Wild and Crazy Stories from an Award-Winning Fly-Fishing Guide, with Chip Swanson
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And this week, we have what I think is a fun podcast for you. It's kind of crazy stories from a fishing guide. I'm going to be talking to award-winning Orvis-Endorsed Guide [00:00:30.300] of the Year for, I think, 2019, Chip Swanson. Chip's a great storyteller. And when we get together, I always ask him, "Tell me some horror stories with clients." I love hearing these things. And guys won't share those with everybody, but Chip and I are good friends. And so I asked him to share some of these stories with you.
Now, fair warning that I would call this podcast rated PG. Usually, [00:01:00.460] the podcasts are suitable for all ages. And I don't think there's anything really objectionable in Chip's stories, but there's a little off-color stuff. And so just a warning, if you do have your kids listening to this, you may want to listen to it first before you play it with your kids, just to make sure there's nothing in there that offends you or your family. So you have [00:01:30.260] been warned. But again, I don't think it's that bad. I don't think it's anything they wouldn't hear in the schoolyard. But just to make sure, maybe you ought to review it first before you share it with your kids. And I hope you enjoy the podcast.
And before we do the Fly Box, just a heads up for a product that I'm really fond of that I use myself a lot and something that maybe a lot of people pass by when they're considering [00:02:00.299] fly boxes. I am not a big fan of foam-slotted, fairly narrow fly boxes except for nymphs. I think that by putting any dry flies or streamers or anything that's bulky in these slotted, fairly thin boxes, you crush the hackles, you crush the wings on dry flies, and it just gets them out of [00:02:30.180] shape. And the foam-slotted streamer boxes, most of them are just big and big and bulky. And as a waiting angler, most of the time I'm a waiting angler, I can't carry those big streamer boxes with me. And I do like to have some streamers with me when I'm on the river.
So I keep both my dry flies and my streamers in fly boxes called the Meiho Clear Case Fly Boxes. [00:03:00.620] They come in shallow and deep versions. And I'll tell you how I use them. Now, for all my dry flies, size 16 and smaller, I have one shallow Meiho Clear Fly Box. And I can stuff a ton of small dry flies into this box. I don't like a lot of weight, and I don't like a lot of bulk, but I also like to carry a lot of flies with me. And I can put a ton of small dry flies in [00:03:30.419] this fly box. And you can organize it however you want. That's up to you. But you can carry a lot of flies. And yes, sometimes if the fly you want is at the bottom of the compartment, you have to do a little picking through there with a pair of forceps or with your finger. But it allows you to carry a lot of dry flies without having to carry multiple boxes.
And then I carry another dry fly box. I carry the deep one. And this is where I put my [00:04:00.150] bigger flies, my stimulators, Chubby Chernobyls, hoppers, beetles, wolfs, big Parachute Adams, stuff like that. Even a couple of mouse patterns. I put those in the deep box. And I also carry my streamers in a compartment box because, again, I can carry a lot of streamers without a lot of weight and bulk. And what I do is these boxes have adjustable compartments. And I pull out a lot of the dividers so [00:04:30.480] that I have long, skinny compartments in the box. And then I organize my streamers that way. So, generally, streamers I organize by color. So I have black ones and tan ones and olive ones and white ones and whatever.
But if you're having trouble organizing all your fly boxes and carrying everything with you, everything that you want to carry on a particular day, I would really look into these clear compartment boxes. I think they're going to save [00:05:00.160] you a lot of bulk and a lot of weight in either your fishing vest or your pack or your sling bag, whichever way you decide to go when you're out fishing. They're not expensive. They're $16.95 each for either the shallow or the deep. And I think that's a good price. They're very durable. I've had the three that I use for about three years now, and they're still in really good shape. [00:05:30.620] They have good hinges on them and good clasps. So highly recommended fly box.
All right. Speaking of fly box, let's do the fly box. And the fly box is where you ask questions or share a tip with listeners. And I try to answer your questions or share your tips. And you can get your questions to me at
"Hey, Tom, thanks for the podcast and all the valuable information you share with us listeners. My question is about potential trout behavior in a local 225-acre lake in Kentucky. The Fish and Wildlife Department stocks rainbows in the lake a few times a year. At the end of one of the branches [00:06:30.199] of the lake, there's a small creek that drains into the lake. The creek is around a 1/2 mile of varying depths and widths. Would stocked hatchery raised rainbows move up into that creek when the seasonal temperatures begin to drop or would they most likely stay in the main body of the lake?"
Well, Nick, that would be a tough one. And I'm not sure I could answer that. It's probably going to depend on water temperatures in both the lake and the stream. And [00:07:00.000] if there's suitable spawning gravel in the stream for rainbows to spawn in...you know, rainbows are going to tend to look for water that's somewhere between 50 and 60 degrees. That's their preferred temperature. So if the stream coming into the lake is at that temperature and the lake is either colder or warmer, then, yeah, the rainbows might tend to migrate into that stream. The other thing is that in the spring, [00:07:30.420] those rainbows are likely going to try to spawn.
Now, there's two places they're going to try to spawn. One is often where they were dumped in a particular place in the lake. So they'll often go to the shoreline near where they were stocked. But some of them may decide to try to ascend that stream to spawn. And they might do this anytime from even November through April [00:08:00.439] and probably March and April would be the times. But, again, it's going to depend on the strain of rainbows that were put in there and the water temperatures. But I would advise you to investigate that stream just to try and see if you can find out if those stocked rainbows are going to use it.
Thomas: Hi, Tom. This is Thomas from Cookeville, Tennessee. You're awesome. Orvis is awesome. I'll leave it at that because we all know it's true. [00:08:30.319] The other day, I had an electrician come over to the house, and he noticed my fly rod tube carrying case. And we got to talking fly fishing. He said that he's a member of several clubs. And one of the things that he found at one of those was a blank for a 0-weight rod. And he said he hasn't finished it yet because he has yet to find the "elusive mysterious 0-weight line." I'm still very much a novice [00:09:00.100] in fly fishing. My knowledge is still very lacking in all the ins and outs and far intricacies of this. I can do the basics, and I super enjoy it. I had never even heard of a 0-weight rod, 0-weight line.
So I have three kind of quick questions. One, I mean, they exist, right? He's not just pulling my chain. This is actually a thing, yes? Two, where would you find a [00:09:30.120] 0-weight line or 0-weight equipment for this thing? I mean, what reel do you even use for it? What would the setup look like? And three, what do you use this for? I mean, I have no idea how light a 0-weight line and rod would be. What do you use this for? I'm just very curious now whether or not I see him again and can refer him to your answer. I'm just very curious for myself. So if anyone would know, you would know. Appreciate it, Tom. Tight lines.
Tom: Well, Thomas, you know, for a while [00:10:00.159] there were some 0-weight rods sold, and I don't know if you can find a 0-weight line anywhere. You can check the internet. I haven't done that because I don't do web searches for people, but you can try to search on the internet to see if you can find anyone that's offering or selling a 0-weight line. But a 0-weight line is almost a level line just because the core, [00:10:30.340] the dacron core in a floating line is going to be a certain diameter, and you need to put some coating on that, and you get to a point where there's almost no coating on the line. So it's going to be very, very thin.
