How to Plan a DIY Fishing Trip, with Joe Bibbo
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer, and my guest today is Joe Bibbo. And you may not have heard of Joe because Joe hasn't written any fly fishing books. He doesn't have any videos on YouTube. [00:00:30.199] He doesn't have a blog that I know of. Joe is a fly fisher, and he has a great story to tell. He's done a lot of DIY fishing and taken a lot of DIY trips for a reason that he'll get into on the podcast. But Joe tells a great story, and he's got some really helpful tips on planning your own DIY fishing trip.
A lot of times, [00:01:00.500] people in the industry like myself talk about exotic trips that are expensive, that not a lot of people can afford. And honestly, although I do host some of these exotic trips myself, I also, when I'm fishing on my own, I'm mostly a DIY person. When I'm fishing on my own, I don't go to fancy lodges. I don't go to exotic destinations. I like to fish close to home, or I like to drive somewhere, or sometimes take [00:01:30.099] an airplane on fishing trips. I've gotten a lot of good information from the podcast, and I'm sure that if you do a lot of DIY fishing, and I do get a lot of questions from people about planning a trip, planning a trip, where to go, and how to go about it, and how to plan it, Joe's got some great tips. So hope you enjoy the podcast.
Before we do the podcast, [00:02:00.640] let's do the Fly Box. The Fly Box is where you ask me questions, or you pass along a tip, and I read them on the air. And I'm only reading them on the air today because I didn't get any good phone calls, or voice files, I should say. We don't do phone calls very often anymore. If you have a question for the podcast, you can send it to me at
The first one is from Duncan from Vermont and Boston. "New fly fishing writing. I learned to fly fish this May at an Orvis class at your flagship store. I've been binging your podcast on my weekly drives between Boston [00:03:00.199] and Vermont and really learning a lot. Thank you.
My question. I've been doing a lot of tightline nymphing with a 10-foot rod and have gotten conflicting opinions on how close to approach a target pool. I'd love your thoughts. Some suggest a max range of about 20 to 25 feet. The Troutbitten guy, Dominic, says 2 rods upstream and 1 rod across, which would be 22 feet with a 10-foot rod. The reason for this advice are to ensure [00:03:30.000] we have good control of our drift, good contact with our nymphs, and can keep our leader off the water. On the other hand, I fish with guides who advocate being much further back so the fish don't see us. I know from the laws of refraction, calculations below, that a trout that is 3 feet deep can see an object 6 feet above the water from a distance around 37 feet, ignoring the trout's blind spot."
And then Duncan goes into the [00:04:00.400] math here. "Radius of cone of vision on the surface is about 1.13 times depth, 3.4 feet if fish is 3 feet deep. Distance from edge equals 5.7 times height equals 34 feet for an object 6 feet above the water. So how do we balance these two things? As a specific example, fishing a small, steep stream that is 20 feet wide and we are approaching the fish from downstream, how close would you get? How would you vary your casting distance [00:04:30.079] with stream types and water conditions? And then how do we measure distance? Is it the length of the line to our bottom fly or the distance between us and where the flies enter the water?"
Well, Duncan, that's a good question, and I can understand where you've gotten conflicting advice on this because it depends, as most things in fly fishing do. There are no rules, and I would throw away all the math about the fish [00:05:00.040] vision stuff because that's in flat, still water, and we seldom have flat, still water unless we're fishing at a lake or a very, very slow pool. And most of us get headaches when we try to do math when we're fishing. So I wouldn't worry about the math.
In general, here are kind of some rules of thumb. If the water is really broken, if the surface is broken and there's [00:05:30.000] a lot of bubbles and swirls and little goosebumps on the water like a riffle, you can get a lot closer to fish. They don't see you as well, and they're a little bit more comfortable in the faster water because they know predators can't see them as well in that broken surface. In very slow, calm water sometimes you can't get within 50, 60 feet of a trout without scaring them, and that [00:06:00.560] can present difficulties.
Generally, when someone is tightline nymphing, you notice they're usually fishing riffled water where they can get closer to the fish. Now, the water clarity can also affect this. If the water is slightly tinged or stained, you can get a little closer to the fish. If it's muddy, you can obviously get much closer to the fish. And then [00:06:30.040] it really just varies with individual streams and individual fish. Some streams, some fish will let you get pretty close to them without being scared and running away and not eating. In some streams, they're almost impossible to approach. A lot of it depends on fishing pressure.
If there's a lot of fishing pressure on a stream, the fish get used to anglers. They seem to realize that they're not a threat, and you can get [00:07:00.019] quite a bit closer. On a stream that doesn't see a lot of fishing pressure, you have to stay a lot further away, and you have to be a lot more careful with your casting. Remember that it's motion that scares trout. It's not so much the color of the shirt you wear, it's the angle at which you approach them and how much you're waving your fly rod high above the water. Approaching [00:07:30.180] from downstream helps. The trout don't really have a blind spot because they're always moving back and forth in the current. But they don't see you as well when you're behind them because they're using their peripheral vision as opposed to the binocular vision, which is straight in front of them. So unless you make a lot of sharp movements, you can get relatively close by coming in behind a trout.
Keeping your cast low, if you can. Keeping your cast at a low angle will keep [00:08:00.120] your arm and that rod from coming into the trout's window. And again, that motion is what scares them. It's pretty tough to cast a fly rod without some fairly quick motions. So you have to try to stay low in your cast. But in general, Duncan, you really have to kind of feel your way through it. And you get into a riffle and you throw your nymphs [00:08:30.160] in there and you don't catch anything, and you might think, "Hmm, maybe I spooked them or maybe somebody was in there before." So the next time you go into that same rifle, you back off a little bit more.
And if you see trout starting to run away from you, then you know you're getting too close to them. But it's really a matter of guesswork and situations, cloudy days and [00:09:00.100] the evening, you can get closer to fish than you can on a bright sunny day. You know, you don't want to cast your shadow on the water. There's all kinds of things. You don't want to push waves in front of you when you're waiting because that'll scare trout even more than them seeing you. So it's going to vary. I can't give you any formula for how close you can get to a fish. But in general, the faster and the more bubbly the water, the closer you can [00:09:30.139] get to them.
Oh, and as far as distance is concerned, for these purposes, you generally want to say from where you're standing to where your line enters the water with tightline nymphing. That's the distance you want to think about. When people talk about the distance of a fly cast, they generally talk about from the tip of the fly rod or from where [00:10:00.120] you're standing. People have different ideas of how to measure casts, but it's to the end of the leader where the fly lands. But with tightline nymphing and approach, you want to think about where you're standing and how far away it is that that line enters the water. So you're probably more confused than you thought you'd be, but again, it's going to vary.
Here's an email from Jake from Boston. [00:10:30.379] A lot of questions from Boston today. "Obligatory thank you for all that you do. Two questions for you. Hopefully, I'm not asking a question that's been asked many times, but I'll do some digging through your old podcast episodes regardless.
Question one. Any tricks for seeing small flies in low light? I'm young and have very good eyesight, but even for me, I struggle sometimes to track my fly. Do people ever tie on a brightly colored wool indicator or something like that to ride along with a dry fly to make it easier to tell when [00:11:00.320] there's an eat? Last night, I foul-hooked a fish right after sundown because I was just setting any time there was an eat in the vicinity of where I thought my fly was. I thought my fly had been eaten, but instead I foul-hooked one right in the back.
Question two. I bought some stimulators online, hoping to have an alternative to my dry dropper. Rather than just a big hopper, I wanted something a bit more subtle. When I got them, I noticed they were wire wrapped, and it got me to thinking, is it a dual-purpose fly? [00:11:30.360] Can I fish it with some floatant as a dry fly as well as a wet fly like a nymph or an emerger? How do you fish stimulators that are wire-wrapped?"
