Ozark Smallmouth Bass, with Country Singer JD Clayton
Podcast Transcript:
Tom R: Hi, and welcome to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer, and I hope you like that opening music. A little bit different, but that's because my guest today is a musician. My guest today is country singer JD Clayton, and the song is [00:00:30] "Dirt Roads of Red" from his album "Blue Sky Sundays". And I'm actually gonna play the whole song at the end of the podcast, after the interview so that you can enjoy the whole thing. JD's a great guy. He's also been featured in a really cool video by the great people at WildFly Productions called "Feathers and Strings". And it's all about JD and fishing for [00:01:00] smallmouths in the Ozark, and a little bit of him playing and some of him fishing. So we're gonna talk today about smallmouth fishing in the Ozarks with JD, because he's a fun guy to talk to, and he's got some interesting observations, so I hope you enjoy it.
Before we do the Fly Box, just a few announcements. I'm going to be at the Battenkill Fly Fishing Festival in Arlington, Vermont. [00:01:30] It's May 2nd through 4th. And I'm gonna be speaking on late morning on the 3rd of May in Arlington, Vermont. You can check out that by going online and looking for the Battenkill Fly Fishing Festival 2025. And I also have a couple of good friends there who you have probably heard of. Monte Burke, the author, one of my favorite fly fishing authors and fishing buddy, and then [00:02:00] my nemesis, Tim Flagler, is going to be presenting. And also there'll be filmmakers there from Hook-A and from the New Fly Fishers. So a lot of cool stuff going on. It's a great festival. It's been going on for a couple of years now, and it seems to grow every year, and it's a lot of fun and it's a great time to be in Vermont. So, anyway hope to see you there.
Can't make that, how about going to Iceland with me? I've got [00:02:30] a hosted trip July 15th through 20th in Iceland with fish partners for Atlantic salmon, maybe, brown trout, and Arctic char. So kind of a mixed bag, and it's gonna depend on probably what conditions there are and what's in the river. So I'm gonna be hosting that with my co-worker, Jeremy K. Ryan from Orvis Adventures. So we're really looking forward to that.
Another trip I have [00:03:00] is to Mexico to the Campeche region. I'm gonna be co-hosting a small group of people to Enrico Puglisi's Lodge. And the focus there is gonna be baby tarpon, which are, I think, great fish. They're a lot of fun. They jump, they run, they're usually eager to take a fly and, you know, they can run anywhere from [00:03:30] 5 to, I don't know, 50 pounds. I've never fished there, but I hear that it is a great place to catch lots of baby tarpon and Enrico Puglisi is a lot of fun. This is available for three double occupancies only, so you need to either bring your spouse or bring another fishing buddy because there are no single rooms available. It's a very small lodge.
And then finally, I have a trip [00:04:00] to Spain in the Pyrenees, fishing for brown trout on September 28th through October 4th. You can find all of these on the Orvis Adventures website if you're interested in pursuing them further. But love to see podcast listeners there. And I have had quite a few podcast listeners in the past come on my hosted trips.
Speaking of trips, I have three ideas for you for your fishing in the coming season. [00:04:30] First one is a guide in the Florida Keys. You know, I get a lot of questions from people about, "I'm going to Key West on vacation, is there somebody there that you recommend that I can go fishing with for a day or two?" And our guide this week is Captain Andrew Tipler. He specializes in the lower Florida Keys. And Captain Tipler provides all the equipment and flies you need. [00:05:00] He fishes the lower Keys and the Marquesas, which is an incredibly spectacular place. It's outside of Key West, out in the ocean, to the west of Key West. And there you can chase bonefish, tarpon, maybe permit sharks, kutas, jacks, and snappers. That's a cool thing about the Keys. It's such a beautiful place, and you never know what you might encounter [00:05:30] next in these subtropical waters. So if you're gonna be in that area, you're planning on trip in that area, I recommend that you contact Captain Andrew.
Our outfitter this week is Imagine That Outfitters and they are in Texas. They specialize in overnight trips on the Devil's River, which is probably the most scenic and [00:06:00] unspoiled river in Texas. You fish for bass, but it's in spring-fed crystal clear waters. It's more like spring creek fishing except for bass instead of trout. And they fish that river for largemouth and smallmouth bass. But Imagine That Outfitters also can do gar trips and Guadalupe river trips for trout in Texas' only trout stream. And I know they [00:06:30] chase some carp a little bit too. So if you're in the Texas area, that's a good outfitter to get involved with to take a guided trip and to learn something more about Texas waters.
And finally, our expedition this week is Forest Lake Fly Fishing Retreat. This is a world-renowned place for catching very large brook trout, 3 to 6-pound brook trout. It's a remote [00:07:00] luxury camp. You stay in like yurt-like structures, very, very comfortable. It's near Jasper and Banff National Parks, and you actually helicopter in to the camp through the heart of the Canadian Rockies. When you get there, there are no roads and no motorized ground access. So you're really in the wilderness, but you're in a luxurious place in the wilderness. And if you're always wanting [00:07:30] to catch a really big brook trout, this is the place to go.
