Is Fly Fishing Really Good for Your Mental Health? With Melissa Ceren
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing" podcast. This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And my guest this week is Melissa Ceren. Melissa works in kind of an intersection between mental health and fly fishing. Melissa is a [00:00:30.039] licensed therapist and she's also a fly-fishing guide. And the topic we're going to discuss is, "Is fly fishing always good for your mental health?"
We know that it's...most of us intuitively know it's pretty good for our mental health. And we're out in nature and we're constantly moving, we're getting exercise, we're getting away from the daily grind, and so on, and so we're solving problems and so on. But is it always good for your mental health? Are there times [00:01:00.219] when it's not? And are there ways that you can approach fly fishing so that you're going to maximize your mental health benefit? So anyways, it was a fun discussion. I kind of played devil's advocate a little bit. And we had some fun with it. And I hope you enjoy the interview.
But first, let's do the "Fly Box." So, the "Fly Box" is where you ask me questions and I try to answer them if I can. So, I read all of your [00:01:30.159] questions. I don't answer all of them, but I try to answer the ones that are relevant, I think, to the rest of the podcast listeners, and the answers to those will help other people in their fly-fishing journey. And I think this is what makes this podcast so successful, is you. It's your questions and you guide me toward topics because we have this interchange. And [00:02:00.200] when someone comes to me with an idea for a podcast, I have a pretty good idea of whether it's going to appeal to most of you out there, most of my listeners. So anyway, without further ado, let's do the podcast.
Oh, before we do that, I should tell you where you can send your questions. You can send them to
Yeah, Tanner, you know, unless you've been inside a rod shop, you wouldn't realize this, but every fly rod manufacturer and every model they make has a different taper. and the ferrule, [00:03:30.400] the thing that joins the two pieces of rod together, the ferrule has to be incorporated in that taper so you get a smooth action. And so, there is...if a section from one rod, even from... Let's say you have a 5-weight rod from Orvis and you want, and you broke the tip and you want to try to put a 4-weight tip on it, chances are it's not going to fit because each one of those sections is tapered [00:04:00.409] in a very precise manner, and the ferrules are tapered so that they fit properly. So, yeah, if one of those sections fit, I would be very surprised, and it probably wouldn't cast very well anyway.
So really, if you break a section on a rod, you need to use a spare rod and you need to send that rod back to the manufacturer. Of course, if it's an Orvis rod, you don't have to send the whole rod back because our ferrule fits are so [00:04:30.139] tight and precise, and our tapers are so precise that we can send you a new section without having to have the whole rod back. But some manufacturers, you're going to have to send the whole rod back.
Bob: Bob from South Carolina. Having heard Jason Randall discussion on hearing senses of trout, what is your current recommendation on the use of studded boots and wading staffs? Thanks for all you and Orvis, too.
Tom: So, Bob, we [00:05:00.360] still don't know the answer to this. We figured that fish can hear the sound of studded boots and wading staffs on the bottom. However, Jason and I kind of came to the conclusion, and I think most anglers who have been around for a while come to the conclusion that, yeah, they may be able to hear the noise, but it's not a noise that bothers them. None of their predators or anything that's a threat to them makes a scraping or a clanking noise [00:05:30.160] on the bottom. And they may be able to hear it, they may not be able to hear it, but it doesn't seem to bother the fish.
You know, you should be careful. You shouldn't make real loud banging noises with your wading boots or your wading staff. But just shuffling along with studded boots or feeling along with a metal-tipped wading staff, I don't think it's going to bother trout at all. And I've tested this and I've watched fish that I could see and [00:06:00.160] scraped my studs on the bottom or scraped my wading staff, and it doesn't seem to disturb them at all. They don't change their feeding pattern, they don't wiggle or twitch or kind of stiffen like they do when they're on alert. And also, wading staff, a lot of the wading staffs will have a rubber tip that you can put on them so that you don't make that noise if it bothers you. But I don't think it bothers the fish.
Here's an email from Todd. "Hi, Tom. Thanks for taking the time to read my message. [00:06:30.337] My question has to do with using indicators. I watch a lot of videos where guys are niffing without an indicator. And by watching their line, I can see the take myself, and I'm wondering if I should start moving away from indicators. What benefit would I get from doing so? I was thinking of maybe trying it a few times to see how it works out, but wondering if you think there are benefits to moving away from using one. Most of the time I use the small Oros indicators and I am fishing medium-to-large waters.
[00:07:00.560] Well, Todd, yeah, you can certainly fish nymphs without an indicator. And I enjoy doing it and I try to do it whenever I can. It's a way I learned how to nymph fish just watching the tip of my floating line. There are benefits to it. You're not going to make as much disturbance on the water. So, no matter how carefully you cast an indicator, it's going to make a plop on the water, and that often spooks fish. That's why a lot of people use dry dropper because [00:07:30.000] a dry fly is a little more subtle when it lands on the bottom and still acts as an indicator.
And it's just a cleaner, nicer way to cast an indicator on your leader, is air resistant and heavy, and they're not as much fun to cast. And it's a lot more pleasant to cast a rig with a small-weighted nymph without an indicator on there. So, there are a lot of benefits to it. Will [00:08:00.160] you miss a few more strikes? Maybe. And I have found that it works best in faster water because the line is moving quicker and you see that twitch in the line. The fish often take it in faster water a lot more aggressively. So, what I would do is I would start out fishing it in riffles and faster water and then see if you like it and see if you can get to the point where you can detect most of [00:08:30.040] the strikes, and then try it in some slower water and see how it works for you. But I would highly advise you to give it a try. I think you'll enjoy it.
Here's an email from Camden. "I've got a question. When fishing, are you more likely to change the fly or size up-down from the fly you are already using?" Well, that's a good question, Camden. And personally, I don't have a standard answer to that. I think that [00:09:00.419] it depends on whether I'm dry fly or nymph fishing. If I am nymph fishing, I will almost always change the pattern. If I'm not getting anything, I'll almost always change the pattern and the size. I'll usually go down a size and I will change a pattern a little bit because I don't know if the size is that important when nymph fishing, but the pattern seems to be, the color and the [00:09:30.159] profile of the fly seems to make a difference. So, I'll probably change I'll probably change everything up and go down.
Now, if fish are rising and I'm fishing to them with a dry fly, I think I will often use...and the fish refuse the fly or they don't take it, first thing I'll look for is drag, is my fly dragging. And the second thing, if I'm sure I'm not getting drag, then, you know, [00:10:00.080] I'll usually change...I'll usually go down, I'll usually go down in size for sure on a dry fly, and I might try a slightly different pattern. So, let's say I'm fishing blueing olive hatch and in a size 18, I've got a size-18 sparkle done on there, which is my favorite fly for when mayflies are hatching. And a couple of fish splash at it and most of them refuse it. So, I know the [00:10:30.100] fly isn't quite right.
