Small stream bluelining in the Rockies, with Jeremie Prine
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And this week we're going to be talking about blue lining again, because I know a lot of you are tired of the crowds, and like to get away into streams where you don't see other people, you don't see drift boats, you do some exploring. So we're going to be talking about Rocky Mountain blue lining this time. And my guest is my friend Jeramie Prine, who is the owner of Dunoir Fly Fishing Adventures in Dubois, Wyoming. And Jeramie does a lot of small stream fishing and a lot of exploring. He boat guides on small streams, and does it himself personally. And has a real passion for it. And he's very, very knowledgeable. I know I learned some things that I'm going to try my own small stream fishing doing this podcast, so I hope you enjoy it as well.
But before we get to Jeramie, let's do the Fly Box. And the Fly Box is really what makes this Fly Box what it is, I think what makes it so popular. Some people skip the Fly Box because they think a lot of the questions are too basic. But I know it's a hugely popular part of the podcast, and that's thanks to you. So I just want to thank all of you who contribute to this podcast by sending in questions or just by listening. But I just want to thank the listeners out there because you make this podcast. And very often...in fact, almost always the topics are chosen based on the questions you ask, and what I know you are interested in hearing about. And I also look at the download numbers to see which ones are the most popular. Anyway, let's do the Fly Box. And you can send your question in, or comment, or a complaint, or a tip to me at
So the first one is an email from John. "Hi, Tom. I recently went to Wyoming, as I do almost every year, to visit a friend and do some fly fishing. We stopped into a local fly shop and picked up some nymphs the shop recommended, and headed out to the North Platte River. When we got to the river, we walked into an absolutely epic trico hatch, and there were rising fish everywhere. We ditched our plans of nymphing and tied on some dry flies. I happened to have some flies that matched the hatch, but these were inexpensive flies purchased from an online fly shop. I hooked into 6 or 7 trout, all 18 inches or bigger, but I didn't bring a single one to the net. After every fish, I noticed the hook on my size 16 dry fly was bent and opened up."
"Did I lose all these fish because my hooks were bending on my inexpensive flies? Do small hooks usually bend after catching large fish even if they are high quality, more expensive flies? Should I get rid of these cheap flies and replace them with more expensive ones? This is a problem I have never really experienced before, as I'm usually fishing in my home state of Minnesota for brook trout. They never get much larger than 14 inches. Even though I didn't bring a fish to the net, it was sheer fun battling all those fish, and it still felt like a good day on the river. Thanks, Tom. I look forward to hearing your thoughts."
Well, John, it's always fun to fool and to hook fish like that. But it's also...you don't feel quite complete until you land them. Right? And I'm sorry that that happened. And I'm also sorry to report that it was probably because the inexpensive flies you bought were inexpensive for a reason. They probably used cheap, low-quality hooks. And a size 16 dry fly hook in the 20-inch trout shouldn't be bending the hook out. I mean, it can happen occasionally if you're fishing a really heavy tippet on that smaller hook. It'll happen once in a while. But for it to happen time and time again, as you experienced, yeah, they were bad hooks, a bad batch of hooks, they weren't tempered properly, or the wire wasn't strong enough.
So yeah, I think that you get what you pay for when you buy flies. And if you want those cheap flies, just be aware that the hooks may fail, or the flies are going to fall apart a lot quicker than high quality flies that you buy either from a reputable online fly retailer, Orvis, or any of the other online places, Fly Fish Food, or any place that you know and recognize, or you get them from a fly shop. These kind of random cheap fly places that pop up here and there, not so much. You could get lucky. And then again, you could not.
Devon: Hey, Tom. Devon here from Kingston, New York, driving home from the Delaware River once again [inaudible 00:05:37] I'm an angler with no redeemable qualities, merits, talent, skills, whatsoever. Hoping to pick your brain on a few questions that are on my mind. The first one is about nymph selectivity. And I'm wondering when I see mayflies under rocks, let's say size 16s or whatever, and know that they are hatching this time of year, how far I need to deviate away from the world of pheasant tails and hare's ears? Are there times in those tried and true mayfly under a rock imitators don't cut it? How far do I need to consider going into more specific imitations of naturals when it comes to nymphing? I could obviously not be catching trout on my nymphs for any number of reasons that are not the pattern. But I'm wondering how much to think about going outside of those patterns, the tried and true ones, if they have their limits?
The second question is about fishing high turbid water with blue skies and sun. Today I encountered this, and because I was apprehensive of putting on a nymph rig with tiny nymphs, which would be hard to see in the turbid water, or hard to get down because I've just heard so much about how streamer fishing is not as effective when there is sun and blue skies. I decided to put on a Wooly Bugger, and trail a couple of wet flies behind it, thinking I would be kind of like a hybrid, fishing boat, a streamer. And what flies to try to make the most of the conditions? Obviously, I got totally duped and skunked. And I'm wondering how you think about those conditions, and how you think about the approach I ended up taking. Do you think it's effective?
And my final question is about how you approach big water, big rivers, especially in sections that run from long flat pools into 4000 miles of somewhat featureless riffles. I've read a bunch of your stuff, and breaking down riffles kind of systematically, and looking for the tiny seams [SP] that exist in depressions of rocks. I try to do that. But sometimes in these massive riffles that go on for miles, I feel so hopeless. And if I walk upstream, I've got a 20-mile hike through a flat pool, and if I walk downstream, it's another 4000 miles of the riffles, and then another pool. And anyway, I'm just wondering how you think about those scenarios, stretches of water? And if you have any reflections or general thoughts about it? I appreciate you always and all that you do. And hope to hear from you. Cheers.
Tom: So Devon, these are really great questions, kind of questions I like. So first of all, looking under rocks does give you some idea of the size and the general coloration of the nymphs in the water you're going to fish. Now, most of the coloration is going to be the same. They're mostly going to be kind of brownish, tanish, grayish, not much variation there. But the size is important. And you know the type of flies, whether it's a caddis fly, or mayfly, or a stone fly. And it'll give you an idea of what the fish might be eating, and what they might expect to see. But I have...I do this a lot, and then I go out and I catch a fish on a pheasant tail or a rainbow warrior, or something that doesn't really look a lot like the flies under the rocks.
I mean, certain rivers seem to have nymphs that just work well, whether it's a color of the water, or the behavior of the bugs, or whatever. Certain nymphs just work better in certain rivers. And that can also change from day to day. But looking under rocks can give you an idea. However, in most cases, I think that you can generally get away with a hare's ear or a pheasant tail in 80% to 90% of the situations. It's all about how you're fishing, the depth that you're fishing it, and the type of water that you're fishing it. But I would not hesitate. I mean, that's what I'm going to start with first is some sort of bead head hare's ear or a pheasant tail when I don't know what's going on. And I'll try to match the size of the nymphs that I see. But sometimes going bigger than what you see, sometimes going smaller works. So no hard and fast rule there, but keep on using those hare's ears and pheasant tails.
Regarding high turbid water with blue skies in sun. Good luck. I have never been able to have any kind of consistent success in that kind of water. I think it may be like high beams in a fog type situation where the fish are just kind of blinded by all the flare with all the debris in the water. And also, high turbid water brings a lot of debris down, and the fish probably get tired of trying to sort out the edible stuff from the inedible stuff because there's just so much junk coming down. And with the bright sunlight, that doesn't do you any good. I do think that in turbid water in general, you need to have some action on your fly, either by twitching it or by swinging it, because you have to distinguish what you're throwing out there from all the floating junk. And dead drifting and nymph probably isn't going to work as well because the junk is dead drifting.
