Great tips on canoe fishing with Perk Perkins
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi and welcome to the Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast. This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer, and this week we're going to be talking about canoes. I did a podcast few weeks ago, it was billed as canoes and kayaks, but we really concentrated too much on kayaks. And I got rightfully criticized for not spending enough time talking about canoes. So I promised that I would do a complete canoe podcast, how to fish from canoes, tips for fishing from canoes.
And I was scratching my head trying to think of who I should contact, and then suddenly hit me. I should have known this. Perk Perkins, who used to be my boss and was the President and CEO of Orvis, he's now retired, loves to fish from a canoe, and has a lifetime of fly fishing from a canoe. So I called Perk, since he's retired and he's got lots of time on his hands, and he agreed to do a podcast on canoes.
And there are some really good tips in here. Whether you fish a canoe in still water or moving water, I think you're going to get some really cool tips from this podcast. So apologies to those canoe anglers out there for not doing this in the past. But now, hopefully, I've corrected the situation.
Now, a couple of housekeeping things. One is that I do look at reviews on iTunes of the podcast and there aren't many fresh, it's getting a little stale there on reviews on iTunes. So they're important to us. And so, if you like the podcast, or if you don't, please leave a review. Just go into iTunes and leave a review on the podcast. It's important to us.
I want to make this podcast what you want it to be. I want to answer the questions you want answered. I want to help you demystify your fly-fishing life. So I do read those reviews and I read all the podcast email, but I also read the reviews and it does help us.
And one other housekeeping event. I get requests occasionally to guide people, and I don't guide. I'm not a good guide. I wouldn't be a good guide. I like to fish too much. But I do host trips, and I just wanted to let you know that I'm going to be hosting a number of trips over the next 12 months. And if you're interested in going on a fishing trip with me, I try to pick really cool places that have great fishing, great food, great lodging, great guides, and great ambiance.
If you want to go fishing with me, I'm going to be doing a hosted week in Idaho at Three Rivers Ranch, September 30th through October 6th, 2023. And then next year, 2024, I'm going to be doing a hosted trip to Magic Waters in Chile, February 10th through 17th. We had a hosted trip this year and we had just an amazing time there. And then the following week, I'm going to be at Cinco Rios in Chile, a similar area, February 17th through 24th. And these are both in 2024.
And then next May, May of 2024, I can't remember the exact date, but it's a ways off, I'm going to be hosting a trip in the Bahamas at Swain's Cay on Andros Island in the Bahamas. Anyways, if you're interested in fishing with me, contact Orvis Travel. Orvis Travel can give you all the information on these trips and sign you up if you're interested.
All right, now let's get into the Fly Box. And the Fly Box is where you ask questions or you share some tips with other listeners. And if your tips are good, I think they're valuable, I read them on the air. And if I think your questions are going to benefit other listeners, I also read them and try to answer them.
And you can send your questions to me at
The first one is an email from Dennis. "I recently visited a long-standing and reputable fly shop in the Los Angeles area. I think I got the bargain of the century and would like your advice on loading double taper or weight forward line. Orvis Silver Label TL, eight-foot, four-inch, three-weight, brand new. I paid $29.99." That's quite a deal, Dennis. "I will be using it for small stream fishing in Southern California, where we have pockets of wild trout. I am blessed with a retirement job with California Fish and Wildlife and tasked to survey these streams, weigh, and measure the fish.
It is typically a tight, brushy stream with overhanging branches. I thought the shorter rod at three-weight would be a good fit. In doing some research, I found two line options, double taper and weight forward. I read a few pros and cons for each line. Any thoughts on which to choose? Also, can I get this rod registered and under warranty? The store probably picked it up at an estate sale, and unfortunately, the past owner never had the chance to use it."
So, Dennis, a couple of things to think about here. One is that for the first 30, 35 feet, standard, weight forward, and double tapered lines have exactly the same taper. And since you're going to be rarely casting over probably 25 feet in those small streams, it really doesn't matter. The advantage of a weight forward line is, as you get into longer distances, it's easier to shoot line because you have a longer, thinner running line.
The advantage of double taper, again, at distance, not in those short distances, is that you can roll cast a longer line because you have a little bit more mass. And double tapers are also a little bit easier to mend, but both of these advantages are on bigger water. So decide where you're going to use the rod when you don't fish these small streams. In other words, you're going to fish a big river, is it more important for you to get distance, or is it more important for you to have a good roll cast and the ability to mend?
Now that being said, if your casts are going to be really short, like 10, 15 feet most of the time, maybe up to 20, you may consider overlining that rod with a four-weight line. The four-weight line will bring out the action of the rod at those really short distances a little bit better. And if you're in really short tight brush, I often recommend that people overline the rod. So those are some things to think about.
Now the bad news. The Orvis warranty is only viable for the original owner of the rod. So, unfortunately, you can't really register that rod and get it warrantied. It's only for the original purchaser of the rod. So apologies for that.
Jim: Hey, Tom. This is Jim from Sugar Land, Texas, where there is no equal. You, like me, are a boomer. So you remember Paul Simon's song "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover." Well, my question to you is, what are the 50 ways to break your fly rod? The first time I did it was in Los Rochas, Venezuela. I was casting a weighted Gotcha and it hit my rod tip. And sure enough, a couple of hours later the rod tip broke off.
Another time on the White River, I laid my fly rod down in the boat and while motoring away, my line got caught in the engine and the prop tore up my rod. The third time was in Port Aransas, Texas. I caught a huge 35-pound Jack Cravel. And when I was lifting it up, I took my hand off the cork, put it up on the rod and the fulcrum point caused the rod to break.
You may remember our friend Norm on the Henry's Fork in Idaho, got his fly line caught at a back cast right near a tree where you got your drone stuck. He started whipping wildly back and forth, trying to get the fly out of the tree. His rod broke.
You know, I love Orvis fly rods, and you also know all about your great warranty service for broken rods. So I'm certain the men and women who work at Orvis on replacing broken fly rods have at least 50 ways to break your rod.
You've mentioned it a couple of times on your podcast you've broken a fly rod. So my question is maybe not 50, but, Tom, what are the most common ways folk break their fly rods?
Tom: Well, Jim, you probably hit the more important ones. Fly rods are meant to cast long distances or short distances, and they're meant to play fish, and they're very strong in that situation. However, they are hollow tubes, and they can be crushed. Now, that being said, the newer rods, particularly the Helios 3, are so much stronger than rods of previous generations. The rod designers have done an amazing job in retaining the lightness and the flexibility and the action of these rods while strengthening the outer tube of the rod.
