Fishing the Baja surf on foot with Scott Sadil

Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast. This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And in this week's podcast I'm gonna be talking to Scott Sadil. Scott is a lifetime fly angler, one of the top experts in fly fishing on the West Coast in my opinion. And we're gonna be talking about fly fishing in Baja which is something I know absolutely nothing about. So, I was delighted to be able to talk to Scott about it because it's something I've always wanted to do. And so, I'm curious about it. And if you are, if you happen to be in that area on vacation or you're just curious about fly fishing in Baja, then I think you'll enjoy this. If not, it's always a pleasure talking to Scott anyway.
Before we get into the podcast and before we get into the Fly Box, couple announcements. One is that last week's podcast on neonic pesticides was a lot more timely than I expected because I just learned that the state of New York is the state...the legislature of New York, both House and Senate have passed a bill pretty much banning neonic pesticides in New York state. So, congratulations to those lawmakers for making the right decision. And at this point the governor hasn't signed it but hope she does. And just hats off to the people of New York state for getting these things out of our ecosystem. And let's hope that other states follow suit or that the EPA takes action.
And another thing, another announcement. There's still a couple of spots on my trip to Three Rivers Ranch in Idaho, September 30th to October 6th. I host a trip there every year. It's one of my favorite places in the world. The fishing is great. There is a lot of dry fly fishing that time of year. The tourists are gone. The weather can be anything from 70 to snowing. But the good news is that if the weather's nice, you have good hopper fishing, dry fly hopper fishing and if the weather is lousy, you got good bluing olive fishing and the guides at Three Rivers are terrific and very experienced and will get you into good fish regardless. And also, the food there is just off the charts. So, it's an all-around great experience. And if you're interested, call Orvis Travel. There's still a couple spots left.
And then a third announcement. Boy, these days you can't lose on waders because two things. One is that the pro waders, the Orvis pro waders are the best waders by far that I have ever worn. I go through multi-floor roses and blackberries and raspberry bushes all the time with these waders and I've never punctured them. I slide down banks, I kneel down on gravel and I do a lot of walking and they just hold up so well. The other good news is that for a pair of summer waders which is what I personally prefer for summer, the ultra-light waders and boots are on sale and they're on sale all summer. The reason is that we just...fishing business is good but we just plain ordered more waders than we had intended and we need to get our inventory down. So, nothing wrong with them and we're not discontinuing them. It's just that we ordered more than we should've. So those things happen sometime. Anyway, you can take advantage of that by getting a good deal on the ultra-light boots and waders. Now the pros are not on sale but if you need a pair of super rugged waders, it's worth the money.
All right. Now let's do the Fly Box. So, the Fly Box is where you ask questions and I try to find an answer for you. I don't answer all the questions. Some of them are repetitious. Some of them just refer to your advice on some local fishery that I don't know anything about and I don't feel like looking up because you can look it up online as easily as I can. But there are some things that I can answer or I can ask some of my contacts and fishing buddies for the answer. So, I try to answer as many as I can. Let's start with an email from Riker.
I recently tied a Bennett's Lunch Money Streamer with a size 6 gamma hook B10S and Wapsi medium lead dumbbell eyes and took it out to fish for bass the other day on my Orvis Encounter 9-foot 5 weight rod and it did not feel good to cast. It felt heavy and just not smooth so I was wondering if I should go down a size or two in the lead eyes. I'm so excited to hear your thoughts on this. Also, I just bought your book, "The Orvis Guide to Finding Trout" and love the book. It is very interesting and helpful.
Well, thank you, Riker. And yes, absolutely you should go down in size. There is no way that you are gonna be able to cast a size six streamer with the medium lead eyes on a five weight and make it look pretty. It just ain't gonna happen. It's physically impossible. You're dealing with mass and gravity and it ain't gonna work. So yeah, you can go down. I would go down a couple sizes. I would go down to, like, the...I wouldn't even go to small. I'd go to the mini or the micro or the midget eyes and I'd go down a hook size or two smaller to an 8 or a 10 with that 5 weight. You know, even...actually, you know, a size six fly with medium lead eyes is gonna be even clunky on an eight weight. So, there's really no way to make it look like...make your cast look like river runs through it with the fly that heavy. You know, it's...fly fishing is meant to cast relatively weightless lures. And, you know, that weight of a fly you're talking, half way between a fly and a spinning lure. So, it's not gonna be pretty. You're gonna have to make a... you're gonna have to open up your casting loops so that you throw a more open loop. A better idea is to do an oval cast or a Belgian cast or even better yet, a water load so that you just hang the fly downstream in the current until the line straightens and then just flick your rod tip upstream. Just not gonna work very well on a five weight.
So those are a couple of tips. But, you know, even if you go to smaller lead eyes, you still wanna probably think about adjusting your casting.
Here's an email from Nick. "A year or so I emailed you about the relative merits of becoming a strictly Tenkara Angler or becoming proficient at both Tenkara and traditional fly-fishing techniques. You advised me to come proficient at both and I agree with your assessment. Every fly-fishing technique, fly fishing gear or gear fishing is a tool one can use depending on the circumstances they are given. With that said, I have now caught fish using both styles. However, my casting using traditional fly-fishing gear needs work. I am struggling with distance. My casting feels like labor. It is not smooth. I get a good cast here and there but it's a struggle. What can I do to improve? Also, I have a large tailwater available to me and it kicks my butt. It's deep depending on flow and can be volatile. There are stock trout but only early in the year for the most part as I do live in South Carolina. Any tips for fishing large tailwaters? Thanks for everything.'
So, Nick, first of all on the casting issue, I wish there was a magic bullet that I could give you. But if your distance casting isn't good, it's probably because your casting form in general is not good. You need to be able to cast 35 or 40 feet really well and comfortably and smoothy and efficiently before you can start getting distance. So, I'd advise you...the best thing to do is get a casting lesson from someone if you can. Second best thing is to watch a bunch of Pete Kutzer's videos on the Orvis Learning Center and then practice, practice, practice. Video yourself if you're able to do that. Do it with a phone. Video yourself and then analyze your casting. And try to improve it. But it's gonna take practice. There's no substitute for practice unfortunately and a good lesson.
So, regarding tailwaters, you know, every tailwater is a little different but in general, particularly if it's deep and there's heavy flow, you're gonna find most fish feeding right along the bank. So, my advice would be first of all to fish in the right places which would be close to the banks in high water. Other than that, you know, it's probably everything that you need to do in fly fishing. Look for emerging insects. Check your water temperatures etc., etc., etc. But, you know, fish the edges. Fish along the banks in the slower water and hopefully at least that tip will help you a bit.
Jonathan: Hi, Tom. This is Jonathan from Czech Republic. I am recording this message under the watchful eye of an eight-year-old boy who is a huge fan of the podcast and who would like me to ask a couple of questions. So, the first. I think last summer we heard one of the questions in the Fly Box was someone asking about sunscreen and possible implications of sunscreen on their hands when handling fish. And we were curious if bug spray, if there are similar concerns. So, is there anything that we should do other than, you know, just kind of washing our hands quickly, you know, in the river itself or are there particular bug sprays that are better or worse for fish? And yeah, would welcome any thoughts you have on that.
And then the other. Couple of weeks ago we were surprised to see a... we typically fish a relatively small trout river with wild browns and we were surprised to see a juvenile trout floating in the river dead. And my son scooped it with a net and in its mouth, it looked...basically it looked like, you know, somebody had stuck a cigar in its mouth. There was a caddis case hanging out. And maybe it was just there by chance but I was curious is it possible for trout to choke in that manner and if yes, is it common or uncommon.
