Be Prepared for Medical Emergencies When Fly Fishing, with Mike Tayloe
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And my guest this week is Mike Tayloe, or Tayloe, as he prefers to be called. He likes to be called by his last name. And Tayloe is an expert in wilderness medicine. He's also been a guide and [00:00:30.000] an EMT, but Tayloe has instructed many, many, many Orvis-endorsed guides in wilderness medicine and dealing with emergencies. And I've gotten some requests before to do something on, you know, what do you do in case of emergency when you're on a fly fishing trip? And there's good news and there's bad news. The bad news is that we're not going to be able to give you a course on wilderness medicine or emergency procedures [00:01:00.500] for a fly fishing trip. That would be...it wouldn't be good for you, and it would probably be unethical.
So what Tayloe is going to do is going to tell us how to learn. You've got to get some training first. He's going to tell you the best places to get this kind of training and also how to put together your own first aid kit. You can either buy a prepackaged one, as I did, or you can make [00:01:30.420] your own, but it's an essential thing to have. And so he's going to go through the various parts that you're going to need in that kit. But first of all, you need to get some training, and Mike will tell us all how we can get the proper training. Basically, the same kind of emergencies that you have on a fly fishing trip are going to be similar to what you have at home, except you're not going to be able to dial 911 and have a rescue squad or an ambulance there [00:02:00.000] in a few minutes. Anyway, I think it's a valuable thing. I certainly learned a lot. And personally, I'm not...at least until this podcast, I wasn't well prepared to deal with those kinds of things when I'm off alone or with a friend a couple of miles from a road. So I hope you'll learn something from it, and maybe it'll get you out of a tough situation someday.
And before we do the Fly Box, [00:02:30.180] I just want to let you know about one of the Orvis-endorsed operations. The lodge we're going to talk about this week is Firehole Ranch, and I have a long history with Firehole Ranch. In fact, I was there visiting and looking at the ranch even before it ever opened as a fly fishing lodge back in the early days of the Orvis-endorsed program. Vern Bressler, kind of the creator, [00:03:00.020] along with Leigh Perkins of the endorsed program, told me about a third lodge that he had found after Three Rivers and Crescent H Ranch. And it was on the shores of Hebgen Lake, and it was an old kind of a family cabin and homes, and they wanted to turn it into a fishing lodge. And he was looking for a name, and I actually suggested the name for Firehole Ranch. I don't even think the people at Firehole Ranch know that, but I said, "Well, Vern, [00:03:30.439] everybody loves the Firehole. Why don't we call it the Firehole Ranch?" And that's where it got its name.
But I visited this operation many times. They're rustic but really elegant cabins. They're handcrafted in the 1940s. The lodge has amazing food, a great staff. It's on the shores of Hebgen Lake, which is an impoundment on the Madison River. And [00:04:00.479] they fish the Madison. They fish the Henry's Fork, the Gallatin, and the Ruby. And they can also take trips in Yellowstone Park, and you can fish the Firehole at the right time of the season. They also offer horseback trips to remote mountain lakes, and you can just do horseback riding or hiking if you want. But one of my very favorite lodges, and you can find out about this lodge and many others if you go to [00:04:30.040] orvis.com/adventures and look at the interactive map, see where you want to go, and find a place that we have visited and we have vetted and we recommend to you, our valuable customers.
All right, let's do the Fly Box. And the Fly Box is where you ask me questions or pass along a tip, and I try to answer them, try to find the answer for you if I can. [00:05:00.560] You can send me your questions at
"Love the podcast. Listen regularly while in the car on my trips into the mountains. A few questions around weighted nymph rigs. I use two different styles. The 'Provo' bounce rig, weights are attached on the point or end of the rig with one or two flies above. The other style, an in-line rig where the split shot is attached above the flies between the top fly and the indicator. Question one, when do you use one style over the other? Are there factors that determine [00:06:00.160] if one style works better than the other? Question two, regarding the in-line rig, does it make sense to place a split shot above the top fly in a two-nymph configuration, or would I put the split shot between the two nymphs? Question three, is it preferable to use fewer number of larger split shot or a higher number of smaller split shot to get to the desired weight? I take customers out often with local guides over the summer, and they typically use a higher number of small shot [00:06:30.220] versus fewer large shot. One additional question, what's your take on furled leaders? I've tried one this winter in my 7.5-foot 3-weight, and it seems to work well. However, I've only used it to nymph in relatively shallow water under an indicator, not used it for dries. Do they turn over well in a dry fly application?"
So, James, you know, I think that you probably know I'm going to say this, but how you attach your split shot is really going to depend [00:07:00.019] on the water type and how deep you want to go and whether there are a lot of snags on the bottom. The first one that you indicated, the Provo bounce rig is often called a drop shot rig, and that's actually illegal in some places, I believe, in the entire state of California. So you need to be careful where you use this. But I see this as being used in a place where there are a lot of places where you're going to get snagged on the bottom because your weights [00:07:30.089] are less likely to get hung up than your flies because they're going to slide over the rocks and stuff. And where you really want to slide along the bottom and bottom bounce, that's probably a good thing to use.
And then, in all other situations, particularly if you want to fish your flies more mid-water and you don't want to add a lot of weight, I think that the in-line rig is better. And whether you put that shot above your one or two flies [00:08:00.000] or between your two flies is really...I don't know, it's really up to you. It's going to cast a little bit better if it's between the two flies, but people do it both ways. And if your flies are fairly close together, you probably want to put it above them. And if they're further apart, then maybe you want to put the shot in between. It depends on how much space you want between the two flies, and that can vary anywhere from eight inches to a couple of feet. [00:08:30.160] And again, it depends on what's working that day. I can't really give you any hard and fast rules.
The one thing I will recommend though on your third question is that you're much better off using a number of smaller shot because it's a lot easier to add just a little bit. Generally, you start with the smallest shot you think you can get away with, and if you're not getting down deep enough, you're not occasionally ticking bottom, [00:09:00.320] then you add another one, and then you add another one until you get to the desired depth. That's hard to do with just one bigger shot. You can't really modify it. So one of the things I might recommend that you try is soft lead, tungsten putty. That stuff, it's sometimes hard to keep on a leader, but it's a lot less likely to snag, and it's a lot easier to adjust your weight using tungsten putty. Just be careful not [00:09:30.240] to cast too hard. But typically, in nymph fishing, you don't want to do a lot of false casting. You don't want to cast too hard. So I would try some tungsten putty as well as those hard split shot, which I find very hard to remove if I want to take one off. The next email is from Trev.
"One tip based on something you said in the most recent podcast is that you should give 'The Compleat Angler' another shot. While there's much about bait fishing and cooking one's catch, [00:10:00.220] and the science of the text is certainly outdated, it's a fun little treatise that I try to read every year. One of the funnier vignettes between the instruction is when Piscator offers Venator, his scholar, his rod to angle for trout because Venator cannot catch one. Piscator immediately hooks two more. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm sure we have all had that companion that always seems to catch fish when we cannot. Like it was said on the podcast with Dave Karczynski, [00:10:30.240] truly very modern in outlook. On to a question. I recently purchased a fly tying mystery kit from a Canadian conservation organization and received some McFly foam. I've never been and likely will never fish for salmon, steelhead, or the resident trout that follow them upstream. I live in Alberta. Local regulations often close basically all streams during spawning times. Are there other uses for egg foam other than egg patterns?"
