What's it like to run a fishing lodge? With Tim and Joanne Linehan
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer, and my guests this week are my good friends, Tim and Joanne Linehan, who are just perhaps two of the finest people in the world, the most kind, generous, intelligent. They're just [00:00:30.019] amazing. If you know anybody that's ever come in contact with the Linehans, you'll hear the same thing from nearly everybody. But they have owned a lodge in northern Montana for many years, and it's one of the most famous lodges in Montana.
And I wanted to talk to them about how they got started in the lodge business and what it's like running a lodge as a couple. And then, you know, what are some of [00:01:00.140] the great pleasures of running a lodge, and then what are some of the pitfalls? I know that there are lots of us who have dreamed of owning or running a fishing lodge. And so I think this will be interesting to find out what goes on behind the scenes and how these things get started. So I hope you'll enjoy my conversation with Tim and Joanne.
But before we talk to Tim and Joanne, let's do the fly box. And [00:01:30.099] the fly box is where you ask me questions or you share some tips, and I try to answer your questions or share your tips with other listeners. This is what makes this podcast so much fun is the interaction with you and the great questions I get. It also helps me plan podcasts because by listening to your questions, I know what you're looking for and I know what kind of questions you're going to ask. So it's really helpful for me and I [00:02:00.200] really appreciate all the questions and tips that I get in the podcast.
So you want to participate in this? Just send me an email at
Let's start with an email this week from Brandon from Tulsa. "I've been fly [00:02:30.020] fishing for less than a year and on a recent family vacation had the opportunity for some limited fishing on the San Miguel River near Telluride, Colorado, and the Rio Chama in northern New Mexico. The rivers were beautiful, but recent rains and rock slides in the area made both rivers very silty, even muddy. I spent several hours trying my best, but had no luck, no bites, and no visual indicators that fish were present, which would be difficult when you can't see the bottom of the river, even in shallow sections. [00:03:00.099] Do you have any tips for fishing silty, muddy rivers, or is it simply a waste of time?"
Well, Brandon, you know, sometimes it is a waste of time in my experience. Sometimes the river is just too muddy for decent fishing, but if you're there and you want to try, you might as well. You may learn something. You may learn how to fish a muddy river. Some of the things that I've learned over the years, first of all, if the visibility is less than [00:03:30.340] an inch or so, it's going to be pretty tough because the fish just aren't going to be able to see your flies.
So this is a situation where nymph fishing may not be the most productive way of fishing because the fish are probably going to sense your fly by the disturbance it creates, which gets picked up as vibration by the fish's lateral line. So, you know, in that case, if you want to catch a fish's attention, [00:04:00.439] probably one of the best things to do is to fish a black streamer, relatively large, you know, not terribly small, but, you know, a couple of inches in length or greater, 2, 3, 4, 5, or even 6 inches long, depending on how big the fish are in the river. And then black is usually the best color, is the most visible in this kind of water.
And then something with kind of a wide head on it, like a deer hair head or a sculpin head or a [00:04:30.180] wool head, something that creates some vibration in the water, and even some palmered hackle along the side, like you'd see in a woolly bugger, but something that creates some swirls and disturbance in the water that the fish may pick up with their lateral line. And you don't want to fish it too fast because you need the fish to be able to track your fly.
That being said, you could try nymphs. I would try bigger nymphs because, you know, you want [00:05:00.180] something that the fish are going to be able to see underwater. So you can try nymphs, although if the water is muddy, there's probably a lot of debris floating in the river and, you know, the fish are having to sort out their food from all that debris and they're more likely to grab something that's moving contrary to all that drifting junk. So that's why an active streamer might work a little bit better.
And, you know, sometimes it's surprising when you see [00:05:30.240] really dirty water like that. Sometimes the fish will move in really shallow and actually feed on the surface in slower water. It's amazing that they can see that food on the surface, but it's easier for them to see something on the surface than it is a subsurface fly like a nymph. So, you know, you may look at some of the shallow margins, especially in slower water, and look for rising fish.
Now the one thing I've found in really dirty water like this is that if the [00:06:00.279] sun is shining brightly, it really turns things off. And if the water is real dirty, surprisingly, the fishing seems to be better when it's cloudy or dark. And I think that maybe the sunlight kind of acts like a fog and headlights issue where everything gets diffused and dispersed and so the fish have trouble spotting things. Anyway, that's what I know. It's never easy fishing dirty water like that but it's also... [00:06:30.312] You never want to give up, and you may discover some way to fish that water.
Now let's do another email. I'm not gonna do a phone call yet because I only have two of them this week. Let's do an email from David from Charleston, North Carolina. "I'm behind on your podcast episodes. I listen to them while I drive to go trout fishing and it's been six weeks, obviously. So the last one I heard yesterday after being skunked on some little streams in the Pisgah [00:07:00.019] National Forest here in North Carolina, I didn't expect much, so I wasn't that disappointed. The episode was the one with Jason Randall about how trout hear and smell.
I have two anecdotes to share that I think support the idea that smell is important, although it's not what fly anglers rely on to catch fish. One is a result of my being curious about the Pay 2 Play carp ponds we have here in the Carolinas. A regional oddity is basically a competition to catch carp [00:07:30.139] that involves weight. There's money involved. The key to doing well is your proprietary mix of feedstuff with the right juice to make feed balls.
Carp are apparently connoisseurs of flavor. In fact, there is a store in Lincolnton, North Carolina called Carp Juice and that's what they sell. I've attached a link to the article from Bassmasters on the subject should you be interested." Actually, I'm not interested. "Secondly, [00:08:00.420] I've been teaching my grandkids to fish. I hope I have better luck with them than I had with my own.
Well aware of the shortened attention span that I'm working with, I wanted to make sure that they would catch something. As they say, 'The tug is the drug.' I have a pond with bluegill and bass that abuts my condo complex, so no need to blue dot. Now, I also know that the chances of these kids being careful with relatively expensive equipment with moving parts and really loving fishing was iffy. [00:08:30.019] So we were fishing with inexpensive 10-foot Tenkara rods and Mop flies.
Mop flies by themselves work occasionally, but when you stick a piece of fishy-smelling power bait on them, it's a sure thing. I'm hoping, given time, I can wean them off the power bait out of personal preference. These are warm-water species, obviously, and trout are cold-water, so I wonder if smell is generally more important to warm-water fish than cold-water fish."
So, David, I think the difference is maybe twofold. First [00:09:00.080] of all, carp, panfish, and bass probably use their sense of smell more than trout do. And secondly, you're talking about still water versus moving water. And in moving water, there's like an aura or a scent trail that's going to be built up around a scented bait, right? But if you're throwing it in moving water, it's going to quickly dissipate.
And trout don't zero in on smell in moving water. They [00:09:30.360] can't. It wouldn't be very efficient. So they're basically visual feeders, or they use their lateral line, of course. But in still water, that scent can radiate out from the bait, and it's not going to get washed away by the current. And fish can zero in on smell. So I think it's partially the difference between moving water and slow water and also how the species use their sense of smell. [00:10:00.820] That's my theory anyways.
Wyatt: Hi, Tom. I've been fly fishing since this spring. And the one thing I'm still kind of struggling to get the hang of is when I make a longer cast, my line is straight for a few yards, then starts to go wobbly and then ends up curling in on itself. It ends up in circles right where it meets my leader. And I'm not sure if this is because it's a [00:10:30.259] semi-used fly rod and reel, and the line had been on the reel for a number of years, or if it's that my leaders are kind of cheap, or if it's just that I'm not good at casting yet. So let me know if you have any advice for this.