Tom: So, thank you for your questions all the way from the Czech Republic. And I assume this is for your son. Maybe son or nephew or something. First of all, I am not sure if there is a study that's been done on the effects of bug spray on fish but I can't believe it isn't harmful in some way. I mean, we don't even like to pick up fish with dry hands and I would imagine that them getting bug spray on their delicate mucus membranes is not a good thing. It's actually not a good thing to have on the surface of your hands anyways because many bug sprays can...particularly the ones with DEET can degrade nylon tippet material and your fly line. So, my advice...what I do if I use bug spray...I don't use it that often but if they get really bad, I do use it. I always use the back of my hands to apply it. So, I never put bug spray on the surface of my hands. Bugs don't generally bite you on the surface of your hands, the grabbing surface. So, I just use the back of my hands and I use that to rub the bug spray in all over the place and keep it off my fingers. And that seems to help.
Regarding that juvenile trout floating in the river, it sounds like it probably choked on a big caddis case. It might've died for another reason and the caddis case just came out but, you know, it could've choked on it. Trout make mistakes and they do die. You know, I'm not a biologist and a biologist would've wanted to examine the trout anyways but it's quite likely that it bit off more than it could chew and choked on it. That's my best answer.
Here's an email from...oh, boy. I didn't write this one down. I'm sorry. I forgot the name of this one. "Hope you're doing well. I have a question regarding something I was thinking about the other day when fishing. I fish mostly ponds and smaller lakes and the occasional river thrown in. I cast righthanded so I typically walk the bank with the shore to my left. I've noticed when I hook most fish, bass, bluegill, crappie, trout and most catfish, they tend to head towards me following the shoreline. Rarely do they swim away from me or even head deeper. They just usually go towards me and to the right. Carp are the exception which almost always go deep and away. Is this normal and if so, why? Just curious, your thoughts."
Well, I'm not sure why. I have a theory. You know, things like bass and bluegill, crappie and even trout, catfish...the fish are gonna go where they feel most secure because they're suddenly threatened, suddenly something's yanking on them and they can't get away. And so, they will typically go for a place where they're most protected or where they can get away from a predator. And, you know, when you're fishing shoreline, it's probably the shoreline because it's got rocks and logs and weed beds and things like that. Carp on the other hand, they typically go to deep water when they're spooked or when they're frightened or when they're hooked. So, you know, they don't often go to...they don't as often go to cover as those other species do. They just head for the deep water. And because they're so big and strong, they can get there in a hurry. So that's my theory but again, just a theory. Not sure. Not sure why they go to the right. Probably the way you set the hook. But I don't have an answer for that part of it.
Here's an email from Sam from Austin, Texas. "Over the past couple of years, I've been doing a lot of fly tying and had an interesting experience that I would like to hear your comments on. I was tying up a batch of Royal Wulffs in size 10 and 12 following Charlie Craven's videos. While the flies looked very nice and had the right proportions, I was curious about how they would actually perform in terms of floatation. When I plopped them in a bowl of water, some of them floated fine but some of them began to sink very quickly. They would either go tail down or take a nosedive sinking to the bottom after a few seconds. Clearly, I have some work to do on my wolves but it got me thinking how we approach our fly tying. Just because a fly looks nice does not mean it will perform as intended. It would be nice to have a reference for how a fly should float included in a fly-tying recipe to use as a non-appearance-based measure of performance. Do you have any preferred benchtop testing methods for quality control of your flies when you tie them such as that you make sure you dial in performance before finishing up a batch? For larger, nonfoam flies such as Royal Wulffs what should our experience be in terms of floatation without the use of gel or dry shake floatants?"
Well, Sam, interesting you say that because when I started fly tying when I was a teenager, I did the same thing and I would put my flies in a glass of water. And I would notice that...at the time I tying Catskill dry flies and all the books that I read or the articles or whatever said that the flies should float high up on their hackle tips and balance on the hackle and the tails. And you know what? It never happened because unless I very precisely place the fly on the water, they wouldn't float that way. And some of them would sink. And what I realized is that dropping a fly in a glass of water is not...it doesn't have the same physics and aerodynamics as casting a fly out there. When you cast a fly out there, you've got a tippet attached so it's probably not gonna nosedive. And, you know, if your casting is good, your fly and your leader and your line are gonna all land about the same time and it's a big air resistance package. So, the fly's gonna land on the water differently and probably lighter than if you dropped it in a glass because of the air resistance of the fly and the leader and the line.
But that being said, don't expect your flies to...just don't expect your dry flies to be dropped in a glass of water and just float on their own. They've got a hook in them. And most of the materials other than foam and deer hair that we tie our dry flies with are not lighter than water. And they take on water pretty quickly and they sink. That's why we use fly floatant. And, you know, to expect a fly to float really well unless it has foam or some CDC or deer hair on it, it's not gonna float for very long. So, you need floatant. Regarding the instructions for tying a fly so that it floats properly, that's really why we have the proportions we do on flies. Somebody like Charlie Craven knows that...he knows the proportions that he needs to put into that fly to make it float properly. And so, if you just follow the instructions that somebody like Charlie or Tim Flagler uses in their fly-tying videos, you follow those proportions, your dry flies are probably gonna float as good as they can. So that's what you need to do is just pay attention to those proportions and how much material they put on the hook and where they put it.
So don't worry so much about it. In fact, you know, a fly that's just floating barely in the surface film is often more effective than a fly that floats high up on top of its hackle. So, you know, that looks more like an emerging fly or a drowned or crippled fly. So, I wouldn't agonize over it. Tie your flies based on the right proportions. Put some dry fly dressing on it and things will be fine.
Here's an email from Brian in Maryland. "I'm taking a family vacation to Costa Rica in July. Shout out to my father-in-law who is paying for the trip. We will be on the west coast of Costa Rica. Because this is a family trip with children, fishing will not be the primary focus. Still, I'm taking my saltwater flyrod to try fishing from the surf or whatever other setting I can find in the mornings and the evenings. I'm not sure what species I'll find but I'm hoping to find basically whatever would eat your fly, jack, snap or ladyfish and any other random fish. I'll be fishing an eight-weight rod with an intermediate line. My question is what types of flies and colors would you suggest bringing along/ Also, what leader would you recommend for general light saltwater fishing? Thanks, Tom, for all you do to help us anglers."
So, Brian, first of all, I would suggest that you listen to this podcast with Scott because the conditions are probably similar in Baja to what you might find in Costa Rica. I mean, it's fairly close geographically. So that's one thing I would suggest. But regarding flies, you know, if I'm going somewhere saltwater fishing and I don't know what I'm gonna find, I would...I will always have three flies with me. I will always have some Clouser Minnows in a, you know, size four or six. Not too big. I'll always have some Deceivers, Lefty's Deceivers, some big ones and some little ones. And I will always have some sort of surface popper, usually a Gurgler I find is best. And you can throw a Gurgler on an intermediate line if you start stripping it right away. It'll work pretty well. Just don't let the line sink too much before you start your retrieve.
And then as far as colors are concerned, God, I don't know. You know, chartreuse and white, olive and white, blue and white. I don't think the color's gonna be as important as the profile and the sink rate and the speed at which you move the fly which you're gonna have to decide.
