Tricks for Casting Big Flies, with Pete Kutzer
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast. This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer, and my guest this week is the star of stage and screen, the great Pete Kutzer, the man with millions of YouTube views on fly casting, and one of the finest fly [00:00:30.100] casting teachers in the world. And we did this one live in my podcast studio because Pete's local and a fishing buddy. So, anyway, I know that this will be a popular one. It's about casting big flies. And I get this question all the time, "I'm fine casting a size 14 parachute Adams, but then when I put on a big weighted nymph for a big streamer, I have trouble with my casting." Well, you know what? It's not going to [00:01:00.100] cast as well, but there are things you can do to help cast bigger flies when you decide to go from smaller, less air-resistant fly to a big weighted or air-resistant fly. And Pete's got some great tips on helping us adjust to those casting conditions.
And then a few more announcements. One is that there is an incredible raffle going on right now, [00:01:30.879] just started and it's through Captains For Clean Water, and it's the world's finest skiff raffle. This is your chance to win a Hell's Bay professional skiff with some incredible touches on this. It's got a multi-tone gray finish that matches the Helios rod finish, a custom cork pattern C-deck, four Orvis Helios fly rod and [00:02:00.200] reel combos, including U.S.-made Mirage reels. And then there's a bunch more Orvis gear, a boatload of YETI gear, and $1,000 Costa gift card. So, this is an incredible opportunity to win one of the finest prize packages ever. The tickets are 50 bucks, and you can sign up, or you can order those tickets at the Captains For Clean Water website. So, just put [00:02:30.379] in Captains For Clean Water in your search engine and their website will come up and it'll be right on the front page.
Captains For Clean Water is one of our best conservation partners. This is a grassroots organization that is really fighting hard to improve and maintain Florida's water quality in the Everglades, in Florida Bay, in the estuaries [00:03:00.340] on both coasts, and they've done some incredibly hard work. They're fleet-footed, they're tough, they're hardworking, and again, it's a grassroots organization that anyone who cares about saltwater fly fishing at all should join and support. Orvis supports them very strongly, and they're great partners.
All right, a couple other announcements. One is I noticed something on the website that [00:03:30.120] I didn't know was available. It's a 7-foot 2-piece bamboo rod for a 3-weight line. And, you know, I love fishing bamboo on small streams, and I've been fishing the 7-foot 4-weight for many years, the Orvis 7-foot 4-weight. But I felt that a 3-weight would be a little bit nicer. The trout are usually small, the flies aren't terribly big, and it's just a lot of fun. And [00:04:00.240] it's such a pleasure to fish a bamboo rod on small streams. It's an intimate setting. You're fishing with an organic material that was made by hand by basically one person, Shawn Brillon, except for the windings which are done by our experts in the winding department, but Shawn makes the whole rod himself, and it's truly a work of art. And I [00:04:30.180] think a 3-weight is the perfect line size for small streams.
Now, I know that there are people who use bamboo rods for much bigger things for bass and even for saltwater. And you can make powerful bamboo rods, but that's not what I like bamboo for. I like bamboo for small streams and delicate fishing with a slow line speed. Really helps with the delicacy. And so, I worked with Shawn to... [00:05:00.300] we kind of did it under the radar to develop this rod. But it's available now on the website and under bamboo rods on the Orvis website. They won't be delivered probably till October, but what a great Christmas gift for somebody that you really care about or yourself. So, check that out. I can wholeheartedly vouch for this rod. I even fish fairly big dries and dry dropper with a [00:05:30.199] nymph on this rod and it does deliver them pretty well. Of course, it excels at a single dry fly or a single nymph in really delicate situations, but it'll do the job in small streams no matter what you're throwing. So, great rod, lots of fun.
And the final announcement is I still have a couple spots open in my Three Rivers hosted trip September 28th to October 5th. This is at one of my favorite lodges in the world, Three Rivers Ranch [00:06:00.660] outside of Ashton, Idaho. We fish the Henry's Fork, the South Fork, various parts of the Henry's Fork from the Railroad Ranch down to the faster water. We fish some smaller streams. And the food there is incredible. They've had the same chef for 40 years. The guides are incredibly nice and knowledgeable, some of the best guides I've ever fished with and some of the nicest guides I've ever [00:06:30.060] fished with. So, this is the only hosted trip of mine that has any spaces left. I have four other trips coming up in 2024 and early 2025, and those are all filled. So, if you want to come fish with me, this is your last chance for the foreseeable future. And I love meeting podcast listeners, so I hope you can make this trip. All you need to do is go [00:07:00.199] onto the website...call Orvis Traveler, go onto the website. It's listed there under Idaho in the fly fishing trips.
All right, enough of the announcements. A lot this week, I apologize. Let's get on to the Fly Box where you ask me questions, I try to answer them. You can send me your questions at
So, Bob, I think January and February are late. In your part of the world, those fish could start spawning in late October and into November. November is a more likely month for brown [00:09:00.120] trout to be spawning. So, I would look in November. And they're not going to be in deep pools. Typically, redds are built at the tail out or the tail end of a pool in relatively shallow water where there's fine gravel, pea-sized gravel. Now, those fish may not be spawning in the main stem. When you get close to a dam, sometimes the oxygen is relatively low because it comes out of the bottom of a reservoir. [00:09:30.600] I think you want to look a little further downstream from the dam. It's quite possible that your brown trout are spawning in tributaries. So, if there are any tributary streams in the area, I would walk them in November and look for redds. But they should be fairly apparent. Sometimes they're a little bit difficult to spot, but look in tributaries, look in tails of pools in November, and I think you'll see [00:10:00.139] where those fish are spawning. It's a good idea to know where the redds are because you can try to protect those areas even more from development or siltation. And also, you'll know to stay away from those if you do fish this in the fall, give the fish a chance to spawn without being pestered.
Ben: Hey, Tom. This is Ben in Virginia, and I've got a question about how streams can heal themselves and kind [00:10:30.000] of return themselves back to a healthy balance after major events. And it's sort of a multi-part question, so I hope it's not too long or too complicated. And I'm going to use a stream local to me kind of as the example of what I mean. And I guess that's selfishly because I want to fish this stream, and so I'm curious about it. But this stream about a year and a half ago had a pretty major project completed where they returned about a half mile of the stream bed back to where it used to flow [00:11:00.460] decades and decades before. So, they actually diverted the flow of water a couple hundred yards in a different direction to return the flow back to where it used to. And they used manpower and heavy machinery to do all this work. They put in really good structure, and they firmed up the banks, and they made it more narrow so it flows really well, all this to improve the stream quality.
[00:11:30.559] But with all that work being done, I'm sure there's now a complete new stream bed. And so, the question is, when it comes to the insects that we're hatching, and the crayfish, and the sowbugs, and the sculpins, and all those things that were in that stretch of the water, how does that stretch kind of heal itself and get back to healthy balance? Or will it get there? So, as more information, there is fishable water above the [00:12:00.039] section, there's fishable water below the section. And so, I'm sure some things will float down from the upstream part. I'm sure some things will swim and work their way up from the lower stream part. But I'm curious about how does that process look and what happens first. And how long, how many seasons does this sort of thing take to get back to a place that was close to where it was before? That's a lot of questions. I hope it's not too much. [00:12:30.820] But I was curious about it and wanted to hear your thoughts or thoughts of people that were around you. I love your podcast. It's always fun, entertaining, and it's a thing to look forward to. So, please keep them coming. Thanks, Tom. Tight lines.
