Ten tips on making your fishing writing better, with Dave Karczynski
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And my guest this week, in the interview part of the podcast, is the writer, Dave Karczynski. Dave's a guy I met a number of years ago, and I had read an article in, I think it was "Fly Fisherman" magazine, [00:00:30.000] about fishing in Poland. And I hadn't seen the author's name before. And the piece really struck me. It was fun, it was interesting, it was well-written, the fishing parts of it were great. And I said, "Boy, how has this guy not been on my radar? He's really, really good." And so I reached out to Dave, I got his email address, and we chatted over email a little bit, and then we finally got to fish together. And [00:01:00.679] I have tremendous respect for Dave and his writing. I think he's one of the best new young writers to come along in fly fishing in a long time. And so I wanted to get Dave on the podcast. For one thing, he's got a new book out, which is a terrific book, which we'll discuss in the podcast. But I wanted Dave to give us some advice on writing about fly fishing. I think in every [00:01:30.180] fly fisher, there's an author waiting to come out, and I think fly fishers are readers, and they like to research things, and they like to share their experiences. And whether you wanna write for, whether you wanna write a book or an article for a fishing magazine, maybe you just, maybe you wanna write for your local TU newsletter, or maybe you just wanna write a letter or an email to a fishing buddy. There are ways to do this that will make your writing more fun, more interesting, more enjoyable [00:02:00.500] for other people to read. So, Dave is an English teacher as well, and he's got some great advice. In fact, I picked up, not...written a few books in my time, but I picked up some really good tips myself, quite a few good tips, in the course of doing this podcast. So, I know if you've always wanted to write something, but you didn't know where to start, Dave's interview, I think will help you out, and get [00:02:30.139] you on the road to getting out the pen or the keyboard, and writing your experiences down.
All right. I promised that every week I would tell you a little bit about some places you can go for some great fishing, in various venues. I'm gonna give you three Orvis-endorsed operations to consider for your trip [00:03:00.259] planning next year, and they range from a relatively expensive international trip, to a local guide that might be really close to your home. So, the first one I'm gonna talk about is Krka River Lodge in Slovenia. Now, I have never been to Slovenia, but I've always wanted to go. I've seen pictures and videos of the streams, and they look incredibly beautiful. [00:03:30.180] And Krka River Lodge is the best place we have found in Slovenia. They have the rare marbled trout, they have native brown trout, and then some stock rainbows. But this trip, from everyone I've talked to that's taken it, has some of the best food and wine of any fishing trip that you can take anywhere in the world. As I said, I've always wanted to go. In fact, I had Miha, the owner, on my podcast. [00:04:00.400] If you look back on the November 18th, 2024 podcast, he talks about fishing in the Alps, the Slovenian Alps.
So, since I haven't been there, let me read you a review of the lodge, from one of our travelers. "I had the pleasure of staying and fishing at the Krka River Lodge, and would wholeheartedly endorse it as both a fishing and a travel destination. The lodge itself is nestled [00:04:30.079] in a picturesque Slovenian village, and sits directly on the banks of the river. Most days involved a short day trip to local waters, to keep things varied, with some trips further afield, to take in all that Slovenia has to offer. Between the lodging, the rich cultural history, the staff, and the fishing, I'd return to Krka River Lodge in a heartbeat. It's a particularly good destination for mixed groups of anglers and not anglers, or anglers that look to mix their fly fishing with cultural experiences." [00:05:02.639] So, that sounds like an amazing trip to me.
The outfitter that I'm gonna talk about, and an outfitter is a operation that doesn't provide lodging and food, other than usually lunches, but does provide guiding in various regions. And this week's outfitter is Koon Outfitters, in Coyhaique, in Chile. Now, I haven't fished with Koon Outfitters, but I have fished the Coyhaique area extensively. [00:05:30.939] It's kind of in the middle of Patagonia, and is really centrally-located to some of the finest fishing in Patagonia. You know, within an hour drive of the town, you've got big rivers that you can float, medium-sized rivers you can wade, spring creeks, lakes, ponds, tiny mountain streams, just about anything you want, with very little fishing pressure. [00:06:01.699] Now, Chile is similar to Montana, in that it's open. In other words, the people have the right to fish anywhere they want, as long as they can get in at a public access. So, access is good, but you don't see that many anglers. And the thing about Koon Outfitters, and the other Orvis-endorsed operations in the area, is that they've got arrangements with local landowners, so that they can drive into some of these places, because some of the spots on [00:06:30.019] these rivers would take you hours to walk to if you walk to them from a public access point. But so, they have areas where they can go through locked gates, usually through pastures with cattle or sheep in them, and then get to some water that is lightly fished, or hardly fished at all. So, even though the fishing is pretty close to a town, it's a small town, and the fishing is great throughout that region. [00:07:00.060] So, if you're thinking of going to Chile to do some fishing, and you don't wanna go to a lodge, you just wanna stay in maybe a boutique hotel or a private home or something, and be on your own for dinner, this is a great way to go. And I'll read you one of the reviews from the Orvis website on Koon Outfitters.
"I did three days in September, and what a treat. [00:07:30.040] I did one drift, one lake day, and one walk and wade. We were treated to all sorts of weather, but the team worked so hard to get me on to fish. I can't recommend them enough. When it's tough, be prepared to fish hard. And when it's on, you are sight fishing with a dry fly. But however you catch them, the fish are a great reward. Both guides worked so hard to get me fish, and then move on to targeting them in the most exciting way possible. Calling fish from the bank [00:08:00.040] for me, waiting to cast to, I won't forget for a long time. I've never been hosted as well by any guides. From meeting the day before, to come up with a plan, punctual arrival, excellent kit provided, to one of the highlights of the trip, the lunches. I am happy with a sandwich, but this just went above and beyond. Book some days with them and find out. Hopefully, I'll make it back to explore the endless water at their disposal." [00:08:30.339]
And finally, our endorsed guide of the week is Andy Mahurin. And I know Andy well. Andy used to be my neighbor. And we lived on the same trout stream. I still live there. Andy moved to Tennessee. And now he's guiding in the upper Cumberland region of middle Tennessee, particularly on the Caney Fork. And Andy is a great guy. He's an [00:09:00.080] interesting guy. He's a historian, so he can tell you a lot about the history of a region. And he's just an all-around nice, mellow, fun guy to be around. And so if you're in the Nashville...his... Caney Fork is only about an hour and a half from Nashville, so...maybe even a little bit less. So, if you're in that area traveling, and you wanna go out fishing for a day, he's the guy I'd call. And let me read you just one [00:09:30.740] review of Andy's operation, from the website.
"I was able to do a half day with Andy last July. This was one of the best fishing trips I've ever had. Andy was polite, professional, knowledgeable, and easy to talk with. I was able to catch my first rainbow trout on a fly rod, and then added four more before the end of the trip. My father-in-law was able to catch some of his first Tennessee trout as well. I would not hesitate to book a trip with Andy any time of the year. I'm excited [00:10:00.139] about planning my next trip as I write this review."
So, those are our three suggestions for a place to think about when you're doing your trip planning. Now, I'm hosting some trips next year, or this year, actually, 2025. And one of them is a trip to Mexico, August 22nd to 28, at Casa Clorinda with Enrico Puglisi. [00:10:32.519] Enrico owns the lodge. He's been going down there a long time. Enrico's an old friend, and he's been trying to get me to go down there, because he's got some of the best baby tarpon fishing that I've ever heard about. Everybody that's gone there says that the baby tarpon fishing is just crazy down there. Very abundant, very eager to take a fly, and it's a cute little, very small operation. [00:11:01.039] And Enrico and I are gonna co-host this trip to Mexico. So, if you're interested, and particularly if you're a fly-tyer, I think, because I'm sure we'll be geeking out on flies all week. But even if you're not, and you wanna catch baby tarpon, my trip is August 22nd to 28th. And you can find this listed on the Orvis website, and then call Orvis Adventures and book yourself a trip. I love to see podcast listeners [00:11:30.340] on my hosted trips, and I frequently do get people that heard about it on the podcast. So, hope to see you there.
And by the way, if you wanna book a trip anywhere, just go to orvis.com/adventures. And there is an interactive map there, and you can look at the whole of North America, the whole world, and find out where you wanna go on your next trip, and [00:12:00.799] find out if there are any Orvis-endorsed lodges or outfitters. There's well over 200 of these operations. We check them out. We vet them. We fish with them. And you can be assured that you're gonna have a good time.
