15 Tips for Fishing Emergers, with Pat Dorsey
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Guide" podcast. This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer and my guest this week is my old friend, Pat Dorsey. Pat is one of the most experienced and highly regarded walk wade guides in the Rocky Mountains. And, you know, if you're gonna be talking about bugs and flies and how to fish them, Pat's the man. And I get a lot of questions about emergers. People are uncertain about emergers which are kind of a nymph, kind of a dry, kind of in between, kind of a wet fly and exactly how to fish them and how to recognize when fish are taking emergers. So, I thought we'd get Pat on to talk about his experienced with emergers. And it's interesting that Pat and I, both people who have been around the block a little bit and have fished a lot of emergers approach it in different ways and actually have different techniques. So, it's good to have a differing opinion on how to fish these things.
Pat talks about the major flies that we fish emergers to, midges, caddisflies and mayflies and it's mainly the caddisflies where Pat and I differ in our approaches. So, I think you'll find that interesting. Anyway, stay tuned for my podcast with Pat Dorsey on emergers.
But first, we're gonna do the Fly Box, whether you like it or not. You can skip to Pat's interview if you want. We give you the timecode if you don't wanna hear these questions. But the Fly Box is where you ask me questions or you offer tips for other listeners and you can either type your question into an email or you can attach a voice file. Either way works for me. And I do read all of them. I don't answer all of them but I do read all of them.
So, let's start with an email. And the first one is a tip from Rob. Casting lefthanded. Every so often I have to cast leftie thanks to some shoulder and elbow damage due to years of competitive judo. I found a solid leftie roll cast is pretty good in most situations but when I do need a proper cast, I really open up the loop so I can watch the line and get the timing. Not as good as my right arm but I'll take it at the end of the day when it flares up but I'm not done on the water. Give it a shot. Then start to tighten up the loop as it gets more comfortable.
Well, thank you, Rob. That's a great tip. And yeah, it does require rebuilding that muscle memory to cast with your non dominant hand. But it can be done. Especially if you find yourself in a situation where casting is tight or if you have an injury in one side or the other. So, appreciate that.
Here's an email from Drew from Pennsylvania. With all this Canadian wildfire smoke and air being blown down to the northeast I was wondering how the air quality affected streams and trout. I know trout need good water quality but does the change in air quality affect them at all? Would catching them in these poor air quality conditions be harmful? I also had a question about exploring creeks or blue lining. I recently took a trip out to a stream that was designated by the state as native brook trout but found nothing and barely even got my fly wet. How do I know if just that section of the creek doesn't have fish, the entire thing doesn't have fish or I'm just not able to catch them? Thanks for your podcast and your life's work helping other anglers.
So Drew, regarding the air quality issue, I don't believe it's going to affect trout. They don't breathe air. They breathe oxygen but it's oxygen that's dissolved in the water. And I don't think that the current air quality problems are gonna extend to the water air interchange in a stream. So, I don't know for sure because we've never really had to pose this question before but I don't think it's gonna harm the trout. You should just take the usual precautions to release trout unharmed.
Regarding those native brook trout streams, there is really no way to tell other than to fish them or electroshock them but you're not gonna be doing that. My advice is if the stream contains brook trout, they may not be everywhere. They may just be in the upper reaches or they may be down lower if the upper reaches get really, really thin and dry. You know, we're in a drought now in the northeast and if the upper reaches get a little too thin and there isn't enough dept to afford the trout some protection, then they'll drop down lower. So, my advice to you would be to just move around a lot. And, you know, if there's wild brook trout in there and you don't spook them, they're probably gonna either splash at your fly or take your fly. They're not very particular. They don't have a lot of food and anything that looks relatively buggy, they're gonna at least take a pass at. So, you don't see anything right away, you don't spook any fish, you don't see any fish rising to your flies, then I would just move around a lot. And the only other thing to do is if you come back during the summer time when a lot of waters are warm, take a water temperature and if it's above 70...you know, if it's 68 or above, the brook trout probably moved higher up in the watershed to get to cooler water where you're closer to groundwater. But really the only way to tell is go out there and explore and that's really the fun of chasing these wild brook trout, is finding out where they are and how many of them there are in any particular stretch of creek.
Kip: Hey, Tom. It's Kip in Utah. Hey, I appreciate you taking my question last fall about the spooked trout and the scream that they make. I hope that gave you as good a chuckle as it gave me. Question about a river drainage that has invasive species. So, I fished in a little drainage that I know the local fishing clubs have worked hard to get the cutthroat, native cutthroat restored and the browns out of there and they've built structures trying to get the browns out. But I was fishing it yesterday and caught a couple of browns. And I thought about taking them home but I don't bring a creel. I don't even bring a knife to clean fish and so I guess my dilemma was, one, do I bunk these fish and take them home and, you know, they might be kinda spoiled by the time I'm home. Do I just put them back? Do I just throw them up on the bank, let them die? Anyway, I put them back. Didn't seem much sense in doing the other two. But just wondered how you might handle that or maybe I just start bringing a creel when I go to those drainages. Love to hear your thoughts. Thanks, Tom.
Tom: So, Kip, couple things to bear in mind here. One is that you're never gonna remove a brown trout population from a stream with angling pressure. They're just too well adapted and too wary. And so, you're...you know, by keeping brown trout in that stream where they really wanna have native cutthroats, you're neither gonna help nor harm the situation. You might even harm it actually by keeping brown trout because that will open up a little bit of a niche for some of the smaller fish to grow up and repopulate.
So, the one thing I wouldn't do is just leave them on the bank. It seems a waste of a wild fish to just throw it on the bank. Yeah, you can argue that the mink and the raccoons and the turkey vultures are gonna get to it and eat it but it just seems a waste. The best thing to do...you know, if you wanna keep trout for dinner, certainly...you're not gonna do the stream any harm or any good but if you wanna keep trout for dinner, it's a good opportunity to do it without any guilt because you don't want those brown trout in there. Although you're not gonna do much good. You still can keep some trout without guilt. My advice to you would be to, you know, carry a creel or put the fish in a plastic bag, in a wet cloth or something. Creel is really the best thing to keep them cool. Or keep a cooler in your vehicle and once you catch the fish, clean them immediately. You know, clean them, get the gills out, get the guts out and put them in a cooler where they'd stay cool. But you wanna clean them immediately.
The other option is to just keep fish toward the end of the day when...and again, clean them right away and just put them in a plastic bag and get them home as quickly as you can because trout do spoil quite quickly.
