You know, I think and most people think the five-turn blood knot is a little bit stronger than a triple surgeon's knot. There will be people that will disagree with that, but I trust it more. And I use both depending on my mood, how cold my hands are, and so on. But if I can tie a blood knot, I'll tie a blood knot.
And if you're tying your own leaders, if you're making leaders from scratch and starting with the heavy butt sections, you definitely want to use a blood knot because it's much smoother and cleaner not than the surgeon's knot. The surgeon's knot is a little bit bulkier, and it doesn't lay quite as straight as a blood knot. So for the rest of your leaders system, I would use the blood knot. For your final tippet knot, either use a triple surgeon's or blood knot, depending on your mood.
Radford: Hey, Tom. This is Radford from Greenville, South Carolina. I've been fishing with a fly rod since the summer of 2019. And currently, I live south of Richmond, which means that the closest wild trout water to me is in Shenandoah National Park. So I've been exploring a lot of the blue lines there recently. I've come up with three questions for you. The first question is I want to know how I can be sure that I'm staying off native brook trout reds? With brown trout, it's a lot easier to see where they're spawning. But with brookies, where it's dark in their holes and it's so small, it's tough to tell. I was wondering how I can make certain that I'm not impacting their spawn?
The second question, while it's a national park, I'm frequently seeking out the streams that have both brook trout and brown trout. And I'm usually fishing with a hopper dropper pattern. I catch lots of brook trout and brown trout on the hopper. But only brook trout on the nymph, usually. I'm wondering why it's so rare for me to get brown trout on the dropper. Let me know if you have any thoughts there.
And then the last question is a little bit more of a loaded question, but I'd be thrilled if you answered it. I was wondering if you, Tom Rosenbauer, could go back to 1883, would you still import brown trout? They have harmed and still harm lots of native North American trout populations. But at this point, they also have enough lure where they can serve themselves. And I was wondering, would you still have them come here if you could change it?
Tom: Well, Radford, first of all, brook trout reds are difficult to see because usually, they spawn in really clean, clear areas where there isn't a lot of algae on the rocks. The streams are usually very clean. And it's hard to see a brook trout red unless you actually see the fish on the red. Sometimes it can just be a little slightly disturbed patch of gravel. They're a lot harder to spot than brown trout reds, which are generally bigger. And generally, brown trout will spawn in areas that have a little more silt and algae on the bottom. And you can see where the rocks have been cleaned away.
So my advice, a couple things. One is, if you're really worried about it, don't fish during spawning season. Then you don't have to worry about it at all. You know, brook trout spawn in your part of the world probably late November, early December. And they don't spend that much time doing it, so it's a fairly short period of time. The other option would be to stay away from areas of fine gravel. So brook trout won't use as large of gravel size as a brown trout. So if you see an area of very fine gravel, pea-sized and smaller, and particularly if it's near some spring flow, some groundwater coming in, there's a good chance there might be a brook trout red there. So if you stay on the bigger rocks and you stay on the bank, you'll be able to stay away from the brook trout reds.
Regarding your hopper dropper, I'm not sure what's going on there. When I use a hopper dropper, usually I catch more browns on the nymph, and about 50/50 brookies on the dry and the nymph. But I don't have any thoughts. You know, the fish, sometimes different species tend to feed in different ways, in different water levels, and different water temperatures. And, you know, sometimes you go out and you may find that you catch all your brown trout on the nymph. So I don't have many thoughts there. Just use them both and see how it works.
And your final question, if I could go back to 1883, would I still stock brown trout? And I can answer that, absolutely I would still stock brown trout. If I were the king of the fish culture in 1883, I probably would be more careful about where I stocked the brown trout because they have been detrimental to some native trout populations. I don't think they're quite as detrimental as a lot of the people think. I think that it's more environmental change than it is competition from brown trout, but that's just my wild opinion.