Tom: Well, Wyatt, I'm going to see if I can try to help you. Not actually seeing what you're doing is difficult to analyze. And hopefully, if I [00:11:00.720] could watch you casting, I might be able to figure out easier. But here's a couple of things to think about. First of all, do you have the right fly line on that rod? You said it's an older rod. And certainly, a used rod or an older rod, there shouldn't be anything wrong with it. It should still cast fine unless it's an old bamboo rod. But if it's an old fiberglass or graphite rod, it's probably not the rod that's the problem. [00:11:30.759]
The line could have been on the reel for too long. And an easy way to fix this is to just take the line and stretch it. Have a friend hold it, and then you run some of the line off. Probably 40 or 50 feet is all you need to do. And then just pull pretty hard on it and stretch the line. That should take a lot of the memory out of the line. Or if you don't have anybody handy, you can stick your fly line on a nail or something, around a screw or something, and then just...something [00:12:00.769] that's fixed, and then just pull on it. Or you can take hanks of line from the reel and pull them between your hands bit by bit. You should be able to take those kinks out of it.
But I have a feeling it's probably not your leader or your line or your rod. It's probably your casting technique. And the first thing that comes to mind is that when you're having a curl at the end of your fly line, it's generally because [00:12:30.220] you have a curl in the path of your fly rod when you're casting. So one of the things you want to look for when you're practicing your casting is, is your rod tip going back and forth or up and down in a straight line? So you make a back cast and you bring the fly rod up to that, just past the vertical point, and then you slice back down through that same plane so your rod stays in a straight line. [00:13:00.600]
A lot of times when people are newer at casting, they tend to curl the fly rod around the back of their head. And so the fly rod is moving in an arc instead of in a straight line when you come forward. And your fly line is going to follow the path of the rod. So it's going to form a curl in front of you. So that's one thing that can be happening. So check and see if your fly rod is moving back and forth in a straight line. And this straight line can be straight overhead. [00:13:30.480] It can be angled at 45 degrees, or it can be angled at actually 90 degrees, but you still want the fly rod to go back and forth in the same plane. That's probably the biggest problem.
The other thing is sometimes you can get a curl in the line by either overpowering or underpowering your cast. In fact, that's the way some people make curve casts when they want to make a curve on purpose. [00:14:00.000] They overpower or underpower the rod. So I think that maybe a casting lesson, go to a fly shop and maybe ask somebody to look at your fly casting, or go to the Orvis Learning Center and watch some of Pete Kutzer's basic fly casting techniques. May show you what you're doing.
And I think it is probably something that you're doing in your casting and not the equipment you have. So check it out and try to analyze it yourself. Maybe take a [00:14:30.270] video of yourself with a cell phone from behind and see if that rod is curling around your body and see if that helps. I hope it does.
Here's an email from David. "Not necessarily a relevant podcast subject, but an interesting observation finding that may be of interest to those who study trout behavior in their movement in a stream. One morning I caught a large and healthy 20-inch-plus rainbow nymphing a prime lie created by water flowing over and around a large boulder [00:15:00.100] at the head of a very good run at the 3-mile Bighorn River access near Fort Smith, Montana. Waiting was difficult and the large fish was quickly about 100 yards downstream where it broke off.
Later that afternoon on the way back in, I fished the same prime lie again and caught the same fish which had returned to its lair from 100 yards downstream, surprising to me, after breaking off. He was kind enough to let me have my fly back. The fly was my tie, so the fish identification [00:15:30.878] was not in question. If this information is helpful to someone, I would really enjoy knowing."
Well, David, it's certainly helpful to me. You often wonder, you know, sometimes if you're in a drift boat and you catch a big fish and you have floated downstream a ways before you release the fish, does it go back into its former lie or does it find a new one? It sounds like they're probably able to find their way back to their old lie. So that's good to know. [00:16:00.259]
I've had this similar thing happen to me on the Madison River. I remember one day on a fairly large cutbow, I broke a fish off and got my fly back later in the day. Same fish, different fly though. So it does happen, and that's cool knowing that if a fish is caught in the morning, it might be possible to catch it again in the afternoon.
Here's an email from Scooter. "Quick question. I was wondering if you could get some recommendations [00:16:30.279] when choosing a fly rod for a kid. I have a 6-year-old, almost 7 son who is interested in starting to fly fish. My initial thoughts are that my 6 and 7-weight, both 9 foot, are too large. Any tips?"
Well, Scooter, I'm not sure if your 6 and your 7-weight are too large for a 6-year-old kid. Those rods probably only weigh between 2 and 3 ounces. That's not much. I think a 6-year-old kid can handle a rod of that weight. A lot of times [00:17:00.259] people get really short stunt rods for kids. Those shorter rods are harder to cast. It's harder to learn how to cast on a shorter rod. So I would start with your 6-weight probably because it is a little lighter. I'd start with your 6-weight. But I think a 6 or 7-year-old kid can handle a 6-weight rod. That way you don't have to go out and buy a new rod. Certainly, you don't want to saddle your kid with [00:17:30.160] a real short stunt rod.
The other option which is great for teaching kids fly fishing is a Tenkara Rod because casting motions with a Tenkara Rod are very similar, but there's no line handling and no reel to complicate things. So the kids learn how to use the rod and how to hook fish and land fish without having to worry about the line and reeling in line or anything like that. So those are a couple of options, but [00:18:00.000] I wouldn't worry about it. I think your 6-weight rod is going to be just fine.
Here's an email from Bob from Allentown, New Jersey. "Thank you for your podcast and all your instructional videos and books. They've been a huge help to me as I've gotten into and grown to love fly fishing. I have a comment or two and two questions about dry fly fishing. I've been fly fishing for several years now. The vast majority of time I have nymph fish either tight lining or with an indicator. The principal reason I rarely [00:18:30.848] fish dry flies is that I almost never see fish rising in my home waters and thought dry fly fishing would be unproductive if I didn't see any risers.
I recently discovered, however, that that is not necessarily the case, and have been catching eager trout on dries even when I didn't see them rising. I absolutely love seeing the takes and understand how people can grow to become dry fly-only purists. So my comment is to encourage people to try prospecting with dry flies even [00:19:00.240] when fish aren't rising. Otherwise, you'll be missing out on some fantastic opportunities to have a lot of fun. Of course, it's still pretty phenomenal to catch trout on nymphs.
And I have two questions, one about gear, and one about tactics. As for gear, should I switch leaders and fish with a nylon leader and tippet when fishing dry flies? I've always used fluorocarbon leaders and tippets as I understand that they are more durable than nylon ones and work better for nymphing. But I also understand that nylon generally works [00:19:30.160] better for dry fly fishing.
My question is, how much better and when is it worth the time to swap out nylon for the fluorocarbon I typically use? I have not switched leaders or tippet for the dry fly fishing I've done recently and it has worked okay. The biggest problem I've noticed is that the heavier butt section of the fluorocarbon leader tends to sink at the very end of the fly line and get caught up on shallow rocks, etc. Will that not happen with nylon? What are other advantages of nylon versus fluoro for dry fly fishing? [00:20:00.299]
If I'm planning to fish both dry flies and nymphs on the same day, what do you recommend? That is, when is it worth swapping back and forth between the two, and if I don't want to swap, is one better as the all-purpose leader tippet than the other? Would using a nylon leader to a tippet ring and then using a fluorocarbon tippet negatively impact times when I would be nymphing with an indicator as compared to using a fluorocarbon leader?
As for tactics, I seem to fail to be successful in setting [00:20:30.220] the hook on dry fly takes than I do for the takes when I'm nymphing, at least the ones that are apparent to me. Sometimes when I set the hook I don't feel the fish at all, which I assume may be the last-second rejection. Other times the fish is clearly there but I either pull it out of the fish's mouth right away or the fish is only on for a second or so. This sometimes happens when nymphing but has happened far more often when dry fly fishing. Part of it is experience but part is also lack of knowledge. What advice do you have for setting [00:21:00.412] the hook when dry fly fishing? Do you use a different technique than when nymphing?