This one's from Linus from Oklahoma. Hey, Tom. In the past, I've asked many questions. I wanna thank you for answering them. Today I have a tip. My tip pertains to untangling fly line. When you get a nasty tangle, it's bound to happen at some point, I find it helpful to grab the tangle and pull it apart repeatedly instead of just following a single piece through until you reach the other side. This gives you much more room to work with and allows you to disentangle it that much faster. It may sound counterintuitive but it has helped me many times when I've gotten my fly line hopelessly tangled. Try it out and I hope it will help you out next time you get tangled.
Well, thank you, Linus. That is a good tip. And I do that regularly. Sometimes I make it worse but most of the time, it is a good idea to kinda open those loops up and find out. Usually, the flies...a loop is wound around itself so you can usually get at it pretty easily if you move it apart a little bit. So, thank you.
Here's an email from Corey. I was at a remote, low pressured river in northern Maine during Memorial Day Weekend. Simple, traditional nymphs, beadhead, hair's ears, pheasant tail, caddis larva, etc. We were catching an abundance of smaller, native brookies but I was noticing a trend that the bigger trout were being caught at the tail end of the pool and as my nymphs slowly started to rise at the end of the drift. Yet when I adjusted to drift over them, I wasn't having the same aggressive reaction. They love that emerging action. I'm fairly new to the nymph style fishing so I couldn't quite figure out how to consistently key in on this bigger trout behavior and really just got lucky with it a few times. What would you might've done?
Well, Corey, that's the fun part of fly fishing is when we kinda mistakenly discover a different way of catching fish. And so that's why, you know, everyone recommends that the more you fish, the better you're gonna get. And you discovered that in this particular day the bigger trout wanted a fly that was swinging in the current or rising to the surface. And, you know, no guarantee that if you come back the next day, they'll be doing the same thing. But now you know in a situation like that it's worth a try. And what I would've done if I found that they were taking the fly on the swing or rising toward the surface, first of all, if I was fishing with an indicator, I would've taken the indicator off. I find that swinging flies with an indicator...the indicator makes a lot of disturbance and it kinda wobbles and, yeah, it might give the flies some extra action but I found that swinging flies when you've got an indicator on the line doesn't work as well. So, I would've taken the indicator off and kinda cast quartering downstream, maybe make a little bit of a mend to sink the flies and then just let it swing, let the line tighten and let it swing on a tight line.
The other thing you could've done which is fun and is a different way of fishing is you could've taken your nymphs off and put a couple of wet flies on the end of your leader. Usually, you want the second fly to be on a separate dropper when you're swinging wet flies. It just seems to work better. You might wanna look at a podcast I did a few weeks ago with Steve Culton about swinging wet flies. But if the fish are telling you that they want a fly that's swung or rising to the surface, then sometimes fishing a pair or even three wet flies can be a good technique. So, try it, see how it works for you.
Michael: Hi, Tom. Michael from Vermont here. On a previous episode of the podcast with Ian Rutter, you mentioned that you thought it would be unethical for a fly fisher to return to a spot they had been previously guided to. I understand the dilemma, bringing another guide to a fly-fishing spot that someone else has shown you but I can't really understand the ethical issue with returning on your own, especially if that spot is on public land. If you could expand on your thoughts so that I don't accidently find myself in front of an ethics tribunal, that would be great.
I have another question about getting started in fly tying. For a beginner fly tier on a limited budget, there are a lot of tempting and low-cost options available on eBay. Are there any things that I should be aware of or wary of when it comes to secondhand materials and tools? Thanks, Tom.
Tom: So, Michael, you know, it's always a judgment call and it depends on your own personality and how heavily fished the waters are in your area. But here's my take on it. If a guide takes you to a spot in a famous trout stream that's pretty well-known and shows you a spot, I think it's fair game to return to that spot and fish it on your own. The place that...the situation that would bug me a bit...and I wouldn't do this. If a guide took me to a small or remote stream where most people wouldn't think of fishing and showed you that area, I would kinda...I think it's kinda unethical to go back to that unknown stream because the guide probably uses it as a, you know, a safety valve when he or she has a client that, you know, that maybe have...struggling catching fish. A lot of times these small streams are easier to catch fish in. And, you know, it would probably bug the guide if the guide drove up and found you in that spot. So that's how I would deal with it. But, you know, it's really up to you. It's up to how you feel about it but that's how I would approach the situation.
Regarding buying stuff on eBay, I would say, in general, don't. Buying tools on eBay, you never know how...you know, you buy a pair of used scissors on eBay and they're probably not gonna be any good because they're worn out. You know, buying a used fly-tying vice on eBay, you don't know what shape it's in, how we'll it's gonna hold the hook. And buying natural materials on eBay, boy, you know, you don't know how well those materials have been kept and they might have bugs in them. They might have dermestid beetles or moths or something in them that you would introduce to the rest of your materials. When you buy fly tying materials from a reputable fly shop or online from a reputable place, you know that those are gonna be clean and they're not gonna have any critters in them. But just buying something on eBay that somebody's had laying around in their fly-tying table, I wouldn't.
You know, synthetic materials are probably safe. So, if you find some synthetic materials at a bargain on eBay, that's probably about the only safe thing to buy, in my opinion, anyway. So, hope that helps.
Here's an email from Tom. I recently went blue lining for the first time in Central Colorado and spent the majority of the day handrailing a narrow stream looking for trouty pockets. I only found success in one stretch where the stream ran through a relatively flat meadow. This got me wondering if I can better identify inclines that are viable for holding trout. That is how much of an incline can trout live or feed in. Surely, they're not limited to just flat water, especially the brook trout. Keep the content coming. I love the discussions about fly fishing during my daily commute.
So, Tom, in general, when I'm fishing a small stream like that, I try to avoid the real steep inclines unless there's a big rock or something that forms a pocket. Trout like to be in water that runs between one to two feet per second and that's fairly slow water. And they can find these pockets in, you know, deeper pools and along...in front of rocks and behind rocks a little bit, a little ways behind rocks. But if it's a straight shoot, if it's just a straight shot with no break from the current in those steep inclines, then I'd probably pass them up. So, you know, they need a foot or two of water and they need some sort of protection whether it's deeper water or a rock or a log somewhere close to them and that one to two feet per second moving water. So that's probably why you found them in the flat areas because that's where the water slowed down. Probably got a little deeper in those flatter stretches. And, you know, the velocity was a little more conducive to holding trout. So that's the best advice I can give you. Hope it helps.
Here is an email from John. I appreciate your podcast and was very much looking forward to the recent podcast with my favorite fly-fishing author, John Gierach regarding climate change. Perhaps I had the wrong expectation but I was disappointed with the podcast. I was hoping that it would focus more on what we as individual anglers can do to help limit climate change effects. You did at one point ask about fishing closer to home but also talked about high climate impact trips to Labrador. Overall, there was little discussion of individual responsibility or actions. I think there is an opportunity for the fly-fishing community and industry to have a positive impact in limiting climate change. Perhaps another podcast that addresses climate change in terms of industry and individual angler initiatives would be beneficial.