My typical go to strategy would be to go to a slightly different dry fly in a size smaller. So, I would go to a size 20, and I might use a hackled fly, I might use maybe a CDC fly or an RS2 or something like that. But I would change it up a little bit. And I would often go to maybe a longer, lighter tip it. [00:11:00.019] So, that's my philosophy. Anyway, other people might have a different philosophy that you asked about what I do, and that's what I do.
Kurt: Hi, Tom, I'm hoping you can help me out with the question. I live and fish in the Rocky Mountains and I mostly chase trout, but I also like to go after other fish species. Usually, I go with a friend or two, sometimes I go by myself. But today, I have a question about guided trips. I've been on a few guided [00:11:30.019] saltwater trips to Mexico, Florida, Louisiana, California. And I'm wondering if you can offer some advice on how to improve the experience on a guided trip.
Six of these trips I've been skunked on. The reasons have ranged from a case of days of bad weather, three cases where the guides were just plain frustrated with the crappy fishing, and two cases of [00:12:00.220] maybe less-experienced guides. After my first experience getting skunked on a guide trip, I decided to ask for a backup plan in case the fishing is bad. But unfortunately, this has not worked. I've tried this with three different guides on the last day of a trip. And when we've asked them about going after something else that might be easier to catch, for different reasons, that just has not worked. [00:12:30.100] And I understand that wind and rain can ruin sight fishing or weather system can turn off the bite, nut on the last day of a trip, I would be happy to chase lady fish, bass, mackerel, whatever, that maybe aren't the target species.
I try to always research the guide service and ask for references, check the weather as far in advance as I can, and try to learn about where I'm [00:13:00.000] going and the fish that I'm going to. But I'm missing something and I'm wondering if you have any suggestions. I've gone on eight trips and been skunked six times, and I'm kind of wondering if that's a typical ratio. I usually have a lot of fun on these trips, but shelling out thousands of dollars to not catch any fish is pretty disappointing. I'm really thinking [00:13:30.200] about someday I'd like to go the East Coast for stripers and maybe go back to the Southern Coast for redfish, but my latest experience in California, I'm not so sure I'm willing to do that again. Anyway, thanks. Bye."
Tom: Well, Kurt, that's a tough one. And you know what? It sounds like you just had a run of bad luck. [00:14:00.200] And I'm sorry that happened to you, but it sounds like you had both bad weather and maybe inexperienced or not the greatest guides in the world. And I wouldn't give up on it. But saltwater fishing in general is, I think, a lot more weather-dependent and wind and sun and tide-dependent than trout fishing. Trout fishing, you know, if the fish are round and the water isn't totally blown out, you can generally figure out a way to catch [00:14:30.080] them. But in saltwater, if the conditions aren't right, it can be a real struggle.
And I think that you can't really...going on a saltwater trip takes some planning. So, you can't really plan on the weather unless you have a really super flexible schedule. And you're going to have to go when you plan your trip. The one thing you can do is do your research on times of year. I mean, certain times a year are going to be windier [00:15:00.019] and cloudier, which makes things difficult in saltwater fly fishing. So, you can do your research on time of year on what's the best time of year. And also, try to vet the guides. Go with an established outfitter or travel agency like Orvis Travel. And, you know, the chances are you go with an established travel agency, fly fishing travel agency, and you're not going to go to an area where the guides are [00:15:30.200] surly or not very helpful. But I think it's just a lot of bad luck and that's unfortunate. It's a big ocean and it's so weather-dependent. I wouldn't give up. I'd keep trying because when you do hit it right and you have that great trip where the weather crop rates and you have a good guide, it can be a life-changing experience.
Here's an email from Craig from Minnesota. "Thanks for the great show. I'm most interested in shows [00:16:00.159] that focus on improving our collective river skills. So, here are a couple of questions in the vein that hopefully you can address. Please feel free to address one or all of my questions as you see fit." Well, I'll try to answer all of them, Craig. "I'm having some success with dries in the last six months, and finding myself approaching almost every run with a dry first, rises or not, since I love the thrill of the surface heat. My theory is I can start with dries and hopefully disturb fish less [00:16:30.019] than starting with a two-fly nymph rig and indicator. Makes sense or not? I'm trying my best to get by with just one all-purpose 9-foot, 5-weight Orvis recon so I can avoid keeping track of a second rod left on the bank. I'm able to switch dries to nymph rigs fairly quickly since I take along a six, pre-tied nymph rigs. Aside from tying time, the only other reason I see to carry a dedicated dry fly rod would be leader switching. I usually start every day on the Russia Root Rivers [00:17:00.759] in the Wisconsin-Minnesota driftless area with a 9-foot, 5-X leader and then add on another three feet of 5-X tippet before I tie on my flies. Am I missing some flexibility and effectiveness by not carrying two rods? My average day typically results in catching three to eight fish. My best so far was 17 in one day. Would I routinely catch more fish carrying a second rod with say a 12-foot, 5-X leader and some 6-X tippet just for dries?" Obviously [00:17:30.160] a second rod would be great for hoppers and streamers, but I rarely fish streamers where a heavier leader is clearly better for those big flies.
Question two. "My buddy who started about six months ago is excited about fishing for bigger fish he sees under bridges. I can't say I've had much success with that. Can you address the best way to fish for bigger trout holding under a bridge? They look so tempting." Number three. "When I get a tangled mess, I usually cut everything off and start [00:18:00.000] over. I was thinking of bringing along a safety pin or diaper pin so I can more easily free up those knots that have cinched up quick from the current. Have you tried that or have any suggestions for those occasional bigger tangles?"
So, regarding your first question, Craig, I almost never carry a second rod when I'm wade fishing. It's just... I don't want to deal with carrying two rods. And I try to pick the rod like you do, a 9-foot, 5-weight that [00:18:30.279] will do nearly everything. And, yeah, you might have to change leaders if you go from a dry fly to a streamer rig, but trying to keep track of a second rod and having to keep picking it up when you change spots is a pain. The one time I often take a second rod is if I'm fishing from a drift boat, and you've got place to store rods, and they're right there handy next to you. I'll [00:19:00.140] generally rig up a dry or a dry dropper rod and then a streamer or a big nymph rod. But that's about the only time. I think it's a pain. I think that you can make it work with that 9-foot, 5-weight.
Question two, fish under bridges. I don't fish for them. You know what? There's a couple of reasons. One is that that fish under the bridge is going to be cast to by every angler that goes by, [00:19:30.180] whether it's a worm angler or a Rapala angler or a fly angler. And they see a lot of stuff because people know they're there, you know, you can see it from the bridge. And often, bridge pools are usually pretty deep, and fish that are under bridges in a deep pool are often just hiding or resting, and they're not actively feeding. Chances are that fish that's under the bridge is going to move into shallower water, [00:20:00.206] particularly in the tail of the pool below the bridge when it's eating.