As for timing, sometimes I feel like I'm setting the hook too quickly, and other times waiting too long. I've heard that God saved the queen tip, but is it always a good idea to pause a bit after you see the take? Does the length of the pause vary depending on the conditions? Thanks for any advice you can give a growing dry fly enthusiast."
Those are some really good questions. Bob, first of all, if I were you [00:21:30.654] I wouldn't use fluorocarbon leaders at all for either nymph or dry fly fishing. They're more expensive than nylon, and when you're nymphing with an indicator you really don't want the butt section of that leader sinking. Personally, the only time I use a fluorocarbon leader is when I'm sight fishing for fish like carp or bonefish or striped bass where I want the fly to sink fairly [00:22:00.019] quickly but I've got my eyes on the fly.
When you're fishing with a dry-dropper or an indicator or a tight line you're probably better off with a nylon leader, nylon butt section. Then when you nymph fish go to fluorocarbon, which does sink quicker than nylon. And when you're dry fly fishing you can use either one. I occasionally use fluorocarbon for dry flies and it works fine. I know a lot of people, [00:22:30.171] very good anglers, who use fluorocarbon tippet for dry flies. I usually use nylon. Not so sure that there's a big difference there. Some people think that your tippet should sink. I'm not so sure that it matters. I really don't think it matters that much.
But if I were you I would go with just a nylon leader, nylon tapered leader. When you want to fish fluorocarbon tippet with nymphs put a tippet ring on and attach a fluorocarbon tippet. [00:23:00.740] If you want to fish dry flies either you can... If you have a small tippet ring, you might even get away with that small tippet ring with the dry flies, but generally, a knot is better, a five-turn blood knot or a triple surgeon's knot is better, and go with a nylon tippet.
But I would really...I think you're going to be better off, it's going to be easier to mend, it's going to be easier for your indicator to be visible if you use a nylon leader because nylon does float. It doesn't [00:23:30.495] really float but it's more neutrally buoyant than fluorocarbon. Fluorocarbon is denser and does sink quicker than nylon. I think you're going to be better off with a nylon leader and either tippet for dry fly fishing and then probably fluorocarbon for nymphs if you believe in it.
Some people use nylon for nymphs as well. It's really up to you but you're going to save money, and sometimes knots are easier to tighten [00:24:00.539] securely with nylon than fluorocarbon, which is why people often use tippet rings to attach fluorocarbon. I hope that isn't confusing, and I hope that's helpful for your dry fly fishing.
Now regarding your striking, it can vary. Most of the time when I'm dry fly fishing, I think I strike immediately. When I see a fish take the fly, I strike immediately. [00:24:30.700] I know the fly is in the fish's mouth when it disappears. Now that's important because you are absolutely right. You probably are getting some refusals occasionally where the fish comes to the fly and splashes at it but doesn't open its mouth because it changes its mind at the last minute.
Now that happens with nymph fishing too, but the thing is we don't see those refusals unless we're sight fishing with nymphs. If you're just fishing with an indicator or tight line fishing, you won't see those refusals because you can't [00:25:00.160] see the fish. Often they'll flash at a nymph and not take it and you'll never know unless you see the flash in the water, which is fairly rare. You're going to see more rejections with dry fly fishing just because the fish has to break the surface even to refuse the fly.
Now when you're fishing for smaller trout, especially in small streams, small brook trout streams, or even browns and rainbows, you can't strike too quickly. When that fish...when you see [00:25:30.408] that rise, you have to set the hook right away. Small fish are so good at striking quickly and spitting out the fly quickly. They're much better at it than larger fish actually. So if they're small trout, you want to set the hook immediately, even if you think it's a refusal. It's sometimes tough to tell.
With a larger trout, if you know it's a larger trout that's feeding, you may want to hesitate just a bit because sometimes when a larger [00:26:00.079] trout takes, its head will break the surface first and then it will inhale the fly. And so if you can discipline yourself and you can see your fly, you want to wait until you see that fly disappear.
If you watch a really good dry fly angler fishing something like hoppers that fish often refuse, you'll see a fish come up and bump the fly but not inhale it and they won't even strike because they've disciplined [00:26:30.039] themselves not to set the hook until they see that fly disappear. Now that's tough. It's really tough to do. But in general, I think unless it's a really big trout, you want to set the hook right away. I don't believe in this God save the queen or God save the king now, I guess, stuff. I just believe that when you see it rise, do your fly, you should set the hook, particularly with small trout. So try that and see if it works.
And you know what? Some fish are just going to come off, particularly smaller fish, [00:27:00.400] especially. When I'm fishing for a small brook trout in small streams or small browns, I figure that I only land about maybe half of the fish that I hook. They just get off easy. And again, they're so quick that they often spit the fly out quicker than you can strike. So don't worry so much about losing a few fish or missing a few rises. It's going to happen. It's part of fishing. [00:27:30.476]
Here's an email from Cameron from Nova Scotia. "I love the podcast. I have a question about rod angle when fighting Atlantic salmon. I recently listened to the 'How to Fight Big Fish' podcast with Conway Bowman and it was very informative. Near the beginning of the guest section of the podcast, you guys talk about rod angle and the importance of applying side pressure. And here's where I get confused.
I'm fairly new to the Atlantic salmon game, but from what I gather, the traditional method of fighting an Atlantic salmon is with the rod angle [00:28:00.160] much more vertical than what Conway was describing. I've seen anglers fighting a salmon with the rod essentially straight up and down, holding their butt section of the rod close into their chest, this being the case, especially when the fish is running downriver. And the only time you want to apply side pressure during a fight with an Atlantic salmon is near the end when you're trying to bring the fish to the net, or I guess if it runs into an obstacle of some kind.
Atlantic salmon have very strong jaws, and for what I've been told, when applying side pressure, you run [00:28:30.079] the risk of twisting the fly out of the fish's mouth. So my question is, what's your take, Tom? How do you have your rod angle when you're fighting an Atlantic salmon?"
Well, Cameron, you know, I haven't caught a ton of Atlantic salmon. I've caught some in my years of fishing. And, you know, I fight them the same way that I do any other fish, steelhead, or a trout in a current. And I think that, yeah, when a fish is running straight [00:29:00.368] downstream of you, as an Atlantic salmon often will, it doesn't matter what angle your rod is at because, you know, you've got so much line out there that you can put your rod off to the side and you're not going to apply any side pressure in that situation when a fish is running downstream. All you can do is hold on and put some pressure on the fish.
But when you get the fish closer to the point where you can manipulate the fish, you do want to use side pressure because [00:29:30.460] if you pull straight up, that's not a direction a fish wants to go. It does not want its head to come up near the surface and it's going to pull directly away from you. On the other hand, when you apply side pressure, you're turning the fish's head and trying to get it to move in the direction you want it to move. So you may want to steer it from an obstacle or you may want to steer it, you know, a little bit upstream of you or get it in close to the net. Yeah, you've really got to use side pressure then. [00:30:00.119]
But yeah, on a long distance, when a fish is way out there, it doesn't matter. You don't need to use side pressure. But as you stated, I guess, when you get the fish closer, yes, you want to use side pressure. As far as the hook pulling out by using side pressure, I don't know, it could happen. But, you know, if a barbed hook is firmly seated, most people use barbed hooks for Atlantic salmon. I don't think you're going to pull that fly out of the fish's [00:30:30.289] mouth once it's past the barb. But with a barbless hook, yeah, maybe you might loosen it a little bit and it might slip out.