Now, before I start the Fly Box, and by the way, the Fly Box is where you ask me questions or you pass on a tip, and I try to answer your questions if I can. And you can send your questions to
Well, here's the first question from the Fly Box. And it's from Ben from Pennsylvania, an email. "I've slowly started expanding my fly-tying [00:13:30.120] to more spey and salmon flies, and notice quite a few patterns have tubes, and some do not. Likely a silly question, but why? How do they work with hooks? And what are the benefits of a tube versus just a standard hook? I don't love the idea of adding more plastic to our waters, though I assume folks are tying them in this way, there must be a benefit. Also, I was fortunate enough to see you at Edison this year, and even got to talk to Shawn Combs a bit about the new Orvis Superfine. Testing it on the casting pond was an absolute joy. [00:14:00.360] I really appreciated seeing you, Shawn, Pete, incredibly nice when I talked to him, and George, representing Orvis. It's truly a convention I look forward to every year."
Well, Ben, I don't know why more people don't use tubes, because there are a number of benefits to tubes. First of all, the hook is always at the back end, and so you don't have to tie any kind of articulated double-hook things. If you want a long fly, and, [00:14:30.639] you know, long-shanked hooks aren't great. Long-shanked hooks don't hold fish very well. They don't hook fish very well. So a lot of people put these fancy articulations on the back. But a tube fly has the hook pretty much sticking out of the back end of the fly, and only a single hook. And what happens, usually, is, once the fish takes the fly and gets hooked, the tube pops off the hook, and it just rides up and down your leader. So you're [00:15:00.360] just fighting a fish with a bare hook, and it's much easier with this shorter shank, strong bare hook, to play and land a fish, and get that hook out easily without ruining your fly. You know, you can grab the hook with a pair of forceps, and you're not gonna ruin your fly, and you're gonna be able to see the hook and grab it. You know, they're lightweight. They're lighter than a big shank, or a long-shanked hook, so they're gonna cast [00:15:30.139] a little easier. You can put weight on the front of them, beads or cones, if you want.
The other thing that I think is great about tube flies is that you can carry a whole bunch of tube flies in a compartment box. Just lay them in there, and then you keep your, you know, a bunch of hooks, and some connecting tubes, just a little piece of flexible tubing, in another box or another compartment. And if your fly gets ruined, [00:16:00.659] or if your hook gets ruined, if your hook rusts or you hook breaks or something, you've still got the fly. And, you know, a lot of times, we ruin flies because the hooks rust, or the hook gets broken or something. But with a tube fly, it's gonna last almost forever, because you just keep replacing the hook. And you can try bigger or smaller hooks. It's easy to do. You just thread your leader through the tube, tie the hook on, [00:16:30.559] snug the hook into the connector, and you're good to go. So, for long, flowing flies, like intruders and, you know, lots of salmon and steelhead flies, I don't know why more people don't use tubes, because I think they're a great method of tying this kind of fly. Even trout streamers, you can tie on tubes. So, instead of a long-shank hook, or messing with these shanks that you have to tie together, you can get [00:17:00.000] a... And you can make an articulated fly by just putting two shorter tubes on the line. So, I think they have lots and lots of advantages, and I just don't see why more people don't use them.
Charlie: Hi, Tom. This is Charlie from Maple Plain, Minnesota. Say, I believe I've heard from you, and read and heard elsewhere, that big browns often like to bump a streamer, to stun it, before [00:17:30.259] circling back and eating it. With that in mind, would it make sense to often use a slightly smaller streamer, that's maybe more bite size for a big brown? That way, instead of getting a bump, possibly the angler would be more likely to get a hook set. What are your thoughts on this? Thank you very much. Bye-bye.
Tom: Well, Charlie, yeah. I think that's a good plan. You know, sometimes fish...but sometimes fish [00:18:00.039] just bump streamers. I've had days where I've gone strike after strike after strike after strike after strike, and I changed streamer size, I changed color, I changed my retrieve speed. And sometimes they just bump streamers. Sometimes they're not opening their mouth. So, that can happen. But I think the idea of going to a smaller streamer is probably a good idea. With a smaller streamer, your hook's gonna be closer to the fly. Of course, you can [00:18:30.180] always use a streamer with a trailing hook, which may catch those short strikers. But I think a lot of times, when we talk about, or when we hear about short strikes, it's just a fish bumping the fly, and just trying to get it out of the way, and not even actually opening their mouth and trying to eat it. So, those things will happen. One thing to do is go to a smaller streamer. The other thing is to change your retrieve. Sometimes a much slower retrieve, sometimes [00:19:00.299] a faster retrieval turn them on. And some days, they're just not gonna eat it.
Here's an email from Ryan, from Spokane. "A lot of the spey forums are saying that it's not ideal to nymph with spey rods over a single-hand rod, because of how slow it is, and you can't get a good hook set. Is this just poor technique and a misconception, or am I better off at just focusing on swinging techniques?"
Well, [00:19:30.099] Ryan, yeah, I mean, you can fish an egg fly or a nymph. I assume you're probably, probably using an indicator with that. But a spey rod is really not the best tool for that. A shorter, lighter spey rod, what people used to call switch rods, because you could use them single-handed or double-handed. And so, some of the shorter, lighter spey rods, or double-handed rods, might work okay [00:20:00.180] for nymph fishing, but often, you wanna keep your rod high, and keep line off the water with those rods. And they're just heavy. So, I think that, yeah, I think most people, if they're fishing an egg fly or a nymph, dead drifting for steelhead, that single-hand rod is probably gonna be a lot easier. The one thing I would definitely suggest, if you're gonna nymph with a spey rod, is to use a Scandi line, and not a Skagit line, because [00:20:30.200] the Skagit line is really not made for that kind of fishing. That's made for bombing a heavily-weighted head and streamer out there, and getting it out there, and getting it deep. Whereas with nymph fishing, you need to be a little bit more delicate and precise. And so I think a Scandi line on your spey outfit is gonna be better if you decide to try it. But single-handed rod's probably gonna work better. [00:21:00.819]
Here's an email from Rick, from North Carolina. "Recently, you answered a question about trout losing their rods and cones at a certain size. Part of your reply intrigued me, as I think I heard you say trout lose their UV vision at something like 4 inches in length. As a fly tyer who never has enough material, haha, my questions are, should I be concerned about using UV dubbing, chenille, etc.? If fish over a certain age or size can't in fact recognize [00:21:30.200] the UV spectrum, am I just adding to my ever-expanding collection of materials for no reason? Or is there a benefit to using UV tying materials I am not recognizing or understanding? Also, I know you like sharing tips as part of the Fly Box. I don't consider myself an expert on much of anything to share an original suggestion, but I will offer very good one I recently picked up while rereading one of my fly-tying books, which is to use a pair of nail clippers to trim lead or other wire. I [00:22:01.279] struggle with getting wraps of heavier wire lead trimmed off neatly when using my thumbnail, or even an old pair of tying scissors. I found the nail clipper really lets me get a flush cut, and doesn't leave that nagging little pigtail of wire that always seems to catch my thread at just the wrong way. They are inexpensive, easily replaced, and work well for me, at any rate."
Well, Rick, thanks. That's a great tip. An yeah, an inexpensive pair [00:22:30.079] of nail clippers is really great to have around for cutting stuff that you don't wanna use your good fly-tying scissors for, because cutting wire and other heavy materials, like that plastic, will dull your fly-tying scissors. Regarding UV materials, honestly, I think it's snake oil. As I've stated before, trout lose their UV vision when they're fairly small. And, you know, people swear by certain [00:23:00.000] UV dubbings and UV materials, but I have a feeling it's just because these are good dubbings, and not because they have any kind of special UV properties. I mean, UV is really just another color in the spectrum, right? And who's to say trout, even if they could see UV, who's to say that UV signals something in their prey that's going to be something good to eat? I just don't think it makes any sense at [00:23:30.140] all. There are some good UV materials, but I think it's just because they're good materials, period, and not because of the UV. So, I don't see any benefit. Now, I'm talking about trout fishing. There are other fish, and some saltwater fish, that can see UV. And so, just for trout fishing, I don't think it's important. I don't know about other fish, but I do have a good friend who's a scientist who [00:24:00.359] believes in UV materials, but he strictly fishes saltwater. So, in saltwater, certain species of saltwater fish, and I don't know which ones, may be able to see UV, so it may be important in things other than trout flies.
Here's an email from Dennis. "Thank you for the great podcast. Really is fabulous, and something I look forward to every week. I'm located in Michigan, and fish the AuSable, Pere Marquette, and Muskegon rivers. Just a quick question. [00:24:32.519] I know that a lot of fishermen use the dropper system. I also know that Orvis sells a box specifically made to hold the pre-rigged setups, which is a great idea. My question is, since it doesn't seem feasible to do a loop-to-loop connection when switching the pre-rigs, is it best to use a leader ring to tie on the pre-set-up tippet, or would a blood or double surgeons knot make more sense? I'm sure all would work well, but just would like to hear your [00:25:00.180] thoughts on switching setups."