Well, thank you, John. Appreciate your comments. And I expected that I would get some reaction like this to the podcast. But my view on it was you can open the newspaper or magazines or listen to the radio and every day all day long and hear about what we can do to mitigate climate change. I don't think there's anything that fly fishers can specifically do that you can't as an ordinary citizen do. You know, it's a worldwide, environment wide problem. It's not...certainly not just limited to trout streams. And maybe I'm wrong in this. We have discussed climate change before in the podcast. And we'll continue to do so. And I hope to keep it top of people's minds but it's a much bigger issue than I'm comfortable discussing on the podcast. So, I took a little bit different [inaudible 00:21:22] and realizing that we're all dealing with climate change right now thought we would talk about how we can, you know, how we can work around it and still live our lives and still fish for the fish we wanna fish for. So, appreciate your comments and will continue to discuss climate change but probably won't do a podcast specifically about climate change.
Here's an email from Ethan from Massachusetts. I recently purchased a 3 weight 10-foot 6-inch euro rod and was wondering what type of fly line to buy. I currently use a euro nymphing kit with about 20 feet of fly line plus a sighter leader and tippet by Scientific Anglers. I attach this to my backing. I mostly fish small trout streams in Massachusetts where the leader is the only line out. The setup works great for me but I want once a month to get out to Farmington River in Connecticut and would love to switch to dry flies or dry droppers without switching rods. Is there a line you'd recommend that will cast a dry fly decently and give me more distance just by switching out my leader? Should I go with a standard three weight fly line or get something like the Hydros Tactical Nymph? Thanks for the advice and everything this podcast provides.
Well, Ethan, yeah. I do this myself regularly. You know, I have a euro rod set up but I just keep a standard three weight line, either the superfine line or the pro trout line in a three weight works really well on those euro rods and works really well for dry flies. And when I encounter a situation or wanna fish dries, I just take the tactical leader off which is gonna be, you know, 20 feet or longer and just attach a 9- or 12-foot standard leader and go to it. So, I don't think you need any specialized line. It's a good three weight rod. Most of these tactical rods are pretty good with a standard floating line. And I wouldn't underline or overline it. I'd just go with a regular three weight line.
Here's an email from Jaylen. First, I have a 10-foot 3 weight euro specific rod that I usually run a full mono rig with. I threw some old floating line on it and it casts surprisingly well. Now I wanna get a premium line to use for dry fly fishing more often. What type of taper works best in these euro rods? Should I underline or overline it? Would it be better, would a double taper be better than a weight forward?
Jaylen, see question above. Big question this week. And I don't think it really matters whether you use a double taper or weight forward unless you're casting over 35 feet with that 10-foot 3 weight and probably...you're probably not gonna do that. If you do, if you roll cast a lot long line, you probably want a double taper. If you're gonna be overhead casting with a dry fly, you probably want a weight forward. Either one will work, though.
Second question. I've been tying and fishing lots of Kelly Galloup style articulated streamers. Sometimes I'll tie them hook point up because that seems to help me avoid snagging on the bottom. I noticed seeing others don't generally do that for bait fish patterns. Is there a reason for that? Better action? Less damage to the fish when it gets eaten?
Well, Jaylen, I think you answered your question. And I think you're right. You know, it's sometimes a matter of...I know that with certain articulated flies, people like to hook point down. They feel it gives them better action. And, you know, with the hook point down, you're going to almost always hook the fish in the lower jaw which is less damaging to the fish. If you hook them with a... particularly a big hook in the upper jaw, you're gonna start to get closer to their brain and their eyes and their nostrils and that's probably gonna hurt them more than hooking them on the lower jaw which is mostly, you know, tendon and tissue. So, I think it's a matter of both. But it's probably...mainly action. Probably mainly the action of the fly because, you know, the second hook, whether it's up or down, does change the action slightly on a fly, on an articulated fly.
Here's an email from James. Hey, Tom. With the lack of rain we have here in Kentucky, a lot of the smallmouth streams I fish are extremely low. They're running mid to upper 70s for water temps. Air temp is in the low 90s. I know smallmouth is a warmwater fish and can handle higher temps but is there anything I need to watch in handling them with low water and higher temps?
Well, James, you know, I've kinda researched this question before and we haven't really been able to determine the upper limit for smallmouth bass but I would imagine it's in the high 80s water temperature. And, you know, the love...smallmouth like warm water and warmer water. So, I don't think you have to worry unless you get really, really hot water. And handling them in, you know, low water and higher water temps is the same as we would do for any other fish. Use barbless hooks if you can and limit your handling time and limit the time that you play the fish. Get them in quickly, get the hook out quickly, hold them up for a brief picture if you want. No more than 15 seconds. And get them back in the water.
Here's an email from Tyler from Oregon. I have yet to attempt to tie a single fly on my own nor do I have any of the equipment necessary to tie my own flies. It is a skill that I wanna learn at some point in my life but I am conflicted about the timing of when to start this new hobby. Right now, with the demands of medical school and my young family, I feel all my free time is dedicated to either time with the wife and dog plus the occasional fishing trip. Do you think I should strive to start tying my own flies now while in medical school or is this something that can wait? I've heard from a few fellow anglers that tying your own flies increases success and catch rates but I also remember another angler telling me his grandpa never tied a fly in his life and still had great success and caught fish just as well as those who did tie their own flies. Should I sacrifice some of my already limited time to be on the water now to learn to tie flies to be more successful or is this skill something that can wait until after medical school is finished and I have more time?
I feel that at this stage of my life I would prefer to maximize my time on the water but if learning to tie my own flies greatly increases my catch rates and thus fun while fishing, I think it might be worth sacrificing some fishing time. Or is tying flies something fly anglers do because they enjoy it versus homemade flies magically catching exponentially more fish? What would you do in my situation? Thanks again, Tom. Hope you can answer my question and thanks again for all you do for the amazing sport of fly fishing.
So, Tyler, I've got news for you. Tying your own flies is not gonna greatly increase your success rate catching fish. The commercial flies that we buy today are just so beautifully tied, so well tied, so durably tied and, you know, it's hard to find a pattern that you can't find commercially. You know, I sincerely believe that most of us tie our own flies because we love doing it, we love catching fish on tying our own flies. Now there are some benefits to tying your own flies. I think you'll understand the construction of flies better and I think you'll understand which fly to pick maybe a little bit better. And also, you know, if you do wanna modify an existing pattern as a fly tier you have that flexibility to do it. But it's more...it's really more of an added bonus to fly fishing. And again, I think you'll understand fly fishing a little bit better but if you've got limited time...I mean, I've known people that didn't start tying flies until they were in their 60s and they got very good at it very quickly. So, it's certainly something you can put aside for later. And I don't think you're gonna sacrifice much fish catching success by not tying your own flies.
