A new nymph fishing technique and the under-rated 10-foot fly rod, with George Daniel
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly-Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And my guest this week is the great George Daniel. George always has something interesting to say. He's a great teacher. In fact, he's a professor of fly fishing at Penn State. Now, this week, we're gonna talk about a couple things. One is the utility of using a 10-foot rod. You know, most of us use 8.5, 9-footers. George uses a 10-footer almost all the time, and he talks about why he likes 10-foot rods, fly rods. And then, George also has a new way of Euro-nymphing, contact-nymphing, you know, however you wanna describe it. But it's a little bit different than what you might've seen in the past and what you might've seen on the video I did with George on the Learning Center a couple years ago.
So, I think you'll be really interested in seeing what George is doing. He's constantly questioning and evolving his fishing techniques, so it's always good to catch up with George. And before we start the Fly Box, I just wanted to give you a heads up on a product. The Orvis PRO insulated hoodie is one of our most popular products. And I consider it an essential piece of tackle anytime that the weather is cool. It keeps me warm, it's light, it's cozy, it packs down to almost nothing. And boy, if it suddenly gets cold and you need an extra layer, this is the thing to carry. I wear it all winter long, and I wear it in spring and fall as well. It's a great three-season jacket. And it's now available in some new colors. So, new colors are always interesting. It's now available in a blackout color, a camo, a shadow camo, and ink, which is kind of a dark blue. So, if you like that PRO insulated hoodie, or if you haven't tried one, I highly recommend it. And as I said, it's an essential piece of tackle for me at this time of year, or almost any time of year, except when it's really hot.
All right. And now, let's do the Fly Box. Fly Box is where you ask me questions and I try to answer them for you. You can either just type your question into your email or you can attach a voice file and then email that to me at
So, Alan, yeah, you can absolutely use a polyleader. I would use the longer version of polyleader, and probably the longer one and the heaviest one. You can get the extra high density. It will get your fly down a bit. I think you're actually better off bringing a second reel with a depth charge line if you're fishing for stripers. That's what I would do. But you can certainly try the polyleader and saltwater won't hurt it at all. Those polyleaders are certainly just fine to use in saltwater and saltwater won't hurt them at all. So, you can give it a try and see how it works for you.
Here's another email from Walton. "My question today is around what strategies to utilize during low-flow season. In Colorado, we're starting to see much lower flows, and it's making fishing tougher in my go-to spots. If I do find fish, they're normally very small and not the typical size for the river. In your opinion, what are a few of the key elements to have success in lower flows? Should I be focusing on deeper pools during this time where perhaps fish are stacking up due to low conditions? Also, the other day, I was only able to pull one or two fish out of each run. Are fish more easily spooked by fighting fish during lower flows? It certainly can't be due to my poor angling skills." So, Walton, lower flows are always tougher to fish.
You know, a lot of the bigger fish will stay a little bit more hidden during lower flows because they're exposed to predators. So they're gonna be in tougher places to get to. Not necessarily in deep pools. They may be in the deeper water, but they could also be in shallower water where there's a large rock or a log or something protecting them. Since, you know, the predator birds can see them during low flows, they're gonna be a little bit harder to find. And absolutely, the fish are going to be spookier during low flows. They're gonna be more cautious. They can see you more easily. And as I said before, the low clear water makes them more visible to predators, so they're gonna be a lot more nervous. And you probably won't catch as many fish during lower flows as you would when the water is higher.
You know, it's funny, in a lot of rivers I fish, you catch the big fish earlier during high flows, and then you don't see the big fish all summer long, and you think they're gone, but there they are next spring again. So, they find somewhere to hide. One of the things I might suggest, first of all, you're gonna wanna use longer leaders, lighter tippets probably, and a lot more stealth. You wanna try to keep your profile low, don't move too fast, don't make splashing noises in the river or don't push waves in the river. And also, you might consider fishing broken water. It's easier to fish, easier to get close to the fish. The fish actually feel quite secure in riffled water because it breaks the surface and predators can't see them, and they know that. So, they sometimes migrate toward faster broken water and riffles, as well as deeper pools. So, give that a try. Hope it helps.
Ben: Hi, Tom, this is Ben in Oregon. First, I just want to thank you for your books. Your books have been instrumental in my development as a fly angler. They mean a lot to me. Recommendation for your listeners, a book I just finished, "The Habit of Rivers," by Ted Leeson. Ted's a professor at Oregon State University. Go Beaves. I'm on my way to the Metolius River. There is no guiding allowed on the Metolius River. There's another weird one here in Oregon, on the lower Deschutes, there is no fishing from a floating device. You can take the drift boat down the river, but you've gotta pull over and get out to do any fishing. Obviously, these regulations are in place to keep bodies off the water, keep some space between anglers.
I'm not into gatekeeping and I don't think anybody loves the rules all that much, but I understand and I've come to appreciate these two weird little rules here. My question is, do you know of any other weird esoteric regulations? I know Vermont's pretty low on regulations and rules, but any other weird obscure angling regulations that you've come across in the world? Just curious. Thanks, Tom.
Tom: Well, Ben, I absolutely agree with you. Ted Leeson is a fine writer. He's he's a good friend. And I think he's one of the finest writers in the fly fishing world. Not as well known as some of the other authors, but just as good as some of the more famous essay writers that you might have heard of. You know, there are a lot of strange, not strange, but different angling regulations. You know, for instance, you can't use a drop-shot rig in California, can't have your weight below your fly. You know Barbara's hook is not really a weird regulation, but you need to pay attention to local laws, state laws, and then on specific rivers to make sure you're fishing barbless.
There are a lot of regulation on where you can put a weight and how much distance between the weight and the fly you can have. There's also some places where it's illegal in fly fishing. Only areas to use things like squirmy worms. Any rubber or plastic-bodied fly, I know, is illegal in some places. So, again, it always makes sense to pay attention to the local regulations or, you know, even river-by-river regulations. I can't think of any really weird ones. But, you know, there are unusual and unexpected regulations in some rivers. Let's do another email. This one is from Ryan. "How often do you find yourself adjusting the indicator depth when nymphing on a medium large river that's 50 to 100 feet across and 2 to 8 feet deep? I find myself sort of setting and forgetting, usually err on the side of a deeper depth. Should I be adjusting depth between the back of a run in the middle and again at the head, and then again when there's a plunge pool?"
Well, Ryan, I'm kind of like you. I often set and forget. I don't adjust them that much, but, you know, if I'm fishing deeper water and I'm not ticking bottom at all, you know, I've come from a shallower run where I had my indicator set fairly shallow, and I get to a deeper run, I'll try the shallow set up first because sometimes the fish are feeding in midwater or they're moving quite a bit for a fly, particularly during a hatch period. The fish will move a lot further for a nymph when they're actively feeding. But that doesn't work, then I will adjust my indicator to let the fly get deeper.
And then definitely in plunge pools, if you're, you know, fishing shallow pocket water and you come to a big plunge pool, it's definitely worth adjusting your indicator to get deeper. I would try it shallow first and then if you're not doing anything and you don't feel like you're getting close to the bottom, then adjust it. Here's an email from Adam. "As a relatively novice fly tier, it still takes me a few repetitions to get a pattern right. So, inevitably, I add to what I call my little fly shop of horrors. Flies too mangled and deformed that calling them crifles would be an outright lie. These amateurish attempts stay in a separate clear box and serve notice to all the insects in my house that buzz around to stay the hell away from my advice and materials."