Well, yeah, I think a leader ring or a tippet ring, Dennis, is a great idea, because you just have to tie a clinch knot to tie that pre-rigged setup on there. And yeah, loop-to-loop doesn't work that well. But a double or triple surgeons knot is gonna be problematic too, because you are gonna have to pass those multiple flies through the loop when you tie on your tippet. You [00:25:30.339] won't with a blood knot, but with a triple surgeons, you will, or double surgeons, whichever you prefer to use. So, I would say either use a tippet ring or use a blood knot if you're gonna rig that way.
Here's an email from Zach, from Utah. "While wading up a local tailwater during a very cold but sunny January morning, I observed a brown trout on the outskirts of a deep pool, in the shallows near the bank. I had approached stealthily, [00:26:00.359] and had the good fortune to observe him for a few minutes. I didn't see him feeding during this time, and he was quite still. Seemed to me like he was sunning himself. To test this theory, I put a couple of tiny nymphs in front of him, and after no luck and a few minutes of waiting, I tried a couple of winter dries as well. He was not interested. I did some research on whether or not trout sunbathed like other cold-blooded critters, to no avail. So, in your experience and/or opinion, was I rudely interrupting this brownie's attempt at warming [00:26:30.299] up on a cold winter morning?"
Well, Zach, I don't know for sure. In my opinion, he could have been. I don't think I've ever seen a trout on a cold day in shallow water that wasn't actively feeding, because they usually don't go into shallow water unless they're actively feeding, because they become exposed, and it's gotta be worth it for them to do that. But the trout could [00:27:00.119] have been pushed out of a deeper area by a beaver or a muskrat or a mink or something, and was just sitting there waiting to slide back into his hidey hole. But I'm not sure. You know, it makes sense that to warm up, they might go into the sun, or maybe the fish was feeding, and was just waiting for something that you didn't throw to him. I don't know. Anyways, interesting, and we'll probably never know. [00:27:30.759]
Here's an email from Michael, from Oregon. "I've recently become infatuated with swinging wet flies for steelhead. I was wondering why the swinging wet fly's looked down on for trout, but is the seemingly preferred way to fly fish for steelhead. Why is so much tying material touted as UV? I think two of your guests have said that only fry or very young fish can see UV light. As they mature, don't they lose that ability? After one of your podcasts on casting, I went to the Scientific Anglers website, like you suggested, and found a page titled, 'How Not to Ruin Your Fly Line.' [00:28:01.440] They very strongly recommended against practice casting on grass. This article has several really good tips on do's and don'ts caring for your line. Anyway, look forward to hearing your thoughts."
So, Michael, I don't think people look down on swinging wet flies for trout. Not as many people do it as [00:28:30.380] fish nymphs or drys or streamers, but I think it's a wonderful way to fish for trout, particularly if they're interested in taking a swinging wet fly, and I've never heard of anybody that looks down on it. Maybe you've encountered somebody that does, but I don't know why. It's a very elegant and relaxing and fun way to fish. So, I don't know. I don't think it's frowned upon. [00:29:00.640] For the UV materials, see my previous question. And then thank you for recommending that section on the Scientific Anglers website about caring for lines. That's very helpful, and I urge people to go and check that out.
Here's an email from Bill in New Jersey. "It was cool meeting you and Shawn in person yesterday at the Edison Fly Fishing Show. I appreciate you taking the time to chat, and I hope you had a great time at the show. Here are the two questions I wanted to ask. First, [00:29:31.640] I fish mostly blue lines, and thanks for your terrific book, "The Orvis Guide to Small Stream Fishing." I have a good framework for scouting out new water and planning my trips. Based on this topo map, I wanna check out spots X, Y, and Z, and I figure I can hike and fish two miles of stream today. I tried the same approach last season, with a bigger river near me, and I greatly overestimated just how much water I could cover. Will you please talk about how you approach fishing new mid-size [00:30:00.019] and larger rivers solo? Second, I was reading one of Bob Clauser's fly tying books recently, and on a couple of the patterns, he recommends using circle hooks. Seems to me that circle hooks are pretty rarely used in fly tying. Why do you think that is?"
Bill, regarding bigger waters, you know, medium-sized to large waters, yeah, it's tough, both wading and just covering enough water. So, what you need to do is you need [00:30:30.900] to do some scouting, and whether that's on, might be on Google Maps, because generally, you can see larger rivers and where the riffles and pools are and things like that, where the roads are. But don't just get in the water and start fishing in a big river. Take the time to walk upstream, downstream, drive along the river, and look for water that looks fishy to you, and then [00:31:00.259] sort of fish that like a smaller stream. But you gotta get a broad overview. You gotta get a real macro view of the river. And, in general, if most of the river is really deep, look for the shallow spots. If most of the river is really shallow, look for the deep spots. And a corollary to that is if most of the river is really fast, like the Madison River, look [00:31:30.220] for the slower spots. And if most of the river is really slow, for instance, the Delaware, in your part of the world, then look for a little bit faster water. And generally, you can find the places. Trout are gonna prefer to be in two to four feet water, that's moving about one foot per second, with some protection nearby somewhere. You can find all those things, probably gonna find fish. And you may have to walk a bit to find that kind of water. So do some [00:32:00.000] scouting and exploring first before you get in the water. And then you can cover the water a little bit more thoroughly and effectively once you find a place where you think there's gonna be trout.
Regarding circle hooks, yeah, I don't know, you know. I've heard that circle hooks are great because the fish don't take them deeply, and they often hook themselves, and they're a lot easier to remove. [00:32:30.720] But honestly, I haven't used them a lot, and I should. I should experiment with them, but I haven't, so... Yeah, but I think that if Bob Clauser's using them, he's certainly a world-renowned expert. And if he believes in them, then yeah, I think more of us should be playing around with circle hooks, especially for bigger fish, bass, and saltwater fish and so on.
Jack: Hey, Tom. Thanks for answering my [00:33:00.019] question. I know you get a lot of these. My question's twofold. I was listening to one of your most recent podcasts on creating new trout fishing streams, and I've never felt so inspired to reach out with a question. My question, first of all, is, well, to give you a little backstory, I grew up actually, [inaudible 00:33:20] from right outside of Philly and I go up to North Central PA, where my grandfather lived. He was a game warden there for a few decades, and [00:33:30.180] he taught me how to fly fish, and we used to fly fish Kettle Creek every once in a while, and I was able to get up there recently to do some fishing. I caught a brook trout, so just wanted to report back that it is working, and there's some fish in there now. But I wanted to ask, how do you grapple with... For me, I'm only 22, but I feel it's my responsibility to leave our environment a better place for [00:34:00.140] a future generation. It almost makes me upset at the cards that I feel like my generation has been dealt, but what kind of responsibility do you feel like people in my shoes should take? And the second part of the question is also, what can I do to help? What would be one of the best ways to get involved? Thanks."
Tom: Well, Jack, that's a really [00:34:30.059] great question. And I think it depends on what you, what Jack is interested in protecting or preserving. So, we all have busy lives. We work or we go to school, and we have families, or not, but we have busy lives these days, and we can't do it all, and we can't worry about all the environmental problems. You have to pick a lane, and you have to devote yourself to [00:35:00.960] that particular area. So, let's say you're concerned about public access. Join an organization, particularly backcountry hunters and anglers, who are working tirelessly to help us maintain our access to public land. So, join that organization, find out if there's a local chapter in your area, volunteer, and work with them. If you're interested [00:35:30.739] in preserving trout habitat, you know, healthy habitat for wild trout, then probably Trout Unlimited is the place to go. And if you don't have the time to get out there and roll up your sleeves and plant trees, or move logs around to put some habitat in a stream, or assist with electroshocking on a stream, then give them some money. Donate some money. [00:36:00.280] But your voice has to be magnified, and you really need to join some sort of organization. You can't really do it alone. You've gotta be one voice among many. And also, just looking out for things on your own as well. If you see something that doesn't look right in a body of water, where there's pollution coming in, or what you feel is illegal dumping, or [00:36:31.460] gravel extraction or something, then make a call to your state department of environmental conservation or department of environmental quality.
So, there are lots of things you can do, but I think you have to decide first what's most important to you. What bothers you? What keeps you up at night about the future of our resource? And then pick a lane and get involved [00:37:00.039] in that area. Again, you can't do it all as an individual, so you have to kind of focus in, and put your efforts in a place where they're gonna make a difference. Of course, yes, staying involved with what's happening with government is important, unfortunately. You know, being informed. Being informed is another thing, actually. Being informed, you know, if you see environmental [00:37:30.599] writing, or something about rivers or lakes in whatever website you get your news from, or even if you maybe read a newspaper, and read all of those. Become informed. Read Trout Unlimited's magazine. Read as much of this environmental stuff. Read books on environmental issues. Be informed as much as you can, because those are gonna help you to understand the issues, and learn where you can [00:38:00.760] put your efforts forward.
