The Future of Bristol Bay, with Nelli Williams
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: I'm still here [inaudible 00:00:02]
Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast. This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And April is Earth Month so I'm gonna be doing environmentally related podcasts for the entire month of April. Last week we talked to Steve Davis about the Everglades Reservoir. This week my guest is Nelli Williams from Trout Unlimited Alaska and we're gonna be talking about...you know, we've had a big win in Bristol Bay where the Pebble Mine area has received some protection that we hope is going to be...is gonna stick. But, you know, Bristol Bay is a big place. And we're gonna be talking to Nelli about other threats and other opportunities in the Bristol Bay region because it's a big body of water and we have to be vigilant on any of these issues.
And then next week I'm going to be interviewing Chris Wood, the President and CEO of Trout Unlimited on some exciting projects that Trout Unlimited is doing. And then the last Friday in April we're gonna be talking to Western Rivers Conservancy about some exciting projects they have on the Big Hole and the Yakima River. So, this is a month of environmental podcasts. You know, if you don't care about giving back and you don't care about clean water and rivers and streams, healthy rivers and streams to fish, then you can just write off April. You know, if all you want out of the podcast is how to catch them and where to catch them and what flies to use, then you can wait till May because we'll get back into the hardcore fishing stuff. But April's Earth Month so that's what we're gonna be doing.
Okay. Couple other things before we get started on the Fly Box. One is that I'm gonna be giving a presentation on finding trout on April 29th at the Battenkill Fly Fishing Festival in Arlington, Vermont. And this is a great weekend. There's stuff going on all week and there's photography, fly-tying, food, live music and also that weekend my friend and fishing guide Alberto Rey, fishing guy and artist Alberto Rey has an opening at the Southern Vermont Art Center. So big weekend here in Vermont. Lots of things to do. And, you know, come on out and come to our presentation if you want. It's not free but I don't think it's very expensive either. I can't remember how much it is but you can buy tickets online. And hope to see you there.
All right. Couple other things. Boy, the phone calls, they really came out of the woodwork this week as you'll see. And I'm really looking for some questions and phone calls about technique and about fish behavior and things like that that I think will be of interest to all of you listeners. So, let's get some good questions, either phone calls or emails. Either one is good but like to have some good hardcore questions that I can answer.
Got a couple of questions about artificial intelligence this week and I'm gonna answer them or I'm gonna comment on them but I think I'm gonna close the artificial intelligence issue on the podcast. I find it not that terribly interesting and I think there's lots of other things we could talk about in the podcast than artificial intelligence as it relates to flyfishing. So, I'm not...please don't send me any more questions about...or comments about artificial intelligence. I don't really wanna talk about them on the podcast.
All right. So, let's do the Fly Box. And if you have a question for the Fly Box, you can send it to me at
Let's start with an email from Caleb. I just found your podcast last week and have been burning through episodes soaking in the great advice and information. I live in Central West Virginia and flyfish for trout all through the state. I tie my own flies but often get caught up tying new patterns I see on social media adding yet another fly to the box. My question is how do I narrow down my efforts in fly-tying so I have the most effective flies in my box and don't end up with 10 boxes on the stream.
Well, Caleb, that's a really good question and I think it's a question that most of us grapple with. And I can tell you how I handle the issue and then you can take it from there and do whatever you want. But what I do is that I stock my box mostly with standard patterns. Now, I tie all my own flies but I generally tie up flies that I think or I know are gonna be effective. You know, I do some research on a river. Some rivers, I have experience on and I know what I'm gonna need but other ones, new ones, you know, I do some research online and I find out what flies are most effective on that particular river. And so, I put...I fill my fly box mostly with those and then I tie up some experiments, you know. I dream up a few crazy patterns to add to my box, you know, just to try different things, to keep things interesting. And so, you know, I would...if you don't tie...you know, some people don't tie their own flies. What I would do is the same thing. I'd go into a fly shop and I'd get the recommendation from the fly shop owner or someone in the fly shop about what flies are working right now and I'd get mostly those.
And then I'd just pick a couple patterns that look interesting or look intriguing or, you know, just...they may just speak to you. And put those in your box and try them out. You might not use them on that particular river but you might use them somewhere else. So, I know it's tough and I don't have a really good answer because there's lots of flies that I wanna put in my box that I wanna try and I just don't wanna carry 10 boxes. So, you have to somehow sort through them and that's my advice.
Roger: Hello, Tom. This is Roger Bird down here in Houston, Texas. Well, last week I heard a podcast listener commenting about the use of artificial intelligence in flyfishing. Well, have I got something for you. Alexa, play the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast latest edition.
Alexa: Getting the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast from Amazon Music. Here's the latest episode, "The Science Behind the Everglades Storage Reservoir with Steve Davis".
Roger: Alexa, stop. Well, Tom, there you go. You are on Alexa.
Tom: So, Roger, thank you for that. I think you've been able to do that on Alexa for quite a while but anyway, good to know and appreciate that. So now that all of you that have those voice devices on your phone or at home, you know where you can find the podcast. See, I told you some calls came out of the woodwork this week.