"My question is this, what do you do with less than full quality flies? Are these rejects really the ones you give away to your friends or family? I know the bluegills probably wouldn't care if these mutants land in front of them, but what good comes from holding onto these Franken flies as I label them? Second question. My local stream is a small spring-fed clear creek, usually less than 25 feet wide. It's pretty overgrown with tall trees. So, the majority of the time, I have to wade and cast directly upstream. Generally, I use my 8.5-foot with a 3-weight rod, with a 4-weight line and 9-foot, 5X leader to throw small dry flies, 16 and smaller. Well, I'd love to say I have great roll cast. When I throw it out, I question if this is a subtle cast in presentation, my results are mixed, probably good enough for government work."
"Would a bow and arrow cast possibly be a better tactic for stealthy presentation with this lighter setup? How would a bow and arrow cast work with a dry dropper setup? Third question. I keep seeing large crayfish in this stream, but I never see small crayfish. I know there are crayfish patterns out there, but how do you fish them. As a streamer, going against the current? As a nymph, going with the current?" All right. So, your first question, Adam. You know, flies that don't look good to you might work just as well. You know, it takes me three or four tries to get a fly the way I wanted to. So, it's not just something that happens to novices. I've been tying flies for a long time, and my first few attempts are generally pretty lousy.
So, I do one or two things. Either I say, "All right, I'll fish it, see how it works." Or if it really looks bad, I'll cut the materials off the hook and use it over again. I don't give those rejects away to friends. If I give away a fly, I want it to be something that looks good. And, you know, really, it's for me that I want all the flies in my box to look good. It's not for the trout. I just wanna open that box and see a bunch of flies that look nice or look like they're supposed to. But do the fish care? Probably no,t. So, I wouldn't throw them out. If they're really bad cut the materials off, use the hook again. If they're not so bad, just fish them. Don't give them to friends though.
Regarding your second question, bow and arrow cast is not that terribly stealthy because it's hard to control how the fly lands and it's hard to get much distance with a bow and arrow cast. I only reserve the bow and arrow cast for absolutely last chance where I can't get any other kind of cast into a spot. You know, it's hard to set up. It doesn't always put the fly where I want it. And yeah, with a dry dropper, you can do it, but there's a pretty good chance things are gonna get bugged up and you might get a fly stuck in your finger. So, I generally use a bow and arrow cast with single fly, but I would try a roll cast first. I don't think your bow and arrow cast is gonna do that much more for you.
Regarding crayfish. If you're seeing large crayfish, there are small crayfish, you're just not seeing them. And often, they look like little swimming nymphs or minnows in the water, because they can swim pretty fast. So, you're probably seeing them and not realizing that they're small crayfish. And the answer to how to fish them is yes. You know, crayfish do dart around, they swim pretty fast. So, streamer type retrieve works well. For the smaller ones where they don't swim very fast and they often get dislodged and just drift with the current, I would fish them just like you would a big stonefly nymph for something. So, fish them both ways, fish them with a little bit of action or fish them dead drift. One or the other might work better on any particular day.
Here's an email from Mark. "For most of my fly fishing life, I've used one rod, a lovely carbon fiber affair from the glory days of the Fenwick Rod Company, a gift from my wife. Last year I succumbed to the craze for retro fiberglass rods and bought a 3-weight from a boutique rod maker. Because most of my fishing is on small overgrown streams, because I've discovered a 7-foot rod seems to stay out of an awful lot of trouble, a full-size rod would get into, and because I can leave this rod assembled in my car, I've done most of my fishing for the past year with fiberglass rod. Recently, I went on to the aforementioned trip to larger rivers and went back to the carbon rod. The other guys on the trip like to have lots of rods rigged differently rather than change setups on a rod to speed changes in technique.
So, my rod just sort of went into the pool of equipment. I'll tell you this to explain that I used a half dozen carbon rods on the trip from different makers and eras. First of all, I can't get over the Clearwater rod. I'm a Maiden USA guy, but that thing has me wobbling a little, what a stunner from the very first cast. But that's another topic. What I seem to notice after a year with my fiberglass rod was that once a carbon rod is well loaded up, it kind of stabilizes and stops transmitting a lot of detail back to the grip. In other words, a person could have a fighting salmon on the rod and feel mostly just steady pressure, even though the fish was pretty busy. When it leaped in threshed, there would be some detailed feedback, but mostly it just felt heavy."
"Maybe this is a good thing, though. I personally found it less informative, such as I confused big hits with snags more often. And also just a matter of preference, less exciting. My temptation was to attribute this to the difference in material and the lay person's understanding that a fiberglass blank reacts all the way down, not the same way as carbon. So, the blank near the handle was less dynamic on the carbon rod. I wonder if you agree or if you'd say it was my imagination, or just down to the particular rods or particular fish or water flow. I'm not asking for a judgment about what's better, just whether what I thought I was feeling is real because I might consider it when choosing the material of a rod to buy in the future."
Well, Mark, I don't totally agree with you. I think that one thing about fiberglass is that it has a lot more mass than a graphite rod, and it's a slower material, and doesn't recover as quickly. So, a lot of that feedback you're feeling is kind of the rod wiggling after you deliver the line, the shocks of a loop unfurling and the rod coming to a stop. Fiberglass rod is gonna wiggle a bit more than a graphite rod because it's less stiff and it doesn't recover as quickly. As far as feeling a fish fighting, I think that you can feel the sensation of a fish fighting just as well with a graphite rod as a fiberglass rod. And it may have been partly due to the length of the rod you were using, but, you know, carbon fiber rods or graphite rods are known to be quite sensitive, and you should be able to feel just as much in a carbon fiber rod or a graphite rod.
So, that's just my perception of the thing. And yes, you'll often feel a fish more down into the grip of a fiberglass rod when you're fighting it because they bend more. They're not as stiff, and they bend more down toward the butt. So, you are gonna feel a little bit more there. But as far as being sensitive and sensing the vibrations of a fish, I don't think you're gonna get any more feedback from a fiberglass than you would from a graphite. Here's an email from Nick. "Two questions. A favorite driftless stream harbors, lots of brown trout and lots of creek chubs. So many of the latter this past summer that I'm wondering whether they are a competitive threat to the trout in this stream. I know that browns are hardier, more aggressive than other trout, and they can better withstand some of the warmer water temperatures that driftless experienced in this past summer's drought."
"But on one outing in particular, it was as though all the trout had left the stream to the chubs. The chubs were on the bite while next to no trout were apparent. I'd love to know from you or one of your experts, what gives here? Is this a symbiotic relationship and a competitive one where carnivore, alpha browns chow down on chubs, but the chubs elbow juvenile trout away from the table, especially in periods of warmer water temps? Second, parachute flies, mine occasionally suffer a canting of the wing post after a few trout have mauled them. Is this just a happy casualty situation or is there a better technique for tying them that will enhance their durability and keep that wing at 90 degrees? Should I just expect this to happen, realign the wing periodically and, or tie more and consider my parachutes as John Gierach says, like ammo?"
"Also a shout out for the lightweight weighters. So, glad you all made so many, they're tremendous. I bought a pair in July and they're great, light and tough and very comfortable, especially in warmer months given their pant's length convertibility." So, Nick, you know, creek chubs and brown trout have coexisted for a long time since brown trout have been introduced. They feed in slightly different ways, but they do feed on the same bugs. You know, generally, food is not a limiting factor in a trout stream. It's generally places where the fish live and rest when they're not feeding and for protection. And creek chubs tend to go in slower, a little bit deeper water than trout. So, I don't think there's much competition there.