All right. Let's start the Fly Box. And the Fly Box is where you ask questions, or sometimes you pass on a tip that you wanna share with other listeners. And I try to answer your questions or I read the tip, and you can send me your question or tip at
So the first one is from Josh from Boise. "I've been a large fan of the podcast for quite some time. It has helped me get through some tough days at work. Thank you for all you do for us. [00:08:30] I have a question regarding etymology books. I want to be able to differentiate between the different types of mayfly nymphs and various aquatic insects that I pick up and see on the river. Are there any books that you would recommend that would be a good guide for aquatic insects? Thanks again for all that you do."
Yeah, Josh. There's a number of good ones. Three that I would recommend are the "Hatch Guide for Western Streams" by Jim Schollmeyer. The second one [00:09:00] is "Western Hatches" by Hafele and Hughes. And that is that is a bigger, more complete book. The "Hatch Guide for Western Streams" is more of a pocket guide. And then there's a third pocket guide called "Hatch Guide for Western Streams" by Dave Hughes. So those are three that I recommend that I have on my bookshelf. There are probably others out there, but those are the ones that I use for a reference.
Tom: Hey, Tom. This is Tom in Boise [00:09:30] calling. I've been listening since the very first podcast and I've learned a ton of things from you and your guests. So I wanna offer the obligatory thank you for all that you do. Tom, over the past couple of months, it's come up, some people have written in and asked about chairs and talked about how their back gets tortured while sitting at the desk for a period of time. And I'm no different. [00:10:00]. I had back surgery four summers ago and about two years ago sat down and tied for two hours straight, and it really messed me up for about three solid weeks. I couldn't believe the setback I endured. So at that time, I went and I bought a yoga ball chair. And total game changer for me. I could tie for hours. It's just wonderful. I highly recommend it. [00:10:30] It's really made a huge difference.
Another question I've seen come up was about lighting at your fly-tying desk. And about a year ago, I kinda redid all the lighting on my desk and I've got a rolltop desk. What I bought was just those, you know, light strips that you see everywhere. There's different levels, you know, low to high, and I put it under the overhang [00:11:00] of the top of the desk, so they point right down into my tying area. What a difference. The whole desk is illuminated. And of course, because I am 51, I also bought a magnifying lamp which I could not be tying the size 22 midges that I'm tying right now without...I couldn't even tie a size 16 pheasant tail without it, so. [00:11:30] All right, Tom. Thanks. Take care.
Tom R: Tom, thank you very much. I've tried a yoga ball chair before and I didn't like it for fly time, but I'm gonna try it again. Obviously, sounds like it's easier on your back. So I guess some kinda wiggle chair that you don't sit constantly in one position will be of help. And those light strips sound like a really great idea. So thank you very much for your tips.
[00:12:00] Here's an email from Rana [SP] or Rana, sorry, I don't know how to pronounce your name. "First off, thanks for the podcast also loving your book, "The Orvis Guide to Finding Trout". Honestly, lately, it's been my go-to guide for pretending that I know what I'm doing on the water. So here's the deal. I live in Pennsylvania, you know, land of cheese steaks, miles of wild trout streams in the best trout fishermen in the world who are happy to share their knowledge hands on, the best part, [00:12:30] you can basically park, grab a rod, walk a few steps, and start fishing all in one move. Many times it's the trout version of drive-through service, almost.
This year though, I'm switching things up. I'm heading over to the mountain streams in my state, and also to your neck of the woods, Vermont, to hike up to the lakes. With all the hiking, gravel, woods and rocks, I need your suggestion for boots. Currently, I'm rocking rubber soles with cleats, but I'm thinking those aren't gonna make it through long hikes [00:13:00] without causing discomfort. What do you think? Should I stick with rubber or go full on grip-is-my-middle-name felt soles? I could really use some advice before I end up with a pair of boots that scream, "I only fish 20 yards from the car." I've heard good things about Orvis boots, so I'm curious, do you recommend any from the lineup that would give me great support for long hikes while still keeping me steady in the streams? I want something that'll keep my feet comfy on the trails, while also not [00:13:30] leaving me slipping in the water. Thanks for all the wisdom and contributions to the industry."
Tom R: Oh, Rana, I actually do have a good suggestion. First of all, you don't want felt. If you're walking on trails, you do not wanna wear felt soles. You're gonna slip on wet leaves in the mud and on rocks. Felt soles are great for wading slippery rivers, but they're not good for long hikes. So that leaves you with a rubber sole. And [00:14:00] I am a huge fan of the new Orvis Ultralight Wading Boot. This is a super light boot. It's the lightest boot of its class and a true wading boot that gives you support. And I find that it gives me plenty of support, but they're super light, they dry quickly. The best thing about these boots is that they have a new Michelin sole on 'em.
Our product developer, [00:14:30] Jesse Haller, worked with Michelin to develop a new sole. Not only is it a new tread pattern, but it's also a new rubber compound. And I've been wearing these things for, oh, I guess close to a year now, and I have not had to stud them. I think that there's something about this new sole that really grips well and they're really almost as good as felt. They're really close to felt without [00:15:00] studs. It's the first time I've ever honestly said that about a rubber sole. And, you know, the other thing is that they have the special tread pattern that actually sheds mud as you walk through mud. So when you're on a muddy trail or a muddy stream bank, they clear up really quickly. So I can't say enough good about these boots, and they're less expensive than the other waiting boots, so I would go to your local [00:15:30] Orvis store or dealer and try a pair out and and see how you like 'em. I'm very, very fond of these boots.