Well, that's the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Dave about improving your fly fishing writing.
So, my guest today is my friend Dave Karczynski. And Dave and I met a number of years ago. I was reading an article in "Fly Fisherman" magazine about fly fishing in Poland. I knew it was by a young writer, and [00:38:30.119] I'm thinking, "Man, there aren't that many good young writers out there." And I read this article, and I said, "Wow, this guy's good. I mean, this guy's really good." And so, I don't know, somehow we got in touch. I think maybe I asked Ross Purnell for your contact info, and we talked, and we fished together. You and your brother and I fished on a tailwater, and had a wonderful time. And I've followed your work. I never miss [00:39:00.400] a Dave Karczynski article anywhere. And you have a new book out. And so we're gonna talk about that a little bit, but we're mainly gonna talk about, and you are eminently qualified for this podcast on, so, you wanna be a fishing writer, or how to become a fishing writer, how to, you know... It seems like every fly fisher that I meet thinks they have a book in them, and, you know, they wanna share it with the [00:39:30.159] world. And I guess you're here to help people do this more clearly, and in a way that excites and interests the readers?
Dave: Yeah, absolutely.
Tom: You wanna tell people a little bit about your background, so they know that they're talking to an expert here in writing, not me.
Dave: Great. Well, thank you for all those kind words, Tom. And I'll never forget that first email that I got from you, you know, talking [00:40:00.099] about that Poland essay, which is in the book, and it's now called "Cloud, castle, creek." I was so thrilled to get an email from Tom Rosenbauer, and it was great to talk about writing in a really serious way with you. I could tell from the way we talked about the written word, after we fished on the West Fork of the Delaware, that you were a serious reader, so those compliments rang all the more loudly since I learned that.
But, yeah. So, my [00:40:30.000] background is, you know, I've always fished. I've been fishing since before I can remember. Earliest memories are supported by old Polaroids of a bull-headed, a kid with a bull haircut, holding a cane pole, bluegill, and a bobber. And I've written for almost as long. I always gravitated toward the written word when I was a kid. But I never wrote about fishing. So, I fished for decades, and I wrote for decades. And it wasn't until I was [00:41:00.199] in my mid-twenties that I decided to write about fishing. And it actually wasn't a decision. And I wish I had come to it on my own, but it actually required the imploration of a good friend of mine. I was working on a novel, and I kept complaining to her that I could not make any progress on the novel because any and all free time, I was spending fishing. And I just couldn't work on this book. And then she said, "Well, why don't you give up on the novel and write about fishing?" [00:41:30.500] And when she said those words, "write about fishing," it, like, a bell went off in my head. I couldn't believe, it was the simplest idea. It was sitting in front of me my whole life, but it never occurred to me. And people have a hard time believing that.
So, I started writing about fishing, and wow, it was just, you know, this beautiful marriage of my two passions. How did I never think of that until, you know, I was in my mid-twenties? But life since has been really wonderful. I fish and write and fish and write. And the writing makes the fishing more interesting, [00:42:00.280] and the fishing makes the writing more interesting. And it's a nice little, nice little loop.
Tom: And you teach writing professionally, right?
Dave: Yes. So, I also teach writing at the University of Michigan, in Ann Arbor. And in particular, I teach the kind of form that I write. So, I write essays, narrative essays, and that's what I teach as well. So, that's become a very kind of, you know, harmonious marriage as well. And in fact, [00:42:30.340] in the winter semester, this is a shout out to all the U of M students who are deciding what classes to take, I'll be teaching a class for the first time called "Writing the Wild," which will include some fly fishing writing, and students are invited to write about hunting, trapping, camping, fishing, all those lovely enterprises that we undertake outdoors.
Tom: Oh, can I edit that class? Or can I audit that class?
Dave: You know what? We can drop you in as [00:43:00.039] our secret anonymous Zoomer. Absolutely.
Tom: I'd love that.
Dave: So, I'll get you on the roster, Tom. We start January 8th.
Tom: Okay. Well, you have 10 tips, and I'm sure we'll end up with more, but we'll start with 10 tips on becoming a fishing writer, becoming a better fishing writer, I guess.
Dave: Absolutely.
Tom: And I know I'm gonna take notes. So, let's take it away. [00:43:30.159]
Dave: Great. Well, the first thing I'll say is one of the things that makes fly fishing so wonderful is that we have this very long literary tradition.
Tom: Yeah.
Dave: And I don't know the exact numbers, but I remember, early in my writing career, I think I read that, you know, out of every 100 books, 90... I'm sorry, out of every 100 books written about fishing, 90 or 95 are written about fly fishing. So, it's a sport that has grown up with and grown up alongside the written word.
Tom: Yeah. Definitely.
Dave: So, a [00:44:00.159] lot of what makes our sport so cool is because, you know, people have been writing fly fishing books for hundreds of years. And though a lot of these books are hard to find, you know, in print, you know, you can google and find these ancient texts, you know, ancient meaning 400 or 500 years old, that have these really wonderful and surprising insights. "The Treatise of Fishing with an Angle" actually has a chapter on how to build a fly fishing [00:44:30.059] rod, but in a telescoping way, so no one can tell that you're going fishing. They think it's a hiking staff. So, even, you know, 400, 500 years ago, people were very modern in their kind of approach to secrecy.
Tom: Yeah, and I remember reading, having to read "The Complete Angler" in college English. I think I only took one English course in college, but I thought it was the most boring book I've ever read.
Dave: You know, that one, that one, yeah, that one I'm not necessarily [00:45:00.039] gonna teach for my winter semester. And I guess that brings me to another point. It's, the last hundred years, and especially the last 50, it's been, like, the heyday for fly fishing writing. There's so many good fly fishing writers out there, and we need more. So. today's tips are all about equipping, you know, the next generation of fly fishing writers with, you know, the tools to share their experiences on the water with other people, in a rich and compelling way.
Tom: That's great. Love it.
Dave: All right. So, [00:45:30.179] let's start with number one, and number one is far and away the most important. If you forget 2 to 10, that's fine. Number one is the most important, and it is show, don't tell. So, we want to show the reader a visual world. We all know that when we're thinking of our favorite novels and our favorite essays, we feel like we are there. We're watching a movie, we're moving alongside the protagonist, the writer. We are immersed in a world. [00:46:00.679] And that immersion comes from embracing specific visual language, and not embracing abstract language. And I'll give a couple of examples of that.
Tom: Yeah, that'd be good to give examples.
Dave: Yeah. So, telling. Firstly, telling means you've made an observation about the world and you've reached a conclusion based on that observation, but you're not sharing the observation with the reader. So, telling would be, "It was a beautiful evening," right? So, [00:46:30.199] okay, we get kind of a sense, but that could also mean a thousand different things. And if you ask somebody to paint it or to draw it, they really wouldn't know where to begin. If not as visual as it could be. That's telling. Okay. Showing, which is what we're going for, would be, for example, "The late afternoon sunlight sifted, by the cedars overhead, fell like a fine soft powder on the stream." So, all of a sudden, we're in this late afternoon light, and we're there, right? We can see ourselves there, [00:47:00.539] we're inhabiting this space. So, rather than tell the reader what we're feeling based on observable evidence, we're showing them that thing. We're giving them the raw data, so that they can feel it too. So we're trying to reproduce, for the reader, our experience as a person in the world. [crosstalk 00:47:24]
Tom: But in the same light, we have to be careful of what's called purple [00:47:30.360] prose, right? We don't want to over-embellish that scene that we're painting. We want it to be tight, and I don't know how you'd describe it.
Dave: Absolutely, right? So, we don't want to get carried away. And it's usually about getting one detail correct, right? So, we don't need to describe every leaf on the tree, every swirl in the eddy. But it's [00:48:00.000] about picking that one detail that's gonna make that scene come alive.
Tom: Okay. Okay.
Dave: So, another example. Instead of saying, of winter steelheading, for instance, that "It was cold and uncomfortable," we have this passage. "So I fished for another two hours until my third and final pair of gloves soaked through, and my reel only turned in stuttering rips of ice. Until I had to bring the rod to my mouth [00:48:30.099] and nibble the river from the guides, strip the meat from steel bone. Until my neoprene waders grabbed my reel like Velcro, and my left hand went so numb I had to flex my biceps for a good while to get the blood back into my digits." So, I didn't say at any point there that I was cold or uncomfortable. I communicated to the reader all those things that made me cold and uncomfortable. So, that's kind of what we mean by showing versus telling. Giving the reader [00:49:00.119] that raw data, letting them see it and feel it, so they feel like they're there in that world, and they're watching a movie, perhaps.