Regarding leaders, you know, unless you're gonna encounter some barracuda in which case you'll need wire or some tarp in which case you'll need a shock tippet, for general fishing it's hard to beat a 9-foot 16-pound fluorocarbon leader. You can always take some heavier material for shock tippets and some wire along with you but that's what I generally start with, 9-foot, 16 pound. And you can...you know, if you're comfortable with tying knots, take some different sizes of material. I always take 60, 40, 30, 20 and then, you know, 16-pound, 12-pound, 8-pound. I hardly ever use the eight pound. But you'll wanna bring along some spools of different tippet material. But don't sweat the fly selection. It's probably gonna be a matter of...more a matter of finding fish feeding than it is exactly what fly you use.
Here's an email from Donald. "First up, I wanna say I'm a huge fan of the podcast and enjoy listening to it quite a bit while I'm at work. I actually got to meet you at the Trout Unlimited tree planning event back in April on the Battenkill. Well, it's good to hear from you, Donald. My question is about disposing of old waders. I have a set of cheap waders that I got back when I was a teenager and I have no idea what I was doing at all and even what fly fishing was. They're sitting in my storage unit at my apartment and leak. How would I go about disposing of them in the most ecofriendly way possible?"
Well, Donald, I am not sure how to dispose of waders in an ecofriendly way. There is a company called TerraCycle which will take, you know, stuff that normally...plastics that normally wouldn't...aren't able to go into the recycling stream. We use it here in our house. But other than that, I've got a couple of other suggestions. Before you dispose of them, maybe they can be reused. So, I've got two suggestions. One is to cut the feet or the boots off them and use them as rain pants. You know, use them in the garden or use them when you're walking your dog in the rain or use them on a boat as a pair of bibs. Just cut the foot off or cut the boot off and use them that way. They'll probably be fairly waterproof, even if they leak when you're wearing them as waders. They'll probably work as a decent pair of rain pants.
And the other suggestion is to find a young kid who doesn't have much money that likes to fish and buy a tube of Aquaseal and give him the waders and the Aquaseal because there is a pretty good chance that even though they leak, they might be able to be repaired. So, in general, you know, we like to reuse things before we put them in either the waste stream or the recycling stream. So, I think you can probably find a use for those somewhere as opposed to just disposing of them.
An email from Daniel from Southern California. "I started fly fishing last year while in Montana for work as someone who welcomes a challenge. I've been absolutely obsessed with fly fishing. I'm back home in Colorado since January and have been making the four-hour drive to fish the eastern Sierras quite often. With record snow pack and runoff in full effect, I've been looking into getting into some different water. My options closer to home are surf fishing for perch and smallmouth in some of the local lakes. I have a nine-foot five weight clearwater I've been catching bass on. I'm looking to get a different rod for fishing in the surf. Is there a rod you would recommend that could double for my surf fishing and also for bigger bass bugs? And if I could use that same rod to throw streamers for trout, that would be amazing. Should I accompany that rod with a floating or intermediate line? Do you have any tips and advice for surf perch, leader, flies, technique? I know I'm asking a lot. Any advice would be helpful. Thanks for taking the time to read this and I hope to hear from you soon."
So, Daniel, I've done podcasts before in the past, if you look at the archives, on fishing for surf perch. So, I would advise you to look there first or look online for some advice. I don't have any experience with surf perch so I really can't help you there. I just have to do an online search myself. Regarding the rod, I can help you there. My advice would be a nine-foot nine weight rod. You know, you're fishing the surf, you're fishing bigger bass bugs. You wanna make things easy. And the nine-weight line just has more mass and it's gonna make...you know, if you have some wind or you're throwing a bigger bug, you're gonna be happy with that nine-weight line. It's certainly not too heavy and you have some big large mouths in California. So, you may be using big flies. It's a bit heavy for a trout streamer rod. So, you know, if it was a trout streamer rod, I would probably say a seven or an eight weight. But for fishing on the surf and for bass bugs, I'd recommend a nine. So, I think you're gonna have to decide which you're gonna do more. Are you gonna do more of the bass fishing and surf fishing or are you gonna do more streamer fishing for trout. And yeah, you can make a nine-weight work. Certainly, streamer fishing for trout. Just a little heavy. But it'll work. So, I hope that advice is helpful and sorry I wasn't able to help you with the surf perch.
Here's an email from John. "Hi, Tom. I find your recent podcast on canoes and kayaks and other watercraft for fly fishing very interesting. I have one question, though. How do you get back upstream with a nonmotorized watercraft like a kayak when fishing a river? Do you need a friend to meet you downstream for a ride? What do you do if you're going on your own? Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks for doing the podcast and all the knowledge you contribute to all of us fly fishers."
So, John, there's a number of ways you can tackle that problem. One is, yeah, have someone pick you up and take you back to get your car so that you can then drive back downstream and pick up your kayak. You know, if you're comfortable leaving it on the bank for a little bit. The other thing is if there are a lot of other anglers in the area, there's probably somebody who's running what's called a shuttle service where you pay them a certain amount of money...depends on where you are how much it costs. It's not unreasonable. And then you leave your keys somewhere and they will...during the day, they will move your car downstream for you. And the other thing that some people do is they take a bicycle...I know a lot of people get, like, a really cheap, used bicycle. And they will leave the bicycle in the downstream, take out and then they'll ride back to their car and pick up their car, throw the bicycle in the car and then go get their boat. So, a number of ways you can do it but...or you can always paddle back upstream but you probably don't wanna do that. So anyway, those are some suggestions.
Here's an email from Zack. "Thanks as always for all you do. I'm looking for an exclusive streamer rod for trout and I'm trying to decide between a seven or an eight weight. I will almost always be wading medium sized rivers with an occasional larger river mixed in. The flies I will be utilizing will be streamers in the three and a half to six-inch range such as Sex Dungeons, Barely Legal, Circus Peanuts, etc. I'll be choosing Helios 3. In your opinion, which weight rod would you prefer for throwing streamers all day while wading? Lastly, a quick suggestion regarding something that helps me tie leaders and knots for tandem fly rigs off the water. I take a wooden clothespin and clip it to the standing end of my line as I make my wraps and position my knot to be clinched. Even with the clothespin resting on the table, this provides just enough tension to prevent the standing line from coiling and is especially useful to keep the heavier lines with more stiffness and memory under control."
Well, Zack, that's a good tip. A lot of people just kinda hold the standing line in the middle and ring finger of the hand that they're using to make the wraps to keep it out of the way but that clothespin idea sounds interesting. I will have to try it. Regarding your choice of rods, I would definitely go with an eight weight. Those are big flies. Some of them are weighted. They're air resistant. And if you're gonna be throwing flies that big all day, I think an eight weight's gonna be better than a seven. Particularly if you're gonna be fishing some polyleaders or some sink tip lines or full sinking lines. So, I think an eight weight for those bigger flies is a better deal.
And I would think also...I would honestly go with the 3F instead of the 3D. In my opinion a little bit slower, more moderate action rod is gonna be easier to throw that open loop that you're gonna wanna throw with those big wind resistant flies. So that would be my suggestion anyway.
Here's an email from Oliver from Germany. "Even though I am in my mid 40s, I just discovered fly fishing for me and fell in love with it right away. I've been watching your YouTube channel and listening to your podcast now for a while and as you can imagine, both are very valuable to me as a beginner. Especially your podcast on how to practice your fly casts changed my whole approach to it right away. Now onto my questions. I live right next to a large river which has a nice population of bass, pike, eel and other species. My question would be...the river is tidal and I was wondering if this should affect my approach in general. Is it better in falling or rising tides? Does it even matter at all? Do I have to use certain techniques or equipment or should I handle it as a regular current just with switching directions?