Here's an email from Mike from Arizona. "Although I spend my summers in Missoula, I've recently purchased a thermometer for the river, and I wanna know how to maximize this tool. What temperatures are ideal for trout? Are there certain temperatures that are more conducive to nymphs hatching, emerges, adults?" So Mike, [00:16:00] in general, trout are gonna be most active between 45 and 65 degrees Fahrenheit. Trout can adapt to local conditions and can sometimes feed more aggressively below 45. But as the temperature climbs into about 50 degrees, any trout, their metabolism is really gonna start moving. And between 50 and 60, they're gonna be very, very active and probably feeding all the time. [00:16:30] You wanna stop fishing at 68 degrees because trout burn up a lot of energy because metabolism is really increased, and warmer water holds less oxygen. So you just wanna stop fishing for trout anyway at 68 degrees.
As far as nymphs and adult insects hatching, generally, below 45 degrees, you're not [00:17:00] gonna find much other than midges. Midges will hatch at almost any water temperatures. Once you hit 45 or so, you'll start to see some smaller olive mayflies hatching. And then, you know, again, when you get into 50 degree range, 50 to 60 degrees, nearly everything's gonna hatch, all kinds of insects. And I don't know of anybody that's really studied the exact temperatures that certain insects will hatch at. [00:17:30] We do know that the Eastern Hendrickson mayfly hatches once a water temp pits about 50 degrees. But that's the first hatch, and that's kinda why people pay attention to that temperature. But, you know, once it gets above that, you never know what you're gonna see, and you could see any type of aquatic insect. So anyway, a thermometer's gonna help, and it's good that you're going to use this on the water.
Dakota: Hi, Tom. This is Dakota [00:18:00] in Colorado giving you a call. I am asking today about wader care. I was out recently, realized my waders were filthy, and then wanted to wash them. I washed them, and they're currently hang drying, but I see on the Orvis' website that it recommends washing gently in warm water with a dry detergent, which is what I did, but then it also recommends reapplying the DWR with Nikwax. Now, I have Nikwax for my jackets and other waterproof outdoor gear, [00:18:30] but that specifically says to put it in the washing machine and then use it in a dryer. I don't know if I'm supposed to do that with waders. So I'm wondering how I can use Nikwax to reapply DWR on my waders when it kind of goes against the instructions of the Orvis website. Any advice would be great, otherwise, I might just hang them to dry like I normally do. Thanks so much and have a great rest of your day. Thanks for all you do. Bye.
Tom R: So, Dakota, I understand why there is confusion and I talked [00:19:00] to Natalie Cullum who is our wader developer, and here's what she said. There is a spray, and that's what we recommend, Nikwax spray, that you would apply to your wades after you wash and dry them. But there is also a detergent that can be put in the wash as you wash the waders. So you can do it either way. So [00:19:30] it depends on which kind of Nikwax you have. So you'll either put it in the wash or spray 'em afterwards. So hope that helps.
Here's an email from Ben from Western Massachusetts. "I've had a rough late winter into spring transition season fishing for brookies and a few browns in my local western Massachusetts small streams. I'm not shocked by this after having a severe drought through the spawning season in 2024, followed by one of the coldest winters in quite a few years in the area, with most small streams [00:20:00] freezing over. But after several unsuccessful outings in fishing streams, I have fished my entire life. I'm beginning to wrestle with the age old question, is it me or the fish? What's your opinion of the status of New England region small streams after a tough run of stream conditions?
I haven't seen more than a single trout in many streams, even blowing up pools after fishing as an experiment to attempt to move a few fish, as they say. In this cold water, will the trout stay glued to their hiding spots, even [00:20:30] with me blowing up the hole they're potentially hiding in? Today, I did catch a glimpse of hope as I was clumsily waiting through a pool, and I spooked a very large trout for this dream, but still no sight of small and medium-sized trout. Are they in winter mode still, water temp's 42 at 2 p.m. on March 15th, when I saw this fish shoot out of a feeding lane upstream past my line of vision, assuming it was headed for cover?
Is this a good sign or fool's gold as larger trout are generally more hearty than their [00:21:00] smaller counterparts? When should trout fry start to hatch in our area after this kind of winter? I haven't seen all the trout fry I see in most springs, but I haven't been paying attention as much as I am this year to timing and temperatures with the possibility of really low success spawn. Do you think we lost a part of the trout population had a limited successful spawn during low water all later summer through fall by the winter we had?
An idea for the podcast would be a local fisheries biologist, [00:21:30] come on and discuss this maybe after an episode with several short interviews from areas affected from last fall to compare how different areas are rebounding and we're impacted. Last but not least, thank you for all you and the entire Orvis crew do for our environment and fisheries. It can't be said enough how important what you guys do. Also, are you gonna be doing any meet-and-greet type ever in New England area in the near future? Love to get a chance to [00:22:00] meet the voice I've been listening to for over a decade while mowing the lawn, driving and doing things around my house, as well as at work while performing brainless duties."