The one way you might be able to catch a big fish under a bridge is to approach that fish right at dark when there's more insects hatching, and they often drop down the tail of the pool and feed. But if they're not actively feeding, I would just enjoy watching them and then move on. Unless I see them actively feeding under that bridge, then I might try for [00:20:30.140] them, but I usually pass them up.
Regarding tangled messes, the problem is that if you get a pretty tight knot in your tippet, it's going to weaken that leader material, more so with nylon than fluorocarbon, but it's still going to weaken it somewhat because that extreme bend that goes in the tippet can change the molecular structure of the leader. So, trying to pick them apart with a couple of pins, you might nick the leader with the point of that pin. [00:21:00.559] I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't bother. I would just... It doesn't sound like you're averse to tying knots, so I would just cut and re-tie, as my friend Joe Cermele calls his podcast.
Here's an email from Anthony. "I've been fishing some blue lines in Michigan's northern lower peninsula using a hopper. The streams are thin and the water is crystal clear, which forces me to make longer casts. [00:21:30.579] With overhanging limbs and tight straightaways, I've had to cast directly upstream instead of using quarter casts. When I do, I'm noticing a lot of drag on my fly. Do you have any tips or techniques to help reduce drag in these conditions? Any advice would be much appreciated."
Well, Anthony, typically when you're fishing directly upstream, you have the least chance of drag because you're standing in the same current lane as the fish, unless your casts [00:22:00.240] are really long, and you're gathering that line as it comes back to you at the same speed as the current. So, a couple of things that might help. One is to make sure that your stripping line is just as fast as the current brings it back to the tip of your rod. No faster, no slower. You want to just keep gathering up that line as it comes to you. And the other time when you're going to have problems with drag fishing straight upstream is in the tail of a pool [00:22:30.920] because the water quickens in the tail of the pool, and when your fly lands, everything below it is going to be moving in faster current because the current picks up speed. And so, that's tough. The one thing you can do if you have to cast straight upstream in the tail of the pool is to use a parachute or a pile cast. That'll throw a little bit extra slack in your leader [00:23:00.079] and will give you a short but effective dead drift. Also, putting a longer tippet on so that it doesn't totally straighten, and your tippet lands in loose coils will help. If you don't know how to do that parachute or pile cast, you can go on to the Orvis Learning Center in the casting section, and Pete Kutzer has a great demonstration on making those two casts. So, I hope that helps.
Here's an email from Brian. [00:23:30.480] "Following your advice you gave on a podcast or elsewhere, I've been using a very short dropper off my dries when fishing mountain streams for brookies. The technique generally works great. However, I have found that in about 1 of 10 fish I hook and land to the net appear to be follow hooked by the dropper fly. My question is this. Am I likely follow hooking the fish during hook set or after? I can imagine it both ways. Perhaps the trout strikes the dry, then turns away and hook it with the dropper. Or are these highly active brookies follow-hooking [00:24:00.079] themselves sometimes during the time it takes me to land them in the net? Perhaps even spitting the hook of the dry only be follow hooked on the dropper."
Well, Brian, yeah, that is a problem, particularly with small brook drop, because they are so quick. It's spitting out a fly. They're quick to rise and they're quick to spitting out a fly. And by the time you react often, you will follow hook them. And also, they might be refusing the dry and they'll come up and splash at the dry [00:24:30.140] and you set the hook, and by that time your nymph is dragging along their back or belly. So, it happens a lot with a short leader in brook trout fishing because they are so quick. And I don't think it's happening during the fight. I think it's happening when you strike.
So, the one way to lessen this tendency is to tie your dropper to the eye of your dry fly instead of to the bend. But when you tie it to the [00:25:00.119] bend, your nymph is right in line with your dry fly, and so chances of follow hooking a fish are pretty great. If you tie it to the eye of the dry fly, you're probably going to follow fewer fish because it's off to the side a little bit and not directly in line. So, other than trying to set the hook just as quickly as you can...and that's hard with those little brookies. And you can't do anything about it. If they refuse a fly, [00:25:30.200] you can't do anything about it. So, I would try tying off the eye and see if that helps.
Here's an email from Griffin. "I'm from Portland, Maine, and was fishing and camping in an area. I accidentally dropped my fly box in the river and quickly fished it out. I tried my best to dry it out, but I was camping and the rain made it difficult. I also didn't take any flies out of my box. Would you throw out most of all these flies? I have a lot, so ideally, I do not want to throw them out. I also don't [00:26:00.460] see any rust on any of the flies. Thank you for your help and all you do for the sport."
So, Griffin, yeah, that's my greatest fear of falling in a river. It's not drowning. It's getting my fly boxes wet because, you know, if you have a bunch of streamers in there and they're made with dyed materials, the particularly black and brown, dye can migrate over onto the other flies and stain them. And rusty hooks are a definite [00:26:30.160] problem. And, you know, the flies will also get kind of bunged up because they're going to dry. If they're crushed into a fly box, they're going to dry and the hackles are going to be all pushed in one direction or another. So, if they're dry and you don't see any rust on the flies, you can take those flies and steam them back into shape. I actually bought an inexpensive travel steamer [00:27:00.400] for this purpose. I find doing it over the stove with a tea kettle is problematic and I often burn my hand a little bit.
So, what I would do is take a pair of forceps and steam the flies and then lay them out on a piece of paper towel or newspaper or something and let them dry. And they will steam back into shape pretty well. But if you do fall in and all your flies get wet, you've got to dry them out [00:27:30.140] somehow. You've got to, you know, ideally take every fly out and place it carefully on a piece of paper towel and let them dry naturally. If you can't do that, sometimes putting them on the dashboard of a car and turning on the defrost and turning on the heat and drying them off because a lot of those hooks will rust. So, you need to look very carefully at those flies to make sure the hooks haven't rusted. But if you're [00:28:00.259] camping and it's raining, that's pretty difficult because you probably don't want to put those flies near a campfire or something. So, you know, a car with a defroster is probably the best way to dry those out quickly.
Here's an email from Will. "I recently had the privilege of meeting you at a lecture you gave in Denver. One topic in particular you presented really got me thinking. You spoke about fly attitude to some degree. Maybe you introduced [00:28:30.259] this topic into the podcast before. So, pardon me if I asking you to cover this topic once again if it feels like a bit of a broken record. Would you mind? Also, should I stop drawing eyebrows on my Morris Hoppers?" Yeah, well, you can probably stop tying eyebrows on your Morris Hoppers.