But yeah, brown trout, you know, we wouldn't have trout fishing in a lot of parts of our country if we didn't stock brown trout, and I love them. They're my favorite fish. So I would definitely stock them. I would be a little bit more careful where I stocked him. And, you know, we all have to learn to live with introduced species. You know, we all love honey and honeybees and there are lots of introduced things that have become part of our lives and even part of our lives in the woods. I know that I have an old field next to my house that used to be pasture and it's been taken over by goldenrod and ragweed, which are native plants. And also, a great part of it's been taken over by invasive or introduced wildflower called the dame's rocket.
And dame's rocket, it's a beautiful flower. They smell wonderful. I love seeing them. And also, my 17-year-old has taught me that both the young shoot or the young leaves and the young flower buds are delicious, and we eat them a lot here in our house. And so that's an introduced species that I actually like better than the native goldenrod and the ragweed in the Joe-Pye weed that's in that field. So, you know, man has changed the environment almost everywhere you look and we're just gonna have to learn to live with and love most of these introduced species. All right. That is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Reed about planning a trip to Alaska.
So my guest today is Reed s. And Reed is a member of the Orvis Outfitter team. Now, when you call Orvis with a question about what flyrod to buy, what line should you put on your spay rod, what kind of head do you need, you don't get someone who is just there to take your order and doesn't know anything about fishing. You get a member of the outfitter team, and they are all experienced anglers. I think there's about 15 or 16 of you throughout the country, Reed.
Reed: Yeah, that sounds about right. Correct.
Tom: Yeah. And, you know, we have people like Reed on the West Coast. So not only can we cover later calls with the Outfitter team, but we can also have somebody on the phone that has experience in different fisheries than some of us on the East Coast. So they're a real bunch of pros. They're anglers, sicko anglers just like us. And they're there to help. And they're there to help you pick out gear or just answer your questions. So you don't have to send in all these podcast questions. You can just call Reed and his gang, and they'll answer all your questions for you. Especially if you need an immediate answer to a question. You know, you might have to wait for a month for me to answer a podcast question, but you can call Reed and get an answer right away. So anyway.
Reed: Absolutely. Yeah. In this day and age, we've been conditioned to think that when we call a call center or chat in or something, we're getting some call center overseas. But we've got experts spread across the U.S. that, yeah, we live, sleep, eat, breathe this stuff. So yeah, if you're looking for an answer right now, we're definitely the resource to turn to.
Tom: Yeah, I mean, you get the same kind of service that you get walking into an Orvis store or a dealer and talking to a fly shop employee. So don't be hesitant about calling with those questions.
Reed: A lot of us actually are former fishing managers in stores.
Tom: Right. Yeah, yeah.
Reed: You hit the nail on the head.
Tom: Yeah. And, Reed, tell people a little bit about your past life before you were on the Outfitter team.
Reed: Sure. I've been in the fly-fishing industry actually making a paycheck from it for about 20 years or so. It's not a big paycheck, but it's just a paycheck.
Tom: Don't we know it.
Reed: Right. I've been fortunate to, gosh, fish since I walked. It's been how I grew up. My dad fly fished, not very well. But yeah, I've had a fly rod in my hand since a teenager. And yeah, that puts me over four decades with a fly rod in my hand. And I've been lucky enough to travel a good portion of the world chasing fish and guiding in the Pacific Northwest and Alaska and Northwest New York. Good to see some coal country, catch them incredible fish, meet some wonderful people. Yeah, I've been around the block a time or three.
Tom: Yeah, that's awesome. And today, we're gonna talk about this someplace that you have a wealth of experience, Alaska. Because, you know, Alaska, if you're staying in the United States, is kind of the last frontier and it's a place where you can still go and find unspoiled fishing with native fish. And it's spectacular country. Some of the most spectacular in the world. But, you know, if you want to go to catch a particular species, you need to plan accordingly. Right?
Reed: That's correct. Yeah. When you're going to Alaska, the big thing is catching the five Pacific salmon species. And they're in the river systems throughout the course of the summer, more or less spring through, gosh, late summer, early fall is when you can find them. So depending on which one, the king salmon, the chum salmon, sockeye, pink, or silver salmon will help you determine what time of year you want to get up there.
Tom: Okay, so and of course the rainbows and the grayling.