Well, Ben, hope to see you at the Battenkill Festival, as I mentioned before. Now, regarding small screen trout, yeah, they can go through cycles. And what I've seen over the years is it's not so much the conditions during the spawning season. [00:22:30] In a small stream, it doesn't take many spawning pears of trout to repopulate the river with eggs and and small fry. The most limiting factor that I have seen is when you get really severe floods in March. This is when the the brown trout and the brook trout eggs begin to hatch, and those little tiny fry come out of the eggs [00:23:00] and they're virtually helpless.
And if you get a really severe flood, I don't mean just a normal runoff flood, but I mean a really severe flood, a lot of the fry get killed. They get washed into fields. And then you will see, you know, two, three years down the line, you will see a lower population of a certain size of trout. So they can have year-class dominance just because of that. But I don't think the spawning season [00:23:30] affects it as much. I do know, though, that, you know, during the summer when the water gets super low in these small streams, you do lose some fish to predators and just lack of habitat, just lack of places for fish to hide. And so I have found that if we have a really dry summer a couple of years in a row, yeah, the fishing for a couple of years might be tough. Then again, if we have a pretty [00:24:00] good water year during the summer, you know, the small stream fishing can be quite good the following year. But there's a lot of factors involved in this and those are just the ones that are immediately apparent.
But yeah, small streams do have population cycles. They go up and down, and the thing we can hope for the most, I think, are cool wet summers and March weather without severe floods. You [00:24:30] have those two things, you're probably gonna have pretty good population to drought. And then again, you know, in New England, the rainfalls vary by microclimate. So some of the rivers, not all the rivers, because there was a drought in certain rivers last summer, not all the rivers were gonna experience the the same problem. And we'll hope that this March we don't have any severe floods.
Here's an email from Matt. "Thanks for all the great content you share with all of us via your podcast. [00:25:00] I have a couple of questions concerning fishing for trout with crayfish patterns. One, what time of year is best? Two, what line of leader setup would you recommend for small to medium, 10 to 20-foot across size, freestone streams? Three, how exactly do you, or would you fish them? Four, do they produce or have the potential to produce better results than, say, a streamer fished during the same conditions? Why would you fish this over a streamer?"
Well, first of all, Matt, I think a lot of the streamers [00:25:30] that we use, particularly, Woolly Bugger and some of the sculpin types imitate a crayfish pretty well. So I think that, you know, when you fish crayfish pattern, you pretty much would fish it like you would a streamer. Now, there are lots of ways to fish a streamer. You know, you can cast it to the far bank and strip it, and that does imitate a crayfish because crayfish often live in muddy banks, and when they're disturbed, [00:26:00] they'll shoot out from those banks and swim away. So that could imitate crayfish.
But also, you know, an upstream cast with maybe dead drift or maybe just a little twitch in between. And mainly dead drifting that is a good way to fish a streamer. It's also a good way to fish a crayfish. So, you know, it's gonna vary in the exact water type, but I wouldn't fish 'em much differently than you would fish streamers. Maybe a [00:26:30] little bit slower and a little bit deeper, but crayfish do swim and they can swim pretty fast. They don't usually swim long distances like a baitfish would. So your strip should be short with pauses in between and then letting the fly fall to the bottom.
As far as setups are concerned, you know, anything you would fish with streamers, I wouldn't use anything too light. You know, depending on the size fly, but I'd probably use 2x or 3x [00:27:00] on those patterns because fish can often slam a crayfish pattern pretty hard. Not always, but they can. So it's not that much different than you would fish streamers, just know that they're gonna be a little bit closer to the bottom usually, and they're not gonna swim for long distances without a pause and dropping to the bottom. That's about all. Other than that, they're a lot of fun and they can produce some big trout.
[00:27:30] Here's an email from Alex. "Love the podcast. I live in Orange County, California near the ocean. On top of ocean fly fishing, we have small spring creeks in our local mountains with wild trout. I have found using two dry flies, one larger indicator fly like a foam beetle or a chubby with a trailing smaller dry is most effective. My question is, there are times when I'm casting in a run and my indicator fly will land on its side or upside down, nearly every cast. And I can't explain why. [00:28:00] I often have to cast sidearm to get under branches and brush. Could this be why? I'll be getting takes on my trailing dry, but it seems like whenever my indicator fly lands on its side or upside down, fish get wary of biting the trailing fly. Your wisdom is much appreciated as always."
Alex, I don't think it's the way you're casting that's making that fly land on its side. There are two things that might be happening here. [00:28:30] One is that your tippet might be too light for that larger indicator fly. If it is, you know, those things are designed to be air-resistant and land upright. You know, if they're probably constructed, they will land upright. But if your tippet it's a little bit too light and you're not putting enough energy into the cast, they might fall over on their side. [00:29:00] You might also be twisting your tippet. If the tippet's too light in relation to the air resistance to the fly, might be twisting and then landing. And the tippet is unraveling and flopping your fly over.
But one of the things that I think could be happening is that your flies haven't been tied properly. Sometimes we get a little bit carried away with putting too much foam [00:29:30] on our flies. And if you get that high stack of foam on a fly, that's gonna make it fall over. So I would look at the fly patterns and see how much foam there is on 'em. You didn't say if you're tying tying 'em or buying 'em. But if you're tying 'em, I would not put quite as much foam on the top of the fly and maybe a little bit bigger wing to help stabilize that fly in the air. And if you're buying 'em, just look for ones that don't have a big, big bunch of foam on 'em. [00:30:00] I think that'll help.