My other question would be while targeting bass, pike, etc., also getting interested...and as other anglers told me, they are cutting regular leader quite easily. Spin anglers say that they're using metal leaders for that reason. What should I use in such case? I read something about some kind of metal wire mantled leader tippet and would tippet rings also be useful here?"
So, Oliver, regarding your first question, yeah. You should just treat those rivers as reversing currents. And it's interesting because what technique works when the water is running one way may not work when the water is running the other way in the same place because the reversing current can really change the dynamics of the river. So, you're gonna have to pay attention to where the fish hold and how your flies behave when the current reverses. Now regarding rising or falling tide, that is going to be really specific to a given location. And I get this question all the time. You know, certain flats and certain rivers that are tidal are better on a falling tide. Certain are better on a rising tide. Certain techniques are better on a falling tide. Certain techniques are better on a rising tide. And then it can change the very next day. So, my advice to you is to fish all tides on this particular river and to see which tide works. Generally, in most places the first couple hours of either...the first couple hours of a tide when the water starts moving are generally the best. But again, that's not an absolute. Tides affect rivers in different ways. So, I would advise you to fish all tides, see which work the best.
Regarding your bass and pike fishing, you won't need a shock leader or a wire leader for bass but you probably will for pike. And there is a number of ways to solve that. You can tie on...there's actually knotable wire that you can buy that you can tie a triple surgeon's knot onto your tippet or you can buy an entire leader that has a wire tippet incorporated to it. They're generally called Predator or Toothy Critter leaders. Or you can buy these little things from Orvis that are called re-twistable bite guards and that you just tie those onto the end of your regular leader and then you remove a little sleeve and you untwist the haywire twist, put the fly on, twist the haywire back on, slide the sleeve over it. It's actually a lot easier than it sounds right here. And then you've got a piece of wire. But you will need a piece...generally you need a piece of wire. Or 60-pound fluorocarbon as a chock tippet will also sometimes work for pike.
Here's an email from Chad from Malmo, Sweden. "I have a question about knots, namely the Bimini twist. It's less about how to do it." Well, I'm glad because I wouldn't be able to teach you how to do it here on the podcast. "And more about why it works. I see when you tie the knot you end up with doubled over and wrapped section at the end which makes the knot stronger than just a single strand of mono or whatever line you are using. My question is why this holds and the line doesn't just break above the Bimini twist. It seems like all you would really need is to push the weak spot back further but obviously I'm understanding...I'm not understanding how the physics of the knot actually work. Any insight?"
Well, Chad, yeah, the Bimini twist is an interesting knot. And you've guessed it right that you use it to create a double strand in your tippet. And this does a couple things. One is it's actually gonna be stronger than a single piece of tippet and also when you tie a lighter line to a heavier line, you get more mass so that the knot seats better. And the deal here is that all knots supposedly...this is what I've always understood. All knots except the Bimini twist are not 100% knots. Apparently if you tie a Bimini twist in a leader with 16-pound test, line that breaks at 16-pound test and you then try to break it, it will...should break right in the middle of the tippet. In other words, you're using the maximum amount of strength you're getting from that tippet. And the Bimini twist does not diminish that strength at all. So, what it does is it gives you a doubled strand to get a stronger knot when you attach your tippet to the rest of your leader. But that knot that you...the Bimini twist itself does not weaken the whole system. And that's why it's used in world records because if you're using...if you're trying to get a world record on 16-pound tippet, you want every bit of that 16 pounds. You don't want it weakened 10% or 20% by using a knot.
So, by using the Bimini twist when you attach it to the rest of your leader, you're hopefully getting the full 16 pounds. And also, the other thing about a Bimini twist is that it does have some shock absorption. If you tie a Bimini twist and you pull on it, you'll notice that it stretches a bit. And that does give you a bit of a shock absorber effect. So those are reasons people use Bimini twist and it's a useful knot if you're fishing for big fish and...or you're going for a record.
Dakota: Hey, Tom. This is Dakota from Golden, Colorado. Wanted to thank you for answering my question about knots and cold water last January. I did take your advice and have not had issue with my knots since. So, looks like you were right. I had a question about traveling to high Alpine Lakes. I'm going on a trip to northwest Colorado this summer to go fishing with a family member. And he mentioned that we will have to hike on foot to a lot of the Alpine Lakes and small private streams that we've been granted access to. I wanted to ask you if waders are a good choice for that or if simply hiking in the wading boots and wet wading in is the best idea. Obviously if it's hot, we're gonna wanna wet wade. But if the weather's intermediate, getting up there and really sweating in waders doesn't sound like a lot of fun. Would love to hear your take. Thanks very much."
Tom: So, Dakota, I guess it depends on how far you're going. If you're just walking a mile into these lakes then, yeah, you can probably walk in in your wading shoes. And I would, you know, I would just wear the wading shoes that give you the best support because you're gonna be hiking in them. But if you're walking more than maybe a mile or so, I would consider carrying your wading shoes and/or waders if the water's cold in a little backpack. You're probably gonna be carrying some kinda daypack or backpack and you can...you know, if you can't fit the wading shoes in your pack, you can always tie them to the outside. But, you know, to fish all day in a pair of wading shoes and then hike three or four miles down a mountain with wet wading shoes, I think that you increase chances for discomfort and maybe blisters by wearing those wet wading shoes. And certainly, your feet aren't gonna feel that great. So, if I were you, I'd carry my wading shoes in. Hike in hiking boots or whatever you're most comfortable. Hiking in and then hike out with a pair of nice, dry socks and hiking boots. I think your feet will appreciate that.
All right. That is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Scott about fly fishing in Baja.
So, my guest today is Scott Sadil. Scott currently is the Fly-Fishing Editor of "Gray's Sporting Journal", a great magazine and also does some writing for "California Fly Fisher", does the fly-tying column for "California Fly Fisher" which by the way is a great, great little...kind of a newsprint. Large size newsprint publication that I find really, really interesting. I think it's a great publication. So, and Scott, over the years, you've done all kinds of things, right?
Scott: Yep. Lots of them and I have books of all sorts from novels to short story collections and more sort of traditional fly-fishing books. And I've written for all of the magazines and... over the years. And also, in the last dozen years I had suddenly got a boatbuilding bug and that's led to a lot of adventures too.
Tom: Oh, wow. Boatbuilding. Cool. Well, and I should say that also Scott is the real deal. Scott is a superb angler and a great guy. And so, it's a pleasure to have you here on the podcast.
Scott: Well, thank you and your character...beyond words too, Tom.
Tom: Character beyond words, yeah. Well, we won't go there. Anyway, Scott was just here on the East Coast and we had a couple nice dinners together. We didn't get to fish together because I had jury duty unfortunately but we got to have dinner so that was nice. So, we're gonna talk about fishing in Baja because it's something I occasionally get questions about and it's something I know absolutely nothing about and I would love to do it someday. So, Scott, go ahead and tell us about, you know, how you get there, what the opportunities are, what species.
Scott: Yeah. It is interesting. Gray's is doing a 50th anniversary issue and why that connects to this subject is because it was just almost exactly 50 years to now is when the pavement finally opened down the length of the Baja peninsula. And myself and some other surfers were of course on that thing and up and down that peninsula. And it wasn't too long before we discovered that besides the good surf there was also really good fishing. And so, my whole career has been tied up with fishing in Baja. And we went...in fact, my first book was about sort of this going from being surfers who knew how to throw, you know, sand crabs out on a three-ounce pyramid sinker and hope something would eat it to casting lures and then casting flies. And there was really...we didn't know of anybody else who was on an adventure like this. If you read the literature over the years, you say, "Oh, yeah. There was that guy who was down there and this guy." But I often tell the story about the first time I actually did try to cast a fly in the Baja surf where we had a good break that we liked a lot. And the friend I was with who was a longtime fly-fishing buddy but, you know, as a trout buddy, he described my efforts as the most pathetic thing he's ever seen in the world.
