How to Fly Fish from a Paddleboard, with Peter Laurelli

Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And my guest this week is Peter Laurelli. And Peter is a filmmaker. He's done some really interesting films about fly fishing in [00:00:30.920] New York City, and also, Peter did an incredible film about fishing from a paddleboard in salt water, off the northeast coast. And you might think Peter is crazy for doing that, but he picked his days and his waters carefully. And there's some amazing footage in this film, which I will put in the description of the podcast, so that you can watch it yourself. But Peter spent a lot of time not only fishing from a paddleboard, [00:01:00.159] but flying a drone, and operating a camera, and he has a lot of tips for us on why fishing from a paddleboard is a really efficient and fun way to fly fish. And if you can do it on the northeast coast, you can do it just about anywhere in water that's not moving, and water that's moving slowly. So, I know this is the wrong time of year to talk about fishing from a paddleboard, for most of us in [00:01:30.180] the colder parts of the country, but there's people in the southern part of the United States that are listening to this, and also, you might just wanna file this away, and save it for spring or summer. Also, probably paddleboards are gonna be on sale this time of year, so it might be a good time, if you think you're interested in fly fishing from a paddleboard, might be a good time to pick one up.
And before we start the Fly Box, just a few announcements. [00:02:00.080] I'm gonna be at the Orvis River Road store, in Richmond, Virginia, on January 9th. And I have a presentation that'll go from 6:00 to 7:30, but also, I'll probably be there in the afternoon, so if you wanna stop in and chat, I love to talk to podcast listeners in person. Stop by the Orvis River Road store, in Richmond, Virginia, on January 9th. [00:02:30] And then the following two days, I'll be at the Virginia Wine and Fly Fishing Festival, January 10th and 11th. I'll be doing presentations. Some of them are a little more smaller, exclusive, paid presentations that you can sign up for, and then, once a day, I'll be doing a free, open-to-the-public presentation. And I always enjoy the show. It's a lot of fun. It's a family-oriented show, and look forward to seeing you there. Also, later [00:03:00.639] in the month, January 24th and 25th, I'll be joining the Orvis product developers at the fly fishing show in New Jersey. And we're gonna do something interesting. We're gonna do a live, in-person Fly Box, on January 24th and 25th, Friday and Saturday, at the New Jersey show. We don't know exactly what time, but I'm gonna be joined with a product developer [00:03:30.500] or two, and you can ask me questions, or you can ask the product developers questions, and it'll be like a live Fly Box, so it'll be a cool place to get your questions answered in person.
And one final announcement. We are reinstating the fly tying tie-off with Cheech and Tim Flagler. This is gonna return January 13th, 2025, at [00:04:00.020] 3 p.m. Eastern time, and we're gonna tie the Goddard Caddis. We haven't done a tie-off in a while. I had some surgery, and Cheech had some surgery, and we had some other things that prevented us from a lot of travel, that prevented us from doing the live tie-offs, but we're trying to start our monthly tie-offs again, and we hope you join us on January 13th. You can watch it live on either the [00:04:30.000] Orvis Facebook page or on YouTube. So, stay tuned for more information on that.
Oh, and one final announcement. We got a lot of announcements this week. Sorry. You're always asking me about places to fish, and times of year to fish, and what kind of flies you should take, and I often don't answer those questions unless I really know a lot about a particular area. But if you're [00:05:00.060] looking for a special fishing adventure this year, you should check out the Orvis Adventures page. And in coming months, we're gonna be introducing you to some of the Orvis-endorsed operations that you might wanna plan a fishing trip with. Now, this'll range from kind of exotic, expensive international trips to local guides that might be in your area, so it's gonna be a wide range of different [00:05:30.540] operations. We personally vet each one of these lodges or outfitters or guides. We wanna make sure that they provide you, our customers and our friends, with a high degree of knowledge of their fishery, excellent teaching skills, great hospitality, and also a commitment to safe and sustainable practices. We visit them on a regular basis to make sure that the operations are still what we initially [00:06:01.319] saw. So, you can trust that you're gonna be getting the best that the fly fishing world has to offer with these operations. And if you wanna find out where they are, there's a really cool interactive map on our website that'll help you plan these trips, in North America and around the world. So, if you just go to orvis.com/adventures, you'll find these, over 200 [00:06:30.060] endorsed partners, from Alaska to the Seychelles, and everywhere in between. And I can guarantee that somewhere in there you're gonna find an Orvis fly fishing adventure that's just perfect for you. So, we're gonna be, I'm gonna be giving you some suggestions, coming soon, on different operations that you can take a look at.
Finally got all those announcements out of the way. Now we can do the Fly Box. And if you have a question for the [00:07:00.160] Fly Box, you can send it to me at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. Either just type your question in your email, or you can attach a voice file, and if I can answer it, I'll read it on the air. I don't answer them all, but I do read them all.
The first question is an email from John. "I've started tying my own leaders, and like to make about a 6-foot butt section in advance, let's say 15 pound to 12 pound to 8 pound, [00:07:30.220] and then put on a tippet ring. This way, I can add tippet as I need for the application, with only a clinch knot and maybe a surgeon's knot or two for tags. Ninety-nine percent of the time, I break off below the tippet ring. Yesterday, somehow my tippet ring came untied, and I'm standing in the water, wondering what to do. No way I'm dealing with tippet rings out there. I feel the 8-pound was too heavy for a good surgeon's knot to my tippet. I'm terrible at blood knots. So I made a small perfection loop in the leader, I guess [00:08:00.060] I could have done a surgeon's loop as well, and used it like a tippet ring. That is, tied my tippet to the loop with a clinch knot, not a loop to loop. I know Dom at Troutbitten does something similar with his leader to fly line. It seemed to work okay. When I got home, I started going through my rigs, to fix all the inevitable issues after a day of fishing, with the intention of cutting off the loop and adding a ring. But I thought, why? Maybe I can just use it as-is. What do you think?" [00:08:30.160]
Well, John, I think you could use it as-is. The perfection loop, I find, is not a really strong knot in finer materials, and I don't have any hard data on that. It's just that when I tie a perfection loop in something like 2X or 3X or 4X, it doesn't seem to hold that well. So, if I were you, I'd try a surgeon's loop. It's a little bit easier to tie anyways, just basically a double overhand loop. I [00:09:00.159] think that might be a better loop. And you wanna make them small, because if you make them too big, it's gonna be a little bit more air-resistant, and that knot is gonna possibly catch on things, and possibly tangle your leader. So, it's not a bad idea. It certainly works. Your tippet ring, I think, is gonna be a little cleaner. But also, John, you really ought to learn to tie that blood knot, because it's a wonderful, clean, [00:09:30.480] very strong knot. A five-turn blood knot is what I use, and what most guides use. And practice it at home, get to know it, and then next time you lose a tippet ring, you can just use a blood knot.
Trey: Hey, Tom. This is Trey from Wyoming. I was just listening to your recent Backcast episode from your backlog. And there is a guy talking about how he caught a tiger trout more than 30 miles away from where [00:10:00.120] they stocked it, and you were speculating that potentially it was a rare wild tiger trout that had been bred in the wild, or maybe it was stocked without being recorded. But here in Wyoming, I had an experience, and I've gotta say, Wyoming's pretty dang good about recording most of their stocking efforts. They stocked tiger trout in a high mountain lake, in a drainage that I like to fish. And I've caught them there for years, at least five years. And just this fall, [00:10:30.639] and I caught one in the summer as well, I started catching them in the lower reaches of the drainage, which is about, oh, 25 miles or so from where they're stocked in the mountains. And I'm very certain that they came out of that lake, because, like I say, the game and fish is very good about recording their stocking efforts. And yeah, they just started popping up. My theory is that they aren't motivated by spawning. So, if they get pushed out by runoff, I feel like they just stay where they're at until [00:11:00.059] the next runoff, and keep getting pushed down. I would think that the only thing that would send them back up is potentially water temperatures. But that's just a theory. Anyway, I was hoping maybe I could shed some light on that, just with my experience of catching them super far below, and knowing that they were not stocked there. Have a good one.
Tom: Thank you, Trey. It's amazing that a tiger trout would go that far from where they are stocked, but you never know. And so, I think I said in the time before that I doubted [00:11:30.240] that a tiger trout would move that far, but apparently they do. Maybe they have more wanderlust than other trout. Of course, rainbow trout will for sure move that far. Browns and Brookies, not so much. But thank you very much for sharing that experience with us.