Yeah, so I guess I'm agreeing with you, although you know, you don't want to fight the fish with the rod in an upright position through the whole battle, just when the fish is running away from you. You can't do much when they're running away from you. Anyways, you can't steer them. You have to wait till they slow down and take a breather and then you start applying side pressure. So [00:31:00.460] I hope that helps, and good luck.
Here's an email from Jack from Portland, Oregon. "I have a question and a comment. First, would you suggest using watershed on fly line to prolong its float between cleaning, maybe reducing buildup? I see some mention online that it can be done, but I'm not sure if it would damage the line over time. I'd prefer not to go buy another product to condition the line as I have watershed lying around for tying dries. I know the best treatment is just good old soap and water every few outings, [00:31:30.784] but curious if you've ever tried this or have an opinion.
My comment. I was listening to an episode where a listener asked if storing a rod in a hot car could induce a deflection in the tip. While it may be true that the blank is safe, the heat can definitely damage the adhesive used on the cork. Just had the butt of my 8-weight Clearwater fall off after keeping it in a hot car parked on the Deschutes for a couple of summer days. I think this could have been [00:32:00.160] prevented by keeping it in its case rather than leaving it out and rigged. I also noticed a memory in the fly line that took a while to straighten out where it was pulled down over the tip. Appreciative of the Orvis warranty. Thanks for all you do for the angling community."
So, Jack, I have never put watershed on my fly line and I don't know what's in that and I don't think you can find out what's on it because it's probably a [00:32:30.180] proprietary chemical formula that's in that. And not knowing what's in it, I would not put it on a fly line because some solvents can damage fly lines. And so you may want to try it on an old line and see what happens.
But really, the best way to clean a fly line is, as you said, good old soap and water because modern fly lines, a good fly line, there's nothing better than just cleaning it. You don't need to apply any special products. [00:33:00.640] Sometimes you can apply silicone dry fly paste. There's a paste that comes in a little plastic tub or sometimes a metal tin.
And if the tip of your fly line starts to sink, you can rub a little bit of that paste on your line, but that doesn't have any solvent in it and that's not going to hurt it. And it does tend to pick up more dirt eventually. It'll float well at first, but then it starts to pick up junk. So I wouldn't put watershed on a fly line unless you want to experiment [00:33:30.319] with it.
And that's really interesting about that butt of your Clearwater rod falling off. Of course, I know that it gets super, super hot on the Deschutes during the summer. And you said the rod was in the car for a couple of days. So, boy, it must have been really hot in there. That's the first time I've ever heard of that. Not to say that it won't happen, but that's good to know. And maybe I need to temper my suggestion that leaving a rod in a hot [00:34:00.140] car won't affect it because it may loosen the glue on the grip. Although perhaps somebody didn't put enough glue on that Clearwater rod when they manufactured it. I'm not sure. Anyway, thanks for the tip, and thanks for the question.
And here's an email from Foster from Spartanburg, South Carolina. "I've been doing a lot of largemouth fishing this summer with the occasional carp appearance. A while ago, while fishing a river for smallmouth in Tennessee, [00:34:30.440] I hooked into what I thought was a record smallmouth, but it was actually a smallmouth buffalo that ate my streamer. This was my first experience with a buffalo and I'm very interested in methods for fishing for them. I was wondering if the techniques and the flies are the same or similar to carp fishing."
Well, Foster, I didn't know the answer to this one because I've heard of very few people that have caught smallmouth buffalo on a fly. I know some people who have tried. So I went to Rowan Lytle, [00:35:00.440] who has caught over 200 species of fish on a fly rod, to ask him what his experience with... And I'll read you what Rowan said because he's my go-to guy for unusual or alternative species on a fly rod.
So here's what he said. 'I am woefully inexperienced with buffalo myself. I've only laid eyes on them once and failed to catch any. But I do have some secondhand advice. In the spring, when they're on [00:35:30.282] their spawning run, they can be caught nymphing riffles just like a redhorse or sucker run. Small eggs, jig buggers, dark-colored nymphs are apparently the ticket. I know they'll also rise to strong mayfly hatches.
A guy I know in Minnesota named Tyler Winter catches them with dry flies when they come up for strong hatches. It's similar to a clooping carp on the Missouri River. They school up in a big eddy and eat mouthfuls at a time.'" [00:36:00.559]
So Foster, if I were you, I would try dead drifting some nymphs, some eggs, little jig buggers, and see if you can catch some more. But boy, if you can crack the smallmouth buffalo code, you're probably going to be the world expert on it. So good luck because they're a cool fish.
Finn: Hey, Tom. Finn from Wisconsin here. I have two quick questions for you. Number one is I will be heading down the San Pedro, Belize, next spring. I'm looking to get my first [00:36:30.159] saltwater fly fishing outfit. I kind of have a rod in mind, but now I'm looking for a reel. I was looking at the Orvis Battenkill disc. And to my understanding, it's a mid-arbor reel, which generally means that it's going to have a slower retrieve rate when compared to larger arbor reels.
Is this going to be an issue for me as a first-time saltwater fly angler? Should I be looking at a larger arbor reel to kind of help me keep up with the fish? Is it going to help me catch more fish to have a large arbor? [00:37:00.380] I'm really in the dark as to using reels in fly fishing just because in the Driftless Area, they're glorified line holders. Any information on that would be great.
Then number two is I'm under the impression that you have not fished the Driftless Area. I think I recall in a previous podcast you mentioned that you came here in the winter at some point. Have you been here since in the spring, summer, fall? What did you think? If not, what's going on, [00:37:30.725] man? I'm just curious to hear what your thoughts on the area are and if you've fished or not. Thank you for answering my questions, and I hope you're doing good. Take it easy. Bye.
Tom: Well, Finn, that Battenkill disc can certainly be used in saltwater. You're going to suffer a little bit on your retrieve speed. Sometimes fish will run straight at you and you need to gather line quickly. But [00:38:00.300] it'll certainly work. It's got a strong enough drag and it's a mid-arbor, so it's not a real small arbor. And I think it'll be fine.
The other alternative in that similar price point is the Hydros reel, which is similar to the Battenkill but it's a true large arbor. And that will give you higher line retrieve. So I think the Battenkill would be fine. The Hydros might be a little bit better for faster line retrieve. And I find that the faster retrieve is usually the most useful [00:38:30.800] when you're just reeling up line at the end of the day or moving from spot to spot to save a little time. The times when you have to reel super fast when a fish runs at you, it's not uncommon, but it's not that awfully common either. So I wouldn't worry about it your first-time saltwater fishing.
Regarding the Driftless, there's a lot of places I want to fish. The Driftless is at the top of my list, but like most [00:39:00.260] of you, I have a job, I have family, I have responsibilities, and I can't fish wherever I want. I get to go some pretty cool places, but there's a lot of places that I haven't been to. So I will get there someday, maybe even next spring. Every spring I try to plan a trip and then something else comes up, a hosted trip or a striper trip or a trout trip, and then it falls apart. So I want to see it someday. I hear it's spectacular, and I will do it eventually. [00:39:30.632] Thanks. All right. That is a fly box for this week. Let's go talk to Tim and Joanne Linehan.
Well, my guests today are my longtime friends, Tim and Joanne Linehan, and you guys are in town for the Owners and Managers meeting of the Orvis-Endorsed Operations. It's so great to see you guys in person. We've done podcasts before, but never, never live like this. So welcome.
Tim: Thank [00:40:00.139] you.
Tom: Welcome to snowy Vermont. It's what, April 3rd, and we got a lot of snow out there.
Tim: That's where I was going.
Joanne: It feels more like April Fools.
Tom: I know, it does.
Tim: That's where I was going. Yeah, welcome.
Joanne: But it's great to be here.