All right, let's do an email. This one's from Steve from Napa, California. I'm one of those guys that started flyfishing due to the pandemic. I love the solitude and that I can do it alone. I don't even have to catch anything to enjoy it. Your YouTube videos and podcasts have taught me so much. I can't thank you enough. I have a tip and a few questions. When I first had my sections of my rod not pull apart due to increased temperatures as the day progressed, I actually bent and loosened one of my rod ferrules attempting to separate my rod sections using the behind the knee method. It was really stuck. The heat of the day must've expanded the rod connections. As a result, I've loosened one of my ferrules. When it happened a second time, I thought about dipping the stuck section into the water for about 15 seconds to cool it down. It worked like a charm. Hope that tip helps others and gives you another option.
For my questions, what do they mean that a stream or river is considered technical? Where I fish in Northern California is a river called Putah Creek. It's a river, not a creek. In the three years I've fished this river, I've only caught one rainbow. Anywhere else I've fished, lakes, streams and creeks from Napa to Sierras I've caught many trout, bluegill, crappies and smallmouth bass. Because I'm retired, I'm able to get out at least two days every week. So, my learning curve is quicker just because I get to get out so often. So, what makes Putah so difficult to catch a trout? What makes it referred to as technical? It's catch and release river with barbless hooks, no bait fishing allowed. Are the fish much smarter because they are all released? Thanks, Tom. I'm hooked on you but I won't get a tattoo of your image.
Well, I'm glad to hear that. So, Steve, thank you for that tip. That's a good one. And I'm gonna try that myself if I have stuck rod sections. You know, the term technical is confusing to a lot of people and it's not...it's a loose term and it's not really official or there's no strong definition. But, you know, a river can be technical one day and not technical another day. Technical just means that the fish are difficult and they're fussy and usually, where this happens and where it happens regularly would be on a river like Putah Creek where there's a lot of food and the fish see a lot of bugs and they get sometimes kinda picky about what they eat. And then they're caught and released a lot so they get a little wary of eating stuff, particularly eating stuff off the surface. Now I think that in a technical river the fish don't even have to be caught and released to get wary because what happens is the fish are feeding either on a nymph or a dry fly and they go towards something that looks like food and then it moves in a weird manner. It drags or somebody picks up the line or they go to eat it and somebody rips it off the water.
And so, you know, they don't even have to be caught and released to get wise. They get wise to stuff that doesn't look quite right. So, it does happen mostly in, you know, in heavily fished streams with a lot of trout food. But I've seen fish in wilderness rivers get technical, get picky about things. But, you know, where it happens day in and day out, it's...yeah, it's rivers with...generally with clear water, lots of food and lots of anglers.
Let's do another email. This one's from John. Hi, Tom. Some comments on the canoe flyfishing podcast. I'm in Madison, Wisconsin and often flyfish from canoes. I much prefer still water as it's super chill and far less hectic than moving water. The wildlife you see is incredible. I've floated within 20 yards of deer feeding at the bank, great blue herons stocking the reeds and kingfishers perching on overhanging branches. Just lovely. Couple of comments. First, Perk nailed it. His suggestions are all spot on. He knows what he's talking about. Second, to deal with the wind, use two anchors on still water, one at the bow and the other back at the stern. Don't do that in moving waters. You can get sideways in the current and tip. I rigged a Scotty anchor pull at the bow that I can operate from the back when solo and drop a second anchor next to me in the back. Works great.
Third, for paddle noise, simply put one of those foam thwart shoulder pads on the thwart or DIY one of your own. The paddle won't bang the thwart when you lay it down. Fourth, as for gear, for cool and warm water species like bass, panfish and pike, get a short stout rod and use a very short, heavy front taper shooting head no longer than 20 feet. Fifteen feet's even better. Counterintuitively, a stout seven- to eight-foot-long rod works best. You simply cannot do a lot of false casting to get enough line out back to load the rod because your aspect to the water is so low even with a nine foot without working it to death. Further, is you can't even single haul sitting in a canoe. You can't generate enough forward line speed by hauling. So, you need a stout rod and a short shooting head to shoot your line with usually no more than one back cast. Two at the most if you screw up on the first one. There's no need for super long casts. Thirty feet is generally all you need but 40 feet is not hard. Flyfishing still water from a canoe is super chill, simple and nature immersive.
Well, John, thank you for those tips. Those are certainly great tips. And I would argue that you see just as much wildlife on moving water. If you're quiet and careful, you'll see the same kinda wildlife in moving water if you're observant. I tend to spend too much time looking at the water and not looking along the bank for wildlife. I've been known to fish right in front of a bear that I never even saw because I was concentrating on the water. So, but you will see...if you tip your head up and look around the bank, you will see lots and lots of great wildlife on rivers as well.
Don: Hey, Tom. This is Don. I've got a couple of questions for you. I can't tell you how excited I was when I saw Orvis's new growable bioengineered bamboo rod. I went ahead and ordered one right away. I could never afford the $3,000 to 4,000 but the price point on this is perfect. I just wanted to know from you or get your assurance that, one, it's gluten free and two, I know it's bioengineered but that doesn't mean GMO, does it, because I think gluten and GMO are bad for the environment. So that's number one.