All right. Another email. This one's from Frank. "Hey, Tom. I often fish dry dropper setup, with a size 10 [00:12:00.379] stimulator or Chernobyl Ant, and a size 14 beaded nymph or something smaller. Usually I'll use 5X tippet for the dropper. But wondering if it would help to use 6X or even 7X tippet, so I get less drag on the dry, and more natural movement on the dropper. It's pretty rare for me to hook a 3-pound trout, so I don't think break-off is a big issue." Well, Frank, yeah, you know, "thin for the win" is what the competition anglers say. And the [00:12:30.059] thinner your tippet, the easier that fly is gonna sink, the quicker it's gonna sink. If you're not that interested in getting the fly down quickly, if you're in a little bit slower water, sometimes just using a longer 5X will do the job too. But, you know, as long as you feel that the knots will hold, and that you can play a fish quickly on those 6X and 7X tippets, yeah, it probably will give you [00:13:00.080] a little bit better drift with your nymph. Just be careful that you don't play the fish too long, because you're gonna have a fairly light tippet on the end there. But I think it'll work fine.
Here's an email from Daniel, from Galveston, Texas. "My friend of 45 years gave me a custom-made 3 weight 7-foot 7-inch fiberglass rod for Christmas. He said to be sure I put a quality reel on there. My only experience with reels has been another brand. He knows how much I like to [00:13:30.000] fish for panfish, and he said this rod should be a lot of fun. I live in southeast Texas, and will most likely use this in the local ponds and creeks. Most fishing will be warm water. Can you recommend a quality reel that won't break the bank, and what line would you suggest? I typically fish poppers, hoppers, Bully Bluegill Spiders, and small streamers."
Well, Daniel, the line is easy. Just get yourself a standard [00:14:00.240] weight forward floating line. I would get the best line you can afford. As you go toward the more expensive lines, like the pro trout, you're gonna get line that shoots better, casts a little bit better, and is gonna float a little bit better. But for what you're doing, probably mostly your casts are relatively short, and I think any weight forward floating line would work, even with your streamers. Just use a little bit longer leader, and you'll be able to [00:14:30.039] get your streamers down. As far as the reel's concerned, that's pretty easy too. You can put any reel you want on it. You're not gonna be using your drag very much, and your reel is gonna be basically a line holder, but you want your reel to look nice, and you want it to sound nice. I think for your purposes, the Clearwater reel, the smaller Clearwater reel, it's just over a hundred bucks, [00:15:00.100] is a really great value, and it's a good-looking reel. You can go more expensive if you want. What you get in the more expensive reels, the Clearwater reel is a cast reel, and it's painted, so nicks and scratches are gonna occur more often than you would with a bar stock aluminum reel that has been anodized. It's gonna be a lot harder finish on that reel, and you're gonna get a smoother drag on the more expensive reels. But again, you don't really [00:15:30.000] need that. You just want a reel that looks good and you're proud of. So, the Clearwater reel's a good reel, and it's actually gonna be... Don't tell anybody I told you this, but it's actually going to be replaced by a new Clearwater reel that's coming out in March. If you can wait for March, it's a better-looking reel than the current Clearwater. It'll have a sealed drag, as opposed to the non-sealed drag in the current [00:16:00.080] Clearwater, and it's gonna be about the same price and it's a little bit better-looking. So, just don't tell anybody I told you, but there's gonna be a great new Clearwater reel coming out in March.
Here's an email from Shane. "Love the show. What's your take on tandem streamer setups? I feel the times when the trout are just looking or swiping at my streamer, but not committing, drive-bys, a second smaller trailing streamer may provoke a strike. At other times, it may increase the rate of foul [00:16:30.080] hookups. If I use a larger articulated streamer as my first fly, what patterns do you suggest for the trailer? I like Platte River spiders, but I need to add more variety. Please let me know how or when you like to use tandem streamer rigs, if at all."
Well, yeah, Shane, I do occasionally. You know, actually I find that when fish are short-striking streamers, and they're not really committing, there's not much you can do, and even a smaller streamer on the [00:17:00.039] end, some days they're just bumping them. I recently did a video on that, that'll be out next year, but it was in Chile, and I missed, or did not connect with 23 trout in a row, on a streamer. And I probably should have tried a smaller streamer as a tandem, but I didn't. There's some days when fish just do that. So, yeah, and, you know, I'm [00:17:30.380] often torn, because it makes more sense to have the bigger streamer as the lower fly, so it looks like a bigger fish chasing a smaller fish, but that doesn't cast very well, and it's kind of clunky, so most of us, when we use two streamers, use a bigger fly as the upper fly, the one closest to your fly line and the rest of your leader, and then tie on a dropper with a smaller fly. And you can mix [00:18:00.220] this up however you want, maybe two different types, like maybe a muddler type on the upper fly and then a slimmer wooly bugger type on the lower fly. You can try a bright fly on the upper and a dark fly on the lower. The other thing that you might wanna do, that works for short strikes, is to put a large nymph behind your streamer. Sometimes, especially if you're fishing your streamers slower, or with a pause in between your strips, sometimes [00:18:30.019] a fish will be attracted to that big streamer, maybe just to get it out of the way or maybe, you know, just out of territoriality. And then they drop back and they see that nymph drifting behind and they say, oh, there's a little snack. So you can try that.
You know, you know the problem with fishing two streamers. It's hard to cast, it's gonna tangle, you're gonna foul hook fish. So I would limit it to times when you just wanna [00:19:00.039] experiment with something. I wouldn't do it all the time, just because of the problems that it can create. And foul hooking is a problem. When fish bump your first streamer and you set the hook, you'll often stick them with the second hook in the side or the belly, or the tail. That's not a cool thing. We never like to do that. So, just bear that in mind, but definitely worth experimenting with.
Daniel: Hey, Tom. This is Daniel from Colorado, and I have a leader question for you. I'm wondering how I can improve my [00:19:30.099] leader game when trout fishing, specifically with nymphs and dries, since I do use the same leader for both, since I like how convenient it is to switch between the two. But maybe you would advise that I give that up. I'm certainly open to that suggestion. What I typically do is I start with a 9-foot 4X tapered leader straight out of the box, and then I'll add 5X to that, to end up with 10 to 12 feet. If I wanna fish a smaller diameter, I'll cut some of the 5X and add 6X or 7X. And then if I wanna [00:20:00.039] go thicker, I'll look higher up on the original taper, cut it at the 2X to 3X diameter, and add 3X to end up with that same 10 to 12 feet. And then, throughout the life of that leader, I'll just chop and add as needed, to end up with the right diameter at the end. So, what can I do to make this approach better? Or what can I look for to know that my leader isn't performing in an ideal manner, and how would I adjust from there? Thank you. I look forward to every episode. They're [00:20:30.359] always great, been listened for a long time, and tight lines."
Tom: So, Daniel, I would say that I approve of the way you're manipulating and using your leader, because that's exactly the way I do it, and it works for me. Yeah, and you can make a leader last a lot longer, and you can tailor it the way you want to, and I think you learn more about leader construction when you start building sections and cutting back and then adding. As far as [00:21:00.799] going to a new leader, I may fish the same leader for months, but if you're going to the extremes, like I was...I remember recently, I cut my leader way back because I was fishing a big mouse pattern on a 5 weight rod. Not a great idea, but I didn't have a 6 or a 7 with me that day, and I cut my leader [00:21:30.359] way back, to be able to turn over that big mouse fly. I don't think you need a light leader on a mouse fly when you're moving it. And I got to the point where I wanted to go back to fishing a dry fly, and I was down to probably 0X, or even heavier than that, and I thought, oh, boy, I gotta put in a 1X, a 2X, a 3X, a 4X section, to get back down to a 5X tippet. And so I did replace that leader, and what I did was [00:22:00.099] I rolled the old leader up, put it back in my leader wallet, knowing that I could use that next time I went to a mouse pattern, and then put on a new leader and start it from scratch.
So, at a certain point, you just get to the point where, yeah, you don't wanna tie all those intermediate sections. And if you start cutting back into the transitional zone in that leader, which is between the butt and the tippet section, [00:22:30.140] then you run into problems, because the most important part of that leader is that transition from the heavy butt to the tippet. So, I hope that helps, but I think you're doing it the right way, and you'll know when to replace your leader entirely.
Here's an email from Rama, or Rayma, from London, United Kingdom. "I'm in the early stages of planning a fly fishing trip to Florida next June with a colleague based in the U.S. We're gonna focus on tarpon, but are [00:23:00.059] also excited to see what else we can catch. I've been fly fishing for a good few years, but never in salt water, while my colleague has recently taken it up. The heaviest rod I've used is an 8 weight, so I'm preparing to invest in a setup for tarpon. My question is, is a 10 or 11 weight suitable for a trip to the Keys, or would going to a 12 weight be overkill, if not slightly alarming? Do you have any advice on successfully making the jump to heavier weight rods? Additionally, I'm bringing [00:23:30.019] my Mirage LT IV for my 8 weight, an incredible reel. Would this be okay for bonefish, or would the Mirage model be more suitable for salt water?" And I assume you're referring to the Mirage USA, which is the slightly beefier reel.