And honestly, 1-weight lines are available. I know Orvis sells a 1-weight line, and Scientific Angler sells a 1-weight line. I think if you found a 0-weight line... I think a 1-weight line would work just fine if you can't find [00:11:00.100] a 0-weight line. But, yes, they were made. Was it a fad or was it a novelty? I guess so. I never actually had a 0-weight rod, but I do have a 1-weight rod that I'm actually using right now. I used this morning. It's a prototype of a new Orvis's rod. I can't tell you much else about it. But there is a use for a 0-weight or a 1-weight rod. [00:11:30.440] And that's in places where you're mainly fishing for smaller trout and you want the ultimate in delicacy. And, also, where there's a lot of small trout, you get a pretty good fight even on a 7 or 8-inch fish on a 1-weight rod.
So what I have been using it for is I've been fishing a Trico hatch in a place that's very close to me. And [00:12:00.930] the fish are mostly small. They're running 7, 8, 9 inches, maybe 10 at the most. And they're very spooky and very fussy. And I've been using 7X on these fish, which I don't like to use if I don't have to, but 7X lands a lot lighter. And they're also in a really picky place where drag is an issue. And with this 1-weight line, I can throw a fairly long 7X tippet and avoid [00:12:30.860] most of the drag in this really difficult spot. But 1-weight rods are not good in the wind at all. You get the smallest amount of breeze and fingers are going to blow back at you.
And, also, they're really not useful in a fly larger than maybe a 14 or a 16. You know, not that great for a dry dropper or indicator fishing or anything else. But if you're fishing really small dries, really small nymphs, and the trout are mostly small, [00:13:00.070] it's a lot of fun. Not that you couldn't land a 20-inch trout on a 1 weight, but you'd have to play it pretty hard. And it does protect fine tippets. So the rod flexes. So if it's going to cast a 1-weight line, it's going to really, really flex. And so it will protect... You got a big shock absorber there, and it will protect a lot of tippets. So they're very much a special purpose rod. They are a lot of fun with small trout or bluegills or [00:13:30.220] other sunfish or other panfish. So if you can't find a 0-weight line, I think a 1-weight line on that rod would probably work just fine.
All right, how about another email? This one is from Todd. "I've been fly fishing for about five years now, and I'm finally getting the hang of this wonderful outdoor sport. I do know that I need some help [00:14:00.080] in being stealthy and taking my time when fishing, as it will produce better results. What tips do you have besides the standard, 'Don't step right in,' that you think would help? How do you make sure you're not moving too fast, especially if you are not having so great of a day? Also, do you think studded boots or wading staff cause enough noise to spook fish? Thanks."
So Todd, it's important to remember [00:14:30.840] that trout are both predators and prey. And a lot of things like to eat trout. And the things that like to eat trout either come from above like a heron or an osprey or an eagle, or they swim at the trout like a mergansers or mink or otters. So the things, the two things you want to avoid are movement above the water. So you need to keep your movements relatively slow. [00:15:00.333] You know, the slower you move, the less likely trout are going to be to spot you. Movement is what spooks them. And they see movement in their peripheral vision, and they immediately stop feeding and may run for cover because something's up above the water.
And the other thing is waves in the water. So, you know, mergansers, otters, mink push waves as they swim. When you step in the water, if it's a still pool, you want to make sure [00:15:30.179] that you move slowly enough so that you don't push waves out to the point where you think fish are feeding or you see them feeding. So you need to move slowly. You know, try to keep yourself in the shade if you can. That will lessen the ability of a trout to see you if you're in the shade, particularly if they're in the sun and you're in the shade. Throwing shadows on the water is not a good thing. False casting over a fish, because that's movement above water, [00:16:00.039] is not a good thing. You want to try to false cast off to the side. And, you know, don't land a heavy fly line on top of the fish because that will scare them.
I, personally, don't worry too much about the color of clothing I'm wearing. I do try to blend in a little bit with the background, but just muted colors. You know, it's movement that scares fish, not colors. So you just want to try to blend into [00:16:30.159] the background as best you can. Keep your movement slow. Don't push waves in front of you. Not so important in riffles. You know, you've got moving water and broken surface. You can get a little bit closer to the fish, and you can push waves because they're going to be lessened by the riffles in the water. So that's not so bad. I honestly don't worry about studded boots or wading staff, even if the fish can [00:17:00.399] hear your studded wading boots, and it's doubtful that they can hear studded wading boots or wading staff from very far away.
You may want to listen to the podcast I did a couple weeks ago with Jason Randall. But the predators that go after trout don't make those kind of noises. So I don't think it's a disturbing noise to them. You know, they have not evolved [00:17:30.380] to be protected from people with studded wading boots. They've evolved to be protected from things that want to eat them. And I don't think we've been fishing over trout long enough for them to have evolved to be wary of clicking noises on the bottom. So, anyway, I wouldn't worry so much about that. Move slowly. And the other thing, obviously, is try [00:18:00.059] to get downstream of a fish because they can't see you as well when you approach them from downstream.
Here's an email from Adam from Northern Arizona. "I know you've mentioned using the salmon length polyleaders before for stripping streamers and other tactics in lieu of using dedicated sinking lines. I'm mostly fishing for trout on relatively light setups, 3 and 4-weight, 9-foot rods, and have used the [00:18:30.019] 7-foot trout length, fast and extra fast polyleaders with some success on small swift moving streams. I've typically added about 4 to 5-feet of 3X level fluorotypic material to the streamers. I never really thought I was able to penetrate the water in fast moving currents, so I just bought the 10-foot salmon fast and extra fast sink polyleaders.
They seem really heavy in comparison to this 7-foot polyleaders. I was going to set them up in the same manner, but [00:19:00.099] just wanted to hear your tippet set up regarding these tools for trout. Also, you've talked about extending the butt sections of your nylon leaders multiple times, which I've had great success with. Definitely a game-changing tactic for adding distance with lighter setups. Is this something you do to all your leaders, or do you have just a few modified ones for specific circumstances, if so, what are these circumstances? What's the drawback of adding extra [00:19:30.259] butt section other than tying some knots?
Finally, it's been said before by guests and listeners, but a wading stick is the newest edition to my fly fishing setup that has definitely changed my willingness to get into swifter currents. As a guy in his late 40s with less cartilage in the knees than days in the past, I can honestly say, I wish I got one years ago. I wear studded wading boots. I try to stand on one leg while brushing my teeth for improved muscle and balance as [00:20:00.259] one of your guests suggested, but nothing compares to a retractable wading stick."
All right, so Adam, first of all, I do use those salmon leaders for trout. You know, they're heavier and there are times when you need to get deeper, and it's perfectly all right to use a salmon leader for trout. Nobody's going to arrest you. I would use the same tippet as you would for the 7-foot trout leaders. It doesn't really matter. [00:20:30.039] You want to use a tippet that's appropriate to the size streamer you're fishing, 3X might be a little light. You might want to go 2X or even 1X in general on those because you don't really need a thinner tippet for fishing streamers because you're moving the fly and you don't need to worry about dead drifts or drag or anything like that.
So, same tippet, 4-feet of 2X or 1X, just level tippet. You don't need a tapered leader there. [00:21:00.880] And, yeah, that should work fine for you if you need to get a little bit deeper. Regarding extending the butt section of my leaders, I generally start with either a 9-foot or a 12-foot leader, right from the package, a knotless tapered leader. And if I think that my fly line is landing too close to fish, and the tip off to this is [00:21:30.140] you see some fish rising and you cast near them and they stop rising, that's probably an indication that your fly line's landing a little bit too close to the fish. Because fly line lands a lot heavier than the butt section of your leader, and it creates waves in the water.