The Helios 3s are amazing. I recently was fishing in Denver, and we were doing some demonstrations, and we were driving from one spot to the other, and we were also doing a little carp fishing in Downtown Denver. And I had a rod in the car. And I stupidly just laid it in the back. No rod tube. I wasn't even careful about where I put it. And we had a folding table with us that we were using for when we did our presentations in stores and dealers.
And the folding table fell flat on top of the rod. I mean, just totally hit it very hard. It was a big thump. And when we stopped the car and pulled the table off the rod, I said, oh, boy, this thing is probably going to be toast. And I flexed the rod, seemed to be okay. Put some pressure on it, seemed to be okay. Then proceeded to catch a fairly good-sized carp in really heavy water. The rod didn't break, it hadn't been fractured.
And then I fished the rod for the rest of the season and fished it for 10 days in Chile, and then fished it for another week in Chile afterwards. And the rod still hasn't broken. So I'm really amazed at how strong the current models of rods are. But again, they are a hollow tube, and they can fracture.
So, Jim, you've picked some good ones. Other ones are falling on a rod, ceiling fans, screen doors. We've had rods returned because they were used to defend an angler from grizzly bears and rattlesnakes and things like that. But it's mostly just the things that you've described. Plus, screen doors and ceiling fans are the main ways rods are broken. I don't think I'm gonna list 50 of them. The rod repair department could probably list 50 of them, but I think people don't want to sit here and listen to all of those.
Here's an email from George. "A couple questions, first, the easy one. Obviously, a dry dropper rig is an important tool that you mention often on the podcast. And I believe you have said one way of setting up this rig is to tie the dropper fly to the bend in the hook of the point fly. You also frequently mention the importance of using barbless hooks. My question, won't the dropper fly just slip off the barbless hook? Is there a special knot to use when tying the nymph onto the point fly? What am I missing?
Second question. My home fishing area is coastal southern Maine, where I'm blessed to be able to fly fish for both trout and stripers within a short drive. For trout, I am mostly fishing small to medium streams. For stripers, I am mostly fishing the tidal rivers and estuaries. For trout, I have a nine-foot five-weight with a floating line. For stripers, I have a fast-action nine-and-a-half-foot nine-weight. On the nine-weight, I use an intermediate line for most purposes, but occasionally use a sink tip when dragging crab flies.
As I'm getting up in years, I've developed severe arthritis in my right casting shoulder. It is nearly useless. While I'm not the greatest at casting, I think I have the basics down pretty well. What I need now is to get the most out of my rod-line combination so as to minimize any strength needed from my shoulder because there isn't any.
For trout, the rivers I fish are not big and they have a lot of brushy banks, so roll casting is a must. Sometimes longer distance is required too. Would I be better going to a smaller setup like a seven-foot three-weight or a four-weight? Should I just overline my five-weight?
For stripers, I do need the distance and have to fight the wind. Should I go to a more flexible rod? Should I overline it? A different type of head? Have you ever heard of people developing their opposite hand casting skills to the point where that would be a better solution? Should I just try to minimize shoulder involvement in my casting stroke?"
Well, George the easy one, yeah, sometimes with barbless dry fly hooks, I've had the dropper slip off. It doesn't happen that often and I generally just deal with it. It's pretty rare for it to slip off, but it can happen. So if you're worried about that, what you want to do is just tie your nymph to the eye of the dry fly instead of the bend of the dry fly, and that works pretty well. It doesn't seem like it would, but it seems to work just as well. So you can do it that way, try it that way, and it should work out well for you.
Now, as to your second question, I don't know how much less stress on your shoulder you're going to get by using a shorter, lighter rod. I mean, you're talking fractions of an ounce difference between seven-and-a-half-foot or eight-foot and a nine-foot rod. So I don't think you're going to gain much by going to a shorter rod. And actually, shorter rods are a little bit hard to cast.
So if the nine-foot five-weight works for you, I would stick with it and just try to minimize the amount of shoulder involvement. And it's tough because to properly cast a fly, you do have to rotate around your shoulder. It's the way fly casting works. It's best practice.
But, you know, especially for smaller streams, you can use more wrist and more forearm and less shoulder. It'll work for you. It'll work okay. And if your wrist is okay and your forearm and your elbow are okay, then yeah, just try to pivot more around your elbow. Use your wrist a little bit more. I know people tell you not to use your wrist, but it'll work just fine, particularly on a shorter cast. So try that.
For the striper situation, the one thing that you might try that people with shoulder problems seem to find beneficial is to use a two-handed rod. In this case, you're not having to false cast as much, you're not having as much shoulder involvement. And a two-handed rod, like a spare rod or a switch rod or just a general two-handed rod, you'll be able to get the fly out there a long distance with either a Skagit or a Scandi head, and you won't have as much shoulder involvement in your cast. So I would really look into using a two-handed rod for your saltwater fishing. I think that's going to help.
And yes, there are people who have switched shoulders or switched arms to cast. It's almost like learning to cast all over again. But if you have relatively good hand-eye coordination, you should be able to do it. I've been thinking of doing that myself because I am starting to develop a few problems in my right arm. But again, it's a lot of work and a lot of practice.
And I think you'll find that you can cast pretty easily with your off-hand, but manipulating the line with your other hand actually takes longer to develop that muscle memory. So give it a try in the yard, see how it works, and maybe try a two-handed rod. I hope those suggestions help.
Steve: Hey, Tom, this is Steve in Washington, D.C. I've just finished listening to your podcast discussion with Dom Swentosky about the Mono Rig, and I want to ask if you could add your two or three or four cents about rods that could make those Mono Rigs and the wonders of them, which Dom regaled us, with really work.
I have done some of this fishing with Mono Rig, straight line fishing, Euro nymphing, call it what you will, both on my own and with a guide. And my mixed results have left me with the resolution that I want to make sure and get the tool right. Because I certainly have had a lot more fun and success when I had, for example, a ten-foot three-weight that was purpose built for casting a Mono Rig than I did when I rigged up my nine-foot five-weight Tip Flex Helios, which was not so successful.
Remarkably, in an hour of your discussion with him, I didn't hear a word about rods. And I wonder if we could hear your words, anyway, about rods that make those Mono Rigs fun or at least feasible to cast and be effective with. Thanks very much.
Tom: Well, Steve, regardless of whether you're using a Mono Rig or Euro nymphing, using Mono as your casting line, you're not going to get as much rod flexibility. You're not going to build up the energy without a really soft tip. You just can't force it. The rod needs to bend in order to help that whole arrangement get out there.