Number two, what I was wondering...if this rod is gonna be able to handle a big cicada fly. Looks like it should be ready about the time that cicadas are hatching and I would like to be able to use it if you think it would handle it. And if so, which fly would be the best cicada to tie, cicada fly.
And then one more thing. I know fishing is a blood sport but I was thinking maybe I could tie one without a hook and then put a slipknot on the tippet so when you came up through the loop...that when I set, the slipknot would tie around him and then I could land him without hooking him and then just release the trout. Just wondering if you've ever tried anything like this. Appreciate how progressive Orvis is and then allowing these bamboo rods to be available at a much lower price. Looking forward to your response.
Tom: So, Don, it's a little late for April Fools but maybe that's my problem in not answering your call or your phone call more promptly. But yeah, thank you for that. You know, there is a couple of private jokes. If some of you haven't listened to all of the podcasts, this goes back a couple years to an April Fools podcast that I did on cicada fishing which actually upset a number of people because they wanted a serious podcast on cicada fishing. So, you know, if you wanna go back I think it was maybe April of 2019 or 2020. Anyways, it was an April 1st podcast a couple of years ago. But thank you, Don.
Here's an email from Peter. Another one with comments on canoe fishing. Thank you for the recent show on canoe fishing with Perk Perkins. It was very informative. I too enjoy fishing from a canoe. I have a couple thoughts I would like to share. I also have a fly-tying question. First, I have a small solo canoe with seat mounted close to the center. I find the easiest way to get around and maintain control while fishing is by using a kayak paddle instead of a canoe paddle. To do this, you'll need to use a longer kayak paddle than you would normally use because you're sitting higher and further from the water in a canoe than you are when sitting in a kayak. The kayak paddle makes it easy to move fast, maintain a straight course and turn the boat. I know canoe purists are cringing but I am out here to fish, not work on my J-stroke.
Another suggestion is trolling a streamer slowly when moving from spot to spot. I have found many new fishing spots by trolling a fly between my favorite spots. It's also a good way to explore new waters if you're having trouble finding fish. Be sure to check your local regulations. In some waters, trolling is not allowed.
Okay. Now for my question. Lately I have been tying Sparkle Duns and Comparaduns. I really like the patterns and find them to be productive under the right conditions. I also love tying traditional Catskill dry flies. My question is, have you ever seen or heard of people tying Catskill dries and clipping the hackle from the bottom so it looks like a Comparadun? Is this already a style? Do you think it would float or would the clipped hackle cause it to sink? I have looked online and can't find anything. Any advice would be appreciated.
Well, thank you for the canoe suggestions, Peter. And regarding clipping hackle, back when I was tying flies commercially when I was a teenager, I kinda specialized in Catskill dries. And you never clipped your hackle. Clipped hackle was the sign of a rookie. And supposedly, the fine ends of the hackle would make the fly float better. Well, that's total crap. And clipped hackle can...actually sometimes seems to make the fly float better. And there is a style of fly that's not used so much anymore where you tie the wing back a little bit further and then you wind hackle in front and behind the wing like you would in a Catskill dry. Usually, it uses a turkey flat feather but you could use hare or poly or anything. And then you clip the hackle on the bottom and you can clip it either even with the hook point or you can even clip it closer to the body of the fly, right, almost down to the hook and just leave the hackle on the sides and on the top.
And these things float like a cork. So yes, you can clip the hackle. You know, it seems a shame to clip the hackle on a classic Catskill dry just because it's a style. But yeah, the hackle will...trimmed hackle will sometimes make the fly float a little bit better more upright and sometimes getting that body closer to the surface of the water makes it more effective, makes it more like an emerger. So yes, you can do it. No, it won't sink. And just don't show it to any traditionalists.
Here's an email from Jackson. I'm a 13-year-old flytyer and almost a flyfishing expert. First, I have a question. Does Orvis do tip section replacements? My Encounter combo's tip section broke beyond repair and I am wondering if you guys at Orvis do rod top replacements. Now for my tip. When I tie elk hair caddis size 16 and below, I like to use finer deer hair instead of elk hair because I think it makes a much buggier imitation. Hopefully everyone that's listening who ties flies takes my tip into consideration.
Well, thank you, Jackson. That's a great tip and yeah, there's actually a fly called X-Caddis which uses deer hair instead of elk hair and uses an Antron shuck in the back. And you're right. For smaller elk hair, "elk hair caddis", probably fine deer hair like Comparadun hair is a better hair for tying those little tiny flies because elk hair is a little bit courser.
Regarding your encounter rod, yes, you can get a replacement tip for the normal handling fee. The Clearwater rods, which is the next step up, have a 25-year guarantee but the Encounter has a 5-year guarantee. So as long as it's less than five years old, you can get a replacement tip for the standard handling fee and just go to the Orvis website and you can register your rod if you haven't registered it already and get a replacement tip.
Here's an email from Eric. And I promise you this is the last artificial intelligence question or comment I'm gonna have on the podcast. Maybe. With the recent popularity of newly public technologies in the AI industry, I thought there might be a ton of interesting conversations for your podcast to cover in regards. Number one, will AI ever replace your flyfishing guide? Ha, ha, we can celebrate. This will be a no. Two, would it be possible to use AI ethically to gather information and still claim to be a guardian of fisheries? Three, what kinds of information can AI help you figure out? Does it beat a fly shop? I can personally tell you the flies it recommended me did not produce as well as the one a local guide suggested.