Tom: So, Ben, aquatic insects fly, they got wings, and crayfish swim, as do small baitfish. And it actually doesn't take long for fish to recolonize [00:13:00.480] a new stream bed. I remember once on the Yellowstone River, just after some work had been done after a major flood, and it was just weeks after a new channel had been built on a spring creek there in Paradise Valley, and the rainbows were already spawning in it. And it was still disturbed. So, it won't take long. The bugs will get there pretty quickly because they fly upstream generally when they hatch and [00:13:30.120] drop their eggs and the eggs get distributed. And the crayfish and things like that, they move around. Plus, the aquatic insects have a thing called behavioral drift, where they let go of the bottom, usually in the middle of the night towards dawn, and they drift downstream. And this is a recolonization strategy. So, I would expect that this process is not going to take more than [00:14:00.059] a few months. And there will be bugs in there by next season. And if there's good habitat, the fish should move around in there and be thriving. So, it doesn't take long, especially if, as you said, you put good habitat in the new stream bed.
Here's an email from Justin from Rapid City, South Dakota, with a potential tip. "I have a modern gooseneck, sorta ring light magnifier for tying tiny flies. [00:14:30.340] I guess this means I'm getting old. I discovered it's not a unitasker, however. If I turn off all the lights in the room, angle the lens upward, put a light, my UV torch works great under it. And a fly on top, I can project to the ceiling a much larger-than-life profile of what a looking-up trout might see. I find this particularly comforting for foam, rubber-legged, hackle-legged, and any other large winged patterns. I feel like 99% of fly [00:15:00.039] tying instruction is presented from an angler's view as opposed to the trout's. I think for dries, seeing the underside amplified couldn't hurt. Does this make sense?" Yeah, Justin, absolutely it makes sense. What I typically do is just hold the fly up and look at the bottom of it from underneath to see what the fish are going to see on a dry fly, especially. Your method sounds interesting, and I'm going to try that.
I would urge you [00:15:30.019] not to use your UV torch for this because that light might get in your eyes and it can damage your eyesight. I would use just a regular flashlight in this case and not your UV torch. Yeah, it works for dries. Fish see nymphs and streamers from various angles, usually from underneath, too, because you're usually above the fish and they're tipping up for those nymphs. It's even a good [00:16:00.080] idea to look at your nymphs from underneath, not just on the side as we normally do when tying. Great idea and something everybody should try. Just don't use that UV light.
Here's an email from Darren. "Hi, Tom. Like everyone else, I'm going to start off by saying thanks for this podcast. I've been a regular listener for a while now and absolutely love every episode. I've been having issues with my casting lately. The fly [00:16:30.159] line itself will be nice and straight, but for some reason, the leader, tippet, and fly will whip from side to side. At first, I thought it was just when I was casting bigger and heavier flies like beaded flies, but lately, I've noticed it happening with dry flies as well. When the line lands on the water, it'll be nice in the direction I've aimed it to go, but the fly will often land about 3 or 4 feet over to the side. This means the fly doesn't end up landing where I was aiming for. I'm sure it's something that I'm doing wrong, but I don't know what it is. [00:17:00.440] In case it makes a difference, I have several rods going from a 1-weight up to a 6-weight and this happens with all of them. My leader tippet length is typically anywhere from 4 to 9 feet total. I'm also in B.C., Canada, where we are only allowed a single fly, so I'm not doing a dry dropper. Also, doesn't seem to matter if I have an indicator or not. Anything you can suggest for me? Thanks."
Well, Darren, yes, I think I know what your problem is. [00:17:30.420] As Pete Kutzer is always stressing, the rod tip must go in a straight line, both on the back cast and the forward cast, and it must follow that same line. Regardless of whether you're casting straight overhead or you angle off, you rod off to 45 degrees, or you even cast side armed where it's 90 degrees to the vertical to get under bushes and stuff, if that rod tip doesn't go back and forth [00:18:00.220] in the same plane, your cast is going to hook around at the end. You don't notice on your fly line because your leader and your fly are at the end of the cast where that hook is going to occur. What I would do is just watch yourself when you cast and make sure that you're not turning that tip either on the back cast or the forward cast. Often it happens when people cock their wrist off to one side when they [00:18:30.119] come forward. So, try to make sure that you slice back and forth through the same plane with your rod tip. Keep your rod tip in a straight line, and that should eliminate the problem. Give it a try and see if it works.
Matt: Hi, Tom. Matt here in Clemson, South Carolina. I recently had an opportunity to visit my native state of Kentucky to fish the Green River for smallmouth bass. Incidentally, [00:19:00.680] the Green is classified as an outstanding state resource water and home to a number of rare and endemic mussels. Nonetheless, armed with my Helios 3 and a handful of flies from the Orvis store and the kayak, the fishing that day was excellent. I started out throwing a size 8 Sneaky Pete weedless along the banks around snags and logs and [00:19:30.180] boulders. I wasn't fishing weeds, but that was the variety of Sneaky Pete that the store had in stock. Now, for my question. While I would hook a smallmouth every few casts, something was hitting or checking that popper almost on every cast. I'm wondering if you might have some insight as to what was going on. I was low in a kayak and my polarized sunglasses [00:20:00.339] have seen better days, so I really couldn't observe what was going on below the surface. Might bluegill or other small fish just been checking out the popper, or might the weed guard or maybe just my limited skills as an angler have been impeding the hook set. It was truly a great day, but the Sneaky Pete just caused a lot more commotion than Smallmouth brought in. So, just hoping you might have [00:20:30.160] some thoughts. Thank you, Tom, and thank you to Orvis for all you do in river conservation. If you haven't been, Tom, the Green River in Kentucky is truly a gem. Take care.
Tom: So, Matt, it sounds like it could have been both, and I think you've identified the problem. First of all, bluegills are incredibly aggressive, particularly when they're on their spawning nests, and they will peck at a bigger fly and [00:21:00.680] not put it in their mouth, or they can't get it in their mouth, but they'll peck at it. Sometimes they'll pull on the rubber legs and things like that. So, it could very well have been bluegills or other sunfish pecking at your Sneaky Pete. But the weed guard could also be the problem. If you're not fishing in really heavy cover and you don't need that weed guard, it's probably best to remove it, and you can just snip it off with your [00:21:30.359] snips or a pair of scissors and get rid of that weed guard because weed guards do sometimes block, especially smaller fish from getting a good grip on the fly. So, probably, a combination of both, and I think you've actually identified the problems, but don't stop fishing that Sneaky Pete. It's a great fly. Just cut the weed guard off.
Here's an email from Vincent. "Hi, Tom. I'm a regular listener of your show. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I have a question no one else has ever been able to answer. For [00:22:00.140] 20-plus years, I have fished a river out west that has a great salmon fly population and a so-so golden stone fly population. I probably see 50 to 100 times more adult salmon flies than goldens during a typical season. However, when nymphing or using a dry dropper, I catch far more fish on golden nymphs than bigger and darker salmon fly nymphs. Trying to control for variance as much as possible, I tie them pretty similarly, weighted rubber leg pattern with chenille body, just varying the color and size. [00:22:30.811] I tie the golden in a brown olive mottled body, size 6 to 8, and the salmon fly in black olive, size 4. I've caught many natural nymphs over the years, and I believe these patterns mimic the color and size very well. So, holding everything else constant, do you know of any reasons trout would take more golden nymphs than salmon fly nymphs? I have heard some people say it's the taste of the salmon fly nymphs they don't like, but I don't believe that. I prefer to believe it may be something about the fly behavior [00:23:00.640] and therefore something not being mimicked by either of my flies or fishing techniques. So, just curious if you have any thoughts. Thanks."