Reed: The white rainbows and grayling, Dolly Varden are in as well that time of year. They're incredible, without a doubt. So yeah, pick your poison there. They're all pretty phenomenal.
Tom: So let's talk about the seasons and when is the best time to go for a particular fish?
Reed: Sure. We find if the system you're going to has kings in it that several of our endorsed partners in the Bristol Bay region can fish for those, that's gonna be earlier in the summer. We're looking June, mid-June through about mid-July is the prime time to target those guys. The chum salmon will be coming in as well as the same time the kings are in. Chum get a bad rap. They're also known as the dog salmon. And think they get... I mean, when we think chum, we don't think good things.
And, you know, guys, my buddies and I up there have talked about that the State of Alaska should go on a PR campaign to rename chum salmon tiger salmon, based on the striping they get. But I'll tell you what, what a phenomenal game fish. They're happy to eat a fly. They get big, yeah, well over 20 pounds. They pull like a son of a gun. And they have heart, they don't want to quit. So if you're looking for just a phenomenal game fish, that's got to be right there at the top. They might not eat as well as the other types of salmon. But I'm a catch and release guy. So I'm looking for a fight. I'm not looking for my dinner plate.
Tom: Yeah, I remember when I was in Alaska, the chums were a lot of fun. And I, you know, would target those because I thought they were, of all the...well, silvers, of course, are probably the best for a fly rod. But you know if silvers aren't in, chums are a lot of fun.
Reed: They are. Absolutely. Yeah. You can't go wrong if all you do is hook some chums in a day.
Tom: So what's next in the season?
Reed: Pinks will be in, sockeye will be in in the earlier part of the season as well. Sockeyes only show up on river systems that come out of the lake. So if the river system you're on does not have a lake at the head of it, you aren't gonna sockeye in it. You know, sockeye are tough. You know, I personally don't target sockeye because they don't eat, per se. And if you ever see footage of people on the Kenai River where you have the shoulder-to-shoulder fishing, and, you know, everybody's kind of swinging for sockeye, we're looking to snag them.
They're algae eaters. Is it algae or plankton? I'm not sure but they don't eat flies per se. And so to target them, you've got to basically floss them, trying to put a lead core line through their mouth and hooking them in the mouth. And for me, that's...you know, some people, you know, Alaska natives that are filling the freezer or the locals up there that have that ability to do that, more power to them. You know, they're fishing for sustenance. And, you know, I certainly can't fault them for that. But for me, personally, that's just that's not fun for me. So that's something, a species I choose not to target.
You will certainly pick them up as a bycatch. You know, they will eat a fly occasionally. But to target them specifically with a fly, yeah, your chances aren't good. Your odds aren't good at picking those up.
Tom: Well, what are some of the things you've done to fare hook a sockeye, to actually get them to take a fly?
Reed: Fishing for chums or pinks that are in the same time of year. They just happen to be mixed in with those other fish and they'll eat a fly for whatever reason. But yeah, you know, like I said, that flossing is certainly legal. It's allowed and that technique is used extensively throughout Alaska. It's just something that I choose not to partake in. That's just mean.
Tom: Is there a way to fish for chums without flossing them? You know, is there an angle that you can use or some sort of technique you can use so that you don't floss them so that you actually get one to take a fly?
Reed: You know, or the sockeye? You said, chum.
Tom: Sockeye, I mean. Yeah, sockeye.
Reed: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fish for the sockeye, you know, there really isn't. You can swing Dalai Lama streamers, that sort of thing. And, you know, you might get one to chase. You'll see just pods and pods of the sockeye in the rivers. You can tell when they're there. Dolly Varden actually come in with the sockeye. And so you can pick up all sorts of Dollies, fishing t for the Dollies, swinging a black and white Dali Lama. I call it a cop car. You're making an egg sucking cop car, having a bright cone on it or a bright bead, something like that. That you're trying to pick those Dollies out among the sockeye.
You will occasionally get that sockeye to chase and eat a fly. But it's...you know, gosh, if you're picking up sockeye regularly, go buy a lottery ticket because you're incredibly lucky.