Tom: Yeah. So you guys were a couple of kids, basically, in New Hampshire. Tim, you're from New Hampshire, Joanne, you're from Florida, but you guys met in New Hampshire. And you guys ended up owning and operating [00:40:30.019] a lodge in the wilderness of Montana, pretty much. So tell us how you got there.
Joanne: Well, let's see. Tim and I were both working in New Hampshire. Tim had a sales job and I had a preschool and kindergarten and I was skiing or running a ski and bike shop. And I thought we would stay there forever. I just bought a house and Tim decided that he wanted to [00:41:00.079] go out to Montana and hunt and fish for a summer just, you know, before he got a real job. And he found a place in the Yaak Valley to caretake via a friend of a friend and left in, what was that, January of '89?
Tim: Yeah. Yeah.
Joanne: And thinking he would come back.
Tim: Just a spring summer, 35 years ago, 36, 35. [00:41:30.000] Thirty-five years ago.
Joanne: Thirty-five, yeah.
Tim: Thirty-five years, yeah.
Joanne: And just never... Tim decided he really liked it there and said, "Hey, you know, maybe you should come out and check this out too." So I gave my notice at the preschool and kindergarten and my other job and just packed up my bags and my dog and flew out there in September of '89. And that was it.
Tim: Yeah.
Joanne: Is it?
Tom: How did you adjust to it? Did you love it at first, or did it take some adjustment?
Joanne: Took a little bit of [00:42:00.119] adjustment.
Tim: It really was an extraordinary adventure, Tom. And we thought it would be short lived. It turns out that it hasn't been short lived. It's still an extraordinary adventure. But it is maybe one of the last wild places left. Maybe sort of, you know, one of the last wild places left in the lower 48 states. It's not really near anything. Maybe we'll get to that. It isn't...like, you know, we [00:42:30.179] have electricity now. But the question...
Joanne: We did the...
Tim: The adjustment. Yeah.
Tom: You got indoor plumbing?
Tim: Yeah, we didn't. So the first place that we actually were caretaking, it was a caretaking position, so to speak. You know, and we grew up in New Hampshire, you know, you just turn the lights on. Well, there was a little generator and, you know, gravity feed water system with a little cistern and an outhouse. And so, you know, there really was some adjusting, but it was... At the time, I think we were just so young and [00:43:00.461] it was so new and so exciting and, you know, so different that it was just like, 'We're going to figure this out. We're going to learn how to do this." And Joanne was...
Joanne: I finally arrived to that point, but Tim had a job when I got there. He was working for a lodge as a fishing guide. So he would leave at first light every morning and I still had never been anywhere in the Valley yet. He would leave at first light and get home three [00:43:30.159] hours after dark. I didn't have a vehicle. It was just my dog.
Tom: Did you get a lot of reading done?
Joanne: I don't even remember what I did. All I know is that the closest phone was 12 miles away.
Tom: Oh, my God.
Joanne: The mailbox was 6 miles away. And I thought one day, "I'll just go get the mail." And I started walking and I was like, "I'm never going to make it there and back." So I was a little freaked out about it. And then I started working at the same [00:44:00.573] lodge where Tim was. And yeah, everything was right in the world at that point.
Tom: So how did you guys end up owning a lodge and running your own lodge? I mean, you guys have been there for how long now in operation?
Joanne: Oh, this is our 32nd year.
Tom: Thirty-two years. And you've been Orvis-endorsed since almost the beginning, right?
Tim: Yes, yeah.
Joanne: Since the beginning an Orvis-endorsed guy.
Tim: yeah. Well, the program had already been running for a couple of few years. But yes, for all 32 years, [00:44:30.039] we've been Orvis-endorsed.
Tom: Was that when Vern Bressler...and then Mark? Wow.
Tim: Yeah, pretty incredible.
Tom: So you guys in Three Rivers have got to be the two longest-tenured Orvis-endorsed operations.
Tim: We checked that out a couple of years ago.
Joanne: What about Crystal Creek?
Tim: No, I think Dan was a little bit... No, Dan might be close though, you're right.
Joanne: Yeah.
Tom: Yeah. But I think you guys in Three Rivers are...
Tim: For the 48th, I think so.
Tom: Right up there.
Tim: Anyway, but it was... [00:45:00.300]
Tom: So you built the lodge yourselves?
Tim: Yeah.
Tom: Yeah. Wow.
Tim: The old-fashioned way, literally, Tom. We used our own money. Back in the day, it was literally hand-to-mouth. We really... The wonderful thing was we had a place to live, so expenses were way down. But I so remember Joanne as well. But I had school loans. Her loans were cleared, but I had school loans and a truck payment. And so that's a really inexpensive [00:45:30.260] way to live, even though you're still a kid. You know what I mean? So we were able to just keep putting money back into it.
We literally started... This is a story I love to tell. I borrowed... We went into business. I borrowed... I had... My grandfather left his eight grandchildren some AT&T stock in 1989. Mine was worth 600 bucks. And I called my folks and I said, "This is what I'm thinking about doing." And they said, "I think your grandfather would think [00:46:00.059] this was very appropriate."
So I sold my $600 worth of AT&T stock. I borrowed $300 from my brother and 3 college buddies and we bought our first drift boat, incorporated Linehan Outfitting, and that was the start. And then subsequently in the years there, we built one cabin, then another cabin, then a lodge. But two ways to go into business. You do it the old-fashioned way, slow boat to China, zero on money, sweat equity, or you borrow [00:46:30.099] a bunch of money, get capitalized on the front end. We just did the old-fashioned way.
Tom: Yeah. And you guys are living the dream. I'm sure there are a lot of people listening to this podcast thinking, "Oh, my God, those guys are so lucky."
Tim: We certainly have never lost sight of the fact that we love what we do. I think Joanne will...
Joanne: We definitely do.
Tim: ...agree to the minute. And yeah, maybe not so much when the plumbing breaks at 3 a.m., right? There's the angler.
Tom: The hospitality [00:47:00.921] industry has got its challenges.
Tim: Yeah.
Joanne: And then I'm down there with a net.
Tim: Yeah, the [crosstalk 00:47:07.222] but...
Joanne: Little things like that.
Tom: So, Tim, I know you started as a fishing guide, but Joanne, you are, like, a world-renowned chef. I mean, whenever I talk to people who have been to your operation, they rave about your cooking and your food. So how did you go from being a preschool teacher to a chef? [00:47:30.010]
Joanne: It's cooking and harvesting and growing food has always been a passion of mine. Growing up, my mom was a wonderful cook and I cooked with her a lot. And my dad always had great gardens, so I would garden with him. And it's just been something I've always loved. And I'm mostly self-taught, but I've also... You know, we've had clients that have become good friends. Gordon Hamersley [00:48:00.019] from Hamersley's Bistro in Boston is a good friend of ours. I studied with him and I'm always calling him for ideas. He's a great mentor. So it's just something I've always loved to do and it just sort of came naturally to me.
Tom: Do you guys grow a lot of your own food there?
Joanne: Yeah, I have a nice garden, 10-foot fence around it.
Tim: Like deer...
Tom: I was going to say the deer and the elk and the moose are probably trying to get in all the time. Wow.
Joanne: Yeah. And [00:48:30.199] I mean, I love to feed people too. It's my way of taking care of people.
Tom: Have you ever guided?
Joanne: I did guide at the very beginning. I did some walk-wade on the small streams in our valley, the Yaak Valley, that there was a certain point where I just...there were too many other things that I was doing and I stopped getting a guide license because I didn't want to have to be the backup guide one day. I was like, "No, [00:49:00.300] I can't do that. I don't have a license."
Tim: While you were making the salad.
Joanne: Exactly.
Tim: At the same time you were making the salad.