Well, Vincent, there could be several things going on here, and I agree with you that it's probably not the taste because fish eat a lot of salmon flies. We know they eat the adults and the adults probably taste similar to the nymphs. So, a couple things. One is [00:23:30.000] that if you're fishing a heavily pressured river, a lot of people fish those big dark flies and the fish may start to get suspicious of the bigger salmon fly nymph imitations and might accept a smaller stone fly imitation with more regularity. Also, the big salmon flies, they're pretty tightly attached to the rocks [00:24:00.079] when they're not hatching, when they're not migrating into the shallows to hatch. And goldens being a little smaller are probably not as able to hold onto the bottom, and they may get dislodged easier. So, the fish may see goldens more often than salmon flies. The other thing is that maybe golden stones migrate more than the salmon flies. They might [00:24:30.140] move around on the bottom a lot. And the more they move around on the bottom, the greater the chance they're going to get dislodged from their rocks and go in the current.
The other thing is that just because we are fishing what we think is a salmon fly imitation as opposed to golden stone doesn't mean the fish see it for that. Your golden imitations just might be [00:25:00.359] more eagerly accepted by the fish than your big black salmon flies. Generally, when fish are suspicious, generally going to a smaller fly is a better idea. So, I would just keep fishing those goldens and still try your big black salmon flies, but don't argue with success. It's working for you.
Here's an email from Steve. "I haven't been fly [00:25:30.220] fishing long, but looking to upgrade my wading boots. I have a pair of big box felt bottom wading boots that have holes where the studs are drilled in. I was looking at the Orvis Pro felt boots and noticed there are no holes in the bottom. Can you still add the studs? How do you know where to add them and how many do you add?" Well, Steve, that's an easy one. If you go onto the listing for one of the felt-sold boots, you will see a [00:26:00.400] little box down below on the right-hand side that says, "Stud placement manual." Go into that, and you click on the size boot that you're going to buy, and then that will give you a template that you can run out on a printer at 100% at full size. And then you lay that template over your boots, and you make a mark where the holes are. So, it will tell you exactly where [00:26:30.319] to put the studs. I just did that to a pair myself and it was quite easy. So, just look on the website, and you'll find that stud placement manual.
Here's an email from Dustin in Alabama. "Love the podcast and the great learning resources that Orvis produces. I've gone from knowing nothing about fly fishing to independently catching wild trout, thanks to the Orvis Learning Center and the podcast within a year. I'm very grateful for the education. On an episode a few weeks ago, you mentioned you almost [00:27:00.039] always fish a dry dropper on small creeks. When does a stream become small enough to make the dropper more of a hindrance than a benefit? Recently, I was fishing the upper reaches of a large creek that had rainbows, brooks, and possibly browns. The stream was 15 to 20 feet wide but pretty shallow. I was using a 12-inch dropper and snagging bottom fairly often. Is it worth it to use a 6 to 8-inch dropper, or should I just stick with a dry fly in these situations? I caught four on the dry, but wondered if I [00:27:30.200] spooked some while freeing the frequently snag dropper. Thanks."
Well, Dustin, yeah, small streams can get so shallow that the fish will always see your dry fly and always be willing to take your dry fly in that really shallow water. In a foot of water, a dry fly isn't that much different than a nymph really because it's not much more of an effort for them to come up for the dry as it is to eat a nymph underneath. And a lot [00:28:00.119] of their food comes from above. So, a couple things you can do. One is to just take the nymph dropper off. Twelve inches is definitely too long. You can try a shorter dropper with an unweighted nymph. Sometimes fish are a little more interested in a sunken fly than they are in a high-floating dry fly. And so, unless the water is really, really shallow, I'd still stick with a dry dropper. What you want to [00:28:30.059] do is put on something like a little sinking ant on your dropper. Six inches is fine for the dropper. The other thing that I will often do in a small stream when my nymph is hitting bottom too often, when I've got a beadhead on there or something, is to use a little soft tackle as my dropper, which will not sink very much, easier to cast than a beadhead. And sometimes just adding [00:29:00.140] a soft tackle on that dropper will get those fish that aren't willing to come up for the dry. So, try it either way. And I think you'll have a lot more success by taking that long dropper and a heavier fly off your rig.
Here's an email from James from Tennessee. One thing that's cool about fly fishing is that it can be done anywhere there is water. Anglers may start at a local pond and may eventually venture to traveling across the world [00:29:30.279] in search of a type of fish on the fly. I know you've done some global travel as an angler. Have you found it necessary to have any knowledge of foreign languages in your travels? If so, what would you say is a good foreign language to learn if one desires to travel globally in his or her angling pursuits? Thanks for any answers you can provide."
Well, James, yeah, you know, generally, when you go to a fairly popular international destination, the guides speak [00:30:00.180] pretty good English, but not always. And, you know, it's always appreciated if you try to speak to them in their language. I think they really think more of you as an angler when you've taken the time to learn their language. Because I fish in Cuba and in Belize and in South America, I found that Spanish is probably the best additional language [00:30:30.319] to know. Even though the official language in Belize is English, a lot of the guides are from Mexico or Guatemala or Nicaragua, and so they do speak Spanish. And, of course, South America, everyone speaks Spanish, except in Brazil. So, I have found Spanish to be very useful and, you know, it's fun talking to guides in their native language, and sometimes you have better communication when you do know their language. So, [00:31:00.019] I would advise learning Spanish.
Here's an email from Rick from Upstate New York. "I was accidentally introduced to low-light eye protection by my optometrist. My eyesight was borderline regarding a prescription, so he suggested trying 1.0 or 1.25 readers. Not only did they sharpen my vision, but they significantly improved my low-light vision by capturing more light. Now, I get better low-light vision while getting eye protection discussed in your last podcast. [00:31:30.160] Not sure if it will help others, but it is an inexpensive solution worth trying. Hope this tip can help some of your listeners. Now, for a quick question, do you find that trout and tailwaters tend to migrate toward the cool water reaches near dams when lower reaches warm significantly during unusually hot summers?"
So, Rick, that's an interesting solution, and I don't think it would be valuable for everyone because [00:32:00.599] adding a 1.0 or 1.25 reader might distort distance vision somewhat. So, it would be fine for closer work or intermediate work. But I would advise anyone that wants to try this to see their optometrist first to make sure that that would work for them. But, yeah, not wearing sunglasses in low light is always a better idea as long as you have eye protection because you do get more [00:32:30.640] light captured to your eyes, and sunglasses no matter how low light your sunglasses are, they still are going to cut down on your resolution. And sometimes resolution is more valuable than glare reduction. So, good idea. Yeah, trout and tailwaters will tend to migrate toward cool water reaches near dams. They may not go all the way to the dam because water that comes [00:33:00.200] out of the bottom of a dam, as I mentioned previously, is often relatively low in oxygen. So, I would go toward the dam but not real close to the dam because the water at the dam may not hold enough oxygen during the summer months. It has to have some interchange with the air before the oxygen gets saturated.