Number four, how are anglers already using AI for good, for bad? Five, what is happening? Are we losing the beauty of the art of flyfishing and getting too obsessive over optimizing our performance? Is the magic of an adventure disappearing because we have access to all these tools?
So, I'm gonna answer your questions. Will AI ever replace flyfishing guide? Ha. Well, we know that won't happen. Would it be possible to use AI ethically to gather information and still claim to be a guardian of fisheries? Yeah, I think it would because it's just another way of getting information from the internet and we all get information from the internet. And you can also use AI to find out how you can support clean water and how you can be a guardian of your local waters. I'm sure AI could give you some good suggestions on that. So yeah, I think it's totally ethical.
What kinds of information can AI help you figure out? Does it beat a fly shop? No, I don't think it's gonna beat the fly shop. You know, the AI can only give you information that's on the internet. It's just going out and searching all the information that's on the internet. And as you all know, some of it's good and some of it's totally worthless. But I think that for the most part...you know, if you're looking for recommended fly patterns for a particular area or a time of year, it's a pretty good source. And again, it's not that much different than doing a search on the internet. It's just going out and looking at a little bit more information than you'd get out of a normal search.
What is happening? Are we losing the beauty of the art of flyfishing? Nah, I don't think so. Just another way of finding out information. And it's a fact of life. It's gonna be happening and you can totally ignore it if you want. You know, you don't have to use AI. You don't even have to use the internet and you can still have a wonderful time flyfishing and still have all the magic and all the discovery. It's up to you. It's up to you how you use that tool. It's the way of the world. That's the way things are gonna be. But you don't have to participate in it if you don't want to.
Marcus: Hello, Tom. This is Marcus from Germany. I've got a short question for you and a tip for some beginners in fly-tying. When I started off with fly-tying, I more often than not wasn't leaving enough space behind the hook eye to put a nice head on the fly. And I ended up blocking my hook eye with the fret more often than not. Especially when I tried out new patterns that I hadn't tried before. Well, I'm fully aware that you should get your proportions right in the first place but sometimes you don't wanna cut off everything that you already have tied in and start all over again. So, what I'm doing instead is when I feel like there is not enough space to complete the fly, I take another hook and I poke it through the hook eye and Mike Mayo wood finish over the hook so the fret stays behind the hook eye and the hook eye stays free so you can fret on your tippet on the water very easily. And yeah, maybe this is also beneficial when you're tying very small flies like 22s, 24s where you have very little room for error.
And my question is about the new hybrid wading boots that I purchased a couple of weeks ago. And you recommended that it's possible to get some studs for those wading boots. And now I wanted to know where should I put the studs in the wading boot. Should I put them on the felt sole or on the rubber sole? Maybe there's a pattern suggestion where you should put them. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, Tom. So, thanks for all you do and keep on the good work. Thanks. Bye.
Tom: So, Marcus, that's a great tip. You could even...I guess you could even tie a piece of short piece of tippet into the eye of the fly, just a real short piece. Cut if off and then you would know that the eye would be clear so you could do that. Not a bad idea at all. So, thank you for that tip. Regarding the placement of studs on your hybrid wading boots or any wading boots, I suppose it's gonna depend on each individual and how you walk in and where the weight of your foot is placed. My suggestion...and this is what I do with my own wading boots, is I like to have at least four studs in the toe and the balls of my feet because that's where...you know, when you're wading, that's where you're gonna kind of feel forward. You kinda move your foot forward and shuffle it and you feel with your toe and the ball of your foot for a secure perch. And then when you put your weight down, you probably want a little bit more grip there. So, I usually put at least two studs in the heel, somewhere in the center of the heel.
You know, you probably want these in the center of your foot, not on the outside on the rubber but in the felt because the center of your foot is where your weight is gonna be concentrated on and that's where you want the studs. So, I would say minimum you could probably even get away with three in a triangle in your toe. One stud toward the toe and then two studs at the ball of the feet and then maybe two studs in the heel area. But it doesn't hurt to put more studs in.
I have one wading boot where I put...probably put about maybe eight studs between the toe and the ball of my foot and four studs in the heel. As long as you secure those studs so that they're almost recessed. You don't want the studs sticking out too high because then you're gonna be standing on top of the studs and you're not gonna have as good of a grip. You just want the tips of those studs to barely protrude beyond either the felt or the rubber so that they grip but you're not kinda, like, walking on little stilts. But you can put as many as you want but I think, you know, probably for a bare minimum, that's what you wanna do. And, you know, you can put in a few and try it and then, you know, pay attention to where your foot is slipping and, you know, based on your own weight and your height and how you balance, you know, pay attention to where you're slipping and then maybe add a couple more studs afterwards. So, I hope that's helpful.
All right. That is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Nelli Williams about the future of the Bristol Bay region.