Tom: If you're close to the salt and you get the sockeyes before they start turning red, are they aggressive? Will they eat fly?
Reed: You know, they still aren't just...
Tom: Because they're plankton feeders, right? So they're not...yeah.
Reed: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tom: Okay. All right. Stay away from sockeye if you don't want to floss them. How about the pinks? When do they come in? And how do you target them?
Reed: They're in about mid-season. You know, there'll be in with the latter part, the chums, they'll be in with sockeye, and then they'll be there, gosh, through to the frontend of the silvers as well. You know, the same way you target the silvers towards the end of the season. We're usually seeing silvers show up, gosh, the last week of July and in through August, end of September. Some similar river systems will have them show up through October as well. They'll all have several distinctive runs. But a pink fly that drops quick. I'm a fan of a jig headed fly.
You can tie lead dumbbell eyes or heavy dumbbell eyes into the crook of the jig hook and then sparsely tied with pink. Pink chenille, ice chenille, cactus chenille, something like that, that you're looking for the drops. When you cast out, you're going to be retrieving it with an undulating motion, kind of like [inaudible 00:50:45] and a Clouser to fish. These jigs will do the same thing. You're just stripping it back. And for the silvers anyway, it's how quick that fly drops that elicits a strike and then the color. Pink is coming in a close second. But the pinks will pick up those flies as well. You know, swinging jig, swinging a Dalai Lama, swinging streamers. That sort of thing.
So, you know, the pinks are fun, but you're they're the little kids on the block. You'll pick them up when you're up there and aren't necessarily targeting pinks per se. You'll pick them up as a bycatch. And clients will try to get...they'll wanna pick up every species they can that happened to be in the river. And depending on the time of year you go, kind of that mid, later July time period to early August, the last week in July or early August, you can find all five species in the river systems at the same time.
Tom: But you got to floss the sockeye?
Reed: You gotta floss the sockeye. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to, but...yeah.
Tom: So how about silvers? What's the key to if you... I mean, silvers are the best, right? They'll take a strip fly, they'll take a waking fly. They're very aggressive.
Reed: They will, yeah. You can have...I mean, yeah. There are plenty of them. I mean, big kings are a lot of fun. I'm a two-handed guy. I love to run Spey rods. I've been throwing those for about 20 years. And so swinging for big kings is a lot of fun for me. It requires big heavy sink tips, you know, that you're putting in some of the deeper holes and buckets you find on the rivers. Swinging your big intruder style flies, that's a kick in the pants. And they'll get big. You can still find that 35, 40-plus pound fish up there. They're far and few between. But, gosh, they're special when you find them.
With silvers, you know, silvers are a single-hand game. You can swing for him with two-handers if you like, but it really isn't necessary. A good 7 weight or 8 weight or H3Ds in 7 or 8 weight are ideal for silvers. Gosh, a couple years ago at a camp I guided that, we had some clients that they wanted to see how many silvers they could catch in a day. And they brought a little golf clicker with them. And the guy is a good buddy of mine. We've guided in several places together. And they landed 178 silvers that day. That's what they brought taking in.
Tom: How many people?
Reed: Two anglers.
Tom: A hundred and seventy-eight silvers?
Reed: Yeah.
Tom: Oh, my God.
Reed: And that's not how many they hooked. That's just how many they actually got to hand. Yeah, it's sore arms at the end of the day, sore shoulders. But yeah. Like I mentioned earlier, that pink jig fly, you're gonna find them in the softer water next to faster current. So flues or just those soft inside seams. You might cast out into that faster and retrieve back into the slower water. But they will show themselves as they're moving through. You'll see them kind of porpoising on the surface. And you might see them 100, 200 yards downstream. And then they'll work up into you.
And, gosh, you'll touch 20, 30, 50 fish over the course of an hour. And it slows down a bit. And you'll think, "Oh, we should move." And it's like, no, I look back downstream. And oh, wait. You'll see some more porpoising going on. And that's just the next fresh batch, fresh pod that's moving up through. And go grab a sandwich and a cup of coffee or soda or a beer and wait for that pod to hit you. And then have some more fun for an hour or so.