Well, Trev, [00:11:00.000] thank you for your tip on "The Compleat Angler." I read it in college, and my personal opinion is life is too short to read "The Compleat Angler" again. So there's other things that are going to be far ahead of "The Compleat Angler" on my reading list. Regarding fly foam, yeah, that's a fairly useful material and not just for egg patterns. Now, just because you don't fish [00:11:30.080] for salmon and steelhead and you don't have migratory trout doesn't mean trout won't eat egg flies, and they will also eat them outside of spawning season. And if there are suckers or whitefish around, you can imitate eggs of other species. So egg flies are perfectly reasonable imitation of a food that fish eat. They're like worm flies. Worm flies, fish eat worms. So don't feel bad about fishing egg flies.
But one of the uses [00:12:00.000] that I find for McFly foam is for a parachute post. There's a parachute beetle that I tie, I think it's still in the Orvis catalog, that I wanted a tuft of something bright that stuck up above the fly, but I didn't want it to stick up too high, and I want something, like, a wind to parachute post on. And I found that when I use that McFly foam in a bright orange color, I could make a decent [00:12:30.100] parachute post out of it, and it spreads out. Once you tie it in long, you wind your hackle around it, and then you pull up on it and cut it short, close to the fly, like you would a glo bug, and it spreads out, it helps the hackle hold it in place, and it makes a really good indicator. So putting an indicator on top of a fly is a good use for that stuff. You can wind it as a body. There are all sorts of ways [00:13:00.080] you can use that when you want to just add a little color to a fly without resorting to other materials. So I would go ahead and use it, maybe little tags on nymphs for a cider, or not a cider but for a hot spot on a nymph, just try a little short tag or short tail using that stuff. So there are ways to use it, and I'm sure, if you experiment, you'll find some cool uses for that McFly foam. [00:13:30.299] The next one is from Brian.
"Last fall I found some blooming olive nymphs crawling on rocks and placed them into a small test tube-like thing for observation at the fly tying vise later that night. Something really struck me about these nymphs, and I haven't heard anyone mention it. The profile of the bugs was very short from top to bottom and far more wide and flat than I ever realized. With there being so much emphasis on profile as it relates to matching the hatch, have we fly-tiers [00:14:00.240] missed something here? The mayfly nymph fly patterns that I'm familiar with don't seem to reflect the natural bug's profile. Your thoughts?"
Well, Brian, yeah, this has come up throughout the history of nymph fly tying, whether to tie your nymphs flat or not. And, yeah, it does make sense to tie your nymphs flat if the fish were swimming around and looking at the nymphs from different angles. [00:14:30.100] But the fish only generally see the nymphs from one profile. And you know, yeah, flat might matter. You can make flatter nymphs by placing some non-toxic wire strips on the side of the shank and lashing them down and gluing them so that you get a flat shape. But a real much easier way to tie a flat nymph is to use [00:15:00.120] a fuzzy dubbing material and then brush it out so that it sticks out from the sides.
If you look at a Hare's Ear nymph once it gets wet in the water, you'll see that that fly looks very flat. So it imitates both the gills and the flat shape of the mayfly. So probably the best way to do it is to fuzz that dubbing out of the sides of the fly. But I'm not really sure it matters because we tie a lot of our flies [00:15:30.059] in the round, and fish seem to eat them just fine. So, yeah, profiles should matter, but again, the fish only see it from one angle. They don't swim around and look at it from all sides, so they really can't tell if it's flat. So anyway, tie them flat if you want or tie them round, they're all going to work.
So let's take a little break from the Fly Box for a minute, and I want to tell you about an Orvis-endorsed outfitter in Argentina. It's [00:16:00.259] a new one. It's a Patagonia Outfitters, and it's actually not new. New to Orvis, but not new at all. This operation is run by Jorge Trucco, who is an old friend. I think I've known Jorge, God, more than 40 years. And he is one of the real pioneers and experts in Argentina fly fishing. He's been doing it a long, long, long, long time. And it's an interesting operation because they [00:16:30.120] customize a trip for you based on what you want to do and where you want to fish. So they represent a number of great lodges in the San Martin area. And within their area, you have famous Argentine rivers like the Aluminé, the Collón Curá, Chimehuin, Malleo, Limay, and Traful Rivers. Those are very, very famous trout streams in Argentina, very productive. And they also [00:17:00.100] fish other streams and creeks in the area, but those are the ones you might have heard of. So if you want to look for kind of a customized trip to Argentina and visit more than one lodge, I would recommend that you investigate Patagonia Outfitters. Here's one from Scott from Maryland.
"I have two questions for you today on two different topics. First question is on streamers. How do you like to present your streamers on trout streams? [00:17:30.319] I know there are different stripping rhythms for stripping and you have to play around it. Do you prefer to cast upstream, downstream, at a 45 and let them swing, cast to a bank, or find a seam? And how do you account for different currents? The other question is about rockfish. We have rockfish in the bay and on the shore. When on foot, what type of structures do you like to look for that might hold striped bass if you were on foot and don't have a boat? I have no problem exploring, but if it's in a marshy area, [00:18:00.200] how do you approach it so you don't trot in a path around the marsh and erode the shoreline? Thanks for taking the time to read all the questions."
Well, Scott, first of all, on streamers, I personally generally like to fish my streamers upstream and strip them back to me. I think that that's more natural because when baitfish or crayfish get dislodged, they don't swim upstream. They can't because the current is usually too fast, [00:18:30.140] unless it's in really slow water. So I like to do that. But you know, it doesn't always work. Sometimes you want to cast straight across. Sometimes you want to cast at 45. And as you said, you really have to experiment. But when in doubt, I like to fish my streamers upstream and strip them back to me with slight pauses in between.
Now, I think the one time you want to kind of cast across is when you have lots and lots of conflicting currents, [00:19:00.180] and you really can't figure out how to manipulate your streamer, and it's going through all different currents on its way back to you. So in that case, yeah, maybe upstream and across, or straight across, or 45 down, and just strip it through all those different currents and hope that a fish sees it. But again, there's no solid rules for this. Again, you're going to have to just try different angles and retrieve speeds and see what happens.
Regarding rockfish, [00:19:30.180] you know, the rockfish that are in close to shore are going to be looking to eat. So you want to find a place that is going to trap baitfish, shrimp, crabs, and things like that, so, you know, rocky outcrops, estuaries that flow into a marsh, creeks, things like that, even little points, even just little points in the marsh, but something that has some structure that's [00:20:00.359] going to hold the kind of prey that striped bass are going to eat. But you know, it varies from place to place. So you might want to just talk to some local anglers or a fly shop or a bait shop and see what kind of structure they look for. Here's one from Zach.
"Just wanted to hear your opinion on emerger colors. It seems like so many commercial emerger patterns are based on the color of the dun, but wouldn't it make more sense for them to be the color of the nymph? [00:20:30.039] Sulphur emergers, for example, are often tied in light cream and yellow colors, but the nymphs are much darker brown olive. Thoughts?"