So, because we didn't, you know...the wind blew and there were waves and we were just sort of overmatched with the whole thing. So, we figured, you know, we knew it could be done because they were that kind of fish and we knew that people kind of fish in the surf and other places. And really the book that sort of opened my eyes was Russell Chatham came out with a book in the late '70s about striped bass fishing in the San Francisco Bay area.
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Scott: And that was the first thing that talked about the flies and the gear and the waves and just the sort of the magnitude of the effort of standing on the edge of the Pacific Ocean and thinking that you can find a fish which to this day is still, you know...it's kind of a remarkable thing that you can do that to me and...but we figured out that you can and in the most recent year, we caught the same species that we could catch in Southern California which was the corbina which is...continues to be, you know, a trophy fish for any fly fisher. Halibut. Many people are surprised that the California halibut is an excellent fly rod fish because their so-called lying on the bottom and hiding is because they're an ambush killer. They're not hiding from anybody that's gonna hurt them. They are in the shallows waiting to eat all kinds of...whatever comes by. And they are...can be very big. And have big mouths and full of teeth. And they are oftentimes the big dog inside of the surf and people are surprised about that.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: Yeah. And then there was sort of the croaker family which...there was a spot finned croaker that was in Southern California. We'd catch those in Northern Baja on the fly. They grub around for crustaceans and, you know, mollusk but you could get them on a fly. But the one fish that really opened up the sport for us was the shortfin corvina with a V which is in the same genus as weakfish, sea trout and of course white sea bass also. And when the shortfin corvina were around, we were gonna have a good fly-fishing trip because they're really receptive to the fly. They're bait eaters. They're in water that you can reach. And oftentimes they'll be sort of a schooling size, two or three pounds which is great and... but we'd oftentimes...depending on the time of the year, you might get them that...they started to look like a steelhead, you know. And they're really, really special at that size.
So that's...to this day remains a fish that you're always glad if they're there because you can get them. And they really love the fly.
Tom: Now...
Scott: Go ahead.
Tom: Well, what about rooster fish that, you know, that have become the darling...early on became the darling of some early fly-fishing videos like "Running Down the Man." Do you chase them or did you chase them?
Scott: I do chase them right now. That's been part of my...when I moved to Oregon, I backed off on Baja a little bit. I was raising children and was in steelhead country and trout country and so that sort of became my main effort. And then I took both my sons...when my second son finished high school, I took them to Baja on a kayak trip down to Bahia Magdalena or Mag Bay and I thought, "Well, I sure miss this down here." And so, part of my boatbuilding was directly about...okay, I'm gonna build a boat so I can go explore Mag Bay. And Mag Bay is 150 miles long with barrier islands. I've never been to Cape Hatteras but I somehow think that it's sort of the same kinda setup where you have these, you know, islands. Probably the islands are created by mountains but other parts of them are just sand, you know, that gets moved around during hurricanes.
Tom: Yep.
Scott: And there's probably seven or eight boccas that go in and out. And then you have tons and tons of mangrove. So, I build boats for that. And in my time out on those islands I began to find rooster fish. And without giving up too many secrets, the rooster fish on the Pacific side is where I've found them. I still have fished for it many times and just recently did on the East Cape and the Isla Cerralvo area where there's so much of it that goes on and so many really big ones are caught. But again, for the same reason that I've enjoyed surf fishing all my life so much...being in those dynamic situations with lots of current and waves breaking and then you add to them a fish like rooster fish charging through that kind of a setting. It's a pretty, pretty exciting sport. Kind of like the best that money can't buy because I'm kind of out there. Just perched on the edge of some sand island and knowing the tides and being there at the right times of the year you can find a lot of them. And that's pretty exciting.
Tom: Let's give people some surf fishing tips because I get that regularly. You know, people are pretty comfortable fishing in shore flats and, you know, calmer water. But when they get...you know, they go on vacation and they have an opportunity to fish in the surf. They just get so intimidated by the big water. Give people some tips on surf fishing in general that you've found.
Scott: Sure. Just to back up before I started really, you know, the...one of the great advantages that I had and people I started doing this adventure with was that we were surfers.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: So, we had a great sense of, you know, how to read the water even though you're reading it for different reasons.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: There's places where waves break. There's deep places where the waves don't break. When the water gets shallower, the waves roll. There's riptides always. There's, you know, there's...all those features are evidence in the same way that you'd read a trout stream. Really, it's the same, you know. When you see riffles you know that's...that that...what's it look like underneath.
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Scott: And the same thing when it's deep and slow. You sort of think, "Okay." And then if you see something else, you go, "Okay. I know there's boulders under there." And it's very much like that looking at the surf. So, the first thing you're always trying to look for is some deeper, calmer water. Where are fish going to hold or where are they going to come to feed? And almost...you know, that's usually in some sort of trough and that trough can be either horizontal to the beach because there's some sand bars outside where the waves are breaking and then there's some sort of deep place where there's...the waves aren't breaking. The white water backs off, turns back into green water. So, you've got that. It's oftentimes, like I said, horizontal to the beach, if that makes sense.
Tom: Yep.
Scott: Or perpendicular where the waves come and then the water has to go out some place. And that will form a consistent trough. And again, that stirs up food stuff that might be in the sand and it gives fish a place where they're a little bit deeper and they can all kinda hold in that current when the water's going out.
Tom: Do you call those guzzles?
Scott: Guzzles?
Tom: Guzzles. G-U-Z-Z-L, yeah, guzzle.
Scott: No, I don't.
Tom: That's a term we use on the Atlantic Coast and I don't know if it's a fisherman's term or it's a generic term but...
Scott: Can I tell you something?
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: We used to call the space between the bed and the wall the guggle with two Gs which is still kind of a trough.
Tom: Guggle, yeah.
Scott: But anyway, that's...and that was...and that to me was just like a family word. I wasn't even sure if anybody else said that. But I've never heard the word guzzle.
Tom: Okay. I think I got it from Louie Tabory who...you know, the great striped bass angler who by the way started out as a surfer as well. So that's interesting.
Scott: Aha. Yeah, that is. I mean, I've called it a trough, I'll call it a slot.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: Or, you know, you'll call it a rick. You know, see a... you know, you'll call it. It's a rick where it's a riptide, you know. The water's, you know, going out. It's not, like, a great, big riptide but it's a place where that happens. And yeah, that's certainly what you're looking for.
Tom: Okay.
Scott: You know, all of that of course...you know, there are beaches, there are times...and if the surf's big, you're out of the game a little bit, you know.
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Scott: And that can easily happen. How far can you cast? That matters but if you can't get the fly in the water and get it to cover some distance, you know, as a presentation when your line's just gonna getting swept in around you, yeah, that can be pretty intimidating. The Oregon Coast for example was not some place that I really wanna stand in those waves and cast a fly. It's the beach...now another thing that's, you know...another tip is how steep is that beach.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: You know?
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: A steep beach gets deep quickly and that's oftentimes good but it also means that when the surf...when there is surf, it's pounding that beach.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: I don't have that much experience between the East Coast and the West Coast but my general sense always is that the beaches are more gentle on the East Coast because it's like their continental shelf is way, way out there. And, you know, it's just...you don't have waves coming out of the deep and slamming up against the shore like you do so much of the pacific.