And so, with a Mono Rig, you really need a longer rod with a flexible tip. I typically use an 11-foot three-weight Helios 3 Blackout rod for the Mono Rig. But a 10-foot three-weight will work and even a 10-foot four-weight. A 10-foot four-weight rod doesn't have quite as flexible of a tip as those three-weights, but it does give you the longer length and it's a little bit more flexible than say, certainly, more flexible than nine-foot five-weight.
And it's more versatile. You can use that for regular fly casting with a fly line a lot easier, I think. And distance is a lot better. So you may want to look into a 10-foot four-weight.
This one's from Brian. "I recently discovered your podcast. Wow. It is amazing. I do have a problem, though. I will usually put a podcast on, of some sort, as I enter into hopefully an evening of restful slumber. Unfortunately, but fortunately, once I put your podcast on, I simply cannot stop listening to it. I find myself scribbling down notes in the wee hours of the night. Thanks for the bags under my eyes.
My question is, are tippet rings useful? Do they actually make tying on a dropper less fussy? Is the ring itself a distraction to hungry trout?"
So, Brian. Yeah, tippet rings are useful, so are knots. But tippet rings are useful if you don't like tying other knots. Now, if you're using a tippet ring to tie a dropper on, which is a viable solution, you do have to tie three knots, because you have to tie a tippet ring to the rest of your leader, you have to tie the dropper to your tippet ring, and then you have to tie the lower fly to the tippet ring. So you got to tie three knots.
If you put a surgeon's knot in your tippet to add a dropper, you only have to tie one additional knot in your leader. Of course, you have to tie the flies on, too. And but tippet rings do work quite well. I don't think they're a distraction to hungry trout. I've never seen an issue where the fish strike a tippet ring or seem to shy away from a tippet ring. They're so small and they're not really shiny.
The one thing I'd advise you on tippet rings is don't buy cheap ones. Don't buy the really cheap ones. Get them from a fly shop because people will buy those online where they get a whole bunch of them really cheap, and they're not polished well enough and they can abrade the tippet and your knots won't hold because they're not polished enough.
So just get them in a fly shop or get them from a reputable fly fishing manufacturer to make sure that they're not going to weaken your knots.
Here's an email from Paul. "I would like to hear your opinion on attractor patterns. I just recently sat through a presentation on the subject at an outdoor show in Chilliwack, B.C. by a well-known fly-fishing educator, guide, fly designer, author, video producer, and brand ambassador. I'm 72 and have been fly fishing for decades, and I've heard some references to the patterns. Most of what I have heard seemed to be fodder for Thanksgiving dinner family arguments.
Until I sat in on the attractor fly pattern presentation, I had only heard of the booby and the blob. The other patterns I was introduced to were roll mops and FABs, in other words, foam arse blobs. What are your thoughts on these patterns? Are they mainly developed for fishing competitions?
Personally, if the fish aren't taking my imitation patterns and beating the stink out of me, I'll just take it as a day of slow fishing, and will make the good days even more gooder."
So, Paul, you're asking in my opinion, and only my opinion, here's my opinion. With the exception of big, colorful streamer flies, I don't think any of our dry flies or nymphs are really attractor patterns. I don't like that term because the fish are eating your dry fly or a nymph, not because it's attractive, not because they're angry at it, not because they're curious. They eat it because they think it's food.
And what looks like an attractor pattern to us looks like food to the fish. So I think everything is imitative. And we can't be so arrogant that we assume that fish take our attractor patterns for something else. We don't know what the fish thinks our fly is. And if they put it in their mouth, they think it's food, and so it's an imitator.
And what it imitates, we may not know. We may not know, but it's something that looks buggy and looks like food to the fish. And I don't really classify flies as attractors or imitators. I pick my flies based on lots and lots and lots of things. But when I put on, say, a chubby Chernobyl or another big foam-bodied fly, I believe that the fish take it because they think it's something that they've eaten recently. What that is, I don't know.
Here's an email from Mark in Farmington, New Mexico. "It seems like I'm seeing more and more about tying materials and UV resins that glow in the dark or are shown in videos of what they look like under a UV light. I can't help but think this is more of an enticement for the fly fisherman and fly tyer. Or do fish have the ability to see different spectrums?"
Well, Mark, that's a really interesting question, and it's controversial. But what I have learned, and one of the best sources for information on trout senses in general, you know, what they see, what they feel, what they hear, what they smell, is a book called "Trout Sense" by Jason Randall. A really good book if you're really geeky about trout behavior. And in that, he's done e a lot of research and talked to a lot of scientists.
And here's the situation as he sees it, and it makes total sense to me. Young trout feed on zooplankton and zooplankton is very difficult to see. It's translucent. And they need all the contrast enhancement they can get to be able to see these little, tiny things in the water. And young fish have a number of UV cones in their eye that helps them see this UV light and helps them see these tiny kind of translucent prey.
However, once they get older, once they get to be about, I don't know, I think four or five inches long, those UV-sensitive cones transform to blue sensitive cones. And it's thought that trout can see a little bit of UV as they get older, but most scientists think they don't use it at all. And when you think about it, UV light is just another color, right? It's just another band in the spectrum. It's not anything magical.
And we don't really know why trout take flies. We don't know what attracts them. We don't know what they develop a search image for. And so, I personally don't believe that UV-sensitive materials are anything to worry about. I think that people will come back and say, "Oh, God, I used this UV dubbing and it really worked well," well, it's probably just a good dubbing. It's probably just a good dubbing in general. It has the right color, has the right translucency, has the right shade, whatever.
So I wouldn't worry too much about UV-sensitive stuff. If you want to try it, go ahead, and try it. But I don't know if it's worth paying extra money for fly-tying materials that are UV sensitive.
Here's an email from Nicholas from Sweden. "Thank you for a wonderful podcast. I really enjoyed the recent episode on midges and for your many books. I just reread your guide to hatch-matching strategies in preparation for the season. And it's just terrific. A gift that keeps on giving.
I have one question for you today regarding leaders. Personally, I've never had an issue with loop-to-loop connections. But recently, the welded loop on my four-weight line got damaged to the core, so I figured I'd try a needle nail knot.
My question is regarding the diameter of mono to be used. I'd like to try something like a Harvey leader or the Spanish-style dry fly leaders that many competition anglers use for dry fly fishing. And those call for something like 20-pound Maxima Chameleon for the butt. I sometimes do fish bigger terrestrials and mayflies, size eight to 10. Not often, though.
And where I live in Sweden, the wind is always a big factor. Both of these factors seem to call for a slightly thicker butt section than the 17-thousandths of 20-pound Maxima Chameleon. Is it possible to attach a foot or so of something thicker and then attaching different diameters as the situation demands? Or that will negatively impact the fine Harvey-style leader? What diameter butt would you recommend on a four-weight for larger dries casting into the wind?