So you have to let the fish know that what you have on the end of your line is something that's alive, and not another piece of debris. So I think swinging a fly, I think what you did, a Wooly Bugger with wet flies is an absolutely great idea, and probably the best thing you could have done in that high turbid water. But don't be discouraged if you don't catch anything, because in my experience, it's just a low percentage proposition.
And then your last question, massive riffles. You have to look at the whole riffle, and you have to really get an overview of that riffle. If you're high up on the bank or on a bridge or something, look at the whole riffle and look for the deeper slots. And again, you kind of did this, but they're going to show up as a little bit smoother water instead of bumpy water, which is probably going to indicate a little bit deeper slot. Look for the foam line that goes through the pool. It's a little bit harder in a riffle, but look for that main thread of current. That's what's going to carry the most food, and probably going to have the deepest spots in the riffles. So look for that.
And of course, heads of riffles, and tails of riffles are always good places. The middle of the riffle can be tough. And then, of course, you also want to look for big obstructions. If there's a big log in a river, or a big rock that's going to break the current, and give the fish a little bit of protection, that's going to be a good place. Riffles are great, though, because they produce all the food. And also they hide fish from predators. A riffle is almost as good a cover as an overhanging tree. And so the fish will be in the riffles. You just have to find places where there's a little bit deeper water where they have a refuge to go to in case they're frightened.
So give it a try. Look them over. Every riffle's a little bit different, and at different times a year, they'll be in different places. Don't try to fish the whole riffle in one sitting...or not sitting, but standing, walking, in one day. Don't try to fish the whole riffle. Try to look for the better places. And skim the cream off the top of the riffle.
Here's an email from Taylor. "Last weekend I was fishing the Brazos River in North Texas. I prepared by stopping by the Fort Worth Orvis store to buy flies that should do well this time of year. I arrive early to fish while the water temps are around 78 degrees. While on the water, I witnessed many bass busting bait, jumping out of the water, and chasing bait in shallow water near shore. I watched dragonflies in damsel flies flying around, and presumably bass feeding on them. I had a very difficult time getting eats that day. I had flies to match the insects I saw, dragonflies and damsels. I tried streamers that closely match the bait fish. I tried one or two Wooly Buggers off my floating line. I tried a dragonfly and streamer as a dry dropper. Yet none of this resulted in any eats."
Well, Taylor, the thing about bass is that we typically think of them as pretty agreeable, and pretty easy to jump on a fly, but they're not always. They can be really difficult. And I am not really sure why. It sounds like you did everything right. I don't know if I would have done anything differently other than probably the one thing I would have tried is to use a bigger fly than than the bass for eating. Sometimes matching the hatch isn't the best thing to do with bass. And so even though they were taking dragonflies and damsel flies, sometimes a bigger popper might have worked, or a hare bug. And then with the streamers, again, sometimes trying a bigger one instead of matching the baitfish might have worked. But that's very perplexing. And I'm not exactly sure why you couldn't get any eats.
Here's an email from Chad [SP] from Malmö, Sweden. "I've been working on delicate presentations with my three and five weight rods, but ran into an issue with soft turnovers when shooting line. When I have a set amount of line out, then I can pretty consistently turn the fly over softly, and let the line and fly fall down to the water at the same time. But when I have an extra line laying at my feet, and I shoot that line to get more distance, I can almost never get the fly to turn over softly. And instead, it either crashes down into the water when the line shoots out fully, and gets stopped at the reel, or it falls on a pile where not all the extra line shoots out of the guides. I've heard other fly fishers online, the Mad Rivers people, for example, talk about stopping the cast, but this is always in the context of streamer fishing. When it comes to gentle dry fly presentations, I'm not sure how to best deal with it. Any suggestions?"
Well, Chad, first of all, most casting problems come from just a fly casting form that is not as good as it could be. So the first thing to do is check yourself and make sure that your casting form is as good as it can be. Make sure that you're stopping in the right place. Make sure you're putting enough speed into moving the rod. And that stop that people talk about really must be done on nearly every cast. A good fly cast is going to almost always require an abrupt stop, both on the back cast and on the forward cast. That's what forms the loop, and that's what straightens the line behind you. So that stop, you're going to have to always use in your casting, unless you're trying to throw a big pile of slack on purpose or something like that. And then you may not have that abrupt stop. But you've got to have it in a fly cast. So the stop is not just for...definitely not just for streamer fishing.
Regarding shooting line, I think that it is probably just going to require a little bit more practice. One of the things that I see people make the mistake in doing when they're trying to shoot line is they overpower that last false cast. And you generally don't need to overpower that last false cast. You may want to put just a tiny bit more effort on if you're going to shoot line, but not that much. And I see people really trying to...they make a cast, they make a cast, and then when they're grading shoot line, they really force the cast on that last cast. And it generally doesn't do you any good. If your casting form is good, the line is going to slip through your fingers, and stop above the water, and then fall to the water.
So one of the things you want to make sure is that you make your stop above the water. Your rod tip should not be pointing at the water. It should be parallel when you make that stop of your cast. And then you can often kind of feather the line through your fingers so that if you feel it starting to get overpowered, let a little bit more line slip through. If it feels like the cast is going to get overpowered, then slip a little bit more line through your fingers. And if it feels like the cast is maybe underpowered, then don't try to shoot so much line. But again, this is all about practice.
And I would recommend that you just go to a pond when you're not fishing, or water, or even in the backyard, and practice shooting line, and practice so that when you shoot line, the cast ends in the same manner as when you're casting a fixed amount of line. And this will take some practice, and some feathering of the line that you're shooting with your fingers. But I think that just a little bit of polish and a little bit of practice will help this problem.
Charlie: Hi, Tom. This is Charlie from Maple Plain, Minnesota. And I have a question for you regarding the handling of smallmouth bass when we're taking them off the hook and putting them back in the water. Some of my friends seem to think bass are a good deal more bulletproof than trout. But I'm curious, should we be handling smallmouths in the same manner that we handle trout along the lines of keep them wet or keep fish wet recommendations, or indeed, are they a good deal more tough, and we don't need to baby them quite so much? Thanks, Tom. Love the podcast.
Tom: So, Charlie, that's a great question. And it's one that I don't think we have a good answer from science. The scientists that I've talked to, there haven't been many studies done on...at least on fly fishing, on releasing bass, and how much it can handle them. So I think that the best thing to do is to err on the side of caution. Yeah, I would handle them the same way you would handle trout. I think bass are a little tougher. They certainly don't have as much problem with warm water temperatures. And they're a little bit tougher because they have heavier scales, and they're just a little tougher in general. But that being said, I think that you should do the same things you do with trout.
In other words, keep them in the water, keep their gills wet. If you want to pick one up for a picture, pick it up quickly, take a picture, and get it back in the water. And then play them as quickly as possible, and release them as quickly as possible. It's always...it's almost always handling time, too much handling time that can injure or kill fish. So I'd be careful with them. But yeah, you're probably right. They're a little bit more bulletproof than trout, but I still think we should err on the side of caution. Another thing, Charlie, before I end this question is that bass shouldn't be lipped and lifted out of the water. If you want to lip a bass, that's fine, but keep them horizontal and keep them in the water. You can still use that lower jaw as a handle, but just don't use it as a handle to lift a fish out of the water, but keep it in the water, and think you're going to be much better off.