The one thing is that if you have creek chubs and brown trout, you will definitely have bigger brown trout because brown trout really do like to chow down on creek chubs. They're soft and they're relatively easy to capture. So, you know, a small creek chub or even a large creek chub is great food for brown trout. So, whether they compete with young trout, I'm not sure, but I don't think so. I think that you're probably finding a lot of creek chubs in water that's a little bit slower and warmer and the trout just may have moved somewhere else in the stream where the water's a little cooler or maybe a little faster, leaving the creek chubs to themselves in some of those slower, deeper pools.
Regarding parachutes. Yeah. I mean, you don't wanna do much to try to stiffen a parachute post because if you do, the fly's gonna spin and twist your tippet. And so, a little drop of head cement at the base of the parachute, right where you attach the hackle and let some thin head cement seep down into the hackle and into the post is probably all you can do. The one thing you wanna be sure is that you have a good solid, tight base underneath that wing. So, you know, before you set your parachute wing, before you tie it in, make sure that you're wrapping thread and, or dubbing tightly on the hook so that it doesn't slip off to one side or the other. So, just make sure everything's tight, put a drop ahead cement just at the base. And if they cant off to one side, like you said, you can just put them back into position.
Kevin: Hey, Tom, Kevin from Idaho. I thought I would send along a tip that I found helpful when I was a beginner fly angler, and then made an observation yesterday when I was out fishing some new locations for me. I had a personal plan this year, maybe a New Year's resolution to fish new waters. And I'm currently doing that after about a six-month hiatus from fishing due to some little cancer issues. But anyways, my observation is that as fly anglers, we must be the most optimistic people. Maybe it's like golfers too, and maybe it's like a lot of other sports, but we wake up each day thinking that today's gonna be the day when you catch that big fish or personal best or some new species. I had a good day yesterday, but I woke up thinking today would be better. And that's probably a bad assumption, but anyways, it's just a little observation.
My tip for new fly anglers is, when you're trying to determine where fish like to lie and rest and, you know, we all can watch the videos from yourself and read all the articles and stuff about, you know, foam is home and everything else. But if you can find a bridge that's over a river or a creek that has clear water, you can see the fish and you can see the fish, take a look and see where they're hanging out. It gives you kind of a visual perspective as opposed to someone saying, you know, in front of the rock, to the side of the rocks here or there. When you can actually see it, I think it makes it a little easier. And maybe that'll help somebody. Anyways, hope you're well. Have a good day. Bye-bye.
Tom: Well, Kevin, that's a great observation and a great tip. You know, the more observant and optimistic someone is, probably the better angler they're gonna be. Because If you're not optimistic, you're gonna give up and say, "Oh, it'll never work." Whereas if you're optimistic, you're gonna keep trying and you're gonna know you're gonna catch a fish eventually. So, confidence is a lot. And that tip you have, yeah, definitely, looking from a bridge, you know, you wanna kind of peek over the side of the bridge. It's interesting and I've noticed something that, you know, tractor trailers can drive back and forth, trucks and cars and great big tractor trailers can drive back and forth on a bridge and not spook the trout.
Yet, if you peak over the edge of the bridge, it'll spook a trout, often spook a trout because they're just not used to seeing that head peeking over the side of the bridge and not moving like the cars are. So, be very careful when you're observing trout from a bridge that you haven't already spooked them. Look from the side or peek your head over very slowly and carefully, otherwise, the fish may spook and that may not be the places that they're feeding in, that may be the places that they're hiding in. So, just a little caution in that tip. Here's an email from Aaron. "I dropped into an Orvis store recently just to kill some time while my wife was in an appointment nearby. I ended up casting the Recon H3D, H3 Blackout, all in the 8-weight."
"After just a few minutes of casting, I started to figure out the timing and feel for each rod. I quickly discovered that it was much easier to double haul and shoot line with these rods than any of the rods I currently own. Right now, I have two entry level outfits and a four and 6-weight that are advertised as medium and fast action respectively, as well as a decent 3-weight, 7-foot fiberglass rod that the manufacturer describes as slow action. The Recon and H3D are fast action rods. And the guy from the store that was helping me said that the Blackout is almost an extra fast action. Are these rods easier to double haul and shoot line because of the faster action than my current rods? Does it have to do with the power of the Orvis rods? Or is it simply the difference between a premium rod and my current lower level rods?"
So, let's sort this out a little bit, Aaron. First of all, those other rods that you have, that you've been trying to practice double hauling with are light line rods. And it is much more difficult to try to double haul with a three or a 4-weight line than it is with a seven or an 8-weight line. You just have more mass because that pullback, when you drift your hand back in between the two hauls, a light line often won't pull the line back through the guides. When you double haul, it just doesn't have enough mass to do it, particularly if you have a little wind behind you. So, that is one reason that those rods were easier for you to double haul. The other I think important thing is that it is gonna be easier to cast a better rod.
You know, the better rods are not only for experts, you know, a Helios 3 or a Blackout, they're gonna be easier to cast for everyone, and even someone with very little casting experience, and as well as experienced casters. So, they're just gonna cast easier. An essential part of the double haul is that you have a good standard cast first. You can't take a double haul and make a good cast with bad casting form. It's not gonna do anything except make a bad double haul. So, I think that maybe those Orvis rods were a little bit easier for you to cast, so you had a better casting stroke, and that's why it was easier to double haul. And the other reason is that you were, you're trying it with a heavier weight rod. So, those are the two reasons that probably worked out better for you.
Here's an email from Julian from Calgary. "I've been fly fishing for four years now, primarily in southern Alberta, targeting trout. Then last year, inspired by Haig-Brown's Fisherman's Seasons imagery, and prose, I decided to try my luck on the Campbell targeting coho. Although having grown up there, I never had much interest in fishing until now. I was there a few days last fall, and after the first day, I was having more success and important reminders to check my knots. However, I was unable to bring any coho to hand. There were a few good hard fights into the backing, but most ended up breaking off. The section I had success with is large pocket water adjacent to fast-moving water. The reaction of having the fish dart off into the faster water and downstream did cause a couple of break offs along with the fish going well downstream."
"What do I need to keep in mind fighting larger fish and faster moving water, tip up or tip down? How fast do I need to chase down the river if it runs downstream? And what if I can't? Also, I was using a triple surgeon's loop to complete loop-to-loop to my polyleader and noticed the line would break at the base of the surgeon's end loop. Is this the wrong knot? Is the use of fluoro causing the knot to cut the line? I keep thinking about these questions, and having booked a return trip this fall, I hope to change my luck." Well, Julian, first of all, unfortunately, that's a story with big fish and fast water, is, you're gonna lose a lot of them. And the fact that you didn't land any could have been just luck of the draw.
They jump, they run hard, they run downstream. All of those things are, you know, putting the odds in the fish's favor. The thing I would make sure is certainly don't need a light tippet. You didn't say what size tippet you were fishing. But you don't need a light tippet for coho. So somewhere around 16, 20-pound brake strength fluorocarbon is what I would use for coho. Because you're swinging flies and, you know, you don't need to worry about getting a natural drift like you would with a dry flyer nymph. So, make sure that you use heavier tippet. Make sure that you test all of your knots before you introduce them to the stream.