Now, that being said, if you can, it doesn't take that long to learn how to tie flies. And if you can find a little time, maybe downtime in the offseason when you're not fishing, I believe fly tying is a great stress reliever. It's very relaxing. It's very meditative. And, you know, being in medical school, there's a lot of stress and you might find fly tying to be good therapy. But that's up to you. But don't worry about not tying flies right away. You can get into it at any time in your life and I think you'll enjoy it.
Here's an email from...and I forgot to write down the name. I apologize for that. I've done a lot of listening to back episodes of the podcast while working in the yard. I recently listened to one that talked about a fly-tying book with a small number of modern flies, 12 to 14, to help new tyers learn. It stands out because you had a laugh about it not having a wooly bugger in it. I've searched the archives high and low and cannot find it again. Can you point me in the right direction?
Question two. What is the difference between your books, "Prospecting for Trout" and "Finding Trout" and how do they relate?
Well, first of all, the book that we were referring to in the podcast was the one I did with Tim Cammisa and the book is called "Fly Tying for Everyone". It's a great book. So hopefully that'll help you track it down. I'm sure it's available in your local bookstore or online. I know it is. Maybe not in your local bookstore but I know it's available online.
The difference between my two books, "Prospecting for Trout"...well, there's a... first of all, there's about 30...at least 30 years of difference between the two books. And, you know, I like to think I've learned a little bit in 30 years. So, the "Prospecting for Trout" book is about more technique and it's about fishing for trout when there's no hatch. So, what do you do when there's no hatch? "Finding Trout" is all about finding a trout stream, finding the right stretch of a trout stream to fish and then reading the water to find trout. And that can be useful during hatch periods and non-hatch periods. There is some technique in finding trout. There's a lot more about trout feeding habits and water chemistry and water temperature in "Finding Trout" than there is in "Prospecting for Trout". So anyway, hope that helps you decide.
Drew: Hi, Tom. This is Drew in Southwestern Idaho. I hope you're having a great time with the podcast. I know that your listeners love it, at least from the folks that I talk to. It's amazing to have such a wise person on pretty much any platform to speak on fly fishing and give us that wisdom. So, thank you for that.
My question today pertains to fly line. My fly line that I've been using, I've been using for the last two, three years which is about as long as I've been fly fishing...with the nuance of being a new fly fisherman, I didn't know that you can't cut the welded loop of the ends of your fly lines. So, I have two or three floating lines with no welded loops and all of them like to take on water. Is there any way to reweld loops onto the end of those and preserve the life of the fly line if there are no other injuries to it or is it going to be compromised and need to be replaced? Thanks again for listening to my question and I hope you have a great one. God bless.
Tom: So, Drew, I don't know who told you that you can't cut a welded loop off a fly line but you can and you often have to because sometimes they fail, sometimes they wear out, you know, with a lot of big fish, a lot of stress on their plastic coating. Sometimes it gets cut. And you can absolutely cut the welded loop off and put a nail knot on there.
Now I don't think you're gonna get much water absorption into the core of your fly line if you put a nail knot in there. First of all, the nail knot's gonna compress that coating around the core and it's gonna pretty much seal up the rest of the line. If it really bothers you, before you tie a nail know or after...actually, after you tie the nail knot and you clip off a little piece of fly line, put a drop of superglue in the...at the end of the fly line. That should seal it up pretty well. I've never had what I thought was a problem of fly lines absorbing water after I put a nail knot on them. So, you know, go ahead. Put a nail knot on and go fishing and it'll work fine for you.
All right. That's a Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Pat Dorsey about fishing emergers.
So, my guest today is the great Pat Dorsey and Pat and I have a long history together. I don't know how long it's been, Pat. Maybe 40 years or so that we've known each other and occasionally fished together. We don't fish together as often as I'd like because you're always busy guiding. But Pat is one of the most highly respected fly fishers in the Rocky Mountain area certainly and probably in the country and also has the notable accomplishment of having the most beautiful fly boxes in the world.
Pat: That's very kind of you. I certainly enjoy fly tying and consider that to be the next part of the addiction.
Tom: Yeah. I could never forget the first time I saw one of your fly boxes. I was just blown away and I feel very insecure every time I see one of your loaded fly boxes with every fly neatly lined up. It makes me feel kinda depressed and insecure, Pat.
Pat: So, it's a fun part of the sport. That's for sure.
Tom: Yeah, yeah. It sure is. So, we're gonna talk about emergers today because...I understand that a lot of people are confused by emergers and exactly what they are and how to fish them and I get that...you know, I get questions often on the podcast about emergers so I thought who would be better than Pat Dorsey to talk about emergers on the podcast. And we've got about 15 tips, right? And then some recommended fly patterns.
Pat: Absolutely. You know, I think the cool thing about fly fishing is...for me anyway, you just never quit learning. And, you know, I've learned, you know, more by not catching a particular fish than I have by catching a fish. So, you know, you just...hopefully people will benefit from my failures because I certainly have.
Tom: We all have many times.
Pat: I think, you know, fly fishermen...you know, as a general rule, they have a tendency to outthink themselves. And I think, you know, observation is so important part of watching hatches at any level, you know, any part of the water column or zone. And so, you know, observation is really critical because it helps you identify, you know, what bug the fish are feeding. But more particularly, you know, the behavior of the fish. It helps you identify, you know, whether they're taking that bug in the surface film, just below the surface or on the surface. You know, just watching the fish, watching their behavior is a critical part of determining that information.
Tom: Do you wanna talk about a little bit about rise forms first in general and how you attempt to figure out which stage of an insect they're taking?
Pat: Yeah, you know, I mean, for midges, you know, I mean, having been on the South Platte for most of my fly-fishing career...I mean, I've had to become a master at midge fishing and that really means, you know, fishing at all levels. I mean, from the larva to the adult. But, you know, fishing those pupae or those midge emergers certainly is one of the most technical parts, I think, of the game. Just being able to, first of all, identify that a hatch is in progress and then once again, you know, there's nothing more exciting than stumbling upon, you know, a pod of rising fish. And furthermore, is trying to determine are they taking adults or are they taking those emergers, you know, right below the surface film.
So, you know, I've learned a lot just by observation, you know, watching that rise form as you can well attest.
Tom: Yeah. So, tell us what to look for, Pat.