And yeah, flies that land upside down don't seem to work very well. I haven't seen the same problem...if a fly lands on its side, you know, a lot of insects get crippled and they don't always land perfectly, but it seems like...because we often have an indicator wing or a little indicator cider on the tops of those flies. When they land upside down, yeah, it probably doesn't look that realistic to a trout. But I don't think it's due to sidearm casting, I think it's due to [00:30:30] your leader mechanics and your fly mechanics.
Here's an email from Dan. "Is there anything I should put on the cork handle of a new Orvis fly rod to protect it? What is the best thing to do to clean cork handle?"
Well, Dan, I wasn't sure about this because I just let my handles get dirty, but I checked with Shawn Brillon, our bamboo rod master, and here's what he said. "I don't advise anything to be applied [00:31:00] to the cork for protection. Cork is very durable and resilient material with its best attribute being the feel of natural cork. There's some cork sealers on the market, as well as in the days of old anglers often varnish the grip. I find both of these options as not necessary and often make the grip slippery when it gets wet while fishing."
And so for cleaning it, here's what Shawn recommends. "A good wipe down with a soft cotton cloth is about all that's required [00:31:30] for many years of service. Cleaners and goo removers often degrade the cork and leave ridges growth lines of natural cork where it is denser. "Old nasty grips," he said, "start with a simple cotton cloth, wipe down and use a little pressure. Often it turns out that the grip felt better when it was dirty." So not much you need to do on your cork grip. It's pretty resilient and pretty low-maintenance stuff.
Tomas: [00:32:00] Hey, Tom, it's Tomas from Drumheller, dinosaur capital of Canada. I was just wondering if there's a way we could figure out what the weight of line was on a reel. Maybe we bought it at an estate sale, maybe it got passed down. I have my grandfather's old reel. I don't know what weight it is just by looking at it. Is there a way I could figure out what weight that line is on it? And then my second kind of question is, what [00:32:30] should we be looking for if we're buying or using old, used gear? Obviously, cracks in the reel and rod, but are there any other things you might wanna look over to kind of say, this is a bad deal gone wrong, or stay away from this? Or is it really just once there's a fish on and it breaks, then you know, if it's broken? Thanks for all you do, and yeah.
Tom R: So there's no real good way of finding [00:33:00] out the fly line size. In the old days, all fly lines were made about the same, about the same taper, and you could use a micrometer on the belly of the line and pretty much figure out what line it was. But that isn't the case now. Fly lines are made with different densities, different coatings, different tapers, and it's not easy. The best way to do it is to go to a fly shop that has a bunch of rods to test, and try [00:33:30] the line on a bunch of 'em. Maybe have somebody in the fly shop go with you and see what they think the line is. But there's no good way of actually measuring a fly line unless you have a grain scale. I mean, you could weigh the first 35 feet of the fly line on a grain scale, and then you can go online and see what the AFTM fly line specs are for grains, but you probably don't have a grain scale and don't wanna bother with that. [00:34:00] And even so, a lot a lot of flylines these days don't follow those specs as well. So it's best to just try on a bunch of rods, and see which one works.
As far as buying old gear, boy, I don't have a lot of good idea. I mean, if you're buying it on eBay or someplace where you can't see anything, you never know what you're gonna get. You know, I would look at the buyer's record to see, you know, what [00:34:30] kind of record they have as far as being a seller. And if they're honest, they're gonna have a lot of good feedback. If you're actually looking at something in a garage sale, yeah, look for cracks, look for functional problems. You know, it's pretty difficult. You know, fly reels and fly rods unless they're really abused, are generally gonna be pretty good, even older ones. I wouldn't buy any used waders, if I were you. [00:35:00] Maybe wading shoes if they look in decent shape, but I wouldn't buy used waders. You never know when and where they're gonna leak. And I wouldn't buy used tippet material either, because you don't know how old it is. So other than that, I think you just have to use your judgment and try to figure out what kind of shape the stuff is in.
All right. That is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to JD, and talk about smallmouths [00:35:30] and then listen to a little bit of his music. My guest today is musician, JD Clayton. And JD, you probably hate this question, you don't like to be pigeonholed, but where would you put your music if I were to describe it to people?
JD: Well, the easy answer is probably country. In 2025, country is the [00:36:00] kind of blanket term for a lot of sub-genres.
Tom R: Yeah, sure.
JD: In my music, there's kind of a warm blend of rock, soul, and you know, and at the end of the day, it's all based around storytelling and that's just kind of the central focal point of country music. [00:36:30] It's just people sharing stories through song. And so that's kind of my deal. I just try to write songs that may or may not have to be about my life, but maybe mean something to somebody else. And I don't know, songs just kind of have a way of, like, relaying information that we already know in a different way that [00:37:00] helps us understand...
Tom R: Kinda like a podcast, huh?
JD: Yeah. Kinda like a podcast.
Tom R: Except a lot more artistic, I must say.
JD: I don't know. I dunno. You have an art to your podcast.