So regarding your first question, basically, Jake, get over it. You're not going to see your small flies in low light most of the time. You can try parachute flies with a white wing. You can try some [00:12:00.159] flies with a bright pink or bright chartreuse wing. That'll help a little bit. Certain flies are easier to see. Little CDC flies and low-floating spinners are very hard to see. But you're not going to see your small flies in low light. There's no real trick to it.
One of the things you can do is to try to estimate where your fly lands. What you might want to do is go off to the side and make [00:12:30.120] a couple of... Go off the side of where you're going to fish. Make a couple hard casts where you slam your fly into the water and register where that fly hits. And then when you go back to the spot you're going to fish, you're not going to slam your fly down in the water, but you'll have a better idea of where your fly is landing. And then you may pick that little fly out.
Sometimes glare can be your friend in the evening, and the angle [00:13:00.159] at which you are looking at your fly can help. One of the things I recommend is to not wear polarized glasses in the evening. I think that glare is your friend, and you do want some sort of safety glasses or clear lenses or bright yellow lenses like shooting lenses, shooting glasses. But sometimes glare is your friend in the evening and will help your fly show up. But basically you're going to have to fish by [00:13:30.200] radar most of the time. Even on cloudy days with a small, dark fly, it's hard to see it.
Just practice, and you'll get a good feeling of where your fly is drifting. When you change your leader, you might change your leader length or your tippet length. You want to go off to the side and slam that fly down a couple of times to see where it lands because that's going to change the whole equation.
Regarding your second question, [00:14:00.100] that wire on a stimulator is used to strengthen the palmered hackle that goes through the body. And that wire doesn't add any measurable weight to the fly. It's a very fine wire. But that's there because the sharp teeth on the fish tend to cut through that palmered hackle along the body. So it's there for reinforcement. That being said, you could certainly fish a stimulator drowned or wet or even put a split shot ahead [00:14:30.120] of it. I'm not sure how well it would work because it's not really designed to be fish subsurface. But sometimes it could work. I would give it a try. But again, the wire isn't there for weighting. It's just the way the fly is tied.
Here's one from Clark. "I spent this past Saturday out on the local river near where I live in the suburbs of Chicago. This is typically a productive smallmouth fishery, and I usually have good success [00:15:00.240] in the spring. But the last two times that I have gone in July and August, I have really struggled to get a bite. How should I approach this change in seasons? The water seems to be much higher later in the summer than spring, but still wadeable. Being in Chicago, it can get warm, but I don't think it's too warm to stop the activity. Poppers, frogs, and clouds or minnows are typically successful in the spring and summer, but not at all recently. Any tips are greatly appreciated. Thank you."
Clark, [00:15:30.080] my advice to you would be to move around a lot. Generally, if there're smallmouths around, they're going to take a fly. Unless they're in really clear, still water, they're usually pretty aggressive. It's probably just a matter of finding out where they are. The season change, the water level change, the water temperature change. They're going to be in different places. I would look for them where the water might be a little cooler, where the water might be a little faster and a little [00:16:00.100] more oxygenated, because water can get too warm for smallmouth. I don't know what temperature, but it's probably into the 80s somewhere. So, I would just look in different places.
Generally, surface flies work well during the summer, but if they don't, then use your clouds or minnows. But I would cover a lot of water. I would just cover a lot of water, fish different kinds of water, and see if you can find where they've moved to. Generally, [00:16:30.620] they may be in a little bit deeper water this time of year.
Here's an email from Austin. "Thanks for taking the time to answer this question. My name is Austin, and I live up in northern Minnesota in the Lake Country. I've enjoyed the access to great warm water fisheries, but have recently found a trout stream near me that is much closer than the Driftless. The conditions of this stream are tough. Low numbers of spooky large brown trout, [00:17:00.019] clear spring fed water, lots of weeds, and lots of creek chubs.
My question is this. After June, the stream becomes a dry-fly-only stream because of how weedy this lake gets. There are lots of hatching bugs that I try to match the hatch with. Often I miss the opportunity to catch a spooky trout because of all the creek chubs in the stream. The creek chubs take the fly or smack it before the trout I'm fishing to has the opportunity to look at the fly. Do you have any suggestions for me?"
Well, there's a couple things you can try to do, Austin. [00:17:32.859] One is fish with a bigger fly and fish at night. It's going to be tough to fish a streamer with all that weed growth, but you can probably fish a mouse, maybe a weedless mouse, at night in those pockets in between the weeds. If you can see them at night, the bigger fly and the night fishing is probably going to eliminate most of your creek chubs because they [00:18:00.000] probably stay hidden at night and early in the morning because the big brown trout are out looking to eat the creek chubs.
So you might try kind of dapping a streamer into those pockets if you can get to them. You know, kind of almost dap with a longer rod, dap the streamer, and jig it through those pockets. That'll keep the creek chubs off. But they do feed on the [00:18:30.099] same stuff as trout, and you may just have to sort through them to get to the trout. You may try different kinds of water. Maybe you can find water that's a little bit faster. If you've got water with a little bit more current, that's going to sometimes eliminate some of the creek chubs. They tend to like slower water. So that's all I can say, but creek chubs are fun too. Enjoy the fishing. [00:19:00.119] They take a fly, and they fight. So maybe you should enjoy the creek chubs as well as the occasional trout.
Here's an email from Matt. "For someone who fishes small trout streams and often high sticks or dead drifts with or without an indicator, depending on the situation, would it be wise to place a permanent fixed section of cider material at the end of my fly line? Maybe a 12-inch section between fly line and leader. Are there any cons to this? [00:19:30.339] Sometimes it's hard to see the leader twitch or fly line pull with light takes. I figured this would even be okay if I wanted to throw a dry fly or a streamer as well. Thoughts on this?"
Yeah, Matt, that's a great idea. One of the problems you're going to have is that that cider material is much thinner than the butt diameter of your leader. If you put that in between the fly line [00:20:00.099] and your leader, you're going to have a big hinge in there. I would put the cider material closer out to your tippet. Maybe your last section before your tippet. I don't think that's going to spook fish very much. There's lots of debris that falls in the water, and fish can see your leader anyway. So having a little piece of cider material in there, I don't think, is a bad thing.
One [00:20:30.220] of the things you might look into is there's a waxy marker, waterproof marker material that Scientific Anglers sells that you can use to highlight your leader. And it stays on pretty well. Comes in like a little stick, and you just rub it on your leader, and it gives you an indicator. So you might try that instead of trying to tie a piece of cider material in there. [00:21:00.160] But either way, I think it's a great idea.
Here's one from Jesse from Tennessee. "I've been fly fishing for a few years now, mostly wade fishing with a few guided drift boat trips. Recently, I bought a new NRS fishing raft, and my question is, do you have any tips or recommendations for solo fishing trips in the raft? The majority of my trips will be with others, but I'm sure I'll want to take the raft out by myself [00:21:30.339] at times when my fishing partners are busy. Thanks for all you do. Take care."
So, Jesse, I don't fish from a raft very often. When I do, somebody else is rowing. So I don't have a lot of experience fishing solo in a raft. So I guess my advice would be to A, make sure you wear a life preserver because you're not going to have anybody there to help you if you fall in. [00:22:00.119] I would get one of those satellite locator devices, little Garmin locator device that you can press if you have an emergency.
And then, honestly, I wouldn't try to fish and maintain the raft in faster water. I think that fishing on your own, drifting through a slower pool is okay. [00:22:30.339] And I think that getting out of the raft and wade fishing in between spots is a good idea. But trying to manipulate the raft and fish through faster water, you're not going to be paying attention to the water ahead of you. You're not going to be able to grab the oars quickly enough. And you might run into problems. So, mainly safety considerations, but I would tend to use... If I was going to do it by myself, I would tend to use the raft for transportation [00:23:00.554] between wade fishing spots.