Pat: You know, so, you know, when you come upon those fish a lot of times, you know, you'll see...particularly with midges, you'll see just the back of the fish. Instead of that classic, you know, head to tail rise, you're seeing more of that smutting rise form. And that tells you that, you know, just by observation, that those fish are taking something, you know, right below the surface film which becomes really, really technical. I mean, and difficult to fool those fish.
And, you know, so I found success in a lot of ways, you know, fishing, you know, trailing shuck midges, stillborn patterns but one that I've really come to appreciate is...my old partner Jim Cannon who you know very, very well, his snowshoe suspender midge is absolutely deadly when trout are feeding on midge emergers because it just hangs right there in the surface film. It's got that nice tuft of snowshoe rabbit that suspends that midge emerger right in the surface film precisely where you'll find those fish feeding.
So that's no doubt one of your go-to patterns.
Tom: And you fish that like a dry fly, right? You fish it the same as you would a dry fly?
Pat: I fish it just like a dry fly because it is a snowshoe. You need to stay away from traditional paste floatants and you wanna use, you know, a powder of some sort. And I like to take, you know, some crystals and pack that wing and then it just sits right in that surface film. And the crystals also add a little bit of visibility to that pattern.
Tom: Yeah.
Pat: Typically, you know, fishing most of the time conventional dry fly tactics. You know, casting to individual fish as opposed to flock shooting is gonna really stack the odds in your favor.
Tom: And do you not put any floatant on the rest of the fly? Do you just put it on the wing?
Pat: I just put it in the wing and I want that...in this particular case, he's got a little trailing shuck on there and he's got a nifty little [inaudible 00:42:35] abdomen. So that allows that abdomen...basically he's displaying part of the fly below the surface and then the wing is on the surface as that midge is trying to use its legs and actually push itself out of that nymphal shuck to become an adult.
Tom: And it also gives you something to see on the water which is pretty important.
Pat: It is. You know, I mean, we're talking a lot of times, you know, 22s, 24s depending upon the time of year, of course. One thing that you have to remember particularly out here in the Rockies is that we have that big spring midge. We call it the gorilla midge and it's typically a size 18. So, it's not always that you have to fish those little itty-bitty midges. Sometimes the midges can be quite large.
Tom: And sometimes they can be pretty tiny.
Pat: Yeah, they can...I mean, we see them, you know, down to a 26 at times.
Tom: Yeah.
Pat: Particularly in the winter, you know. I often tell people, you know, "The difference between catching fish and not catching fish in, you know, December, January, can be fish in a 24 instead of a 26. Or 24 instead of a 22, excuse me."
Tom: Wow. Wow. So, let's talk about the emergers of some of the other insect groups. How about caddisflies?
Pat: Yeah, caddisflies, you know, I think...obviously, you know, we have some really great caddisflies hatches out here in the Rocky Mountain West. It's no secret that we have that famed Mother's Day caddis hatch and that can reflect on...I bet it's been 20 or 25 years ago when you and I fished with Don [inaudible 00:44:34] in the Arkansas during that caddis hatch. And that was a day I'll never forget. Great time and I sure enjoyed our time on the water. But I think, you know, to begin with as far as caddis, I mean, we all know that the freestones typically are gonna start, you know...their caddis hatches will be kinda late April into the first part of May. And that's kinda why the Mother's Day caddis hatch is, you know, is right around Mother's Day. And typically, you know, the high-water season is what's gonna, you know, bring that hatch to a screeching halt.
And then on our tailwaters, it's important to note...and I'm kinda probably talking more about that than the actual process but it's important to understand the timing of the hatches, I think, to be successful as well. But, you know, because of a tailwater situation, you know, most of those hatches are gonna [inaudible 00:45:32] you know, well into the summer months because of the cold water. As you know, I mean, 54 degrees is critical for those caddisflies to pupate. So, you know, time of year really helps let anglers kinda know what's going on as far as the caddis are concerned. And so, you know, with caddis, we're dealing with the pupa. And oftentimes, like many of the other, you know, very similar lifecycle as the midges, you know, that's...it's the behavior of the trout that really let me know that those fish are feeding on those caddis pupae right below the surface film. I'm looking at a much more aggressive rise form, boils near the surface and fish that are moving considerably greater distances to obtain those pupae prior to emergence.
Tom: Is that why they're making splashing rises, because they're having to move to grab the pupa?
Pat: Their emerging process is much faster. I mean, they're coming from the bottom and they're rocketing toward the surface for a lack of a better term. So, it's much more violent. And, you know, the behavior of the insect we're trying to imitate is...you know as well as anybody, you taught it for years. We taught in the Orvis schools, you know, on the size, the shape, the color is so critical when it comes to matching the hatch. But also imitating that behavior is another important attribute to that successful formula.
Tom: And how do you imitate that behavior?
Pat: A lot of times I like to allow the fly to swing. So, it's a great opportunity to, you know, present a wet fly, to present, you know, different patterns on the swing. It's very, very important to allow those flies to swing in the current. And a couple of my favorite ones are Barr's graphic caddis that...I can't even tell you how many fish I've caught on that river or that fly and rivers. It truly is amazing. And then Mike Mercer's swing nymphs. Those are...they're just a great, great fly. And, you know, you can fish those under a strike indicator but I like more of a traditional wet fly approach with the down and across and just allowing that fly to swing in the current.
Tom: Now how about when you're fishing a caddis, emerging caddis like a dry fly because I assume you don't always swing it and it doesn't always work, right?
Pat: No. You know, I mean, caddis are...they're interesting, you know, because whether you're fishing the pupa or the emerger there or you're fishing the adult, you know, it seems like sometimes it takes a little bit of experimentation. I know if I'm not getting a take on the dry fly, then I'll skate it and oftentimes it's that movement that triggers a strike. And I think that's what's really key with regard to those pupae, those emerging caddises is they...you have to have that uplifting pattern in the water column to simulate those emerging caddis.
Tom: So, you don't have as good a luck just dead drifting a caddis emerger or emerging pupa?
Pat: Yeah, I find that it fishes much better on the swing myself. And the good news is there it's really hard to mess up a caddis presentation because, you know, if they're dragging, they still hit it. It seems like that's just the behavior that's the most critical part of those caddis.
Tom: Now you said something interesting, that the caddis pupate at 54 degrees water temperature. Is that true for just the Mother's Day caddis or is that true for most of them? Do you know?
Pat: It's true for most of them.
Tom: Really? Interesting.