Tom: Yeah, in general, you do on the East Coast. I mean, there's places like certain part of Rhode Island and Maine where you have rocky cliffs right along the ocean. So, we do have that. But for the most part, yeah, they're more gentle slopes. Yeah.
Scott: Right. And so, I'm always...you know, yes, you're always looking for contour and texture.
Tom: Yep.
Scott: When you're looking at the water. And if you come to a beach and it's just sort of flat every place and just not...you know, you kinda look at that and you think, "Well, you know, that doesn't look like it has the kind of structure." And I guess that's really what we're talking about, the same elements in so much fishing, you know, you wanna see structure and texture.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Scott: So that, you know...where the fish are going to hold. Shallow...kind of a uniform, shallow bottom, you know. All you think about there is, you know, watch out for your stingrays.
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Scott: And maybe the corbina will slide up on that. But man, they're not gonna...they're gonna be awfully spooky because, you know, when that water recedes, they're almost left in dry water. And so even when you're doing that kinda fishing, you're still...there are depressions and low spots where the fish can move in and out without ending up on a sandbar kind of thing. So, another one of my...the beauties of Mag Bay is that you do have these boccas, mouths, where the tide goes in and out. And so...which is in some sense kind of a, you know, a glorified...I don't know, a slew or something like that. And then when the tide goes out, you know, things move in and out through there. And so, I'm always...I've always liked that kind of a setup because...but again you...in surf fishing, you know, 90% of the water doesn't hold any fish.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Scott: That really is the truth.
Tom: Yeah. It is a big ocean.
Scott: It's a big ocean. And you're really hoping for some sort of...there's gotta be all these vectors that come together that you know where that is and you find those spots and those are the ones that, you know, you return to again and again because, you know, that's where the things happen. I've got a spot right now that...you know, there's two...big currents come out. There's...I'd almost wanna call it a race where there's just these waves colliding as far as out as you can see. But there's these couple holes that form and they're just...all kinds of things come in there. In fact, I was fishing with one guy and he goes, "I just saw two bull sharks right where you always stand." Oh, boy.
Tom: Oh, boy.
Scott: Yeah, I mean, it was...in fact I call this spot the pit because it's just this sort of...it's a pit. And yeah. Everything kind of comes through there to check out what it can eat. But so those are the kinds of things that you're looking for. But reading the waves too is the other thing, is, you know, where do the waves break hard. So that's gonna be a shallow spot.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: And then where do they start to break but then they don't break? And so, then you have that...you know that there's that deep water. Or they break hard and then they turn back into green water all of a sudden. And so yeah. Those kinds of...reading that water. And whether you're, you know, just taking a walk on the beach even if you don't have your fly rods, you know, you're reading that water all the time just like you would along any stream saying, "Well, if there's fish anyplace, there's gonna be right there." That's that idea.
Tom: Yeah, I don't think...my wife knows that when I'm walking the beach with her, like, on Cape Cod, I'm not fully concentrating on what she's saying.
Scott: Yeah. No. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And it's like...or driving along the Western River.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Scott: Road parallels the river, you know. You're thinking...you're just trying to see where, you know, where is that spot that I wanna come back to.
Tom: Yeah, yeah. So how about rods, lines, leaders for fishing the surf where you are? What do you prefer?
Scott: Yeah. Because it is big water and there's a possibility of big fish always and there's oftentimes lots of wind, I have to say...and, you know, we started out...everything was...we fished 9 weights but I've kinda bumped that up and maybe it's because 10 weights now are, like, you know, 8 weights when I first started fishing, you know. A 10 weight today is so light and so powerful that you just don't mind casting a 10 weight all day anymore.
Tom: No. No.
Scott: Where before, that might've seemed like kind of an absurd thing to do. Certainly, if you had a 9 or 10 weight fiberglass rod, you might as well be hanging drywall, you know. That's how hard it was unless you were a bigger man than I am, bigger, stronger.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: So, but anyway, I'll use a 10 weight all day long.
Tom: Yep.
Scott: I'll...the biggest thing with, you know...reels are very expensive. They seem to be. But they, you know, they just...you want them to be good enough and what does good enough mean? Well, that means they just keep working.
Tom: Yep.
Scott: And, you know, they take a lot of abuse in the surf because they are getting covered with water. The wind's blowing. They get sand in them.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: And so, you wanna be able to clean them and things. And they, you know, they need to have a good drag because you're gonna catch fish that are gonna pull...take you into your backing pretty quickly at any time. I fish a lot of...you know, with a sinking tip or, you know, sort of...if I'm trying to think how to best describe...but with my 10 weight, you know, I'll cast, you know, 350 grain head, you know. That kind of thing. That gets down pretty quickly.
Tom: Yep.
Scott: I'll fish an intermediate line if it's calm and I'll, you know...and some place close by, I will have a floaty line. But day in and day out, because things happen quickly in the surf, it'll be a fairly short overall head without saying any names and with...that's got...most of that is in the sinking portion...the sinking...yeah. And then for a leader, I don't have much. You know, if I have six feet, I feel just fine. And so, I'll have a butt section and then I'll have my so-called tippet. Excuse me. So yeah. I might have three or four feet of a butt section that could be, you know, 40 and then tie right down to 20. And then if I feel I need to be even lighter than that...but I'm not gonna almost ever fish lighter in the surf.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: Not much light...you know, 16.
Tom: You don't need it. You don't need to go light.
Scott: I don't need it.
Tom: No.
Scott: You know, and if I...and I wanna be able to handle the fish and with...you know, people may or may not...I mean, I'm sure, you know, striped bass fishermen know this but it's something to fight good fish when you're standing. One, you can't chase them out into the water. And two, you're kind of on their level. While in a boat, you can oftentimes be above them and you can kind of make their head go up. But when they're on your level and you're sort of fighting them...yeah. horizontally, not vertically, they can give you fits. Especially they can...and especially if there's waves breaking.
Tom: Yeah. Getting them through that last wave is often a struggle.
Scott: Yeah. And it's, you know, it's a sporting game and, you know, that's why it's so much fun, because it's not just about hooking them. It's like, "Now what are we gonna do? You know, what kind of...what have I got myself into now?" You know, I've seen some big rooster fish that just, you know, just manhandled people in the surf while I... you know, I don't...haven't really seen that on the east side, on the east cape in that calmer water but in the Pacific side, I've seen some big fish come in and people hook on them and they just never...you know, it's like we need a bigger boat for that or, you know, somehow.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: It's just...they've just kinda gone away. And you sort of wondered...you kind of wondered like, "Well, I don't really know if he could've stopped that with, you know, with the gear he had."
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: And it's, you know, good gear.
Tom: So, I'm always interested in stuff like this and I know there's other geeky fly anglers listening. How do you connect...what not to use to connect your 40 to your 20 in your saltwater leader?
Scott: You know, I still...40 to 20, I might not do it. I might put another piece in there.
Tom: Like a piece of 30 or something?
Scott: And go 40, 30, 20, yes. But on those knots to this day, I will use a blood knot.
Tom: Yep. Yeah.
Scott: End of story.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: And I make sure I grease that thing up with my...whatever lubricant I have i.e., saliva and when I pull it down tight, I know that it has to go all the way till it squeezes out that saliva and it's set because if there's any movement left on it, that's, you know...it'll pinch and burn. But if that knot goes and seats the way it's supposed to, I have complete faith in a blood knot.
Tom: Yeah. How many turns you take in the heavy stuff?
Scott: You know, in that heavy stuff there is that fine line. You know, one more or one less. But I'll say in general I will...I say it's four but there actually becomes a fifth one by the time I put it through the middle thing.