So, what I do is I generally carry a spool of 50 or 60-pound monofilament with me, and if I think I need a longer leader because I'm spooking fish, then [00:22:00.039] I just add it on the fly to my particular leader that I'm using. Is there a disadvantage? Yes. Adding 3-feet of butt section, it's not going to affect the casting characteristics of your leader that much, but it will be a little bit more difficult to cast. You're adding a little more air resistance into the system. So it will be a little bit more difficult to cast, especially on shorter casts. But other than [00:22:30.000] that, no, there's not that much problem extending your butt section.
Aaron: Hi, Tom. Summer of '23, we were in Alabama on vacation, and I booked a redfish trip, but the water was just really too rough to get out of the bay. The guy had assured me that we'd find some fish in the bay, and we did. Some Jacks, but they refused our offerings. We only saw one redfish. When I went to cast to the one redfish we saw, [00:23:00.940] I slid my foot just a little bit on the deck of the boat and spooked the fish. The guy felt so bad that I blew my only chance. There were no fish hooked that day. After the trip, the guy graciously gave me a 30-minute lesson on casting many directions without moving my feet. He had me cast every hour of a clock, if 12:00 is straight ahead to go to your left all the way down [00:23:30.420] to 8:00 or 7:00, and then go all the way back the other way to 5:00 all without moving your feet. And he said that I needed to learn how to do this so that I wouldn't spook the fish by moving my feet.
He implored me to exercise this or to do this exercise so that my next boat fishing trip, I would do better. The first of this August, I spent time with my family [00:24:00.400] near Dillon in Silverthorne, Colorado. We were there for a couple days reprieve from the heat of Kansas. I was fishing below the Dillon Dam on the tailwater of the blues, of the Blue River. That practice of casting around the clock actually works well for a river too. Before long, I hooked an 18-inch rainbow on an Olive Hare's Ear Nymph. This is really my first solo stream rainbow of decent [00:24:30.330] size. I later learned that I should have been using a Mysis Shrimp pattern fly.
My tip is, is to practice your casting in all directions without moving your feet. It really comes in handy at other times too. Now, to my question, I was at the river first daylight, and I had it all alone. Then finally an angler came in. He said, "It's really too early for the fish." [00:25:00.221] I'm really confused. When I go fishing here in Kansas, we catch fish at first light. Do trout not get up and eat before light? Or do they wait till the sun hits the water? The fish I caught indeed was after the sun had come up quite a ways. Thanks in advance for your comments and answers. [00:25:30.803]
Tom: So, Aaron, that's a great skill, and I would urge anybody who's going to fish from a boat to learn that skill of casting at any hour of the clock. Just remember that 6:00 and 12:00 are a little bit dangerous for the guide who's sitting in the middle of the boat. So you may want to leave those two out unless you're in a boat by yourself. [00:26:00.295] It's okay to do this on a trout stream, but it's going to be a little bit uncomfortable. Actually, you're going to be better off casting...if you're wading in a stream, you're going to be better off facing your target. You don't really need to cast over your body in most instances, unless you've got some brush or something that doesn't [00:26:30.319] allow you to cast in the normal way.
But I wouldn't worry so much about it when you're wade fishing. It's generally better if you can square off and face your target. It's going to be easier to put your fly where you want it. But definitely fishing from a boat, that is a fantastic skill to have. Now, regarding your experience on the Blue River, it's all about water temperature. And where you are at home, your waters are probably pretty warm, [00:27:00.140] and they get warmer during the day, so that it makes sense to be fishing at first light. When the water is cooler, the light level is a little bit lower, fish are a little bit more likely to be out in the open looking for prey. But on the Blue River, it comes out of that dam... I was just on the Blue River a few weeks ago.
And it comes out of that dam and the water temperature is in the 40s somewhere. And [00:27:30.039] that's a pretty low temperature for trout, particularly if trout later in the day are exposed to 50, 60 degrees, those are kind of prime feeding temperatures for trout. And so, yeah, at first light on a cold tailwater like that, because all fish are cold blooded, they respond to water temperature really more than anything else. The insects aren't really moving around that much. They aren't that active. The trout [00:28:00.200] are not going to be feeding very actively. And so, you know, you might catch some fish at first light because they're going to be less anglers on the water and less disturbance. But, generally, in those in those tailwater rivers, that water needs to warm up a little bit before the fish get actively feeding.
There's an email from Joe. "First of all, I want to thank you for doing so many podcasts on diverse species and locations. When I [00:28:30.059] first picked up a fly rod, most of the resources I could find assumed two things, trout and moving water. If other situations or target species were mentioned at all, they were given a little blurb at the tail end. Oh, yeah, I guess you can fish for bass too. While I understand that the vast majority of fly fishing is done for trout, the waters near me have about as much chance of holding humpback whales as brookies, browns, or rainbows. So in-depth info about fish like pike, bass, etc., are the [00:29:00.180] first podcasts I look for. My question is about two-handed rods. A few years ago, I bought an 11-foot 8-weight mission switch rod. I was mesmerized by the elegant spey casts I saw online.
But more importantly, I heard a lot about how a switch rod could blast a fly out much farther than a single-handed rod. And as a shorebound angler who always seemed to be 20-feet short of the fish, this really appealed to me. I understand that in terms of grain weight, this rod is more like a 10-weight than an 8. So after [00:29:30.019] I moved to the Midwest, I decided this would be my big game rod for bass, pike, and muskies. The problem is that my casts are both much shorter and much uglier than I expected. I heard on an earlier podcast that fishing two-handed means being a line geek. So I tried out a couple lines to see if it would improve matters. Single-handed casting with my 480-grain Orvis Skagit Head was a disaster, as was my attempt with a 480-grain Scandi Head.
[00:30:00.579] Since Orvis no longer sells a dedicated switch line, I tracked down another 450-grain integrated line with a short head purported to be designed with switch rods in mind. And while it's an improvement, I still struggle to cast any further than I would with a single-handed rod and with half the delicacy. Short of showing up at Pete Kutzer's house, how would you recommend I get more out of this rod? I've heard in previous podcasts that people use these things to cast in the surf, but nothing [00:30:30.059] about the line setup. If you're going to take a switch rod out in the surf, how would you set it up and use it? As cool as this rod is, I'm giving serious thought to replacing it with a 10-weight clear water and weight forward line. Please help."
Well, Joe, first of all, you're never going to get the same delicacy with either a Skagit or a Scandi line, especially with a Skagit line. Skagit lines are designed mainly for throwing [00:31:00.587] sinking lines or sinking heads and getting a lot of distance. And it's all about shooting line. It's not so much about being able to pick up a long length of line as a shooting line. These lines, even the Scandi line, are very front-loaded. And you've got to aim higher, and you've got to know that to get that longer cast, you're going to have to shoot a lot of line. [00:31:30.119] So a stripping basket or better line management, holding those extra coils aligned, and aiming higher on your forward cast and, you know, making sure the rod flexes properly by just practicing your casting technique, first, will allow you to shoot more line.
So will you get any more delicacy with that rod? Probably not. You should be able to get more distance, [00:32:00.380] however. And again, it's going to be all about shooting that extra line, not false casting it. So try to practice a little bit and work on shooting that line to get that extra distance. And that's what, you know...in the surf, I would probably set this up with either a slow sinking or an intermediate weight head. And in surf fishing, you [00:32:30.000] don't need the delicacy, but you do want distance. So I would probably go with it with a Skagit-type line in the surf. Well, no, I would go with this Scandi-type line just because I think it'd be a little smoother. But, again, it's all about distance and not about delicacy or sometimes even accuracy.