Attitude. It's a word that I use for flies and it's just...I use it mainly with dry [00:29:00.099] flies and emergers. I use the term to describe the attitude the fly has in the surface film. So, different attitudes would be, you know, a high-floating dry fly like a Catskill dry fly or a wolf fly. That's got one attitude on the water that floats high and it's best when the flies are getting pushed around by the wind or they're twitching a lot on the surface. Hackled dry fly works best. And then a [00:29:30.019] different attitude would be like a parachute that sits down lower in the surface film, or a comparadun or a Sparkle Dun that is kind of half emerger half dry. And then another attitude would be a kind of a full-on emerger that that sits way down in the surface film. And then you could also with rising fish have a fly that actually is slightly under the surface where you use an unweighted fly, [00:30:00.359] but you don't put any fly floating on it. So, that's what I that's what I mean by attitude. And sometimes the attitude of the fly makes a big difference as opposed to exactly which fly pattern you have on. Hope that clears it up a little bit.
Tim: Hi, Tom. It's Tim here from Devon in the UK. I've got a fly box query for you, which is all to do with what happens or what you do when you guys stick your fly in a tree. I fish small streams [00:30:30.279] over here in the UK, typically 10 to 20, 30 feet wide, something like that, for wild brown trout. And as my skill is slowly progressing, I am challenging myself more and more with getting that big trout who's hanging out underneath an overhanging branch tucked right up against the bank. So, I am constantly finding myself getting hung up more and chucking my [00:31:00.114] fly right in that tree. So, depending on how much I like and value the fly and how many more spares I've got with me and how deep the pool is in the river is, sometimes I wade across and just like burn the pool, get trying to get my fly back. But sometimes if I can't get myself unstuck by flicking the rod, which you get sometimes work, sometimes doesn't, I just break myself off.
So, I was wondering if, is there a good [00:31:30.160] way of flicking the fly off, getting yourself unhooked, a nice trick which works more times than doesn't. And if there's not and you can't wade and you're going to have to break off, what's the best way of breaking off? At the moment, I just keep everything on the horizontal, pull directly towards me, and hope that it's just my tip it that I lose with my fly. Sometimes I seem to break higher up the leader itself, more into the leader [00:32:00.099] rather than the tip it that I put on. So, I'm not sure if that's a knot issue or a leader issue or what's going on there. But, yeah, if you could answer that, that'd be much appreciated. Love your podcast. Thank you so much for what you and everyone else who contributes does for fly fishing. It's just a great community and a great resource. Cheers."
Tom: Well, Tim, I think you're doing the right thing and I do the same thing. You know, if I'm [00:32:30.099] kind of done fishing that pool or I really want that fly, then I'll burn the pool and go and get it. If there's still a good fish feeding or I think there's a good fish in there and I've got a couple of spares of the fly pattern that I have on, then I'll probably break it off.
Now, there's a couple of ways to get a fly out of a bush. One is, and I am [00:33:00.240] so guilty of this, don't immediately yank on the fly to try to get it out. If you see the fly hanging up in a bush, stop, don't do anything. And then gently wiggle your rod tip, twitch and wiggle your rod tip. Sometimes that will get the fly out of the bush. And I'm so guilty of immediately yanking on the fly and then sticking it in deeper into a branch. So, don't do what [00:33:30.160] I do. You know, that's the best way. If you can't do it that way, yeah, point your rod tip straight at the fly. Don't bend your rod to yank on it, but either back up or put your rod down and pull on the line and get a straight pull. The one thing if you have a big fly or a weighted nymph or something hung up on that bush, [00:34:00.619] you want to turn your head when you break it off because you might get it back and it might come flinging right at you in the face. And you don't want that fly to hook you somewhere in your face.
If your leader is breaking up farther from the tip at knot, then, yeah, you got a knot problem, and you need to take more care in tying your knots because it should break off either at the fly or at the tip at knot. It's kind of 50-50 [00:34:30.280] where it breaks. But, yeah, if it's breaking further up on the leader, then you need to practice your knots. And make sure that you're not going more than... I don't like to go more than 1000th of an inch diameter when I tie one tip to another. I think that it's a lot stronger if you go no more than 1000. If you're going 2000ths of an inch, like if you're going from 3X to 5X, that knot isn't going to hold as [00:35:00.099] well. And I'd put a little piece of 4X in between the 3X and the 5X. So, hopefully that helps.
All right. That is the "Fly Box" for this week. Let's go talk to Melissa about possible mental health benefits of fly fishing. Well, my guest today is Melissa Ceren. And Melissa reached out to me because she is professionally [00:35:30.079] involved in mental health. And that's correct, right, Melissa?
Melissa: Yes, that is correct.
Tom: And she's also a fishing guide. Who do you guide for?
Melissa: Tumbling Trout in Lake George, Colorado.
Tom: Uh-huh. Okay. And so, you have an intersection of two things that are important to probably anybody listening to this podcast, mental health and fly fishing. And tell me what you do [00:36:00.179] professionally and what you have discovered about fly fishing and mental health.
Melissa: Sure. So, professionally as a counselor, I have my LPC, which means I'm a licensed professional counselor in the State of Colorado. I have a master's degree and years of supervision and experience in order to call myself that. I have a caseload of 20 to 25 clients each week. And then one [00:36:30.019] to two days a week I'll guide, especially in the summer when we're busier, I'll usually do two days of guiding. And what I've discovered is there's such an overlap between mental health and fly fishing. Not only are there benefits to fly fishing, like improvement in your mood and creating a sense of purpose and community, but there's also hardships that you have to overcome, which I'm sure we'll touch on today. So, [00:37:00.639] kind of some unexpected carryovers from there.
Tom: So, are some of your clients fly fishers?
Melissa: So, I...
Tom: Not your guiding clients, but your counseling clients.
Melissa: I oftentimes will have clients who have found me through some of my article writing on fly fishing. There's such a big community [00:37:30.380] of people in Colorado who fly fish. So, even if they don't fly fish regularly, they've heard of it or they have some sort of interest in it. And a lot of my clients will express interest in doing walk and talk therapy. So, we can walk next to a stream or go through a park and just do therapy, but on the go.
Tom: Mm-hmm. Okay. And so, what exactly have you discovered? What does fly fishing do [00:38:00.239] for people?
Melissa: So, I've found that it does a number of things. For myself, it has helped me tremendously to recover with some of my anxiety. So, whenever I'm on the water, and especially when I'm in the water, when I'm wadding, I found that it's kind of a meditative experience, right? You have to be fully in the moment in order to find success. If [00:38:30.260] you're distracted for a moment...I'm sure you've experienced this, Tom, where you missed the bite that you've been waiting an hour for. So, you really have to be present.
But I've also found, for myself and for others, that it encourages a sense of identity, some newfound confidence that you might not have in other areas of your life. So, I think it's a really broad subject that we can kind [00:39:00.059] of piece out together today with really wide-ranging benefits. I mean, you think about losing fish too, and how that makes you angry or frustrated. You get knots in the water, and you have to work through those negative things as well. It's not always rainbows and butterflies and big fish, right?
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm going to play devil's advocate a little bit on this.
Melissa: Oh, please do. I'd be happy that [inaudible 00:39:29.897].
Tom: As [00:39:30.539] I've warned you.
Melissa: Yes.