Tom: Yep. Okay.
Scott: Yeah. Yeah. That's...and, you know, again...you know as well as I do, if I'm not careful, I'm gonna end up with little slits in my little finger when I tighten those things up if I'm not careful and get it on where my gloves are and... because I do wanna just...I wanna pull that thing all the way so that it goes all the way and sits tight. And I have...I've fished with other people who, you know...and I do have complete faith in the blood knot. On the other hand, my terminal knot in the ocean is a knot I don't use any place else and it's one I learned with Gary Bulla and his crew of captains, the Lucero family near La Ventana in Agua Amarga and they have what they call the captain's knot. And it's a loop knot. But I'm just not quite sure I've ever seen it tied any place else quite like it. And, you know, I couldn't describe it right here but it's not difficult or anything. It's one of those ones you, you know, feed it through the eye of the hook, make a couple turns and then feed the fly through the loop and tighten it up. And again, it's like so, you know, so much of this is just voodoo that we believe in and maybe I'm not supposed to say that word but anyway it's, you know, what you believe in in those situations with those lines.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Is the captain's knot online somewhere? Is there a...
Scott: Yes. You can go to Gary Bulla fly fishing adventures and he's got a little video posted of the guy tying the captain's knot.
Tom: I'll have to look that one up. I've never heard of that one before.
Scott: Yeah. You should. And I think actually someone like you with your kind of experience, you might say, "Oh, that's really the same thing as a..." But I'd be curious to see what [crosstalk 01:12:08]
Tom: Yeah. Man, I don't...I mean, I very strongly believe in certain knots but I don't know what all the other knots are called. I don't get...because I'm kind of a nonslip mono loop clinch blood knot guy. So pretty straight forward. And a Bimini occasionally. That's about it.
Scott: Right. Right. No, I mean, it's like on your sailboat if you have...you know, it's...you only need to know so many but you just make...you just need to know that many.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: You better know them.
Tom: Yeah, you better know them.
Scott: Yeah, yeah.
Tom: So, I was reading a piece recently by Nick Hersion [SP] about Harry Kime [SP] and he was talking about yellowtail which I've always wanted to catch just because I love to eat them. Is that yellowtail that you catch in the Pacific, is that the same one that you get in a Japanese restaurant, Hamachi, is that the same yellowtail?
Scott: You're not thinking of yellowfin, of course?
Tom: No, not yellowfin. No. Yellowtail.
Scott: Yes, so it is the same. It is the same. Yellowtail is closer to a jack than a tuna.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: And they're certainly around there and I miss them sometimes although that was one of the very first fish we caught with flies and lures on the sort of the central part of the Pacific Baja coast. We'd catch them from, you know, casting spoons off rocks and a few times with flies. Where I'm at in Mag Bay, they have big numbers of them but I've never actually found them where I could cast from the beach for them but I have caught plenty of them fishing from boats.
Tom: Oh, so it's a little bit more of an offshore fish than the other ones? Aha, okay, okay.
Scott: Yes, they really are. There are a few places where there's some real shoal water where the waves are breaking way out to sea over some shallow waters that the yellowtail will push bait into that shallow water and... but it's not some place you could wade or anything like that. It's far too dangerous.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: But some guys are, you know, bringing their boats in and reading the water and getting set up to where they can make casts into that kind of water. And then those yellowtail are all the way up in the sea all throughout the Sea of Cortez. I caught them up as far as, you know, Gonzaga Bay which is maybe two thirds of the way up the Sea of Cortez. And they are a great fish. And, you know, a challenging fish. I actually think my buddy, Gary Bulla, you know, had some sort of a record at one time. It was, you know, over 30 pounds and that's just a huge one to tangle with on a fly rod.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: That's just...they're a little bit different than tuna because they're sort of more bottom and rock oriented than a tuna. A tuna just kinda commands the blue water.
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Scott: But the yellowtail, it seems like, they'll find a way to get you near some rocks and stuff. You lose. Yeah, you lose. But, you know, the Mag Bay has been good because it also has mangroves. And so that also opens up all for all kinds of kind of bass and grouper and snappers and those kinds of fish. And snook are also around. They get caught commercially. There's still commercial fishing that goes on in that part of Baja and... but, you'll get smaller ones in the mangrove and you also will get them...they move out of the bay and are going along the surf at times too and that's pretty exciting to find a snook in the surf.
Tom: Yeah. I've done that in Florida a little bit and there's not much better than catching snook in the surf.
Scott: Yeah, I know. I've just...when I... I have a friend now who lives at...someplace there. East Coast guy. And then he tells me about that. I think, "Boy, that sounds just like tons of fun."
Tom: Yeah. So, do you drive down there?
Scott: Generally, I drive down there. From Oregon, that takes me a couple days to get down to San Diego where I have friends and family still. So, I'll rest there a couple days and then a couple more days to get down to peninsula. Stop about half way and have a small motel that, you know, I feel is a good place to spend the night. And the roads are better than ever. The truth is about Baja, the roads are...you know, after having gone up and down that peninsula for so long for so many years, you know, I can testify that the roads are tremendous in comparison. There's actually a new road that goes down along the gulf side in the northern part of the peninsula that's a great road that you can travel well. There's checkpoints along the way that are federales that, you know, you understand that those guys are working for you. They're not...when we were young, we were sort of afraid of that kind of a place because like, "Oh, there are stories that they were gonna give you..." But no, these guys are trying to make the peninsula as safe as possible and they're worried about people...you know, bad characters doing other things, you know.
They're trying to make it safe always for the Baja tourist. And yeah, because, you know, there are so many Americans who have built down there and who travel down there. So, it seems...I'm not gonna say it seems tame. It's still a pretty wild place in terms of...you're a long way from services sometimes. But I have complete confidence traveling in the entire peninsula, yeah.
Tom: So, it's a relatively safe place to go?
Scott: Yeah, it's relative. You know, yes, very much so. You know, people don't...not everybody speaks English but, you know, once you...and you are in a foreign country. But given that, yeah. There is the...you know, you don't have to worry about where to get your gas. You don't need to...yeah, it just feels...I think any reputation for being unsafe is mostly because people who are maybe a little afraid of being in a foreign country or things are done differently but you sort of sort that out.
Yeah, I mean, there's...everyone's got a story but most of my stories are about how people came along and helped me when I was, you know, having problems.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: Car trouble, stuck someplace and somebody just out of the blue came and helped me out. And that's generally what I found throughout Baja, especially if you're...especially if, you know, you're not in the middle of the big city kinda thing but you're out in the country where, you know, fishermen and ranchers live. They're country people and they understand that it's not easy out there and if somebody needs help, they're completely willing to help.
Tom: Good. Great.
Scott: And they appreciate, you know, they appreciate, you know, a few extra dollars for their time.
Tom: Sure, yeah.
Scott: They're super, super appreciative for something like that. You know, so I feel...I've always had a good time in Baja in terms of the character and quality of the people.
Tom: And it's a huge shoreline. And I don't want you to give away any secrets. You've already talked about Mag Bay but if somebody was gonna go down there, what areas should they look at, you know, in general? What part of Baja should they look at?