Here's an email from Brandon from New York. "I have a trip coming up. Until now, I've never had to take my waders [00:33:00.079] and boots on a plane. Any tips or tricks on how to travel with them? I'm specifically concerned about the boots drying prior to the flight as I'll be pretty much using them up until I leave, thanks in advance." Well, Brandon, you know, you pack your waders the same as you would a raincoat. You just stuff them in a bag or roll them up and put them in a duffel bag. There's no real extra care needed with waders on a plane. [00:33:30.180] With your wading boots, you know, even if you let them dry for a couple days, they're still going to be a little bit heavier, and they're still going to probably hold some moisture. The only thing I can suggest is if the place you're going has boot dryers, you might want to put those wading boots on a boot dryer. Some lodges have them, but I don't know, you didn't say where you're going, so I'm not sure.
But, you know, just to be on the safe side, I always pack a plastic garbage bag with me. I mean, there are [00:34:00.220] bags they sell for holding wading boots and keeping the wetness from getting on your other clothing and gear and stuff. But honestly, I find that just a plastic garbage bag, and I just put my wading boots in a garbage bag. One important piece of advice is when you get home, take them right out of the garbage bag, because if you forget about them and you leave them in the garbage bag in the basement, they're going to be really smelly and moldy the next time you pull them out. So just [00:34:30.260] pull them out when you get home and dry them off. But they're going to be heavier. No doubt about that. You're going to have a little bit of extra weight in your bag, but just take a garbage bag, and it'll keep the rest of your gear from getting all grubby from your wading boots.
Here's an email from Michael from Oregon. "Your podcasts with Jason Randall were fascinating. Changes to how I fish are happening for sure. I also want to plug your book, "The Orvis Guide to [00:35:00.059] Finding Trout," and your other Orvis books too." Well, thank you, Michael. "After reading this book, I found myself seeing rivers and streams almost like I never really saw them before. I'm not in the 10% yet, but the information and guidelines you present are sure helping me get closer. As to trout sense of smell, can they smell us? By that I mean, can they smell the sunscreen we put on? Can they smell, if, unfortunately, one is a smoker, the nicotine on your fingers, [00:35:30.519] what you had for lunch, and whatever other scent we may unwittingly put on our flies and fly line? If they can, does it really matter? I read a story once about a lady who insisted on washing her hands with toothpaste before she handled her fishing gear. She claimed this removed human scent or some such. Seems like you would then smell like toothpaste, but it worked for her, I guess. Thanks for all your work for us in the fish."
So, Michael, thank you [00:36:00.300] very much for your comments on the book. It was a fun one to do. It took me about three years to write, and I'm pretty happy with the way it came out, so glad you liked it. I don't worry about trout anyways and scent, because even if they could smell something, the fly is going past the trout so quickly. They're visual feeders, and they're going to be [00:36:30.360] just reacting to the look of your fly and how it's behaving, and not how it smells. By the time they commit to take your fly, they're not going to smell it until they're right on top of it. And, yeah, might they spit it out a little quicker? Maybe, but they spit out an artificial fly pretty quickly anyways. They reject it because they know it's not food once they get their jaws on it.
So I would not worry about [00:37:00.019] that. Some things like sunscreen and insect repellant, you have to be careful of getting on your fly line or on your tippet material because, particularly, some of the insect repellents, the ones with DEET, can degrade your fly line or your tip material. But I wouldn't worry about the smell. I think that that's...at least for trout, it's not an issue. Now, for other species, it's possible. Species like [00:37:30.260] carp, and I suspect that permit have a really good sense of smell. You're generally, with both carp and permit, you're not dealing with current, and if you are, it's not a big current, so whatever fly you use may have an aura of a scent around it that they don't like. But in moving water with trout, I don't think it's an issue. But other fish, maybe it is. Who knows?
Kyle: [00:38:00.619] Hey, Tom. It's your old pal Kyle out here in Boulder, Colorado. Walking the dog right now, and we're kicking up hoppers. And I'm watching them fly away, and I notice the wings. They are tan, green, or often black. They're never white. So my question, why are we always tying these hopper patterns with white wings? I know it's great for visibility, and we're not really being [00:38:30.039] hyper realistic with these patterns most of the time anyways. But do you think there's a picky fish or two on the margins to be picked up by tying a darker wing on something like a chubby? Incidentally, I've been tying and fishing your Rosenhopper a lot this summer, which has that Elk hair wing on the back. And I love it. And it's been super successful. Anyways, hope you're well. [00:39:00.119] Thanks for all you do for conservation and environmental advocacy and activism. Bye.
Tom: Well, hi, Kyle. Kyle is a friend, by the way. I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying your move to Colorado. You know, I'm not sure if the white wings put off trout, but I suspect maybe it might [00:39:30.019] cause fish to reject our hopper imitations sometimes. And I would experiment with tan, green, or black wings. You'll notice on my Rosenhopper fly, that unlike a Chubby Chernobyl, the wing on that is a tan color because although white's really visible, I think it is sometimes a little too bright and a little too unnatural to look like an insect. And if trout, you know, in certain circumstances like [00:40:00.260] slow water can see the fly really well, then I think maybe that slightly more muted wing could be an advantage. And, you know, some of the best hopper patterns over really particular trout are ones with mottled turkey wings like the Letort hopper or Ed Schroeder's parachute hopper. You know, those are often go-to hopper patterns for people who [00:40:30.280] are fishing over very sophisticated trout or very picky trout when they're eating hoppers. And, you know, those turkey wings look a lot like a hopper wing, those mottled turkey wings. So there may be something to it. I would experiment, and I expect a report back from you on this.
All right. That is a fly box for this week. Let's go listen to some stories from Chip Swanson. [00:41:00.800] Well, my guest today is Chip Swanson. Chip's been on the podcast before. He's an old pro at this, right, Chip?
Chip: Oh, yeah.
Tom: Chip was the 2019 Orvis Endorse Guide of the Year, was it 2020?
Chip: Yup, you got it.
Tom: 2019. Oh, good memory, huh?
Chip: Yeah, very good.
Tom: And a good friend and a great storyteller. In fact, Chip and I were having dinner a few weeks ago in Breckenridge. [00:41:30.239] Went out to dinner with the Breckenridge crew, and we had a lot of laughs, and Chip started telling some stories. And I thought, "Wow, this would be a fun podcast, you know, guide disaster horror stories." And it's one of my favorite things to do because, you know, guides are a little more likely to tell me things that they wouldn't tell other people. And every time I have [00:42:00.260] a few drinks with a guide, I always say, "Hey, come on, tell me some guide horror stories, some client horror stories." So you're going to tell some stories today, and I'm going to listen. So why don't you take it away?
Chip: Okay. All right. Well, we'll start off with one that I was telling you the other day at dinner. So, we're [00:42:30.219] going on a float trip, and it's the very start of the float trip. And so we take off from the float in, and I kind of go down, and these are some brand new clients that I've never had before. And so I've got to do a casting clinic, teach them how to cast, teach them how to manage, how to catch fish, and all that stuff. So, anyways, I get down there, and my rods had been rigged from the day before. So I clip off some flies and kind of put them down. And so I give them this casting clinic and everything's good. [00:43:00.340] And I said, "Okay, you guys go ahead and practice these casts real quick, and I'll kind of sit down and start to pick out our rigs, and I'll start to get things going here while you're just finishing practicing your cast."
And so I get one rigged up, he starts fishing, I get the other one, and I go ahead and I sit down in my seat. And when I had taken the flies off of those rigs that I had rigged up, I [00:43:30.059] had taken like a patch of rubber legs and the other flies, and I had put them on my chair. Well, I immediately sat down, and I had forgotten I did that, and I thought I had gotten stung right in the butt, and I thought I sat on a bee. And turns out I reach back, and I have that pat's rubber legs that has pierced my butt, [00:44:00.880] not only on the right cheek but the left cheek. And basically, the hook went through and was holding both of my little butt cheeks together.