Here's one from Ben. "Thank you for this great podcast. I have a couple questions regarding wading in a comment on a previous episode. First, I was given a pair of stocking foot waders that date back to the early 2000s. Surprisingly, there is no water leakage, but they are entirely made of a material that might just be old neoprene. My only major issue with the waders is the feet. The material feels baggy around my feet, and I currently wear Crocs [00:23:30.474] to wade. And the combo of the Croc and the baggy material even around my socks does not feel good. Should I look for a new pair of stocking foot waders that have better fitting foot potion or stick with what I have?
Second question I have: should I switch to wading boots? If so, I do enjoy wet wading as well, so would I need a second pair of wading boots for that as well? I have a comment on an episode about getting started fly fishing with kids. I personally think that [00:24:00.420] to give kids the most opportunity to catch fish on a fly rod, kids should be taken to high alpine streams and beaver ponds, if possible, as the trout are less picky on fly selection in the creeks. You can get away with non-perfect presentation, and the fish are very beautiful and fun and small enough for young kids to learn, and land, and then hold. Curious to learn your thoughts on this."
So, Ben, regarding your comment, yeah, I think that's a good idea [00:24:30.000]. If you can find a high-altitude pond or lake, or stream where the trout are easy. But you know, trout, even in beaver ponds and in high alpine streams, are not always that easy. My advice to teaching kids to fly fish is to take them fishing for sunfish or some sort of panfish, which are much easier to catch. And they still learn how to cast and set the hook and [00:25:00.619] manipulate line and reel in line, and change flies, and all that stuff. So, yeah, if you're bound and determined to start your kids on trout, then those are good ideas.
Regarding your waders, well, first of all, neoprene waders are hot. They're generally not very comfortable, and I would really advise you to invest in a modern pair of stocking foot [00:25:30.019] waders. They're breathable. Neoprene waders will keep you warm, but you can always wear layers underneath your stocking foot waders and stay almost as warm as you would in neoprene waders. The feet in modern waders are definitely going to be better than in those older waders. In the old days, they used to just put up a tube of neoprene on the feet of them, and they weren't [00:26:00.140] anatomically correct, and they bunched up, and they weren't very comfortable. Modern waders today are made with anatomical feet with a flat bottom. They're a lot more comfortable.
Now, there's another piece of advice that I need to give you, and that is there is not a worse shoe for wading in streams than crocs. They are awful. They're dangerous. They're awful in streams. [00:26:30.000] When I first got a pair of crocs, I thought, "Oh, these would be really cool wading shoes, and I wore them once and almost killed myself." They're not good wading shoes at all. If you buy a pair of stocking foot waders and you get wading boots, which I think you should, if you want to wade wet, you can get a pair of 5-millimeter neoprene socks to wear inside your wading boots, and not only [00:27:00.039] will that take up the space that your waders did, but it will also cushion you from blisters and stones and things like that. So that's what I do. I have one-size wading boots. I wear size 10, and if I'm wet wading, I just use a pair of 5-millimeter neoprene socks.
Now, in past podcasts, I've talked about 0.5-millimeter neoprene socks or half a millimeter, and those are ones that you'd want to wear inside wet wading shoes where [00:27:30.339] you're purposely going wet wading. But if you have normal wading boots that are meant to be worn in size waders, then you want a 4- or a 5-millimeter wading sock, and you can get those... Orvis sells them, and lots of other people sell them. And they're going to make your life... Your life's going to be much more comfortable with those wading boots. You're going to not fall down in the river as much, and you're going to have a lot more fun and be a lot more comfortable on the water. [00:28:00.091]
Here's an email from Matt. They're all emails. I don't know why I'm saying that. "I'll start with the usual and say thanks to you and Orvis for all the awesome things you do for fly fishing. I look forward to new episodes each week as I work in a truck 10 to 12 hours a day and need something to keep me sane until I get back on the water. I live in the Great Lakes region in western New York, where in the fall the focus tends to go from inland [00:28:30.220] trout streams to fishing eerie Ontario tributaries for the salmon and steelhead run. I focus my attention on these big lake run fish because it's just fun to fight a big fish that pulls the line off the reel after a hot summer of mostly small trout. Although I recently did catch an 18-inch wild brown that put up quite a great fight last week.
I say all that to ask you this. On days when I want to get away from the crowds and just feel like bringing out [00:29:00.039] a 4-weight and go after local trout on smaller streams, what could I expect? What should my angle be? I've never fished for inland trout up here in late fall or winter because I've always been focused on the steelhead. I moved here about 10 years ago and taught myself how to fly fish about 8 years ago. So not a ton of experience in fishing for smaller trout in the fall and winter. With not much hatching, what is the go-to? Is it worth going after wild browns and rainbows in the fall and winter, leaving the [00:29:30.220] crowds and steelhead behind? Any thoughts on this subject would be appreciated. I look forward to hearing from you."
Well, Matt, I grew up in your part of the world. In fact, I was just there fishing a couple of those small inland streams a couple of days ago. And so I know that you do have some good inland trout streams in western New York. And you can fish all year round in New York State, so they will be open for fishing. [00:30:00.299] I don't think there's any streams that are regulated so that you can't fish them during the winter. I'm not sure. You want to check the local regulations. But it's mainly going to be a nymphing game during the winter. You can occasionally catch fish on a small streamer, but it's mainly going to be nymphs and mostly on the small size 16, 18s, and 20s, because the stuff that's active in trout streams that time of year are going to be little tiny stoneflies, midges, and some smaller mayflies.
[00:30:30.759] So it's going to be small fly, nymph fishing mainly. Egg flies sometimes will work. Same flies that you might use on the steelhead streams. And the presentation is going to be really the same that you do on your steelhead streams. Just scale down a bit. If you do indicator fish for steelhead, it's going to be the same kind of deal. You're probably going to want to find the slower, deeper pools. The fish [00:31:00.319] tend to not be in riffled water as much as they are in the spring and summertime and early fall. So they're going to be in deeper, slower water.
And again, there are lots of good streams around there. And I think if you want to get away from the crowds, it's a great idea. To find some of these good streams and some techniques, since you're in Western New York, you may want to talk to the guys at Orvis Buffalo in the fishing department. [00:31:30.079] They know their stuff, and they can probably clue you into exactly what fly patterns will work and probably even give you the names of some streams to try. I'm not going to give you any names on the air, but the guys at Orvis Buffalo can help you out there.
All right. That is the Fly Box for this week. No phone calls. So if you want to hear your voice on air [00:32:00.180], send me some phone calls. Let's go talk to Joe Bibbo about how to plan a do-it-yourself fly fishing trip.
Well, my guest today is Joe Bibbo. And I don't know... Somebody had suggested you, I think a friend of yours had suggested you as a podcast guest. And you have an interesting story and some things going on [00:32:30.000] in your life that I think a lot of people can relate to. And then we wanted to talk about, you know, do-it-yourself trips. How do you plan them? Because, honestly, it's tough for me to advise someone. I've been in the business so long, and I have such a big network that I don't really have to worry about if I'm going somewhere. Generally, I know somebody in the area that I can call and get some advice.
Joe: Yeah, you have an advantage over [inaudible 00:32:58.630].
Tom: Yeah, I do. I have a big advantage, [00:33:00.180] so it's difficult for me to relate to someone who is planning a trip on their own. So, Joe, let's start with your life. Tell us about where you are in your life and what's going on with you.
Joe: Well, the friend that you're referring to, I believe, was Harry Huntley over in Colombia. He's a member of the Saluda River Trout Fishing Group, which I'm a member of. And we've become friends over the years [00:33:30.119] and we go places and we fish. And he's said that, "Man, you got a story. You need to share this." And somehow or other, he hooked up with you. And lo and behold, here we are today and having this cool conversation, which is a highlight of my week. There's no doubt about that.