I know that a four-weight isn't optimal for larger flies, but I don't need them that often here. But when I do, I really do. Am I overthinking this? Is 20-pound Maxima Chameleon just fine for these situations?"
Well, Nicholas, I don't think it's going to make a big deal, but if you're gonna be using stiffer leaders, at times, with a bigger diameter, you do want to have a little bit stiffer connector. And my advice to you is exactly what you suggested. Use something around 20-thousandths, 21-thousandths of an inch and just tie on, say, six inches of that. That's plenty.
And you want to match the diameter of your fly line as best you can. You want to actually match the flexibility of your fly line. So flex a piece of heavy monofilament and then flex your fly line and see where those flexibilities match. So then it's going to be more or less a continuation of your fly line.
So, yeah, I think I would go with a bigger piece. I would go with something a little bit more than 17-thousandths for that permanent loop that you put on the end of your fly line. So I hope that's helpful.
Here is an email from Mono [SP] from Worcester, and he's in Massachusetts. And although it's not spelled like that, it that's the way they say it, Woosta. "Hi, Tom. I bought an Orvis Pro depth Charge 250 grain line for my eight-weight. Looking to fish for lake trout in deep reservoir waters this April, as well as stripers in estuaries come May.
The package says cold to moderate temperatures. Do you know what that range is? Would I be able to get away with using this line also in the summer for largemouth? I'm from Worcester, Mass and love the podcast. Just got into fly fishing last year."
So, Mono, yeah, you'll be fine fishing that line for both of those situations. Where that line might become a problem is where you get into your 90 to 95-degree temperatures, and that usually happens in the tropics on a boat deck. A line like that, which is made for moderate to cold water, can get a little sticky when it gets super, super, super hot. But even though it gets pretty warm in Worcester in the summertime, I don't think you're going to have a problem with that line getting sticky in that situation. So you're going to be just fine with that line.
The only time you really need a tropical or warm water line is when you're in a tropical situation where it's really hot and it's mainly not water temperature. It's handling that line on the deck of the boat.
Here's an email from Wiley. "I have a few questions about fly tying. The first one is that I often see pictures of flies online that look very symmetrical in every aspect from dubbing, wrap to hackle. I was curious if these perfect flies are more effective or just really for looks.
My second question is what is your opinion of roadkill fly-tying materials and if they could be of any use?"
So, Wiley, we're trying to imitate stuff that fish eat, and nearly everything that I can think of that a fish eats, whether it's a bass or a trout or a striper or a bonefish or a tarpon, those things have bilateral symmetry. So we try to make our flies look symmetrical just because we're trying to imitate food.
Now, sometimes, flies aren't symmetric metrical, natural flies, sometimes they get bunged up when they're hatching, or they fall over and flop down on the water. But for the most part, we're trying to imitate something in nature, so we try to make it symmetrical. And I think proportions are important. Both symmetry and proportions, we're trying to create a silhouette or an outline of something in nature, and most of those have specific proportions and they have symmetry.
So, yeah, I think it's important. Not that a sloppy fly won't work. Sloppy flies or flies that are tied "incorrectly" will sometimes work pretty well. But we try to make them as symmetrical as we can.
Roadkill materials are great. You have to be careful. You have to be careful of state laws because it's illegal in certain states to pick up roadkill and take it home. And especially wild birds, songbirds and things like that, it's not legal to pick those things up.
But if it's an unprotected species check your state laws. If it's an unprotected species and you see something alongside of the road, generally, I just take tails and feathers from things like starlings that are not protected. But you got to be careful of how long that roadkill has been sitting there. And you got to be pretty good with your skinning and preserving skills on certain things. But just cutting a tail off a squirrel or something like that works quite well, and I've been known to do it.
Here's an email from Jim. "Hey, Tom, thanks for all the time and love you put into this podcast. I've got a question about flies that aren't really flies. Outside of sight fishing for redfish in the Pamlico Sound, one of the most exciting times of the year in Eastern North Carolina is the annual shad run when our anadromous friends, the hickory shad, make their way up the river systems to spawn.
Like many anadromous fish, they aren't very interested in actually eating during the run, so the only way to get a bite is to trigger their protective instinct and get a reaction strike. The common spin fishing terminal tackle used by most anglers is a weighted jig shad dart with a small metal spoon on a 12-inch dropper below the dart.
My buddy and I were fishing for them last week and we were using a fly fishing version of the same rig with a weighted shad puff fly and a UV-resin spoon dropper. The spoon is actually a fly that I tie using krystal flash tail and then creating the body out of UV resin with a light wire frame and copious amounts of glitter stolen from my daughter's craft supplies.
We hooked up with and landed several beautiful shad with this rig. But after sharing some photos, I was roundly chastised by some other fly anglers about how this wasn't really a fly, and I wasn't fly fishing.
Gatekeeping aside, it brought up a larger conversation at where we draw the line as to what's a fly and what is not. Sure, the UV-resin spoon doesn't imitate an insect, but spoons are arguably some of the most basic bait fish patterns I can think of. Maybe I should try smaller salmon patterns. While we also spin fish for shad, which is certainly easier and cheaper, our goal was to target them on fly gear, and this seemed like a viable solution. What's your take on flies that aren't really flies?"
So you're asking for my take, right, Jim? Okay, so here's my take. If I can put it in a vice and tie it, then I consider it a fly, and I consider it fly fishing. And the thing that you made takes a fair amount of skill, and you're crafting it, you're creating it. And lots of things that we use for fly fishing don't imitate flies. What's the difference between that and a crazy streamer pattern that doesn't look like a fly? I don't think there's any difference. And in my opinion, yeah, you're fly fishing, and it's a fly.
Your first mistake, your only mistake was to share the fly on social media. So you decide what's a fly, you decide what's fly fishing. It's up to you, as long as it's legal. Now, there are some places where things like squirmy worms and weighted flies, for that matter, are illegal. So you got to check your regulations. But as long as it's legal and you think it's a fly, then it's a fly.
And don't worry about what someone else tells you, because you're out there to have fun. And if you're having fun, why worry about what somebody else thinks about what you got on the end of your line?
Gilbert: Hey, Tom. This is Gilbert in Upstate New York. I'm at my fly-tying bench and thinking about tying up some March Brown flies. And got my super-fine dubbing here that's identified as March Brown. And unsurprisingly, it is brown. I also have a variety pack of rabbit dubbing, and one of the sections is denoted as March Brown, but it's nowhere near brown. It is, like, a very light, light tan, almost white with a pink cast to it. So, question, what's going on here? Are there different colors for male and female March Brown mayflies? Or are there a couple of different species that are getting lumped together and called March Browns? Does the color difference make a difference? Does it drive selectivity in trout? Good thing to know when encountering a March Brown hatch.