Pat: You know, most of the caddis experiences that I've had in my life...I mean, I've been, you know, a lot on the Gunnison River, a lot on the Arkansas River and then, you know, since the Hayman fire, you know, the South Platte when we had the Hayman fire and the water quality deteriorated, we have really good caddis hatches down at Deckers and Cheesman now which we didn't have, you know, several years ago. But, you know, Greg Felt was always just a great person to lean on as far as, you know, learning about caddis and I certainly had learned a lot about that. And as many people know, you know, those caddis hatches move upstream daily. So, you know, being in the right place at the right time is critical part of the success formula too.
Tom: That's interesting. I've always had, I think, better luck dead drifting an emerging caddis than fishing it like a dry fly and you say you've had better luck on the swing. So interesting observation there. Just goes to show you that you need to be flexible, right. If one doesn't work, you've gotta try the other. I'm gonna try swinging them more often.
Pat: You know, it's funny too because I look back. You know, growing up with my father and fishing the Gunnison River and, you know, I fished with, like, a fly in a bubble, you know, growing up like a lot of people did. And it really didn't make a whole lot of sense while I was catching fish, you know. You throw your bubble across the river and you reel it in and it's dragging, right. It's, like, why did that fish eat that?
Tom: Yeah.
Pat: And yet, I caught a lot of fish as a young boy kind of going against the grain really of the things that I teach every day, you know, when we kinda...the Gospel of the dead drift, right. I mean, that's...
Tom: Yeah, right, yeah.
Pat: And so, it's odd. I don't know. It just seems to me with caddis that it's...sometimes it's just...it's that swing, it's that movement that really makes the biggest difference.
Tom: Okay. And how about mayflies, mayfly emergers?
Pat: You know, an interesting thing about mayflies, you know, is they're really the heart and soul of fly fishing. Have been forever. I think you would agree with me on that, you know. And having a, you know, a thorough understanding of the nymph and the dun and the spinner is kinda really the heart and soul of fly fishing. And the interesting thing, you know, is the emerger stage is really not labeled as part of the lifecycle.
Tom: Yeah.
Pat: And it's an important part of the lifecycle as we all know because the emerger is neither a nymph or a dun. But what I've learned, you know, particularly fishing in Cheesman I think, you know, it's one of the most technically challenging trout fisheries anywhere, is just observation, like I said early on, is so important. And again, dead drift. So, you know, when I start to see those fish moving, starting to take those emergers, starting to chase those swimming nymphs, you know, then I'm aware that, you know, a hatch is in progress. And once again, you know, those emergers...I start to see those fish moving, you know. Midges, they're moving two, three inches either way but with caddis and mayflies like we're discussing now, I'll see fish in those glassy pools in Cheesman Canyon move, you know, upwards of 18 inches to chase those swimming nymphs, those emerging nymphs. And the thing that I learned early on was the behavior...once again, just, you know, by making mistakes, by you having a perfect dead drift, I noticed that oftentimes those presentations were getting ignored.
And when I did something like a [inaudible 00:54:39] lift or I used a chocolate foaming emerger that has, you know, a foam ring on it so that when it lifts in the current, it wobbles like a swimming mayfly nymph. I figured out that the behavior was more important than the fly itself. So, you know, we're kinda talking about that stage now where they're swimming to the surface to actually become a dun. And then, you know, so two patterns that I really rely on once we get to the surface film, you know, is gonna be Craig Mathews' sparkle dun which...I would say that's my go-to bug. I mean, it's got the trailing shuck. Just absolutely deadly. And then, you know, Quigley cripple, you know, which is a lot like Jim Cannon's pattern where it's displaying part of the emerger, you know, below the surface and part above.
So those are just two deadly flies when they're keying on those emergers. And, you know, and as you know as well as I do, you know, there's, you know, different varieties of mayflies in swimmers, crawlers, etc. And so, they all have slightly different characteristics. You know, PMDs are feeble swimmers but baetis are powerful swimmers. So, you kinda have to be knowing what particular mayfly you're dealing with as well.
Tom: Now during a mayfly hatch, Pat, how do you distinguish between a fish taking a dun, you know, a fully emerged dun and an emerger? What are the cues to going to a kind of a half wet, half dry fly?
Pat: I'm looking at the rise form once again.
Tom: Yep.
Pat: I mean, if I see the classic head to tail rise...in other words, I'm seeing the mouth of the fish coming up, physically grabbing the dun and then you see the back and then the tail go down. Then it's pretty safe to assume that they're taking the dun. But there's times when you just see a little bit of a surface disturbance and you're not actually seeing...you know, you're just seeing the back of the fish. There's times too, you know, when it's bright and sunny. You know, obviously, that's another important thing too, you know, when you're getting those really dense mayfly hatches when it's overcast. It's maybe a little bit on the drizzly side. But bright and sunny days, you know, I tend to see those fish eating, you know, a lot more of those emergers in the surface film, you know, versus those full-blown days when they're taking the duns. And obviously those overcast days, you know, that really stalls the development of those fish too. So, the dry fly fishing can be really, really good on those overcast days.
Tom: And on a sunny day, low humidity, the wings dry quicker and the flies get out of the shuck easier, do you think?
Pat: Yep. They just get off the water quicker. Yeah, exactly.
Tom: Yeah. So, they're not sitting on the water as long. Would you say that the emerger stage is generally the most important part of a mayfly hatch?
Pat: I think so. You know, I find that...like, my typical day...let's just talk an April day where, you know, first thing in the morning I need to fish midges and then typically the olives are gonna come off about 1:00 o'clock. So, I'm starting to switch gears about noon because I know that...you know, I know the emergers are gonna be really, really important part of fishing. And, you know, the RS2 invented by Rim Chung was born on the south of that river and may be one of the most versatile, you know, emerger patterns ever fished because you can fish it, like, you know, just a classic emerger. You can fish it in the film. It's a great fly. But I do think, you know, the emerger stage and I think that...you know, like, the foaming RS2, the sparkle wing RS2 and those RS2s... because of that little tuft, that little wing...so when that thing's, you know, lifting in the surface film, it is wobbling. It's wobbling like a swimming baetis and it really helps separate your imitation from the crowd, you know, because I just find that they don't eat the dead drifted ones nearly as well as stuff that's moving.
Tom: So, do you actually twitch your emergers to make them wobble like that?
Pat: I'll do...like, if I'm fishing an emerger...I mean, I guess we've really gotta clarify. If I'm fishing an emerger like a dry fly, I would not. But if I'm fishing an emerger on a strike indicator and allowing it to swing in the current, then I'm allowing it to swing and lift in the current and it's that wing that creates that wobble or that swing. Now if I'm fishing an emerger...let's just say like a, you know, a PMD emerger or something like that or a Quigley cripple. Then I would be fishing it more like a traditional dry fly like I did with the midges.