Well, Zach, you know, fish see emergers in different stages. So they see emergers that are still mostly in the shuck with maybe a little bit of the dun peeking through at the front. And then they might see emergers where the dun is completely emerged from the shuck and the shuck is just hanging off the back. [00:21:00.000] So they see them in all different colors and shades, at least, you know, in the case of a sulphur or pale morning dun, they see some that are kind of brownish olive and they see some that are yellow, depending on what stage the emerger is in. And you'll see a lot of emerger patterns where the back half of the fly, including the shuck, is kind of darker and then the front half is lighter. There's some really good patterns. [00:21:30.180] That way, you're covering both bases. But I think either way is going to work.
I think it's more the profile and the fact that you are at least in the ballpark on one color or the other. But you know, I wouldn't agonize about it too much because fish are not...they're eating emergers, and they might be selective to emergers, but they're not going to be specifically selective to, you know, one phase over another, whether it's [00:22:00.089] a fish or a bug that's still in the nymph case or halfway out or three-quarters of the way out. I don't think they're going to get that picky. So I think that, you know, just as long as you're in the ballpark, you're going to be good. Here's an email from Adam from the Pacific Northwest.
"I bought and used a full-price range of conventional spinning and casting fishing rods for salmon, steelhead, trout, bass, catfish, deep water species, marlin, tuna, halibut, etc., over the last 30 years. [00:22:30.660] I've also bought and used a full-price range of fly rods for salmon, steelhead, trout, etc. I definitely can objectively discern a difference in performance, fit, and finish between the lower-cost sporting goods store brands and prices and the specialty fishing store or direct from the manufacturer high-end rods. In general, the higher the cost of the rod, the better the performance, fit, and finish, as well as resale value.
In comparing the performance, weight, casting accuracy, tactile translation, and durability [00:23:00.579] of a high-cost conventional rod compared to that of a high-cost fly rod for the same species and locations, I try to tell the difference between the rods' performance between the two disciplines. For the life of me, I have never been able to say that steelhead casting rod is less sensitive or less accurate or heavier or less durable than a comparable fly rod, except for being half the cost. Without custom build entering the conversation, the most I can pay for a high-end [00:23:30.119] steelhead casting or spinning rod is about $650. This is a rod that lets me tell the difference between a hook touching a sandy bottom, gravelly bottom, or rocky bottom of river, or even wood. It has a backbone to handle a powerful fish and the weight that allows me to fish all day without getting excessively tired. However, a fly rod can be twice as much or even more in cost. The overall performance of a fly rod is the same as a comparable quality convention rod. [00:24:00.339] Really well-made fly rod gives me the same level of feedback on all the other qualities as the high-end conventional rod.
Now, I'm not complaining, as nobody forced me to buy anything related to fishing and I have willingly parted ways with my money many times for rods that I thought were maybe too expensive for the simple reason that I wanted it so I could go do something I really enjoy with great care. I just don't get the disparity in cost and would not be able to give a believable answer if someone asked me the question. [00:24:30.119] What gives? Market share? Are fly rods a niche product and the cost is spread out over a smaller market? I can't see it being R&D technologies, component costs, or materials and build process. I watch videos on how fly rod companies do their material selections, prototype testing, layups, assembly by hand in the U.S.A. I have watched videos of conventional rod companies doing nearly the exact same process in the U.S.A. Then I see the price tags on their websites and I'm left at a loss. [00:25:00.799]
I know this is part of a conversation you have with listeners and often hear you wisely leading them to reasonably priced gear, given their fishing target. What is the secret sauce that fly rod manufacturers put inside their rods that double their cost to the users?"
Well, Adam, you know, I'm not exactly sure how a conventional rod is made, but I don't believe that the tolerances are as close [00:25:30.790] and the scrap rate is as high as it is in fly rods because I believe that the casting characteristics of a fly rod are much more precise and there really needs to be a lot more measurement and fitting in the process. I suspect that some of those lower-priced conventional rods that you see are not made in the U.S.A., which may be part of the issue. [00:26:00.000] You know, when you're talking about a rod that's 100% made in the U.S.A., I mean, those people might be assembling the rods in the U.S.A., but are they actually making the blanks in the U.S.A.? I don't know. I don't know enough about the conventional rod industry, but I suspect they may be buying blanks from overseas.
And one of the factors also might be, yes, that fly fishing is a niche business, [00:26:30.000] and they're not mass produced like a conventional rod is made. So there's definitely going to be an economy of scale there when you take your overhead and you amortize it over the various units that you make. Fly fishing is a lot smaller business, and so there's probably an economy of scale. And also, there's just a lot of hand work involved in making a fly rod, and I'm not sure there's the same amount of hand work [00:27:00.059] involved in a conventional rod. We live in a capitalist society. There's a lot of competition in fly rods. And if somebody could make a domestic fly rod 100% made in the U.S.A. for $200 where every component was made in the U.S.A., like a lot of the Orvis rods are made, then they would do it because they'd have a huge competitive advantage, and they'd be able to build a lot more units. [00:27:30.859]
But I don't think it's going to happen. We've tried it at Orvis. We've tried to make our $200 to $300 rods in the U.S.A., and we just can't make it work. And I can tell you, for sure, that there's no collusion between manufacturers to raise the price of the rod. The price of the fly rods is what it costs to make them plus some markup so that people can pay their mortgages and send their kids to school [00:28:00.000] and buy food. So it's like a lot of products that are made in the U.S.A. that you're going to pay more for them. So you asked a lot of good questions. I don't think I have the answer to all of them, but knowing what goes into an Orvis fly rod anyway can tell you that the price is fair and it's as low as we could possibly make it and still pay to keep [00:28:30.400] Orvis in business. Here's a question from Brian.
"As I have been tying flies this winter for the upcoming year, I have been tying most patterns in a range of sizes. However, it has occurred to me that each step in sizing is not a huge difference. Is it actually worthwhile to have a pattern in adjacent sizes, that is, size 12, 14, and 16, or is it more efficient to skip sizes, like tying sizes 12 and 16, skipping size 14? Thanks." [00:29:00.859]
Brian, that's a good question. And I do it both ways. For a hatch where the fish are really picky, like a pale morning dun or a blue-winged olive or a Hendrickson or a March Brown, I will tie the fly in all the sizes because, boy, that little bit of difference can sometimes make a difference in whether the fish takes your fly or not. In other areas, [00:29:30.000] particularly in nymphs where I don't think size is critical, yeah, I often skip a size and go, like, 14, 18, 22, or 12, 16, and 20. But yeah, it depends on how picky the fish are going to be. You can also sometimes tie a size 12 a little bit undersized [00:30:00.560] and then tie a few more that are a little bit bigger so that you have kind of two different profiles in the same hook size. But you know, I like to be on the safe side, and if it's a really important hatch, again, I'll tie them in all the sizes I think I'm going to need and hope there's a difference between them. And finally, here's a heartfelt statement from Paul in Woodstock, New York that he wanted to share with me [00:30:30.360] and I wanted to read on the air.