Tom: Now, these examples are from your book, your new book, "Calling After Water?"
Dave: Yes. I am actually smuggling some lines from the book into this. So, that was a line from a winter steelheading/lake bowing piece, called "Mad Men," and the [00:49:30.039] other one was from another essay. So, I'll be cribbing lines from the book in order to illustrate some of these points.
Tom: Great. Good.
Dave: So, brings me to point number two. So, you can't really write in this way, where you're showing specific visual detail, if you don't have those details to begin with. So, number two is the tip, carry a notebook and pen, and use them. So, we have to make these observations in order to be able [00:50:00.159] to work with them. So, you might think of the writer as a kind of cook, that must gather their ingredients, right? So, carrying a notebook and using a pen is like going to the garden, or going to the grocery store. You're gathering up the raw materials you're gonna use to construct the meal. And so, it's not enough just to carry the notebook and the pen. You've got to keep them in accessible spot, and you've got to use them. And this takes a little bit of diligence.
Tom: No kidding.
Dave: It's not always comfortable to throw a moleskin or [00:50:30.099] a small notebook in the chest pocket of your waders, but there's really no substitute for making those observations in real time. You just won't remember them.
Tom: Yeah.
Dave: And even if you think you remember them, you'll be remembering them later, when you're sitting in front of the keyboard, with much less detail than you would be able to apprehend if you were taking notes in real time.
Tom: Yep. Tell me. I am so bad at this, and I should keep a fishing log, and I try and I try, and I'm just, I'm terrible at [00:51:00.159] it, and it hurts me.
Dave: It's so difficult. I totally agree. And I don't do it all the time anymore. Whenever I was officially on assignment, I always had multiple notebooks, multiple pens. I was always writing. I still do that, but I'm not as assiduous about it. But if you want to write about an experience, and you're serious about taking your writing game, or, and even better, fly fishing writing game, to the next level, there's no substitute for taking those notes in real [00:51:30.079] time. And the kind of notes that you take are also important. So, we're not looking to simply scribble something down very generally to remember later. I advocate for sitting there on the stream, and taking the time, and putting in the mental effort to really describe it in a compelling way right then and there.
So, an example of that. I was watching some PMDs coming off [00:52:00.239] a late morning hatch in the driftless area. And they just looked so delicate. And I was studying them. I'm like, okay, how would I describe these? Right? So I had my notebook, I had my pen. And it took about five minutes, but then I was like, oh, okay. "Mayflies, frail as vapor, wafted up and off the film." So, vapor didn't come immediately, but I like that line. It kind of communicates just how delicate those flies look to me. And that is something that I would never have been [00:52:30.000] able to do days later, sitting in front of the keyboard, trying to remember how those mayflies looked.
Tom: Yeah.
Dave: Another one, you know, this one is a little bit cheap because it was... There I was, you know, on a plane, describing the view from the window, right? There's nothing to do on a plane, really. Especially if you're on a plane to Delhi, India. So, another example comes from an essay about mahseer fishing in India. [00:53:01.179] "Detroit to Boston, Boston to Dubai, Dubai to Delhi, not miles and time zones, but thresholds and wonderment. Perfect desert cities, laid out like craps tables. Yachts flecked across square blue bays. Calls to prayer, circling like birds in the light-soaked airport terminal. The extra-planetary ridges of Pakistan's high country, brutal and inscrutable in low sun. The VHS haze of downtown Delhi." [00:53:30.139] So, as an example there, you know, Delhi, it's hazy, right? What kind of hazy? It felt like watching an old VHS tape. So, all those were examples of, you know, details that I captured in the moment. Probably couldn't have remembered in retrospect. And then I had them all in my notebook, ready to go, for whenever I needed them.
Tom: Now, let me ask you a question about using the digital age.
Dave: Sure.
Tom: So, I'm not very good [00:54:00.119] at taking notes, but I do take a lot of pictures, because I think that I can go back, you know, if I'm writing about a particular place, I can pull up my images in Lightroom, and get a better sense for it. Not the best. So, you have a phone. How about taking notes on your phone, in a voice note?
Dave: Sure. And you know what? I absolutely do that too.
Tom: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Dave: I [00:54:30.079] just find, and I think for some people, it'll be the best way to take notes. I find that the extra step of them having to kind of listen, or transcribe...you know, I don't use them as...I don't end up using that language as often, but it's wonderful. I think, you know, that's just laziness on my part, right? I can take that extra step, and somehow... I'm sure AI has come along, and I can find an app that will transcribe my spoken notes into text.
Tom: Oh, easily. Easily, yeah. [00:55:00.800]
Dave: And I do, also, you know, will sometimes take images specifically, in order...as a kind of visual note-taking, right? Like, okay, I don't have time to sit and study this brook trout, like, you know, the hatch is on, there's, you know, 10 minutes remaining of spinner fall. I'm gonna take a picture that I'm gonna use to write about. But I think there is a difference between just taking pictures randomly and taking pictures with a mind to later go back and describe [00:55:30.139] them. So, [crosstalk 00:55:31] But that's a great point, and I think, you know, the thing that I'm holding in my hand right now, eight inches from my face, is also a wonderful recording tool. Especially for those who grew up writing with it, and on it.
Tom: Right. Okay. Good.
Dave: Cool. All right. So, the next step, and [crosstalk 00:55:51]
Tom: Now we're on number three, right? I'm keeping track here, Dave. We're on number three.
Dave: Oh, yeah. We're on number three. Yeah. So, and this is about essays, [00:56:00.440] right? Which is, I think, the primary form that we encounter in fly fishing literature. But the essay needs a driving question. And this gets to the difference between journaling for ourselves and writing for an audience. So, a driving question creates a forward movement through the piece. It makes the reader want to know what happens next, and it kind of pulls them through it. Because there is no contract with the reader that they have to [00:56:30.019] read our words, right?
Tom: Right.
Dave: They can read a paragraph and they can put it down. They can close the browser. They can walk away. So, by involving a driving question, we're creating this incentive to read along, and we're creating this kind of what-happens-next sort of sentiment in the reader. And it doesn't have to be a super-specific or complicated question. It can be as simple as, "I've heard this about this river. [00:57:00.260] Is it really all it's cracked up to be?" It's still a question that we can answer over the course of the essay, and that the reader can understand along with us.
Tom: Okay.
Dave: So, this kind of embraces the idea of the essay in its kind of original incarnation. So, the essay comes from a French word meaning "to try." So we can think of the essay as, you know, an attempt to answer a question. And I have a good example of that. This comes from the second Poland essay [00:57:30.500] I wrote. So, let's see. I'll just kind of cut to the middle. So, this is, there's a passage about me kind of always daydreaming and blanking out, and not paying attention to important parts of the world because I'm thinking about fishing. The line begins, "And while I mostly accepted such departures from reality as the natural and inescapable functioning of my brain, in certain moments of dire crisis, I would find myself wondering, with a combination of anxiety and shame, how [00:58:00.539] it was that I'd wound up with this janky brain, whose default setting was fish. Where had this cognitive defect come from? Who or what was to blame? It was on a mission to answer this question that I found myself at the age of 32, on a bridge over Poland's San river, standing beside an idling rental car, and watching the rise forms of hundreds of Grayling, as they darned themselves to the film."
So, there, it's just a question like, hey, why am I so obsessed with water? Is there somebody [00:58:30.300] in the family history that was also some kind of water junkie? And simple question, but it drove the whole piece. It's something that I kind of tried to answer at various points throughout the piece. And that's, having a question, a driving question, whether it's explicit or not, gives the piece shape, and it gives the reader really something to read for. And again, I think it's a thing that really distinguishes the journal entry, that's written for ourselves, and the [00:59:00.000] literary essay, that's written for others.
Tom: Mm-hmm. Okay. Got it.
Dave: Okay. So, now we're talking about the drafting process. We're at number four. And when I say drafting process, I mean that from the time you write the first letter to the time you, you know, edit the last period, we're moving through drafts. And serious writers move through many, [00:59:30.079] many drafts. And drafting, or revising, is not editing. So, I think a lot of younger writers think that, you know, changing the structure of a sentence, or moving a comma around, or changing a word, that that's revising. I would call that editing. That's what happens at the, you know, in the very last stages. But in the early and middle stages of the writing process, revising is really re-envisioning. It's trying to maybe arrive at that driving question. Okay. What's the question I'm trying to answer [01:00:00.159] in this essay? I've gotta write a couple pages in order to figure that out. Why am I interested in this subject? I don't quite know. Maybe I ought to write a couple pages to figure it out.