That triple surgeon's loop should have been strong enough to hold to the polyleader. Again, if it broke at the... It's almost always gonna break at the knot. So, if it's gonna break somewhere, it usually breaks at the knot because all knots do reduce the break strength of tippets somewhat. So, I think a triple surgeon's loop is okay. I don't think it was the fluoro causing the knot to cut the line. The one thing you might try, and this is not necessarily easy, but you got some time to practice it before you go on your next trip, if you're worried about that not breaking, the one thing you wanna do is to take the tippet that you're gonna put on your polyleader and tie a Bimini twist into the loop. And that what that does is gives you a double piece of line, and it gives you a little shock absorption. That Bimini twist will stretch a little bit when it's under stress.
Not an easy not to tie, gonna take some practice. I do this with my sinking lines. I tie a Bimini twist in it, and then the end that's doubled over...so, I have two strands. I tie either a surgeon's loop or a perfection knot into that doubled-over strand. And the Bimini twist supposedly is the only 100% knot. It's a knot, but it doubles over the line, and it won't break at the Bimini twist. And then when you tie your surgeon's loop, you've actually got two pieces of line to tie the loop instead of just a single piece. So, that's gonna give you a little bit more strength and a little bit more resilience against the knot breaking. So, that's the only thing I can recommend. If you're using light tippet, that's probably the problem. If you weren't using light tippet, then try that Bimini twist and see how that works for you.
Here's an email from Brian from Southern California. "I'm an accomplished conventional angler, and recently took up fly fishing for trout in heavily wooded and overgrown small stream. I've done okay with my only fly outfit, a 7-foot, 4-weight, fishing dry flies when the conditions allow. But I wanna expand my offerings to include traditional and Euro-style nymphs, small streamers, worm, egg patterns, etc., catch fish when they aren't rising and in fall and winter. I don't wanna buy a new rod and reel until I figure out what style of fishing suits me best. So, how can I set up my current rod for these different techniques? Is it really as simple as taking a leader recipe and downsizing it? Secondly, I often find trout holding directly under small waterfalls hidden by the white water. What are the best techniques to present a fly to those fish?"
Now, Brian, yeah, you can absolutely use that 7-foot, 4-weight for nymphs, for small streamers, Euro nymphs, eggs, whatever. And you may not even have to change your leader. You know, the same leader that you use for dry-fly fishing should work out quite well. You didn't say exactly what leader you use, but you know, probably a 9-foot 4X or 5X, and maybe a 2X for the streamers. But nymphs and egg patterns, 4X or 5X. And you shouldn't have to change much. You're gonna have to obviously change your approach, but that rod will work just fine for all of those different flies. Regarding fish holding under small waterfalls, two things.
One is that the fish that are holding under small waterfalls are often there because they got spooked because they were feeding somewhere else in the pool. They typically feed in other parts of a pool and dart under the waterfall when they get scared. So, they might have been spooked and that's why they were there. But that being said, sometimes they can be caught or sometimes they are feeding there. The best things I have found are to either use a dry dropper or indicator rig with a heavy nymph because you gotta get it down quickly at the base of the waterfall. And the other technique is to use a floating line and a fairly...maybe a small, heavily weighted streamer and plunk that right down the base of the waterfalls and strip it back to you.
Generally gonna have to fish it upstream, but that's fine. And if you don't have any heavily weighted streamers, you can pinch a split shot at the head of a unweighted or lightly weighted streamer to get it down. So, those are two techniques that I tend to use in those waterfall pools. Here's an email from Timo. "I listened to your podcast yesterday. I'm shocked when I heard about the customer's experience in Estonia. Would it be possible for you to share Michael's email contact from Germany who was here in Estonia? Why do I ask? I'm a member of the board of the Estonian Fishing Guides Association, and such service provision by a fishing guide is completely unacceptable. It spoils Estonia's reputation as a fishing destination and can label all Estonian guides. Therefore, it would be necessary to find out who the guide was so the situation does not happen again."
Timo, I didn't share the customer's email with you because, you know, I consider those privilege and confidential, people that email me. I hadn't gotten permission, so I'm not gonna share his email, but I did wanna read your email just so people know that this was probably an anomaly and that they certainly should not taint all Estonian fishing guides by this one gentleman's experience. You can have a bad fishing guide anywhere, and no one should say, "Oh, all guides in Estonia are bad because this one guy was so." You can have a bad apple anywhere. So, I just wanted to read your letter here so that people know that they shouldn't make those kind of judgements.
Daniel: Hi Tom, this is Daniel in Lexington, Kentucky. I'm originally from Idaho, but ever since coming to Kentucky, I've fallen in love with fishing for smallmouth bass. I think they're great fish. They fight hard. The takes are fun to watch. They're certainly not easy. I've spent plenty of time on the water trying to figure them out. And I just wanted to know if there's any sort of national group comparable to Trout Unlimited that focuses on small smallmouth conservation and research. I know that Orvis is a big partner and works hard to conserve and steward the resources that we all enjoy. And I just wanted to know if there was anyone out there doing that work for smallmouth. Thanks very much, and look forward to learning what you know.
Tom: Daniel, there. There isn't a national organization that deals with smallmouths, particularly deals with smallmouths. I think smallmouth bass are a pretty resilient species. In fact, they're invasive in a lot of places and it's tough to get them out of there. So, there isn't a national group that concentrates on smallmouth, because again, they don't need a lot of help. Where they occur, you know, with decent regulations, they're gonna thrive. But, you know, there are instances where smallmouth rivers are threatened by things like logging or mines, mines put in the wrong place or logging done in the wrong manner. And often, those issues are addressed by local organizations or by organizations like American Rivers that, you know, looks at all kinds of rivers, not just trout rivers.
So, no, there isn't one. One time there was one, but it kind of fell apart, and I'm not sure exactly the reasons why, but it didn't last very long. So, there isn't one, and not sure if we need one. But smallmouth are great fish. Luckily, they're quite able to survive on their own as long as we don't mess up their habitat too badly. All right. That is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to George about some really interesting stuff he's been doing.
Well, my guest today is the great George Daniel. George is one of the, I think one of the finest people in fly fishing. He's a real gentleman. He's a great educator, a fun person to be on the water with. He's a very valuable Orvis field tester. We use George for a lot of different testing, a lot of different products. And George, we are just talking, you are now a full-time professor of fly fishing at Penn State. Tell us about that.
George: Yeah. It's been a great time getting here at Penn State, but, you know, Penn State has been teaching fly fishing since the '30s. And we had the first credited fly fishing course in '47, taught by George Harvey. And then also, obviously, my mentor, Joe Humphreys, taught it for a number of years. And we've had some other instructors, but I was fortunate enough, they created a full-time directorship. So, I am teaching three different classes, but a total of seven sections along with some other responsibilities. But they actually pay someone a full-time salary at a good university to teach fly fishing skills. And it's a job I've always wanted since I was about 14, so it's kind of a dream come true for me.
Tom: Are there any openings for assistant instructors?
George: Well, sometimes, Tom, I think I want your job. Maybe we could switch roles sometimes.
Tom: I'd love that. Yeah, I'd love that, although I kinda like my job too. Talking to people like you every week is a pretty cool way to make a living. And you are also, you're still guiding, right? And you're still writing and you're still, you know, doing seminars for clubs and things like that. You are one busy guy.