Here's an email from Jacob. "When you're fishing tiny mountain streams where fish aren't ever going to be too big, and you're only throwing small dry flies, would you ever use a two-weight or even a one-weight rod? I currently have a full flex four-weight that feels leaps and bounds better than my fast action five-weight. Would using a lighter weighted line like down to a two-weight or even bamboo or glass continue to be more and more fun on small streams? If not, then what applications could a one or two-weight rod be used for?"
So, Jacob, yeah. If all your flies are small and your fish are small, even if your fish aren't small, but if all your flies are small, definitely one or two-weight rod can be fun in a small stream. They land lighter. The rods are lighter. They're fun to play a small fish on. And it's really related to the size flies you're going to fish. I mean, in small streams, I fish a lot of bigger flies. I fish 8s and 10s and 12s a lot, big dry flies. And I often fish dry dropper. And sometimes...I typically use a three-weight, but a four-weight is even better for some of these bigger, more air-resistant flies. So it's all about the size flies you're going to cast. But if you're fishing 12, 14, 16, 18 flies, yeah, a 1 or a 2-weight rod can be great fun.
Where else these rods are used? A lot of people will use these rods on bigger rivers, but it's where they're...generally they're dry fly fishing or site nymphing, and they're sneaking up and stocking fish, and getting really close to the fish, and just making a soft, accurate cast. So they're not just restricted to small streams. Medium to large streams, you can use those shorter, lighter rods. They're quite accurate, and they're quite delicate. And sometimes you want that when you're head hunting big fish in a river. And they'll certainly handle playing a larger trout with no problem at all.
Here's an email from Christian from the UK. "I'm new to fly fishing this year, and have started diving into the rich resource of your podcast back catalog. I'm up to about 2011 and have a couple questions. Sorry if you've covered this before. In the UK we have rainbow trout which I think were imported from the U.S. and used as stock fish in some lakes and some rivers." That's correct. "And brown trout which are native, and I think we exported to you." And thank you very much, Christian. "Is it safe to assume that behaviors, fly patterns, and tactics you suggest will be the same here for these species? Secondly, we have sea trout, which are browns that are migratory, with the behavior and tactics you suggest for steelhead, which I think are migratory rainbows, be similar."
So regarding your rainbows and browns, yeah, rainbow trout are rainbow trout, and brown trout are brown trout. And they do have slight differences in their feeding preferences, their behavior, their habitat preferences. But with my experience in fishing, in the UK they're going to be about the same. They're going to take the same flies and live in the same kind of water. So I think that anything you hear about rainbow trout or brown trout in the U.S. is going to be applicable over there in the UK. Now, every river's different, but even in the States, when you go from one river to the next, recommended fly patterns, and where are the fish you are going to be feeding, and the right time of year, that's going to vary with each river, and no different over there. Your rivers are going to vary as well.
Regarding the sea trout, I have not caught many sea run brown trout. But as I understand it, they're going to be typically...yes, they're going to behave a lot like any other migratory salmon and steelhead, or even Atlantic salmon. I know that sea trout tend to be a little bit more nocturnal than steelhead or Atlantic salmon. And a lot of fishing goes on for them at night, or late evening, or early in the morning. I think they tend to take better in those situations. But yes, the same types of flies, and the same swung flies should work for your sea run brown trout. But that's something you should probably research over on your side of the pond, talk to some local fly shops, or some local experts in your area because, again, I don't know that much about sea run brown trout.
Here's an email from Dan from Idaho. "Just got through listening to your interview with Wade Phelan, and I thought it was excellent. Both of you were really thoughtful and evenhanded. I also agreed with his point that Montana should still be open for fishing as long as it's done responsibly. Getting off the water when the water temp is over 68 degrees, releasing fish quickly, etc. One other way of being responsible occurred to me, and that's to really wash waders and boots well, after fishing the big hole watershed, and before fishing in different watersheds. This is a good practice in general, but particularly if there is a biologic agent at work killing these fish. I would also add that using a thermometer has more positive aspects, and not just as a signal of when to get off the water. I use one all the time, and I really find knowing the water temperature helpful in predicting the kind of water fish will be holding in. I really appreciate your efforts to talk about environmental issues. While these interviews may not be as popular as how to's on catching bigger fish, in the long run, they may be a bit more important."
Well, thank you, Dan. And that is a really, really good point that we don't know what's going on with these fish. And people should take extra care in cleaning their gear. So the recommended practice, and I said this again and again, and I get questions about it all the time is clean, inspect, and dry. So first of all, clean your waders with a hose, with a strong hose. Clean all the debris off everything. Laces inside the boots, especially the soles. And then inspect them. And if you still see some debris, clean them again, then dry them if you can. Now it's difficult. Some wading shoes take a couple of days to dry off.
So I think we're trying to minimize risk here, and just do the best you can to dry these things off. I mean, waders dry quickly. Waders dry in a matter of an hour or so. Wading boots, not so much, depending on what kind of wading boots you have, particularly with felt. So it'd probably be a good idea not to wear felt in the big whole watershed because felt does take longer to dry. But a really good cleaning, maybe a scrubbing with a wire brush, hot water if you can get it, if not, cold water with a lot of force is good. And just make sure that every little last bit of debris is off your stuff, and you're going to minimize the risk of transporting aquatic invasives.
Here's an email from Peter. "Dear Tom, I am an avid listener of your podcast. I simply love it. Every season, I'm trying to improve my fly fishing. This season, I'm focusing on downstream presentations and mending line really fast. I've got several fish on super long drifts, mending all the way to the backing knot and sometimes even longer. This is great fun, but I've noticed that long mends are very hard to perform when it rains. When wet, the fly line keeps sticking to the rod, making fast mending very difficult. Have you experienced this effect yourself, Tom? And if so, do you have a solution that can alleviate the problem? Thank you for taking the time to read my question."
Well, Peter, I had to laugh at your question. I'm not laughing at you. My fishing buddy, Sean Combs, is known for fishing using these long drifts where he feeds line into the guides, downstream feeds more line, feeds more line, feeds more line, feeds more line. Sometimes he gets into his backing knot. And it just drives me crazy, particularly when we're both fishing from a boat because he's always missing strikes. And my philosophy is to get closer to the fish, and then just drill it right ahead of the fish. And just get a good straight drag-free float for the distance that you need. I mean, you don't need more than a couple of feet of float over a feeding fish.
And so I had to forward your email to Sean and ask him if he was related to you because you're using the Combs method. And boy, I don't recommend downstream fishing. I mean, it sounds like it's working for you. I don't recommend downstream fishing to the point where you're [inaudible 00:32:49] your backing knot. You're going to have trouble hooking fish. But if you're going to do it...line sticking to the rod, the only thing I can suggest is that you make sure that your line is clean. It's going to slip through the guides a little bit better. But I don't know of any way to keep wet line from really sticking to the rod. You might try putting a little paste wax, car wax on your rod, buffing it up, put a little paste wax on your rod and buffing it up. That won't hurt the rod, and it might keep the line from sticking to the rod. But if I were you, I'd make shorter downstream presentations.