Tom: So, yeah, problem-solving and discovery, I guess, you know, learning is always good for your mental health. The meditative part of it. So, I don't meditate. I can't seem to meditate. I've tried it. And my wife and son meditate. And we often listen to a great podcast called "10% [00:40:00.420] Happier," with a guy named Dan Harris, who is an... It's an awesome podcast. And I do get a lot out of it. He talks about various things, but he often talks about meditation, and I kind of glaze over because... I don't know. I don't think I meditate, but I do fish a lot almost every day. But I don't think I'm meditating when I'm fishing. Tell me why you think it's [00:40:30.119] meditative. Why am I meditating when I'm fishing?
Melissa: Sure. Well, first of all, Tom, you are not alone. Meditation is really hard, and it's not for everybody. I actually hate the idea of sitting down and just sitting with my thoughts. I find that really cumbersome. So, meditation can also look like movement. It can look like fly fishing or walking. I think maybe even a better word that you might resonate more with is the idea [00:41:00.239] of flow. Have you heard of that subject before?
Tom: Yeah, I think it's been on one of his podcasts a number of times.
Melissa: Yeah, so I'm absolutely not the first person to think of this, but flow is the idea that we are so interested in an activity, or a passion, or a hobby, that we lose sense of time. We lose sense of time, and before you know it, you might have been fishing for five hours and missed dinner. [00:41:30.397] And this state of flow has been shown to improve happiness, purpose. It's this timelessness that I think maybe would resonate more than this idea of meditation as something where you sit down, and it's a very serious and labored experience.
Tom: Yeah, I like the flow idea because I've definitely missed dinner and meetings and other things. [00:42:00.380] I look at my watch, because I'm old-fashioned, I still wear a watch, and I say, "Oh, my God, it's 5:00. I thought it was like 2:00." So, I get that. I get the flow part of it. So, I guess I'm 10% happier about that issue.
Melissa: Good.
Tom: And so, what I want to discuss...because I think [00:42:30.179] right now, you and I are preaching to the choir, right? Anybody that listens to this podcast is a fly fisher. They've done it a little bit. And so, I think they get it. I think they get that most of the time fly fishing is beneficial for your mental health. The idea has been around for a while. And so, I think people get it. People listening to this get it. But [00:43:00.059] I'm going to counter that with the fact that fly fishing can also put you in a worse mental state.
And I can speak from personal experience. I think it's often the expectation of something that disappoints us, you know, you prepare for a trip and your expectations on a trip. No matter how many fishing [00:43:30.460] trips I've taken in my life, my expectations are always higher than the actual result. It happens every time. And I think, "Oh, I wish this had happened," or, "I should have done that." And there are times I know when I've come back from a fishing trip, whether it's in my backyard or another country, where I've come back [00:44:00.340] not in as good a state as when I left.
And so, I think that we need to temper this idea. It's not a panacea as you know. And people, unfortunately, and I think a lot of it due to social media, expect to catch a big fish. There's an emphasis all the time on big fish. And I think that people get disappointed when they go out to [00:44:30.159] a river that they saw somebody on, on Instagram, catching a 20-inch brown trout. And they come home and they only caught a 9 or a 10-inch brown trout. And they're bummed, they're disappointed because the river didn't meet their expectations, the experience didn't meet their expectations. Do you agree with that?
Melissa: Oh, 100%. And I really appreciate you bringing this light to it because, [00:45:00.760] you know, if people have those expectations and they see these representations of success, and we're only talking about mental health as being positive and fun and exciting and we're building confidence on the water, then they're going to say, you know, there's something wrong with me. That's just it.
Tom: Yeah, I went fly fishing and I was supposed to come back, you know, refreshed and in better mental state, and I come home, not a wreck, but disappointed [00:45:30.139] and not in a good state.
Melissa: Mm-hmm. Well, so what you're presenting is that, you know, fly fishing isn't meant to simply soothe the soul. Instead, fly fishing almost can represent this break in awareness that we have to have. I think in a lot of ways that can parallel therapy. So, oftentimes, clients [00:46:00.239] will come to me and they'll say, you know, "My expectations is I'm going to get better and it's going to look like continued progress." What I often see in therapy, and what a little metaphor that one of my clients gave me is that, "Melissa, you are literally ripping apart these festering wounds that I've had for years because of this trauma. And you're restitching it back in a way that it can feel properly." And so, if we think about fly fishing and adverse [00:46:30.400] experiences on the water in that lens, we might have a false sense of confidence or set of expectations, not only for fly fishing, but for relationships in our life and our work and all of this. And without something that challenges us to be uncomfortable and to increase our awareness, we might not grow in those areas.
Tom: Yeah, that consistency is a good point. For instance, [00:47:00.420] if I'm going on a trip, let's say I'm going down to Cape Cod to fish for striped bass because I love that and it's not that far away, but it's a four-hour drive, so, you know, it's a ways to go. And I never, ever go for a single day because I know that out of three days, probably two of them are going to be lousy [00:47:30.124] because of the weather and the fish and the barometer and the moon phase and whatever. So, I never plan a trip like that when I'm going for less than three days just because I think that, you know, you remember that one good day. And I think that sometimes people go and they've been looking forward to this trip and they go for a day and, you know, things aren't great, conditions aren't great, mother nature throws a lot of curves at us. And I think [00:48:00.239] that sometimes when people go on a single-day trip, it can be disappointing.
Melissa: Absolutely. With my fly-fishing clients, I start out the day and I set expectations with them. I first ask them, "What's your goal? Do you want me to teach you all these new knots and techniques? Or do you simply just want to catch fish and you don't care about learning these things?" So, we set our goals together, and then [00:48:30.000] I set the expectations. "You're fishing in a really difficult watershed. And especially if it's your first time, that's going to affect your odds. Even if you're experienced, you might not have a great day. The barometric pressure might be off. You know, we cannot control this. But what we can control is how you take advantage of your experience. Looking at the flowers, taking a moment to be in the water, and just enjoy the scenery." [00:49:00.239] These are the things that we can set ourselves up for success. And even for myself, you know, when I'm going to the water, you know, I fish a particular river 100 times, and right now, it's fishing really well, I have to talk, do this, you know, self-talk thing. You know, I might not catch anything today and that's going to be okay. And I have to set myself up for that instead of, "I'm going to catch another huge 20-inch brown."
Tom: [00:49:30.219] So, you have to kind of do some self-therapy before you start, right?
Melissa: Absolutely. Yeah. And it's a practice. And what I mean by practice is the same thing I mean by practicing anything like fly fishing, for example. It doesn't just come naturally. You have to be intentional about the ways in which you interact with the world and the way in which you talk to yourself to increase your success. And when I say success, that doesn't necessarily mean big [00:50:00.539] fish. That could just mean leaving the water with a positive attitude, even when you didn't catch a big fish.