George: Yeah. I still do most of my lessons. I do more than I need to, but I do a good number of lessons throughout the spring and summer on the weekends, then during the summers when I'm off. And then I've been writing some articles for "Fly Fisherman," "Catch" and "Hatch Magazine." And then also just have a new book that will be coming out here, or probably is out currently, it's called "The Fly Fishing Evolution." So, that's been kind of the culmination of the last three years of my fishing experience, just the way I look at and have adapted over the last handful of years. So, it's great. It keeps me busy. If I'm working too much, it's my own fault, but I just feel very fortunate to be given these opportunities to teach and kind of be in the public spotlight from time to time.
Tom: And I feel bad. I haven't seen your new book. When did it come out?
George: It's not officially out until November.
Tom: Oh, okay.
George: But I just got some copies. So, there are some distributors that are gonna start carrying them here shortly.
Tom: Is it with Stackpole?
George: It is, yes.
Tom: Okay. Good. Well, they're my publisher too for a number of books, so I can probably get a copy somehow.
George: We'll get you a copy.
Tom: Okay. I can't wait to see it. So, I thought a couple of things we talk about today, we haven't done a podcast in a while. One is the idea of 10-foot rods as being kind of underrated rod that's very useful. And then I'd just like to chat about what you've learned, you know, in the past few years, because you're a person who's constantly evolving. You don't stick with one technique. You're always pushing the boundaries and experimenting with new things, which I think is so cool instead of being stuck in your, you know, Euro nymphing rod. Not rod, but I mean, you know, there's a lot of people that are Euro nymphing experts, but they don't branch out and they don't do other things.
George: That's correct.
Tom: And you like to really, you like to really mix it up, which I think is the smartest thing to do if you're fly fishing because not all methods work all the time. So, let's talk about 10-foot rods, first of all.
George: Sure. Yeah. I mean, it's one of the... You know, when I started fishing with Mr. Humphreys, and this was back in the mid-90s when he started taking me under his wing, there weren't really any 10-foot rods available at that time. But one of the things that was most impressing to me watching him fish, even on small mountain streams, he was almost always using a longer rod. I mean, even in the tightest quarters, when I watched him fish, like little tunnels of Rhododendron, I mean, just places where most anglers would say like, you would need like a 4-foot rod, joe was fishing 8, 8.5-foot rods.
And basically, the long story short of it is, you know, the first time I started fishing with Joe, we did a small mountain stream, and I showed up and I had like a little five-foot fly rod because, you know, you fish tiny short rods in small streams. And his first comment to me was, "Well, you obviously have no idea how to cast in small streams." And I said, "Well, I guess I don't." And that's the thing I love about Joe. He's pretty blunt and to the point. It took him until like age 91, 92 to start mellowing out a little bit. The idea is that it's about loop control. You know, essentially, even on small streams, anywhere, if you have even cover, you know, tree branches and so forth over your head, if you can take your rod and not touch surrounding branches, you have plenty of room to use a longer rod.
As long as you know how, without getting into the physics of the casting, but longer rods, I just simply enjoy fishing longer rods. Some people like short rods, I like longer rods. I think they give you better leverage when you're casting, better line leader control. Overall, presentation-wise, they're fantastic. So, rarely do I go below a 10-foot rod, and a lot of times, I'm using an 11-foot rod, especially when I'm fishing out West. So, definitely longer rods. And if you have issues casting and getting stuck in tree branches, I'm just trying to be blunt here and just say that chances are, it's not the length of the rod, it's just the way you're casting in the loop that's coming off the rod tip is the problem, not the length of the rod.
Tom: Yeah. You know, you talk to people all the time that, you know, they wanna fish small streams, they want to get a short rod, and they're just hindering themselves. It offers no advantage, really, other than their poor casting tools and poor line-controlled tools.
George: Correct. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, especially with 10-foot rods, you're talking about like beginners. I think when I grew up, and I'm not sure how it was when you were growing up because you're like just a few years older than I am, but when I was taught to cast and fish, my old man thought it was really good because I was short and small at the time, at age six, that, you know, "He's young, he's small, he's short, you need to give him a shorter rod so he can handle." But I think that when you have someone that is already short, has short levers as arms, I think the worst thing you can do is also give him a short extension [inaudible 00:49:48].
So, for my kids, one of the things I think I did well on is teaching them how to use 10-foot rods growing up because it kind of helps them overcome their height issues and their length issues at that time.
Tom: And they only weigh a couple of ounces. It's not like you're hindering a kid by giving him a 10-foot rod.
George: Exactly. And especially the way rods are made today, and in many cases, you could just treat a single-hand rod like I've seen Simon Gawesworth and so many other people, just treat it like a two-hand rod. So, if you have issues trying to cast, just use your other hand to help hold onto the reel and use that as a lever when you're casting. So, longer rods, as you're saying, are just so much more advantageous to control and just presentation overall.
Tom: Okay. So, let's go through the kind of the, you know, 10-foot, 3, 10-foot, 4, 10-foot, 5, and where people would use those rods, because I get this question all the time, "I bought a 10, say 10-foot, 3-weight Euro rod, can I fish a dry fly with it?" I get that all the time.
George: Yeah. I mean, it's obviously personal preference, but my 10-foot and 3, my 10-foot and my 11-foot, 3-weight rods, I use for 95% of my fishing com. As you know, and anyone else that has handled these rods, what's cool about these more modern nymphing rods, and they call them nymphing rods, but I think that's misleading because like you're saying that people say, "Well, it's a nymphing rod." You can do anything else with it. You can do small streamers, you can do dry flies. And I think quite honestly, the Euro rods that have a softer tip are actually probably one of the best trout casting rods.
Personally, I think one of the biggest mishaps that the industry did was...you know, I remember in the late '90s, early 2000s when I was getting into fly casting competitions, everyone like Sage and some of these other companies were coming out with like the TCR or TCX, like the technical casting rods that were like broomsticks and everyone was going to fast-action fly rods. Fast-action fly rods are great when you have a heavy line or when you have like 60, 70-feet of actual fly line outside the rod tip to help load the rod. But most of your trout fishing is done within 15, 20-feet, at least mine is.
As long as you take the time to get in position, you don't need to have these longer casts. And that's one of the things I try to teach at Penn State. Like, as long as you take your time, you can get remarkably close to these fish. And if you try to make a 15-foot cast with a little bit of line and a lot of liter with a very fast-action fly rod, it's gonna be very difficult to cast because that rod is not properly loading. So, the Euro rods with that softer tip, they're perfect for nymphing dry flies, but they load at such short range. So, from my standpoint, they're fantastic because it just reduces the amount of fatigue my hand has encountered when compared to fishing the fast reduction flat rods.
So, there's that. But also, to answer your other part of the question was, personally, I use a 3-weight. 3-weights are just fantastic. And like off my reel, I have a 3-weight double taper fly line. I'm still an old-school guy, I just love the performance and roll-casting capabilities of a double taper, but I have that on my reel. And then if I wanna throw drive flies, indicator rigs, I'll run that up through the guides and fix it. If I'm using a mono system, I'll basically reel all that in and attach a really long mono system. So, nothing but monos coming out to the guides. But basically, my 10-foot and my 11-foot, 3-weight rods I use, I mean, for every single thing, East, West.
So, one of the things I just did, I came out with just a short little YouTube video talking about mono rigs, but like you're saying, I kind of like to push the limits, because people within, you know, I call it fan mail. I'm sure you get a little of this once in a while, but people will try to call you out and say, "You can't play big fish. You can't do this on a 3-weight rod. These rods have a soft tip, but most of them have a pretty stout butt section. So, in the last couple weeks, I don't recommend this, but I just was trying to just...this is some new rods that, you know, Orvis may be coming out with here in the coming months that's a 3-weight, but I decided to do some small jig streamer fishing on some of my local rivers.