Here's an email from Jim from Colorado. "I was listening to one of the podcasts, the one with Chris Nicholls, I believe. He talked about the net, and how it messes with auto focus. I generally do not like how it looks in the picture myself. So I happened to have left over some Rit Dye and brown lying around. I filled a bucket, and hit my white net with the brown dye. It took. I have attached some pictures to show you the results. One picture has the original white net. The other two are after the dye job. You can see that the net now disappears into the water when submerged. It also blends to the water below a bit better when out of the water. I think you mentioned olive as a possible net color. That may be a good one to try. I wanted to let you know that the dye took, and it's possible to change the color of your net if you would like."
Well, Jim, what a great suggestion. I'm going to try that myself. Yeah. The glare of the white net does full the auto focus on some cameras. And also the pictures aren't as nice against that white net. So I think that your idea is terrific. And I'm going to start...I'm going to die my net in the next couple of days and give it a try. So thank you very much for that tip.
Here's an email from George in New Mexico. "I know hoppers are a staple for bass, and that they respond to matching the hatch as much as the next fish. That said, on my local rivers and ponds, and once, to her delight, on my daughter's window, the grasshoppers routinely reach three to four inches in their adult stage, a bit larger than the size 6 to 10 flies we tie. My question is this, is there a reason not to upsize a fly like making a GFA hopper, the size of an old Mr. Wiggly, for example?"
No, George, I don't think there is. It may be tough to get the materials to tie a really giant hopper, but then again, you may not have to worry because, in my experience, a bass that's going to eat a hopper will often eat a popper or a hare bug just as easily. They're eating surface food. They're probably not going to be that selective. They're looking up. And again, as I said in a previous question, I don't think you necessarily have to always match the hatch for bass. They're opportunistic feeders, even more so than trout. And you can try those bigger hoppers, certainly. You may try to use some of the bigger foam stone fly imitations as well. Those make good hopper imitations. And I think it'd be easier to tie a big grasshopper using foam than some of the standard materials. So give it a try and good luck.
Here's an email from John in California. "In addition to what you've shared during past podcasts, I wanted to get your thinking about some things I've experienced when try to land big fish. I'm a retired university professor of scientists and engineers who is enjoying fly fishing in your podcasts that encourage youth to join us elders in caring for beautiful outdoors. This is not about fishing those wonderful small blue line streams that you love so much. Rather I'll use as my example fishing for big trout in a Freestone River about 30 to 40 feet wide, up to about 4 feet deep, shallow in the banks. After years of bad beginner knot, snapping tippets jerked too hard, and big fish lost holding them downstream, I've concluded landing one is all about the physics of leverage. Leverage is the key word."
"I no longer believe fish are deliberately trying to snap our tiny tippets. Instead, they're trying to get leverage to twist and thus get the hook out of their jawbone. Leverage is their focus, not power to break tippets. Here's my example. I lose most of my big fish when they're straight downstream, and I'm holding my reel still line taut, and when the fish moves in shallow water, slow water near the bank, and I'm standing on about 20 feet or more away from me. I wait to see what the big one is going to do next, and a few seconds later, I notice my line has gone slack. I start to retrieve it and find the fish is off. I felt nothing as it twisted the hook out. I've concluded that the fish spent its time trying to get leverage."
"The fish tried to get my line straight as an arrow with my rod flat to the water line straight, and the same with the leader and tippet, all straight pointed downstream to where the trout easily goes to get stationary. There's no stream current to fight. Great place to get leverage. Then with a quick U-turn, pop. The hook is off. I'm always amazed that they have the strength to do that quick twist underwater. I've been told they're so strong that a trout can accelerate to 30 miles an hour in 10 feet. They'll aim to do the same leverage attempt in deep water where on the bottom, current is nearly zero. The fish gets leverage, does a quick U-turn, and twists, it's off. It's the same when they leap."
"A fish will dive to the bottom, drag some of my long heavy floating line below the water, then make a sharp vertical turn in an instant, rockets up through the surface water with my heavy line now resisting, and my leader has gone straight. At the top of [inaudible 00:38:59] it does a quick flip, twist, and pop, it's off. Yes, fish do snap tippets, that's for sure. If I give some slack when they make a strong pull to get the line and leader straight, that suddenly gets rid of the slack, and the shock is too much or the tippet, it snaps. I think that was by accident, not deliberate."
"I changed my tactics and now I land more consistently big ones. I land them quicker to avoid harming them. Here are a couple of things I do, several the opposite of what I used to do. Tell me what you think of them. I'd like to learn more from you, Tom. Number one, try to get below the fish downstream as much as possible. Planning that before you cast. Keep it moving, never stationary. Either you are reeling in, or it is pulling line away from you. Keep it in fast water. Slow water gives it a superior advantage. Keep your rod tip lower to the water. Don't get it straight up. They don't like to be pulled up to where ospreys and eagles are looking and waiting. Keep them confused about what to do next. Keep moving your rod side to side like a windshield wiper. During a leap, let the line go soft, a bit loose, sliding gently under your forefinger against the cork. That soft line reduces the chance of giving leverage to the fish. I found that trying to dip the rod to the proverbial bow to the fish, I cannot dip quickly enough. As a fish re-enters the water, gently tighten up your line. No jerking."
"Use the tip section of your rod to absorb the shocks from the fight and you'll never break off a 6X tippet. A master guide challenged me to break a 6X tippet on his line as he held his rod. He bent his rod into a big C, as I tried everything to snap the tippet, but finally gave up an exhaustion. Competition team members in Italy told me they land 20-inch trout on 2-weights and never break a rod or tippet. Watch videos to see pros like the Jensens land trophy trout giants in New Zealand that way. To do this, you'll have to change a lot. They will feel weird and scary at first. You must keep your rod in a huge U-shape like the letter C. Yes, you ought to put a lot of pressure on your rod. Get much of it behind you. No, your rod will not explode and break into 1000 pieces. It will just feel that way. You can get used to that feeling. It took me a while. Takes guts at first. You can also do that and win."
"That's what I think is going on with me, Tom, I'd be interested in what you think." So those are some interesting thoughts. And George, I never really...or John, I never really thought of the fact that a trout is trying to twist and not to pull away. But that does make total sense. And I agree with all of your points except a couple of them. One is keep it in fast water. fast water, I think, still gives trout the advantage because they can use the current. And I like to get fish in the slower water. Now, that being said, when I get them in a slower water, I never let up on any pressure. You get them in slow water and there's a tendency to kind of ease up on the fish, but you don't want to do that.
But when you get them in slow water, you can lead them in any direction you want because you're not having to fight the current. You can lead them up, down, sideways, whatever. So I still think that a big trout...I'm going to try to get him in slower water as quickly as I can. So I don't agree with that part.
And then the other one is I agree that you should keep a trout confused, but if you keep your rod moving from side to side like a windshield wiper, often what you're going to do is loosen that hook in their mouth because you're moving it back and forth. You're wiggling it back and forth, and you're doing what the trout is trying to do. You're going to end up twisting the hook out. So I'm not sure that...I mean, I do think you need to keep the trout off balance, but it should be a smooth pull to one side, and then a smooth pull to the other side, not a quick back and forth like a windshield wiper.
So those are my thoughts. Other than that, I think that... And one other thing. Yes. Use the tip section of your rod, particularly with light tippets. The one thing you want to be careful of is when you get a fish very close to you that you don't have the rod pass the vertical too much, because if...particularly fishing from a boat, if a fish is in deep water, or you're landing it from a boat, and the fish dives straight down, there is a chance to break a rod. It's called the high sticking. And with a really big fish that can happen. Doesn't happen that often. But you need to be careful that the angle of that rod is not so far back behind your back that you get an acute angle on the tip of the rod.