Yeah, my life right now, I'm retired. I'm a cancer survivor, and I'm still dealing with cancer. I was told several years ago [00:34:00.039], Tom, that I had terminal cancer. I've got multiple myeloma, and I decided it was time to retire. I'm 69 now, so I was younger, obviously, several years ago. And I decided it was time to do some of the things I wanted to do with regards to travel and fishing. So it was do it yourself. And to understand where that comes from, we're going back 40 years ago, Tom, [00:34:30.300] when I started to do do-it-yourself. And it wasn't so much traveling out west, but at that time, my wife, Judy, and I, we just celebrated our 40th wedding anniversary this summer. And I'll tell you a little bit about that this year. That plays into the traveling out west.
But back then, I'm living in West Virginia, of course, I trout fished and char fished in the mountains a lot. But also was very interested in walleye fishing and [00:35:00.860] northern pike and yellow perch. And of course, Ontario being just north of us, I started looking into going up into Canada for the walleye. Back then, Tom, as you recall, the way you did things back then was certainly different than the way we do it today. There was no internet, if you remember. And the way that we would [00:35:30.239] try to figure out where we were going to go and who we were going to hook up with was basically it took a half a year, many months.
And the way we would do that or I would do that is I'd find the magazines which I frequent, which was "Field and Stream" and "Outdoor Life," "Fur-Fish-Game," "The In-Fisherman." And then I would write to the tourist department of Ontario. And I'd basically send [00:36:00.940] out 25 to 30 letters about the year before that we were going to go to Canada to go fishing. And the letters would trickle in, one here, one there, couple this week, couple that week. And yeah, I'd get responses from everybody. But it was snail mail, right?
Tom: Yeah.
Joe: You'd stamp on the letter, you'd make multiple copies, and away you would go. And some of them would go to Northern Canada or to the winter homes. [00:36:30.000] Lo and behold, they come back. And of those 25 letters, I would look at it. And a lot of them had meat broasters in them and pictures in them. Of course, they're selling their camps. And I would narrow it down to five. And of those fives, I would really start making my phone calls and thinking about it and talking to the people. And then we'd make a selection sometime in the early spring and plan on where we were going [00:37:00.059] up there. Of course, we were going to another country, which was cool. You had to go through the border. And going into Canada back then, Tom, was pretty darn easy.
Tom: Yeah, I remember those days.
Joe: If you remember. Oh, it was a pleasure. You'd pull up there, and they'd ask your name, where you're from. You know, what are you going to do? Going fishing. "Oh, wish I'd go with you, eh?" And away we'd go. And we tried two or three different camps. And the reason I would do a camp, [00:37:30.039] of course, that would be a base camp. And in the base camp, we would put our essentials, and we'd take tents with us because a lot of times we'd do outposts. And we would find the outposts on our own. And it wasn't so much through Google Maps or MapQuest. It was through topo. And you recall, you would find a place, and you'd order a topo map. And you would study the heck out of the geographical, and you'd look [00:38:00.059] at the water and the trends. And then you'd sit down, whoever was at the camp, and then you would talk to them about this place and that.
But eventually we came across the little camp up there north of Sudsbury. You've been to Sudsbury, I'm sure. And then up to Timmins, Canada. And we would go up there, and we'd stop a lot of times for more than a time. We'd drive up to Toronto and hang out in Toronto. Go to a little place there and have finger foods. [00:38:30.199] That was chicken wings and potato skins. Then we would drive further north the next day, and there was a truck stop. We'd stop there, and they had gravy fries and hamburgers, and big pieces of pie. And then the next day we would be up there where we wanted to go, back in the bush.
And the camp was Spruce Shilling. It was a really neat little camp and it was owned by Scotty and Emily. And we'd gone up there for a few years. But I'd sit down with Scotty and these topographical maps. [00:39:00.079] And they got to know us, and they realized, "Hey, these folks can get back in the bush and get back out without getting lost or getting hurt." And we would fish some of the most beautiful, pristine little lakes for these daggone walleyes and just have a blast.
But then, as we say, those days have changed. And we would stop there in Toronto, and we'd buy our food there. And we'd get some of our cold snacks and cold packs. And we would spend a week, [00:39:30.000] maybe two weeks up there in the cabin and the boats, which were out numerous boats. Scotty had many boats out for portage purposes. And you'd rent a motor, and you'd maybe buy some bait and stuff like that. The rate of exchange was fantastic. And we could spend $300 American dollars and have an unbelievable week in Canada. Where can you spend $300 today and stay for a week and have boats and motors and [00:40:00.420] places to stay? It's just unheard of.
Tom: Well, the rate of exchange is still pretty good for Americans right now.
Joe: It is. You're exactly right.
Tom: Yeah.
Joe: Yeah. So now we're getting to where we're at today. So seven years ago, found out I had cancer, retired. Judy had forced me to go to Europe. We'd done a cruise on the Blue Danube River. I'd been overcultured. I came home with the shakes. [00:40:30.219] Just too much culture, too much classical music and jazz music. Castles and churches, so forth and so on. So we get in the house here. I said, "Judy, I got to do something. I got the shakes too." She said, "What are you going to do?" I said, "Well, I'm going fishing." She says, "Where are you going?" I said, "Well, I'm going to go visit our son Willie out in Hood River, Oregon." And I live in Florence, South Carolina. So that's quite a drive. And I put things together and reflected [00:41:00.219] back on the days of what it was like to go to Canada. And I came up with a game plan to start heading out west. And that's pretty much how it all started, Tom.
And then you come up with an itinerary of where I wanted to go and travel plan. Lewis and Clark Trail. I've always been fascinated with how those people went [00:41:30.260] out west and how they got there. So I decided I'd follow that trail. And the one river that I'd always wanted to really fish was the Missouri. So I started reading, and I'd seen Craig, Montana. I thought, "Oh, man, that's a cool little town." So that's where I wanted to go. So obviously I had to get there, and I had to decide what it was going to take to get there. And logistics [00:42:00.360] plays a big part of it. How, when, where. Equipment listing. I sat down with regards to equipment listing of what it was all going to take for me to drive out there.
With regards to the truck, of course, I wanted to make sure that the truck was in good shape. So I took it over to the garage, did all the things I needed to do, brought it on home [00:42:30.000] and put my equipment together. So you had your fishing equipment and all my camping equipment because I planned and I did a whole heck of a lot of camping the first few years. I started out with a little one-man tent, and it didn't last but the first year, then I went to a two-man tent. I really stepped up the next year and went to the two-man tent. And had all my cooking equipment and all my clothes, and my food.
My food [00:43:00.239] is temperature food. I put it in a cooler, obviously, but no ice. I decided that I was not going to use ice whatsoever because that's just something you got to deal with. So everything in that cooler was canned food or breads and potted meats, and pop tarts, and cake, crackers, chips. And you go to the supermarket today, Tom, and they've got [00:43:30.260] all kinds of neat packaged foods. They have the packaged foods of tuna fish and the packaged food of chicken and all those flavors. And then, of course, you get your soups that you can buy in cans or you can get the little packs of soup. So no problem with the food and chips and all those type things.
And then, of course, my personal equipment and tools. You need tools just in case, hey, you ran into problems. And I ran into a few problems over the years [00:44:00.059] after you do it so long. And the amount of time that you're going to be out there too plays into what you need in the truck. And when you drive from Florence, South Carolina, which is on one side of the country out to Hood River, you can spend a lot of time out there, Tom, fishing. And I planned on fishing in Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Utah, Oregon, and Washington my first year out. And I was able to do that.
It took a roundtrip the first year was [00:44:30.000] about 35 days from Florence to out there. And once I got out there, I did a whole heck of a lot of fishing. And the other thing I always like to do is build in a couple extra days when I'm going so that I have some spontaneous fishing trips in mind and rivers that I want to camp on. You drive it around out there. I've never been there before. You go around the bend, and you go, "Oh, my gosh, look at that river. I think I want to camp out there." [00:45:00.260] And that's what I would do. So I'd pick up the tent and just go.