All right. First, regarding the rod, probably depends on exactly where you're going, because June is the time when you're gonna see migratory tarpon, and they could be big. They could be 150 [00:24:00.500] to 200 pounds. So, if you're planning on targeting those bigger fish, I think you're gonna need an 11 or a 12. Eleven has become a fairly popular rod, even for the bigger migratory fish. And I wouldn't be so scared of getting an 11 or 12, because modern 11 and 12 weights, like the Helios, they're light and they're easy to cast. You can cast them all [00:24:30.000] day long without getting tired. So, I think an 11 weight might be a good rod for that. If you're planning on fishing maybe in the Everglades, or in places where you're more likely to encounter a lot of tarpon but smaller tarpon, a 10 weight would be fine. You know, for the fish up to 40, 50, 60 pounds, a 10 weight will be good. But if you're gonna encounter those migratory [00:25:00.220] tarpon, 11 or a 12 is probably a better idea, particularly since you haven't done a lot of salt water fishing before. Certainly, someone experienced in salt water fly fishing and has done a lot of tarpon fishing, could certainly land a big, big tarpon with a 10 weight. But those of us who haven't done it a lot, probably a 11 or 12 is better. And regarding your Mirage LT IV, [00:25:30.819] that's the rod I personally use for bonefish all the time, so I think that reel is perfectly fine for fishing for bonefish.
Here's an email from Chris. "I recently decided to get into fly fishing, after years of traditional bass fishing. I tried fly fishing twice over 10 years, enjoyed it, but didn't have the time or money to pursue it. Now I'm fortunate enough to dive in. I live in St. Paul, Minnesota, and I'm the type of person who thoroughly researches everything, which [00:26:00.420] I enjoy. The challenge is that makes decision-making tough. From my research, I see that a 9-foot 5 weight is recommended as a good starter rod. However, after talking to local fly shops, I've also heard some say that a shorter 4 weight or even 3 weight is better for Minnesota trout, given their size. My goal is to find a rod that works well for both smaller bass and trout, without compromising too much on either. As a traditional fisherman, I know I'll [00:26:30.059] end up with more specialized setups down the road, but I want a rod that I'll still use 10 years from now. My concern is that a 5 weight will be ideal for trout out west, but less suitable in the Midwest, both for bass and trout. Ultimately, I plan to get an 8 weight for steelhead in the Superior Tributaries and for smallmouth bass, but I want to avoid focusing only on bass for my first rod. I already own a lot of conventional bass fishing gear, so I'm more interested in stream fishing. [00:27:00.420] Should I go with a 9-foot 5 weight for both bass and trout, size down to a 4 weight or 3 weight for trout and panfish, or explore a different option entirely? I'd appreciate your thoughts, and know they will settle this debate once and for all. Thanks in advance, and I hope you and yours enjoy the holidays."
So, Chris, I don't think that you're gonna be unhappy with a 9-foot 5 weight, even on the smaller streams in Minnesota. [00:27:30.480] It'll bend plenty on smaller trout. And sometimes a longer rod in smaller streams can be an advantage, keeping your line off the water, and roll-casting and high-sticking nymphs. So, I don't think the 9-foot 5 weight would be a bad rod for what you're gonna do. It's gonna be a little light for largemouth bass, because generally you're using bigger, heavier flies. [00:28:00.920] Perfectly fine for smallmouth bass, I think. But if I were gonna go with two rods, and I think... If you're gonna go with one rod, go with a 9-foot 5 weight, to start. However, if you're gonna go with two rods, I would get a 4 weight for trout, and then a 6 weight for bass and bigger trout flies. A 6 weight is not too heavy for larger trout streams and larger trout flies, and it's [00:28:30.220] handy in the wind, if you get on some bigger, windier waters, so I think that if you're gonna go with one rod, go with a 5. If you're gonna go with two, go with a 4 for trout and a 6 for bass and the bigger trout flies. And if you need more delicacy on that 6 weight if you're using it for trout, you can always go to a longer leader. And even a small trout will put a bend in that 6 weight. So, you're probably more confused than [00:29:00.039] when you started, but that is my advice, and I hope it helps.
Sam: Hey, Tom. This is Sam, calling from southern Maine. Have a bit of a smorgasbord for you today, so I will just get right into it. It's a couple questions and a suggestion. So, first question is, I recently noticed I bought a new intermediate line for stripers, and I went in the closet and noticed that it was glowing in the dark. So, curious what your thoughts are in regard to glow-in-the-dark lines. [00:29:30.299] I have seen a lot of debates about whether bright lines are better for the fisher, or if maybe subtle, kind of clear camo lines are better, but I'm totally new to glow-in-the-dark lines. So, curious if you think it's a gimmick, or if maybe there is merit to fishing a glow-in-the-dark line, maybe if you're targeting striped bass at night. Second question, can you provide a brief overview of the no target enclosures proposal [00:30:00.519] for striped bass fisheries on the East Coast? I've been seeing a lot of hubbub about it online, and I'm doing a little reading up on it myself, but would like to hear your opinion, maybe, if you're willing to give it, or maybe just even an overview if you don't wanna give your opinion yet. Let's see. So, here's one that I would expect you to get pretty often, Tom, but I've never heard it in previous podcasts. So I'm just gonna go for it. If you don't wanna answer it, it's all good. But for [00:30:30.940] which species do you, Tom Rosenbauer, go barbless for? That's it. Just a list would be great. I'm just curious. And then, my suggestion, if you're looking for podcast topics for the winter, would be maybe covering one on salters, or sea-run brook trout, in Maine and New England. I don't believe that I've seen one of those in the backlogs, and it's something that fascinates me. But again, I don't see a lot [00:31:00.079] of information about it online. Where are they found? What's their life cycle look like? How much time do they spend in the ocean versus in freshwater? What do they feed on? Tactics to catch them, etc. So, that's what I got for you today, Tom. I know it's a lot. If you want to pick and choose, it's all good. I won't be offended if you don't wanna answer some of them. But appreciate everything you do with the podcast. Really, according to my Spotify wrapped, I spend a lot of time listening, and I [00:31:30.059] just can't thank you enough. So, I look forward to maybe getting an answer, or two or three. And thanks for everything you do. Bye-bye."
Tom: So Sam, I can only tell you my experience with glow-in-the-dark stuff for striped bass. Many, many years ago, when I was doing mostly night fishing for striped bass, the glow-in-the-dark fly tying material started to come out. And I thought, "Oh, boy. This is really cool," and tied a bunch of striper [00:32:00.240] flies, you know, the standard striper flies, but with these glow-in-the-dark materials, Clousers, and mainly deceiver types, because at night, you wanna fish with a fly that has kind of neutral buoyancy, so the fish can see it. And I found, where I was fishing, which was, you know, it was mainly Martha's Vineyard in those days, and fishing at night, I found that the stripers seemed to run away from the glow-in-the-dark [00:32:30.099] flies, and I didn't find, for my fishing, that they worked well at all. Now, other places, they may work, and I think it's worth an experiment, but I would say a glow-in-the-dark fly line, I don't think is gonna have that much advantage. The fish are gonna see it, first of all, and they might be a little suspicious of it, unless you're fishing in heavy surf. And, you know, at night, you're [00:33:00.480] mainly fishing by feel anyway. You're not fishing by looking at your fly line or looking at your fly. So I'm not sure how much advantage a glow-in-the-dark line offers, but again, I would try it, and see how it works. You got it. You might as well give it a try. Particularly since it's an intermediate line, and it's gonna be below the surface. I would tend to think that that's gonna spook the fish, but give it a try, and see what happens. [00:33:30.880]
Regarding which species I go barbless for, almost always trout. Sometimes, usually bass. You know, almost anything except for...and bonefish, I go barbless for. But, you know, the things that I don't go barbless for are tarpon, because they're really good at throwing the hook, and I like to occasionally land one. Other than that, I guess [00:34:00.079] if I did more fishing for muskies, I probably wouldn't go barbless, because I've never landed a musky, and I'd like to be able to hold on to that fish. But yeah, for the most part, yeah, I go barbless for almost anything I do. Striped bass, for sure. Go barbless.
Regarding your podcast on sea-run brook trout, yeah I gotta find somebody who's good at that. Sea-run trout in general I've had trouble [00:34:30.019] finding somebody who wants to talk about it, both sea-run cutthroats and sea-run brook trout. I had a couple people on sea-run cutthroats, that I knew were really experienced at it, but they didn't wanna talk about it, because they didn't wanna add more pressure to the fishery. So, I'm a little reluctant to do anything on both of those sea-run fisheries, because people wanna keep it quiet, and I don't want to spot burn, or add pressure to a sensitive [00:35:00.139] fishery.