Joanne: And I did enjoy it. I had to choose.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Tim: We started to get so busy it just required somebody else to sort of, you know, manage all the other things that were going on, Tom. I'd leave early and the phone was starting to ring a little. I'd just take time. I would add too, as far as Joanne's cooking. [00:49:30.320] There's such a thing as cooking with love. And I think that that's maybe what our guests most recognize in Joanne.
Tom: Yeah.
Joanne: It's pretty simple, but...
Tom: Pretty satisfying too, when somebody raves about your dinner, isn't it?
Joanne: It encourages me to do more and more and more. So I build on that first night and just keep trying to sort of outdo the night before...
Tom: Oh, cool.
Joanne: ...because I have to. The pressure is officially on after the [00:50:00.358] first night. I'm like, "Oh, no."
Tom: Maybe you should do, like, macaroni and cheese the first night and then build up from there.
Tim: The first night.
Tom: Yeah.
Tim: Set the bar lower and then go. Joanne's brownies are almost world...
Joanne: Soon to be world-famous.
Tim: Soon to be world-famous. We have a client of ours, Tom, he summed it up nicely. This is a few years ago and it was so appropriate and so perfect. And one of the finest sentences I've ever heard in my life. He looked at me halfway through the day. He said, [00:50:30.269] you know, "I come for the brownies and do a little fishing."
Joanne: Yeah, "I come for the brownies [crosstalk 00:50:34.880]."
Tom: Did you bring any brownies with you?
Tim: No, no brownies.
Tom: I think I've had them at the shows before.
Tim: I think you have.
Tom: I think I've seen you guys at the shows.
Tim: Yeah, at the rendezvous too.
Joanne: No. Was it your birthday in Missoula?
Tom: Yeah, one year, it was my birthday. The rendezvous used to be on my birthday.
Tim: That's right.
Tom: Yeah. Which was a real mistake because all the guys would want to take me out and get me drunk. And I'm telling you, I'm so glad we don't have those rendezvous over my birthday anymore because it was brutal. [00:51:00.608]
Tim: Fun for a while.
Tom: Yeah, for a while, the first half hour was fun.
Tim: Exactly.
Joanne: It was regular...
Tim: I remember it well.
Tom: We could tell some stories about guide rendezvous.
Joanne: The ones in West Yellowstone?
Tim: Oh, my God.
Tom: Yeah.
Joanne: Around the pool.
Tim: Around the pool.
Tom: No, that was Livingston.
Tim: It was Livingston. Yes, it was Livingston.
Tom: When everybody got thrown in the pool.
Joanne: And then there was Chico Hot Springs one, yeah.
Tom: Oh, that was a fun one.
Tim: Chico, that was early, way early. That's going way back, right?
Tom: Yeah, Chico was [00:51:30.262] fun.
Joanne: That was the first year we were there.
Tim: I think so. Yeah, incredible. yeah.
Tom: So tell me some stories. Tell me about the trials and tribulations of being a lodge owner. You know, got any good stories you can tell on the air?
Tim: Well, I mean...
Joanne: I'll let you tell those.
Tim: No, go ahead. Well, I mean, you know, going back to my comment from a moment ago, there [00:52:00.199] is sort of this, I think that on the surface, there's a very romantic notion. Wow, what a life, right? But to your point, Tom, it is the hospitality business. And, you know, the piece that never goes away is the switch always has to be on if you're working. You know what I mean? So this is less a funny story, but more. That's the challenge that I think any lodge owner faces each day. And that doesn't [00:52:30.500] necessarily get more difficult, do you think, it just changes a little?
Joanne: No, it changes a little. I mean, obviously, we really, really love what we do, which makes it all good. There are long, long hours and long, long days. And you're kind of always on. I mean, our office is in our home. So the phone rings. People think they're calling in office. The phone rings at 3:00 in the morning. [00:53:00.380] They're leaving a message, that kind of thing. And, you know, it's like we're just pretty much always on, but, you know, that's one of the challenges.
Tim: I would say too that the tribulations, let's face it, being married to your business partner.
Joanne: Oh, yes. That's had its set of challenges. But it's interesting because, you know, early on, there's always a lot of stress in building a business, even [00:53:30.440] still now.
Tim: That hasn't gone away.
Joanne: Thankfully, we're not both ever freaking out at the same time. Kind of just like, you know, if it's something that Tim is kind of, oh, no, this, this, this, and then I'm like, "It's going to be okay."
Tom: Is this an agreed-upon thing, like this is your day to freak out and then this is my day to freak out?
Joanne: That has worked.
Tim: I think it's just kind of a panic. That's a really, really good...
Tom: Sign of a good marriage I think.
Tim: It's a really good point, Joanne. That's a really good... I never even would have thought of it that way. It just [00:54:00.099] kind of, it's, you know, my data sort of shored all up or her data shored all up. You know what I mean? Which is unusual in a good marriage, but, you know, it's tricky when it's also business. Or just a different element. It adds a different element to the whole thing. Yeah.
Joanne: And then at the same time, you know, Tim gets up in the morning and leaves to go guide all day. I get up and I go right to the kitchen and start, you know, baking breads and making pastries and desserts and brownies for all the guides. [00:54:30.945] And then at about 2:00 or 3:00 every day, I pack everything up and go down to the lodge, which is an hour from our house. Yeah. We have two different locations. So the lodge is down in Libby. And so...
Tom: You don't live... I thought you lived at the lodge. You don't live at the lodge?
Joanne: We live at the cabin.
Tim: Two lodging options. So we have our Yaak location, not to interrupt, right, where we have our cabins. Those are standalone, self-catered. A beautiful little handcrafted log homes, full kitchens, the whole nine yards, Tom. And then that's [00:55:00.239] in the Yaak where we live. And then down on the Kootenay River, 60 miles away, is our lodge.
Joanne: Forty-two miles.
Tim: Forty-two miles.
Joanne: Takes an hour, but...
Tim: Yeah, two places, right? So we drive 150 miles a day.
Tom: Oh, my God.
Joanne: So I go down there and, you know, unpack everything, greet all of the guests as they come off the water. Tim sometimes will pop in and say hi when he drops his boat off. Sometimes he just scoots right up the road. And I get home at 11:00, 11:30. So we're kind of ships passing...[00:55:30.400]
Tom: Wow. Every day.
Joanne: ...for a good portion of the season.
Tim: Yeah. I would say mid-June to October 1-ish.
Tom: Yeah. But you guys have a long season because you do hunting, is what you do, bird hunting and you do bear hunting, right?
Tim: Big game.
Tom: Big game, yeah.
Tim: Full fly fishing, full wing shooting, and full big game. Which is actually, from a business model, actually a really good thing. So we go...
Joanne: So we go year-round.
Tim: Yeah, we have year-round operations. Yeah. That's another conversation that's interesting these days. It's almost more old school. Now it seems like a lot of outfitters [00:56:00.207] in the West are kind of either hunting or either fishing, you know, less both, but whatever. Yeah.
Tom: So when is your downtime?
Joanne: Right now.
Tom: Right now, April?
Tim: Yeah, -ish.
Tom: Yeah. But what do you do in January and February? There's no hunting, is there?
Tim: Yeah.
Tom: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Tim: We're doing this.
Tom: That's where I see you guys all the time.
Tim: Yeah.
Joanne: Yeah.
Tim: And then, you know, the other piece of it, Tom, it's kind of I know that there really isn't any downtime because, on [00:56:30.440] January 10th, we're both up at 7:00 in the morning and down to the desk because, you know, as you well know, the admin work is always. I can always work on the website. Joanne can always be doing constant contacts. I mean, none of it goes away. You know what I mean? It just doesn't.
Joanne: Sales.
Tim: Sales.
Tom: How much help do you guys have? So how many guys do you have?