As I learned over time after the first year, I really winged it that first year. And I stopped at Craig and fished there and then moved on over to Moose Creek and fished there, Blackfoot. Went to Missoula. I wanted to go there to the Grizzly Hackle Fly Fishing Store because there used to be a show on TV of fly fishing, and Grizzly Hackle featured it. Then I got out [00:45:30.079] to Hood River and went to Willie's Place, my son's, and we fished the Zigzag river. And then coming back, I stopped at Jackson and fished the Snake, the Green. Went to Casper through the Wind River Valley, and oh, what a beautiful place.
Went over to Alcova and camped down on Pete's campsite there and over the Gray's Reef. Fished the reef. And went up into the Miracle Mile and fished it, and then fished down into Fremont Canyon. [00:46:00.780] And every time you do that, you run into people, and they say, "Have you ever fished here?" And I'd say no. So the list just keeps getting bigger and bigger. It always does. And Tom, you were saying you just got so many connections, but you know I have found that the fly fishing world for serious fly fishermen is very small. It really is.
Tom: It is. It is very small.
Joe: And it's amazing. You'll go to a place that [00:46:30.639] you have no idea that you're going to run into one of your friends or a fellow that knows your friend or has fished with your friend or knows him. And it happens all the time. Yeah. It's so cool when that happens. But yeah, and it just expands from that. Some of the tools that I've learned to use, Tom, over the past couple years are basically apps or sites on the websites. [00:47:00.219] And it makes it pretty easy to find out some information like... And these here are some of the things that really helped me is like stream access by states because each state has their own rules and regulations.
Tom: Right.
Joe: And you can get in trouble.
Tom: Yeah, you can.
Joe: Landowners don't like it when you're trespassing on their property. You didn't mean it because you didn't know.
Tom: [00:47:30.000] Yeah. And the marking requirements for each state are different. So you never know. That land can be totally unmarked and it can be private.
Joe: It can be private in a heartbeat. Montana is pretty open in that regard. Theirs is a high watermark. And West Virginia was a high watermark, so I can relate. You can get in there and you can fish and you can wade down the stream, and you're not going to be in trouble. Now, you go to Wyoming, that's a different story. [00:48:00.260] If they own the property on both sides, they own the bottom of the river. Now, if you're in a boat, it's not a problem. But if you step out of that boat, or if you go wading in there, that man might come down there with a gun and say, "You're trespassing. You need to get the heck out of here." "Yes, sir."
Tom: Even if you drop an anchor?
Joe: That's right. That's exactly right. And that's why it's important to have a better understanding what those regulations are by state. And I found that site to be very, very helpful. [00:48:30.400] Another one is...
Tom: Yeah. And I should mention, Joe, that if people are interested in that, there's a link in the Orvis Learning Center to stream access by state, which is put out by Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. There's a document there that will inform people on what the riparian laws are in each state.
Joe: The other one I found is recreational.gov, which is a very helpful site. [00:49:00.119] It tells you a lot of information. Camp sites across America, across the USA. Fantastic site. You just pick a place close to where you're going to be at. You click on there, and it will show you all the campsites in that area. States, and federal sites. And on that, it'll tell you if it's an open site with regards to first come, first serve or it will tell you if you need to register [00:49:30.179] and reserve a campsite ahead of time. And usually those sites are maintained a little bit better. They have somebody at that site all during the summer that will monitor the place and take care of the place, and it just really helps to call ahead of time.
Now, if you call ahead of time and the people aren't at the site yet, they don't pick up the phone, who you end up talking to is the local Forestry Department people and the rangers in [00:50:00.099] the area. And those folks, you talk to them a little bit, usually they're local folks, and you tell them why you're there, why you're calling, why you want to be there, da, da, da. And they will be so, so helpful. They're glad to have you come out. They'll tell you about the different campsites in the area they recommend. "This is a good one. This was a family one. This one's going to be noisy. This is where the parties go on. You want to be in the mountains, where it's more quiet. This one's more..."
And then [00:50:30.219] as far as the fishing is concerned, my son Willie and I, we were going to go camping in Utah above the Green River, up in the mountains. And I got in touch with the department there, and it was early in the season. And she was so helpful. And I told her we wanted to fish small streams. We wanted to wade. And she grew up there, and that's what she did. And she got excited about it, and she started telling me about all these little neat streams up there were full big brook trout. [00:51:00.099] And we had a blast. She just kept telling us places and telling us about this one remote place. And it was really good. And she said, "By the way, we'd like if you'd keep some of the brook trout." And I always take a little bit of tin foil and some sprinkle stuff with lemon pepper and maybe some olive oil spray. And we did. We kept some of the brook trout, and they were so good. We went back the next day and we did it again.
So when I got back, [00:51:30.920] I called her up and I thanked her so much because, oh my gosh, she put us on some of the prettiest brook trout streams you could ever imagine in those mountains up there. And there was wildlife around. We got to see moose, and we got to see bears. And we actually got to see a few other animals here and there and some elk. And it was good. It was all good. And you run into that when you call those campsites across America.
The other one, Tom, that I have found out [00:52:00.059] is just my local Trout Unlimited website. And if you go to the Trout Unlimited website, I'm sure you've been on it. There's a piece in there that says, "Find a local chapter." And you click on that in the areas that you want to go fishing. And that find that local chapter will tell you the names of the president, vice president, some other board members, and stuff like that. What I've learned to do is [00:52:30.000] to write to those people over the years. "I'm Tom. I'm in Saluda River here in Florence, South Carolina, coming out to your neck of the woods. And if you could give me some information about this place or that place." And I find that those folks have been so, so helpful.
Tom: Interesting. That's a great idea.
Joe: And that you're a TU brother. They want to highlight their area, especially for us Yahoos [00:53:00.079] from out here in South Carolina that's coming out there to go trout fishing in their neck of the woods. I've had guys that's taken us to some of their honey holes, and it's just been phenomenal. And they brought food for us, and they've taken us to restaurants, and I mean, it's given a tax for their local chapters, and we've carried stuff out or we've mailed stuff out to them.
The Powder Riverbanks out in Sheridan, Wyoming was just phenomenal. They took us [00:53:30.059] up into the Bighorn Mountains, and it doesn't get much attention. And the Bighorn Mountains is a really cool place. And a lot of wildlife, some outstanding cutty fishing, and just had a big time there. And we've gone back again just because of it. Those are a couple of things real quick that I have found that has been very helpful when you're planning these trips. And this [00:54:00.039] is all in the planning stage. You do this ahead of time.
Tom: Right. Yeah. So Joe, how do you research the timing of your trips? In other words, you need to know when runoff is expected to be heavy.
Joe: You're right.
Tom: You need to know when it's going to be too cold. You need to know when the water might be too warm in [00:54:30.179] the summer.
Joe: That's the key.
Tom: So, in the planning process, how do you decide where to go and when?
Joe: My time of year is pretty consistent. I am for the last couple of weeks of June. And I'm finishing up mid-July, a little bit later in July. One year I stayed out there 45 days. But it was different. [00:55:00.139] I had planned to do things a little differently. And you're right. The cold, well, it just happens. It could snow. Like the past year, we were up on Island Park fishing the Henry's. And it was June 17, 18, 19 when we were there, and it was a snowstorm throughout the three days. I mean, it just snowed and snowed and snowed. But that part of the world, that's going to happen. You've been there. You know how that is. [00:55:30.260] And you're not that far from Yellowstone. So the climate up there has a mind of its own.
So the first day it was beautiful. We went over to Yellowstone, drove around, and had a good time. And the next couple of days it just snowed to beat the band. And the third day it cleared up. So you just have to prepare. I put clothes... When I'm driving the truck, I can throw all kinds of stuff in the back of the truck. So I take the stuff with me. Obviously, I take more than I need. The big concern [00:56:00.019] is any more, as summer comes on, especially in July, hootout. And I try to avoid it if I can. That's why I leave a little bit earlier. And yeah, you do run into some runoff here and there. But you can handle that, I think, a little bit better. You can go to a high mountain stream, a smaller stream if you wanted to fish a bigger river. And you follow the weather. You call your buddies out there, and they'll say, "No, Joe, we had a big snow. [00:56:30.360] It's going to be delayed a little bit."