Regarding the no targeting proposal for striped bass, and I'll read something here because I wasn't entirely familiar with it, so I did a little research on it, and here's a quote that I got. "The Atlantic States Marine Fishery Council has a goal to rebuild the striped bass female spawning stock to 247 million pounds by 2029. [00:35:30.119] Based on the 2023 stock assessment, there is presently 191 million pounds of spawning stock in the water. At the current fishing rates, the ASMFC estimates they will have less than 50% chance of reaching that goal, hence the proposal of closures next year to reduce the harvest, including anticipated mortality from catch and release by 14%." So, my thoughts on this. Well, population [00:36:01.000] dynamics, particularly in the ocean, are an incredibly complicated issue. Not only do we not understand all the science, but there's a lot of competing user groups for these fish. And all I can tell you is the experience I have had. I remember the effects of the moratorium on striped bass in the late 1980s. Prior to that moratorium, in [00:36:31.079] saltwater fly fishing, stripers were a unicorn. You heard about people catching them on conventional tackle plugs, and live menhaden and stuff, but I remember when I wrote my first book, in 1984, I wanted a picture of striped bass in there, and I actually had to call my friend Spider Andresen, who was at the time editor [00:37:00.059] of Salt Water Sportsman magazine, and he had to go to the Menemsha Fish Market to photograph a dead striped bass that was taken by a commercial angler, commercial fisherman. So, we just didn't see striped bass. We fished for bluefish, which, there were a lot of big bluefish around. We fished for bonito and false albacore, and weakfish to a certain degree, but you just didn't catch striped bass. [00:37:30.420]
And then they put this moratorium on striped bass fishing, and within a few years, striped bass were everywhere. You could go to any swimming beach anywhere in the Northeast coast pretty much, and expect to catch striped bass. And it was amazing the amount of fish that were there, and the fishing that we had. That has declined. I know [00:38:00.039] it's declined. And so, in my opinion, I think another moratorium on killing striped bass is something that we need. Striped bass have always been cyclic. They've always been cyclic populations, but we need to give them some help. And yes, there's gonna be charter boat captains and commercial fishermen who are gonna be upset about it, but it's an investment for the future. It's [00:38:30.000] an investment for their future, and the stock needs to be rebuilt.
Regarding the no targeting of striped bass regulation, in my opinion, that's nuts. You're never gonna be able to enforce a no targeting striped bass regulation, because you've got bluefish and weakfish and black sea bass and bonito and false albacore in the same water as the striped bass, and [00:39:01.219] to try to enforce a no targeting of striped bass rule would be futile. But I think that we need to either reduce the take of striped bass, or have a total moratorium on them. So, that is my opinion, but personally, I love to eat ocean fish, but I don't like striped bass. I think that they're really boring fish to eat. And lately, I've been doing [00:39:30.059] some research and finding that if I wanna eat seafood, farmed shellfish, like oysters and mussels, there's minimal to no impact on the ecosystem, is the best way, if you wanna be responsible in eating seafood, is one of the best ways to still enjoy seafood and not affect the declining stocks of fin fish.
All right. Enough of my soapbox. That's the Fly Box for this [00:40:00.019] week. Let's go talk to Peter Laurelli about fly fishing in saltwater from a paddleboard.
My guest today is Peter Laurelli. And Peter, I had noticed some of Peter's filmmaking on YouTube, kind of urban New York fishing, quite a while ago. And then Peter reached out and wanted to do a video on standup paddleboard fishing for, [00:40:30.860] sight fishing, for striped bass and false albacore on the Northeast Coast. And so, I helped Peter out with some rods. In fact, I think I didn't recognize you, and I saw you once out on, what was that, on the West Wall, in Rhode Island? And I saw this guy fishing one of the new Helios rods. It wasn't actually out yet. And I yelled over to you, not recognize, said, "Hey, [00:41:00.219] where'd you get that rod?" And you yelled back, "You sent it to me." So, that was pretty funny. Anyway...
Peter: Proof it was getting a good test.
Tom: Yeah. Anyway, Peter produced this amazing film, with some fantastic aerial shots. I don't know how you fished, and used a camera, and used a drone from a paddleboard, but you did it. It was pretty amazing. [00:41:30.760] But if anybody wants to see some great footage of not only standup paddleboard fishing for saltwater fish, but for seeing what fish do in shallow water, from the air, you know, from overhead, some of those shots were just fantastic. And one of the things that I learned, well, the one thing I learned is that false albacore feed in a circle, watching those [00:42:00.840] fish go around and around from overhead. The other thing I learned was that striped bass actually follow seals. You know? I mean, all those shots you had of striped bass just kind of falling in line behind the seals. Now, I don't know if they do that so that they can't get attacked, if they'd even take a fly if they were following a seal, but that was a big [00:42:30.000] eye opener for me. Anyway, it's a cool film. The film is in Peter Laurelli's...it's under your name, Peter Laurelli on YouTube, and your channel. And what's the name of that one again?
Peter: The name of that one was, it's an acronym, it's SIFF18, and it has the subtitle "Four Years For Life," but SIFF just stands for Surf and Inshore Fly Fishing, which is what I threw on my first video a long [00:43:00.019] time ago, and I just stuck with it.
Tom: Yeah, yeah. And so, you're obviously an expert in fishing in saltwater, with a stand-up paddleboard, and it has some advantages, and so I wanted you to talk to me and my listeners about this really exciting and interesting way of fly fishing. So, I'm gonna let you take it away, and talk about SUP [00:43:30.239] fishing.
Peter: Yeah, well thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. Thanks for the help over the years. And I totally agree. It's a really fun way to fly fish, fun way to fish in general. But taking it even just a step back, if I only had one way to fish for the rest of my life, it would be walking a beach, looking for fish cruising down [00:44:00.400] the shore.
Tom: Yeah.
Peter: Just, there's nothing better than seeing a good-size striped bass cruising 10 feet from the shore, in crystal clear water, and it doesn't see you yet. You're just kind of following it along and tossing something in front of it. But sometimes the fish aren't there. Sometimes, you...
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Peter: So, I [00:44:30.079] kind of figured the next best way to do that is jump on a platform, and go to where they may be. So, I really love stand up paddleboard fishing on flats. They're flats that might not be accessible by walking. They might be too deep. For whatever reason, just being on [00:45:00.599] a stable platform that you can get around in is a fantastic way to do that. So, it is the next best thing to standing on the shore and casting at fish that you can see. And take it to false albacore. If I could catch false albacore one way, it would be standing on a beach, and being in the right place at the [00:45:30.059] right time, and having those fish within casting distance, and you know what? That's even harder.
Tom: They're always out of reach. They're always just out of reach.
Peter: They are. They are. And I can't tell you how many times I have, when it's albie season, you know, and wake up sometimes, you know, sleep in the car right by the place where you wanna fish, and wake up, go to the beach, go through the [00:46:00.019] dunes, check out the water at first light. And you know what? There are fish slowly breaking, and they're 300 feet out. So, just take the board down, throw it in the water, hop on, you know, just a paddle, your rod, and you're there. And if you were to, you know, you couldn't get them from shore, you couldn't get them from the jetties. If you were on a boat, what a hassle [00:46:30.000] that would have been to get there in the first place. And oftentimes you get, you know, you get that early morning shot all by yourself. And it's just a really cool way to do it.
Tom: Yeah. Sure is. All right. So, you want to give us your tips? And these are expanded tips. These aren't just five quick tips, right? These are five topics, let's say.
Peter: Yeah. So, you know, the first thing is, why do you do it in the first [00:47:00.059] place? Why stand up paddleboard versus fishing from shore or versus being on a boat, or being in a kayak even?
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Peter: And I would say that, you know, it is extremely intimate with the surroundings. You're, you know, you've got water coming over the edge all the time. You're gonna get wet. You're gonna feel like you're literally right on top of the water. But it's [00:47:30.239] simple. You know, sometimes I see kayakers out, and, you know, they've got three or four rods on the back. They've got their pedals, fish finder, whatever. And I'm thinking, like, how are you gonna, like... Let's say you [inaudible 00:47:48] out all your fly line. Where's that gonna go? What's that gonna tangle around? So, you know, why not from shore? Well, sometimes the fish just aren't there.