Tom: But can you force yourself to think like that? Can you really say, "Okay, I'm just going to look at the flowers and the birds today, and I don't really care if I catch a fish or not." Can you talk yourself into that? I don't know if I can.
Melissa: Well, [00:50:30.185] I think about... You know, Tom, I've listened to your podcast before and I know that you like foraging, right?
Tom: Yeah.
Melissa: So, finding a mushroom that you hadn't found before, one that is just like for the picking. That can be kind of your pivotal moment of the day. So, I'm just seeking out these moments.
Tom: Seeking out different moments as opposed to fishing success.
Melissa: Absolutely.
Tom: What happens if I don't find a mushroom?
Melissa: [00:51:00.523] Oh, no. It would be a horrible day. I mean, that's a good point. And frankly, just like life, not every fishing excursion is going to be good. And so, when we talk about mental health, it's again, not just happiness and excitement. I think there's a lot of growth that can happen from having a mediocre day or even a really [00:51:30.179] bad day and just allowing yourself to be okay with that.
Tom: Easier said than done, though.
Melissa: Oh, 100%. And that's why...
Tom: I know I'm pushing you. I'm looking for some advice here.
Melissa: Oh, yes.
Tom: This is Tom's therapy session.
Melissa: It's turning into a therapy session.
Tom: Yeah. My...
Melissa: I mean, I say it to you now, and it's something that I struggle with, too. But more and more, I'm finding more success [00:52:00.099] with that as I'm broadening my idea of what enjoying life looks like.
Tom: Yeah. Maybe broadening your idea of what a day on the river or on a lake should be is a good thing to think about.
Melissa: Yeah. When we think about what we call thought errors or cognitive distortions, it's part of cognitive behavioral therapy that a lot of therapists [00:52:30.300] use. There is one cognitive distortion of, "Should," the should statement. They say you're shoulding on yourself. So, when you're shoulding on yourself, you're creating these expectations of 1000 different factors that you can't actually control. You can't control if you get a flat tire on the way to your fishing day.
Tom: Right. Right. [00:53:00.639] And there's so many variables in nature, in fly fishing, there's so many variables involved.
Melissa: Mm-hmm. And so, that...
Tom: So...
Melissa: I'm sorry, go ahead.
Tom: No, sorry, go ahead.
Melissa: Well, I just was thinking that that is another opportunity for growth, therapeutic growth, even when we are struggling to have a good day. The aspects of self-compassion, you know, saying things like, "There are [00:53:30.019] a lot of factors I can't control. That doesn't mean I'm bad at fishing." Instead of in your mind saying, "I'm horrible at fishing. All these years I've wasted, I haven't gotten any better, yada, yada, yada." Instead of, you know, having self-compassion and remembering examples of when you have had success or when you have had difficult times and you persisted.
Tom: You must have been talking to my wife because I'll come home some days and say, "God, why am I doing this stuff with podcasts [00:54:00.539] and writing and all this stuff? I can't even catch a fish."
Melissa: She's in.
Tom: She'll tell you.
Melissa: She does.
Tom: She's heard it many times.
Melissa: Yes, absolutely. And I don't want to... To hear you say that, Tom, like, I just have so much respect for you as an angler and as a representative of our industry. Everybody has bad dates. And whether [00:54:30.239] or not you talk about and show those bad days is one thing. You know, you mentioned earlier, there's so much...and I catch myself doing this too, just posting big fish and saying how good of a time it's been. But that's not usually the case.
Tom: Yeah, tell me about it. We all have those... People that write into the podcast think I don't have days like that. It's like, "Come on."
Melissa: [00:55:00.395] Yeah, it's this weird belief that surely, I am less than somebody else. I think that's a really persistent belief that we have in our society. But when it comes down to it, sometimes you have a lucky day and you just have the right fly on and you're in the right conditions at the right time. Surely there is skill, absolutely, that goes into it, but again, all those uncontrollables, [00:55:30.494] we all experience those.
Tom: All right. You've talked me into it. Good therapy session. Now, let's talk about helping other people. So, you have a fishing buddy and you're going fishing. And let's say you're in a good place. You've lowered your expectations and you're going to have a good time. But you go fishing with somebody else and you can see that they're just [00:56:00.599] getting more and more frustrated and upset and disappointed in themselves. How can you help a friend or a fishing buddy or a client, for that matter, to salvage the day so that their mental health is in a better place when they get off the river?
Melissa: I think the tendency of every good person is to be like, "Hey," you know, "It's just fishing. It's [00:56:30.280] fine." It's like, "You'll catch a fish next time." But what is actually helpful is to just sit with them in the muck, literally or figuratively sit with them in the muck, right? Acknowledge how much it sucks. Like, you're trying really hard. Your drifts look great. I think there's a lot of value to sitting down and taking a break. We get so tunnel vision when you're not having success on the water that I think it really does decrease [00:57:00.559] our odds of actually hooking into a fish. Because we're not seeing the scene that is right in front of us, or a potential small change that could make the difference. So, taking a break. I honestly always recommend a snack and some water because chances are you probably have a friend who hasn't eaten or had water because they're wanting to catch a fish so badly. And that's tremendously impacting their [00:57:30.039] mood as well.
Tom: Yep. There are times when I'm unhappy that I quit smoking because that's a good time for a cigarette.
Melissa: Isn't it? How do you...
Tom: How about... Sorry, sorry, go ahead.
Melissa: No, no. You can go.
Tom: How about some specific examples, either with a friend or with a client? Give me some... [00:58:00.659] Tell me some stories about how you turned the day around for people mentally.
Melissa: Let me think about this for a second. Okay, I'm thinking about a fly-fishing client who entered the day and they kind of had a sour mood to them and I figured, you know, something else is probably going on, it's not personal. They're probably excited for the day. We [00:58:30.559] start fishing. And within probably 30 minutes or so, they land a rainbow trout and they don't look too excited. And I'm thinking, "Oh, maybe the size of the fish," or, you know, "We got to change the scenery."
But instead of going into this fixer mentality, I just kind of checked in with them. I said, "How are you feeling? Are you enjoying this? Something [00:59:00.260] going on?" And they actually started tearing up and shared with me that this is the first time that they've been out since their mom had passed. And I hadn't known that. Yeah. And so, opening that conversation, all of a sudden sitting with her in that difficulty, she kept fishing and she caught one or two more and she began to smile. And she looked at me and she [00:59:30.000] said, "Well, so this is the first time I've smiled since my mom passed."
Tom: Oh, wow. It must have been a great day for you and her.
Melissa: It was. It was one of those days you don't forget.
Tom: Yeah. All right. How about some other ones, some difficult clients that just...you know, they were tangling on every cast or they were hooking bottom and, you know, what happened?
Melissa: Sure. [01:00:00.619] So, I'm thinking about... Oh, gosh, I'm like, I'm hoping they're not listening to this podcast and feeling like I didn't do them justice.
Tom: Well, we won't mention any names. Don't worry about it.