Tom: And it was not a barbless hook, right?
Chip: No, it was not. No, it was not. And so I'm like, "Oh no, this isn't good." And I felt it, I tried to give it a tug, it wasn't coming out, and that was not good. I was like, "Oh my goodness, this is the start of [00:44:30.019] the trip. What am I going to do here?" And I was just like, "I got a cowboy up." And so I just reached back, I grabbed my hemostats, and I'm kind of like looking at the guy that's fishing, and I kind of stand up and try to divert their attention. I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, good drift, look over there." And I just had to reach back with my hemostats, and I kind of did kind of a fix. I screamed, "Set," at the same time I pulled that hook because I knew it was going to hurt. So I was like, "Oh, set, oh, Lord." [00:45:00.380] And I had to pull the pat's rubber legs right out of my butt, and then had to row down the rest of the day with a very sore tushy. Yeah, so that was one starting off a trip, rather rough.
So, anyway, next one, I'll tell you is kind of a [00:45:30.059] fun story about going up to OGR. And so if people don't know, OGR was the Orvis Guide Rendezvous. And every other year, we used to hold it up in Missoula and guides from all over would come. We'd have guys like the guys from Magic Waters, Eduardo come all the way up from Chile. You'd have guides from all over the place kind of show up, do this conference, do, you know, guide Olympics with Hutch Hutchinson. [00:46:00.239] And you get to go to conferences, and you get to fish up in Montana. So, this was always in April. So, anyways, a bunch of us guys from Breckenridge Outfitters decided, all right, we're going to tow some boats up. On the way up, our owner Tim was like, "Hey, I'm going to get you guys a place up in the Henry's Fork. We'll go up there, and we'll fish. So let's cruise on up." All right, great.
So, we've got two cars towing two boats. And then another two guys just following in their cars. We get all the way to [00:46:30.000] Jackson Hole, Wyoming. And we get into Wilson there, and we're about to go over Teton Pass. And it's lightly drizzling, nothing crazy in terms of weather. But the signs say, "No trailers over Teton Pass." And so we start making phone calls in between all of us. And it was like, "They've got to mean trailer, like, you know, semi-trailers, right? Like, that's what it's got to mean. Like, that makes sense. It's only drizzling [00:47:00.079] down here. You know, it's April, for goodness sake. So, it's fine, right? We're all fine." And so there's phone calls firing back and forth pretty quickly. And it's like, "Yeah, I think we're good." So we get all the way over Teton Pass, no snow or anything like that. But as we're getting over to the other side, we get down past all the sharp curves, sharp bends, and everything. And all of a sudden on the left, we see a state trooper who has pulled over a guy that [00:47:30.179] is towing a fifth wheel. And so he's facing kind of going back towards Jackson. And we're, you know, on our way into Idaho at that point.
And that poor state trooper, he looks up, sees us, I see him just start sprinting back to his car. And so he's sprinting to his car. And at that point, we had a bunch of cars behind us, eight cars, you know, we were doing the speed limit and all that [00:48:00.159] and just trying to be safe. And so, anyways, he starts sprinting to his car and starts pulling over. And where that pullover was, where he pulled over those people, was only a couple miles from the Idaho border. And so we're just cruising. He doesn't turn on his lights or anything, but he quickly whips around, and he starts passing all these cars, no lights, no sirens, or anything. But he's quickly trying to get up to us. And he got about two cars behind where [00:48:30.119] our two guys not towing the boats were. And right then, we cross the Idaho state line. And we see this trooper just all of a sudden pull over. And I think that was the end of his jurisdiction. And he didn't get to light us up and get us. And we were like, "Oh, my gosh, I think we made a big mistake. And we just slid through that one." Sorry to any Wyoming state troopers, respect you guys. We were fools, we understand. [00:49:00.612]
But, anyway, so we get up to the Henry's Fork. And sure enough, that night, a giant storm comes in, and we're sitting in the hot tub like, "Oh, my gosh, we really messed that one up." We're feeling kind of like bandits at this point. And so we get up to Missoula. And it's the day before OGR really starts. And we're like, "Hey, let's go fish the blackfoot." And so a bunch of the guys hadn't been there. I was like, "Guys, you know, I've always been checked by Rangers on the blackfoot." [00:49:30.701] Like, we got to have all our stuff straight. You know, I've had some run ins with the Department of Natural Resources or the fishing and game guys. And I was just like, "They always check you. So everyone make sure you have your licenses." So we go to that fly shop that used to be near the hotel and get our licenses and whatnot. And we go up there. And so we're all fishing.
There's like six or seven of us, and we're all just kind of gang fishing. And it's kind of, like, I don't know, at [00:50:00.059] some point is like, "Okay, I'm going to go back to the car and grab a beer and just take a relaxing break." You know, we're all kind of gang fishing it. And, anyways, we go back, and two other guys kind of come with me, and one guy, unfortunately, he's not with us anymore, but he comes with us, and he had some back problems and whatnot. And so I'm grabbing a beer, and he pulls out some of the devil's lettuce, and kind of goes in on that. And [00:50:30.000] right then, sure enough, here comes fishing and game warden. Drives in. He hops out of the car, and that guide, he just stuffs everything into his pocket. And the game warden and pulls up. He goes, "Hi, how you boys doing?" We said, "We're doing good." And he goes, "You, sir, right there. What did you just put into your pocket?" He's like, "Nothing." And game warden is like, "Don't give me that." He's like, "What'd you put into your pocket?"
[00:51:00.400] And the guy is like, "Well, you know, I got this. You know, I'm from Colorado. I have a legal card." And the officer looks at him and goes, "You know what state are you in, son?" He goes, "Montana." And he goes, "Don't do that here in Montana." He's like, "That's not okay." And he goes, "I'm going to let you off without a ticket. But don't let me catch you doing that again." He goes, "Yes, sir. [00:51:30.119] I'm very sorry, sir." He's like, "Let me see your licenses." And sure enough, we had all our licenses. We were straight there. And we go back to seeing the guys down on the river. And we're like, "Guys, I told you, you know, we just had a run in with the Department of Wildlife." And one of our guides is like, "Oh, my gosh." And we just got out of that. Like, this is, like, two incidences in three days. Like, we are totally los banditos. [00:52:00.461]
And so we were kind of cracking up and also very thankful to some forgiving officers. But that one spicy guy that said oh, you know, we're the los banditos. Sure enough, that night, we were all out having drinks or whatever. And he kind of disappeared, and he left. And we saw him the next morning. And he had gotten a tattoo that said los banditos on it. And [00:52:30.354] then it turns out, I don't know, a few weeks after that, someone had told him it was some sort of gang or something, and he needed to not show that anymore. But, anyway, that was the los banditos story where we narrowly avoided some stuff. Sorry Montana Fishing and Game, and sorry Wyoming State Troopers. We won't be so stupid next time.
Tom: [00:53:00.340] There were worse things that happened at those OGRs, but we won't talk about them.