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Peter: [00:48:00.400] Why not from a bigger boat? Or from a, you know, from a, going up boat sizes? Why not from a kayak? It's just much more simple. You know, you get a board, you can throw it in the water. You don't need to...you know, it's much, much lighter. And you can carry it to where you need to go, and you don't need to bring little wheels that you need to pick up later and all that. And, you know, versus a, you know, boat, you're gonna have to trailer that in somewhere. And is that always where you wanna [00:48:30.079] be the first thing in the morning? No, it's, that's just a much bigger, more expensive hassle. But there are times where, you know, you just can't do it. Sometimes...you know, you're always at the mercy of the wind. If you get a, you know, a big chop on the water with a swell, it can get really dicey. And you just don't have the control of the board the way you really need to.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Peter: [00:49:01.079] And, like, the wind, the wind's probably the biggest factor influencing where you fish, how you can fish. And so, if it's blowing pretty hard, especially if it's blowing hard offshore, you know, yes, it'll flatten out the near shore waters. But if you're going, you know, for example, back when I lived in New York City, there was a time of year, it's actually right around now, where you go down to the south shore [00:49:30.179] beaches and, you know, Gannets are diving on bait, you know, quarter mile, half mile off. And you're thinking, okay, I can't get to...no one can cast there. I don't have access to a boat. Now, am I gonna spend a thousand bucks to go play with the fish for a little bit? That's excessive. But I would not do that. And I used to do that on a 10-foot inflatable board. And, you know, you go out there, there [00:50:00.039] are whales cruising around, and it feels pretty wild. But I would only do that if there was a wind blowing on shore, so that I knew, in a worst-case scenario, I lose my paddle, whatever. I'm just gonna get blown back to shore eventually. I might have a mile walk home. That's fine. But, yeah, the wind really dictates where you can fish and [00:50:30.000] how. But, yeah, so that kind of covers the "why a stand up paddleboard." It is simple. It is intimate. The fish don't care that you're there most of the time.
I was off...and I'm gonna do my best to not name names and places, but I was off a rocky coast in Rhode Island this fall. And it [00:51:00.679] was, you know, it's generally windy, but I was in the lee, and there were... So, there was a period where there were, like, you know, a half football size field of bass swimming around you, underneath you, breaking, you know, tails hitting the board.
Tom: Oh, wow.
Peter: They just, they don't care. You know, and it's funny. The only thing that stopped that feed, that kind of ended it for that area [00:51:30.059] for, and I waited another half hour, nothing showed up again, was I was sitting there, I had a fish on, and, you know, the bass are still, you know, feeding all around, and out of, like, I didn't see it, but out of the corner of my eye, I just, I heard just a huge, it sounded like someone dropped five bowling balls in the water. And I turned and saw, like, a huge swirl of a splash, the remains of it. And it was, there were no seals around.
Tom: Uh-oh.
Peter: But, you know, I [00:52:00.119] don't know if that was, you know, some larger tuna species, a shark, but that shut it down. So, cool things like that will happen.
Tom: Yeah.
Peter: Now, you don't, that's, you know, you don't really get that feel on a boat.
Tom: No, no.
Peter: You can get it in a kayak, but, you know, I'm standing up while this is happening, and I'm able to look down and see this stuff much more clearly than I could if I was [00:52:30.059] kind of sitting in a seat. So, I guess that covers one, which is why.
Tom: Yeah. Uh-huh.
Peter: You know, if you decide to go that route, and explore this kind of fishing, you know, one thing is, things can go wrong pretty quick. So, safety is, it's a big issue. It's an important issue. And things that I've, there are [00:53:00.000] things that you can do to kind of do your best to make, you know, if a bad situation happens, not to make it worse. First, foremost, wear a PFD. They make great kayaking ones, that are very low-profile. And, you know, they are made for people who need to have their hands free and use things and be active and whatever they're, and they're fantastic. I'll admit that if I'm on a [00:53:30.059] flat, kind of an inshore flat, maybe, you know, maybe I won't bring it. That's, you know... But I recommend it. You know, even silly things can happen. Like, you fall, hit your head on the board, and three feet of water can be pretty dangerous like that.
Tom: Do you legally need a PFD on a paddle board, like you do on a regular boat?
Peter: Don't quote me on this, because last [00:54:00.059] time I looked, this was a long time ago, and things may have changed, but at the time, no. There's some distinction of the vessel.
Tom: Uh-huh. Okay.
Peter: So, one, PFD is a really smart idea. You get used to it.
Tom: Do you ever wear, you ever use those inflatable ones, that are really low-profile, or do you use a solid PFD?
Peter: I haven't, for no other reason than the [00:54:30.000] one that I used for a long time, when I have it on, I hardly know it's there anyway.
Tom: Okay. Yep.
Peter: And I kind of like it because it has a pocket in front. I'll put, you know, I'll put things in it, something to eat. Second is if I'm going offshore, or generally anywhere where there's a chance that the board could get away from me and I can't get it back, [00:55:00.139] I'll wear a leash.
Tom: Okay. Yep.
Peter: So, the idea being... And then third is I bring an anchor, a 15-pound, or, sorry, a 12-pound kettlebell, usually with a, you know, 100-foot nylon kind of paracord that you can get at Home Depot. The reason being, you know, the leash keeps you to the board. The anchor keeps you in one place. If things get really bad where you are, and, [00:55:30.639] you know, you get, you know, the wind changes, whatever, and for some reason you find that you can't get to where you need to be, you can stay put, and you can be attached to the thing that is staying put.
And then, like, if you really wanna get adventurous, and I've done this with, if I'm going, like, in those south shore waters, like, when it's cold and whatever, I get a personal EPIRB, [00:56:00.980] that is no bigger than, you know, a small walkie-talkie, and you can attach it to your PFD and it just sits there, and worst case scenario, you fall in, board gets away from you, whatever, and you're floating, you just, you can flip it on, and it's registered to you. And you can, you know, help will come. I've never had to use it. I've fortunately never been in a [00:56:30.500] place where, you know, I felt things were bad, but that, I think, comes from knowing your limits, and, you know, making the right choices and steps before you get on the water.
Tom: Yeah. So, the EPIRB, you mean, like, a Garmin inReach or one of those types of devices, the satellite locators?
Peter: Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Tom: And one thing I wanted to ask [00:57:00.059] you in the safety realm. Wind is obviously the thing that you need to watch, and you need to know a forecast for, as well as knowing what the wind is right now, right? What app do you use to predict wind direction and speed before you go out? Because there must be an app.
Peter: Yeah, I use just the Windy app.
Tom: Yeah, that's the one I've heard most people use. Yep. Okay.
Peter: [00:57:31.719] Yeah. It's good because you can put a precise location on there, and it's pretty intuitive. And, you know, I use that for, you know, if I'm looking on flats that I wanna fish, and you gotta figure, you know, what's the wind gonna be like two hours from now at that tide [crosstalk 00:57:53]
Tom: Right. Yeah.
Peter: ...check it out. And then it gives you a really nice image of wind direction and speed. [00:58:01.079] So you can see, like, okay, that's not gonna fish the way I'd like it to, or that's, you know... But that's the one I use.
Tom: And is that pretty reliable? Have the predictions been spot-on for you?
Peter: Depends how far out you go. Yeah. So, and always check before you get on the water, like, right before. And they're usually, you know, day before, [00:58:30.440] pretty spot-on. Especially, you know, the basics of direction and velocity. When they change is, you know, that can be, that can go either way, but I've never really been caught off guard...
Tom: Okay. Good.
Peter: ...using that.
Tom: Okay. Good.
Peter: Yeah. So, I guess moving on to gear, gear being the number three.
Tom: Right.
Peter: What [00:59:00.099] do you need to make it as, you know, enjoyable as possible, safety things aside? So, I have learned, and watched others learn the hard way, that board size makes a big difference. And you can take a, kind of what would be a normally really fun, even kind of easy fishing space, and make it [00:59:30.039] a hassle, with, you know, a board that doesn't fit the person.
Tom: Uh-huh. Okay.
Peter: So, I have fished a board as short as 10 feet, but it was wide. It was, I think it was at least 30 inches wide. Trying to push that board through open water was like, you know, a little bit like trying to paddle a sponge. But it was stable. It was stable enough that [01:00:00.000] I had confidence to go offshore. Now I fish a 12-foot board by 32. And it is, it's got a, kind of more of an open-water design. So, the bow of it has, it looks a bit like, you know, one of those modern sailboats that cuts through the water. And it's great for covering water. It's stable. So, just there, [01:00:30.139] make sure you got the right board for the situation. Don't undersize yourself and think you're either saving money or keeping it extra simple. It's a huge deal.
Tom: And Peter, what about inflatable versus hard boards? You have any opinion on that?
Peter: So, I have fished both, and I've fished an inflatable in some places that I'm not sure I would take it anymore, only because [01:01:00.420] I, you know, somewhere inside you fear a hook's gonna get into this, or I'm gonna do something stupid and puncture it. I fished an inflatable for a long time, and that never happened.
Tom: Yeah. They're pretty tough.