Well, you put that part of your trip a little bit later into July, the beginning of July after the runoff period. It used to be July 1st was considered fishing time out west because of runoff. Well, if you get out there and the runoffs are going, there's always high mountain streams or there's tail water. And it's regulated. So you can work around that. You can't work around hootout.
Tom: No. No.
Joe: And I don't like to fish water [00:57:00.280] in the mornings that's under duress. So I stay away from those waters. You can fish it up until 12:00, and then it goes into hootout. But I'm thinking, "Man, that water temperature is not good. The fish are stressed from the first place." So I stay away from them if I can.
Tom: Yeah. You can always go higher in altitude or smaller streams...
Joe: You can.
Tom: ...to get away from the warmer water.
Joe: You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. And it helps if you can stay away from them [00:57:30.079]. Now, I understand if you plan for years and years to go out there and you want to fish that water, well, you're going to fish it, but it's going to be early in the morning and you're off of it at noon. So you're going to lose out on some of it. But that's just what happens sometimes.
The idea of where to go. Each year I come up with a little theme as to regarding what I want to do. [00:58:00.099] As it just happened, I think it was the third year, Tom. I had decided the only thing I was going to fish for was high mountain small streams and a few tailwaters. And I wanted to keep it in small water. And that was the year that the hootout had started really early. But I was in the high mountain stream, so I really wasn't affected by it just because that's what I'd planned. I didn't think that much was going to happen with regards to warm temperatures. It just worked [00:58:30.079] out that way because the previous two years things were good. But that year was just tough.
Tom: Now, you're not going to find information on these high mountain streams on the internet or Instagram, or anything else. How do you find these streams?
Joe: Well, like I was telling you earlier, being a Trout Unlimited guy, I would write to people out there, and [00:59:00.559] they would make recommendations. The other thing I do is the TU Forum, the National TU Forum. I have access to that, and I follow that. And I'll write to people on there, and I'll say, "Hey, how about some suggestions? I want to go cutty fishing." That year I really wanted to go after the cutties. And it's just amazing how much feedback you can get. A lot of times they won't share it right there on the page. They'll say, "Write to me in private, and I'll share information [00:59:30.519] with you." And that's how I learned a lot of these places. A couple of little places that particular year that I wanted to fish. The one side of the mountain I wanted to fish, the guy says, "No, cutty is not real good here, Joe. I'd expect you to go over onto the other side." So I drove down from Jackson south of there down to Alcova and fished the mountains there. And there was a little river. And I don't mind sharing this one with people.
Tom: Oh, no, don't say it. Don't say it. [01:00:00.059] Don't say it. We don't want to spot burn here.
Joe: Well said. I'll make them look it up. I'll tell you what, go to Alcova. That's all you need to do. From Alcova, you can figure it out, right? Because I want to go back there someday, but there was not many people there. I can tell you that. If I share it on the radio, there'll probably be a few more if I go back again.
Tom: Yeah, we don't want to spot-burn anybody's secret place.
Joe: But Tom, [01:00:30.000] the fishing was unbelievable. I caught so many cutties and they were nice cutties. Your average-size cutties when they're around 17, 18 inches, that's pretty good. That meant there was some on the low side, and that meant there was some on the upper side. And there were days I was out there, and I was the only person on the water. And I just couldn't believe it. It was all dry fly fishing. That was it. That was the only thing I did was put a chubby on there, and behind it I put an elk hair. And you take [01:01:00.219] one or the other, those fish were amazing.
Tom: And you found that out through a Trout Unlimited contact?
Joe: I did.
Tom: Yeah, cool.
Joe: Just a Trout Unlimited contact, talking to people. Yeah, writing to them. And then the other one was Hoback. I've fished over there in the Hoback. You got to stop at Hoback and fish some of those. I mean, the Hoback cutties is a cutty you want on your list. I went over there, and by looking through the campsites [01:01:30.420] across America, that's how I found the campsite. On both the unnamed stream and as far as the Hoback. And the Hoback's pretty neat. There's a campsite there. And I swear to gosh, there's more hummingbirds in that one place than I ever saw anywhere in my life.
Tom: Wow.
Joe: I mean, yeah, I'm sitting there in the morning. I'd get up early, a little bit before daybreak, and I'd make my cup of coffee. I got one of those tin cups. My son Max bought me one of those tin cups. It's got [01:02:00.079] the flies on it. You know, the bright blue and greens, and yellow. And I'd be sitting there, and I'd be drinking my coffee and put the cup up to my mouth, and hummingbirds would come up to that cup. And ding, ding, ding, ding. They'd be tapping that cup just like they thought it was flowers. And I mean, it's inches from my face, and it didn't bother them in the bit. That was so cool.
Tom: Yeah, that's cool.
Joe: I mean, you run into all kinds of neat stuff like that when you get back in some of these places.
Tom: Yeah. Now, Joe, how about fly... You haven't mentioned fly shops. [01:02:30.050] I'm surprised. Do you stop in the local fly shops? Do you call...
Joe: I do.
Tom: ...shops before you go?
Joe: Yep. That's on my list too, is the local fly shops. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and each place has some pretty cool fly shops when you start going out there. Casper, Ugly Bug.
Tom: Yeah. Great shop. Great shop.
Joe: Go into Ugly Bug. Yeah, great place. Idaho Falls has a fantastic fly shop [01:03:00.179] there in town. All you have to do is type in fly shop in Idaho Falls. And I just didn't know how good it was until I went down there this year. I'd driven by it before. They've got more stuff in there than you can shake...
Tom: Oh, that's Jimmy's. That's Jimmy's. It's owned by Flyfish Food now.
Joe: Yeah, that's right. It changed hands. You're absolutely right.
Tom: Great shop.
Joe: Man, what a great shop that one is. Yeah, it's good. And Jackson's got a couple neat shops in there. [inaudible 01:03:26.858] You know how Jackson is. Yeah, [01:03:30.239] you run into these really neat shops and talk to people, and they'll share information with you. They'll want to sell you a bunch of flies. You know how that is.
Tom: Well, you better buy some flies. You're getting information. You need to make a purchase, right?
Joe: You better buy them. And usually, you buy them, and then they give you the information for it. When I go out there, Tom, I tie flies. So I try to find out what flies are in the area. And I'll take 3,642 flies with me [01:04:00.000], but it's never the right one.
Tom: I know this story.
Joe: And that's okay. That's part of that, you know? And then I'll show somebody this and show them, "Oh, that's a cool fly." But it's not what you need. You don't have what we need. That's all part of it. And so the next year I've got that fly, but then I go back again, and of course, the fly changed from one year to the next. [01:04:30.960] But there are some standard flies that just work one year to the next, stuff like the Adams and the elk hair, and there's just some. And in the nymphing world, if you like to do your nymphing in the high stick... I like to high stick more than I do use an indicator, but I'll do that occasionally. But that's all the stuff that you package and you put together.
Yeah. Some of the other stuff beside my equipment is my truck. Getting my truck ready. [01:05:00.519] I love to listen to music. Obviously, you're driving from here to there. And I drive from here. I visit my son, Max, who lives in Woodstock. I take the southern route, and I'm heading out through Memphis, then Little Rock, Oklahoma City, Wichita, Orlando, and over into Denver. So I'm traveling South Carolina, Georgia, Atlanta, Mississippi, Tennessee, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Kansas City, Kansas, and then out to Denver. And then when I get up to [01:05:30.039] Wyoming, sometimes I'll stop there in Casper and go to the Bug, then go on over to Alcova and fish that area. Or some years I might go up to Montana and start at Fort Smith and mark my way across the state, and then head on over to Idaho and roundabout and then come back through. I mean, it just depends on which route I want to take. The high route once I get out west or the lower route.