Tom: Do you ever fish emergers with, you know, a fly that just barely sinks like an unweighted fly that's not dressed on a leader with a little dry fly paste on or something so that the leader floats and the last few inches of it sink?
Pat: Yeah. I mean, we always call that the greased leader technique.
Tom: Yep.
Pat: And we would put the floatant on the entire leader with exception of that last 12 inches or so and just allow that pattern to sit right in the surface film, you know. And that's definitely a deadly tactic. I mean, use it with midges, use it with mayflies. And traditionally casting straight upstream. It seems like there's a lot more guesswork involved in that, you know. I mean, you're casting to specific fish and, you know, you really kinda lose a little bit of touch, I think, with your flies. So, if I see a rise anywhere in that general geographic locale, then I'm assuming that that fish took my fly.
Tom: Yeah. Now do you fish...ever fish an emerger behind a standard dry fly?
Pat: I do. I mean, I'll do...I like drying droppers. I think it's a super deadly tactic, you know, with all three aquatic insects that we've discussed. I mean, super effective with midges. Like, a Griffith gnat is my dry fly. And then, you know, 18 inches below that, then I'll fish, you know, some sort of a pupa or an emerger like my little top-secret midge. That's a great candidate to fish kind of right in the surface film because it's got the little tuft. It's got the pupal...you know, that bulbous thorax and it's got a really nice segmented body which is very representative of that emerger coming out of that shuck. So that's one of my favorite emergers. I mean, I fish the top-secret midge in a lot of different ways from just a classic nymphing rig to fishing it right in the surface film. So that's a deadly little approach. And obviously there's a lot of different patterns that you could use for that particular fly. I think, you know, one thing for me is a few years ago when I was out with a friend of mine, Tony, just watching those midges emerge. Like, if you really observe it...and you could watch them emerge. You can watch them crawling right out of their shuck right on the surface film.
It's pretty crazy. So having those trailing shuck midges is a really important part, I think, of imitating that hatch as well.
Tom: So, are you gonna tell us what the pattern is for the top-secret midge or is it top secret?
Pat: No, it's one of my best signature series with Umpqua. It's a super, super simple fly like all of my flies. I think you know that. Most of my flies are just a little bit of thread and a little bit of wire and a little bit, you know...but in this particular case, it's just tied on a Tiemco 2488. The abdomen is tied out of brown and white thread. It's a brown thread body rigged with white. And then the wing is a little tuft of glamour madeira which is just a little puff. And then the thorax is some brown superfine. So, it's imitating that final stage as it's going into the adult. I mean, right when the adult's using its legs to push itself out of that nymphal shuck.
Tom: What is the wing material again?
Pat: It's called glamour madeira.
Tom: I've never heard of it.
Pat: It's an embroidery thread. But it's just kind of a... it's kinda like a little tuft of ostrich herl but it's got, like, crystal flash in it. It's a nifty little product but it just imitates emerging wings really well. And I use those on my RS2 emergers as well. It's a slick little material.
Tom: Now on your top-secret midge, is the wing tied back over the body or is it tied forward like on Jim Cannon's fly?
Pat: No, it's tied back.
Tom: Aha, okay.
Pat: Yeah, it actually tilts back a little bit.
Tom: Yeah.
Pat: But, you know, like I said, you can fish it under a dry, you can nymph it, you can grease it. I mean, it's really a versatile fly. You know, I really figured out the importance of, you know, those trailing shuck midges too just a day when Tony and I were out there and it's interesting because when they're coming out of their shucks...I mean, those midges look like they're twice the size they actually are. And so, you know, those trailing shuck midge patterns I think can be an important part of matching the hatch as well.
Tom: Yeah. Boy, shucks have sure taken over the emerger, you know, post...I think Gary LaFontaine was the first one to really use a trailing shuck on a fly, if I'm not mistaken. And, boy, they've really taken over the emerger field, haven't they?
Pat: Yeah, they have. And if you sit and observe, you'll see why, you know. It's pretty crazy. I mean, I think sometimes, you know, we just don't pay enough attention to, you know, what's actually going on around us. We're more worried about catching a particular fish or this, that and the other. Then when you really dial it in and you really just sit there and look at that...and so, you know, I just came up with a new pattern called Pat's midge and it basically...it emulates that emerging midge, you know, but it has the trailing shuck on it.
Tom: Pat's midge. That's an innovative name.
Pat: Coming out soon.
Tom: I don't think Kelly Galloup would've named a fly like that. It would've been something else. Pat's midge. Are you gonna tell us what the pattern is for that one or is that top secret?
Pat: No, it's just got a little bit of a... it's got a trailing shuck. It's tied out of some kinda orangish brown Antron. It's got a thread abdomen. It's got a loop wing on it tied out of Zylon. It's got peacock herl and some grizzly hackle up front. And then it's got that nice little tuft that...you know, puff of that Zylon up front that imitates those antennae. So, I think it's representative of an adult midge, you know, coming out of that trailing shuck.
Tom: Aha. That sounds good. Pretty complicated for you, though. It's got, you know, like, four or five parts to it.
Pat: Yeah, it's a lot more complicated than most of my flies [crosstalk 01:08:14] But yeah. It just...I don't know. It's just that sometimes the light comes on and you really realize how important that trailing shuck is, you know. And my good friend, Matt Miles, you know, we go way back. And he had a pattern called Matt's midge and...
Tom: Yeah. That's a great one.
Pat: Yeah. The Orvis cataloged forever. Forever and ever.
Tom: Yeah.
Pat: And so, it's kind of a souped-up variation of Matt's pattern incorporating a little more detail in the wing and the antenna and incorporating that, you know, that trailing shuck behind it which I just feel more like that's super, super important part in imitating those midge emergers.
Tom: Yeah. And you make a good point that we tend to look at, like, a picture of a mayfly or a midge and then we tie a fly that we think looks like that. But unless you're out observing on the water, there aren't many pictures of...I mean, there's a few out there of emerging mayflies, emerging midges but they're so hard to capture. You see more and more these days but it's difficult to find photographs and you really have to be out there on the water and watch these things emerge to see what they look like in the surface film.
Pat: You do. And this...the day I was out with Tony, it was kinda dumb luck because we were just watching those things. They were, like, emerging right at our feet. It was just one of those heavy midge hatches that you typically would see out, you know, in February in the South Platte. And we're just, you know...we're watching it. It's just, like, it's amazing, you know. And you can look on the side of the river and there's just midge shucks all over the place so it kinda gives you an idea of the magnitude of the numbers of midges that come off in any given day. And, you know, I've always been, you know, a proponent of, you know, what midges lack in size they make up in numbers. And, you know, that's what's important is there's millions of midges coming off and they're just such an important part of the trout's diet.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah, they sure are. And it's really hard to...during an emergence, it's really hard to stop fishing and observe bugs because usually the fish are gonna be feeding pretty heavily, right. So, you don't wanna waste any time. You don't know how long the hatch is gonna last. You don't wanna be looking at bugs when there's fish rising. So, it takes a lot of discipline to do that.