Peter: Giving it probably every chance that that could happen. But, so, you know, I think it comes down to, you know, you wanna buy something or use something that is gonna cover the vast, [01:01:30.099] vast majority of what you're gonna do.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Peter: And for me, I probably fish open water more. And so having one that I can cover distances in is important. I think it's just a little harder to do on an inflatable, versus a rigid board, or a hard board. But, yeah. I've fished an inflatable, and I know others who do, and they [01:02:00.619] totally get the job done.
Tom: Okay. Okay. But you think that a 12-footer is better, and a wider board is gonna be better for this purpose?
Peter: Yeah. I'd go width over length, but if you're going distances, length is just as important.
Tom: Okay. Is that because it tracks? Is it because the longer ones track better? Is that why? Because it's [crosstalk 01:02:29]
Peter: They will track better, [01:02:30.199] but you can also have the stability, and they can, you know, the general profile can be sleeker, while still being wide enough.
Tom: Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. Now, how about paddles? Do you have any recommendation for the right paddle for doing this?
Peter: Yeah. So, I would, again, not skimp on the paddle. I've had the same paddle, the same, it's a Werner, [01:03:00.400] I think a Werner or "Verner," but it's the W, three-piece paddle, for 10 years or more., And I use it as a...first, it's adjustable, so I can make it much longer than I would need to paddle with. And I can make it shorter, in case I'm getting on my knees, but I also use it as a, something to pole around on the flats.
Tom: Uh-huh. Okay.
Peter: [01:03:30.460] And that's why you want it to be pretty bombproof.
Tom: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Peter: The actual paddle, face of the paddle itself, and I have, you know, covered probably over a hundred miles of flats, just pushing off the ground, and sometimes it gets windy, and you need to...and paddling is good, but it's better to be on your knees and use it to push. You just sit there and you keep digging [01:04:00.199] into the sand, digging into the sand, and pushing and pushing and pushing. And it's, having something that, you know, if you have just a basic plastic-construction paddle, or kind of paddle face, whatever the technical term for that part of the paddle is, I could imagine those chipping, falling apart. So, there's that. Then there's the size of the actual face to the paddle. You wanna be able to go through the water with, you know, it's a mix [01:04:30.039] between getting it through the water and pushing the right amount of water.
Tom: Okay.
Peter: And you go to any kind of kayak, paddle board store, and they'll have the right paddles. And they'll fit them to you. They make, you know, thicker or narrower diameter shafts on them...
Tom: Right.
Peter: ...based on your hand size, which is big. So, yeah. Don't skimp on a paddle, because you're gonna beat it up.
Tom: Yeah. Okay. And then you said a leash, [01:05:00.199] you wanna have a leash, an anchor.
Peter: Yeah, a leash, anchor. Some other things that I probably can't live without are, I make a, kind of, bungees with carabiners on them. Just take a simple, you know, I don't know what the actual diameter of the bungee would be, maybe a quarter inch. But get, like, a 2.5 to 3-foot section. [01:05:31.179] Just, you know, wrap it around, and kind of cinch it down with two zip ties, and then put some duct tape around that. And that holds the carabiner to the bungee...carabiner on both sides. That is great for, gosh, for a lot of things. If you're anchoring, and if you're offshore, and it's, there's a little chop or [01:06:00.199] a swell, if you have the anchor down, and you're just, you know, have that nylon attached, that nylon cord attached to your board somehow, you're gonna get pulled around pretty violently sometimes. So, you create a loop in the nylon line, clip the carabiner onto that, clip the other part onto one of those bungee tie-downs they have, that come with the board. And you can make those stronger. You can add, sometimes I even add my own nylon cord, [01:06:30.130] just so that there's no give there, and then clip the other side of the bungee to that, and you've got a shock absorber on your anchor. And that is, you know, that's a luxury, but it's really useful.
Another one is, so, if I'm fishing flats, again, the wind is a factor, and the hardest way to deal with fishing [01:07:00.219] on a flat on a paddle board is, you know, you're paddling along, great, you see a fish, and you need to put your paddle down, pick up the rod, get a cast up. Meanwhile, the wind is still pushing you toward that fish. And by the time you get it all done, you know, you're on the fish, it sees you, and then, you know, game over. So, I learned that you can get a drift sock, [01:07:32.159] and attach that to the back of the board with, again, with a bungee. and that way, again, like, you can stand up, you're not getting shocked from the pulling of the drift sock as you go along. And you'd be surprised. You can be in, you know, 15-plus mile-an-hour winds, where it would seem unfishable without it, put the drift sock down, and you are, it's like you're hardly moving. And [01:08:00.159] you can drift over an entire flat, you know, looking, without worry of, you know, that you're gonna run over a fish that you didn't see because you're drifting too fast.
Tom: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Okay. Good.
Peter: Yeah. And then just, like, if you're doing that kind of fishing, I've found that having the anchor ready is really important. So, let's say I'm fishing in, you know, 3 to 5 feet of water. [01:08:30.079] I'll have the, I'll get the anchor out. I'll find the depth, generally, that it's gonna be at. And then I'll bring it back up and just kind of lay it behind me on the board. And if I'm drifting, and if I see a fish, I will... And if, you know, if I'm in a good spot, and the fish is still, you know, 150 feet away, I will slowly just kind of reach back, lower the anchor down, stand on [01:09:00.140] the cord at that point. And then you're stable. You're standing on top of the water, and you have all the time in the world to, you know, watch that fish come in. And if it changes course, just kind of bend over, pick up the anchor a bit, push yourself over a bit, do it again. You can do it really quietly, and you can be really stable. And it's, they are kind of [01:09:30.020] indispensable if you're gonna try and do that kind of fishing.
Tom: Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. Do you carry a flare and a whistle with you in your PFD?
Peter: I do not carry a flare, but I do carry a marine whistle, if I'm going offshore. I've only had to use it once, and I'm not sure it made any difference, but it made me feel good. I was fishing, [01:10:03.260] I forget which body of water it is, but it's the one that's right by JFK, in New York City. And I launched in, you know, pretty dense fog. I knew the direction I was going, but I could not see, you know... It was also, you know, sun wasn't even coming up yet. And I knew I wouldn't be anywhere near kind of boating [01:10:30.199] travel lanes for, you know, for the first part of where I was getting to, but I remember I went under this bridge, and it's the kind of thing you couldn't see the bridge until it was 20 feet in front of you. I went under the bridge, got to the other side, and in about, you know, another minute or so, I started to hear fish breaking, and so I kind of put a cast out. Nothing happened, whatever. Got the line gathered up, started paddling again, went for [01:11:00.000] another minute, and I was at the bridge again. And I was like, "Okay. I had absolutely no idea I was going 180 degrees the wrong way. So, there's a vote for a compass.
Tom: Yeah, yeah. A compass would be nice.
Peter: And then, as that morning kind of progressed, I could hear boats, and I would, every 30 seconds or so, I would just blow as loud as I could on the whistle, just so anyone, you know... I don't know... No one blew back at me. [01:11:30.140] I just assumed that they would, if there were anyone was close enough, that they could hear it.
Tom: Yeah.
Peter: So, it's a good idea. I don't know if it's made any, if it's really come in handy or not, but it's one of those, "Why not?" How big is a whistle? And you can just, you know, put it in your PFD pocket.
Tom: It's a good idea not to go out in the fog, too, Peter.
Peter: Well, gotta get to where the fish are sometimes.
Tom: Yeah.
Peter: [01:12:01.180] And, yeah, a lot of... Yeah. A lot of bad ideas can get you in a lot of kind of fun situations, and some pretty amazing fish, and...
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Peter: And that's the other part of the board, is sometimes it's just an adventure.
Tom: Yeah.
Peter: It may not always be the most efficient way to do it, but it's pretty cool.
Tom: [01:12:30.420] Yeah. It is.
Peter: And so, like, what other gear... If I'm gonna be in a point where I would need water or I'd need something to eat, I have a, I just, I bring a simple roll-top waterproof backpack. You know, I used to have one that had a big zipper on it. Zipper can be, you know, the zipper can be testy to open sometimes. [01:13:00.199] Sometimes you think it's closed, but you didn't close it that last, like, that last half centimeter.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Peter: And, you know, and then it falls over the side, and then you learn that you didn't close it the last half centimeter. So, I like a roll-top pack.
Tom: Yep. Yep.
Peter: And, like, simple things. Like, bring a water bottle. Yeah. But don't get one that's gonna roll off the board.
Tom: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Peter: So, [01:13:30.300] I like, you know, I like a Camelback version that has a little something on the lid, that is big enough to keep it from rolling.
Tom: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Peter: And that makes a big difference.
Tom: Yeah. I'll bet.