Tom: Wow.
Reed: It's pretty fun.
Tom: Yeah. So rainbows. What are the... You know, there are different methods, different times a year for rainbows, depending on when you're there in relation to the sand runs. Let's talk a little bit about catching those big Alaskan rainbows.
Reed: Sure. Well, those leopard bows you find up in those deep pods, those deep holes underneath the willows, and the alders. Gosh, for my money, you hard-pressed to find a more beautiful fish. Just where they live, and the camouflage that nature has provided for them is pretty incredible. My favorite way to catch them is with a mouse pattern, a surface pattern that you're casting that mouse in as tight to the bank, maybe even up on the bank if you can. Pull it off, and start swimming.
You know, there is a real premium on getting a good cast in. Gosh, first, maybe second cast, but after that, if you're going in there with a third or fourth cast, it's like a blender going off over that fish's head. And yeah, they aren't gonna come play. So you need to do your homework before you head up there. Salmon are much more forgiving than the trout are than the rainbows are. So make sure you can make, realistically, a 40, 50-foot cast with accuracy. Being able to turn over a big air-resistant fly. You don't need to make hero casts. You aren't casting a whole fly line. But you need a little bit of distance, like I said, about 40, 50 feet. And being able to turn over a big fly initially.
But yeah, mice patterns. Mr. Hanky is one of my favorites. I tie my own version of a hare mouse with a foam back with a trailing hook, upturned hook, as we try not to screw up their tongues and stuff. Fishing barbless, of course. We're letting those rainbows go. You can pick up those fish on the mice all of the time, swinging streamers. Gosh, the Dali Lamas, your sculpin patterns, Sculpzillas, that sort of thing, are great options.
I mean, it's kind of controversial. You and I talked about this a little bit about using beads, is incredibly effective. Some people don't consider fishing beads fly fishing. I know from personal experience, beads...
Tom: Yeah, I'm one of them.
Reed: Yeah, yeah. Being up there, it's matching the hatch. You know, the lower 48, you'll still be like this, you know, how like Alaska still is. But you get these river systems, you know, when the sockeye are spawning especially, you see just, gosh, the amount of fish and the rainbows and the Dolly Varden all lined up behind the spawning salmon. And yeah, it's kind of crazy. I've used artificial eggs, you can use gummy eggs, you can use chenille eggs, that kind of thing. But, gosh, they do not work as well as a hard, plastic egg, for whatever reason.
Yeah, I've had the debates. And there have been many an argument over a campfire and a glass of bourbon about whether you should do it or now. But there's no denying how dang effective it is. Those fish are eating the bead. You peg them away from the hook, so you aren't hooking the fish down the throat. We're doing our best not to gill them. And if you're pegging them correctly, it's incredibly rare that you do gill a fish. So I personally feel comfortable fishing that way.
Tom: You typically hook them on the outside of the mouth with peg beads, right?
Reed: Correct, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Tom: So they're going for the bead. And then you're trailing hook is just below the bead? Or is it above the bead?
Reed: The hook is below the bead. So you're tying your tippet off. Your terminal end of the tippet is tied to the hook. And then, you know, you can use a toothpick. There are silicone pegs. Call it a silicone toothpick to put in there. I like using a method where I am nail knotting, like, 20 pounds, fluorocarbon off to my tippet, so that my bead slips free. It gives it a little bit more life-like action.
But Alaska regulations stipulate that your bead has to be two inches away from your hook. And that's to keep from gilling the fish. I mean, you see those rainbows that they swallow those beads down, and it's like a little shot of Red Bull for them. And they just hit that, and now it's game on. So yeah, pretty remarkable what you can do with them.
Tom: Yeah, you see, I don't even how to do it because I don't know. If I can't tie it... I am not a purist. I'll fish mouse flies and worms flies and egg flies all day long. But it's just if I can't put it in a vise and make it on a hook.