Dakota: Hey, Tom, this is Dakota from Colorado. I regret that I missed your many stops in the front range, but I was busy with work during the week and was fishing during the weekend dates. [00:33:30.119] I'm sure you understand. I have a question and a tip. The tip comes from the good people at Orvis-endorsed Breckenridge Outfitters. Before you step into any water, make sure that you fish directly in front of you and at least one working rod length in front of you. There may be fish just out of sight anywhere you go. And since I have heard this tip, I've caught two fish on two different outings, just by putting a few casts in where I want to enter before actually stepping in. So, shout out to them. It's a cool little trick. The question comes about river trips. I see people fishing river boats or rafts, and I have to ask, how [00:34:00.039] do people get the boats back upstream once they're done fishing? Do they have another car waiting for them when they pull their boat out? Do they have a motor that brings them all the way back up current? The logistics have never made sense to me, and I've honestly been a little too afraid to ask. Thanks for all your help and tight lines.
Tom: Well, Dakota, that's a great tip. Yeah, trout are going to live where they find it easiest to get food, and sometimes that's right where people step in. I wouldn't advise you to just always fish right [00:34:30.139] at a put-in [SP] because those fish are often disturbed. But there's no reason that a fish...if there aren't a lot of boats going in, not a lot of anglers walking in, there's no reason that a fish might not be right in front of where you first come down to the river. There's a reason there's a path there to the river because it's a good spot probably. So, yeah, it's a good tip and the guys at Breckenridge Outfitters are, of course, wonderful [00:35:00.920] guides and mentors. I just visited there myself. So, how do they get rafts back upstream? Well, there's usually a shuttle situation. So, let's say that you're fishing with a buddy and you're going to put a raft in upstream and then you're going to take out downstream. You take two cars, and if there's three people, you can leave one person with the raft [00:35:30.059] and then the two of you drive downstream, leave one car there, the car with the trailer if you've got a trailer, and then the two of you carpool back to the put-in and now you've got a car waiting at the bottom area where you take out. If you don't have three people, you may sometimes have to leave your raft there. So, I wouldn't put all your gear in the raft, but chances of somebody stealing your raft [00:36:00.199] are pretty rare, but I wouldn't leave flies and rods in the raft.
The other way people do it is that there are shuttle services where there is a lot of float traffic, and these are people who you'll call them, you'll arrange, you'll tell them where you're going to put in and where you're going to take out and you'll leave your keys somewhere secret, tell them where the keys are, and then the shuttle service will [00:36:30.199] come, take your keys, drive your car down, and leave the keys in the same place. So, there's a couple ways of doing it, but generally, a shuttle is the way they get the car waiting downstream. Generally, they don't motor back upstream because it disturbs the water too much. And, you know, they do it in some places. I know they do it in Chile and big rivers like the Baker because they have motors on all the rafts. But [00:37:00.019] generally, they don't motor upstream or row back upstream, they shuttle.
All right, that is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Pete Kutzer about casting big flies. Well, my guest today is the amazing Pete Kutzer, caster extraordinaire, my own casting instructor. I've been doing this for a long time, and I'm [00:37:30.519] lucky enough to fish with Pete, but I still get casting lessons. I still take casting lessons. And I knew, Pete, you practice almost every day casting?
Pete: Yep, absolutely.
Tom: So, those of you who don't practice, here's a guy who is better than any of us, one of the best in the world, he practices. So, we all need to practice.
Pete: That's an introduction. Geez.
Tom: Well, you deserve it. [00:38:00.739] One of the questions I get a lot on podcasts is, "I have trouble casting big flies. I'm casting my 9-foot 5-weight, and then I go to cast a big streamer or a hair bug or something and it doesn't work and what should I do?" Well, of course, casting with that bigger fly is one thing, but there's other things you can do, Pete, in your casting style and in your equipment selection.
Pete: Absolutely. [00:38:32.300] When our fly becomes a challenge, I look at it as there's two different scenarios with your flies that can give you challenges when you're casting. One is a really heavy fly and one is a really big fly or an oversized fly. Both of those flies are really large one, like wind-resistant fly, or really heavy fly. I think one of the keys really to keep it simple is when you're making that back cast is just letting that line totally straighten out [00:39:00.539] completely so you're not shocking the rod. If that fly and leader and line aren't turned over completely, when you start to move that rod forward in your forward cast, you're going to speed up that line straightening out or that rod's not going to start to bend. When you go to make your forward cast, you're basically wasting a lot of energy moving that rod forward and not loading that rod or getting that rod to bend. You're kind of defeating that cast or [00:39:30.239] killing your cast a little bit when you have that oversized fly or that heavy fly and you're not letting it unfurl or straighten out on your back cast, or if you're making a back cast presentation, your forward cast. I look at both of those flies. There's certain things we can do with both, with a heavy fly and with a really wind-resistant fly.
Tom: Well, that's interesting because, normally, you can get away with starting your forward cast just before your back cast straightens. A lot of [00:40:00.760] people teach it that way and do it that way.
Pete: Yeah, it's funny. I used to teach that way a lot, and I would always tell folks when I would be giving lessons. It's funny, in teaching for a long time, I was always a big fan of always trying to evolve, I guess, my approach to teaching or things to look at. I was trying to break it down as simply and as easily as possible for every caster because everybody's a little bit different. But I used to always say [00:40:30.079] in teaching casting, "Right before that line straightens out on your back cast, that's when you want to begin your forward cast."
Tom: Right. Yeah. I've heard you say that.
Pete: Yeah. I said it for years. But when it comes to a real heavy fly or a really wind-resistant fly, it's better to let that line straighten out completely. Now, you still have that issue of timing. If you go too early, it's going to cause that big shock. I've seen rods actually blow up from casting too big of a fly and that line not [00:41:00.059] straightened out, and you're just speeding up the rod, and then all of a sudden that line finally straightens out and that weight of that fly or the wind resistance of that fly just causes those rods to buckle.
Tom: Not a nervous rod.
Pete: No, no, of course not. But I've also seen if you wait too long, obviously, that fly is going to drop. If you have a big wind-resistant fly, a big deer hair pop or, like, a musky fly or something like that and it touches the water and you try to come forward real quick or too quick, I've seen rods blow up that way [00:41:30.000] as well. You still have to make sure your timing is good. You want that line to straighten out, but you don't want the fly to hit the water, and you definitely don't want that line to still be bent over when you're dealing with those oversized bugs.
Tom: Okay. Now, do you change the size of your casting arc with a bigger fly? Do you use a Belgian cast or...?
Pete: I do. I think watching a lot of people cast, it's funny. You [00:42:00.199] can tell almost... I don't like to brag about this, but when you watch enough people casting or enough good anglers, you can tell almost what kind of flies they prefer to fish. A lot of anglers who are fishing a lot of nymph rigs or a lot of streamers, they tend to have a little bit more of a "Belgian-style cast." It's a little bit of an ovally shaped to that cast. It's like a low-back cast. The rod comes up and [00:42:30.019] then that higher forward cast. Right now, I'm working with my hands, imagining this is videotaped.
Tom: Right. If people want to see this cast, they should go to the Orvis Learning Center in the casting area and you can see Pete demonstrating the Belgian cast.
Pete: Yeah. It's a great cast for those heavier-sized flies. What it causes is that loop or that cast, it opens up a little bit from that top fly leg to that bottom rod leg. [00:43:00.079] It helps them separate just a little bit more, keeping that fly from potentially hitting the rod or hitting the line. It also helps keep that rod always in motion. We always talk about how there's these defined stops in casting. There's a stop on the back cast and a stop on the forward cast. When you do this Belgian cast, you're making this rapid slowdown instead of a stop. The rod is going to continuously move, though. You're going to stop it on the back cast, but instead [00:43:30.300] of a complete stop, that rod actually kind of starts to lift up a little bit to then travel straight going forward or to make that forward cast. It's constantly moving, the rod. This rapid deceleration, the rod then moves, speeds up into another rapid deceleration if you want to get technical with it.