"Hi, Tom. I want to thank both you and Orvis for all of us who love fly fishing. I did want to take a moment for all of us, though, that have been fortunate enough to grow up with great mentors who have taken the time to pass along this wonderful craft. One such mentor of mine was my uncle Blake. He left us this past fall. Whether he was presenting at local TU meetings or helping someone with their casting, he was always a true gentleman. I can still feel [00:31:00.039] his hand gripping mine as he taught me to cast decades ago. Blake was fortunate enough to travel and fly fish with his wife Helen by his side. Though they were particularly fond of Labrador, Blake had many notable stories and mentions in the once-famous "Atlantic Salmon Journal." Blake was an avid collector of both fly reels and rods that will be coveted by his daughters and sons-in-law who will all continue to fish with his passion and heart. My hope is that Blake and all the other wonderful mentors are sitting [00:31:30.200] by a river, watching trout rise, and swatting blackflies. We will all stand on your shoulders, and hopefully, we can pay it forward."
Well, Paul, I'm very sorry for your loss, but that's a beautiful tribute, and I hope that everyone who's had a mentor like that will think of them in the same way.
All right. Before we go talk to Tayloe, one final announcement. [00:32:00.359] This is our Endorsed Guide of the Week, and Captain Drew Rodriguez was on my podcast. If you want to hear more about him, it was the podcast of July 14th, 2024. And Captain Drew specializes in peacock and largemouth bass in South Florida, so freshwater fishing in South Florida as opposed to saltwater fishing. And if you want to catch a lot of fish and a lot of exotic fish [00:32:30.299] and have a lot of exciting times, Drew's the guy to go to, particularly if you're in the Miami area or in South Florida for a vacation and just want to go fishing for a day. Since I did that podcast, I had a number of people email me or come up to me in person saying that they heard about Drew on the podcast, and they went and fished with him and had an amazing time. So if you're interested in that kind of fishing, exotic fish, [00:33:00.460] in South Florida, then look up Captain Drew Rodriguez.
All right, let's go talk to Tayloe about first aid for fly fishing. Well, my guest today is Mike Tayloe, although you don't want to call him Mike. He says that only his mother calls him Mike. So I'm going to call him Tayloe. [00:33:30.180] And please don't think it's a sign of disrespect by referring to him by his last name because that's what everybody calls him. So, Tayloe, welcome to the podcast.
Tayloe: Hey, Tom. Thanks for having me, man.
Tom: We're going to talk about kind of wilderness medicine and fly fishing, first aid when you're out there and you don't have quick access to 911 or a rescue squad [00:34:00.019] or whatever, because I get that question often, and I haven't been able to answer. I get that question, you know. Is there anything special we should do for being prepared for emergencies on a trout stream or on the saltwater flats or anything in between? And, Mike, you're the expert. You're an EMT. You're a fishing guide. You teach wilderness medicine. You've taught it for how many years?
Tayloe: [00:34:30.579] Well, for this is 30.
Tom: Thirty years. And you teach it to lodges and guides and people. You've spoken at our Guide Rendezvous, and I'm sure you've been to a lot of Orvis-endorsed operations and taught first aid. So, you know, I think you're the guy who can answer all these questions.
Tayloe: I don't know about that, but I'm going to give it my best.
Tom: Okay. All right. So let's [00:35:00.079] first of all talk about the type of emergencies you might have and the situations you might find yourself in.
Tayloe: Sure. Listen, Tom, I'm going to be honest with you. The emergencies or situations you find yourself in are no different on the rivers or the flats that you would find yourself in in everyday life. Obviously, we are out there, you know, away from emergency [00:35:30.619] services and whatnot, but the actual things that happen are the same. You're going to twist an ankle. You're going to get a laceration. You're going to poke something into your eye. It's not necessarily where we are. It's just the fact that we can't just push a button or hop in the car and be at the clinic in 10 minutes.
Tom: Right, yeah.
Tayloe: Sort that's sort of the deal there.
Tom: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that makes sense. It makes total sense.
Tayloe: Yeah.
Tom: Okay. [00:36:00.059] So, what's the first thing someone should do to prepare themselves? You know, let's say you're going on a backpacking trip for a couple of days and you're going to be fishing. What's the first thing they should do to prepare for the trip?
Tayloe: So, look, I think the most important thing, which I think is more important than, actually, say, having a first aid kit, is to get some first aid training. [00:36:30.360] Just be prepared. Know what to do. It could be a trip saver, and, without sounding too corny, it kind of could be a lifesaver. But, yeah, I would look into courses and just take some time to get a little bit of training to know what to do and to just prepare. So you can sort of control the situation instead of having to dig deep into an article you read [00:37:00.920] a year ago about first aid.
Tom: And you were telling me...you've told me before that you recommend that people don't do an online course but do it in person. I know here in Vermont, local rescue squads offer these often. Where else can people find these kinds of courses?
Tayloe: So I'll tell you. I'm going to sort of break down the two general categories of first aid courses, [00:37:30.300] and then it'll probably make more sense.
Tom: Okay.
Tayloe: You know what I'm talking about. So, generally, we can break down first aid courses into standard first aid and wilderness first aid. So standard first aid, which...these classes are great. I mean, medicine is medicine until it's not. This is the American Heart, American Red Cross, those kind of classes, four to six hours, you know, you take them at the rescue squad, [00:38:00.900] the library, the school gym, wherever. Again, they're great courses. You know, they teach you how to assess a patient, basically, right, how to stop a bleed, how to deal with maybe some breathing problems, that kind of stuff. But here's the thing. They are specifically designed for quick emergency service showing up. So you have an emergency, 911 [00:38:30.260] is called or whatever the number is where you are, you sort of stabilize the situation, and then, boom, they're there within a reasonable time, 8, 10 minutes, right?
Tom: Yeah. I think, in fact, I've taken some of those courses, and I think they tell you the first thing to do is call 911, right?
Tayloe: That's right.
Tom: That's the first thing. You're out, you know, you're five miles up a trout stream, you're not going to call 911 with no cell service.
Tayloe: That's right. Or listen, even if you do [00:39:00.300] have cell service and you can get 911, if you think about it, you're 4 miles, 25, 30 minutes up the river. It took you 20 minutes to drive there plus getting to the river. I mean, man, we're in the 45 minutes before they even get to the parking lot, if you know what I mean.
Tom: Yeah, right. Yeah, absolutely.
Tayloe: So there's a lot that can go down in, let's just say, 10 to 15 [00:39:30.099] minutes, if not shorter, in an emergency.
Tom: Yeah. Yep.
Tayloe: Now, with that being said, these are great courses, right? I mean, stopping bleeding and, you know, dealing with a difficult airway or something happening with breathing, it doesn't change when you're five miles up the river. I mean, it still works. So the difference in wilderness first aid courses is they take that into consideration, [00:40:00.880] that the emergency service is not going to be there in 8 to 10 minutes. So now, what do you do? And that could be 30 minutes. It could be 24 hours or 4 days. What's the next step? What do these other courses or standard courses just don't teach? So that's one difference, is the time element.