So other than that, I think those are good suggestions. And as I play fish more, I'm going to think more about the fact that...trying to twist the hook out and not just trying to pull away from me. So thank you for that piece of intelligence. That's pretty cool stuff.
Corey: Hey, Tom, this is Corey in Maryland. And I have a quick question about handling trout. I'm relatively new to fly fishing. I've been doing it just a couple of years. And three times in the last couple of months, I've caught trout. I get them in the net, and I find that the fly has been swallowed or is really deep down in the fish's mouth to the point where I simply can't get it out without really messing up the fish. I am using barbless hooks, and I'll really try to get it out. I have a good pair of Orvis hemostats, but it'll just be hooked too far down where I can't see what I'm doing. And I'm worried I'll end up hurting the fish. So what I've done is clipped the tippet as far down as I can, and simply release the fish. I feel bad doing that because I can imagine that's pretty uncomfortable for the fish, if not fatal, just leaving that fly in place. So my question is, what would you do in that situation? And do you have any tips on unhooking a fish if the fly isn't hooked simply in the fish's lip? All right. Thanks, Tom.
Tom: Corey, you did absolutely what I would do. If they're hooked deep, and I can't easily get the fly out with one try with a pair of forceps, then I'm going to clip the tippet off, and let the fish go. With the barbless hook...barbless hooks are going to get out pretty quickly. And even if the hook doesn't get out quickly, a fish can live with a fly in its throat for a long time. And by that time, the hooks are probably going to rust and fall out. But usually the hooks fall out. The fish are able to get that hook out fairly easily. And if you talk to scientists with any type of fish, if it's hooked deep, the scientists will tell you, "Yeah, just cut the line and the hook is going to come out." And particularly with barbless hooks which most of us use. So you did the right thing.
Now, you may want to question why you hooked three trouts so deeply. Maybe think about trying to strike a little quicker. Sounds like the fish got the fly way down in. And if you try to... I don't know, you didn't say if you're dry fly fishing or nymph fishing. But either way, try to strike a little quicker. And the other thing is, I suspect maybe you were using a soft like squirmy worm fly, which fish will tend to inhale a little deeper. So if you do have this problem frequently, you might want to get off the squirming worm train, and try something different that the fish is going to reject a little quicker. And that way you're going to hook them in the jaw instead of down in the throat.
All right. That is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Jeramie about blue lining in the Rocky Mountains. And also for those of you who are interested in the subject, Jeramie talks a lot about being bear aware, and protection from bears, because he does fish in grizzly country. I think that's what keeps people out of a lot of small streams in the Rocky Mountains. So I think you'll be reassured by what you're going to hear from Jeramie about bear dangers.
Well, my guest today is my friend Jeramie Prine. And Jeramie, you have probably seen some videos that we shot with Jeramie on the Orvis Learning Center because we had some just spectacular days fishing small streams in Wyoming with Jeramie. And I want to thank you for that. It was some of the best footage we shot in that entire season. And so, Jeramie, I did a podcast on blue lining. It was mainly Eastern focused, Appalachian Mountain focused. And it did really well. People really responded well to it, and appreciated it. And I think more and more people are looking to get off the more crowded rivers these days. So I wanted to do one on the Rocky Mountains. And you are an expert at finding and fishing those kind of rivers. Oh, I should mention Jeramie's outfit is called Dunoir. Did I pronounce that properly?
Jeramie: Yeah. Dunoir.
Tom: Dunoir Fly Fishing Expeditions out of...still based out of Lander?
Jeramie: Dunoir Fishing Adventures.
Tom: Dunoir Fishing Adventures.
Jeramie: Based out of Dubois predominantly.
Tom: Out of Dubois. Okay.
Jeramie: We do winter up on Lander. But yeah, out of Dubois and Thermopolis.
Tom: Yeah. And it's one of the greatest places for blue lining, for small stream fishing. And you've done it for your entire life. And I'm not going to...if people are going to expect to hear names of some streams, forget about it. We're not asking Jeramie to tell us where he fishes. You have to book a trip with Jeramie if you want to see his places. But want to talk about in general. So in general, what do you look for? I mean, you explore new small creeks every year, right? What do you look for?
Jeramie: I do. A tremendous resource is our Wyoming Game and Fish. Any of the agencies there, the management of the land is a great place to start as far as just getting real general information. Our Wyoming Game and Fish offers [inaudible 00:50:12] amount of information, probably more than most states. So I like to kind of get a general idea of areas, and what species of fish are in those areas. It's very important to figure out what you're fishing for before you actually start blue lining. You need to have kind of general background before you go and start exploring. But I would start with the Game and Fish. And then obviously with today's technology, apps like on Onix and Google Maps are worth their weight in gold, starting to explore the blue lines. And then access to the blue lines are really the key, especially around here. We have a lot of quaint roads that you have to get figured out, and what type of vehicle do you need to even access [crosstalk 00:51:05]
Tom: Quaint roads? I wouldn't call them quaint.
Jeramie: Maybe not the right word. Spicy roads. Spicy. But are you going to access with a four-wheel-drive vehicle? Obviously, if we're blue lining, we're going to want to get as far off the beaten path, and away from where we think people are going to be. That's what I really focus on when I start to explore some of the regions. For me, it starts with that. And obviously understanding the local laws and the regulations, and adhering to the rules as far as trespassing or not trespassing. What are my fishing regulations? Is it catch and release only? Which most places are around here, as you know. And then really targeting the species. Now, each species, if I figure out what's going to be in the watershed, am I fishing for cutthroat trout? They're going to act differently than if I'm fishing for a rainbow trout, or a brook trout, or a brown. So really kind of looking at that, and finding those locations that are away from those general areas. And what tributaries are coming into those areas? Where can I go explore? The general population may not want to work as hard to get to.
Tom: Yeah. People don't like to walk, for sure.
Jeramie: They don't, no. Even going to the popular destinations, if you're willing to put in a little bit of footwork and walk an hour, I usually find that fishing's going to be significantly better than just pulling up to the trailhead where everybody parks and fishes. So putting in that extra foot work goes a long way.
Tom: Something I want to explore...a little sidebar here, something I want to explore. You're in serious grizzly country there. And I think that grizzly bears are one of the reasons that a lot of these streams don't get explored very much. And I get questions all the time, "What should I do? Should I worry about it? What should I carry?" Let's talk just a little bit about being bear aware, and getting off the beaten path maybe by yourself, or with one other person, and what you need to do, because people are really insecure about that.
Jeramie: Yeah. And it's a real insecurity to have. They are at the top of the...the grizzly bears are at the top of the food chain out here. But we live and we work amongst them, and we have very little exposure to them. I really do not recommend people heading out alone. Not just for grizzly bears, but for their own safety. It takes a rolled or a broken ankle to not be able to get out of some of these hard to reach places. So I really think it's important that you at least have one person with you, an extra set of eyes. On our trips, whether it's personal or we're guiding, we always have bear spray with us.