Well, my guest today is Nelli Williams. We have worked with Nelli for years at Orvis. Nelli is the Alaska Director for Trout Unlimited. And Nelli, you've had some busy years up there, haven't you?
Nelli: I have, Tom. Pleasure to talk with you. So good to talk with you.
Tom: And people probably know that there's a reason to celebrate. We have a big win with the Bristol Bay, the protection of Bristol Bay but I wanted you...let's go into little more detail and I wanted you first to explain what we've won, how secure it is and maybe what we need to watch out for in the future because, you know, these things require constant vigilance, don't they.
Nelli: Totally. Yeah, yeah.
Tom: I mean, we thought we had won...when was it that the EPA ruled?
Nelli: Yeah. It's been a saga, Tom. We had initially good news from the EPA back in 2014 and it went through a couple of lawsuits since...as recently I've gotten it across the finish line but it's been a long, long battle. And I'm happy to dive into more details if that's [crosstalk 00:35:04]
Tom: Yeah, let's talk about the most recent win and then, you know, how secure it is, in your eyes, anyways.
Nelli: Yeah. Yeah. So back in... just a month ago or so, a little bit more than a month ago, back in late January, the Environmental Protection Agency finalized the Clean Water Act 404 safeguards for the lands and waters around the Pebble deposit where the Pebble Mine was proposed many, many years ago and has been a threat, you know, up until very recently. This is great news. Like, I'm still celebrating. Our team is still celebrating. Bristol Bay is still celebrating. It's really been something that has been asked for for 14 years. So back in 2010 is when these safeguards and this tool, the Clean Water Act was proposed and asked for by tribes and commercial fishermen and women and sportsmen and women. And since 2010, there's been a lot of scientific and public review that has happened on what the risks are from the Pebble Mine to the fishery and the culture and the economy and the wildlife and everything that is Bristol Bay.
And in 2014, as I said, these original safeguards were proposed. It was held up in court. The previous administration overturned those protections and thanks to a lawsuit challenging that decision brought by Trout Unlimited and other groups, we were able to get those Clean Water Act safeguards from 2014 back on the table. And since it had been so many years, the EPA had to go back in and take a look and see if things were still relevant or if any of the science needed to be updated and that's what they've been working on for the past about two years, year and a half. And then we had a comment period this summer where once again there was overwhelming public support for advancing safeguards for Bristol Bay. And in January, just a few weeks ago, they announced that yes, indeed, they would put these safeguards in place that both restrict mine waste from being dumped in rivers and streams in kinda the three watersheds which flow into the Nushagak and Kvichak River and then also completely prohibit mine waste from being disposed of in those kinda key wetlands and rivers near the Pebble Mine deposit.
Tom: How much land does this protection encompass, Nelli?
Nelli: Yeah. So let me start. So, the prohibition of mine waste is a few square miles right at the Pebble site. And it's specifically because the Clean Water Act is the Clean Water Act. It specifically works...protects and safeguards the water. So that's a couple hundred miles of streams. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Tom. It's about 100 miles of streams that are...mine waste is prohibited at. And then about 2,000 acres of wetlands. And then the EPA also looked at Pebble's very likely plan for expanding beyond their original mine plan. And those protections are somewhere around about 400 miles of streams and about 10,000 acres of wetlands but, yeah, somewhere around 15 square miles.
Tom: Can a mine still be built there if they could prove to the EPA that there would be no mine waste?
Nelli: In theory, a mine could kinda slip through the cracks or under the levels of protection that...or the levels where the protections are offered. But, you know, the economic viability is questionable, if not impossible at that point.
Tom: Okay.
Nelli: You know, one of the things we've learned about the Pebble deposit over the past many years is that it has a very low concentration of valuable materials. So, you have to dig out an incredible amount of rock and ore to extract the valuable materials and you end up with, you know, 10.78 billion tons of waste rock that you have to do something with. So, unless, you know, they figure out how to shoot it to the moon or, you know, do something with that much waste, I don't think a mine is viable at the Pebble deposit.
Tom: Aha. I thought this was supposed to be a very rich deposit.
Nelli: Well, it's valuable in that there's a ton of it, you know. It's one of the largest gold and copper deposits in the world, right. So, the monetary value is significant. But it takes an incredible amount of work to extract it from the ore because it's kinda deluded throughout the ore body.
Tom: So, you're feeling pretty comfortable that there won't be a threat to those salmon spawning rivers?
Nelli: Well, I'm feeling...I'm definitely celebrating and this is a huge milestone and it definitely gives us breathing room. I will say two things, Tom, and this is why we need to stay very vigilant on the Pebble front, is one, the Pebble Partnership has said that they intend to legally challenge both the 2020 permit denial which is victory number one that we pushed for three years ago.
Tom: Right.
Nelli: And then they also will likely challenge this most recent decision and in courts. And, you know, that's kind of number one on their list, is defend these really good decisions that were based on strong science and incredibly overwhelming public support. So, there's definitely going to be some legal work to do. And TU is not typically a very litigious organization but this is...you know, a special place like Bristol Bay calls for special attention and Trout Unlimited has every intention of defending this good work that's been done.