Also, are there other mayflies that exhibit this difference between maybe male and female, or are other species get mixed up and called one thing, like the Hendricksons, for example? Now, tying these up, I have a lot of options. Why would I use a Sparkle Dun instead of a Comparadun or parachute style or an Adirondack style? Does any of that make any difference? What would be the motivation behind choosing one form or the other? Anyway, any light you can shed would be great. Thanks, Tom. Have a good day.
Tom: So, Gilbert, yeah, this can be a little squirrely. No pun intended. There are a number of things that come into play here. One is that flies in different rivers, based on water chemistry, can be different shades of color. It can be actually different colors altogether, depending on the water chemistry and probably the diet of the insect when it was a larva.
So, for instance, a Hendrickson mayfly, which is common, common mayfly in the Eastern United States, hatches in almost every trout stream. They can be anywhere from a pinkish-tan to an olivey-tan. And the males and the females have a little bit different coloration. The females are darker and more reddish.
Generally, what I do is I try to kind of split the difference and tie my Hendricksons with kind of a tan and with a little pink and a little olive in it. I'm not so sure the exact color is that important anyway. But flies do vary, and even the March Browns can vary.
Now, as far as that March Brown you were tying, March Brown mayflies have kind of a creamy belly, but they're a little bit darker on top. They have a darker shade on top. And so, some people believe that you want to imitate the back of the fly, although the fish see the belly of the natural mayfly easier and more often than they see the back of the mayfly. So there may be a different interpretation of that.
And also, people who make these premade dubbings, they're using their eye and their idea of what a March Brown color is. And that's not always what you might think of when you're tying the fly.
So there's a couple of ways to handle this. One is to just tie it the way you think it should be tied and use the color that you think looks right. And if you fish the same river a lot and you see a lot of March Brown flies, pick one up and see what color your March Brown is. And then don't use a premixed dubbing but mix your own dubbing. Buy a dubbing assortment and mix colors to get one that is close to those March Browns that you see.
If you're not fishing the same water regularly, then get an idea of what a March Brown looks like to your eye. Go on the web and look at something, like, there's a great website called troutnut.com that has lots and lots and lots of pictures of aquatic insects. A really good site. And you can see what some of these flies look like. But again, mix your own dubbing.
The other option would be to just tie a few with the dark brown and tie a few with the light tan and see which works better. So the color of an aquatic insect, it's questionable how important that is. Some people think it's super important. Some people think that you just need to be in the ballpark and get the shade right. So you need to kind of develop your own philosophy of how important color is.
Regarding the different styles of flies, I would have both types. I would have a hackled-style fly. For hatches that you see a lot, I would have a hackled-style fly. I would have a couple of non-hackled-styled or maybe a parachute. So, for instance, for the March Brown, I probably want to have some kind of a merger fly, and I definitely want to have a Sparkle Dun, because I always love Sparkle Duns. And that fly does not use hackle. And maybe a Comparadun. And then I might also have a standard hackled March Brown.
Different water types, fish seem to prefer a different interpretation of the fly. Usually, we use the hackled-style flies on faster water, riffled water, broken water, because the fish don't get as good a look at it, and we can sometimes see it better. And the flies are fluttering often, and the hackle kind of imitates the fluttering. Whereas on flat water, you want a little bit more of a cleaner profile because the fish get a better look at your fly.
Although I have used hackled flies on flat water with success, and I've also used the non-hackled cleaner flies on heavy water with success. So I would just have a few interpretations of those mayflies that you see often and give them a try. It's always trial and error. Give them a try and see which type works better for you.
All right, that's the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Perk Perkins with some great tips on canoe fishing. So my guest today is Perk Perkins. And Perk and I have had a pretty long history together. Perk was my boss for many years. Perk is now sort of retired, mostly retired, right? You're still Chairman of the Board of Orvis.
Perk: No, I've even retired from that. I'm a board member.
Tom: You're only a board member. You're not even chairman of the board.
Perk: Yeah. I've been calling myself fully retired for about four years now.
Tom: Wow. I should know that you're not chairman of the board anymore. Boy.
Perk: That makes you less in trouble, I guess, right?
Tom: Yeah, I better keep up with my Orvis politics. Anyway, you're still involved, sort of, in the company as an advisor. And I've always known you as a superb angler, one of the best. And I'm not trying to make any brownie points here. You're just really good, and you're really technical.
The only beef I have with you is the time that I was stalking this large brown trout on the Batten Kill. And I had been stalking him for a couple of weeks, and he finally started coming up really good during a Hendrickson spinner fall, one night. And I heard this clunk, clunk, clunk around the corner, and there came you and your brother sliding by in your canoes. And it was all over.
Perk: Oh, God. I don't think you ever told me that but now I know.
Tom: Oh, I think I did. I certainly told you that night. Anyway, you do a lot of fishing from a canoe, on both still water and river, and all your life you've really canoe fished. More than anyone I know. And so, I did a podcast on canoes and kayaks, but it ended up being mostly a kayak podcast.
So I got some feedback from some podcast listeners that said, "Hey, come on, you didn't do enough on canoes," so here you are to give us your tips on fishing from a canoe.
Perk: Great. I'm glad too. And just a big nod to my dad because I picked it up from my father who always fished out of a canoe.
Tom: Yeah.
Perk: And he had this wonderful tradition when he was living and working in Vermont. And it was almost every single night of the summer, he would come home from work, he'd make himself a drink. He'd grab his fly rod and he'd walk across the horse pasture to the Batten Kill where he had a canoe tied to a basswood tree. And then he'd get in there and he'd just slowly work his way up that section of the Batten Kill that you know.
And he'd do it every night. He'd come back and it'd be dark when he got home. And so, I learned a lot from him in terms of just the little things you can do to make canoe fishing more effective.
Anyway, I guess I'd start out by saying that I use a canoe primarily for access, and I have to almost discipline myself to get out of the canoe where it's legal. Because out here, like in Wyoming, they don't own the river bottom, so you can't get out of the canoe. But in Idaho and Montana, you can.
But the wonderful thing about a canoe is that you don't have a trailer and you can get to sections of rivers and lakes that a lot of other people can't get to, especially the people who with trailers and drift boats and they need a launch and need a takeout.
But you can slide a canoe down a hill, down a riverbank, walk it across the field. So it's a wonderful way to access. They're not the greatest things to actually fish out of, but I'm going to talk about some things that make them a lot easier to fish out of.