I get a lot of clients that ask, "Should I be packing a sidearm?" And I don't recommend it. Bear spray has been proven to work much better than a firearm. And people, they may have a firearm, but they're not practicing every day like law enforcement would be, and they're not going to do well under stress. So around here, having bear spray is a huge safety net for me. It makes me feel a lot better. And then anybody who fishes with me is going to have bear spray as well. If you need a secondary firearm to make yourself feel better, then by all means, bring it.
But the big thing is making noise and paying attention to your surroundings. If you come across a carcass, or you start smelling a carcass, it's probably time to work around that location, and be very aware of what you're seeing. There's freak accident that happen where you bump [inaudible 00:55:29] and a cub, or a couple of cubs out here. And that happens very, very...not very frequently. So I appreciate that people are nervous about bears. They should be. But you can't let fear rule out your adventure. You have to go out there and explore. And just be prepared, and make noise, and keep your eyes out.
And it's hard with fishing, though. Right? You get really focused on that little fly, and you're not paying attention to what's next to you or behind you. So singing a song loudly while you're fishing is not a bad thing. I make a lot of noise in bear country, and that's really served me well. And it served our guests well also. But there is power in numbers, take a partner, and take your bear spray, and don't be worried about it. Hopefully you get the opportunity to see a magnificent beast as a bear, and they run the other way when you see them.
And most often they don't want to have anything to do with us, just like we don't want to have anything to do with them. They're going to...if you don't shock them and spook, or move them off of carcass, then you're going to be okay.
Tom: Okay. Yeah. I was kind of disappointed when we fished with you. We didn't see one. And I was kind of hoping to see one.
Jeramie: No. Right? That's right. In all our guide trips this year, we've only seen one grizzly bear on a guided trip. And it was running across the road in a location that we fish high up in the mountains. And we love when guests are able to see very safely from their vehicle. But we have bumped bears while we've fished. Usually it's early season, so early season in the spring and then in the fall, those are two times where you have to be extra vigilant when you're fishing. In October, especially in October, bears go into a stage called hyperphagia where they're trying to eat as much calories as they can before the winter hits. And they don't often think logically like they do in the summertime. So being being extra special...or being extra careful in the fall is super important. [crosstalk 00:57:53]
Tom: Okay. Have you ever had to use bear spray on a guide trip?
Jeramie: I have never had to use bear spray, guided or unguided. I do a lot of solo hunting expeditions up here in bear country, and that's the worst thing that you can do. I don't recommend it. But I've never had to deploy bear spray in all my time up here. And I've been very close to grizzly bears a couple of times, a lot closer than I wanted to be. But the bears were afraid of us, and eventually ran off. Sometimes they will give you a mock charge, and you just have to keep your wits about you. And it's like a dog. You can't show fear, which is hard. You have anywhere from a 300 to 700 pound bear. You have to keep your calm, and just use your problem solving skills quickly. But no, I have never had to use bear spray. And I've spent a lot of time in the woods. So if that makes anyone feel better. Not to say it can't happen, but...
Tom: Well, it's a lot more dangerous driving to the river probably than worrying about bears.
Jeramie: Yes, I would agree with that. I would agree with that.
Tom: All right, so let's get back to fishing. So you said something interesting. You said that you want to know what species are prevalent in a particular blue line in a small stream, if you can. And you said you'll fish differently for cutthroats, browns, rainbows, or brook trout. Tell us how you would approach each...if it's cutthroat streams, brown trout stream, how you would approach it and what you would do in this blue lining?
Jeramie: Yeah, Tom. When you initially asked me about blue lining around here, it's not only species, but it's season that you've got to be paying attention to, because seasons are going to be producing different bug life, and trout are going to be acting differently during different seasons. I've really been thinking about that as I've been guiding through this year. Right now, our cutthroats, when we're going to different areas, they're really tucked up deep into those banks right now. It's just that season. So I will show up to a river. Maybe I'm flashing it for the first time. It's been a year since I've fished it. Or it's a new water. I am really going to be looking at...I'm going to start with bug life, and see what is there.
And then if I know that I'm fishing for cutthroat, that's going to determine maybe some different flies that they like to key [SP] on. And then paying attention to those hatches. We just had our stone fly hatch here, and it's been interesting. It's been kind of starting out in the mornings with...I've noticed some...a couple caddis, and some pale morning duns. And then in the afternoon, the stone flies have started going off and fishing really picks up. It's easy to get frustrated when you get to a location, and then the trout aren't keying in on what you want, or the fish aren't keying in on what you want.
That's where your observation skills are super important, looking at pulling up locks, seeing what the macro invertebrates are in that watershed, and paying attention to the water. And then focusing on the species. Right now with us, it's cutthroat that we are really focused on. And currently they're up in the banks, they're up really tight. Now you get into a [inaudible 01:01:36] that's all rocks and there's no foliage, we haven't been finding cutthroat trout there. They've been very specific to the water that they're holding in right now.
Now as the season progresses, when you and Mark were out here last, we were finding trout, and they were in the foliage as well, but they had moved into some of those deeper runs where it's rocks on both sides of the banks. And it just changes as the season changes. And being aware and using your observation skills to see where the trout are, and then start determining their food sources, and targeting fish like that. That's kind of how we approach things.
Tom: Okay, so how about brown trout? Let's say you got a small stream, and you suspect there's brown trout in there, predominantly brown trout. How would you fish that differently?
Jeramie: I feel like they're going to be in...oftentimes they're going to be in a little bit deeper water, at least here. I know it's different with each river, but they are usually a little bit deeper water here. And there has to be structure for them. They're kind of like wolves. They like to hide out, and they will...they seem very predatory. A little less likely sometimes to come up to the surface like a cutthroat. So running dry dropper rigs, which we run out here a lot in the summer. You're kind of covering both bases at once. You're covering for the cutthroat, and then you're covering for a brown trout potentially. I mean, [inaudible 01:03:19] dries as well, for sure. But we often catch them on that dropper, and it can be very successful. They like to chase as well, it seems like, a little bit more where cutthroat is going to just come out of the bottom, and you're going to see lips. And you got to be patient on that hook set.
Tom: Yeah.
Jeramie: But yeah, we'll run it...to get back to your question, we'll run dry droppers. We don't do a ton of streamer fishing around here. We do a little bit, especially on the wind. But we like to kind of start with those dry dropper setups to cover the top of the water and underneath the water.
Tom: Okay, so how about brookies? I know you have some headwater streams there with predominantly brook trout. How would you fish that differently?
Jeramie: I go what I call old school. Some of our tributaries to Wind River here are fun. It reminds me of being a kid when we're fishing for those. If I know that there are brookies in a watershed, I'm not going to throw on a huge chubby, a great big foam attractor fly. I'm going to go more traditional flies. I'll get back to the renegades and the royal wolves, things that I grew up fishing with my grandparents as a kid. And I'm just going to go smaller dry flies, try to throw some attractor flies. I will still be looking at the bug life, and kind of the structure of the stream.
The brookies around here are...they seem to be a lot easier to catch, and not as hard to track, which is nice. So running some of those old traditional patterns, it's always fun for me to get back to that because that's truly how I grew up fishing as a kid. I did not know there was anything other than dry flies when I first started fishing. So it's kind of getting back to that again. And just running those smaller traditional patterns, dry fly patterns. There are smaller fish, at least in our region. And yeah, we'll run real traditional patterns for them.
Tom: Okay. And then how about streams with rainbows or maybe rainbow cutthroat hybrid, small streams with rainbows? How would you fish those? Where would you look for the fish? How would you fish those?