Reed: I challenge you, Tom, that one day, give it five minutes. The next time you're in Alaska, just give it five minutes. You don't have to stick with it. But yeah, hook up with somebody who knows the program and you just might become a believer.
Tom: Oh, I know some people who do it around here on resident rainbows. But don't expect a podcast on peg beads. It ain't gonna happen. Not on this podcast, anyways.
Reed: That's fair. That's fair. That's fair. Very fair.
Tom: And, you know, I remember when I was in Alaska, you know, there are times and I expect this is when there aren't a lot of sockeyes around, that you can catch them on dry flies, like, Adams and humpies and things like that. You know, you will see hatches up there, certain rivers and you can catch them on a standard dry fly or a nymph, right?
Reed: Absolutely. I mean, the Kenai actually has some good hatches. I've got friends up there. That's kind of a little early season. You know, it can be opened early. It closes down for a bit. It doesn't open back up until mid-June. But, yeah, they get out there and they'll target the rainbows with dry flies and throw stonefly nymphs and pheasant tails, Copper Johns, and that kind of thing. So it's not that that type of fishing isn't available. It's just, gosh, you know, just like anything. When those eggs are in the river when the salmon are spawning, that is matching the hatch. There's no better way to describe. You're matching the food source that's there.
Tom: Yeah. And how about using flesh flies? You know, the salmon die, they deteriorate and trout will eat pieces of flesh. Right?
Reed: They certainly will. Yeah. I've witnessed rainbows swimming up to just piles of salmon that'll get caked up and [inaudible 01:02:15]. And you can see rainbows swimming up to that mass of meat and just taking bites out of it. It's kind of like seeing footage of a Great White taking a bite out of a whale carcass. These rainbows will do the same thing with a salmon carcass. It's pretty remarkable. But yeah, drift and big ugly, you know, using Marabou quite a bit, bunny, kind of that natural flesh-colored bunny strips, articulated.
Yeah, these rainbows know that they can just absolutely gorge themselves. Certain rivers, lower the river system, their native populations or the guiding populations will process fish just above the river and throw them into the river out in front of their cleaning stations, drying stations. And those rainbows will migrate down. They know at certain times of the year that they'll hang out in front of these places and just gorge on the flesh and the entrails and all of this of the fish. And they can get to remarkable sizes, huge, huge, huge sizes. Throwing that drifting flesh down through can be a great way to target some of those bigger fish in the river system.
Tom: And then and then how about, we haven't talked much about Dollies or Grayling? How about fishing for those? Because they're a pretty cool fish too.
Reed: They are. Graylings are, gosh, just an incredibly beautiful fish that, in my opinion, pictures don't do them justice. The colors, the iridescence that you get off of those things that just don't translate over to a picture. I'm not sure why that is but a lot of fun. And you want to talk about fishing dry flies. You know, you don't have to overthink it. A lot of times, these fish have quite literally never seen an artificial fly. So just reasonable cast, reasonable dead drifts, presentations. Don't need to overthink the flies, you know, tracker patterns. Royal wolfs, royal humpies. I'm a fan of Purple Haze, myself, you know, using Adams. Gosh, I like patriot dry fly, kind of a new age royal wolf with blue and red mylar around the body.
But yeah, any of those, you take a sampling of those and you've got Grayling covered.
Tom: What kind of water do you find Grayling in when you're there?
Reed: You know, that's gonna be your softer side channels, your local little back channels. They do like moving water but it's not that big heavy water in the main river. So you're into any or islands, or that kind of thing. Can be in water that's, gosh, as shallow as six inches deep. They'll hold in that stuff, just working their way through. You'll see them and so you can target them. It's a lot of fun. They certainly will take that dreaded bead again and that sort of thing, but if you're there and you can throw dry fly, why not?
Tom: Yeah. And what about the Sea-Run Dollies?
Reed: Dollies are a lot of fun. Absolutely beautiful. Like I said, they show up with the sockeye. Tend to move in. And then as the salmon are spawning, they'll set up shop behind the spawning salmon. Throwing streamers, swinging the Dalai Lamas. Black and white and olive and white are my favorite colors for those. And like I said, if you occasionally put a bright cone, bright bead on the front of it, do an egg sucking leech, egg sucking dolly, that can target fish.