Tom R: Really? What is that? Anyway, you live in Arkansas, right? And you're...
JD: That's right.
Tom R: ...born and raised in Arkansas. And you are the subject of a great film [00:37:30] that's out there, that Wild on the Fly did with you. I can't remember the title of the film.
JD: He named it "Feathers and Strings."
Tom R: "Feathers and Strings," and people can watch it on YouTube. Guys at Wild Fly produce some of the best videos and films out there these days. I'm a big fan of their work and I had enjoyed yours and thought [00:38:00] I would reach out and try to get you on the show here and talk about some of the things you love and, specifically, smallmouth bass fishing in the Ozarks, right?
JD: Yeah. I mean, I have Scotty and his team at Wild Fly to thank for...I mean, I really, up until that time, I had not done a ton of [00:38:30] smallmouth bass fishing. I grew up...my grandparents lived on a lake, and a lot of the fishing that we did around here was just like, you know, you'd take a kayak out, legs hanging off the side, and you'd toss, you know, a topwater fly up against the grass and catch 500 bluegill or sunfish in a day. And, you know, it wasn't until [00:39:00] I met Scotty that I kind of...well, I should back up that Scotty has influenced my family and kind of, like, created...
My little brother found his videos and basically just grew in his knowledge of fishing overnight, just surpassed me and everything I knew. And that kind of sent me down the path of learning about Scotty and Wild Fly. We got connected, started to do some projects [00:39:30] together, and then we just became really good friends. And Scotty started inviting me out on some trips and he wanted to do a trip to Arkansas. So it's been in the last several years that, through that relationship, my understanding of my own waters in my own backyard, what they have to offer and just, it's kind [00:40:00] of been cool.
Tom R: Do you think that fly fishing brings you closer to those waters than other kinds of fishing?
JD: Definitely. I mean, just in the last week, I got dinner with a friend of mine that is like the small mouth guy here in Arkansas, Keith Reeves. He goes by Ozark Mountain Fly. [00:40:30] And he's an incredible tier. And we had dinner this week and, like, just got to talk about some of the things that we have right around here. And I don't know, you don't have those kinds of discussions with a friend when...I didn't. I never had those kinds of discussions when I was just going out fishing with a spinning rod. There's not to say that that's definitely how I got started, [00:41:00] that's definitely how I learned about fishing and the sport. But since becoming a fly fisherman, I don't know, it draws you in and you become a student for life at that point.
Tom R: Yeah. You sure do.
JD: Because there's just so much to learn. I mean, you alone know, I mean, it's gonna take my whole life of reading, researching, watching videos [00:41:30] to just to become a master. I mean, you can just never stop learning about the sport. And so I think to answer your question, yes, like, if you're gonna get good at fly fishing, if you're gonna learn the waters that are in your backyard, you've got to...I don't know, the sport kind of draws you in and teaches you just because you're hungry to keep learning and learn all you can.
Tom R: And you never stop learning.
JD: [00:42:00] That's right.
Tom R: You never. I mean, I've been doing it for a long time and I learn something new every time I go out. So, yeah, I learn it from friends. I learn it from my own experiences. I learn it from guides, but, you know, you just keep on learning. And that's what I think satisfies something within us as humans.
JD: Yeah. Yeah, it does. It's great. I mean, I love that...I mean, I'm [00:42:30] almost 30. For the longest time...I guess I learned to fly fish when I was like 12 or 13. And on any given day, if we just were to go out and rig up and cast, I could probably catch a fish. And that was the...you know, depending on where we were, I knew what I should probably tie on. And [00:43:00] that was kind of, like, the level that it existed for a really long time. And then, again, going back to what I was saying earlier, thanks to guys like Scotty and Wild Fly and my brother's hunger for knowledge, it was like, wow, there's so much more to this sport. There's so much more to everything that involves [00:43:30] fly fishing. I mean, this...So yeah. In, in just the last year, it's been a blast just diving in headfirst and going to dinner with...you know, getting beers with other fly fishermen just to learn what they have to have to say. And it's, yeah, it's been kind of a great little season the last year and a half, two years.
Tom R: Now, that brings up an interesting question. Because I just had a couple of...I was just at a fly fishing show in New Jersey, and I had a couple of people [00:44:00] that came up to me and said, "You know, I'm new at this. And, you know, I don't know anybody locally that does this, and I wanna try to find some fishing buddies and share some knowledge with people. How would you suggest that people do that? That they reach out into the fly fishing community in their area like you have?"
JD: Well, I think you could [00:44:30] probably start by practically just getting on Instagram and try to find fishermen in your area, or your state, maybe start at state level, and then slowly work backwards. Because what I've found in the last month or so is that there's less than five guys in the State of Arkansas that are like [00:45:00] the guys that if you say their name, if anybody cares about fishing, they're gonna know 'em. And from there, those guys have started groups, organizations, they go to nature centers, they do talks. They're spitting with everything that has to do with the sport. So it's like, if I can find that guy, then from there, he's gonna give me five other people that are maybe not quite his level, that have knowledge about [00:45:30] fishing in the state, that then will pass me on to people that are maybe in my neighborhood that I had no idea where close by.