Chip: Yeah, we'll keep those on the down low.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Chip: All right. So, next story, this was one of my funniest client stories. These people showed up to do a float trip, and they were very, very fun. Nice guy and his son, 13-year-old son. They were from Houston, and very kind. So we go down, [00:53:30.860] same thing as before, kind of do this little casting clinic, and we're fishing, we're fishing. And the kid is in the back of the boat. And he's tangling like crazy. And that's a normal occurrence for most guides where you're having someone who's tangling, but this kiddo was just tangling like crazy. And very patient, you know, I don't mind tangles. It happens. It's part of life. But about the sixth time he had a really, really bad tangle. [00:54:00.219] And he looks up, and he goes, "Dad, Dad, look at this tangle. It's horrible." And his dad goes, "Yeah, buddy, you need to listen to Mr. Chip. And we need to kind of cut that out a little bit." And kid goes, "Man, it's so bad, Dad. Look at it. It looks like abstract art." As dad quickly pipes up, he goes... The kid goes, "Yeah, abstract art, huh?" He goes, "Maybe I'll study abstract art in college."
And his father immediately jumps out. He's [00:54:30.039] like, "You will not study abstract art in college." So I'm laughing. I'm kind of giggling at these guys. We keep going. We have lunch. And on our float trip, in one spot, we pass a natural hot springs. People have been using it since the 1700s, like, goes back to, like, Ute Indians and stuff, apparently. And it was kind of a quiet Tuesday. And so we get to that hot springs. And it happens to be where the river is very flat. It's almost like a lake-type flat. And so we kind of were just [00:55:00.280] cruising up to it. It looks like no one's in there. And all of a sudden, a beautiful blonde lady stands up topless. And she looks us square in the eyes, and she goes, "Oh, hi, boys." And all of us just like teenagers go, "Hi." And she jumps into the river, swims around, jumps out, and gets back into the hot springs, and then turns around says, "Have a nice day, guys." [00:55:31.159] All of us again, like teenagers are like, "Thanks. Bye."
And the dad turns to the kid goes, "Do not tell your mother about that." So I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, how can this day get any funnier?" So we keep floating. And I don't know about 2000 yards above the takeout, we're fishing towards the bank, and I go, "Oh, my gosh, you guys look, there's two bears right on the side of the river." So we go over, and [00:56:00.360] we're taking photos of the bears not getting too close, but they're right there. And they weren't too spooked by us. And so we take some photos of the bear, we keep fishing, and we get to the takeout. And I pulled the boat out, and we're derigging. And I asked this young man, I said, "So what do you think of fly fishing, like, you know, on the river and this boat and everything?" He's like, "Man, it's so awesome. Boats. Boobs. Bears. [00:56:30.260] I love fly fishing, Mr. Chip." I just lost it. And I was like, "Yeah, man. You saw the two greatest things on this river, and you're probably never gonna see them again. It was all in one afternoon" Yeah, so that was pretty hilarious.
Then let's see. I had another trip that was pretty interesting, had a father-son combo. The father was an older gentleman, [00:57:00.480] also very nice people. The son was kind of in his 40s, and he was kind of way more into fishing. During the day, I was trying to coach up the dad, but he was just kind of content sitting in the front of the boat. He kind of wouldn't really cast. He would just kind of sit on the front of the boat and just let his indicator and stuff just kind of drag. And I kept being like, "Sir, you know, [00:57:30.320] you're gonna have to cast and put it over into these areas that I'm telling you. Otherwise, it's gonna be hard to catch a fish." He's like, "Oh, I'll get one eventually." But, anyways, as we're going, his son is doing great. He's catching some fish and stuff. But the funny part was the dad, as soon as we'd catch the fish, the dad was the one who wanted to take the photos with it. So it looked like he caught a lot of fish.
His son's catching the fish, take the fish out, like, "Okay," and he's like, [00:58:00.460] "Okay, I get to take a photo with it first." And he would take photos of this fish. And so that happened like five, six times or whatever. And we're about three quarters away through the trip. And he's just kind of leaning on the front lean bar of my raft when I used to run a raft for a while and just dragging his indicator in the water. And he's like, "Yeah, you know, maybe I'll get one." And I said, "All right, let me [00:58:30.059] see your rig. I'm gonna try and change your flies." So I changed his flies. And I weighed it really heavy, and a little extra long. And I took it as a challenge. And what I decided to do was, if he was just going to hang it off the front of the boat and just let it drag out in front, then what I was going to do was speed the front of the boat into a hole, slow the boat down and get the bobber into a dead drift.
And I was going to fish with his rod, even though he was holding it. [00:59:00.300] So that's what I did. And I started doing it through a couple, three, four holes, maybe five. And all of a sudden, indicator goes down. Boom, he's like, "I got a fish. I got a fish." And I had done that all with just maneuvering the boat. And I proceeded to do that two more times. The guy caught a few fish. And was just like slowing boat down, letting the flies go way out in front of the boat. I get into the hole. I give it one stroke forward to let [00:59:30.119] those flies sink. And then slow it down again, and just keep it in the dead drift in places. And the guy didn't make any casts, didn't mend, didn't put in a dead drift. I was just doing it with the boat and caught some fish.
Tom: Now, how did you set the hook?
Chip: Oh, he would just watch the indicator, and then he would lift up. Like, he was kind of leaning off the front, and he could see the bobber go down. So, you know, I would scream, "So it's outside, get them or whatever." And then he'd kind of snap to attention and lift [01:00:00.139] up, and he'd set the hook. But it was really about just putting the boat and his flies in the right place so that a fish would get it because he kind of wasn't doing that part as much. But, yeah, he set the hook. He caught him. And, eventually, he landed them. But, yeah, having to use the boat in order to just land a fish that was pretty epic.
Tom: That shows you what a good guide can do, right?
Chip: [01:00:30.280] Yeah. Yeah. And that one, it kind of turned into a game for me. I was like, "I'm gonna see if I can do this." But, yeah, that's sometimes how you got to get through your day. Let's see. I got another one. I had some really, really funny guys who showed up for a trip. And so we get out, and they're like, "We fished before. We're good." And I was like, "Okay, all right. [01:01:00.800] No casting clinic needed." And so we kind of immediately get out, and we go walking and waiting just after we got off the boat ramp, and kind of walk up behind this island. And they're fishing. They're kind of catching some fish. And the one guy goes, "Dude, this is awesome. We've already caught some fish." He's like, "Just wanted to let you know, we're a pharmacy today." And I go, "Excuse me." He goes, "We brought everything. We're basically a floating pharmacy." He's like, "If you want anything, just [01:01:30.079] let me know."
And I was like, "No, man." I'm like, "I'm working, dude. I got to get this boat down. We just started, like, you guys do your thing, you know." And so they are. They're doing their thing. And they're catching fish and having fun. And we go down, and we're waiting in another spot. And so I go down to help fisherman A, and fisherman B kind of goes upstream. And I kind of don't see him. And so I'm helping the guy in A [01:02:00.019] re-tangle or tight some flies up or something. And fisherman B or the guy upstream had gone kind of on his own. And so, eventually, I kind of yell up. I was like, "Hey, let's get going." So he comes back, and these guys are already pretty deep into their pharmacy. And the guy comes back, and he crawls in the boat, and he only has one boot on. And I go, "Hey, [01:02:30.531] where did your boot go?" And he goes, "What boot?" And I go, "The boot that's missing off of your left foot."