And then the second thing, Tom...and this is what is a little overwhelming but also, I think we have some incredible opportunity, is that Bristol Bay is this huge, huge place, right. And it's just teeming with salmon and all the things salmon support. And the Pebble deposit is this relatively...you know, it's like a bullseye, it's like the center of the bullseye, right. You have a very...a known, very valuable mineral deposit.
Tom: Right.
Nelli: And we've been working really hard to stop that specific proposal in that specific place. But over the course of learning about that and all the studies that have been done since, like, we know that the larger Bristol Bay watershed which is the side of the state of Ohio has tons of minerals in there, right, that probably haven't...mostly haven't been discovered. So, we are going to continually have this search for valuable minerals in Bristol Bay beyond the Pebble deposit and that is one of the things we are looking for is...toward is that, you know, Pebble was one very bad example of a giant mine that shouldn't be built on top of some of the most productive salmon rivers in the world. But if another Pebble deposit is found 20 miles to the west, like, it's still a bad idea to go on to develop a giant mine.
So, one of the things we are working for is watershed wide safeguards so that we don't have to fight, you know, the next version of the Pebble Mine, you know, 20 years from now and that my kids and your kids...you know, all of our nieces and nephews don't have to face this again.
Tom: Yeah. We don't wanna be playing whac-a-mole for the next couple of generations with this issue. What would be involved in protecting a watershed that large, Nelli?
Nelli: Well, you know, I think it'll require a lot of public discussion and led by the people of Bristol Bay first and foremost, you know, that Yup'ik and Dena'ina people have done at the forefront of this fight. And, you know, it's their homeland and their traditional lands and I think, you know, first is a conversation of how they want their lands managed.
The second is, you know, there's a whole host of modern-day landowners. So, we have federal lands out there, we have state lands out there, we have private lands out there and they think, you know, it'll be taking a look at that whole mosaic of lands and figuring how we can protect the salmon and these kinda critical pathways to spawning grounds in the future. And that can be a combination of actions at the state level, at the federal level. But I think first and foremost, it has to be kind of a locally driven effort.
Tom: And this has been a true grassroots effort, right? It's been all kinds of groups that have come together from indigenous tribes to commercial fishermen to sport fishermen to...I mean, who else was...I mean, literally everyone in the area was involved, weren't they?
Nelli: Oh, absolutely, Tom. It's been...that's been one of the most...my favorite parts of my job, is listening to...meet and listen to just such a wide variety of really inspiring leaders. And, you know, both leaders that are, you know, leading from the top and also, you know, folks that have commented on every single comment period that has happened in the past 14, 20 years. And this absolutely has been something that, you know, I think we'd be sitting in a very, very different place and not celebrating if every single person that spoke up hadn't spoken up.
Tom: Yeah.
Nelli: You know, we have these incredibly inspiring local leaders that have been some of the first voices to raise concern about the mine and that was both, you know, local elders and youth. You know, we had youth that were, you know, learning about the Pebble Mine from their parents and their grandparents when they were in high school and middle school and now some of those same people are now leading...the leading voices and leading organizations that are working to protect their homelands.
You have...the lodge community and the sport fishing community has been a huge voice in taking this from, you know, something that's really only...was only known about locally or maybe in the state but really bringing attention to it nationally. And Orvis and many, many other brands have been a huge part of that. So, it's been so many people kind of grabbing the rope and doing their part and pulling hard and that is what has gotten to these recent milestones.
Tom: Nelli, I'm gonna put you on the spot. I promised I wouldn't but I'm gonna. What do you say to people that...and I'm sure you get these kinds of nasty remarks on social media about being antimine and, you know, you can't live in the modern world without using copper and we need copper. Maybe we don't need gold but, you know, copper's an essential part of modern life. What do you say to those people?
Nelli: I say you're absolutely right that we do need certain minerals to live in the world we do, right. Like, we've all got cars. We have computers and phones and, you know, boats and, you know, all those things that make life function. But I also think that salmon and wild rivers and these lands that are in Bristol Bay and in other parts of Alaska and the [inaudible 00:49:33] like, those all...we have to recognize that those also provide an incredible amount of value to our lives and, you know, these are the places where, you know, we go for rejuvenation, we go to relax, we go to recharge, we spend time with our family and our friends. And, like, that matters to us on a day-to-day level, on a year-to-year level. And we have to, as a community on this planet and in our local communities and our state communities, like, we have to have that conversation, right. And in the case of Bristol Bay, like, we...I think there was a very robust conversation on whether or not Bristol Bay should be for salmon or for a giant mine.
And across the board whether you looked at the science or the economics or the will of the people, like, it was a pretty clear decision that Bristol Bay should be salmon country and it should stay that way. And we know from history that large scale mining compromises salmon runs and rivers. So, we need it but there's some places that shouldn't be put at risk and Bristol Bay is one of them. And there are probably other places where large scale mining shouldn't be done. I also think that our society is very creative and if we direct resources to doing mining in a more responsible way, you know, including things like mining [inaudible 00:51:24] tailing. There are some great examples of that being done, of mining in places where you don't have as much risk to water which we know controlling, you know, mine pollution and waste in water is a ballgame that we have not figure out how to do successfully.
Tom: Yeah.