Tom: Yeah, please do.
Perk: Primarily, they're just a great way to get to water that doesn't get fished as much. You can put in at, you know, where a lot of people take out, and you can canoe upstream and get to water that no one's going to get to for four or five hours that day. So that's...
And then, other than...different than a kayak is they're much better for carrying cargo. You can throw your lunch in there. I always take my Labrador. He's nice and quiet and sedate, so he comes with me. So you can just take more gear, too, which makes it nice.
Tom: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Perk: Want to hear a little bit more about some of the techniques?
Tom: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What do you do to mitigate things like where to put your paddle and the fact that you're low in the water and casting and line handling and all those things?
Perk: Yeah, well, it varies a lot whether you're by yourself or with another person. So if you're with another person, really, you're the propeller, basically, in that case. And in canoes because you're confined in the canoe, and you can't move around like you can in the seat in a drift boat, I've found that the best thing to do is to drop down below the area that you want to fish and then fish upstream to it.
A lot of times we'll drop an anchor across, broadside to a rising fish. But then you're twisted in your seat and they're not that comfortable, and they're kind of confining. And it's not comfortable and you're not as accurate. And I've just found that better off to actually go past. If you're going downstream, which you usually are, and you have an area you want to fish or you have a rising fish, drop down below it, and then just slip up behind it, paddling upstream.
And if you can get out of the water, get out of the canoe and wade fish to it. That's the best thing. But if for any reason, the depth or land regulations don't allow you to do that, slip up.
And then I want to talk about the anchor system. With the anchor, you want an outrigger that sticks out past the end of the canoe, the bow, or the stern. You want to stick out there so when you're paddling, that anchor isn't bunking, because that'll make a lot of noise and will disturb the fish.
So there's a system, I think it's called Scott Canoe anchor. You can find it on the internet. And he makes something that is adjustable, and you can clamp it into the bow of your canoe or the stern, if you've yourself reversed in the canoe. And it sticks out about a foot, 16 inches past the bow and your anchor hangs off of that. And then there's a cleat system on it so that when you're in the stern of the canoe, you got a rope, and it goes up through this thing and there's a little cleat system. And it automatically releases. You can drop the anchor down and it locks in place.
So that's my go-to when I'm fishing by myself, especially, is I'll drop down below the rising fish, slip up behind it, ease the anchor down, and then fish it from that approach. So casting pretty much over the top of the fish.
Tom: And that device would be just as useful in a lake, right, as long as the water isn't too deep?
Perk: It is. Yeah.
Tom: Okay.
Perk: And it's a clamp system, so you can move it from bow to stern. Because when I'm canoeing by myself, I'm canoeing from the bow seat so that the canoe isn't as stern-heavy, the bow isn't sticking up as high. So bow seat is mounted typically more midship than the stern seat is. The nice thing about that Scott system is that you can move it from the bow to the stern in probably five minutes.
So if you're canoeing with another person, you have it mounted in the bow, and then if you're canoeing by yourself, you're probably going to sit in the bow seat and mount it off the stern.
Tom: Okay.
Perk: Did you follow that?
Tom: I did follow it, yeah. Okay.
Perk: Yeah. The other thing about when you're fishing by yourself, it's a little more challenging, because even when you've reversed and you're sitting in the bow, the other end of the canoe is still going to be sticking up in the air. And if you got much wind, that just plays hell with your control because they're so light and the wind grabs them, and you don't need much of a wind to just make it really difficult.
So I like to put some ballast in the front of the canoe. In my case, I got my Labrador and I put a dog nest up there and that works. But also, any other weight and gear that I can put up there helps a lot. Because it can be really maddening if you get a pretty good wind and your bow or your other end of the canoe, the bow end of the canoe is sitting up, the wind just can grab it and spin you around pretty quickly.
Tom: And I imagine in a lake, if that bough is up too high, it would give you more slap against the canoe, probably. It would make more noise, wouldn't it?
Perk: Yeah, it does. And then speaking of lakes, one thing I learned when I was living in England and we didn't fish out of canoes there, but we fished out of rowboats, and they introduced me to the sea anchor or the drogue. And if you're fishing in a canoe in a lake here, a sea anchor, which if your listeners haven't seen one or heard of it before, it's basically an umbrella-type device that you drop in the water. And so, when the wind is blowing you downwind, you have that overboard, you go very slowly and it allows you to fish at a very comfortable pace and cover a lot of water.
So I employed that when I lived out in Washington State. East of the Sierras, there's some great still-water lakes for trout that are very windy. And so you just set yourself up where the wind would blow you parallel to the shore and drop the sea anchor out, and you just kind of cruise at a really nice pace and it enables you to fish a lot of water at a pace and you don't have to be picking up your paddle and correcting your drift.
I don't know if you ever used one of those, Tom, or seen them used.
Tom: I have used them in salt water from small boats, flats boats, and smaller boats. Never used one in a lake, though. And I really should. I just wrote it down. I really should invest in one.
Perk: Yeah, they're easy to find, too. Just google sea anchor or drogue is the other term for them.
Tom: Drogue, yeah, I think a lot of people call them drogues. Yeah. So that's a great tip. One I hadn't thought of.
Perk: Yeah. One other device that you can't buy but it's pretty easy to make and this is if you're going to be carrying...you know, another advantage of canoes, they're light, you can carry them pretty comfortably some pretty long distances. But one thing that makes it a lot easier again, this is something that I built when I was fishing those lakes on the east side of the Cascades out in Washington where it's really windy, is on eBay or something, buy an old pack frame. The external pack frame, the old Keltys, camp trail.
And then you don't need the bag on it, to the top of that, you just bolt, like, an L-bracket. Actually, two L-brackets, so it makes a U. And then your center thwart of your canoe will sit in that. And then with the waist strap on those packs, you can carry so much more weight so comfortably, so all the weight is being borne by the pack on your waist. And it really makes carrying a canoe a long distance a lot easier.
Tom: Interesting.
Perk: Yeah, I just made another one a couple of years ago. And I found I think it was an old Kelty pack frame that I found on eBay and a couple of those angle irons that you buy at the hardware store, and it was done.
Tom: So you just put it over your head, on your shoulders, and off you go.
Perk: Yeah. Yeah. And you're not carrying it on your shoulders. You're carrying it on your waist, so it's so much easier here.
Tom: Yeah, yeah, that's a really good tip. How about casting and line handling because you're generally sitting down in a canoe, you're low to the water? Any tips you have for making casts and for handling your line, keeping it from getting tangled and stuff?