Jeramie: Which we don't get a lot of that. We do in the Wind River here. There, I'm going to be kind of hitting all the areas. They seem to be less tucked into the banks. I kind of know that. And that's for here. It's different everywhere you go. They're less tucked into the banks, like the cutties and the browns. And they're more in your traditional riffles and runs. So I'm really looking for riffles and runs. And once again, here in this region, I'm going to run a dry dropper to cover both bases, and try to focus on those riffles and runs, and focus on that. And that seems to produce rainbows pretty well here.
Tom: Yeah, I think it's the same thing here in the East where we have wild rainbows. You want to look for the faster water, the riffles, the heads of the pools, and things like that. Yeah, they seem to like that the best.
Jeramie: Yeah. Well, and you mentioned the heads. When I'm fishing, I'm going to...depending on how I'm fishing that river, if I'm going up the river, then I'm going to start at the tail out of that run. It seems like a lot of the bigger rainbows are going to be hanging out at the tailout. And I know that there's exceptions to every rule, but I know when I enter into that run, pay attention to that tailout, fish side tailout, work your way all the way up through it to the head of the run. If you're fishing it from downstream up, and fishing up river.
If you have to fish it from the head to the tailout, I'll just don't forget the tailout. I think a lot of people forget that part because it seems calm. And it seems like there's probably not fish there. But most often, the bigger fish are going to be in that calmer water at the end of that run.
Tom: Okay. Do you ever fish downstream when you're fishing these small...when you're blue lining?
Jeramie: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. A lot of it's going to depend on access. And sometimes you're forced to fish down river. And you just change your technique a little bit. And it can be very successful. The bottom line is it doesn't really matter as long as you're not spooking fish, and you're getting a good presentation and good drifts, whether it's dry, or nymph, or streamer. Fishing down river can be really fun as well. You can get some really good drifts and more natural drifts if you use those currents correctly.
Tom: Okay, cool. Let's say you've been playing around with maps. You've been looking, looking someplace you've always wanted to fish. And you find a blue line that looks promising. So you drive in, you hike in, and you start fishing. And this is another question I get a lot. How much time do you spend in each little pocket? How fast do you move? How much time do you spend in each little spot?
Jeramie: I'm going to start [inaudible 01:09:13] And I might find a really good run where there should be fish. And I know that there are fish in this run, and it's a new spot. It just looks fishy. You can tell the fishy water, you just get that sense that it's fishy. And I'm going to work it. And I'm going to work probably, I might start out, if it's morning time, I'm going to start with a more natural dry fly. I'm not going to go big and extreme right away. I'm going to pay attention to the hatches, and see if I can kind of match that hatch. And then I'm going to run that. If they're not eating, then I've got to start switching flies. And I may switch two or three times in a run. I may switch 10 times in a run if I'm really convinced that there are trout there.
If I'm not getting...if I'm switching, and I'm working all of the water, and I'm getting good presentations, and I'm not getting any interest in what I'm throwing, I might bump up to the next run, and put those observational skills to the test. Again, I'm really looking at what's happening. And eventually, you're going to nail it as far as what the fish are focusing on and what they're eating. When you were out here, I remember that first day we came upon an unbelievable pool of cutthroat trout. I seem to remember you probably tied on 10 patterns in that pool. We didn't move on. We knew they were there.
Tom: Yeah. And they kept rising.
Jeramie: Yeah. And we just needed to figure out what they were eating. And you did a great job of figuring that out. You noticed those little [inaudible 01:11:04] were coming off. And eventually we started plucking fish.
Tom: Well, you picked the right fly. I mean, I was arrogant. I figured, "Oh, these are wilderness cutthroats, they don't get fish that much. I just got to throw any big old dry fly out there, and they're going to eat it." And, boy, was I wrong. They were picky. And you finally pulled a fly out of your box that worked. So, yeah, it was very interesting.
Jeramie: Well, we took our time, right? We didn't move on. There was a lot of water to fish, and we could have been like, "Okay, I'm just going to quit, and we're going to move on to a different hole." You can't do that. The bottom line is you have to figure out what those trout are focused on, what they're feeding on. And you might have to run through a ridiculous amount of switching out flies. It's something I do a lot of. And the biggest mistake you can make is being like, "Well, this fly worked here yesterday." Today is a different day, and you may just have to kind of figure it out. If it takes an hour or two hours to figure it out, eventually, if you get through enough flies, and you use your observational skills, you'll eventually find the magic ingredient. And that'll change your day quickly.
Tom: Well, that's really interesting because that is absolutely normally what I would not do. Now, those particular fish were rising steadily. So we knew there were fish there. We knew they were feeding. But, boy, if I'm in a run, and I suspect there's fish there, and I don't get fish after dozen casts, I'm probably going to move on. And it sounds like maybe I should pay more attention to changing flies.
Jeramie: It's something that I'm really big on. And I've been to a few locations where I have a paying guest, and I might...I try not to let it happen too often, but it might take an hour and a half, two hours to really figure out what they're eating. And then usually once you figure that out, and you've gone through your fly selections, and you found something that they like, it's a game changer for the day. You'll forget that suffer fast in the beginning once you start catching fish. It's a quick way to change a day.
Tom: Yeah, it sure is. How about seasons at high altitude? In your area, you're pretty high, and these streams are pretty high altitude and cold. When do you first start fishing the smaller streams, and how long do you keep going back in the season?
Jeramie: Yeah, that really depends on snowpack in the Rocky Mountain region. It's so important to attention to snowpack. If you know you're going to go to an area, whether it's Wyoming, or Colorado, or Montana, paying attention to that location snowpack is going to determine runoff, and how heavy the runoff is. And then continuing to watch that weather through the spring. Is that area getting rain, are they getting snow, are they in a drought right now? This year, at least in our region here in Dubois, we really don't start fishing things till the end of June. I tell people after the 4th of July, it's usually game on. That let's the runoff happen, waters come down.
And to be honest, I like getting out before the water is prime and peaked [SP]. For me, that's a great time to go blue lining because you're not going to run into a lot of people. Now, your technique might change. It might be more streamer fishing if the water's big. But that can be a good time, like timing that runoff. And just as it's almost off of its...it's almost perfect, that can be a great time. For us, it's usually the end of June. This year, the end of June, we had a big snowpack. And so things are a little bit later this year. We are just now into our prime. But oftentimes in the Rocky Mountains, pay attention to that, pay attention to the spring weather. And then get on it when...checking gauge stations on different waters is one thing that we do a lot of.
I'm constantly on the computer checking CFS on river flows, and really monitoring that and tracking that. I do it almost daily. I'm pretty obsessive about it because it can really...it can make or break your trip, especially if you've been planning all year, you need to get there and show up to runoff. And same with the... Go [inaudible 01:16:13]
Tom: Oh, I was just going to say, you can't find a gauging station on a lot of these blue lines. So what do you do? Look for the nearest larger river that's in the same area?
Jeramie: Yep. Yep. That's exactly right. So for us here in Dubois, I monitor the Wind River. That's going to tell me a lot of what the tributaries are doing. If the Wind River is coming down, then those tributaries are coming down too. I can even monitor down on the Bighorn 70 miles down the river, and have an idea of what's happening up here [inaudible 01:16:48]. So yeah, checking those gauge stations. And then summer, it's always peak for us, July through September. And then as you get into the fall, at least here in Wyoming, it's going to be really paying attention to NOAA and your weather apps. Because after mid-September, it's not uncommon to have a blizzard roll through. And if you're in a tricky location with a spicy road, you got to be very careful. You don't want to get yourself in trouble, and put yourself at risk of getting stuck, or having an accident in a vehicle because you slid off the road. So paying attention to that, and really watching the weather is what we look for.