And I've chosen to go the southern route [01:06:00.300] rather than St. Louis and up through there. I did that one or two years, but I like the southern route. And then once I leave Max's, I plan a 9, 10-hour day driving. And then I just pick up MapQuest, and I'll say, "Okay, from Max's place there in Woodstock, I can put 9, 10 hours like at Fort Smith, it's where I might end up when I'm going out there. And then from Fort Smith, and that's in, I think, Arkansas. [01:06:30.099] And from there, another 10 hours. And by the third day, I'm either in Wyoming or I'm in Montana, where I start my fishing. And I put my camp up and then see what the water's like and start flashing and playing around.
Tom: Now, Joe, do you ever hire a guide when you're... I mean, you're obviously on a DIY trip? But do you ever break down and hire a guide?
Joe: [01:07:00.059] I do. And you wade these waters, and some waters are meant to be waded. Obviously, the smaller screen and some of the bigger ones. But you'll get to some of these places, and the water just looks absolutely fantastic. And you say, I want to learn this river. And I think there's no better way to learn the river than to get with a guide that knows the river for one thing and get in a boat and then float it. [01:07:30.099] And you can learn a lot about that river. And obviously, you can see where you can gain access to it by doing that. And you can come back the next day or a couple of days later and you can fish some places that you hadn't even thought about fishing before. And you're not far from your campsite. So there's benefits, obviously. And then, again, there's benefits with regards to fishing while you're floating. You can obviously do a little bit more of this and a little bit more of that. And then you learn about the area. And the conversation [01:08:00.519] with your guide is fantastic. "Hey, you know, where do you eat?"
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Joe: Yeah, you learn. You just learn.
Tom: And you learn new techniques. You learn some new techniques that you might not have employed in that river.
Joe: Absolutely. Yeah, because East Coast fly fishing for trout is different than West Coast fly fishing. We're into little stuff. They're into big stuff out there. You're using 12, 14, 16s. Where back here we're using 18s and 20s. [01:08:30.119] So the same type of thing. And it makes a difference. And then you'll see that in the nymph fishing. You know, here is one, two, out there that they'll use the indicators that you're floating down. Bulber fishing, as my son calls it. And it is. It has its benefits. You want to catch fish. You know, you're going to catch it. There's no doubt. There's a higher percentage of fish feeding on nymphs than there are on drys. And when I go out as early as I do, there's hatches going on in a lot of places, Tom. But once it heats up, [01:09:00.159] then, of course, then you switch over to side casting and those kinds of things, which is pretty cool.
Yep. Another reason I'd use guides is this year I was telling you celebrated my 40th wedding anniversary. And several months ago I said, "Judy, let's get out of town here. Let's go do something on our own." I said, "What do you want to do?" Well, she says, "I want to be on a river fly fishing."
Tom: Whoa. No wonder you've been married for 40 years. [01:09:30.039]
Joe: Exactly. She's quite keen. She's quite keen at fishing. She's good at it. And I said, "Yeah." I said, "We can do that." So an hour later, I made arrangements to go out to the Henry's Fork there in Island Park. And I went to one of the lodges out there, and they had availability. And so we ended up out there in Idaho Falls on our wedding anniversary and had a big time out there. Of course, the snowstorms [01:10:00.460] were challenging, but the fishing was still good. And that was three days of guided fishing. And which was great. That's what he wanted to do. Mama was happy, and I was too. We had a big time. And then from there, we drove over to our son Willie's there in Hood River. And Willie has a beautiful drift boat, a pontoon-like boat. And we fished the John Day, which is a really unique river in Oregon. [01:10:30.300] It's full of smallmouth bass. And you can catch more smallmouth bass, you can imagine. Which is cool. You know, you're in the desert out there, Tom. Have you fished the John Day?
Tom: I have not. No, I have not.
Joe: Lower section, steelhead. Upper section, smallmouth bass. How? I don't know. It's just full of them. As a matter of fact, we were changing flies, trying to find a fly we couldn't catch a bass on.
Tom: That's a good problem to have.
Joe: [01:11:00.359] That's a great problem. And then the next day we fished the Deschutes, which it's a cool river. It just has all kinds of neat fish in it.
Tom: Yeah, that's one I've never fished either, and it's on my list. I really want to fish the Deschutes.
Joe: They're red band trout, right? You want to get to the red band trout, and they're beautiful. They're absolutely beautiful fish. So yeah, it's just pretty neat stuff when you can get out there and find, like you said, some of these unique [01:11:30.159] rivers, and there are so many of them to fish.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Hey, Joe, before I let you go, I wanted to ask you a couple questions. I wanted to dig into a couple things that you mentioned. One is you said that you often have themes on your DIY trip, like you had a cutthroat theme. Tell me some of the other themes. I guess you might have had a historical trip where you followed the Lewis and Clark Trail.
Joe: [01:12:00.039] That's exactly right. Yeah. You know, each year, like this past year, the first few years, it was really on my own. I was in the truck. I was camping. I was going here and there. And then, as people found out what I was doing, they said, "Joe, can I go with you?" I've had one friend go with me. And then other people would be out there. They'd fly out there, and they'd meet me out there because they don't have that much time. Like Judy, [01:12:30.399] she has a week and she'll fly out there and I'll pick her up somewhere. We'll spend the week together or some of my buddies. So some of my themes that sort of changed, especially the past year. I guess this past year was about family, friendship, and fellowship. And it was based around that. So not so much camping. A lot of people don't like the foods that I eat when I'm camping. But my favorite thing, which is Spam [01:13:00.479] and my favorite dessert is a pop tart.
Tom: Health food. Nothing but health food for you, Joe.
Joe: Oh, my gosh. They said, "No, we don't want anything to do with that, Joe." So, a little bit more of being in towns and motels. And you can find the motels, and you check to determine how much you want to put into a motel. And then did a little bit [01:13:30.060] more guide fishing this past year.
One of the places I like to fish is Twin Bridges. It's a great place. And there's a shop there on Four Rivers, Fly Fishing Outfitters, Steph McLean and Chris McLean. That shop's been around forever. Steph, his dad is actually in competition with you. I think he's one of the Wilson guys that actually puts together [01:14:00.960] or makes the Bamboo Fly Rods. He's done that forever. And you may know that shop there of Four Rivers. Great guys. So I make a point of always stopping there in Twin Bridges. Dillon's close by, and Adler's where I would camp out. Get over to Alcova, and I fish there. Pete's campsite, little cowboy drifters are the guys I hooked up with there. Craig, there's just what, [01:14:30.039] three or four different shops there, and there's hundreds of people [crosstalk 01:14:32.985].
Tom: It's all there is in Craig is a restaurant, a bar, and three fly shops.
Joe: Yeah, that's right.
Tom: But there's hundreds of people there, right, during the season.
Joe: Yeah. And the season's over. I was in the one place eating one day and I'd been camping out up at the dam. And you know where I'm talking about at the headwaters there, and I camped out. And I'd been camping out for a couple weeks. So, I'm a little ragged. I said, "Man, I got to get cleaned up here." [01:15:00.739] So, I went into town there in the trout shop, and they got a little place there where they could get some rooms and got a little place to eat something. I went down there, and the special was barbecue and chicken.
So, the young girl comes up to me, and she says, "Sir, what would you like?" I said, "I'd like to have yard bird." And she looked at me, and she says, "Oh, sir, we don't have yardbird on the menu." And I said, "Well, yes you do." I said, "No, you think about it. It's a bird that's out in the yard, and it's eating, and people [01:15:30.380] will pluck it and then they serve it." She says, "You're talking about a chicken?" And I said, "Yeah." I said, "I want yard bird." And there was a guy sitting beside. He was laughing just as hard as he could. And he left. And he looked at me, and he says, "Where are you from?" I said, "From Florence, South Carolina." He says, "I haven't heard yardbird for a long time." And it turned out he was the local mechanic. He said, "You know, when all you people leave, there's 29 of us left in the town of Craig." It goes from one [01:16:00.039] extreme to the other.