Scott: The truth is I've always been enamored with the Pacific side because it's more dynamic. It's less tame. And so, the inshore fishing probably has more migratory fish. And you can't just set up nets, you know, because there's waves breaking and things like that. Well, on the Sea of Cortez that's been...it is a remarkably rich fish trap, you know, and... but along shore and things, there's places that, you know, feel a little bit overfished because, you know, the local guys can put up a net or can just get on top of that. But so much of the Pacific side, you just can't do that because, you know, there's waves breaking and it's just too rough at times. And so...and if the fish aren't there today, they could show up tomorrow, especially with those various types of...what I would...I call them surf fish.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Scott: That move through and those can be your corvina and your croakers and your...but even some of those more game fish like a yellowtail and stuff. They can show up near beaches having piled up a bunch of bait near shore. And so, to go back to your question, it's actually...the shore...it's the same answer as, like, when's the best time to go.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Scott: Whenever you can. Where's the best place to go? Wherever you can, you know. It's a little bit like that.
Tom: Yeah, okay. Fair enough.
Scott: Most of Baja...because many, many parts of that...the coastline...you just simply can't get to unless you're outfitted with, you know, the best...even the best four-wheel drive and the best this and the best that. Towns. I mean, a big city like La Paz...and of course there is outfitters and people, you know, ponga guys, pongeros who will take you out. Loreto's a famous place to get yellowtail and dorado that you can find guys and captains. Cabo is sort of overwhelmingly the biggest tourist, you know, attraction on the peninsula and... but plenty of anglers go there and plenty of them get good fish without a doubt. There's towns that have built up along the east cape that are nice. Los Barriles, Los Barriles, that's all that sort of east cape area. It's between La Paz and San Jose del Cabo and those are good communities that have built up a lot. Lots of gringo housing but there's plenty of guides there to find fish.
You know, I'm familiar, very familiar with the La Ventana area which is about an hour south of La Paz. Unfortunately, most airlines don't fly into La Paz anymore. So, you end up flying into San Jose del Cabo and then it's a couple hour, two-and-a-half-hour car ride up to La Ventana. But in La Ventana, there's lots of options and pongeros who know that region. And that's kind of one of the best for the rooster fish and dorado crowd. And for me, those...of course you can catch tuna. You can catch a billfish in the ponga but day in and day out it's those dorado and rooster fish that are to me sort of the champagne of the fly rod fish in Baja.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: They really are because, you know, you're seeing them take the fly. You're fishing on the surface. And, you know, it's not as delicate or as refined as fishing sort of for the classic flats fish. It's not like that. It's a little bit...there's more maybe athletic...it's more rambunctious and it's not probably as demanding in terms of finding far off casting kind of thing.
Tom: Okay.
Scott: And so, an angler who has any saltwater experience can go to an area like the east cape and those places I just named and, you know, has a good chance of getting some of those, you know, really remarkable fish.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Scott: And certainly, you know, it's really...those are special fish. Yeah.
Tom: Oh, it sounds exciting. You know, the one thing before I let you go that we didn't talk about is flies and everybody always wants to know what flies to take. So, you've got some...you've got, like, half dozen that you wouldn't go without to that area?
Scott: Well, I have...yeah, I mean, nobody goes saltwater fishing without clousers. If they're gonna fish...you know, especially if they're gonna get down and fish around rocks. And I have a pattern that's sort of...it's called an amigo that's just a little bit different. It's not my pattern but it's through some guys who fish down there. But it's a clouser type. So, there's that kinda thing but really you are going to have a couple different bait fish patterns. And I think one of the classic mistakes that people make when they start fishing saltwater especially or Baja, they think that their flies need to be flashy. Somehow that's the thing. And most captains I know who have taken to the sport of fly fishing and have become good, excellent fly anglers themselves, they look at a fly and they just...they'll just start pulling out the flash if it's got...they don't want that. They want sort of a quiet...either tan or olive on the back pattern that...and they want...they don't like...they don't want it to be weighted so they...because they want you to be able to cast it.
Tom: Yep.
Scott: And so just a very...I can't quite find the word but I sort of say just neutral.
Tom: Subtle, subtle, yeah.
Scott: Subtle is the thing. You know, tan on the top or olive on the top. You know, rest of it basically white. And getting the right size. I was just down there recently and I don't know. They call them flathead herring or...and, you know, it's a five inch...it's probably almost close size bait and that's really...and when I fish over on the Sea of Cortez...I mean, on the Mag Bay side, same thing. I use the same, basically the same patterns. I want a fly that I can cast. And I don't really wanna be standing in the wind with the waves and having something with lead on it.
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Scott: Because if...it's gonna hurt me or my rod.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: And I might have to turn this way or turn that way and I just don't like whizzing that thing back and forth. So unweighted flies. The line is what takes your fly down, not lead attached to the hook.
Tom: Yeah, with 350 grain you don't have much trouble getting those flies down, I'd imagine.
Scott: Exactly. Exactly. That's what you're relying on to take the fly down. And you're not trying to make it sink, you know, straight down. You're just trying to get it at the level that the bait is and then you're retrieving through that...at that level. So, you know, I've facetiously in my last book which has flies for all this kind of...because it's somebody's minnow. I'm not sure whose minnow it is but it's just how I tie my minnows, right. And so that...and everybody's got their slightly different variation and you might...you know, you stumble upon some different material and you think, "Oh, yeah. This is...this really works well." And there are always some latest and greatest slinky this, fish this, you know, that you've been...and then you get it mixed up in your tying kit and go, "What is this stuff anyway?" But I know what I want. You know, and you reach for that stuff and you still can't quite remember the name.
Tom: I'm glad you have that problem because I am always wondering what the hell flash or hair is that in that bag.
Scott: Right, right. Is it sea hair, see-through hair?
Tom: Yeah, kinky hair, fluorofibre.
Scott: Yes. Exactly, exactly. That's the exact same thing. But what you want is those captains to open up your box and they just go, "Yeah, this one right here." And they hand it to you because they want the...you know, rooster fish especially. Dorado were put on this Earth to make us all feel like better anglers than we are. And that's why we love them so much and they're beautiful and they fight as good as any fish that's out in the ocean.
Tom: Yeah, and they taste good and they grow fast.
Scott: And they taste good too. And they just love the fly. They just simply love it. And so that's one thing. But those rooster fish on the other hand have those big eyes and they'll come up right by, you know, look at a fly and just say no. And you have no questions like, "Boy, that fish just rejected that fly. You know, he was ready to eat. He wanted to eat. And he said no." And those captains watch that and they look at the flies and then they have a sense that...yeah. You need to...let's put on something else. And of course, you know, it is fishing. No one's got all the answers. You fish for all the hard fish in the world too and so sometimes it's like that and sometimes they eat it and you don't know why and that's what is so much fun.
Tom: Yeah, that's why we keep doing it, yep. Yeah.
Scott: Yeah.
Tom: Exactly.
Scott: Yeah, yeah.
Tom: All right, Scott. Well, that was a great overview. I learned a ton and it was fascinating and I wanna thank you for taking the time to talk to me today.
Scott: Well, it's my pleasure. It's more technical talk than we probably shared ever. And I appreciate talking about what I know and hopefully others will find it interesting as well.
Tom: Yeah. Thank you so much. And you got me thinking about how I can get to Baja someday. I wanna try it.
Scott: Well, I can plug my buddy Gary Bulla and that's one operation down there that I know is about as good as it gets and is lots and lots of fun. Lots of fun.
Tom: Yeah.
Scott: Yeah.
Tom: All right, Scott. Well, thank you so much. Again, we've been talking to Scott Sadil who is the...probably most people know you as the Fly-Fishing Editor of "Gray's Sporting Journal" these days and author of a number of books.
Scott: All righty.
Tom: All right, Scott.
Scott: It's been great, Tom.
Tom: I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. in the body of an email or as a voice attachment. You can find more free fishing tips on howtoflyfish.orvis.com.