Pat: Yeah. That...you know, and I just thought of something else too. You know, that Brooks' sprout emerger is deadly for midge emergers too, you know. It's got that little tuft of foam and it's a little parachute pattern. It sits kind of in the film and then it's got that back half of that body that kinda hangs back into the surface film. So, I think, you know, that's important. And, you know, man, I've watched, you know, Jim Cannon just light them up on that little suspender midge of his. That thing's just absolutely deadly. So, I think that that shuck and the way that it's presented, you know, half in, half out can be a really successful, you know, way of approach it. And again, it just kinda all revolves around the rise form, you know. Trying to determine, hey, are these fish eating adults? Are they eating emergers? Are they eating pupa, you know, mid column? And again, so much of that just kinda revolves around just the observation.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. So many times, people ask me, you know, what flies should I use when I'm going out tomorrow. Should I use an emerger? And it's so tough to tell because it changes hour by hour and you're really...as you said, you've gotta be observant. And the fish are gonna tell you what fly to put on, right? Usually during a hatch.
Pat: Absolutely.
Tom: You can't go out with a predetermined plan for a hatch because it changes every day. The weather changes a little bit and the fish might be taking the duns or they might be taking the emergers. And you just have to let the river speak to you.
Pat: I agree. I think that's the most important thing is, you know, you're watching the fish. They're giving you the signals on what's coming off and, you know, just watching the fish, the way they're responding to the hatch gives you all the clues that you need to match the hatch properly.
Tom: Yeah, and that's what makes it fun, right? That's what makes it a challenge, is to have to observe and have to modify things as you go.
Pat: I agree. I mean, like you said, you can't get too comfortable with one particular strategy because things are continuously changing depending upon, you know, what bug you're trying to imitate and you think you get comfortable with imitating, you know, olives and then you've got your PMDs and then your [crosstalk 01:13:41] are completely different. And so, it's just fun. It's what really, you know, tests us as anglers and really makes us a better angler at the end of the day.
Tom: Yeah. I know that every time I have a successful caddis pattern, I'll be out and I'll see something on the river and I'll tie something up that night and I'll go out and it'll just wreck the fish. And I'll think, "Oh, boy. I've got it now. I've got the pattern." And of course, two days later, the fly doesn't work or the presentation doesn't work. But just when you thought you've got it figured out the fish tell you something different.
Pat: Yeah. You know, and a fly we didn't really talk about was, you know, Gary LaFontaine's sparkle pupa, you know, I mean...
Tom: Oh, one of my favorites.
Pat: You know, the man that literally wrote the book on caddisflies and... I think, you know, that particular fly is deadly and I found I do better on that fly on the dead drift but that fly, you know, has got the little shuck on it and it's just...it's deadly, as you can attest.
Tom: You're talking about the emerging sparkle pupa, the one with the little deer hair wing, not the deep pupa, right?
Pat: Yeah.
Tom: Yeah.
Pat: The emerging, yep.
Tom: Yeah.
Pat: I think that's one that everybody should carry in their fly box.
Tom: Oh, I always have a bunch. It's a killer fly. And the deep pupa as well for, you know, prior to the hatch.
Pat: Right, right. Yeah, there's just...there's so much. I mean, so I think again, you know, it's, like...it's interesting, you know, when you talk to one person how they have more success, you know, swinging versus dead drifting.
Tom: Yeah.
Pat: And, you know, I guess what it really boils down to is just confidence, confidence in what you're doing, particular pattern. You know, you don't outthink yourself. And I think that's what so many fishermen do, is they just...they have a tendency to outthink themselves. They're not really buying into what they're doing. And then they end up constantly changing flies and that equates to downtime and not catching fish. So, you just have to really buy into what you're doing and believe in it.
Tom: After observing, right?
Pat: After observing, exactly.
Tom: Yeah. Well, that's great, Pat. Hey, I wanna thank you for sharing your tips on fishing emergers. I hope that we've answered some of the questions that people may have and you have a lifetime of fishing emergers so I really appreciate your wisdom and your guidance.
Pat: I appreciate, you know, being part of your podcast and like I said, we've known each other a long time. A lot of water's gone under the bridge and I've always had most respect for you and you're one of the greatest guys in the fly-fishing industry, one of the most humble people I've ever met. And I'm truly blessed to call you my friend.
Tom: Well, thank you, Pat. The feeling is of course mutual. And we've gotta fish together more often. We're not getting any younger.
Pat: Yeah, you need to come out and we need to go fish Cheesman together. I would treasure that opportunity.
Tom: Oh, you need to come out here and teach me how to catch fish on the Batten Kill, Pat.
Pat: Yeah, I don't think I'm gonna be of much assistance [crosstalk 01:17:20]
Tom: Oh, I bet you would. I bet you would. I think I've been skunked about three times the past three times I've been out so...or no, I did catch a little fish the other night. But it's a tough river.
Pat: I'd love to fish it. My experiences on the eastern watersheds has been pretty minimal but I would love to get out and fish some of those legendary trout streams that are in your backyard.
Tom: Yeah, come and show us how to do it, Pat. We need...
Pat: I'm gonna come and watch the master.
Tom: No, you won't see anything from me. Anyway, Pat, I wanna thank you for taking the time. You've got a new book out, don't you?
Pat: Yeah. It's "The Favorite Flies for Colorado" and it just came out last fall. And I had a really fun time with that project and got, I think, some of the best fly tyers in Colorado involved in the project. Everybody from Charlie Craven right down to Don [inaudible 01:18:28] John Barr gave me one of their favorite flies and some of the tips on how to fish it. And so, it was one of the more rewarding projects that I've done over the years.
Tom: And by the way, those patterns will work everywhere. So, they may be favorite flies in Colorado but they'll work everywhere. And Colorado has some of the best and most innovative fly tyers in the world so that book should be of help to anyone.
Pat: I'd agree. It's just great, innovative fly tyers with amazing tips and tactics that...like you said, they'll work anywhere in the country.
Tom: In the world. Yeah.
Pat: Absolutely.
Tom: All right, Pat. Thank you so much and I'll talk to you soon. Take care of yourself.
Pat: All right. Thank you, sir.
Tom: Okay. Bye, bye.
Pat: Take care. All right, buddy.
Tom: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at