Perk: Yeah, well, recalling that, at least in a river, I'm going to usually be fishing upstream and whenever possible, to a targeted fish. So I'm not...usually, I've got a fairly short amount of line that I'm having to manage off the reel.
Tom: Yeah.
Perk: I use a large plastic container and that's what I kind of keep my gear in and I keep that in front of me in the canoe. And in that, I've got fly boxes and mosquito spray and all those things. And I find that makes a really good device for a number of things. It's great for carrying your gear in, but it's also a nice sort of work surface and you can use it as sort of a line tray, too. You can have your strip line laying on top of that rather than under your feet. And makes a nice little table when you break out your lunch. So I use that. And that helps quite a bit for line management.
Tom: So it's, like, a big square plastic tub or something with a top?
Perk: Yeah. The one I have is probably about 22, 24 inches wide by another 16, 18 inches deep. And then deep, meaning up-down, it's probably 12, 14 inches. So it carries quite a bit of gear and it works as a nice work surface. When you net your fish, and especially if you're by yourself, there's a lot going on. You can rest that mesh bag on top of it and lets you unhook the fish a lot quicker.
The nets are a really critical thing fishing out of a canoe. If you're not getting out of the canoe to land the fish or getting out of the canoe to actually do your casting, you absolutely need a net and a longer-handled one so you can reach the fish without leaning way overboard.
Tom: Yeah, yeah. The new Orvis long-handled net would be perfect.
Perk: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great design. It's amazing how they have adopted the sort of tennis racket technology. They're beautiful.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Now, how about casting? Because you're lower to the water, do you do anything different with your casting?
Perk: No, I don't. And moving the rod around when you're picking up the paddle and stuff, I just stick it right behind me out of the back of the canoe and then let it dangle out there. And then, but no, I haven't found the casting, except for it is uncomfortable and awkward to be fishing at a right angle to the canoe unless you've really been doing a lot of yoga. So try to position yourself where you're casting at not anything more acute than a 45-degree angle to you. And that makes it a lot easier.
And then, the nice thing about a canoe is they're so quiet. I use it a lot on the Missouri River, Tom. I know you fish in Missouri, a lot of your listeners have. And there's so much boat traffic on that river that the fish get pretty ripple-shy from boats. And a canoe, I think, allows you to get a lot closer and put the fish down less. And again, remember to get out of the canoe. A lot of times, you can. I get in the habit of just being in the canoe and dropping the anchor and then casting from the canoe when I'm in two feet of water and I could easily get out and fish it much more effectively by wading.
Tom: But you often just stay in the canoe.
Perk: Just out of habit or whatever, or I'm too eager to get the cast out there. Well, then, also I haven't been doing enough yoga. It's a little more time-consuming at my age to get out of the canoe, too. It's, like, oh, oh.
Tom: At your age, you're in great shape. Don't give me that.
Perk: I'm turning 70 next month. You must be, too.
Tom: No, you're older than I am. I'm turning 69 next month.
Perk: All right, well, you're a young, supple man.
Tom: A year more supple than you. Do you ever pull your canoe?
Perk: Not much. I heard on your podcast that you like to do that. What I do is my canoe is fairly stable. We can talk about types of canoes, too. Mine is fairly stable and I stand up in my canoe a lot, and I use a paddle board paddle. And when I'm fishing, if it's not too windy and I'm fishing still water, I'll stand up in my canoe and paddle like I'm on a paddle board and it gives me great visibility. I usually sit down to cast because casting from standing, it sends out too many ripples. But an adjustable paddle, like you get for paddle boards, can be really handy for that.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. And you don't use stabilizers, right? You don't have any stabilizer, mainly because you're in a river and they'd probably get in the way, right?
Perk: Yeah. Yeah, I bought some once because I thought I was going to be fishing still water a lot more, but I actually never ended up using them. But I believe I heard you talking about them in an earlier podcast. Do they make them for kayaks as well?
Tom: I'm not sure if they do. A lot of the modern kayaks are so stable that you don't even need them. They're really stable. The double-hull-type kayaks are very, very stable. But yeah, with those outriggers and polling, you know, Sean Combs [SP] and I can both stand up carp fishing in a canoe and you know Sean Combs is not a small guy.
Perk: No kidding?
Tom: Yeah.
Perk: And is that with an outrigger or without one?
Tom: Yeah, with an outrigger. Yeah, with an outrigger. You know, one of us will pull and the other will cast and we can both stand up at the same time. It works pretty well.
Perk: Yeah.
Tom: Nobody's fallen in yet.
Perk: Well, that's remarkable. It takes all the fun out of it, though.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Perk: But talking about types of canoes, your typical length is around 16, 17 feet. If you're going to be fishing mostly lakes, and especially if you're going to have to cover a fair amount of water, canoes are sold with different amounts of rocker, which, for people who aren't familiar with that term, that describes the amount that the bow and the stern is turned up from the waterline.
So a canoe with a lot of rocker, picture its hull being kind of rocking horse shaped, and one that is not that's built for lakes is much flatter. So the flatter lines are good for tracking in a lake. And the ones with rocker, a little better in a river where you're going to be turning and maneuvering a lot, quite a bit more. I tend to go... And most of them are sold with sort of a medium amount of rocker, so they work well in both environments.
And I used to always have Royalex canoes, which are quieter because it's a foam that's sandwiched in between layers of plastic. So they're quiet and they're rugged, but they're heavier. And I just got to where I could no longer lift my Royalex on top of my car. So a few years ago, I went to the much lighter-weight composite ones, and that's kept me in the game.
Tom: Didn't you used to have a beautiful cedar canoe, or was that your dad that had that beautiful cedar?
Perk: I did, yeah. In fact, that's going back in time. It lasted a long time, though. I got that as a graduation present from college. Yeah, it was a beautiful canoe. And I made the mistake of storing that canoe tilted upside-down, so it was resting on the ground on its bow and its stern points. And those developed rot over a number of years. You know, I had it fixed and stuff, but it was just a reminder that those wooden canoes, that you do have to take much more care of them.
And with the Royalex ones, I don't know if you've had this, but they make them with wooden gunnels, and they'll make them with plastic gunnels. The trouble with the wooden gunnels, if you have to store it in an unheated space in the winter, it gets about 20 below that those screws that they drive through the wooden gunnel to attach them to the hull, they'll crack the hull.
That plastic Royalex hull just doesn't deal with the expansion and contraction of cold weather. And I've had a couple of canoes that develop really bad cracks from that. But if you can keep them in a slightly heated space just so it doesn't get really cold, that won't be a problem.
Tom: Yeah. I do... My canoe, I think it's, like, a 1980s vintage Kevlar canoe that wasn't used much. It does have wooden gunnels and I do store it outside under a tarp, but I should be careful of that.