Peter: And when I used to, when I would film, and you're bringing lenses and batteries, and you don't want that stuff just to interact with anything that might even get into the pack itself, whether it's sand, or a little bit of water or [01:14:00.140] whatever, I used to bring empty Talenti ice cream containers, which are, you know, they have the pint version and the slightly bigger version. And you can put a lot of stuff in them, close them. It's a little like, you know, a waterproof container inside your waterproof container, for things that you don't wanna mix.
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Peter: And honestly, like, those were one of my favorite little, [01:14:31.399] aha things for, like, simple ways to improve your time out there.
Tom: Mm-hmm. Okay. How about, speaking of equipment, how about rods? What rod do you prefer? What length and line size do you prefer for doing this fishing?
Peter: Well, first, I would say just bring one rod.
Tom: Yeah.
Peter: Like, there's... I've brought [01:15:00.100] two. I've brought a spinning rod. I've thought, for whatever reason I thought it, would be a good idea to have two rods. It never turned out to be a good idea to have two rods. They get in the way. It's another thing to worry about falling over. It's another thing to worry about potentially breaking.
Tom: Yeah.
Peter: So, if you're going out, keep it simple. Bring one rod. If you really feel like you need to have, you know, a sinking, an intermediate, and a floating line, then bring another spool, or bring another [01:15:30.600] reel if you need to. But even then, I've never changed spools or reels, even in an all-day trip, like a, on-the-water-by-five, off-the-water-by-four, I've never changed my setup. But rod type, you know, if I'm fishing albies, or...it'll be a 9 weight. [01:16:00.039] I like, my favorite kind of line to fish is, and I just, I wish more people made it. It's just kind of a niche thing, is, I like a intermediate head with a floating running line. I like that because if I want to fish a something top water, I can still kind of get the retrieve going quick enough that the intermediate line doesn't get too deep, and I can still get some top water action.
Tom: Yep.
Peter: It's not being dragged down [01:16:30.140] by the running line.
Tom: Mm-hmm.
Peter: And I, it's my, for, you know, for sight fishing on the beaches, it's perfect because you can cast out, get the line, you know, help get the fly down, and the running line doesn't get kind of caught in by the waves. You can kind of mend it over the waves, [inaudible 01:16:51] It's, for me, it's the ideal line. It's just, it's hard to find. So, yeah. And if I'm gonna be in a [01:17:00.619] calmer area, and I know I'm not gonna be casting any big flies, like, usually I'm fishing, you know, little sand eels, or even just a crab, you know, you don't need to cast it all that far a lot of the times. I'll use an 8 weight, if it's, you know, if I know I'm not gonna run into any bigger fish, or I just, just because it's sometimes, you know, you can still put a lot of pressure on them, but you just get a [01:17:30.079] little extra feeling from it.
Tom: Yep. Okay. So, either a 9-foot 9 weight or 8 weight, is what you'd recommend.
Peter: Yep. Yep.
Tom: And a floating line, with a intermediate tip [inaudible 01:17:48] The clear tips are one that I use. That's intermediate. So, you know, a clear tip and a floating running line.
Peter: Yeah. I found, [01:18:00.720] finding one with a longer, you know, something like I've seen, you know, 10-foot sinking tips. And I like it a bit longer. And I'd have to go out and measure what I've got on it, on my rod now, but it's, I've seen some of the, you know, freshwater-focused sink tip lines, and they're, the sinking portion either, you know, this [01:18:30.060] is, tends not to be as long as I'd like it to be.
Tom: Yeah. Okay. And then, I assume you carry, probably carry all your flies in one box, so you don't have a lot of fly boxes to dig through?
Peter: Yeah. It's a simple one, that could... I, you know, I'll even put it in my PFD pocket, something that's small enough to fit in there. But yeah, to say, you know, notebook [01:19:00.079] size, or not notebook. Like, half a notebook size. One that, preferably waterproof. Other things, like... And I've, all this stuff comes from making the mistake, at least once, is, you know, don't forget your leader material, extra leader material. Whatever tippet size you're using, bring one or two with, like... If I'm sight fishing, I'll bring two different sizes, [01:19:30.380] just in case I believe that the reason why that fish went the other way was because it saw my leader, which, eh. I don't know if that really is the case when you're down below 20, but, I've been in a place that was hard to launch into, that I forgot my leader material, and I was albie fishing, and [01:20:00.939] first fish broke off. I was down to, you know, I usually go, like, 60, 30, 20, and then that's probably it. And I was down to the 30, and I was fishing, you know, like, a 3.5-foot tippet. And it's like, this is, they care at some point.
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Peter: And that shut down an otherwise really fun [01:20:30.199] session.
Tom: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Peter: So, that...if I can think of another gear thing, that should cover it. I think the other part you had, we'll call it number four, launching and landing.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Peter: You gotta get on the water somehow, and you gotta get off the water. And so, two main things there. What, [01:21:00.600] first, like, what kind of water are you gonna launch into? If you're launching from a beach, and you have a choice, and that choice could be, you know, I either launch here, or, you know, a half mile down the beach, where the structure's different, I will choose a steeper beach every time, just because, if there's a swell of any sort, you can time it on a steeper beach, and [01:21:30.359] get out onto the water, kind of, safely, by waiting for a smaller set, launching in between, and you can kind of throw the board down, get on, like, take two or three paddles, and be away from where the waves are breaking. The longer, you know, the shallower the beach, the longer those waves will kind of be cresting, and it's happened that I've, [01:22:00.199] you know, I thought I had timed it well, and, you know, you get one wave that decides to crest a little earlier than you planned, and that kind of pushes you off to the side. And then all of a sudden, you needed all of your, kind of, go, go, go time to get past a certain point. And just that kind of setback would be enough that you don't make the wave that you need to get past. And I've, that's the only time I've been knocked off my [01:22:30.060] board in, you know, 12-plus years of doing this, is because, you know, I chose a shallower beach to launch at. And it was, I didn't really have a choice, and it was a timing thing. So, yeah.
The other important thing is, you gotta know the area, or at least scout the area that you wanna get in the water, just in case you get there. And [01:23:00.039] there's nothing worse than showing up at, you know, 5 o'clock in the morning, 4 o'clock in the morning, in the dark, to a place that you've scouted through Google maps, and it look, you know there's an access point there. There's a little path that goes down from what looks like a parking lot, and you get there and it's a, you know, members-only parking lot, or, say, you know, you need a permit, or something, and you just get there and you think, "Oh God." The way I've gotten around that is [01:23:30.359] not to park there, because that wouldn't be right. But I bring a bike. And I drop the board, drop the stuff, go to an okay parking spot, ride my bike back, and lock it up there and go in the water. But that's more of a better to, really, if you can, go to the spot during the day, check it out. It's like, okay, can I get on the water here? Is it okay to park here?
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Peter: [crosstalk 01:23:58] recently, in that Rhode Island shoreline area, where [01:24:00.220] I was out with my brother-in-law, we had time, went the day before, checked it out. What looked like the parking lot that we were gonna park at was, turned out to be owned by a hotel nearby, and we had to find some place else, and you don't wanna do that when you know the fish are there, and you know this is your window.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Peter: So, and that's, [01:24:30.000] and also, and this kind of overlaps with the safety side, is, sometimes the point that you launch from, you can't land that when you want to. Something like, you know, the waves, you know, the swell grew more than you thought it would. And, you know, the weather turns, and all of a sudden, even that steep beach break is, you know, it's just too, feels [01:25:00.500] too hairy to land.
Tom: Right.
Peter: So you gotta have a backup, whether that's a place further down the beach, where you can find a trough that you could kind of get in to shallower water, and then just kinda jump off and come in. Or, you know, I've had to do this before, you, fishing near a breachway, and, you know, couldn't land on the beach anymore. And luckily, the tide was going [01:25:30.119] in, and still getting through the mouth of the breachway was a little hairy, but it was better than trying to dump everything trying to get onto the beach.
Tom: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Peter: And lastly, like, I, again, everything learned the hard way. But, landing on the beach, two things. A board that is meant to, you know, that has an ocean kind of shape, it's not a surfboard. It will not [01:26:00.199] go through a, you know, you can't ride a wave like you think you can, especially if you're coming from your knees, and what'll usually happen is the board will start to go, something will catch along the way. Either your nose will go a little bit off somewhere, and all of a sudden you're going sideways, and you don't have control anymore, and you're gonna get wet. It's fine. You can, you know, getting wet's not a problem, but... [01:26:30.000] So, I found that what I'll do is, one, stick to the steeper side of the beach, and go in backwards. Just kind of sit there facing the waves. So, if you see a wave coming that is a little bit too big, you can quickly just go straight ahead and go back out into deeper water, and get past before it hits you. So, you just wanna back up, back up, back up, wait until you have that time where there's a lull, and then you turn and [01:27:00.180] commit, and just go, go, go. And, you know, more often than not, you know, I'll come off the board and someone from the beach will say, "Wow. I thought that was gonna go a lot worse." And, like, you know, it easily could. So, yeah, that's... And also make sure things are tied down, stowed away. You don't have a lot there, but I like to make sure that the [01:27:30.260] butt of the rod is toward the bow. Wrap a bungee around it. One of the, like, the lash-downs that come with the board, wrap that once around the butt, make sure the tip is kind of stuck under the bungees in the back, so it is a hundred percent secure. You're not gonna break the tip off if the board gets tossed. And that way, also, when you land, you can just, you know, pick up the board and get it out of the water.