So, the thing to embrace is that complexity and originality emerge through this longitudinal process, of writing and rewriting and throwing things out, writing and rewriting and throwing things out. So, I tell my students at the university, can always tell if it's a first draft or a seventh draft by [01:00:30.179] how, you know, complex and original the writing is. You can tell if somebody just sat down, wrote it, and didn't think too much about it. You can also tell if someone wrote and rewrote and rewrote, because they're saying something different, something particularly arresting, something novel and new. So, never... Don't think of sitting down and writing as something that you do in a day. I am [01:01:00.099] a crazy drafter, by which I mean, I'm talking 10, 11, 12 drafts, right? That's a little bit much.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Dave: But if you're just kind of, you know, starting out, and taking your writing more seriously, three or four drafts is a good kind of, you know, warm-up. And we're looking to be surprised, right? We're looking for things to happen that we weren't expecting. We're looking to discover connections. Like, oh, something's happening on page one and on page five. And there's a relationship [01:01:30.340] between those two ideas. I didn't know that when I wrote them, but now I see it. So, we're spending time, we're listening to the language, and we're thinking about how these different ideas relate to each other.
Which brings me to number five. And I don't know what level of profanity is acceptable in this family program, so I'll censor myself. Number five is...
Tom: I see the original word you wrote here. [01:02:00.579] But you go ahead.
Dave: Yeah. You got the original. So, number five is, embrace the crappiness of your early drafts. So, no one is gonna work through multiple drafts if they're uncomfortable with bad language on the page, right? And I think becoming comfortable with really bad language, with a really crappy first draft or second draft, is essential to giving yourself the space to kind of feel comfortable trying things out. So, to [01:02:30.320] impress this upon my students, I'll ask them, early in the essay process, I'll say, "On a scale of 1 through 10, how crappy is your first draft?" And I want them to kind of embrace that crappiness. You know, "My first draft is so bad, it's a 10." Or, "Mine is an 11." And the reason is, if your first draft is not crappy at all, it's usually a sign that you're playing it super safe. You're writing something that you've thought about before. There's nothing surprising [01:03:00.480] in it. There's nothing weird in it. So, I encourage my students, and, you know, by extension, your listeners, to think of yourself as a mad scientist when you're beginning to work on an essay. Let's write something absolutely terrible. We're gonna be banging ideas together, throwing, you know, weird words next to each other. We're gonna try and see what's possible. We're gonna try to be original here. So, five is embracing the crappiness of your early drafts, [01:03:30.539] to give yourself space to try out weird things.
And of course, if you're not drafting and redrafting, you don't have that luxury, right? If you only sit down and write it once, you don't have the luxury of, you know, wallowing in the early thoughts, and kind of trying to discover something interesting. So, I always believe that interesting and original things emerge through the drafting process. And, you know, I do it a lot, so I trust the process, [01:04:00.460] right?
Tom: Yeah.
Dave: And, to wit, one of my friends once said, "Hey, I wanna see the draft that you're working on." And this was a Patagonia story. It's called "Debonair Dirtbag" in the book. And it was written, the friend who asked me was in the story, right? So he had a vested interest in seeing how this piece was taking shape. And I told him, I said, "It's not legible right now. It's not legible at all." And he said, "I just wanna see it." And so I sent it over to him, and he replied back and he said, "This is [01:04:30.039] unreadable." Yes. It's unreadable, it makes no sense. It's written in my personal shorthand. I'm trying things out. This is how, you know, the early part of my drafting process looks. So, it's gonna be different for everybody, but early in my drafting process, you can tell it's the English language. But beyond that, it's hard to surmise. You know, I'm just trying to, you know, throw things to the wall and see what sticks.
Tom: When you do early drafts, do you do them handwritten or do you use a keyboard?
Dave: [01:05:00.880] You know, early drafts, I do keyboard. Just because there's a lot of... I can write faster on a keyboard. That's an important part of my early drafting process.
Tom: Yeah, yeah. Right.
Dave: But yeah. And point number seven, we talk about printing it out, but printing stuff out and working by hand is an essential part of my process. Should we skip to that one?
Tom: Yeah, we can do seven and then go back to six. I'll allow you that leeway.
Dave: Okay. I appreciate that. [01:05:30.719] So, printing it out, right? So, I'm a firm believer that the human brain is a different tool depending on what's in its hand. So, if you've got a keyboard in front of you, your brain's working one way. If you've got a pen in your hand, it's working a different way. And what I have found, and everyone has a different process, right? But my best, deepest thinking happens with a pen or pencil in my hand, on a page, but it's when I've printed something out. So, I have, let's say, a [01:06:00.159] third draft, which for me means you can kind of read it. It's a third draft. I've figured out a central question. I kind of know what I'm doing, but it's still just not good. There's nothing really there. So, I'll sit down with that, print it out, with a pen in my hand. And that, for me, is where all the magic happens. If I couldn't do that, I don't know if I would ever have written a single essay, let alone a book of essays. So, I'm a firm believer that getting those ideas on [01:06:30.260] the page, and then getting the page in front of you and getting a pen in your hand, it transforms the brain. There's things you can do with a pen that you cannot do on a keyboard. You can make shapes, you can write squiggly lines, you can draw long lines, you can flip the page over. In disgust, you can crumple up the page and throw it in the wastebasket, to really show those bad ideas that they're bad.
But there's a tremendous utility, I think, in printing it out. [01:07:00.119] And also, it gives you this superpower, if you put your computer, and ideally, phone in a different room, and just sit there with your manuscript and your pen. All of a sudden, there are no distractions. And let's not forget that we write in an era of ultimate distraction.
Tom: Yeah, we sure do. Yeah.
Dave: I remember telling my students 10 years ago, "The thing that you're writing on is the most distracting thing that's ever been invented by human [01:07:30.320] beings." Like, you're shopping on it, you're watching movies on it, you're planning your next fishing trip on it. Do yourself a favor, and give yourself at least some space away from the most distracting things that have ever been created by human beings, and just sit with your text." I would sometimes, back when I had more free time and didn't have a 2-year-old and a farm, I'd print out my manuscript, and I would leave my phone at home, and [01:08:00.239] I'd grab a pen, and I would just go for a three-hour walk, and it was just me and the manuscript. Sit on the bench, get a coffee. And not having that phone really centers you on the writing. And it was always this really wonderful space, where I would really start to enjoy going deeper into the essay. So, that, for me, is where the magic has always happened. That's the most fun part for me. I'm like, "Yes. I'm gonna draft three or four. I can print it out, and [01:08:30.159] just spend time with it." So, if no one's ever tried that, I highly recommend you do get away from your phone, get away from your computer, and go just spend some quality time, one on one, with your work in progress.
Tom: Great idea.
Dave: All right. So, here we are. We're backtracking now to number six. So, this is encouraging people, in the drafting process, to overwrite, to write too much. So, [01:09:00.159] you know, I say this to my students. You know, two different people will write a 1,000-word essay, right? They're both using 1,000 words. Writer one will have very little information in the 1,000 words. Writer two might have, you know, 20 times as much information. Visual detail, sensory detail, ideas. There's just so much happening. I think we've all seen that in writing, right? Like, wow, there's just a lot going on here. It's really hard-working language. And [01:09:30.800] that comes from writing too much to start, and then paring it down, getting rid of redundancies, you know, expressing ideas in their simplest terms. So, I tell people, let's say you've got, let's say your editor says, "Hey, 2,000 words max on this essay, you know, about your trip to, you know, British Columbia steelhead fishing." Well, don't let your rough draft be 2,000 words. Give yourself, [01:10:00.520] you know, 3,000, 4,000 words, to kind of play around and write the essay. And then, if you can take a 4,000-word essay, and boil it down to 2,000 words, making effort to keep all of your ideas, just finding more parsimonious ways to express them, then all of a sudden, you've got a 2,000-word essay with just a ton of story in it, a ton of, you know, detail in it, just a ton of life in it. And a coffee example I [01:10:30.060] give is, it's the difference between a weak pot of coffee and a shot of espresso. So, we're trying to create, by the time we get to our final draft, just espresso, right? We've boiled out all the water. We're translating, you know, inefficient language into the most efficient language, and we are giving the reader just a direct shot of, you know, caffeine, we'll say. So, overwrite at first, and then pare it down.
Tom: [01:11:00.020] And what about killing your darlings?