They do tend to kick up with the rainbows as the rainbows are out looking for the eggs as well. So you can have...as you're targeting rainbows, pick up a ton of Dollies in the meantime. They're a lot of fun. And they're coming in to spawn as well. So they'll hang out for a bit and later in the season, later summer, later August, end of September, you'll start to see those real vibrant oranges and just the beautiful colors. You know, it looks like they got marked up with a highlighter. Beautiful fish.
Tom: Yeah, they are. Well, they're a char, so they look similar to a brook trout. Not quite the same.
Reed: Yeah, absolutely. White lower fins, or white bottom caudal fins. Yeah.
Tom: Now I remember when I was in the Bristol Bay region, it was a long time ago, are there both Dollies and Arctic char? Because I thought I remember catching something that people said was an Arctic char and then different fish that people said were Dollies. Are they both present? Or is that the same fish?
Reed: You know, that's a great question. My understanding is it's the same fish. But I'm sure it's up for debate. So I don't want to say one way or another. I'm sure somebody will write in or email and get a hold of me in the Outfitter department and read me the riot act. But that never happens. Yeah. If they are different fish, then they're kissing cousins. And they have a super similar lifecycle.
Tom: Okay. Okay. It's something for both of us to do some research on.
Reed: Exactly.
Tom: So don't call us the experts on Dollies versus char. Dollies are char, but Arctic char, I know on the Atlantic Coast is a different fish. And I'm not so sure in Alaska. In the Pacific Coast, if it's a different fish or it's just a Dolly. And there's no bull trout up that far. Right?
Reed: No, no, correct.
Tom: So have you ever caught a sheefish?
Reed: You know, I haven't. That's in river systems. I know people who have off the Yukon, further inland. A pretty remarkable fish, a remarkable fishery. That's something I personally have never gotten.
Tom: Yeah, it's really remote. It's a really remote area and a very specific way to fish for them. I don't know anything about it either. I just heard about them.
Reed: Yeah, exactly. Like I said, I worked for a shop that the owner used to host trips in there. And yeah, it was a trek to get in there and there wasn't much out there. So some years was better than others, but pretty cool fish.
Tom: Now, what about northern pike fishing in Alaska? That's something that, you know, doesn't get a lot of exposure but it can be awesome, right?
Reed: It can, absolutely. It's one of those, with the pike, yeah, gosh, they can mess up a fishery, you know, where they don't belong. And so, you know, I know certain places that they... Where I guided, I guided west of the Bristol Bay region. Those pike were looked down on. There were some backwater sloughs that you could occasionally see, not big ones. You know, kind of 12 to 18 inchers. Nothing huge. But any chance you got to catch them and kill them, you wanted to get them out of the system. Just because there was a real fear on what they could do to the salmon and the trout.
Tom: Are pike not native to Alaska?
Reed: On the river system I was on they weren't.
Tom: Okay. So they were introduced somehow.
Reed: Exactly. Yeah. Locals absolutely love to eat them and they dry them. And it was a delicacy for the natives that we had around us. It tasted okay. I don't that it's my favorite. But yeah, they absolutely loved it. But any chance that we got to catch them and kill them, we'd get rid of them. Other river systems where they're certainly established, oh, yeah, they'll get to some pretty remarkable sizes.
Tom: I'm curious now I don't know if they're native to Alaska, but it'd be interesting to find out.
Reed: Absolutely.
Tom: We're both showing our ignorance here on fish species.
Reed: Right? Absolutely.
Tom: I don't know. We should know better. Well, we'll do our homework, we'll do our homework. Let's see what else? We covered beads, which I was going to try to talk you out of. We covered all the species, right? I think we got them all. Oh, the one thing we should mention is that, you know, Alaska is a big country. And there's different seasons. And there are lots of lodges up there. And it can be confusing to figure out, you know, how to plan a trip to Alaska.