Perk: I'm not sure that it's... Where it really is a problem is with that Royalex material or some of those where they've got several plies bonded together.
Tom: Okay.
Perk: Yeah, I haven't heard of the problem if it's straight fiberglass or Kevlar or some composite.
Tom: Oh, okay, good. Good.
Perk: Yeah. Yeah. You don't use yours on the Madowy [SP], do you?
Tom: No, I don't use mine in moving water. I prefer to wade or be in a drift boat. I'm thinking of maybe putting it in the Batten Kill someday. But, no, I use it for lakes, mainly for Lake Champlain and other places for carp fishing and bass fishing. That's what I use it for.
Perk: Right. I got written up once, Tom, on the White River, because I didn't have, what do you call them, a personal flotation device, PFD.
Tom: Oh, yeah.
Perk: I didn't have a PFD with me even though I was in three feet of water, but the game warden called out to me, and I went over and chatted with him. And he wrote me up for not having my PFD. So don't forget to throw those in.
Tom: Yeah. Do you use a wearable one when you're in your canoe?
Perk: I don't. If I were running some rapids and had things buckled down, you know, I would then, and I definitely tie things down before I go through any challenging water. Because I've tipped the canoe over many times and learned the hard way just how painful, gear-wise, that can be. Yeah.
The other painful lesson is such a rookie mistake. And I think the last time I made this, I was in my 60s. So I guess you never cease being a rookie. But when you land any boat, canoe in particular, and you pull it up on an island or on the shore, make sure you tie it or pull it way up. Because I was on the Snake and we stopped for lunch and I pulled it up and I thought, this pulled up pretty well. We went and had lunch. No wind that day. Maybe they let a little more water out of the dam, I don't know. Came back, no canoe. So it was ghost floating downstream.
And that wasn't a pretty ending on that. We lost rods, vests, cameras. Oh, my God.
Tom: Oh, God.
Perk: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Always pull it up.
Tom: Yeah, you wouldn't think on a river on a calm day. There's no tide that's going to come in. But I guess you never know. You have to be careful.
Perk: I don't know what did it. But yeah, always pull it up much farther than you think.
Tom: Okay. Good tip, good tip.
Perk: Yeah. I don't know, I have that much more. I mean, the beauty of fishing out of a canoe is that it's fairly simple. The simplicity is really appealing. And I suppose the other thing is, if you're fishing singly out of a canoe, I do a fair number of bike shuttles. So I'll buy a cheap mountain bike secondhand, so I can throw it in the weeds. And if someone steals it, it's not the end of the world. And I don't worry about treating it rough. So I'll use bike shuttles a lot for that.
And, again, just, it allows you to access other waters where you may not be able to arrange for a shuttle or something.
Tom: Yeah, good tip. Now, what do you do with your paddle? Let's say you're fishing still water or you're in a river, and you come up to a fish and you're going to put the paddle down and pick up your rod. Is there anything special you do with your paddle?
Perk: No. And I invite you... I don't have... You're asking that question is going to make me think hard of it, but I'll ask your readers, listeners, to weigh in on that one. But it is a problem because I fish a lot of really quiet moving water and, yeah, you bump that paddle and that's enough to put the fish down. What I do, I can't really recommend. I just lay it down gently on the center thwart in front of me so that the blade is on the bottom and the handle is resting on the center thwart in front of me.
But gosh, invariably, the line flips up on it or it makes a little knocking noise or something. So other than that, which I wouldn't really recommend, but I don't really have a better solution for a nice way to lay that paddle down so it's out of your way and so that the wind or so that it won't knock or rock and make any noise.
Tom: You don't put it, like, behind you? You don't stick it behind you facing away from you? I guess the wind might blow that around.
Perk: No, that would... I definitely keep my net and I keep some other things back there behind me, and I'll have to try that. It would be less likely to make any noise back there.
Tom: Yeah, that's a good question to pose to the listeners. There's probably some homemade device that somebody's made to hold a paddle, with foam or something that wouldn't bang it around. But I know it's a problem for me. I just never know exactly where to put it.
Perk: Here's another question for the listeners, is that, you know how the J-stroke, it's a little painful when you roll your wrist all the way down, I mean, your wrist just doesn't want to point down that far when you roll it down to start to turn that stroke into the rudder. And I've always wondered, whereas when your hand and your wrist is I guess parallel to the blade, it's very comfortable.
You got plenty of... I never understood why a canoe paddle maker didn't make that handle offset at an angle. So that when you rolled your wrist down to turn that J-stroke into the rudder, yeah, you weren't straining it so much to make the angle. You know, I've seen paddles bent in other directions, but I've never seen them sort of twisted like that so that it would make the J-stroke a little less painful. I don't know if you can visualize what I'm saying.
Tom: Well, you got me sitting here in my chair doing a J-stroke.
Perk: Yeah.
Tom: Yeah, interesting.
Perk: Yeah. And the proper way to do a J-stroke, you probably know this, but the proper way is to roll your thumb away and down from you. And that's where it gets uncomfortable is when you've rolled it way down. The more comfortable way, but not the proper way, is to roll your thumb up so that it's kind of pointing more at your face at the end of the stroke. And that doesn't hurt your wrist and doesn't strain your wrist at all. But it's also not quite as an effective stroke.
Tom: Yeah. I'm sitting here doing it. I have to get out in the water and try it. Okay.
Perk: Yeah, well, I don't think I have much else. Like I said, the beauty of fishing out of a canoe is it keeps it fairly simple.
Tom: Yeah, well, that's great stuff. And you gave us some great tips and some great ideas for outfitting a canoe better for fly fishing. So I really appreciate that.
Perk: You're welcome. Yeah, I'll listen and see if we get some ideas on some of those other questions that I couldn't help you with.
Tom: I'll forward them to you. If we get some more questions, I will forward them to you. And if we get some suggestions on paddles and J-stroking or a bent paddle, I'll forward them on to you.
Perk: All right, good, Tom.
Tom: All right, Perk, well, it's been great talking to you. Again, we've been talking to Perk Perkins of the Orvis Board of Directors. Not the chairman of the board anymore. Orvis Board of Directors, and past president and CEO of the Orvis Company for many years and now fully retired. Right?
Perk: Yeah. Well, I fish full-time, so I'm not fully retired.
Tom: I want a job like yours.
Perk: Yeah. All right.
Tom: Okay, Perk.
Perk: Take care. And thanks for listening.
Tom: All right, thank you. Bye-bye.
Narrator: Thanks for listening to the Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment, send it to us at