Tom: While we're on the Belgian cast, you and nearly every casting instructor in the world always says that your line should make [00:44:00.119] a straight line path. With a Belgian cast, your rod tip obviously does not make a straight ... Sorry, I said line, I meant rod tip. Your rod tip does not stay in a straight line. You had explained to me the rationale for that. Do you want to explain that to me again?
Pete: Sure. So, it's...
Tom: Because I forgot what you told me.
Pete: Well, it's funny because we've had this conversation multiple times. [00:44:30.800] I started looking at it, and I see where you're coming from. With the Belgian cast, it's a big circle that you're kind of moving the rod in almost or like an oval.
Tom: Right. Yeah, which you tell people not to do.
Pete: Correct, correct. However, when you're casting, I like to think of it as almost two straight lines. It's not completely straight. I'm going to say that right now. It's recorded now, so I can't go back. [00:45:00.639] It's not completely straight, but the straightest path possible on the back cast and then the straightest path possible on the forward cast. Think of it almost like two straight lines, if you will, or two...
Tom: With a little change of direction in between?
Pete: In between, yes. You might do a straight line down low and then a straight line up above, and they're almost parallel, but there's that little move that your rod has to make to get on the other track, if you will.
Tom: Yes. So, your rod tip [00:45:30.019] is not staying in a straight line.
Pete: It's staying in a straight-ish path...
Tom: Straight-ish, yeah. Okay.
Pete: ...to the stop on the back cast. It's coming back as straight as possible, and then it's going forward as straight as possible. The straighter we can keep those paths, the tighter that loop will be on our back cast, the tighter that loop will be on the forward cast. With a Belgium cast, we're purposefully opening it up a little bit so we don't get that fly to hit that line or hit that rod. You [00:46:00.139] are opening up. You can do a Belgium cast very, very tight where it's almost the same path back, same path forward, and then you get this really, really tight loop. If we open it up a little bit more, we can get a little bit of a wider loop that'll help when we have maybe a real heavy fly. It's a good thing to do, but I like to think of it as two straight paths.
Tom: Okay. I'll buy that.
Pete: We're trying to stay as straight as possible because that helps that cast.
Tom: One of the things we should [00:46:30.179] have mentioned at the very beginning is that it's harder to cast a big fly.
Pete: Oh, without a doubt.
Tom: It's not going to feel the same as casting a size 16 dry fly. It's harder work. You've got an air-resistant and/or heavy object on the end, and it's just not going to feel the same, right?
Pete: A hundred percent.
Tom: Yeah, we've got to stress that.
Pete: Absolutely. I was mentioning earlier, I've been able to almost identify what [00:47:00.920] people like to fish more just by watching them cast. You watch streamer anglers, like I was saying before, that are sometimes casting. Some of these trout flies are massive. They're almost as big as musky flies. Those big flies, it is a little bit more of an open loop. It's kind of this lower sidearm back cast than over-the-top kind of forward cast, pretty much a Belgian cast. Another thing you can do when [00:47:30.219] you're dealing with those big, oversized flies, I think a great tool is learning how to water haul or how to flip that fly out. This is really common with tarpon anglers. It's also really common with musky anglers. In tarpon, they're not necessarily casting those big flies. It's more of a speed thing. You can flip that fly out on the water, and then...
Tom: Behind you.
Pete: Or in front. You can flip that fly out in front. Let it land on the water just for a second. Then use [00:48:00.199] that water tension to really pick that or really help load that rod well. You want to make sure you brace the butt of the rod up against your forearm. There's this technique called bracing that's going to help when you're dealing with that water tension and that bigger fly. Then fire it once on your back cast and then make a delivery. Don't try to make another false cast in between. That's one way when you're dealing with bigger flies or wind-resistant flies. Make that one cast. Try not [00:48:30.019] to sit there and false cast those big flies because, like you said, they're heavier, they're harder to cast. The more time that flies up in the air, the less fish you're going to catch, and the more chances you have of something disastrous happening like that fly wrapping around you or your rod. Try to cast those big heavy flies or big wind-resistant flies as little as possible. Keep them in the water.
Tom: Yeah, I do that. I do that. I know a lot, especially with sinking lines, a water load behind me in [00:49:00.300] the opposite direction. Let it fall to the water and then fire it from there to get some tension on it.
Pete: Only for a second, though, with those sinking lines because if you wait too long, then you're hosed.
Tom: Yeah, yeah. I don't wait too long. I even do it with floating line, too, big bugs sometimes. Just drop it on the water. With floating line, you can let it sit and then fire it forward. Now, you have to be careful because your back cast isn't going to be as high and sometimes that can [00:49:30.500] go through your body.
Pete: Absolutely. One of the things you're doing, too, by doing that is the line is straight, too. What I was talking about earlier, when you're dealing with those big flies, your leader, your fly, it's all totally straight. As soon as you start moving that rod forward, you're loading that rod well. You're getting a good acceleration. If it was curled up or if it wasn't turned over completely, you have to move that rod forward, just to get that line to straighten out and then you're loading the rod well. [00:50:00.599] Doing that water load, it loads the rod right away. When you're dealing with those bigger flies or heavier flies, it loads the rod right away. It makes that cast actually a lot easier, too.
Tom: Now, what happens if you have trees and brush behind you and you're along the shore of a lake?
Pete: That's a great question. There's a lot of different styles of casts you can do, depending on the fly. If the fly is too big, some of these casts might not work, but you can do a lot of [00:50:30.119] space-style casts where you can actually...with a single-handed rod, I guess you could do a snake roll where you cast it along the bank, do an aerial snake roll and then fire it out. That's getting real deep in the weeds, and that's showing off, too, doing a lot of that stuff. It's cool to see. It's really cool to see. It's not very easy to do. It's tough with really big flies or heavy flies. I'll do a lot of roll casting [00:51:00.254] to try to get it out there. I might almost throw a little bit of a steeple-type cast where I try to send that back cast as high up as possible if it's low brush. If it's tall trees and there's a tunnel underneath, I'm always going to look at my back cast, though, before I make a forward cast. If I have a target in mind, like where I want my fly to go, I always try to inspect where's my back cast going to go first before I even make that cast.
If there's a lot of obstacles behind me, [00:51:31.099] I might have to play around with my angles. If I'm on a lake, it's a little tougher because my fly might not drift to that position. I might try to make some roll casts. I might try to get in a different position where I can make that back cast and make that forward cast. But if there's a lot of stuff, sometimes you just got to cut your losses and find a different area. If you can't get that fly out there, it's tough. I always try to [00:52:00.019] look at the area. If I get to an area, like, if I see some fish rising, like, "Okay, how can I approach that area," or if I see some structure and maybe there's fish swimming around it, I'm like, "Okay, well, they're down deep, but I can see them." I'm going to try to find, "Okay, where is the best position I can get in, where I can get a fly to those fish?" So, I'm not going to just start casting and get stuck in the tree right away because that just makes a lot of frustration.
Tom: Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment of the situation. [00:52:31.139] So, you talk about roll cast. Are there any tricks to roll casting a bigger fly? Let's not talk about sinking lines with a roll cast, but just a floating line and, you know, maybe a big hair bug on a bass pond. Are there any tricks to roll casting a bigger fly?