Obviously, the next for wilderness is the environment that you're in, right? [00:40:30.039] Standard courses, you know, don't consider that you're on a river, that you're on a flat, that you're in a boat. What do you do to deal with the environment, whether it's weather, lack of equipment, that kind of stuff?
Tom: Yeah.
Tayloe: And then, you know, not lastly, but one other thing is they go a little bit deeper, right? So they talk more about your environmental emergencies, so hypothermia, hyperthermia, [00:41:00.000] altitude if you're, you know, fishing high up on lakes. They get into aquatic and marine a little bit more, you know, if you're on the flats. So it's sort of an all-encompassed time environment, a little more topics. It's just more appropriate for I think what we do as anglers, I believe, than where we are.
Tom: Okay. Is it easy to find this kind of course? Is there a place people can go to find out [00:41:30.159] where the closest one is?
Tayloe: Yeah, totally. And again, I hate to say it, but Google, I mean, if you can't take one from us at Finns West. There's the shameless plug. But if you just Google wilderness first aid, you know, there are some amazing companies and organizations out there that do these courses all over the United States and all over the world as well.
Tom: We can do a shameless plug. [00:42:00.590] Tell people the name of your company how they can get a hold of you.
Tayloe: Well, here's the thing, because I want to be clear. Unfortunately, we do not do open courses. So in other words, if you go to Finns West and look for a 1-day, a 2-day, a 3-day wilderness course, you know, June 2nd through the 5th, we don't do that. We are contracted by organizations, lodges, outfitters [00:42:30.199] to come do a course. And listen, I hate that. There is interest, but I won't tell you, Tom. It's a pain in the ass to try to juggle these open courses with trying to work our schedule when we're doing lodges and outfitters and people don't show up or something happens. So we just decided to focus on the angling industry for contract courses.
Tom: Okay. Okay, fair enough.
Tayloe: Sorry.
Tom: No, that's fair enough. There may be some lodge owners listening who... [00:43:00.000]
Tayloe: Or maybe some fly shop or some organizations will say, "Well, shoot, we can get, you know, 8, 10 people together," and they just call us up, and then we'll shoot right there.
Tom: Yeah, maybe Trout Unlimited, a big Trout Unlimited chapter, or something could do that, right?
Tayloe: Yeah, for sure. Thanks for throwing the plug out. But yeah, I think one way for people to find these is to, you know, just go online and search for wilderness first aid courses. Now, look, [00:43:30.480] I'll be remiss without mentioning this, you know, for your listeners, without getting too deep, wilderness first aid is not regulated like American Heart and American first aid. So unfortunately, anybody that, you know, got a Boy Scout first aid merit badge and decides to start a company because they're a hiker can start one of these companies, which is kind of a bummer. [00:44:00.239]
There is a standard out there, the legit places, that we follow, right? I mean, a group got together and said, "Look, let's try to get something that's standardized with hours and topics." But you're not going to find that online. So unfortunately, once people tap into this, just kind of, I hate to say this too, look at reviews. I'm more than happy, shoot us an email, and I will let you know what I know [00:44:30.059] about the course. But you know, just like anything, just like, you know, some fishing rod companies, there are some that aren't as good for first aid out there as well.
Tom: Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough.
Tayloe: So, yeah.
Tom: And so...
Tayloe: Go ahead.
Tom: Well, I just hope people aren't disappointed, but you're not going to tell us how to treat first aid here on this podcast, right? It wouldn't be ethical, and probably [00:45:00.079] your lawyer would not be happy with that. Is that true?
Tayloe: That's right. He says don't. But then, again, if we're being honest, to actually talk about how to stop bleeding and how to deal with hypothermia, you can't do it over the phone, like you said about going online and taking your first initial first aid course online with no hands-on. It just doesn't work. It doesn't give you the touch, [00:45:30.539] feel, smell, mental snapshot of actually doing it and practicing it to be effective.
Tom: Okay.
Tayloe: But we will make some good points, I promise.
Tom: Okay, yeah. So first aid kit, you know, you've taken the course, but you need to be prepared with some stuff, right? And I am probably your biggest nightmare because, you know, I sometimes go off-road [00:46:00.079] and hike up a big rocky mountain stream, few miles. And, Mike, I don't even have a Band-Aid in my sling bag, which I know you've already shamed me about that previously. But, you know, how does someone go about putting together a first aid kit?
Tayloe: All right. So again, I don't want to harp on this, but I'm going to bring it back up.
Tom: Okay. [00:46:30.360]
Tayloe: If you take a class or a course, and I guess I should say too, anything is better than nothing, meaning standard versus wilderness, right? I mean, just do something. If it's not in the cards to do a wilderness course or you can't find one in the area, just take something. Now, with that being said...
Tom: Now, I do take duct tape. I do take a roll of duct tape, a little thing of duct tape with me.
Tayloe: Right on. And that'll work, [00:47:01.599] you know, fixing your fly rod. So here's the thing, once you take a course or go do a refresher, now that you have that information, it's going to be so much easier to buy or build and prepare for your kit because you know the emergencies and what to do. Now, you kind of know what you need to get. So that's a pretty cool thing that happens when you take a course. [00:47:30.039] So, look, I'd like to bring up a few considerations that have absolutely nothing to do with what's in your kit, and we'll talk about that, for sure.
Tom: Sure, yeah.
Tayloe: So, look, I want people to understand that, A, you get what you pay for. So if you roll into a big box store and buy a $12 first aid kit, well, you're going to get a $12 first aid kit, right? It's like anything. Don't skip [00:48:00.320] on dropping a little bit of cash on a first aid kit because, I mean, this thing could be used for some serious stuff.
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Tayloe: The next thing is you're not going to be able to go into any store. Matter of fact, even the kits that we've designed, it's not 100% ready to go off the shelf. With your knowledge and experience and taking a course, you're going to have [00:48:30.019] to dig around in there and look at what's there. You're going to have to add stuff that you like or you're comfortable with or may match where you're going. You're sort of going to have to dial it in. Because people just go buy a kit, throw it in their bag or their truck or their boat, and think they're good to go. And when it's time to use it, they open it up, and boy, there's probably a big surprise coming, right?
And then along that thing is that there's not [00:49:00.199] one perfect kit for all of our endeavors. What I mean by that is this. The kit that you have, the little small compact kit that goes into your sling pack that you take out for a day on the river, is probably not going to be appropriate for the week in Alaska, the two weeks in the Seychelles. And the reason is it's not necessarily the stuff that's in it. [00:49:30.320] It's the amount of stuff. You're just out longer. You may use more of the things that are in there. And then you may add a few things for a longer duration trip.
Tom: All right.
Tayloe: So I'm not saying you need to have 13 first aid kits for all the things you do, but you should at least consider one for your quick short hits and then your travel kit. That doesn't necessarily have [00:50:00.300] to be bigger. It just needs to be dialed for where you're going.
Tom: Okay. Sounds like a reasonable plan.