Melissa: Okay. No names. Let's see. I'm thinking about how early on encouragement is so instrumental to the rest of the day. And so, I'm thinking about one client who [01:00:30.044] is just clear to me because I have, you know, the therapist side that they didn't have super high confidence. And that was just evident through the way they talked with me and their body language. And they had never fly fished before. And once I started teaching them, sure, it was, you know... Whenever we all first started it was a little rusty. But I started encouraging them like, "Wow," you know, "That was a really good drift," or "You're catching on to this really quickly."
And so, all [01:01:00.039] of a sudden, I saw this visual indication that they were gaining confidence, and when they're starting to catch fish. And by the end of the day, they have this huge smile on their face. And they looked like a totally different person from when they had started the day. And so, we think about, you know, the victories of building up to a large fish. But you can also think about the psychological victories of turning around a day for a client because you never know how that could [01:01:30.719] be integrated into how they view themselves now. "I tried something new and I actually wasn't bad at it. I was catching fish and doing well and listening to instructions. Well, maybe I can do this other thing that I was scared of in my life."
Tom: Yeah, I've seen that happen too. So, what happens if that doesn't work?
Melissa: If they continue to be negative with themselves?
Tom: Yeah. Yeah [01:02:00.358].
Melissa: You know, it's interesting that you ask that because, myself, and I think a lot of us always have what I said was like a fixer mentality. Like, I have to make them have a good day. And it's my responsibility to make them happy. You know, to a degree as a guide, you want to facilitate and create a space and opportunities that make them happy. But I can't [01:02:30.059] take that on fully myself. And so, mentally, I have to say to myself, "I'm going to treat this person with respect, dignity, and teach them what I can. But at the end of the day, if they don't have a good time, that is not my responsibility." And so, you can kind of say the same with your friends, too. You love them and you want them to be happy and you're going to, you know, sit in the muck with them, and be there for them. But at the end of the day, if they're just not having [01:03:00.260] a good day, it kind of does some more harm than good to try to change that. Sometimes we just have to sit in the bad emotions until they've passed.
Tom: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that sitting in the muck is a great idea, whether it's a client or just a friend. I think that just sitting down and having a drink of water and a snack is one of the best things you can do.
Melissa: Mm-hmm. It's so human, too, right? You're seeing them for their [01:03:30.139] experience. You're not seeing them as a problem or as an inconvenience, right?
Tom: Yeah.
Melissa: How they're affecting your day on the water because you've been having a great day and they're having a horrible one. Instead, you're able to hold, "Hey, I'm having a great day, but I'm going to sit with this person and see them as a person with their own set of experiences that they're entitled to."
Tom: And how can you help lower their expectations? [01:04:00.159] Let's say you have a really results-driven, type A personality, and they want to catch a big fish or they want to catch a lot of fish, whatever. How do you temper those and lower those expectations as a guide or as a friend?
Melissa: So, I have a fellow guide who has [01:04:30.031] framed chances at fish as opportunities. So, saying to clients, "You're going to have opportunities today. I know this, right? You're going to have opportunities to succeed." And switching that to, "You're going to catch a lot of fish and they're going to be huge," and da, da, da, "You're going to have some opportunities in this river [01:05:00.039] system. There's some medium-sized fish," or, "We're going to... One where you might expect to catch or have opportunities at a lot of fish." Or maybe, "You'll have an opportunity that we're hoping one fish for the whole day and it's going to be huge and you might lose it," right? And so, always, especially if you have a guest or you have a client, you're framing this as there's the potential rather than there's [01:05:30.019] a guarantee.
"And the weather looks great. We're going to this beautiful place." And so, that becomes part of the experience as well, not just the fish. If you walk into the fly shop and you say to the client, "We're going to catch so many huge fish today," that, "It's been fishing great. I know exactly what to use." And then you get there, and for whatever reason, you're scrambling to catch even one small one, [01:06:00.099] then you've done a disservice to that client or the friend or whatever.
Tom: Yeah. I've seen those days.
Melissa: Yeah. I have too.
Tom: Yeah, I bet you have.
Melissa: Yeah.
Tom: Do you find that... Do you know birds and geology and wildflowers well enough to pull somebody aside and show them a bird or a particular wildflower, [01:06:30.500] even in turning over rocks and looking at insects during the day?
Melissa: I do. I have always had a tremendous fascination and appreciation for our ecosystems. I love birds. I had a stage in my life for probably about two or three years where I only went out to go look for birds. I am an artist as well. And so, I [01:07:00.019] create butterflies, watercolors, and colored-pencil drawings. And so, I've really invested myself in understanding the beauty of these small creatures that are in our environment. Because, per our earlier conversation, they helped to create those moments.
Like for instance, if it's been a bad fishing day and then you go back to camp...and [01:07:30.039] this happened the other day. It was a good fishing day though, which doesn't serve for my example. But we saw four evening grosbeaks in a tree right next to camp. And although I caught fish that day, that was actually my highlight. These beautiful birds that you don't see very often. They travel throughout the year. And so, that helps to enrich the experience too, because it's kind of the idea of, the more you look, the more you see. [01:08:00.081] And if you know that there's a difference between birds and mushrooms and insect life, you're going to be more excited from the fact that you're seeing this variation. And I'm sure, Tom, you know well with mushrooms. When you see a particular mushroom like a morel or chanterelle, you're so excited because you know what that means for you, right?
Tom: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that advice to anyone [01:08:30.640] who has been frustrated in fly fishing is to start learning some of these other pieces of the ecosystem, whether it's birds or insects or even geology. I mean, we're always walking over stones. And I wish I knew geology better. I've tried to teach myself over the years and I'm still not very good at it. But you look at [01:09:00.520] a stone on the bottom and you say, "Wow, where did that stone come from? What kind of stone is that? And how is it formed?" And I think that if people have those skills or, at least, a desire to learn about those things, I think that that can make a bad day a little more enjoyable.
Melissa: Yeah, I think this is a really important addition to the conversation, Tom. I really appreciate you bringing that up.
Tom: [01:09:30.260] Yeah, and you know, it requires a little preparation and a little study beforehand. But, you know, there's so many apps you can have on your phone now that you can, you know, turn on Merlin and find out what bird that is you hear. And I've showed that app to so many people. And, you know, they're just blown away by how cool it is, even if you can't see the bird, you can hear them.
Melissa: What's fascinating [01:10:00.300] to me, too, is starting to look into something like birds or foraging or insects. You have that same hang-up that you do when you first learn to fly fish. "Should I do this?" There's a lot of people that are already really good at this. I'm not sure I could get to that level. At this point in my life, I know a lot of birds. But I started...I had no idea. I knew a Robin and a Cardinal and that was about it. But [01:10:30.479] all I did was I spent time, and I had experiences outside where I was using Merlin and identifying birds successfully, and just stumbling through those initial phases. And that's how I've gotten to the point where I know a lot of birds.