And we have experts, such as Reed, and also people on our Adventures Team like Hutch Hutchinson who can help you pick out a lodge in Alaska. You know, tell him what you want to do, what your goals are, and you know, what time of year you want to go, or what species you want to target. And they can help you plan that trip because it's a daunting thing. It's a big country and you can't just drive around and fish.
Reed: Yeah, that's absolutely right. With that as well, I mean, even, you know, it took me into my early 40s to visit Alaska for the first time. I'm a Pacific Northwest guy, and it's not too far away. And it was one of those that I always said I get to. When I finally got there, I can tell you, I'll be the first to admit what a fool I was. You know, Alaska is just an unbelievable place. You know, just the sheer size of it. And it's kind of hard to wrap your brain around the sheer beauty. Everything that you can experience.
So even if...you know, we have non-anglers or folks, you know, somebody wants to bring their significant other that, well, they don't want to go to Alaska and all they want to do is fish. It's like, gosh, there's just so much more to do. You can go see the bears, see the wildlife. I mean, just the scenery is unbelievable. And so, you know, all of our endorsed partners up there can cater to non-anglers as well as anglers. And, gosh, if you get the chance, it's one of those last special places on this earth, in my opinion.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. And even if you don't go to fish, you should see Alaska. Even if you have no interest in fishing. Oh, you know, I said something that I probably shouldn't have. I said you can't just drive around and fish. And there are roads to places in Alaska. But as I understand, I've never done a road trip in Alaska, the problem is that places you can drive to are super crowded because there aren't that many roads, right? So any place you could drive to is going to be pretty busy.
Reed: Exactly. And, you know, the Kenai Peninsula, you can access from Anchorage, but we have endorsed partners on the Kenai Peninsula as well. They're on the Lower Kenai River that even though it can be crowded, they can get your away from the crowds. And so that's pretty fun for a family vacation, visiting Homer. The end of the Kenai Peninsula is pretty fun. They call it a quaint little drinking village with a fishing problem. So it's my kind of town.
Tom: Yeah, there's a bunch of towns on Cape Cod they call the same thing. So it's not exactly...
Reed: Yeah. Nobody's patented that.
Tom: No, no.
Tom: Trademarked it.
Reed: It's still a good one, though.
Reed: Without a doubt.
Tom: Boy, all right. Reed, well, I want to thank you for sharing your knowledge with us today and giving us a good overview of the Alaskan experience. You know, if you have questions, call the Outfitter team. Reed and his cohorts can help you out on issues like this or on pretty much any question you may have about fly fishing. They're there to help. You guys handle chat too, right?
Reed: We do. Yeah, chat, email, and phone calls. Yeah.
Tom: Yeah. And so there's a wealth of knowledge there. Very deep, very broad, extensive knowledge. So take advantage of these men and women who have, you know, been around and are anglers too, and are there to help you.
Reed: Yeah. I did some research real quick, Tom, while we're on the call here. But northern pike is native to most of Alaska, but it does not occur naturally south and east of the Alaskan mountain range. It's been illegally stocked in south-central Alaska.
Tom: Okay. But it is native to certain parts of Alaska?
Reed: Certain parts. Yeah, exactly.
Tom: Now, did you find out if Arctic char and Dolly Varden are different fish?
Reed: Let's look that up real quick.
Tom: No, we won't do that now.
Reed: Google's a wonderful thing.
Tom: Yeah. We'll follow up. We don't wanna hold people up here on the broadcast while we Google stuff because they can do it themselves. We're not a Google machine. We're here to use our personal knowledge to help people.
Reed: There we go.
Tom: All right, Reed. Well, I want to thank you so much. We've been talking to Reed Teuscher of the Orvis Outfitter line and we're going to be talking to some other people on the Outfitter line and getting the benefit of their experience here on the podcast. So thanks again, Reed.
Reed: All right, Tom. Thank you so much for having me. It was great talking to you, sir.
Tom: All right. Talk to you soon.
Reed: All right. Bye-bye.
Tom: Bye.
Man: Thanks for listening to the Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or comment? Send it to us at