Tayloe: Right. Again, along the lines of not necessarily what's in the kit that folks should consider is the bag, box, container that your stuff is in. This thing needs to be bomber, because if you think about it, this kit goes everywhere you go. [00:50:30.159] It's under the seat of your truck. It's in a flat boat. It's in the seat of a drift boat. It's in your backpack. It's in your luggage. I mean, it goes everywhere. So it needs to be bomber, the zippers, the seams, everything, so this thing doesn't blow up. Because if it does blow up, you rip a seam, you blow a zipper, you're going to wrap duct tape around it and stick it to a Ziploc bag. And then when something goes down, stress level is up, [00:51:00.119] you've got to get it out. This thing has now got eight layers of duct tape. It's wet because you tried to put it in a Ziploc. This thing just needs to be as bomber as your other equipment.
Tom: Okay.
Tayloe: And then the next thing is organization. Again, stress level is up during an emergency. You have to open this kit and get to some critical items. If they're buried in the bottom of a dry bag, if they're stuck behind [00:51:30.159] 50 Band-Aids and you're, say, getting a tourniquet to stop bleeding on your body, the last thing you need to be doing is digging around. You need to be able to open it, identify where stuff is, and then, man, it brings the stress level down tenfold. So it really needs to be organized.
Tom: Okay.
Tayloe: So, yeah, those are sort of the considerations before you even think about the stuff that goes inside.
Tom: Okay. [00:52:00.000] So let's talk about, you know, where to get this stuff, what you might need in this first aid kit. Where can you buy a decent first aid kit, or what do you need if you're going to make one yourself?
Tayloe: Gotcha. So a couple of things, either purchasing one or building one. [00:52:30.000] Ten years ago, I would say that building one would probably be better because there weren't that many appropriate, loaded, ready-to-go, for the most part, kits out there. Now, there are some great companies making some good kits. Some you actually get a good container and you get good stuff that's on the inside. I would say, if folks are ready, and again, I do have some ties [00:53:00.199] to some of these places, I'll throw that out, for sure, but there's a reason we have ties with these places.
Tom: Sure, yeah.
Tayloe: So one is Rescue Essentials. So Google those guys up, rescue-essentials.com. I don't know their website. They're a great place for both. You can get a pre-made kit. You can sort of choose the different varieties of what you're going to use it for. But the other thing about Rescue Essentials is you can actually [00:53:30.340] just get the stuff that goes in them, like hard to find good stuff that are packed down. They're vacuum-packed so they'll fit into a smaller kit. They've just been vetted, I guess. That's what they do. So that's a good place.
If you're going to go off-the-shelf, again, you're going to have to go in there and tweak it a little bit. My Medic is a great company. They have good mods. [00:54:00.000] And what I mean by mods is, like, they have just a day-to-day boo-boo mod that's in a little sealable pouch, you know, a severe bleeding mod. And I like the way those are set up because, you know, after using them for a bit, instead of trying to find these little individual items to replace, you can actually replace it with just that mod. So they're pretty good. [00:54:30.000]
Conterra. We designed a few kits for Conterra. Good company. They're actually a mountain rescue ski patrol company that I've worked with for quite a long time. They have a Guide One and a Guide Two out there, if they're in stock, not sure. So, yeah, there's a couple of places to poke around and look.
Tom: Okay. How do you spell Conterra, Mike, or Tayloe? Sorry. [00:55:00.000]
Tayloe: It's all good, mom. It is C-O-N-T-E-R-R-A.
Tom: Okay. Okay.
Tayloe: Conterra. Yeah, Rick's been around for about 40 years.
Tom: Okay. All right.
Tayloe: So Adventure Medical, folks are familiar with them. They are everywhere from specialty outdoor stores to big box stores. They're not owned by the same folks anymore. Nothing is. But Adventure Medical does a good job of, [00:55:30.119] you know, organizing, having, you know, somewhat the appropriate stuff. So that's another pretty known brand out there.
Tom: Okay. Good.
Tayloe: That's about as far as I'm going to go on that.
Tom: All right. So let's talk about, you know, what should someone have? You know, what are the various modules that someone should have in their first aid kit?
Tayloe: All right. Cool. So, look, and when we say modules, [00:56:00.359] sort of you can think about them as the injuries and the situations you'll be treating. It's easier to wrap your head around that and to think about, you know, like, okay, what do I need for bleeding? What do I need for wound care? So I'm just going to give a few essentials that you've got to have in a first aid kit.
Tom: Okay. Good.
Tayloe: First module is protecting you, so PPE or your [00:56:30.099] personal protection stuff, and that's pretty straightforward. You need good several pair of gloves, so some good medical gloves. And those things are twofold. One is, obviously, you're protecting yourself, you know, from any icky wet stuff while you're treating somebody. But I'm going to tell you what a pair of gloves does, and again, we see it time and time again. When you do have a pair of medical gloves on [00:57:00.260] and you go in to work somebody, it actually gives you, I think, more confidence. You're not worried about icky stuff. You're just getting in there and getting it done. Several pairs as well, right, for more people, and you don't have to keep putting them in there.
Tom: Okay.
Tayloe: All right, this is the big one. This is the life threats mod, and this is severe bleeding and breathing issues. [00:57:30.000] So on the bleeding side, again, I'm not going to get into a class, but the majority of severe bleeds can be stopped with well-aimed direct pressure. No special equipment, you need to find it and apply well-aimed direct pressure. Again, take a course. You'll learn that. So what you need to have in there is some four-by-four gauze, thin gauze pads, [00:58:00.219] to be able to get in there and apply pressure. Pretty straightforward. And listen, the other thing that people need to keep in mind is, except for a few items, the items in your first aid kit need to do more than one thing.
Tom: Sure, yeah.
Tayloe: It keeps the size down. It keeps things simple. These little four-by-four or gauze pads can be used for everything, right? Stopping, you know, severe bleeding to [00:58:30.500] just taking care of a little wound. So just keep that in mind as we go through this stuff.
Tom: Okay.
Tayloe: The next thing is a hemostatic agent, i.e., blood stopper. This is a product that helps promote bleeding to stop. You can get it. It's in little packets. It's impregnated into little gauze bandages. [00:59:00.000] You can get it at CVS Pharmacy these days.
Tom: Okay. What do they call it?
Tayloe: It's called blood stopper.
Tom: Oh, okay.
Tayloe: Yeah. I mean, the scientific name is a hemostatic agent. It helps clotting. But blood stopper is what's on the front of all the packages. And, you know, you don't have to have a prescription. You can get them in different sizes. But it helps with the well-aimed direct pressure or, [00:59:30.219] you know, a moderate to severe bleed, it helps get the bleeding stopped.
Tom: Okay.
Tayloe: And then without a shadow of a doubt, last but not least, everybody on planet Earth should carry a tourniquet.
Tom: Okay.
Tayloe: And I'm speaking of...I mean, it's 2024, right? The days of using a belt or a rope, they're kind of over. These things are cheap. They are compact. They're designed [01:00:00.559] to stop life-threatening bleeding, and tourniquet of various styles, something should be in your kit to stop severe bleeding.
Tom: All right.
Tayloe: So that's sort of the bleeding side of things.
Tom: Okay.
Tayloe: So, again, we're looking at breathing. We got to fix that as best as we can with our training, because you kind of have to breathe to walk around on the planet these days. [01:00:30.119] One thing is a face shield, and I think, generically, they're called CPR face shields. It's just sort of a plastic barrier that goes between your mouth and somebody else's mouth. If you're doing CPR, somebody, let's say, with asthma, difficulty breathing, you have to breathe for them. And they're little. They're the size of a condom package, which I've decided to say.