And he goes, "Oh, man, I have no idea." I go, "How in the world are you waiting around, and you realize you don't have a boot on your foot?" He's like, "I don't know." And I was like, "Well, where'd you lose it? I got to find it." He's like, "I have no clue, Chip." He's like, "I have just no clue, man." I was like, "All right, well, we're staying in the boat the rest of the day. Like, I don't need you have bloody feet or something like that." [01:03:00.639] So, anyways, we stay in the boat the rest of the day. We fish. We finish. Those guys do their thing. Fine. The next day, I'm on a float and come around the corner kind of where we had been walking waiting the day before. And there was another fly angler on the side, and he goes, "Hey, any of you boys lose a size-10 Orvis boot?" I go, "Is it a left one?" He goes, "It [01:03:30.039] is." I go, "Oh my god." So we pull over. I grabbed the boot, and my clients are just bewildered. And I kind of tell them the story. And now that hole, I have deemed it the lost boot hole. We lost the boot. And the next day, another fly angler found it, and gave it back. And that boot is still in rotation at Breckenridge Outfitters today.
Tom: So it was a loner pair of boots.
Chip: Yeah, it was our client fleet. You know, [01:04:00.599] our fleet that we use to give clients. Back in the fleet, running strong. All right. Yeah.
Tom: Chip, tell me the worst client story ever.
Chip: Oh, Lord.
Tom: You know, I love it. He's told that. Tell me, like, the worst experience you've ever had.
Chip: [01:04:30.679] Man, I've had a few. I had one guy. It was kind of early on when I had started guiding, and he got in the boat and just was berating me. "You don't know what you're doing. I know what I'm doing. You don't know what you're doing." And as we're going down, he's tangling and stuff. And I'd be like, "You know, fish over [01:05:00.333] here to the right. And you put two drifts through there." He's like, "There's no fish in there." And I was like, "Okay, I'm telling you, like, we caught fish." He's like, "No, you don't know what you're doing. Like, okay, let's keep going." And so we had float down. And I was giving proper standoff distance. So what I call standoff distance is that distance in between the shore and the boat or wherever you're fishing so the angler can cast. And he would just every single run, "You're too far. You're too [01:05:30.082] close. Do you even know how to row a boat? This is horrible. This is horrible."
And then I'd anchor off the next hole. "Okay, let's fish this hole." And, man, he would put three drifts through there. "Nope, there's no fish in this hole. This is horrible. These flies are wrong." And just absolutely berated me. And just made me feel horrible. You know, and he just wasn't that good of an angler and just had [01:06:00.119] decided I was no good. And everything was wrong. And everything was just not going good. And I was like, "Okay, all right. Not so not so fun trip on that one." Yeah, but I've had guys put streamers in their buddy's face. And, yeah, this guy, just two years ago, put a streamer in his brother-in-law's face. I was like, "Okay, I guess I'll work on it." And the guy had [01:06:30.039] just told me he was a heart surgeon. And I was like, "Well, you're the doctor, like, do you want to help?" He's like, "No." He's like, "That's nursing stuff. You probably got this better." It was like one of these articulated circus peanuts. There's blood everywhere. The streamers stuck above this guy's sunglasses, and just blood running into this guy's eyes.
And so I'm having to like poke through the hook and blood everywhere. And I was like, "Are you sure you don't want to help?" He's like, "No, [01:07:00.179] you got it." I go, "Okay, all right. All right." And then I had one client who has become one of my best clients if she ever listens to this. But she's famous among some of us at the shop. So she comes, and she's a single female, and she can fish. She's awesome. And so she comes on this trip, and she's getting into a couple big fish. And she [01:07:30.480] she loses two really big fish. And on her third one, she says a swear word and just smashes my rod against my oar and just shatters it into pieces, just shatters it into absolute pieces. And I was like, "Holy cow, I've never seen anyone explode like that." And I just calmly reached down. I grabbed the next one. I give it to her and just start letting her fish. And at [01:08:00.900] the end, she's like, "I got questions for you." And I go, "What's that?" She goes, "I've been on plenty of guide trips. And those guys would have screamed and yelled at me." She goes, "Why didn't you scream and yell at me?"
I go, "Well, I'm kind of just trying to be a professional here. And I got extra rods. I mean, Orvis can fix this stuff for me. It's not a big deal. You know?" And she's like, "All right, well, you just earned my business because I was expecting you to fully lose it and cancel the trip." I was like, "[01:08:30.380] No, we're good. We're good." So, anyway, she's become a very loyal client. A couple years ago, she's like, "I'm gonna bring a friend." I go, "Okay, you can bring a friend. Yeah, cool. Let's go on a float trip." And she goes, "We got to talk about this real quick." So she calls me, and she goes, "Chip, here's the easiest way to explain this." She goes, "This is one of my best friends in the world. And I love her to death." And she goes, "But you know how there's like indoor cats and there's outdoor cats?" She's [01:09:00.020] like, "I'm the outdoor cat. This girl is the indoor cat." And I go, "Okay, this is going to be cool." And so, anyways, we get to the float in. And it's 7 in the morning. And this girl, she's ready to fish. She's like, "All right, here we go. You know, we're gonna go."
And this other girl hops out of the car. And I just started immediately laughing. She's carrying the Louis Vuitton handbag, short mini skirt, huge sunglasses, and two bottles of rosé wine. [01:09:30.119] And so I do the casting clinic thing. We go down. She fishes for a little bit. And she goes, "Nah, this isn't for me. I'm just gonna let my friend fish." And so the girl who's a big fisherman, she's just fishing away. And this girl just proceeds to sit in the back of the boat and just drink rosé the rest of the day and then critique other boats. She's going like, "You know, oh, that boat has some cute guides on it. Let's go over there." "No, we're fishing over [01:10:00.170] here." But it was just hilarious. She went through her wine and was just having a really funny hilarious day. Yeah, so good clients there. We had a customer...this wasn't my story, but it did happen on my trip. It was my coworker's, probably one of his worst trips.
He had a guy that was just a tough one. [01:10:30.060] And about three quarters away through the trip, the guy goes, "Where's the takeout?" And he says, "Well, it's a ways away here." And the guy goes, "I got to go out of the boat. I got to go number two, like, right now." And Keith goes, "Well, we're in a protected area. And we've got to use a plastic bag here. We can't just, like, let that go, you [01:11:00.319] know." And the guy's like, "I don't care." And so he pulls over. And so he gives them the little wag bag thing. And the guy goes off, does this thing, and comes back. And then just puts the bag in the boat. And they get to the takeout. And the guy quickly shuffles off, "Hey, thanks for the good day." Tips my friend, pretty low, and then just doesn't clean up that bag. [01:11:30.359] And there's four or five of us at the takeout. And my buddy, Keith, he's looking at us going, "Does anyone want to help me with this wag bag at the back of the boat? I just had a really rough one." And we're like, "No, nope. Sorry, buddy. That's your day, dude. That's your responsibility, bud." So, yeah, that was a tough one for him for sure.
Tom: I thought you were going to say you guys played catch with it or something.
Chip: Oh, [01:12:00.020] no. No, there was there was a few of us that were just like, "Oh, gosh, Keith, sorry for the bad day, buddy." But that guy couldn't have gotten in this car and peeled out of there quick enough. He was gone. He was gone.
Tom: Or I thought maybe that he might've saved the bag, and then, you know, it might've gotten into somebody else's boat the next day.
Chip: No.
Tom: That's what I would have done.
Chip: I can see that. [01:12:30.058] When I first started, we used to have a guy that would take... And he'd catch whitefish, and he'd row next to you, and he'd take the whitefish. He'd leave it in his boat, and he'd row up next to you. "Hey, Chip, how's your day going?" Good. And he'd take the whitefish and throw it in your boat. He's like, "It's gotten better, hasn't it?" Just have a whitefish winged at your face. Or if he made it to the takeout in front of you, he'd take and put the whitefish in the back of your pickup or something like that. He was pretty [01:13:00.100] famous for that. But no exchanging of wag bags. Yeah. Had another lady that was kind of a toughie...that you're gonna float, and her husband is floating, and she just said she wanted to sit in the back of the boat and read. Great. Okay. She's gonna sit and read. So this guy's trying his hardest. He's doing well. And she had listened to the whole casting clinic, [01:13:30.079] but anything he didn't do, she was jumping on him. "Harold, he's told you the mend. Harold, he told you how to cast like this. Why do you keep doing that?" And so she was just kind of riding him like a rented mule.