Tim: So we're smaller to medium across our operations. And so for our fishing, probably, [00:57:00.159] you know, like, a dozen people would be capacity. So we average about six guys for fishing. The hunting operations across the board, only two of us for the bird hunting, for the grass hunting, and average four guys for our big game. So smaller to medium. You know what I mean?
Joanne: Then we have an office manager.
Tim: Yeah, we do.
Tom: You do have an office manager?
Joanne: Three days a week.
Tim: We do. Yeah. Finally could afford one...
Joanne: She's amazing.
Tim: ...three or four years ago. And that has been...
Joanne: It's been fantastic.
Tim: Yeah, [00:57:30.000] it's been wonderful.
Joanne: Takes a little pressure off of me.
Tim: Yeah.
Tom: Do you have any help in the kitchen? You must have.
Joanne: No.
Tim: No.
Tom: No? You do it all yourself?
Joanne: I do.
Tom: All the prep and...
Tim: Everything.
Joanne: Prep, cook, serve.
Tom: Oh, my God. Whoa.
Joanne: I am bringing on a woman who's going to help me this summer, maybe take a night or two a week so that I'm not down there 90 straight nights. But yeah, I really enjoy it.
Tom: Wow. [00:58:00.400] You guys are such hard workers. I can't believe it.
Tim: But a 52-day run last year, something like that, 52 straight nights.
Tom: Fifty-two straight days of cooking, serving, prepping.
Tim: Home at midnight.
Tom: Wow.
Joanne: Yeah. I'm noticing it a little bit more as I... It's not quite as easy as it was 32 years ago.
Tom: Yeah. Getting up early in the morning gets harder every year.
Tim: It does. Maintaining [00:58:30.059] gets a little harder.
Tom: Yeah.
Joanne: But that's when our guests come in because almost all of the guests that I cook for at our lodge are our repeat.
Tom: So they're friends, you know them. Yeah.
Joanne: They're all in the kitchen with me. Finally, when it's crunch time to really plate everything, I'm like, "Okay, everybody out of the kitchen," kicking them out.
Tim: Always a bit of performance, but the nice thing with such return is also the friendly banter. They just...get out of my way.
Tom: It's like family, right?
Joanne: It is. [00:59:00.199] I think that's how people feel when they come to our lodges. I mean, it's their place for the week. I'm just there preparing their meals for them.
Tom: Slaving for them.
Joanne: Yeah. I don't know. That's how they feel. They feel like it's their own place.
Tom: Wow. So you guys have kind of a unique fishery. I feel terrible. We've known each other for 30-some years and I've never been to [00:59:30.099] your lodge. I never get up to northern Montana. So tell me a little bit about the country and the fisheries you have. Now you have, I believe, in your area, it's the only place in Montana where rainbow trout are native, right?
Tim: That is correct.
Tom: Because you're Columbia River drainage.
Tim: That's correct, Tom.
Joanne: Native redband rainbows.
Tim: Yeah. And allegedly or scientifically, they were steelhead that were shut off the last glacial ice age. [01:00:00.465] Not necessarily the dams, even before that. So yeah, so we are in the far northwest corner. So everybody...you know, if you say Montana people think big sky country. We're not necessarily big sky country. We're much more like the Pacific Northwest. It's deep timber and it's big coniferous forest, boreal forest, and granitic, much more granite harder country, Tom. You know what I mean? Maybe more like New England in that regard. [01:00:30.300]
And so the Kootenay is our main fishery. We call it Kootenay Country, Kootenay River Country. The Kootenay River starts in British Columbia actually and travels dead south into Montana and then fishery from our fisheries below the Libby Dam, it's tailwater fishery, big tailwater fishery, 200 or 300 yards wide. In most places, drift boat fishery for the most part makes a big bend to the west, goes into the Panhandle of Idaho and turns dead north again, [01:01:00.679] and eventually dumps into the Columbia in Canada again. So it's a big U.
Tom: Oh, wow.
Tim: Yeah, it's a very interesting river in that regard. Yeah. To your point, the only native rainbow trout in the Rocky Mountain West. People forget that most species were stalked. That's why there are, you know, browns and rainbows everywhere else.
Tom: Right. Do you have cutthroats?
Tim: Yeah, Westslope cuts. I was going to go there.
Tom: And are they native there too?
Tim: They are native, yeah. So we have...
Tom: So both species are native.
Tim: Yep. Bull trout as well [01:01:30.374] are native. Mountain whitefish.
Joanne: Northern pikeminnow.
Tim: Northern pikeminnow.
Tom: Do you have any of those nasty invasive brown trout in there?
Tim: A handful. That's a really interesting question. So I tracked that down a long time ago and for whatever reasons, probably the biologist that told me this said, "Probably, Tim, it was logistics." They never really stalked brown trout way the heck up where we were probably because of distance at the time. Too [01:02:00.099] far to go with the trucks, too far to go with the mules, whatever they happened to be using at the time, Tom.
Joanne: I caught a brown trout once.
Tim: Yeah, there's a handful.
Joanne: I mean, it was shocking.
Tom: But it's rare.
Tim: It is very rare.
Joanne: Super rare.
Tim: Bucket biology, someone put them in a tributary 15 years to 20 years...
Tom: So you're mostly fishing for native salmonids, which is unusual anywhere in the world now in a river that large to [01:02:30.320] have just native species is pretty cool.
Tim: Yeah. The rainbows in the Kootenay now, they might be mutts to a very small degree though. You could still catch a native rainbow in the Kootenay River and inland redband rainbow.
Tom: Can you tell the difference between...no, you need DNA, okay. And do you have other waters that you fish?
Tim: Yeah, so we have tributaries.
Tom: And don't mention any of the names of the small streams.
Tim: No, I won't. Some of the [01:03:00.420] tributaries for as monstrous system as it is, it is a lot like New England in that the small stream, the tributaries of the Kootenay can fish very, very well, you know, until about July and then things start to get a little lower and slower. So we do have some really, really fun stuff. We love, you know, 2-weights and old Battenkill reels, and they don't even need to really spool line. You can just...20 feet.
Tom: Yeah, that's all you need.
Tim: Yes. Big fish of the day might be 12 inches. [01:03:30.533] That's monster. It's very similar. I love it. Joanne, we get a day off and that's what we love.
Joanne: That's where we go.
Tom: Yeah, you like that the best.
Tim: I grew up doing it.
Joanne: I love it.
Tim: Yeah. And, you know, the boat's great, and that's wonderful. We do so much of that. But if we get a day off, we grab the old 2-weight and I think it's, what is it, a far and fine. I think it's an ancient, I've had that thing for 20.
Tom: Oh, 2-weight. It's the Ultrafine.
Tim: Yes, exactly.
Tom: The Ultrafine. I have one of those too.
Tim: Twenty years old.
Tom: Yeah, slow [01:04:00.480] as can be.
Tim: I mean, you know, 6 inches and it's doubled right over. Fish a Royal Wulff all day. If you lose that, you can...
Joanne: Try a shoelace.
Tim: Yeah, you can, you know, tie up a piece of your shoelace and they'll still eat that.
Tom: And do your clients do that small stream stuff?
Tim: Yeah, they love to. So we substitute that when we can, when conditions are appropriate. We actually really enjoy that. Most of our trips are maybe five days now, six nights and five days. You know, it's a certain, it's a specific...
Joanne: Not everyone.
Tim: Yeah, it's specific to [01:04:30.119] a certain clientele, but some people love it. Some people just love it.
Joanne: Just you never see another soul.
Tim: Yeah, literally.
Joanne: I mean, you hardly see other boats on the Kootenay.
Tim: It's still pretty amazing.
Joanne: That's one of the biggest comments at the dinner table. You know, people say, "Did you see another boat today?"