Tom: That's Okay. You can say that.
Tayloe: Absolutely. [01:01:00.559] They're small. They're compact. Again, it gives you the confidence to get in and get what's done versus, "Well, I'm not going to get in there and put my mouth on their mouth." But that thing will give you the confidence and protect you to actually do that.
Tom: Okay.
Tayloe: The next thing is a chest seal. And what this device is, again, very compact, very inexpensive, [01:01:30.219] it is if you have a hole in your chest and air is leaking in and out, which, obviously, you know, is not good for breathing. It covers the hole. And some have a vent to let air escape but not get back in. It's a good thing. And I think we talked at some point that these injuries are very common in the angling world. [01:02:00.179] And if you think about it, it kind of makes sense. So you're wading on a stream, you trip up and fall into the bank, and you know, a stick sticks into your chest on the flat skiff, and you know, run up on a little piece of coral while you're pulling and you fall out, and there's a mangrove sprig sticking out, right? Pretty common when we look at and talk to a bunch of lodges and outfitters about some of the injuries. And [01:02:30.559] believe it or not, that's one of the more common ones.
Tom: I would never have thought of that. And I'm glad you brought it up.
Tayloe: Yeah. And it's easy. Quick, easy. They're taught in both standard and wilderness class, how to use these things, so a good thing to have.
Tom: Okay. Good.
Tayloe: Cool. All right. We're going to move out of the sort of life threats mods that we talked about and just sort of look at basic wound care. [01:03:00.219]
Tom: Okay.
Tayloe: So here's the thing with wound care. We want to sort of inhibit infection and promote healing. Because a simple wound, right, can be a trip-ender. I mean, I could go on and on about the stories we've heard where somebody, you know, they're wading the flats barefooted, they'd step on a piece of coral or a shell, get a little cut, don't think anything about it, just sort of, you know, [01:03:30.360] rinse it off. And two days later, that's it. It's infected. Trip is over. Can't bear weight. So the idea is to get after even simple wounds quick. And the way to do that is you need to irrigate this thing. And irrigation, the best way is with high-pressure irrigation, and all that is is a syringe, right, is sort of a wound irrigation syringe. Got a little teeny tip that [01:04:00.000] forces water out. And you can really get in there and clean a wound. So an irrigation syringe and wound care is imperative.
Tom: Okay.
Tayloe: And listen, the next things are pretty straightforward that everybody's going to be like, "Well, duh, Tayloe, I'm glad you're paramedic." It's just your bandages and your wraps. So you know, once you clean them out, you need to wrap them, Band-Aid, you know, some gauze, wrap, bandages [01:04:30.579] just to sort it. That's pretty straightforward, right? A little bit of antibiotic ointment to dab on there to help things out is good. Generic, you know, triple antibiotic ointment is just a little too, throw that in there, for sure.
Tom: So the kind you get in the drugstore, triple antibiotic ointment.
Tayloe: That's it. Generic, doesn't matter. It's all made with the same stuff.
Tom: Now, I got a dumb question for you, because, [01:05:00.000] actually, when I go to tropical locations, like bonefishing or something, I do take a tube of antibiotics ointment with me. I think it's about, like, three or four years old. Do you think I should get a new one, or is it still good?
Tayloe: I guess, you know, without diving deep in there, the sort of the antibiotic ointments and, you know, most of our generic over-the-counter meds are pretty good a couple, [01:05:30.380] three years. Don't quote me on that. Again, my attorney is going to have a stroke. But it should be pretty good. But, Tom, here's what I'm going to say. The shit is $2.
Tom: I know. I know. I replace my tippet every year. I should probably replace my antibiotic ointment, right?
Tayloe: That's right. Look, just splurge. The next time you're going in there to pick up a prescription, just grab a $2 tube.
Tom: Okay. [01:06:00.059]
Tayloe: Good question, though.
Tom: Oh, boy.
Tayloe: Oh, Lord. Let's see, wound care, we're good there. I'll tell you, another thing that's great to have, not super necessary, but you'll be super happy if you do have it, is some burn gel. So this is a little packet that soothes the burning. It's got a little antiseptic in it. [01:06:30.460] It keeps the wound moist. So if you've got a minor burn, and of course, we're talking about minor stuff here, it's just good stuff. And again, any of these places that I spoke about has this stuff. And, you know, whether it's a campfire, you know, we do a lot of crazy stuff when we're out there, a little thing, a burn gel, is good stuff. Burns hurt.
Tom: Yeah, they do.
Tayloe: Yeah. So that kind of wraps up the wound care [01:07:00.059] thing a little bit. One other quick thing on that is wound closure strips. You know what I'm talking about to the person that doesn't carry a first aid kit? Does that ring a bell at all?
Tom: It does for my courses, yeah.
Tayloe: There you go. So I think Steri-Strips, I think, is the generic name for these things. They're great as well. We're not going to do sutures in the field. I mean, matter of fact, me as a 30-year critical care paramedic, [01:07:30.000] we won't even do sutures in the field unless absolutely necessary. So these things close up a wound that, you know, is not healing quick enough, and it's open, and it just pulls the sides together. And there's some great ones out there now, great adhesive, great stuff. I sort of forgot about that.
Tom: Okay. Good.
Tayloe: All right. Cool. So now, we're going to talk about sort of our musculoskeletal. That's our strains, sprains, and God forbid, [01:08:00.159] a broken something.
Tom: Right. Okay.
Tayloe: A good thing on your, I don't know, like, one day just out on the river for a few hours, I don't know. I mean, I do because they are compact and they do fit in your pack, but there is these really soft-sided splints that you could bend to make hard. They're called SAM splints, and they're just great things to have. [01:08:30.239] They may not fit in your small kit, but they will fit sort of in the back of your sling pack.
Tom: Okay. SAM splints, S-A-M?
Tayloe: S-A-M, SAM splint. Great device. Now, with that being said, you can improvise. And I think, you know, we're all good at that in this arena, that, you know, you can use something to stabilize, but that's sort of your on-the-medical-side thing to have. So with that, [01:09:00.900] you got to be able to secure a splint somehow. So now, we're back into, you know, your gauze, wraps that you're going to have for wound care. So that's sort of how to stabilize a strain, sprain, or fracture. And again, your ACE bandages are a good thing to carry. And then that wrap. So that wrap, which generically is called Coban, is the stuff that you see wrapped around, [01:09:30.300] like, horse's ankles. They stick to themselves. They come in a bunch of cool colors. That stuff is good to have for a multitude of things. It's stretchy. You don't necessarily need tape. But it's a great way to fix a splint if you decide to go that route.
Tom: All right. Okay.
Tayloe: So that's sort of your strains, sprains, and fractures mod. And then, [01:10:00.060] last but not least, your day-to-day stuff, right? That is your Band-Aids, you know, your little assorted bandages, that kind of stuff. You know, you don't need a whole lot unless you're gone for, you know, a couple of weeks or a week. But just think about day-to-day stuff, same stuff you've got in your medicine cabinet at home. You need a few in your kit.