Pete: So, when you're roll casting a bigger fly, one thing you can look at is the leader. If you have a really long, light leader, it's going to be tough. [00:53:00.719] And so, I'll sometimes shorten up my leader, stiffen it up to...maybe I'll just tie on a straight piece of heavy material if the fish aren't leader-shy, or I'll tie on a stiff butt section. Let's say I'm making, like, a 7-foot leader, maybe it's 5 feet of, like, 40-pound test, and then I'll tie on maybe some 12-pound test off of that. Trying to figure out some way to get 12 and 50 to connect is going to be a challenge but...
Tom: Tippet ring.
Pete: Yeah, tippet ring [00:53:30.039] is a good step. But I'll do something like that, and that stiffer leader, shorter stiffer leader will help turn over that bigger fly. With that roll cast, you can haul with a roll cast as well, and hauling with that roll cast will help turn over those flies. Hauling is great, too. Just like with a double haul or a single haul, you can make that haul with your forward cast, and you can make a haul with a roll cast when you make that forward cast, and that'll help [00:54:00.000] turn over that line a little bit better. It gets it going a little faster, and that can help turn over that larger bug. Hauling just speeds up your line, makes things go a little bit faster, cut through the wind a little bit better, and you'd be impressed by how far you can start to roll cast when you incorporate that haul to that roll cast.
Tom: Where do you put the haul in the roll cast as you're...? Is it a...?
Pete: You're going to put the haul [00:54:30.079] the same place that you put your haul in your regular cast, right with kind of that flick. If you think a roll cast, you come back, let's say you're...because you can't see me, let's say you're up by your ear, that imaginary telephone or something.
Tom: I can see you. You're sitting here in my studio.
Pete: Yeah, you can see me, but everybody else listening can't. Well, the key to the roll cast is we want to bring that hand forward. We're going to bring it almost straightforward, and then we're making a flick. I had a great, great casting [00:55:00.039] instructor explain this to me, and I couldn't believe how well it worked. But you almost want to think that hand's going to move straight forward, then you're going to make that flick because you want that rod tip to stop high. You can say...almost imagine that hand is going to go from A to B in a straight line going forward, and then C is going to be that flick. You're just going to go A, B, C in a nice straight path with your hand. Well, that haul is going to happen with C when you're making that flick forward. Right as you're making that flick, that's when you're going to make that [00:55:30.139] haul, and that'll speed up that line. It'll get it to turn over.
I think where a lot of people mess up on a roll cast is instead of flicking it forward, they flick it down. They try to come down to the water and there's this misnotion, I guess, of getting the line to roll over on the water. We don't want that. You want the line to roll over in the air and then come down to the water. And so, thinking, "Oh, the line's going to roll over on the water." Well, that's just not true. Get it to roll over in the air. It'll [00:56:00.039] straighten out, and you'll get a much nicer presentation, and you'll be able to deliver that fly a lot easier. But think about that. Just think about coming straight forward, then making that flick so that rod tip is going to stop fairly high, almost above your head when you make that roll cast. And then right with that flick at the end, right as you're coming to that stop, that's when you're going to incorporate that haul.
Tom: So, you don't have a return. It's a single haul. You don't have a return of your hand on the back cast to the guide. So, as you come up for the [00:56:30.019] roll cast, I assume that you want to grab the line near the first guide, right?
Pete: Correct.
Tom: So that you're all ready to haul.
Pete: Yep, or right next to the reel. So, it's almost like your hands are together. Both of your hands are going to be up by your ear. Both of your hands are going to come forward, and then right as you're giving it that flick, you're almost continuing that flick with that haul. That just helps load that rod a little bit more, bend that rod a little bit more, giving a little bit more speed, a little bit more power to get that line out there.
Tom: I don't know [00:57:00.019] if I've ever tried that, but I'm going to try it next time I'm on the water.
Pete: It's pretty slick. It's pretty slick. You'll see it'll turn over fly pretty well.
Tom: Okay. I'm going to give it a try.
Pete: And it can give you a little more distance, too, in your roll cast. So, like we were talking about, if you had those obstacles behind you and you're fishing on that lake, I would definitely incorporate hauls into that roll cast to try and get a little bit more distance if I wasn't getting out to the fish, throwing that haul. You can also make it a little bit of a spey cast, too. [00:57:30.500] So, you have your anchor or that line sticking to the water, get the end of that line where it meets that leader a little bit closer to you, preferably right next to you if you have the room, or right across from your body when you make that roll cast, and you'll be able to make a longer roll cast, too. Where the fly line and leader meet, if that's way out in front of you, it's going to be really hard to make that long roll cast. Try to get where that fly line and leader meet closer to you. Still in the water, but almost right next to you, and [00:58:00.239] you'll be able to make a longer roll cast a lot easier.
Tom: Then you have to shoot line on that roll cast.
Pete: Well, you would have that same length, just a little bit further behind you.
Tom: Oh, okay. So, you don't strip it in, you just move it a little bit further off to the side?
Pete: Yep, and a little bit further back, too.
Tom: A little bit further back than you normally would on a roll cast. Yeah, so it is almost actually like a single spey.
Pete: Exactly. Yeah.
Tom: Okay. Gotcha. Interesting. And [00:58:30.079] those of you who don't know what a single spey looks like or a double haul, again, go to the Orvis Learning Center. Pete demonstrates it very well and has some really good tricks on practicing the double haul or a single haul.
Pete: Yeah, like you were saying earlier, I do, I practice all the time. I just got some new lines actually recently, some new instructor lines from our friends at SA that I'm pretty excited to practice with and play around with. They're [00:59:00.139] pretty cool-looking so far. I haven't casted them yet. I just got them yesterday, so I'm excited to give them a shot. But they're bright colored lines, really easy to see. So, I think it's going to be a great line for teaching.
Tom: Is the taper any different, or is it standard taper?
Pete: Standard taper. And that's one thing...I worked with some of the guys at SA a while ago on an instructor line, and it was our old iteration, and I was very adamant. I want it to be the exact same line as what someone's going to fish [00:59:30.199] with.
Tom: Yeah, yeah, it makes sense.
Pete: It's no different. And I never liked those beginner lines or practice fly lines that were dedicated to learning how, and then all of a sudden, you put this trout line on or your saltwater line that's completely different. It's got a different taper to it. I was never a big fan of that because you're not using what you've been practicing with. And so, I like bright colors on lines for practice. I like more muted colors when I'm fishing, but I [01:00:00.039] want to make sure it's the same line. So, what I feel with that line when I'm practicing is the same thing I'm going to feel when I'm out fishing. I think that's pretty important.
Tom: That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. We talked a bit about adjusting your casting style. Let's talk a little bit about the tools for the job. One of the things I've observed and I think a lot of people have observed is that if you have a big air-resistant [01:00:30.500] fly, adding some weight to that fly can sometimes help move it. So, instead of a big air-resistant fly with a deer hair head, you might use a big air-resistant fly with some lead eyes or metal eyes. Is that true that adding some weight to that bigger fly will help it move?
Pete: I think [01:01:00.099] so. You're adding a little bit more mass to that fly, and that mass is probably going to help it extend a little bit easier on your back cast and your forward cast. If it's something big and light, like if you take a feather and try to throw it, it's not going to go anywhere. But if you take that feather, put a little bead on it or something like that, something with a little bit of weight, now it'll... Excuse me, I'm messed up, too, now. It'll throw a little bit further just because it has a little bit more mass. It's [01:01:30.179] still roughly the same length and same, I guess, wind resistance. But now that it has that little bit more mass, it'll go a little bit easier. So, if you get it going, it should, I guess in theory, then be a little bit easier to cast. But back to what I was saying earlier, when I have a big wind-resistant fly or heavy fly, I think the key, though, is still to make sure that when you make your back cast, before you make your delivery, getting that line totally straight, you know, totally [01:02:00.638] straight. I'm going to do this with a wind-resistant fly or heavy fly, getting the leader to straighten out, the fly to straighten out before I start coming forward on that forward cast. Once it's straight, then I can go forward. I think that's going to make it easier, regardless if it's a heavy fly or a wind-resistant fly.