And in the last two weeks, I've caught two muskies between 27, 28 inches. It was just luck that I hooked them the right way. I've landed a 15-pound catfish and a number of bass between 19 and 20. And I have it all on video doc. I documented all it with video and I put some short clips so I didn't spot-burn any of my locations, but I caught some remarkably large fish on that 3-weight. And if you compare that to trout, which in my opinion, trout are kind of sissies when it comes to the push pole weight versus like a smallmouth or like a catfish. I feel like I can pretty much handle most normal trout conditions with a 3-weight fly rod. And, you know, I'm not trying to kill Orvis rod sails, but my 3-weight has pretty much become like my bread and butter. I just absolutely love it.
Tom: Now, what do you do if you have, let's say you have a wind, a good, you know, 15, 20-mile-an-hour wind and you need to reach out to 40 feet or so. Do you still use that rod?
George: I mean, definitely. I mean, you still, as long as you have decent casting principles, you do have to create some speed and a little bit more force and power with your cast, but you can do that. And, you know, there was a website I used to follow a lot and it was called Sexyloops. I'm not sure if they're still out there, but one of the tests... And maybe I could be wrong, but Paul, I think was one of his names, but he actually did... You know, this guy was a math nerd, but it was kind of geeky and I liked it, but I think one of the conclusions was, it wasn't a 3-weight, but a 4-weight was like technically one of the best casting rods because it provides the perfect balance between mass and also slenderness when you're trying to cut into a wind.
So, when people say you need an 8 or a 9-weight to cast in the wind, maybe for some situations, but usually, I feel very confident using a 3-weight and sometimes maybe a 4-weight for even the most incredible winds that I may encounter out West. So, I don't really change anything other than just increasing line speed, use a little bit more, you know, haul on my cast, but I feel very confident using a 3-weight for most casting situations.
Tom: Okay. How big of a streamer will you fish on that, or should someone of average casting ability, how big of a streamer would you put on that 3-weight?
George: That's a great question. Normally, my flies are often like 3 inches at the most. So, I'm not throwing big flies. And more importantly, it's about the amount of weight too that you're throwing. I mean, I don't throw really super heavy tungsten cone heads or super heavy tungsten jigs, but, you know, anything medium weight and less in like 3-inches or less, I have absolutely no issues casting.
Tom: Okay. Now, what about stepping up to a 10-foot, 4-weight, where would you use that? And, you know, where would it be beneficial and where would it be a hindrance if you go to a 10-foot, 4-weight?
George: So, the rods I choose, I'm not trying to carry multiple rods with me, so I'm trying to find a rod and I modify my systems around like one rod. So, I choose the 3-weight because still, I mean, I throw a lot of dry flies. I still do a lot of jig streamer fishing, but I would still say that probably well over 60%, maybe 70% of my fishing is still like Euro nymphing. So, I pick the lighter of the three. So, I'll use a 3-weight because a 3-weight is just easier casting, lighter weight rigs. because I'm not casting like really heavy stonefly patterns or the traditional really heavy check-nymphing patterns. The stuff I'm doing these days, my mono rigs and my Euro rigs are incredibly thin, I'm using really small flies, light beads, and a 3-weight rod does a far better job handling that.
The times where I would be going to more of a 4-weight is, one, is if I knew I was gonna be dealing with a significant wind most of the day. If I was gonna be casting more like wind-resistant dry flies, like if I'm throwing, you know, big Hendrickson or even like big Green Drake patterns or like Chubby Chernobyl's, doing like a dry dropper, something like that, I would probably be using more of a 4-weight four. But as soon as you go to a 4-weight, in my experience, there's a huge difference in the performance and sensitivity when you're trying to detect strikes with nymphing.
So, pretty much anytime I'm nymphing or plan on nymphing, I stick with a 3-weight. And if I plan on doing other things more, then I'll drop up or I'll go up 1 line size and do the 4-weight.
Tom: Okay. How is Euro nymphing or tight line, contact nymphing with a 4 or even a 5-weight? Can people do it?
George: Absolutely.
Tom: What do you lose?
George: Yeah. You can do anything. But basically, it's just when you're a fishing lighter systems. And I think one of the things that you're finding with like the USU team, a lot of the comp anglers, and just like a lot of your great anglers that I know, it seems like, we've talked about this before, but thin for the wind. But basically, you're going thinner in diameter with your monofilament or your line, you're using lighter-weight flies. So, you just need a rod that can cast that a lot easier. And if you're trying to cast long leaders, light fly on a very stout, you know, 10-foot, 4-weight, it's really tough to get that rod tip to load.
And most of the things I've realized when it comes to doing the lessons and so forth, when people have issues with their casting, sometimes we have to work on some casting principles, and that's something that I enjoy doing. But a lot of the times, it is just their system, and that is the line, mono system or the flies, or a combination of all of them, it's just too light to accurately or properly load the rod. So, it's about casting most of the time.
Tom: Okay. Not so much strike detection, more casting gang out there.
George: Yeah. I mean, you definitely have a little better strike detection with a lighter rod, but usually, it's the castability of the system.
Tom: Okay. So, I assume you probably don't use indicators too much, a lot of people have gone to dry dropper for that kind of fishing, but if you were a fishing indicator, a big indicator, you'd probably use the 4-weight as well, right?
George: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Tom: Yeah. All right. And how about from a boat? Do you find any disadvantage with a longer rod, like if you're fishing in a drift boat with a guide?
George: No. No. No. I know some guides wanna fish shorter rods, but no. Whether you're on a stream or on a river, you still have to manage that line. You have to reach over currents, you have to mend, and so forth. And I still feel whether you're floating or when you're waiting, a longer rod is going to give you a far better casting and control. And more importantly, it's going to reduce a little of the chance of... You're gonna be able to hold that back cast a little higher and reduce the chance of you hitting your guide in the head with a cone head streamer. So, definitely, I recommend using as long as a rod as possible even when you're floating.
Tom: Yeah, or hitting the anchor rope. I usually sit in the back and I'm always hitting the anchor rope. And my back says, "You should be nowhere near that anchor rope." But it does. All right, George, talk a little bit about, you know, new things you've learned and new things you're doing these days. You mentioned very light leaders and lighter Euro-type contact nymphing flies. Tell us about what you've been doing there.
George: So, I've been doing a bunch of things and nymphing dry flies and streamers, but when it comes to nymphing, you know, where I'm fishing smaller streams, typically smaller fish than what people out West may normally catch, but I'm going like ultra-thin. So, basically, I'm running all mono that is maybe 35 to 40 feet. So, I'm not using fly lines, a Euro line, or any of that. I'm just running straight mono off my reel. And this stuff is like 4X, 5X to like a 6X tippet. I'm going ultra-thin. And one of the reasons I'm doing that is, one, without getting into too much of the geeky details, is just the thinner you go is gonna give you a couple of advantages and several disadvantages. Some of the major advantages is, one, it really allows you to fish a fraction of the weight.
And what I mean by that is that anytime you have line going up the guides and then out through the rod tip, if there's mass, and I'm talking even monofilament that is like classified as 12, 15, 17 pounds, 20 pounds, anytime you have thicker mass in the guides and outside the rod tip, you're going to get a hinge effect and it's gonna start acting as a counterweight. What I've been finding is I can fish like single...and one of the things I've been doing lately is I've kind of gone away from fishing doubles and triples with my rigs. I know people will say that if you fish double two flies, it's gonna double your chances. And that may be true, but if you fish two flies, it's definitely going to quadruple your chances of getting tangled.