Tom: Okay.
Tayloe: And last but not least, and I don't know [01:10:30.000] if you want to go down the rabbit hole of meds, but if we do, we'll bring it up in a minute, but a few tools, and we all like tools in this fishing world, that you need to have. A good pair of trauma shears. These are just burly ass scissors, basically.
Tom: All right.
Tayloe: Cut through waders, cut through wading boots. You can just access the cut, the bleed, [01:11:00.340] the break. You just need to have it. You can get some that are literally three inches long that'll cut through a penny.
Tom: Oh, wow. Okay.
Tayloe: Throw a pair in there. And then tweezers, right? I mean, tweezers can be used for a multitude of things, splinters, ticks, cleaning out and sort of debriding a wound that's got mess in it. So a good pair of tweezers, I can recommend one pair that are called [01:11:30.039] Bucks. B-U-C-K-S.
Tom: Okay.
Tayloe: And they're great. I would say, most people are familiar with these things. They've got sort of a tick puller end to get in to get a tick, and then they grab splinters. And they're about maybe half an inch long. They're great to have in there.
Tom: Okay.
Tayloe: So there you go, Tom. Those are the, you know, five or six mods. [01:12:00.780] And listen, I know I've been doing this a while. People are sitting there, going, "My God, I'm going to have to have a backpack for my first aid kit." I'm literally looking in my closet in my office, and obviously, I have 400 different first aid kits. The one that I'm looking at right now...
Tom: Maybe you should send me one, Mike. Or Tayloe.
Tayloe: I feel bad if I don't. [01:12:30.000] But look, the one I'm looking at now would fit into a sling pack, a fanny pack, your glove box. It has everything that I just mentioned, except the SAM splint because it's just too long.
Tom: All right.
Tayloe: So again, taking a course, having a little bit of, you know, information and a little bit of training sort of tells you what you need, a little bit of research and seeing the different types [01:13:00.100] and brands. You know, you can take that information and pour it down to build or be able to go into a store and grab one off the shelf or order one and tweak it. And you're good to go.
Tom: Okay. And, you know, we didn't talk about meds, but if somebody needs meds, they better have them with them, right? It's like, if you have an anaphylactic reaction to bee stings, you better have an EpiPen with you. [01:13:30.000]
Tayloe: Well, totally. Yeah, yeah. Especially, you know, again, we're not going to go down that rabbit hole, but if you are allergic, have some type of allergy, you absolutely should have one. And look, here's another plug for wilderness courses. They teach you how to use EpiPen. That doesn't give you permission, because they're prescription, to go get one and carry one, because that sort of crosses the sort of prescription medical provider. However, if someone else has one [01:14:00.795] and they're incapacitated to use it, you now can assist them with theirs, right?
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Tayloe: But look, you have meds. Excuse me, Tom. This is my recommendation. Day trips, short little jaunts, you know, that's just your over-the-counters, your Tylenols, your ibuprofens, Benadryl, that kind of stuff. But if you're going on a trip-trip, [01:14:30.340] it would behoove you to go drop into your physician, your PA. If you're going deep, go to a travel clinic and just let them know where you're going. They may not be, let's say, tropical doctors, but they certainly can find out what you probably should take just in case on your trip.
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
Tayloe: That's one thing we do see and, you know, we hear [01:15:00.279] from lodges that are a little bit remote than others, where...I mean, they don't keep these meds. Somebody shows up that may just need an antibiotic or, you know, something like that, that if they had had it, one day of just chilling and then the trip continues. But folks that don't, now they've got to go find a clinic in Madagascar. And God knows what that's going to be. And it could be a trip-ender. So I think a little bit of planning [01:15:30.079] for these longer trips is just a good, you know, risk reduction thing for a trip of a lifetime.
Tom: Yeah, I know if I'm going to a really remote place and the water might be questionable, I'm going to usually ask my doctor for one of the stronger antibiotics to kill dysentery and whatever. I don't even remember what the name of it is. But probably good thing [01:16:00.439] to do if you're going to be way out there.
Tayloe: Yeah, for sure. And look, you know, while we're just kind of knocking around different things and we're talking about travel, one thing that we always recommend if we're consulting or talking to folks is if they're truly...because we do, and you know this, we travel far and wide to fish these days to just some pretty remote third-world-y places, and you can buy these, [01:16:30.199] you know, Rescue Essentials has, not a kit but a module, is a module that has suture material, syringes, and needles. And it's not for you. You don't touch it, right? This gets packed in the bottom of your bag. If you end up in a sketchy clinic or, you know, medical place somewhere in a third world or a crazy place, you give that to the provider.
Tom: Interesting.
Tayloe: So they can use [01:17:00.220] those tools instead of the ones they just washed with, you know, mouthwash and put them back in the drawer.
Tom: Yeah. Okay. Good point.
Tayloe: So, yeah, just a whole nother...I mean, we could go down that travel medicine side, but you know, let's keep it light.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Your lawyer probably wants you to keep it light, too, right?
Tayloe: Yeah. And your listeners probably, too.
Tom: Yeah, right. They probably got enough. They're probably [01:17:30.100] scared to death now.
Tayloe: Now they're not going in.
Tom: Yeah.
Tayloe: And listen, you know, no matter the presentations we give, the articles we write, it doesn't matter. Look, we always lead with...it's not a fear factor where, you know, we're trying to scare you to take the course or go spend money. But look, man, we've been doing this a long time, and it's inevitable. Accidents and things happen. It just does. So just be prepared for it.
Tom: The Boy Scout oath. [01:18:00.000] All right, Tayloe, that was great. That was succinct and spot on. And you have given me a new incentive to go online to Rescue Essentials and get myself a kit. I'm going to do that today.
Tayloe: Does that mean I don't have to send you one?
Tom: Yeah, I'll get one. I'll get one. It's on me. [01:18:30.000]
Tayloe: I know. And in talking to you, if I do, I need to get it, because aren't you leaving here pretty soon to go deep?
Tom: Yeah, but I'm going to be at a place where I'll be okay.
Tayloe: Well, no, we're not going to go down that rabbit hole.
Tom: No, I'll get it before I go. I promise. I promise, I'll get it before I go.
Tayloe: That's right. Good, good. You got to remember, we're in business for a reason. We go to lodges.
Tom: Yeah, yeah, right. Okay, well, Tayloe, [01:19:00.060] thank you so much. Really appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us, which is extensive, and you had it well-organized. And I really appreciate it. For people that...well, nobody knows, but this is the second time we've done this because my podcast recording device malfunctioned last week. So we were well-rehearsed for this podcast. [01:19:30.000]
Tayloe: Even though it doesn't sound like it, we most certainly.
Tom: Yeah. All right, Tayloe.
Tayloe: No. Hey, well, thank you, Tom. I appreciate it. Like I said, I'm happy to get this information out to folks just so they stay safe and have good trips and good times on the river, for sure.
Tom: Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.
Tayloe: See you.
Tom: Thanks. Bye.
Man: Thanks for listening to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. [01:20:00.039] Have a question or comment? Send it to us at