Tom: Pretty obvious to a lot of people, but maybe not to everyone, is that you need the right tool for the job, right?
Pete: Absolutely.
Tom: You can take [01:02:30.260] a 5-weight rod and you, at least, Pete Kutzer, can throw a big hair bug with it. Not going to be much fun, you can do it. But there comes a point, I think, where you're just overloading your rod. You need a heavier rod with more stiffness. You need a heavier line because it's got more mass and that mass will help deliver that bigger fly.
Pete: Absolutely. I think that's the key is the line. [01:03:00.500] Heavier rod, it's going to make it easier. And because it's got a heavier line, that line, they measure the weight of them. Like a 1-weight to a 12-weight, all has a certain amount of weight, or it's supposed to have a certain amount of weight in that first 30 feet. Well, the more mass you have in that first 30 feet, the higher the rod weight you want to use, the bigger the fly you can essentially cast. I think that just makes life so much easier. There's a lot of situations where I find myself using a little bit [01:03:30.139] of a heavier weight rod just because it's easier. It's actually easier to cast that heavier weight rod. Right now, we're in the summertime up here in the northeast and a lot of us love to do a lot of striper fishing. When I go on striper fishing lately, it seems all I'm catching is what we call schoolie-sized fish. That's a fish from 15 to maybe 24 inches, not a huge striper, but I'm still using a 9-weight when I'm fishing [01:04:00.139] for those fish. Could you catch them on a 7-weight? Absolutely. But the flies are a little bit heavier that I like to throw in shallow water. I'm throwing a lot of these crab and shrimp flies that are pretty heavy.
Tom: And air resistant.
Pete: And air resistant.
Tom: Crab flies are very air resistant.
Pete: I throw a 9-weight most of the time, and sometimes a 10-weight. The 10-weights these days are so light. It feels like casting an 8-weight from just 10 years ago. They're so much [01:04:30.079] lighter than these new rods, and they're so much easier to cast. It's amazing. The first rod I ever got for striper fishing was a 10-weight. The rod was a lot of fun then, but I could never....even for nostalgia, I won't pick it up because it's just so darn heavy and cumbersome. The rods, it feels like I'm picking up a 5-weight now, these new 10-weights. It's ridiculous how light they are. [01:05:00.000] The lines are so much better, too. They cast so much nicer. It's pretty amazing, some of this new technology. It's a lot of fun to fish with. I can comfortably fish a 10-weight, I feel, all day long now without having any kind of fatigue from casting a rod that's too big or too heavy. Even 11 weights and 12 weights, which were notoriously hard rods to cast because they were so heavy, or tiring rods, I should say, to cast. They were so heavy. They're so much lighter now. [01:05:30.780] It's really not an issue.
Tom: Yeah. People worry about not having fun with a smaller striper with a 9 or a 10, but a 24-inch striper will put a good bend into a 10-weight.
Pete: Oh, absolutely.
Tom: It's still going to be a battle.
Pete: Absolutely. My favorite part is seeing that fish coming after that fly and then eating that fly. That's my favorite part. It's not necessarily the fight. [01:06:00.267] It's not holding the fish or anything like that. If I can just...I don't want all of them to get off, but chase the fly, grab it, get a run or two out of the fish and then the fish comes off, I'm happy. I'm totally happy. The fish swam away strong. That's a good thing.
Tom: Yeah. It's a different thing when you're fishing for 6-inch brook trout and you want your rod to bend a little bit, then you want a light rod. But in salt water and I think bass fishing, where you don't often need a lot of delicacy, [01:06:30.659] you're better off over-rodding yourself than under-rodding yourself. If you worry about delicacy, if you get into a flat water situation or shallow water, you can always extend your leader to keep that heavy fly line further from the fish. So, yeah, I think that makes sense.
Pete: Absolutely. It's funny when you asked about...you said, "Pete, let's do a podcast about casting big flies or heavy flies." I was like, "All right." Well, most situations, [01:07:00.219] the classic response you get is, "Oh, shorten your leader. Let it straighten out." But there are times where you do have to use a long leader with a heavy fly in striper fishing. I think it's a prime example. Permit fishing can also be an example, too. Sometimes it is a heavy fly. Not always. But that heavy fly on a long light leader, 12-pound test, maybe it's a 12, 14-foot long leader, that can be a little bit tricky to cast.
Tom: What are your [01:07:30.059] tricks for that?
Pete: Well, one, I do throw a heavier weight rod. There's a lot of situations where I like throwing that 10-weight because it handles that fly a little bit easier. I think the big thing is the leader construction. I think that's huge. Having at least half of that leader be that butt section or that thicker part of that leader. Let's say I have a 12-foot leader. I might have at least 6-feet be 50-pound [01:08:00.179] test. I want that leader to try and match the diameter of the fly line as close to...or the butt section. So, it could be 40-pound test, it could be 60-pound test. It doesn't really matter because your tip at end is maybe 12-pound test. But I want that butt section to match the fly line as closely as possible. If I can make that butt section be the same diameter and at least half of the length of that leader, that's going to help with [01:08:30.020] turnover. It's almost like you're just extending the fly line with that longer butt section. And then I'll rapidly taper it down to that 12-pound test. And I think that helps turnover those heavier flies when you're using those long leaders. Just straighten out or lengthen out that butt section.
And if you're someone who buys pre-made leaders, if you're not making your leaders, just take your 9-foot...let's say it's a 9-foot 12-pound leader, cut off the perfection loop. I know that's scary for [01:09:00.000] some folks, but just cut it off and then add on some 40-pound or 50-pound or 60-pound, whatever matches it. Most good leaders will have the diameter of that butt section. Just match that and stretch it out. And so, you're adding tippet almost to the back end of that leader. Then put a perfection loop on it, loop to loop, and you're in good shape. So, you're turning that 9-foot leader into a 12 or 14-foot leader just by adding 4 or 5 feet to the butt section. And I think that'll [01:09:30.199] help give that good turnover. It'll help turn over those heavier flies as well. If you just add tippet to it, it's going to be tough. It's not going to turn over well. If you have 12 feet of 12-pound test on the end of your line, it's not going to turn over well.
Tom: No. And I tell people that with trout fishing as well. When I do presentations, I almost always talk about extending the butt section of your leader if you think you're spooking fish. But you can add quite [01:10:00.359] a bit to the butt section without really affecting the casting characteristics of the leader that much. It's going to be a little harder to cast, right? Little bit.
Pete: But you're right. It's not much. It's not much. If it's a good cast, it's going to turn over. It's going to turn over. It's going to get where it needs to go. It's only when you get into that 20-foot-long leader situation where it's like, "Okay, oh..." And small dry flies or air-resistant dry flies, you've got to use [01:10:30.119] light tippet. If that fly has a little bit of mass, like some B chain eyes or lead eyes to it, I think that fly is going to help making that good cast. That fly is going to still jump right out there.
Tom: So, how about practicing? People have been listening to this and they, "Yeah, I've been having trouble casting big flies. I think I need to practice." What do you recommend? How do you recommend practicing for casting with a big fly?