Tom: Oh, wow.
Joanne: And you're like, "No, we didn't see anyone today."
Tom: In a river that big too.
Tim: It absorbs it. It doesn't make any... You know, really it's sort of silly. You see a couple of boats, I'm like, "Jeez, I'm busy out there."
Joanne: Which is pretty amazing to hear that still.
Tim: It's changed a little.
Tom: Yeah, because you [01:05:00.139] hear about so much, you know, in the Rockies now, it being so crowded, at least rivers you can float. So that's a unique experience.
Tim: It's changing a little bit. It's a little busier than it was 20 years ago, but there are days when we don't see another drift boat.
Tom: Are there any other outfitters on that river? There are. Okay.
Tim: So one of the great things though, that's a really great and interesting question, one of the great things about our area is most of it is national forest. [01:05:30.199] And so even the ramps are national forest. And our area, Tom, the Forest Service did it. I think they did a wonderful thing. Twenty, 30 years ago now, they saw what might be coming. Long story short, we are permitted on the Kootenay, and there are only four permits on the Kootenay, much like the snake, and lots of places now in the west are doing that.
Tom: Four permits. How many boats can they put on per day?
Tim: That's sort of unlimited.
Tom: Oh, okay.
Tim: But I would say this, there are [01:06:00.157] really only two outfitters that are doing it substantially.
Joanne: Yeah.
Tom: And if a civilian wants to take their drift boat there?
Tim: Yeah, wide open to the public. I think we're not, we talked about this earlier in the conversation, we're not near anything, which is probably, well, it's not probably, that's why it's not as busy as it otherwise might be.
Joanne: That's why you've not been there yet.
Tom: I know. I can't get north. I just run into so many other trout.
Tim: That's a good problem. [01:06:30.500]
Tom: I really need to come and see you guys.
Tim: I think it's appealing to so many of our clients these days because it is still so different. You know, geography can be interesting, but with geography comes culture. And those two things, you know, sometimes they're good and sometimes they're bad. I'm not sure I'm being clear [01:07:00.099] or articulate here, but what's different about where we are right now is it's almost a place in Montana that just...it's kind of still in the '50s.
Joanne: I'm has forgotten.
Tim: Yeah. You know what I mean, Tom? Not to give the wrong idea, but Libby has a Pizza Hut and a McDonald's, but not a Starbucks. And not one coming anytime soon. You know what I mean? So it's that kind of flavor. You know what I mean? The Dirty Shame Saloon is...[01:07:30.387] You can just put that together. It's the Dirty Shame Saloon. And it's wonderful. You know what I mean? And you're apt to sit next to a logger and a guide and a mother or father or family, or some version of all of that. You know what I mean? And that happens in other places, but, you know, I don't know, it's kind of hard to pin it down, but it's a blend of sort of old and not quite new yet.
Tom: Yeah. How many people? What's the population of Libby?
Tim: So that's [01:08:00.019] a good question.
Joanne: You know, I think, say 10-mile radius, is that 10,000 people?
Tim: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's correct. That's correct.
Joanne: Close to that. I don't know what the county, you know, the county is pretty large. Libby is probably...
Tom: It's probably mostly national forest, right?
Tim: Yes. So to that point, so Lincoln County, Montana, which is where we are, lies entirely within the Kootenay National Forest. And the Kootenay National Forest have 1.2 million or 1.3 million acres [01:08:30.460] of public land, but only 9% of the county is private property. So compared to Bozeman, compared to Missoula, right, compared to Carbondale, wherever.
Joanne: Flathead.
Tim: Yeah, the Flathead Valley, Whitefish, right? And then where we are, the little Yaak Valley, which is north of Libby, which is where we live, only 2% of the land mass of what would be the Yaak River drain is private property. That is basically...[01:09:00.000]
Joanne: The river bottom.
Tim: ...the river bottom, which was Burlington Northern homesteads and things like that. Turn of the century.
Joanne: It was all 160-acre homesteads. Well, most of them have been broken up, but there still are five or six, maybe a dozen homesteads that are still fully intact.
Tim: Yeah,160-acre pieces.
Tom: Are there still people farming there?
Tim: Not so much farming.
Tom: No.
Tim: Yeah, not so much.
Joanne: No.
Tim: No. There [01:09:30.731] are...
Tom: Doesn't sound like the soil would be great for...
Tim: It's not. There are some people...
Tom: ...except your garden, right?
Joanne: Yes.
Tim: Well, we had to bring in a lot of loam.
Joanne: Yeah, nobody is good.
Tim: That's true. There are lots of people that are living off the grid still. There's still that sort of, you know, like, those little corners of Vermont, New Hampshire, right? Tons of people still living off the grid. Yeah.
Joanne: Yeah, there's...
Tim: Almost increasingly after COVID.
Joanne: ...not electricity in a lot of places up there still. If they wanted it, they wouldn't have it.
Tim: Starlink has been a brave new world. [01:10:00.404] We do have it.
Joanne: It has been a game changer.
Tim: It has. I have got to say this is...
Joanne: Gone are the days of sending thumb drives of photos back and forth to guests, you know.
Tom: Yeah, once we did a podcast, didn't you have to drive like 60 miles to get to a phone?
Tim: I went down to our lodge. Yeah, exactly.
Tom: Oh, boy.
Tim: So there are, you know, some solutions, some technological advances happening. No Starbucks yet. Not that there's anything wrong [01:10:30.159] with Starbucks.
Tom: Well, it sounds like heaven. And I know that Orvis and myself personally are so honored to be associated with you guys and to work with you guys over the years. You guys have just been the epitome of what an Orvis-endorsed lodge should be. You started from the ground up. You know, you built this yourselves and your clients are family. [01:11:00.180] I mean, that's exactly the intent of the endorsed program.
Joanne: Well, we would not likely have been able to do all this without Orvis. It's been an honor for...
Tim: Yeah. It's a great partnership.
Joanne: ...us to be partners and we're super grateful for that.
Tom: I think you guys could have done it. The word would have gotten around.
Tim: I suppose, but to Joanne's point, in many instances, it has been the backbone [01:11:30.119] of the philosophy of Linehan Outfit.
Tom: Well, we've learned a lot from you guys too.
Tim: Thank you.
Tom: We have learned...
Joanne: Partnership.
Tom: ...how to be good people. You guys are two of the nicest human beings in the world and you do it day after day and, you know, we take a lot away from that.
Tim: Thanks, Tom. Good parents make good people.
Tom: Yeah, we really... You know, a lot of times I know we think, what would the Linehans [01:12:00.000] do in this situation? Because you guys are the best.
Tim: Thank you and right back at you. Yep.
Tom: Been a great 32 years.
Tim: Thanks for all these years. Literally, you've been a big part of it.
Joanne: Years to more.
Tom: Yeah, and you guys as well.
Tim: Do you, Joanne, feel like you're just getting started, or where do you stand in all this?
Joanne: I don't feel like I'm just getting started. I [01:12:30.039] have a good amount of time left in me to continue on.
Tom: Your customers hope so. Your clients hope so.
Tim: I'm glad to hear it.
Joanne: Tim.
Tim: No, that's why I asked. I'm glad to hear it.
Joanne: The million-dollar question.
Tim: Yeah, and that's all good.
Joanne: We're not going anywhere anytime soon.
Tom: Great. Well, that's good to hear.
Tim: Thanks, Tom.
Tom: All right, guys. Well, thank you for coming on the podcast today, and it's so great to see you in person. We're going to go over and watch the awards ceremony.
Tim: Thank you.
Joanne: Sounds like a plan.
Tom: All right.
Tim: Thank you.
Joanne: Thank you, Tom. [01:13:00.639]
Tom: Thanks.
Man: Thanks for listening to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at