Tom: Yeah. Good point.
George: So, I wanted to fish smaller flies and just one fly. And this alters in system just allows you to make cast and allows you to achieve depth without any additional weight because basically there's virtually no mass. And then the other thing is, you know, this is borderline spin fish and the way you're casting, because basically, and I'm not beating around the bush because it's basically the physics of this cast is you're using a weighted fly to basically pull a thin line to the target. And when you're fishing small flies, you know, like I say 18 or 20, with like a little micro tungsten beef, even though it's got a little...
If you try casting that fly with a liter that's constructed of like 17, 15, 20, you know, 12-pound tests monofilament, it's gonna be very difficult to cast because it's kind of a standoff. The fly has a mass, the leader has some mass, and they're sort of playing tug of war with each other as the cast is being made. But the moment you think that leader down and go taper less and just make a no-taper level diameter, the casting is so much easier. You can shoot distances, you can make really great cast. So, actually, it makes casting so much easier. And once the cast is set up, you're making your drift, that thinner mono is gonna have far less effect when wind comes into the factor.
Last is the sensitivity. And what I mean by that is, you know, I have pretty good nymph eyes. I've been doing tight line nymphing since I've been fishing with Joe, since I was 14 years old. I have a pretty good idea on what a fish is versus like a rock. But even when you're fishing 12-pounds, 15-pound test monofilament, the thicker the mono or the thicker your line or leader system, it simply acts as insulation. And when the fish strikes that line will just often will stop. And even for the most trained nymphing eyes, sometimes that short little pause, you just have this doubt like, "Well, is that a fish? Or maybe is that a rock?" And most of the time you're gonna set, but especially when you're working with beginners or people getting into this, people are like, "Ah, that looks like a bomb," because it wasn't very distinct.
The moment I started going to this ultralight system, you know, closer now to about two years in truth, is that when you work with people on the water, because of how light and sensitive this is, when a fish strikes, I mean, it makes a distinct jump. You'll see that, just that line, that sighter-like flex, it just shoots and it, there's like no guessing work. So, instead of me having to yell and say, "Set the hook," they see that and they just instinctively set the hook because it looks like a strike. So, really, the thinner monofilament takes all the guessing work out of it. It gives you confidence knowing when the fish strikes versus when it's stream-bottomed. So, hopefully, that makes sense.
Tom: It does make sense. Let's talk about exactly how you've rigged that. From the fly line down to the fly with... Let's say you're using a single fly and you're using this very light mono rig. How do you reel? How do you attach it to your fly line and then all the way down?
George: Sure. So, as I said, I use one rod, one reel for most of my stuff. I have a 3-weight double taper on my reel. The fly line, the 3-weight double taper only sees the light a day when I'm dry fly fishing or indicator fishing. Other than that, it's buried within the reel. But I keep the loop on my fly line. I know some people will tell you to cut the loops off, but usually, when I'm fishing a fly line, I'm either dry fly fishing or indicator fishing. And for me, I like keeping the loop on the line because one is, I know the cost of fly lines. Every time you start cutting back on the line, you're affecting the taper. But then two, from a flotation standpoint, I don't think people realize that a lot of times the loop on your fly line acts as a buoyancy. I mean, it helps keep your fly line floating.
And the moment you cut that tip off, no matter how many bubbles and all this technology you put into it, it's gonna be very difficult to try to keep a thin fly line afloat. So, I keep the tip on. So, off the tip of my fly line, I run about 35 to 40 feet. And the mono I use is called a Pierre Sempe. It's just a monofilament I get from Devin Olsen, the Tactical Fly Fisher. But it comes in different colors. I use the 0.014, which is like a 6-pound test, or the 0.016 millimeter, which is like 4.5, 5-pound test, but either/or. I run about 35 to 40 feet of that. And I just attach that using the clinch knot right to the tip of the fly line. And then I have about 35 to 40 feet.
Off that 40 feet, I will have a short section of tippet that is anywhere from like 3 to 5 feet, comprised of 5X or 6X. And that's it. And just recently, Scientific Anglers teamed up with an art marker company and they're repackaging, or they're just packaging them up as an indicator or sighter markers, but it's a marker that's been out for years for artists. But instead of using like a traditional sighter, basically, you're looking at the depth of the water. So, you have your 35 to 40 feet of mono, you have your 3 to 5 feet of, you know, 5X or 6X tippet. And then based on the water depth, you just take your marker and you just create a sighter within that tippet based on the depth. And that is it. So, you just hit your marker, you create your sighter.
And what's cool about these sighters is that you can turn like a 5X or 6X tippet into a sighter that's opaque, it's super bright and it's got virtually very little mass. And it's just incredible. So much easier to see and so much easier to use than a traditional indicator system. So, that's kind of the way I run with a single hook point fly. And then if I'm moving up and down water and I wanna adjust or change the height of my sighter, you can lead the marker on there. But if you're going to some deeper water, you need your sighter a little higher up on the tippet. You can just take isopropyl or alcohol cloth, like a lens cloth, and then just wipe the marker off, and then just reattach or just reapply the marker a little higher up.
So, I've been doing that now with these markers for about a year and a half. And Scientific Anglers just came out with these markers, I think maybe a month ago on the market. They're not perfect wax, you know, before there were like sighter markers or sighter wax markers, which just absolutely, I hate it because it looked like you just ran through a crayon factory because they were just such a mess. But these markers, they're not perfect, but they're really good for what they are. And I'm sure at some point, someone's going to, you know, modify them, make them maybe a little bit brighter, make them a little bit more fly fisher friendly. But that is it. And the thing I like about my system now is it doesn't matter if I'm fishing West, East, I mean, that's the only leader formula.
Before when I wrote my first book, I had like dozens and dozens of liter formulas and so forth. But what's nice about this, this is the one-liter formula I use for pretty much everything. The only thing that may change is the tip of diameter based on, you know, the size of the fish, maybe the size of the flies I'm fishing, and then just the height of the sighter. But other than that, that's all I use for most of my fishing and nymphing and fish jammers.
Tom: So, knots, you just clinch knot that 4X or 6 pound, whatever to your fly line?
George: Correct. And then just from the nylon, you know, the color nylons like that Pierre Sempe, to my fluorocarbon tippet, often do like a triple or quadruple. A lot of times I don't understand the dying process, but it seems like it really softens up the monofilament. And when you're trying to attach a soft monofilament, like a sighter or like the Pierre Sempe monofilament as your base, and then you're trying to use like a 6X, which is a very thin but also kind of fairly abrasive piece of fluorocarbon, if you just do like a two-turn surgeon, it has a tendency of kind of cutting through the softer mono. So, instead of just doing two turns, I'll often do like three or four turns surgeons not to connect the soft mono to my tippet. And I never have any issues with that.
Tom: What about tippet ring? You don't use tippet rings anymore?
George: With as light of the flies I'm using now, Tom, even with the lighter tippets, and, you know, tippet rings that are coming on the market because of how light my system and how light my flies are, that tipper rings acts as a hinge. There's a distinct hinge. So, if you're fishing really heavy flies, big stonefly patterns, and big mops and things of that nature, a tippet ring is not going to have a negative effect because there's enough pull on the flies to keep things nice and straight. But if you're fishing ultra-light nymphs, a tippet ring is with this system is definitely gonna act as a hinge. It's just gonna put you out of touch and just create more drag than you want.