Pete: Well, [01:11:00.779] find a big fly that you don't mind cutting the hook off and cut the hook off and practice with that. Practice with a shorter leader, and you can progressively try to lengthen it out. Practice one side at a time, too. When I practice, I'm a big advocate of doing a low sidearm cast and watching my back cast. Let it land on the grass, then making a forward cast, watching it land on the grass, and keeping the whole casting plane, if you [01:11:30.079] will, relatively low. I'm doing that almost like a sidearm cast. It's almost like I was throwing a frisbee. It's that low. I'm going to work one side at a time with that big fly, and I'm going to try and get it to turn over and straighten out each time. As I start getting comfortable at that low angle, then I'm going to start bringing that rod tip up a little bit higher and then maybe just brush the ground for a second or try to not let it touch the ground on one side. Maybe it's the back cast, maybe it's the forward cast.
[01:12:00.520] I'm going to start bringing that rod tip up, and then I'm going to start playing around at different angles, you know, try that Belgium cast where it's a low-angle back cast and a high angle forward cast. I'm going to try a backhand presentation with that bigger fly, but I'm always going to practice with that fly, cut the hooks off. It's going to get tough if you're casting it on tall grass. Make sure you're at a golf course or you just mowed your lawn if you're doing it there. If you're doing it on pavement, it's going to chew up your line. It's going to chew [01:12:30.100] up your leader and your fly a little bit, especially if it's freshly paved. You can practice on the water as well. That's always a great option. That doesn't impact your line nearly as much, but practice one side at a time with that big fly and give it a shot. I do usually recommend when you're practicing, not practicing where you want to fish because then all of your attention gets shifted to fishing. You completely forget about casting, and I'm just as guilty [01:13:00.020] of this as anyone. When I see water, I just want to go fish.
But I think that's a good thing to do is cut off those hooks and practice with a fly that's about the same size as what you think you're going to be fishing with. If I'm going on a cool trip where I'm going after a fish that might be kind of tough or is a challenging fish, I go out in the yard and I tie up some flies or purchase some flies. If you don't [01:13:30.159] tie, I'll cut off the hook on one of the flies and I'll practice with that. I'll set up some targets and try to cast at those targets. I'll make sure with the leader that's the same length that I'm going to be using or roughly the same length. I try to recreate the situations I think I'm going to find myself in and just practice that on the lawn, though, where I'm not seeing the fish. Whenever we see a fish, though, we inevitably get excited. And that's a good thing. That's why we want to keep on coming back and doing it. You see [01:14:00.039] that fish rising, it gets your heart pumping. You see that big striper cruising a flat, or a permit, or a tarpon, or a bonefish, that's why we do it. That's the exciting part. That's always hard to mitigate your emotions when you're out there fishing. But the more you practice away from those fish, I think the less chances you're going to have of messing up your cast when that opportunity arises.
Tom: Right. Okay. You've touched on this [01:14:30.180] briefly, but one of the things that we should stress is that you're fishing a big fly, wind-resistant fly. You need to practice so that you don't have to false cast or false cast once because you mentioned this. The more that fly is in the air, the greater the chance of the error in the trajectory.
Pete: Yeah. My corny joke was always like, "Fish live in the water, get the fly in the [01:15:00.020] water." The more time your fly is out of the water, the less fish you're going to catch. And it's true. It's totally true. But also, the more chances you have of making a mistake and entangling yourself. And when you're in a site fishing scenario, there's a good chance those fish are moving, you know, those fish are moving around. Or if you're on a flat or something like that when you're saltwater fishing, those fish are moving. And even site fishing for trout, sometimes those trout are cruising around like if you're on a [01:15:30.140] lake. And if those fish are moving and you're casting, casting, casting, well, those fish are going to be in a different spot every time you make that false cast. And so, you're constantly changing your angles, changing your direction. And get that fly to the fish as quickly as possible. That's the most important thing. Speed and accuracy is, I think, more important than anything in fishing. You want to get that fly to that fish. You know, it's great when we have that fish that's sitting still and [01:16:00.119] rising. But if you're doing any site fishing, where fish are moving around, you want to get that fly to that fish quickly.
Tom: Yep. Yeah, about the only fishing... Well, two kinds of fishing I can think of where you don't need to do it quickly is a rising trout, maybe a barracuda that's not cruising. Well, maybe a largemouth bass, I guess, or a smallmouth [01:16:30.039] sitting waiting for prey. But other than that...
Pete: Yeah, you get, like, a laid up fish or something like that, you know, fish just sitting still. That's the only time where you can take your time. But if that fish is moving around, if you see that fish, there's a good chance it might see you. And the quicker you can get that fly in front of that fish without it seeing you, I think the better your chances are of catching that fish.
Tom: Yep. All right, Pete. Anything else you can think of on big flies that we haven't covered?
Pete: [01:17:00.560] I think practice, practice, practice. That's the thing. Get out there and try it. If you've got a trip coming up where you're going to be throwing larger flies, practice. Think about your tackle. Is it the right size tackle? If you're going with a guide, ask the guides, "What size rods are you fishing with most of the time?" You'll see that a lot of these guides, they pick their rods to the situations that they're [01:17:30.079] in. So, if you're going with a guide, see what rod they're using. And if you have one similar, give that a shot. But don't be afraid to use their equipment, too, because it's specialized for that fishery. If you're fishing on your own and you're not going with a guide, just ask around or look around and see if there's anybody that has any recommendations on what size tackle.
Make sure you have good balanced tackle, I think, is the key. When you're dealing with heavy flies or oversized flies, balanced tackle is going to make [01:18:00.279] your life so much easier. We've heard that adage, I guess, bringing a knife to a gunfight. You wouldn't bring your five-weight striper fishing. It's just too light. You're not going to be able to cast the flies. And so, I think making sure you have good balanced tackle, a good leader, good line, good rod for the scenario you're in, it's going to make things that much easier. And if you do have to go outside with that bigger fly, just [01:18:30.340] taking your time, practice with that, though. Mistakes are going to happen. It's going to happen. But I think practice is going to make your life so much easier. And I think that's the most important thing. It's just practice, practice, practice. Practice throwing an oversized fly on your rod. Throw a bass popper on a 5-weight, just to see what it feels like. Yeah, that's...
Tom: Yeah. And it's interesting we're talking about practicing because yesterday, I was [01:19:00.420] reading a bunch of reviews on the Orvis website on some Orvis-endorsed operations. I don't know how I got into this rabbit hole. Anyways, I was reading a bunch of reviews and it was a saltwater destination, a couple of them actually in the same area, and to a person, all the reviews said something to this effect. "The guide was great. He showed me a lot of fish, but I wish my casting had been better, and I didn't practice before [01:19:30.199] I went." I mean, every review said that. Every person that reviewed it said, "You know what? My casting wasn't good enough." And we see it time and time and time again. I don't know how many times we can harp on this, but you got to practice. If you want to have fun and reduce your frustration, you got to practice.
Pete: Absolutely. Absolutely. Couldn't have said it better.
Tom: All right, Pete. Well, I want to thank you for taking the time today, driving [01:20:00.359] all the way over to my house to do this in person. That was fun. And always appreciate you coming on the podcast, and they're always super popular because you're the best at explaining casting without visuals.
Pete: Even though my hands are flying around like crazy.
Tom: Yeah, mine are, too.
Pete: Yeah, they're both false casting.
Tom: Or not false casting. We're not false casting.
Pete: Yeah, not much, not much.
Tom: No, not much. Just one false cast in between. All right, Pete.
Pete: [01:20:30.260] All right. Thanks, Tom.
Tom: Thank you. Talk to you soon.
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at