Nelli: So yeah. I mean, I think mining needs to be done but there are certain places that it shouldn't be done and we should be putting a lot of energy and time in figuring out how we do the mining that we do to do better.
Tom: That's beautifully stated, Nelli. Thank you. And, you know, to be even more pragmatic, isn't Bristol Bay the largest source of wild sockeye salmon in the world?
Nelli: Yes. Yeah. Half the world's sockeye salmon comes from Bristol Bay.
Tom: And it's a wild, sustainable, healthy protein that, you know, the world can't live without and it's gotta be...how many billion-dollar industry in Alaska?
Nelli: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, Tom. It's absolutely right. Like, you have the incredibly healthy run of salmon that keeps on coming back every year. We just had another record run of sockeye in the Bristol Bay rivers last year. And that...those salmon support a billion dollar a year commercial fishery, 14,000 jobs in the commercial and the sport fishing industry. And those industries are growing, right. Like, if we do this right, not only will they continue...jobs and economies be supported by salmon but there's a lot of room to build on that to kinda...there's incredible tourism opportunities, there's ways to make the current industries kind of feed back into the local economy better and more efficiently. So yeah, I don't...and I think what this milestone back in January did for us is so many people have been spending so much time, you know, saying no to Pebble and that was absolutely immediate and important. But it sucked up a lot of bandwidth, right.
And now having a little breathing space for local communities and local businesses to really aim for a future for their communities and their industries that can have wild salmon and are based in a fish [inaudible 00:54:16] future. So, there's, I feel, a lot of excitement around what's possible in Bristol Bay. I think we have the chance to get the wild salmon story right.
Tom: Yeah. And it's, you know, it's a good year to be someone who cares about wild rivers and wild places...between the Bristol Bay and the progress that's been made in the everglades, you know, it's easy to be positive these days. And that wasn't always the case. So, but to look on the...you know, I hate to bring this down but what are you going to be watching both with the Bristol Bay region and then...or both with the Pebble region and then Bristol Bay at large. What are the things that keep you up at...still keep you up at night? Because I know they do. And what are the things that all of us need to pay attention to?
Nelli: Yeah. Yeah. It's a great, great question. Well, first, you know, we are keeping an eye on these big safeguards that we've gotten across the finish line and defending them against very likely challenges from the Pebble Partnership and other entities. So that's definitely something we're laser focused on in the near term.
Tom: Yep.
Nelli: In addition to the legal pieces and defending those good milestones, the second thing that, you know, we're looking forward toward is these watershed wide protections for the whole region. And if you look at, you know, the Pebble, the permit denial, these Clean Water Act safeguards we just got in place, the analogy I like to use is, you know, we have...if you think about the Bristol Bay watershed, it's a house. And that house is full of gold and you had the Pebble Partnership come up to the house and they knocked on the door and said, "Hey, we wanna come in and get some of that gold." And the first...not easy to do but, you know, the people of Bristol Bay and all of us, we slammed the door with the permit denial. We said, "No, Pebble. You can't do it. That's not a good plan. We don't want your mine here." So, we shut the door. And then with these Clean Water Act protections that recently...I think we were able to lock the door, right.
Like, Pebble's still out there outside of the house. The gold's still in the house. We lock the door. And that provides a little bit of room, a little bit of safety, right, from a giant mine that people don't want.
Tom: Right.
Nelli: The house is still full of gold, right. Like, we have tons of thousands of square miles of land that very likely has valuable minerals underneath it. So, we wanna figure out how we better safeguard that area so that the next, you know, Pebble Mine doesn't figure out how to get through the window or something else. And so, developing some safeguards that will provide durable watershed wide protection is definitely something we're looking at and continuing to talk with partners locally and in the state on what's possible.
And then the third thing is, you know, really figuring out how we can support a sustainable and regenerative economy in Bristol Bay. There's already amazing things happening out there but, you know, working through programs like the Bristol Bay Guide Academy which Orvis has been a supporter of TU's been involved in and the local land trust and Bristol Bay Native Corporation is still working on how we...how to train youth so that they...local youth so that they can be employed in the sport fishing and recreational...tourism industry. So, you know, that also is a really important piece of the puzzle, right, is...so the next time, you know, some economic opportunity comes across the radar of Bristol Bay, there's not a temptation, right, to say yes to a project like Pebble that maybe doesn't align with subsistence and culture and local values. But, you know, it's tempting, right, because everyone needs jobs and, you know, a source of income and the more we can do...be creative about programs that support jobs that are based on healthy rivers and salmon, the more we insulate against future proposals being able to get a foot in the door.
So that was a lot but we still have a lot of work to do.
Tom: No. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's gonna be, you know, it's gonna be a forever project, really, isn't it? It's gonna be constant vigilance, yeah.
Nelli: It might be. I was just kind of chuckling the other day when someone said, "If someone would've told you 14 years ago you would be, you know, fighting a mine for 14 years as your career," I would've probably laughed or, you know, shook my head and said, "No way." But I think one of the lessons is that conservation is a long game but it's worth it, right.
Tom: Yeah.
Nelli: Like, every single piece of...every single comment folks made, every single person who helped spread the word and businesses that spread the word really made a difference. And it's a long game.