Tom: How late have you fished in these blue lines up in the mountains?
Jeramie: Up in the high country I definitely get off by the end of September. But I'm really paying attention to the weather when I'm heading out in September. I'm looking at it on a daily. And then when you get out there, the weather could be wrong. So you have to really pay attention to the sky. Look what the clouds are doing. Is it getting windy, it a storm coming in, or is it a beautiful day? And so we look at that quite a bit.
Tom: Okay. Okay. And then what rod do you like for fishing these smaller streams, Jeramie? What length and line size do you find is the best or the most fun?
Jeramie: Yeah. Well, here in Dubois, we are the valley of the warm winds. It's been a very windy summer. I would prefer going a light weight rod. Three-weight, four-weight can be super fun on some of these smaller streams. The problem with those lighter rods is when the wind picks up and some of the drainages, it's going to get funneled down through those canyons, and drainages more often than not. So just to be safe, I run a five-weight rod. That gives you extra backbone for when the wind picks up. It's not as heavy as a six or a seven. So there's still kind of that fun element.
But another thing I'll do is I might start off with a smaller rod in the morning when it's not windy, and then at lunch I'll switch over to that five-weight, and start fishing with five-weight. So you kind of get the best of both worlds. I get asked that question a lot, "Can I bring my lighter weight rod?" And I tell people, "By all means, but we need to have a heavier rod for the afternoon, should the wind pick up." Because you want to have backbone to push the line through that wind.
Tom: Okay, and what length? Is there a preferred length that you use?
Jeramie: Yeah. I traditionally just use a nine-weight. I don't...
Tom: Nine foot?
Jeramie: I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm sorry. Nine foot. For my smaller rods, I'll run an eight, four and eight, six for the smaller rods.
Tom: Okay. And then what leader do generally put on in these small streams?
Jeramie: I'm going to run a 5X around here. That's about as small as I'm going to go. Fish can be pretty feisty. With the higher waters, you can get away with a little bit bigger tippet. At the beginning of the season, we're running 3X, and now we're slowly progressing to the 5X tippets.
Tom: Okay, and what length do you prefer?
Jeramie: I'm going to run nine feet of tippet, no less than nine feet. I really want to...especially on these small streams, I don't want to scare fish with my fly line. I like keeping my fly line away from my flies. It's a common mistake that I see a lot with our guests is when they cast, their fly line is way too close to their fly when they put it down. And instead of just pulling that fly line back away from the fly, they kind of leave it bunched through the presentation. And they don't have as much success. That nine feet on a small stream is more than enough. You can keep the fly line most of the time pretty much out of the water, unless you're casting upstream. But you definitely want a big distance between your line and your fly on these smaller streams.
Tom: Okay. Good suggestion. I typically use seven and a half, and I'm thinking, "I'm going fishing tomorrow. Maybe I'll use a nine footer."
Jeramie: Try it on. See if it makes a difference.
Tom: Because on bigger rivers, I generally go 12 to 15, but on smaller streams, I tell people 7 and a half. But maybe I'll reconsider that. Maybe I'll reconsider that.
Jeramie: Seven and a half works. I go extreme sometimes, but I like the nine feet, it's going to keep that fly line nice and far away from your fly.
Tom: Well, I'm not going to argue with your method because you know what you're doing. Definitely know what you're doing. Anything I missed about... I mean, obviously take plenty of water or a water filter. And preferrably, I would suggest that people use an app that will allow them to retrace their steps back. These apps work without cell service, so they still get GPS so that you can find out where you've gone, and where you're going, and how to get back if you have to retrace your steps. What else?
Jeramie: Yeah. Using the apps are very key. Just like you said, you don't need to have satellite service. The other thing that all of our guides carry is a satellite device in case something should happen. If you are one of those anglers who absolutely likes to fish alone, and you don't want to take a buddy, then you need to have a satellite device with you in case something should go wrong. I'm a big believer of them. And it's just an extra safety net. And having some sort of communication out on these locations because we don't get cell service around here. So the satellite devices are very important.
Tom: Okay. Yeah. There's lots of good ones out there these days, lots of options for those emergency satellite phones.
Jeramie: Yep, that's right. We can send text, [inaudible 01:24:13] and check weather on some of them as well, which is great. We get weather alerts also. Yeah. If you're alone, tell somebody where you're going that you trust, that is not going to give away your secret.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so we need you to mention in the Wind River area four streams that people should try. No, I'm just kidding. I wouldn't do that to you.
Jeramie: Well, definitely start with the Wind River. Wind River right in town is phenomenal. It's a great place to get started, and get your feet wet.
Tom: Yeah. I love the Wind River, right there in town, it's fantastic fishing. And the tribs [SP]...
Jeramie: There's a tremendous amount of public access on the land as well.
Tom: Yeah. Nearly everything you fish is public land, right?
Jeramie: Yeah. We are very blessed in the amount of public land that we have to fish. That's a common question I get about private water. Here we don't really need to fish any private water because there is more water than you can fish that's public here. We're very fortunate that the Game and Fish does a good job, and lots of easements [SP], and lots of public land to fish.
Tom: Yeah. Absolutely. More than you could ever fish in a lifetime, probably, just in your area.
Jeramie: Correct. I'm 46, I'm still working on fishing it, and still looking for those blue lines that we're talking about today.
Tom: Yeah. And exploring is one of the most exciting parts of it, I think. Going to a new stream, I love doing that. It's pretty cool stuff.
Jeramie: Yeah, the adventure is very fun. And even if fishing is not great, just the time spent outside and exploring is like you said, you know next time. Tomorrow maybe I won't fish that one, and I'm going to go check this blue line out.
Tom: Yeah. It's never a waste of time being out there in the woods, exploring.
Jeramie: Never. Never.
Tom: Never a wasted time.
Jeramie: Never a wasted of time. I would agree.
Tom: All right, Jeramie. Well, I want to thank you for taking time out from your busy day. I know this is prime season for you, and you're probably running ragged, but really appreciate you taking the time, and sharing your knowledge with us today.
Jeramie: Yeah. Thank you, Tom, for having me on your podcast. And I want to thank all of you listeners, and taking the time to talk to me. I really appreciate you, Tom, and everything that you do for fly fishing. And keep up the good work. Thank you, sir.
Tom: Well, thank you. I intend to keep doing it, and I intend to come fishing with you again soon because we had such a great time.
Jeramie: I can hardly wait. I can hardly wait. It was a trip of a lifetime.
Tom: You can find Jeramie's contact info on the Orvis website. It's... How do you... Dunoir?
Jeramie: Dunoir, yeah. We speak redneck French here. I apologize.
Tom: Okay, Dunoir.
Jeramie: Yep. [inaudible 01:27:27]
Tom: Dunoir Fly Fishing...
Jeramie: Dunoir Fishing Adventures.
Tom: Dunoir Fishing Adventures in Wyoming. All right, Jeramie, thank you so much. And I hope to talk to you soon.
Jeramie: Excellent. Thank you very much, Tom. I appreciate it.
Tom: Okay, bye-bye.
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