Yeah. The thing is what you make it. What do you want to do? One year I wanted to do Yellow Stone. So, things evolved to wherever I was at, I was going to go to Yellowstone. And that was going to be the center point. And where I wanted to be in Yellowstone was Little Marr Valley, which is beautiful. We fished the Soda Butte. We fished the Little Marr and the Sloth. We hiked up in there to the second meadow, [01:16:30.220] fourth meadow, second meadow. And we caught so many cutties. Oh, my gosh. What a neat place. And the animals are just all around the basin. You can't help. You have to walk through the basin sometimes to get to the Soda Butte. But you're careful. You respect them. You don't get around the calves, that's for sure.
Tom: Yeah.
Joe: The fish [inaudible 01:16:49.861]. See, that's sort of how I pick my theme. And then, from the theme, like I said, I go to my itinerary, and then I start planning around it.
Tom: [01:17:00.020] Planning is the key. So and the one last question I have for you, Joe, is mistakes that you've made and what my listeners can learn from the mistakes you've made.
Joe: Tents collapse. Yeah, they do. One-man tents and two-man tents, they collapse. The storm will hit, and things will fall and things break and they collapse. [01:17:30.260] Like I was telling you, this no-name creek I was fishing one day and just having a beautiful morning. Went back to the tent, found my campsite, decided I was going to eat lunch, and then I was going to go back out again. And actually it was cold enough up there that I'd been wearing my... I wasn't wet wading, which I do a lot of. And then I have some hip waders, which I'll use if I'm going through high grassy areas and stuff like that, keep the critters off. But I had my chest waders on.
[01:18:00.199] So I'm working up the stream, and all of a sudden the temperature dropped, and then the mountains were high enough up there, you don't get a long view. And I could hear the thunder coming, and I was away from the truck. And I started working my way back to the truck, and the rain's coming. And I said, man, I got to get going. I don't want to get sopping, soaking wet. And of course I'm getting up out of the water, and I start up the hill, and my back foot didn't quite catch [01:18:30.340] the way it should have. And the next thing I know is I'm falling back. So I hit the water. Of course, I got my pole up in the air. And Tom, when I stood up, I didn't have to worry about the rain. I was sopping, soaking wet. And of course my waders were full of water.
And the next time I went up the hill, no problem. And I got to the truck, you know it was just pouring down with rain. So I need to get out of the waders. And I got out [01:19:00.140] of the waders, and I was just sopping wet head to toe. And I get back to the camp, and yeah, that was one of those moments where the tent collapsed. And I'm looking at my tent, and of course that's why I take, you know, other stuff with me. You know, I take gorilla tape, and I'll take some wires and this and that and some extra cord. And so I'm sitting there, and I said, "I got to fix this tent so I have something to sleep in." And lo and behold, I got it together. It wasn't pretty [01:19:30.119], but at least I had a place to sleep that night.
And earlier I'd eaten those beans along with peanut butter and jelly sandwich and I got everything together, and I'll be darned, those beans set in. So it was one thing right after the other, and it was just one of those days. Thank goodness. Those days are so far and few between. And I can remember that one vividly, though. That was just one of those things. And I take [01:20:00.319] a portable pump with me because you don't know what you're going to run into. And of course my tires. When I go over to the garage to get my tires rotated, get them checked real good, I make sure they pull that spare out and they check it real good. And a lot of guys forget about the spare. If you got a count on it and there's no air in it, that's not a good thing. That can make it rough.
And taking those different...a shovel, a rake, [01:20:30.000] a few things like that to throw in the truck is no big deal. But it goes in the truck. Some extra oil, some coolant, things like that. Yeah. I put it in there just in case. If it's going to happen and you're going to be somewhere where you don't want it to happen. And AAA. I'm a member of AAA. Had a blowout. It was close enough to Helena. Called them up. AAA came out and helped me out. So, those type [01:21:00.079] of little things can go a long way.
Tom: Yeah. How about mistakes in planning? Have you ever planned and realized, "Oh, this was a mistake to try to go here at this time of year or whatever?"
Joe: No, no, I've been pretty fortunate. I guess just one of those things I'm knocking on wood because now that I say that, it'll happen to me next year. I'll have to dangle on Tom. I'm going to blame this on him. [01:21:30.060] But I have it. If I get to a place and that's one of the neat things about out west, it's so big. You can always go somewhere else.
Tom: You need a plan B, right? You always need a plan B.
Joe: Always. Always. Yeah, that flexibility just helps out a lot.
Tom: Yeah. And that's a nice thing with a DIY trip. You got no agenda, right? So you can.
Joe: Well, this year was different. I'd never fished Colorado. This was the first year I fished Colorado. And the reason I went to Colorado this year was [01:22:00.000] I met a fellow by the name of Mike Liam down in Mexico this spring. We were down there, North Cancun, fishing. And he heard that I come out west. He says, "Joe," he says, "When are you going to be coming back home or when do you want to come? Can you hook up with me?" So I did. And as it turned out on my way back after fishing, I headed down to Colorado from Wyoming and hooked up with Mike. And he took me to some pretty nice holes to South Platte and a couple other, Eagle River, and a couple [01:22:30.100] small streams.
I'd caught three different species of cutties up until then. And then, of course, you get to Colorado, you get the greenback. And lo and behold, I caught a greenback. So I had four different species of cutties in under 35 days, which, man, I was pretty proud of that.
Tom: Oh, that's cool.
Joe: And then on that Friday night, we went over to Red Rock and listened to a concert. How cool, huh? I mean, what a venue. What a venue. Yeah. Pretty neat stuff. [01:23:00.199] Pretty neat stuff. And you just got to be willing to do it. Take that next step, back the truck out of the driveway, and go. Put some music on and get it. That's what I love to do.
Tom: Well, Joe, I want to thank you. It's been a great and a fun podcast. And I'm sure you've given a lot of valuable tips to my listeners. And I think that you and I should do another podcast on gourmet food, because it sounds like [01:23:30.000] you're an expert in that. And we should really do a gourmet meal while you're fishing podcast.
Joe: I don't think people would appreciate my gourmet. I'm telling you.
Tom: You have the palette of Lefty Cray, who is famous for eating peanut butter and jelly.
Joe: That's it. Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. At 3:00 a.m. in the morning, peanut butter and jelly in the evening. I guarantee you it's going to happen. [01:24:00.319] Absolutely, Tom. Well, it's been an honor to get to speak with you. I think I actually saw you fishing one time. Do you ever go for false avocore [SP] off the coast of North Carolina?
Tom: I have only been once. And I would have been recognizable because, amidst all the other boats, I went with a buddy who trailered a little tin boat down there. And we went offshore in this little tin boat.
Joe: It was you. Yeah, I thought that [01:24:30.020] was you. I was telling my buddies. I'm out there with Justin and he's our guide and another. So I said, "That's Tom over there." And before I could yell at you, Justin says, "There's the birds," and then I have to run and go. He said, "Hold on," and away we went.
Tom: That was me. Must have been. That must have been 12, 14 years ago, maybe. It was a while ago.
Joe: That would probably be right. That would probably be right.
Tom: Yeah. Funny. Funny.
Joe: That was as close as I got to yelling at [01:25:00.239] you other than getting to having the honor of sitting down here today and sharing my fishing stories with you.
Tom: Well, it's been great. And I hope we do get to fish together someday somewhere.
Joe: I would really look forward to that. That would be wonderful, Tom. Thank you, sir.
Tom: All right, Joe. Well, you have been a great guest, and thank you so much.
Joe: Thank you.
Tom: All right.
Joe: Have a great day, sir.
Tom: You too. Bye-bye.
Man: Thanks for listening to the Orvis fly fishing podcast with Tom Rosenbauer. [01:25:30.020] You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment. Send it to us at