And we get down to a part, and it's a hot day, and there's lots of boaters coming down that day, just private boaters and grass, and they got their kids and dogs and some of the kids are riding in inner tubes behind the boat. And [01:14:00.100] so we're sitting in my drift boat, and she kind of chimes in, and she goes, "Chip, I want one of those inflatable tubes. Don't you think you should have one for, like, wives that just want to ride along?" I was like, "Well, no, like that kind of doesn't work. Like, see how we're at anchor here. Like, you know, we stop, and that's just not how drift boats work." And she's like, "Well, I don't think that's right. I think you should have that as an option." I was like, "It's not happening. [01:14:30.223] That's just not what we're doing." So throughout the trip, she keeps mildly bringing it up. You know, "Chip, I think you need to get one of those inner tubes." I'm like, "Hey, look, you know, it's not happening."
So trip's over. The next day... And the rest of that day, she was kind of on her husband. "You're messing this up. You're messing that up." And I was like, "Oh, man, just how about let me teach and, you know, it's okay. Like, it's just fishing. Like, this isn't [01:15:00.359] rocket science. No one's going to die here." But, anyways, trip finishes. And then the next day, she goes into the shop. And if I remember right, she sees my shop owner, and she's like, "Listen, I think you guys are wrong. And you guys need to start providing inner tubes for the wives that want to come along." And I think Tim looked at her like, "Haha, funny joke." And she's like, "No, seriously, like, you need to get them." And Tim was like, "[01:15:30.239] No, that's not happening. Not happening, ma'am. We appreciate the input. But no, that is not happening. And if you want that to happen, we're probably not the folks for you." And that's the last we saw of her.
Tom: I can see Tim smiling and trying to be polite.
Chip: Yep. Yep. Exactly. Those guys in the shop get a lot of very funny and [01:16:00.239] strange questions. And, you know, Tim's always really good at the customer service thing and trying to be very accommodating to people. But some of the questions you get, like, you can just see the wheel spinning in his head like, "How do I answer this and be tactful? How do I answer this?"
Tom: Oh, maybe I should do a podcast on questions they get in fly shops. That might be a fun one too.
Chip: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Our shop manager, [01:16:30.479] Chris Coppola, or our owner, Tim, would be phenomenal for those questions. They get some hilarious stuff in there, that we have a wall of shame of just the different rigs and stuff that come back from rental equipment, and they could tell you some stories in there. Those guys are saviors in their own right.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Fly shop owners are saints, for sure.
Chip: Yep. And [01:17:00.279] shop staffs.
Tom: Yeah, and shop staff.
Chip: Sometimes they make us look good and clean up the pieces afterwards. Yeah, one thing on that, if we still have time.
Tom: Sure.
Chip: We had an old guy, again, this was not my trip, but it was one of our old head guides. And you could kind of tell he was kind of towards the end. He was kind of getting that burnout feel. And, anyway, [01:17:30.260] so he takes these people on a walk and wait, and he's doing this walk and wait. And he tells this lady, "Okay, you're going to fish this corner. Now, don't walk into the river right here because there's some really, really, really bad mud. And she goes, "Okay." So he walks upstream, and he's putting a guy in another hole, and I think dealing with another person because I think it was a three person walking with. Anyways, he's dealing with them. And all of a sudden he hears screams for help. "Help me. Help me. Help me." [01:18:00.374] So this guy goes running back down there. And this lady is up to her knees or high thighs in like quick sinking mud.
And so this guy is like, "Oh my gosh," and he goes out there, and then he's stuck. So they're both stuck in the mud. They're both trying to wrestle out of there. And somehow, she's like, "I can't get the boots out. I can't get out of my waders." [01:18:30.220] And long story short, he apparently pulls her straight out of the waders, like unclips her waders, pulls her straight out, gets her to the side, muddy and wet. And then he kind of tugs and tugs, the boots are gone. But he gets the waders back, and they're on the side, and he kind of flips out. And he's like, "I told you not to go in there. I told you not to do this. Now, we're both wet. We're both muddy. And we got a long walk back. We [01:19:00.119] got no boots." And she's like, "But my waders, they're all muddy and everything."
And that's when this guy flipped. And he just takes the waders, and he goes, "F the waders." Takes the waders and throws them into the river. Well, the problem was why she was so worried about the waders was she had a brand new iPhone in there. And, yeah. So Mr. [01:19:30.039] Tim had to clean up that mess, buy a brand new $1,000 iPhone, apologize to those people. And that was the departure of that guide. He had had enough. He had had enough. He had had enough. So, yeah. Yeah. Lots of crazy, crazy stories from the guide world, but it is a fun job, and you get to see all of [01:20:00.000] America. You get to see some really good stuff, some really bad stuff. And I got some other really bad ones, but I think I want to think about those and see how we can taper those down for the normal public.
Tom: Well, we'll talk about it next time you and I have a couple of drinks, how's that?
Chip: Yeah, that sounds great. Sounds great. Yeah, it's a fun job. And you'd see a lot of fun and interesting stuff. Fun, fun, fun people. Heard a hilarious [01:20:30.180] line from the other person the other day. He was just having a tough day, and he looks up, and he goes, "Man, Chip, I'm just like a Dyson vacuum today." I go, "Dyson vacuum?" He goes, "All I can do is suck." But I don't know. It's one of those fun jobs. And if you get to do it, you're going to get to see a whole lot of crazy, crazy, crazy stuff.
Tom: Yeah. All right. Chip. Well, those [01:21:00.100] are some great stories, and thank you for indulging me and my listeners in your crazy stories.
Chip: And, yeah, no problem. One little shout out just at the end, because I'm kind of passionate about it. Everybody out there, trout anglers, everybody, support your local conservation groups. Even as a trout angler, you know, I support Captains for Clean Water, Bonefish and Tarpon and Trust, BTT. Those guys are doing great science and stuff. [01:21:30.579] I'm friends of the Everglades, you know, support your local TU or your local watershed groups. And for sure your local fly shops and guides. Everybody needs your helps and, and little groups like these, those $35 donations to, you know, Captains for Clean Water, BTT can go a long way.
And if you ever get to go salt water fishing and that kind of stuff, places like the Everglades are just magical. And those guides [01:22:00.140] and people that are out there doing saltwater stuff and freshwater stuff, we want to conserve our places that are beautiful and natural. And supporting places like that also supports those Everglades and keys guides, the Jason Sullivans, the Duane Bakers of the world, all of those guides down there that are working hard and trying to get you on fish and the salt. Same goes for our local, you know, TU chapters and our local watershed groups that are trying to [01:22:30.039] make these all great supportive places for all of us to enjoy.
Tom: Well, thank you, Chip. I really appreciate those sentiments, and it's nice...you know, people hear it from me a lot, but hearing it from a guide is probably even more impactful. So thank you.
Chip: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. No problem. No problem.
Tom: All right, Chip, so thanks, again. Always great talking to you, and I hope you have a [01:23:00.020] great summer, and I'll see you probably next year.
Chip: Yeah. Thanks, Tom.
Tom: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show, have a question or comment, send it to us at