And I think the same is really important to remember for fly fishing. You see all these people having great success. What you don't see is the hours they put in, the opportunities they have to go out on the water. [01:11:00.100] If someone's able to go out and look for birds or go out and fish three days a week and you can only do it once a month, of course, they're going to be better than you. There is some degree of innate skill with certain things like eyesight, for instance, that's helpful to be able to spot birds. But it's not impossible if you don't have great eyesight. So, there's this innateness to skill, but it's mostly experience. [01:11:30.180] Because let's say somebody who doesn't have great eyesight, they might have great hearing, and so, they can identify bird sounds. And they'll be able to do that through repeated exposure to being outside. Same is true for fly fishing. Just about experience.
Tom: Yeah, absolutely it is. Well, Melissa, this has been fun and fascinating. And I [01:12:00.420] think you're going to help me get into a better place the next time I get frustrated. And I hope that other people feel the same way. And, you know, I'm going to spend more time noticing other things. Like, we all stare at the water too much when we're fishing and count our success in number of fish or size of fish. And [01:12:30.512] although there are people that say, "I wish I could be like this." Or people say, "Oh, I don't need to catch a fish. I just like being out there." I think they're lying. I think you got to, at least, catch one fish to feel good about it.
Melissa: Yeah, I kind of agree. If I haven't caught a fish, I'm a little sulky at the end of the day.
Tom: Yeah. So, okay. So, what [01:13:00.140] do you do at the end of... Let's say you have one of those sulky days. What do you do? What do you do when you get off the water?
Melissa: So, I just kind of sit with it and just acknowledge, "Yeah, this sucks." And I plan something to look forward to that night. Like, "Okay, this sucks. I'm going to have Thai food tonight." Or, "I'm going to play the video game that I've wanted to play for a long time." So, I kind of seek that dopamine in a [01:13:30.000] healthy way. I try not to turn to things like smoking or drinking when I'm not doing well because that creates bad patterns. But I try to salvage the day while also sitting with the negative emotion. Because if we didn't have negative emotion, I think about pleasure by contrast, I don't know if we would feel the same highs that we do.
Tom: Yeah, true.
Melissa: [01:14:00.619] If we always caught big fish, what would be the point?
Tom: Yeah. We wouldn't know what success looked like, would we?
Melissa: Exactly. Yeah. And I appreciate your comment about this conversation changing your approach when you're personally fishing. And I just want to encourage you and myself and any viewer or listener that it just [01:14:30.220] takes one moment of changing your thoughts. So, one moment where you say, "Wait a second, I can look at other things. I can look at birds or I can sit down on the bank and take a rest," to allow yourself to pull away just for a moment from all it takes and to listen to that and to follow that at least one time and see how you feel. If it doesn't work, keep fishing [01:15:00.279] hard. If it doesn't work, keep fishing hard. But maybe it actually makes you enjoy your outlets more. If that's the worst-case scenario that you might enjoy fishing a little bit more, maybe you should just take that chance.
Tom: Yeah. No, I think you're absolutely right. And I think that all of us need to take that to heart. And even the [01:15:30.119] best anglers have lousy days, believe me. I fish with people that are better than me and I've seen them have lousy days. And now, I'm going to sit down in the muck with them and see if we can salvage the day.
Melissa: I don't want to either forget about the importance of laughter, too. Obviously, you don't want to laugh right away when someone's having a really bad day when you're sitting [01:16:00.100] in the muck with them. And then maybe just looking at the hilarity of the experience, or just having a laugh about... I think back to my friend. She had caught a few fish, but she had a big one on. And all of a sudden, I see her fly go back out of the fish that she was fighting and into the tree behind her. And I couldn't hold in my laughter. I knew she was not happy and I wouldn't have been either. I've [01:16:30.260] experienced that before. But I just started laughing at the hilarity of the experience and she did, too. And it just turned around what could have been a really bad moment.
Tom: Yeah, you're right. Laughter is important. I can think of my favorite fishing buddies in the world, and all of them have a great sense of humor. If I fished with somebody who was really serious all day long, [01:17:00.257] I don't think I'd enjoy it very much. So, I mean, some of the best laughs we've had are on the river, definitely.
Melissa: Yeah, you think about the stories afterwards, too.
Tom: Yeah, you know, after the fact, sometimes the stories about a really lousy trip can be therapeutic in the future.
Melissa: I agree. Yeah, maybe not in the moment. But looking back on it and laughing about [01:17:30.399] the swarm of the insects that you couldn't get away from, or when you missed your flight and you had to do something wild and crazy to get to your destination. I mean, catching big fish always makes...not always, but sometimes makes memories, but so do the sulky experiences, too.
Tom: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. The story that my fishing buddy, Sean Combs, and I keep coming back to, and we retell [01:18:00.020] this so many times, is one day we went fishing in this trout stream that he knew that was about two and a half hours away. And he was promising me that this was going to be great and there were going to be big fish. I had never fished it. And we got into all these pools and he said, "Boy, it used to be deeper in here. I don't know what happened. It used to be deeper." And we ended up catching three or four stupid hatchery fish. And so, we said, "Okay, let's salvage this. Let's go carp fishing on the way home." [01:18:30.380] We had bigger rods and carp flies in the car. And I think we toured half of New York State on our way back from this stream. And we tried... Oh, God, we must have stopped at six different places to try to find carp and we didn't find any carp. What a disastrous trip, but that's the one we talk about the most.
Melissa: Yeah. Isn't that funny?
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa: It's weird how those experiences stick [01:19:00.239] out in our mind. And sometimes misery loves company, right?
Tom: Yeah.
Melissa: It wouldn't have been a better story if you had caught five carp and he hadn't caught any, I wouldn't have made such a good story.
Tom: No, it would have been horrible. It would have been horrible. I never would have brought it up again. But it would have been him that caught the carp, not me.
Melissa: Oh, okay.
Tom: Because he's better than me. [crosstalk 01:19:25.505] All right. Well, Melissa, this was really great. And I [01:19:30.239] appreciate you reaching out to me and taking the time. And it was a really fun discussion. And I hope that some of my listeners have a better day because they listened to this podcast. And I know they will.
Melissa: Yeah, I really appreciate you having me and giving me the opportunity to shed some light on this topic. This is just a jumping off point I hope for a lot of you listening. And if this inspires you, [01:20:01.020] go try something new over the river or seek a therapist. There's a lot of great resources out there.
Tom: Yeah, or just keep fishing harder, right?
Melissa: Or just keep fishing harder and maybe be a little bit miserable, but that's if you like.
Tom: All right, Melissa, thank you so much. We've been talking to Melissa Ceren of Colorado Fishing Guide and Therapist, sometimes both at the same time, I [01:20:30.359] imagine. And I really appreciate it.
Melissa: Thanks, Tom. I hope you have a good day.
Tom: You too. Thanks, Melissa.
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