Tom: I've seen people put perfection loops on the end of this light rig and boy, it works for them, but I have found that perfection loop is not very strong in very fine monofilament. And I would tend to go toward your method instead. You know, perfection loops are fine for leader butts, but I don't think they're strong enough to put a loop in a fine piece of monofilament. I don't know what you've found.
George: Yeah. I mean, I know a couple of really talented anglers that like that, but just through my own personal experience, I kind of went away from those micro-loops that they created and I just tied directly using the surgeon's knot. And plus, I think there's less issues of tangling.
Tom: Yeah. And they're hard to tie that small too, perfection loop.
George: Yeah. Maybe that's one of the reasons why I don't like doing them, they're pain in the ass to do.
Tom: So, you use a four-turn surgeon's knot sometimes?
George: Yeah. Anytime I'm going...like the sighters. Anytime you have like a really soft nylon and you're trying to connect soft nylon to a fluorocarbon tippet, I do a three or four turn. Because otherwise, it seems like you'll get a lot of cutting, like dings in your floor, in your tippet. So, you just basically what they call like a strangulation knot. So, instead of putting force into a smaller area, you expand over a larger area. It has in theory less effect cutting into the monofilament. It sounds good in theory at least, but it just seems to work better for me.
Tom: Yeah. Well, if it works, that's the most important thing, right? You've proven that it works and it's good. Probably a little hard to tighten. You have to be really careful about tightening that four-turn surgeons, I would imagine. So, with this method, tell us a little bit more about how you present the fly, because it is something different from what most people are doing these days.
George: Yeah. A couple of things too is kind of the preface that is, when you're fishing these ultra-thin mono systems... You know, I grew up with a Chest, one of those Richardson Chest Fly boxes, but with the monofilament rig, mono, as you know, mono, it's thin in nature. And if there's anything for monofilament to grab or hang on to, it's going to. So, one of the things I've done within the last two years is I've pretty much eliminated things dangling or hanging from my front area. Some of the fine folks at Orvis, in their R&D with their wire department, they create a nice little chest pack, a little larger than the typical chess pack that you find in the PRO Waders.
But essentially, I have, you know, a couple of fly boxes. My stool of tippet in any, like, small accessories in that little flip pocket. And then I basically flip it on the inside. So, when I'm fishing, my front side is clean, there's nothing hanging off my front side, because if you don't, if you're trying to use ultra-thin monofilament, and if you keep monofilament anywhere close to your body, you're gonna be grabbing stuff [crosstalk 01:16:58] with angling. So, I would highly recommend just if you're doing this, keep a clean front end before you go fishing. Otherwise, you're gonna get frustrated.
Tom: Okay. Now, you...
George: And then go ahead.
Tom: One question is, let's say you're dry fly fishing with your double taper line, 3-weight, and you want to go decide you wanna go nymphing. Do you carry a pre-made 30-foot section of this monofilament or do you just pull it off a spool?
George: No, I still use, and I still like the Orvis cartridge, the dry dropper cartridges, the yellow and blue cartridges. I mean, if you're handy and you wanna do something you can do something else. But the reason why I use like the longer cartridges, they're six inches in length. And some people will wind their entire rig around a spool of like old tippet and just use an old spool of tippet. I try and use that. But think about it like an arbor, like a small arbor reel, how long it takes you to kind of wrap, you know, a reel in line with a small arbor versus a larger arbor.
So, when I store, what I like about the cartridge is that it's 6 inches in length, but when I make one full wrap-around, that's 12 inches, that's 1 foot. So, basically, I can make 40 quick wraps and I can wind my entire rig in less than maybe a minute around that cartridge. And I can also pull it off in the same amount of time. If I try to undo it or put that onto a small spool, it's gonna, you know, triple the time. So, I like using those longer cartridges and I'll have things, you know, already pre-spooled and ready to go. So, I can just quickly if I want to use the Euro stuff, I already have that 35 to 40-foot section of that mono rig already on the cartridge. I can just, you know, pull the fly line out through the tips and I can just string it together and reel it all in and vice versa.
If I wanna store it, I can reel all that in, wrap it around, and then pull off a dry fly leader and just quickly attach that to my slide line tip. So, definitely have things pre-rigged. I just don't run off the spool or just build in the field.
Tom: Okay. So, that's the, what is it? The dry dropper rig fly box or whatever, the Orvis have.
George: Yeah.
Tom: Okay. I'll have to get one of those. I don't have one. You got me going, George. You got me thinking, "I'm gonna try this." I've seen this method used a couple of times recently, and I haven't had the nerve to go out and try it myself, but you got me thinking, I'm gonna give it a try.
George: It's a great technique. One of the things I wanna mention is there's a reason, we were talking about it before, and this is, you know, I don't wanna say an ethical dilemma I have in mind, but, you know, there's a reason why I don't teach Euro nymphing with my basic classes. I never even talk about Euro nymphing with my basic classes because one of the things, and I'm sure you find out and other people too is, Euro nymphing, I mean, it's incredibly effective, this mono system. I mean, it's sometimes just crazy how simple and effective it is.
But the problem is, it's almost like crack, that once you get hooked on it, you don't wanna do anything else. And my kids when they graduate, like a lot of these kids, you know, there's only a small percentage of trout water in the country and in the world. Most of the time where these kids move and where they fish, they're gonna be fishing for bass or salt water, like go on outside the trout realm. And what I don't want is I don't want to get them hooked on Euro nymphing and something that has zero application to what they may be seeing.
So, I don't talk about Euro nymphing in the first class because I want them to understand how to cast. One of the greatest pleasures in fly fishing is actually the art of fly cast. And I think that is kind of a lost art now with some of these youth kids and so forth that are coming up competing is these kids can catch lots of fish, but if they need to make a 40-foot reach cast to a drive fly eater, they can't do that.
Tom: Yeah. I've seen that.
George: That's a shame. So, I don't teach Euro nymphing to a lot of my beginners. I teach them the basic skills, and then I do talk a little bit about Euro in more of my advanced classes. But, you know, it's something that I think it's great, is an effective technique, but if you wanna enjoy this and be able to do all aspects, I think, like casting the dry fly to a fish is one of the most beautiful things you can witness, a fish coming up off the water and hitting your dry fly on the surface. I want them to get that experience. I want them experience all these things. And I feel like if I teach them Euro nymphing, then a lot of times they never do it. So, that's my two cents on the ethics of teaching Euro nymphing to complete beginners.
Tom: I like your style, George. I like your style. All right, George. Well, that's been some great stuff, very educational, and as always, very articulate as we would expect from a professor of fly fishing. Do you have an honorary doctorate with that?
George: No, no. Maybe that will be... I'm just happy to be here until they kick me out, though I feel like they'll catch out to what I'm doing.
Tom: That's my philosophy too. All right. George, well, it's always great talking to you. And I just wanna thank you for sharing this stuff. It's very cool.
George: No, thanks for having me, Tom. It's always a pleasure talking with you.
Tom: And I assume this is all in your new book too, and much, much more?
George: Yep. Always.
Tom: Good. All right. We'll be looking forward to seeing your new book.
George: All right. Thanks, Tom.
Tom: Okay, George. Good talking to you. Thanks.
George: You too.
Tom: Bye-bye.
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at