Tom: Yeah. It's a long game and it needs everybody involved. For sure.
Nelli: Absolutely.
Tom: So, in your dreams, Nelli, what would you wanna see happen to the...what could happen to the entire Bristol Bay watershed? What kinda protection could there be? Is there anything that exists today that you would like to see in your wildest dreams?
Nelli: Yeah. I guess there's a couple of tools in the toolbox that I think are important to explore. You know, a few...many years ago, actually, the state legislature recognized the Bristol Bay region as part of the Bristol Bay Fisheries Reserve and that back in the day recognized that, you know, oil and gas in that area would jeopardize the fishery and that functionally made at least on state lands oil and gas off limits in the Bristol Bay Fisheries Reserve. So, there's certainly some things to maybe look at there.
A few years ago, also there was a... state lands have management plans that are developed every decade or two and kind of put the guidance out there on how lands should be managed. And a lot...well, in Bristol Bay, it's managed by the Bristol Bay Area Plan. And there are opportunities within that plan, I think, to better align the management with the interest of local people and, you know, existing industries and make sure that we're not making decisions on our state lands that might compromise, you know, all the good things that those lands do for the public already.
So those are two pieces. Senator Murkowski has recognized the importance of this watershed for salmon and jobs and local people and, you know, I think there is opportunity to continue the conversation with her office on what federal measures could be taken whether that's legislation. But ultimately there's hundreds of...well, there's tens of thousands of acres, perhaps millions of acres out there that are open to mineral leasing right now and until those mineral leases are retired, you know, there's still a chance that another Pebble could get their foot in the door.
Tom: Are those mineral leases on state land, federal land?
Nelli: Both. Both.
Tom: Both.
Nelli: State land and in some cases, BLM land. Those are the two primary landowners.
Tom: In the Bristol Bay region, do you have any idea, like, what ballpark percentage is state land, federal land and then tribal land and private land?
Nelli: That is a great question. State land is the largest.
Tom: Okay.
Nelli: You know, by acreage. I don't have the breakdowns off the top of my head. So, state lands. BLM land owns several million acres of land out there. And then the rest of it is kind of smaller parcels of land that are owned by a variety of folks. There's...Bristol Bay Native Corporation owns a lot of land, both surface and subsurface land...valuable materials. And then there's local village corporations that own lands and then private, you know, private entities.
Tom: Okay. Okay.
Nelli: Vast majority is public land.
Tom: Okay. So, it's the state...probably the regulations that happen at the state level are gonna be the most critical.
Nelli: Yep, yep. I definitely think state and federal involvement is the course for taking a larger look for watershed wide safeguards. And then there's also really, you know, another very big deal was the Conservation Fund and the Pedro Bay Village Corporation recently put in... placed a conservation easement on about 40 million acres of private land in the headwaters of Iliamna and right along the Pebble's proposed transportation corridor. And that's a very big deal. That's a very, very big deal. I'm very proud of the Pedro Bay Village Corporation for having that foresight and commitment to conserving salmon habitats and there were a lot of entities that supported the creation of those conservation easements when Bristol Bay Heritage Land Trust has been a huge, huge leader. And making sure those kinda key areas are able to...private lands, on the private land side are able to have conservation measures put in place.
Tom: Wow. So, there's a groundswell that's occurring around this issue. That's fantastic.
Nelli: Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. It's been really another inspiring piece, right, as everybody is looking around and figuring out how they can do their part and making it happen.
Tom: Yeah. Well, Nelli, thank you for your 14 years of pain and suffering and for all the other people that, you know...all different organizations at all levels that have won this victory. And we should all be proud of the tiny part that we contributed. You know, everybody that wore a stop Pebble Mine button or whatever, you know. It took a lot of people to make this happen.
Nelli: Absolutely, Tom. It's been such an honor. I feel so lucky to get to do this work. And, you know, looking in the past, right, we...so many people have played such a huge role in this and it has brought an unlikely group of allies together and to advocate for something that's very important to everyone across the board. And that doesn't happen very often. And you have commercial fishermen and women and anglers and local tribes standing up and saying, "We don't want this mine in this place." That comes with such incredible power and then have people from all over the world really and certainly all over the country echoing that and amplifying that. It's a really big deal. I'm honored to have done a little bit of it and definitely glad that TU [inaudible 01:08:39] stepped in to help out when we did. But we're not done yet, Tom. I think that's the big message. Like, it's...we need to stick together and if folks can stick with us, I think we have some great things we can accomplish in the next four or five years. And then really be able to get excited about a really bright future for Bristol Bay that's based on [inaudible 01:09:07] and I think that gives me a lot of hope and we have to keep the momentum going.
Tom: Oh, we will. I have great confidence in that we will.
Nelli: I think so too. I think so too. We've gotten this far and we can't stop now.
Tom: Yep. All right, Nelli. Well, I wanna thank you for taking the time today to talk to us and answer my questions and fill us in. And, again, we've been talking to Nelli Williams, Alaska Coordinator for Trout Unlimited. Thanks, Nelli.
Nelli: Yeah, you're welcome. My pleasure, Tom.
Tom: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at