So that's what I've done in the last month is just start kind of narrowing down, because although I wish I could, I don't get to fish with Scotty every every week and he's very busy. So I've had to resort to finding other guys that like to fish in Arkansas. [00:46:00] Yeah. That's how I would start. I'd just get on Instagram and find your big fish, if you will, and slowly work from there. And the number one thing about people that work and live and participate in the fly fishing community is that they're all, for the most part, so willing to lend a hand, a helping hand in just learning more about anything. [00:46:30] Fishermen, fly fishermen especially, are the ones I've run into have always just been super gracious to pass along knowledge.
Tom R: Yeah. I think that's very true. And, you know, in the past, you would recommend that somebody join a Trout Unlimited chapter or IFF, International Fly Fishers, I think that's what they're called, used to be the FFF chapter. But, [00:47:00] you know, people your age don't really wanna go to clubs, right? It's not a thing with younger people. You know, it's more social media.
JD: Yeah. I mean, everybody can post all the things they're working on now. And like, Keith that I mentioned earlier, my buddy that is a great fisherman here, he started by [00:47:30] just sharing, doing an Instagram live or a Facebook Live in the classroom while he had students around and he would sit there and tie his famous creek crawler. And, you know, you could sit there for, I don't know, an hour, I think is what it was taking him to tie a fly, you know, and it was just, that was how all these, like, young guys were [00:48:00] learning kind of about the scene around here in Fort Smith and kind of the surrounding areas of Arkansas.
Tom R: Yeah, that's a good point. I never thought of going on Instagram and just kind of searching locally for people. But that's a great idea. Yeah, it's funny, I have noticed in the past, I don't know, 5, 10 years, the [00:48:30] amazing number of both country and bluegrass musicians getting into fly fishing. It's pretty crazy.
JD: It is crazy.
Tom R: Do you know why that is?
JD: I don't. I mean, I have some theories, but I...
Tom R: Let's hear your theories. Let's hear your theories.
JD: I think fishing and music [00:49:00] have always kind of had some sort of a relationship. When it comes to fly fishing, I mean, the easy answer is that fly fishing is an art in and of itself. And so, I don't know, maybe that just goes hand in hand with making music and that it's another art form and it's just...[00:49:30] again, there's so much more to fly fishing. It's not just about grabbing spinning rod off the rack and checking out a lure. It's, what weight rod am I gonna have today? I've got a rig up. What flies are we throwing? Well, none of these are working, so I gotta try these. Like, it goes on and on and on and on, all the levels of detail that you can, you know, dive into.
So it's just, [00:50:00] I don't know, that's like, one theory is that it's another art form and people love to dive into all the different levels of fly fishing. But I don't know, it's just become like, I don't know, fly fishing is kind of a...it's more of a sophisticated sport. And I've started to see a lot of fishermen try to use it as, like, a branding [00:50:30] to go along with, like, their marketing for their music. It's another branding piece.
Tom R: Huh. That's interesting.
JD; You know, and it's place to...I don't know, if we're gonna use music to tell stories, fly fishing is kind of another segment to, like, tell more stories. It gets us out into nature and we get to, I don't know, have new experiences and then come back and share what [00:51:00] we learn. So, I don't know. That's not a great answer, but...
Tom R: No. That's an honest answer though. That's a good one. It's an interesting one.
JD: I'm glad that it's a trend, though. I'm glad that it's getting more people fishing and it's cool that venues and promoters understand that it's important to the artists now, because now, like, when we get invited to go do a show...Like, we're about to go do a show out in Montana. [00:51:30]
Tom R: Oh.
JD: Yeah. The promoters are quick to be like, "Oh, don't worry. We'll make sure we connect you with somebody about maybe fishing that day," or it started to become...you know, and they know I fish, but still, it's not just me. There's a lot of people that are getting into it. And some days when you're getting ready to play a show, I don't know, you have a lot of downtime, so it's perfect for setting up your stuff and then going out and fishing [00:52:00] for a few hours before showtime.
Tom R: Now, where's your show in Montana, just in case people wanna catch it?
JD: Well, let me see. We're flying into Bozeman. It's called the Wild West Block Party, and it's in Yellowstone. I can't tell you exactly the town, I apologize, offhand...
Tom R: Well, people can probably find it online anyways, if it's an event, yeah.
JD: [00:52:30] Yeah. You can go to my website, jdclaytonofficial.com, and under tour you'll see that March 7th is the Wild West Block Party, and it's in Yellowstone. And yeah, it's gonna be really cool. I'm super excited. I've never been to Montana, let alone Yellowstone, so I'm super excited.
Tom R: Well, you'll see a lot of fly fishers there, particularly, Bozeman. Bozeman is a fishy town. I dunno [00:53:00] how many fly shops there are. It's fairly small. Well, it's not a small town anymore. Small city, more like, but there must be five, six, seven fly shops in that town alone, so yeah.
JD: Wow.
Tom R: Yeah, yeah. It's kind of trout fishing central. So you'll have a receptive audience there.
JD: Well, I'm excited. Hopefully, it'll work out where we get to do a little bit of fishing before the show.
Tom R: Yeah. So let's talk about [00:53:30] smallmouth in the Ozarks.
JD: Let's do it.
Tom R: You're relatively new to chasing smallmouth, right, with a fly rod?