Dave: Oh, yeah. You know what? That's a William Faulkner idea. And sometimes, your favorite sentence in the piece just doesn't belong. It doesn't work. And that's something that should happen. When you're in the drafting process, and you're at 4,000 words, it's often because you've got a couple different things going on. It's three [01:11:30.060] essays in one. So there's always this point, for me at least, in the drafting process, where I'm like, "Wow." And now this essay, that has five different things going on, has to become itself. It has to, like, you know, it has to get rid of all that excess stuff. It has to, like...it's an essay about this, not about that.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Dave: So, yeah. The good news is, you're killing your darlings, but you can always, you know, just copy and paste that sentence. I usually have an overflow page. Like, here's an overflow [01:12:00.100] page of just great one-liners. And you know what's crazy? I had this one darling that I killed, you know, and I couldn't find a spot, not only in the essay, I couldn't find a spot in the entire book for this line. So I'm not gonna share the line, because I want it to appear in a future essay.
Tom: Oh, come on.
Dave: But it's a [crosstalk 01:12:22] line.
Tom: Come on. Share it. Come on.
Dave: Okay. Okay. I'll share it. So, the line is not perfect, but the [01:12:30.239] sentiment is I was, you know, fishing a Hendrickson, you know, spinner fall, which, in Michigan, we're talking last light. And the big fish, in still water, or very slow-moving water, are just rising so subtly. And it was, the rise form was like a single snowflake hitting the water. Like, that's what it looked like. It was just a single snowflake landing on the water. And I was like, "Oh, I love..." I wrote that down. Like, "Oh, it's like a single snowflake landing on [01:13:00.079] the water." That's how subtle the rise form was. And it was a really good fish. But I just, there was never a place. Well, there was just never a place in any of the essays where it made sense to use that, so [crosstalk 01:13:11]
Tom: Oh, I'm gonna use that one before you come out with your next book.
Dave: We know. It's out there now, right? So, whoever can write it first. But yeah, but [crosstalk 01:13:21]
Tom: No, we'll save it for you, but it is a great line.
Dave: Yeah. But it's a great question, and it speaks to the fact that, like, sometimes, the [01:13:30.359] line that we like the best is just, doesn't fit, right?
Tom: Yeah, yeah. Yep.
Dave: So, once an essay kind of is in the later part, in later draft, I always feel like it has its own identity and momentum, like water. Like, pour water down a hill, and it's gonna carve its way. And, you know, it's hard to force the water out of its way. So, the essay kind of starts to acquire this natural flow. It kind of, like, becomes more confident in itself, and [01:14:00.239] it becomes really hard to try to push it in the direction of, like, "Okay, I gotta drop that line." It just, it doesn't wanna do that. And it just doesn't work, for whatever reason. So, but yeah. So, write too much, pare down, and, you know, acknowledge that sometimes you're just gonna have to get rid of sentences, and try to use them as seeds, you know, to plant and grow future essays.
Tom: Mm-hmm. Okay. Good idea.
Dave: All right. So, [01:14:30.340] we got to "print it out," which is really important. And so we're kind of getting closer to the end. And let's see. Did I... Okay. So, ending...
Tom: This is number eight.
Dave: Number eight, right? So, this is ending in scene. And in scene, by the two words "in scene," I mean the opposite of summary. So, a generic example of summary would be, you know, the writer, in the final paragraph, taking a deep [01:15:00.140] breath, and saying, "In conclusion, I suppose what life is really all about is, you know, sunsets and puppies, and without them, really, where would we be?" So, that's an example of, you know, it's summary, it's reflection. You're not in scene. Things aren't happening. There's no kind of, you know, birds flying through the sky. So, one of the ways you can think about the two building blocks of, you know, the essay, or in any [01:15:30.060] narrative, is, you know, some things are scene, some things are summary. Some things are, you know, descriptions. Some things are reflection.
So, I'm a huge advocate of ending in scene. And it wasn't until I was putting this together for you, Tom, that I realized that I'm like, oh, my gosh. I always end in scene. Like, I couldn't find an example where I wasn't ending in scene. And it's something that people don't often do, because in high school, you're trained to kind of, you know, begin that final paragraph, "In conclusion," comma, and then you give your thinking about the piece.
Tom: Yeah. [01:16:00.560] Yeah.
Dave: But, ending in scene... Oh, there we go. Here, the... Ending in scene, it doesn't narrow the story down to a single point. It doesn't reduce the story to one thing. It rather opens it up, and it, the reader has this image, and they walk away from it with something to think about, so, it doesn't, like, you know, put this hard coda on it. It rather, you [01:16:30.079] know, invites the reader to wander. So that's why I like ending in scene. And, if we have time, I could read, you know, one of my final paragraphs.
Tom: I would love that.
Dave: Okay. So, this is from a Argentina story, called "Debonair Dirtbag." The final paragraph begins, "But we did, of course. There was more fishing to be done. In a fishing life, [01:17:00.279] which is the one thing my maybe not-so-Doppelganger Doppelganger and I most definitely share, there is always more fishing to be done. I drowsed in the backseat as we headed back to Paulino's, listening to Justin talk about all the lakes we'd fish over the next week, the deep, cold high-country lakes, with only numbers for names. After a while the radio came on, but I knew by now to listen below the music, and soon found what I wanted to hear. Just under [01:17:30.140] the electric guitar, and just above the rush of highway, Justin was humming an Icaro, but it was a new one, with a different melody and a different pitch. What did this one do? Who was this one for? Somewhere off in the distant mountains, in the lonely lakes where big trout sulk, the water started to quiver." So, you know, I didn't take a deep breath and say, "In summary," or "In conclusion," so, we're ending in scene, and [01:18:00.140] the challenge to ending in scene effectively, it's like, all right, what's the right scene to end on?
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Dave: And this was something that I just discovered through the drafting process, because this was in the middle of a two-week trip. We just fished one week. We had another week of fishing to go. And originally, I was gonna do, like, you know, a narrative that took place over the course of two weeks. And, like, my early draft was that. It was, like, week one, week two. But then, yeah, it just, you know, I got this idea to end here, [01:18:30.520] you know, during the drafting process, and I really liked it. Like, you know, it was a nice feeling. You'd just fished for a week. You had great fishing, and then you've got another week to go.
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Dave: That's always a wonderful place for an angler to be. You know?
Tom: It is. It sure is.
Dave: [crosstalk 01:18:43] You know? Okay. So, now we're kind of moving off the page, away from the writing process. Our final two tips are really just kind of taking more of a bird's-eye view [01:19:00.239] on the act of writing. So, point nine is figure out what makes you tick as a writer. So, I like to think that, you know, as writers, we're all like tricky old trucks, like, you know, you have to do this to get it started. You have to, like, you know, do things just so. So, we're old jalopies, and we work best if we're very deliberate, and kind of, you know, jimmying and shimmying. [01:19:30.199] So, and different people work differently, right? Some writers write the best from, you know, four to five a.m. Others, late at night. Some people write great with music, or not with music. Some people like to write in busy restaurants, or some people do their best work, you know, in a field of sunflowers. So, I think by paying attention to when you work best, to when it's the most fun for you, when you can, like, write the longest, maybe, you can [01:20:00.279] increase the odds of, you know, successful writing sessions.
So, I know, for instance, that, you know, I write best from, like, 5:00 to 6:30 in the morning. After 7:00, it's kind of like, my new stuff is done. Like, after 7:00, it's all other kinds of things, but kind of new stuff getting generated, I'm done by 7:00. But then, you know, if I print stuff out and go for a walk, that can happen, you know, anytime in [01:20:30.079] the afternoon. So, I think it's just becoming aware, trying a bunch of different things out, right? Writing in a bunch of different locations, you know, coffee, tea, a beer, like, what's the best beverage, you know, for different stages of the drafting process, so...
Tom: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dave: So, I think, you know, just, you know, spending some time. So, you know, after six months, you're like, "Oh, I'm this kind of writer. I do my best work when this is happening. I do this kind of work when I'm doing this," so that you can kind of put yourself in a position to succeed. [01:21:00.100] Okay. And...
Tom: Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting. I've discovered that I'm best at, like, mid to late afternoon, which is what you would think would be the worst time, because, you know, your body's kind of at a lull at that time of day, your mind is supposedly at a lull, but I've found that that works for me. So, yeah. You're right. It's everybody...
Dave: Yeah. If in that lull, that's where the ideas come to you, so that's perfect.
Tom: I guess.
Dave: So then you can, you know, arrange your schedule, so during that lull, especially [01:21:30.119] when you've got a deadline coming up, you can take advantage of it.
Tom: Yep. Yep.