Tom: Right. Okay.
Peter: You don't have to worry about picking up the other stuff.
Tom: Yeah. Okay.
Peter: So, that covers [01:28:00.199] launching and landing. And I think the fifth area was presentation techniques.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah, because you're in a fairly mobile craft, that can be pushed around by current and wind, and you got a moving fish. And so, presenting the fly is a little, I think a little more difficult from a stand up paddleboard than it is from other craft.
Peter: [01:28:33.619] It definitely can be if you...you know, you just gotta make sure that you're kind of taking control of the situation as much as you can. So, things like, on the flats, having that drift sock...
Tom: Yep. Okay.
Peter: ...makes all the difference in how you can fish an area, how you can approach a fish. Also, you [01:29:00.340] know, again, the anchor. Throw the anchor down, and you're there. If I'm, you know, I live in Norwalk, Connecticut, and we have Norwalk islands that are just a short paddle from here. And I like to go out with just the anchor. No need for a drift sock. I know the kind of fishing I'm gonna do. I'm going to kind of post up near structure, [01:29:30.020] near rocks, with a current, and I will bungee the anchor to the back of the board, because, you know, the current's gonna push you down. You wanna be facing forward if you can. And I'll get myself a good cast away, put the anchor down, and just, and then you're set. There's no rush to do anything. You're not going anywhere. You know, you're safe, secure, and you have, you've set yourself [01:30:00.000] up for the ideal cast. And so there's, you know, wind, current, it's not gonna affect you. And then you just fish it like you would if you were standing on shore, except your shore is this little 12 by 32-foot platform, that is just yours, in a place that everyone from shore would like to be.
Tom: Yeah.
Peter: And I can't tell you how many times I have been [01:30:31.020] on the board, anchored in a spot that is far enough away from people on shore that I'm nowhere near their casting distance, far enough away from people on the jetty that I'm nowhere near their casting distance. Because the last thing I want is to be in somebody else's way, kind of ruining their chances for their fun, for my own selfish reasons. So, being in a, isolated, in your own [01:31:00.109] water, and catching fish that no one else can. And then eventually, a boat might show up, if the word gets out, and that always, you know, I like to think that it's not just my water.
Tom: Yeah, that's nice. Nice of you.
Peter: It's really hard sometimes, especially if you worked for it.
Tom: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Peter: But, you know, if you're among bigger boats, [01:31:30.979] be respectful. Don't, you know, that's when the anchor is a good thing. You just say, all right, I'm gonna be over here. I'm not gonna drift through and, because I drift at a different rate than the boats do. And I've happily fished, you know, around, during albie season, around the popular spots, and never had an issue with anyone in a boat. Because you keep your distance, you don't kind of [01:32:00.060] drift into their way, and they see that you have control, and that you're, you know, fishing generally respectfully, you're not drifting into where the fish are feeding, or you're not, you know, getting in their casting lanes, and it's all good.
Tom: Well, you probably get a lot of respect for just being out there on a paddleboard, as opposed to a big motorboat, right?
Peter: You know, yeah, but you can lose that respect really quickly [01:32:30.279] if you're not responsible about it. Because, you know, they don't wanna be out there and, you know, taking their time to save you. And that's probably one of the first things they think when they see someone on a board is, like, gosh, it's, you know, there's current out here, there are waves out here. Then they see that you're kind of in control, and you know the water and you know the fishery, and yeah, then it's nice. I've gotten far more, [01:33:00.460] like, "hell yeahs" than, like, than "get the hell out of heres."
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. [crosstalk 01:33:06]
Peter: I've never gotten the latter, but... And that goes for, like, how you fish a jetty, you know, with popular jetties for albies, and... Don't go in there, don't get within casting range.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Peter: And there's zero issue with, you know, [inaudible 01:33:23] whether you're on, what kind of boat you're on. No need to get within casting range of people from [01:33:30.000] shore.
Tom: Yep. Absolutely. All right, Peter.
Peter: Yeah. So, I think we got it covered there. Five general themes for how to have fun on a board.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. And it is a great way to fish. I don't do it that often, but I have done it, and I love it every time I do it. I should do it more.
Peter: Yeah. There's, I don't know where we are on time, but there's one other thing that [01:34:00.659] is worth, that I just, I love with the board.
Tom: We've always got time, Peter. We've always got time on the podcast.
Peter: Okay. So, I love sight fishing. It is, again, if I could do one kind of fishing, it would be sight fishing striped bass on a beach, or if you can, on a flat.
Tom: Yep.
Peter: And while, being on a board, it gets you, your feet at kind of water level, [01:34:31.300] anyone who's been flats fishing knows that the higher you are, that every foot matters when it comes to spotting a fish.
Tom: Oh, yeah. Being a height-challenged individual, I know all about that.
Peter: So, I like to fish off a ladder, like, an 8-foot step ladder. And I'll throw the ladder on a board, not to stand on, [01:35:00.079] but if I know there's a flat that you need to paddle to get to, and I want to stay... And it's, I'm gonna do, like, a, you know, a certain section of the time, like, a 3-hour time window, I like to throw the ladder on the front of the board. It's not the most fun thing to paddle with, but you can do it. And then dump the ladder, you know, open it up while you're on the board, [01:35:30.199] put it down. It acts as your little anchor there for a second, while you get it set up. And then you just take a bungee and attach the board to the ladder. And, you're on your own little island, and you're standing 3 feet above the water, or 4 feet above the water, depending. And I've, you know, again, the fish rarely get spooked until the very last minute that way. And it's great. I could [01:36:00.300] do a whole 'nother session on ladder fishing.
Tom: Now, do you have a recommendation for a good fishing ladder?
Peter: I would not go the light aluminum. Yeah, there's a, I don't know the brands, but, you know, they're, like, the fiberglass sides, 8-foot ladders. And some simple things to make the time better, you're [01:36:30.039] gonna have to... And sometimes, if I'm walking the beach, and I have to carry the ladder, get a little pool noodle and put it in between the steps, so that when you put the ladder over your shoulder, it doesn't cut into your shoulder, and you can carry it all day long.
Tom: Oh, interesting. That's a good idea.
Peter: Wearing flip flops, just to stand on the ladder, makes a big difference. Your feet will get tired. And the last, probably the last thing is, [01:37:00.319] if you're standing up near the top, I like to put a little pad, kind of like a...and you could probably use a fishing noodle, or, a pool noodle for this, to cut it out the right way. But something for your shins to rest against when you're standing on the top rung of the ladder.
Tom: Oh, yeah.
Peter: [crosstalk 01:37:18] shins are resting against kind of the sitting part.
Tom: Right. Yeah.
Peter: If you put something in there that makes it comfortable, you can stand at that highest level, you [01:37:30.319] know, for a long time. I've never fallen off a ladder yet. But it's just a really cool way to stand there, and you can see fish coming from a mile away.
Tom: Yeah. That's a great idea. All right. Well, those are some really good tips, and you got me excited about... I don't think I'm gonna be going out anytime soon in a paddleboard in this weather, but it's a late November as we record [01:38:00.300] this, but I'm excited about doing it next spring.
Peter: Yeah. Hope to see you out there.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. And this time I'll recognize you. All right, Peter. Thank you. We've been talking to Peter Laurelli, filmmaker, and a stand up paddleboard expert, and Peter, let's give people the name of that video once [01:38:30.300] more, so that they can go on YouTube and watch it.
Peter: Sure. Yeah, it's SIFF18, subtitled "Four Years For Life." You can read in the description where it gets that name, but yeah, it's S-I-F-F 18.
Tom: Okay. Yeah.
Peter: Yeah, check it out. It was a lot of fun to make, and I still watch it from time to time. It's, brings back some good memories.
Tom: I watched it the other day, and I just, I love it. I love it. It's a great film. [01:39:00.279]
Peter: Yeah. Thank you.
Tom: Okay, Peter. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share all this extensive knowledge. Really, really appreciate you coming on the show today.
Peter: Sure. You're welcome. It's...very happy to do it. Thank you.
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