Dave: Okay. Lastly, point number 10 is to read like a writer. And reading like a writer means that, yes, you're reading and enjoying everything on the page, but at the same time, you're also wondering, like, how did they do it? So, every book is, like, you know, we're popping open the hood of the car, [01:22:00.039] and we're seeing how the engine works, right? We're always trying to figure things out. So, this means, for me, that I'm always reading with a pen in my hand or a pencil, and that usually, like, you know, I'll have a hardcover version of a book, that I just kind of, like, maybe read for pleasure, but if I'm trying to figure out how it works, I'll get a used, crappy paperback for, like, $2 from Amazon, and I will just destroy it. Dog ears, writing, highlights, all kinds of things. [01:22:30.479] And how I describe it to my student is that, you know, writing is like any other, you know, act or art, where there's all these different moves you could do.
So, if you were, a football player, let's say you were a defensive end, your job is to rush the quarterback. You would observe the tape of all these different edge rushers, see what their move is, you know, what they do with their hands to get around the defender. And you would build those moves into your repertoire. If you were a chef, you'd be looking to see, you know, how people, [01:23:00.020] you know, finish off their, you know, seared salmon. If you're a dancer, you know, like, okay, how does this person... Okay. That's a moonwalk. Okay. I can incorporate that move. So, we can also do that as writers. So, when you're reading, and you get to something that you just like, you love that sentence, or you love a paragraph, or something happens on the page that gives you pause, the thing to do is, like, stop and try to figure out, like, well, what just happened there?
Tom: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Dave: What's the move? How can I duplicate that? And, you know, talking to [01:23:30.079] the book in the margins, you know, with a pen or a pencil, I think is a great way to just get into the groove of, you know, studying, you know, how writing works. So, yeah. So, I think that's an important thing. And the great thing is there's so much great fly fishing writing out there, you know, from the past 50 years, especially. You could spend a decade of reading every day and learning every day, and seeing all these different moves that different writers make.
Tom: And [01:24:00.180] I would argue that you're probably gonna get better ideas reading stuff that's not about fishing, because you're gonna come up with some interesting ways of expressing an idea that maybe haven't been done in fishing writing before, right?
Dave: Yeah, absolutely. So, you're not limited. So, like, to become a better fishing writer, you can read absolutely anything, and you're just still looking at those moves. So, I used to be really huge [01:24:30.060] into Vladimir Nabokov, and he had these just wonderful insect imitations. So, a line that I've always been jealous of, he was describing the motion that midges make. And he said that they were, that midges were "darning the air in one spot." And then now, whenever I look at midges, I'm like, "Oh," you know, "yes, they are darning the air in one spot." So, I learned a lot personally from, you know, Vladimir Nabokov. And, but yeah, so, who's [01:25:00.060] your favorite writer? Study that. You know, get a pen in your hand, think about looking under the hood of what's going on, identifying the moves, and then put those moves in your fishing writing. That's a great point.
Tom: Great.
Dave: Yeah. So, those are my 10 tips, Tom, for [crosstalk 01:25:18]
Tom: Those are awesome.
Dave: ...making headway in your fishing writing.
Tom: Those are awesome tips, and I am gonna take all of those to heart, and I've got a magazine piece that's overdue, and I better get to work. So you've given me [01:25:30.199] some ideas, and some ways to approach it.
Dave: Yeah, you know, there's nothing quite like a deadline to get a person writing, [crosstalk 01:25:40]
Tom: Yeah.
Dave: You know, there was a time that I didn't have deadlines. And I remember, in my mid-twenties, I could spend a year on a single essay, and it would stop getting better after three weeks, but I would just spend a year on it because it was never due. So, point number 11, if there was one, create artificial deadlines if [01:26:00.000] you need to. Tell your friend to pretend to be an irate editor, demanding the piece be done.
Tom: Yeah. That's a good one. That's a good one. I would add another one that was told to me by Robert F. Jones. He was a great, the late Robert F. Jones. He was a great journalist and a good friend. He lived in the area, and wrote for "Sports Illustrated," and "TIME," "TIME" magazine, I think. And he said [01:26:30.180] that when you're writing, make sure that you never have your critics in the back of your head. Make sure that the person you're writing to is this, a person who's gonna really enjoy and learn from what you're writing, and don't have those critics niggling at you in the background, because it'll really [01:27:00.239] put you into writer's block.
Dave: Yeah. And, you know, writer's block is, you know, it happens to all of us, and figuring out [inaudible 01:27:09] a way to overcome it, and that's a great bit of advice there. You know, if we're censoring ourselves. and we're already thinking about how something's going to be received, you know, you're crippling your creativity, so that's a great point.
Tom: Yeah. How do you...you got any tips on removing yourself from writer's block, or resetting [01:27:30.140] yourself?
Dave: Yeah. So, well, it's a little bit cheap, but usually the way that I've had to overcome my writer's block is, because there is an editor breathing down my neck, right? So... But what I have found from the process is, like, if you make yourself just start working, even if you think you have no ideas, once words get on the screen, they begin to have a life of their own. So, for me, [01:28:00.539] it's from trusting the process. I know that these words are gonna suck, these first, you know, this first page of words is gonna be bad, but I know that I have to put the letters on the page, and then they're gonna start talking to each other, and then something's going to happen.
Tom: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Dave: So, for me, it's faith in the process. Like, it has always happened, and it's gonna happen. And also, it gets back to kind of embracing the crappiness. Like, telling myself it's gonna be bad. Because I think when people get writer's block, it's because they're like, "Oh, I'm gonna [01:28:30.039] be anxious if I have a page of terrible language looking back at me." And if you can convince yourself that we all have to start that way, and it's actually good to be really bad in the beginning, maybe it makes the act of beginning a little bit easier. Though, of course, you know, I encourage writers to try to write for publication, to get pieces out into the world, to make, you know, themselves accountable, whether it's, you know, reaching out to an editor of a fly [01:29:00.119] fishing publication, and promising something by a certain deadline, or telling a friend that they wanna be done with something on a certain schedule because, it can be really hard to write otherwise.
And, yeah. So, I think deadlines are good. Like, I definitely, you know, I never wrote for a magazine until I was in my late twenties. I was always just writing, you know, I went to graduate school in fiction writing, so I was always [01:29:30.180] just sitting at the desk, you know, with a blank screen, and, like, no...beholden to no one. And it was very inefficient, and I spent a lot of time just kind of, like... I was working on a novel. I wrote the novel twice, and never finished it either time. So, I have two 75% done novels, both the same novel, but just with a kind of a different voice, different mood, different tone. So, that's how inefficient a [01:30:00.220] person can be. They could write two versions of the same novel, not complete either. So, for me, writing for magazines, and having an editor say, "It's due June 1," that really helped me kind of get off my butt, and get things done. And I'm reminded of this Oscar Wilde quote, which is, "Books are never finished. They are only abandoned." And I do wanna mention that as well, because you're always gonna feel like there's other things that you can do, like, "Oh, I [01:30:30.420] could make this better. I should be doing this. I could be doing that." We all feel that way, you know, even, you know, literary titans from the days of yore, but at a certain point, you just have to abandon it, give it to the editor, and go on to the next one.
Tom: Yeah. Well, that's a great thought to end on.
Dave: I agree. I like that one.
Tom: Well, David, thank you so much. This has been a really terrific podcast, and I'm sure gonna be of great interest to people, because I know nearly every [01:31:00.319] fly fisher...behind every fly fisher, there's a writer somewhere, waiting to come out.
Dave: I agree. And, you know, we need more words, and it's one of the things that makes our sport so great and so unique. So, you know, clarion call to everyone, write about fishing.
Tom: Yeah. And before leave you, we wanna mention your new book. Once again, it's called "Calling After Water." Is it...who published it?
Dave: This is published by Lyons Press...
Tom: Lyons [01:31:30.199] Press. Okay.
Dave: ...who, you know, has published so many amazing fishing books, and hunting books, over the past couple of decades. I was joking around with a friend of mine. I think 40% to 60% of my bookshelf is Lyons Press.
Tom: Yeah. Or Stackpole.
Dave: Wonderful press.
Tom: They're both owned by the same company now, so... Yeah, they [crosstalk 01:31:51]
Dave: Yeah. So, yeah. "Calling After Water" is the book. You can find it...you should be able to find it everywhere now you can buy it through my website, davekarczynski.com, [01:32:00.239] through MidCurrent. It's available at the MidCurrent store. Both of those copies will come with...they'll be signed copies, but if you prefer Amazon, Barnes and Noble, your local bookstore, it should be there as well.
Tom: Great. Well, thank you, Dave. Thank you so much. It's always fun talking to you, and I appreciate you taking the time today.
Dave: Absolutely, Tom. Total pleasure. And thanks for the opportunity to talk about writing and fishing at the same [01:32:30.039] time.
Tom: Yeah.
Dave: A rare treat.
Tom: Yeah, fun. All right, Dave. Thank you. Thank.
Dave: Thank you. Take care.
Tom: Talk to you soon.
Announcer: Thanks for listening to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast," with Tom Rosenbauer. You could be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at