JD: That's right.
Tom R: And so give people some tips on how to get started because, you know, people are realizing there's so much more to fly fishing than just trout. I mean, people still think, "Oh, well, I got a fly rod. I have to go fishing for trout, and I can't fish [00:54:00] close to home because there's no trout streams. And, you know, that's a real loss for them. So tell people, you know, what do you do to get ready for your first smallmouth trip, and what should you expect, and what should you look for?
JD: Well, when we were preparing for our trip, a lot of things come into play. [00:54:30] One of the biggest things that I've learned is water temperature. So that means choosing the right time of year to go. Water temperature for smallmouth, your sweet spot is like 65 to 80 degrees. So you need to be going out second week of April to first, second week of May.
Tom R: [00:55:00] That's in your part of the world, right? That's in your part of the world?
JD: In my part of Arkansas from the Ozarks down to the river valley region. And yeah, then it comes down to...This is a new thing that I'm learning right now is understanding the water column and all of the different flies that we can be throwing for the different parts of the water column. So if [00:55:30] we're gonna...if it's a day that we need to be throwing low, then we would...This is kind of where we ran into problems on our trip with with Scotty last April, was that we were there when it was, like, too early. So we were probably fishing in water that was like 58, 60 degrees.
[00:56:00] And we didn't have a vast fly assortment for that trip. We were kind of going in heavy-handed, ready to just only fish streamers and go crazy. And it was just, that was kind of a fool's errand. We just didn't do well [00:56:30] on that trip. And I think I attribute that to that we were there too early in the season. We might have been there pre-spawn. That's something to take into consideration. Watching the spawn, fish being on beds, and just kind of, like, you know, guarding and not going after your fly. And I think that was a problem. But [00:57:00] back to the understanding the kind of three parts of, like, the water column, if I was to go back today, I'd have, you know, like a creek crawler, fly, a Clouser, I'd have some streamers, and then I'd have a few topwater butts.
And that was a mistake that [00:57:30] I made on my last trip, that I would not repeat again. I didn't have a lot of flies to choose from, and I didn't have different colored flies. And so when you get out there and, you know, it's a cloudy day, or the water level has risen overnight on a creek, like, if you don't have options, then you're not prepared to [00:58:00] adapt to your situation and you're not gonna catch a lot of fish. That's been a huge thing in the last six months, is just learning that every single day changes what the fish do.
Tom R: It sure does.
JD: It's insane.
Tom R: It is. It's crazy.
JD: It's pretty insane.
Tom R: It's crazy. Every single day is different. Absolutely.
JD: So that's something that I would [00:58:30] recommend if you were going smallmouth fishing. The other thing I would do is make sure you have a really good group of buddies. We had more fun than we knew what to do with. And it was just the best time. And yeah, I don't know that's super important. You gotta share...Some days you have to go fly fishing by yourself, and that's part [00:59:00] of it. Sometimes you gotta get out and just meditate and do the thing, but it's always more fun when you can look down the stream and see your buddy. And when you get into a fish and raise your arms and he's cheering for you, there's something special about that.
Tom R: Yeah. Especially, if the fishing is slow. It's really important to have some good buddies along.
JD: That's right. It was definitely important on this trip we took last April. Fishing was super slow.
Tom R: [00:59:30] Did you find that, and have you found since that particular water types at different times a year are important for finding smallmouth?
JD: Yeah. I mean, that's something that I probably would not...I'm not the guy to ask on something like that. I think that what I noticed about our particular [01:00:00] trip was that, at any given part of the day, we were there several days, but the smaller fish were hanging out in the fast-moving water. Again, this is cold temperature water, colder than they probably like it. The smaller fish...Scotty was...I'm talking like, I don't know, 8 inches or smaller. Scotty got into [01:00:30] a couple in some really quick-moving water. Downstream, the only guy on the crew that had a sink tip rig, he was catching 'em on a yellow streamer in kind of, like, the middle water column in a much larger pool.
[01:01:00] And so, yeah. Again, for that given moment...that was, like, probably 8 a.m. in the morning, for that given moment, the bigger fish were hanging out in the deeper pool middle of the water. The smaller ones were in the faster water. I think if it was warmer, you might start to get some bigger fish moving into the rapids. But yeah, I don't know. [01:01:30] I need to go back when it's a lot warmer, like even just early June to some of...back to the same spot we were at. Kings River near Eureka Springs, Arkansas was where we were. I would go back to there the first week of June and try the whole thing again and see how they act and where they're hiding and [01:02:00] what they're doing.
Tom R: Yeah. It's definitely, you need to learn a river, whether it's trout or bass or even carp, you need to learn the moods of every season and where the fish are gonna be, I think.
JD: Yeah. Again, that's something that hopefully with my new buddies here in Arkansas, I'm gonna get to be educated on all that and learn a ton over the next several [01:02:30] months this year.
Tom R: Now, it sounds like everyone but one guy had just floating lines. Is that true?
JD: That's true. Yeah. One guy, my little brother, was the only one that was prepared for this trip. And he mostly had brought streamers to fish. But he had [01:03:00] a few different things. But yeah, he was the only one with a sink tip rig, and he was throwing a yellow game- hanger, and he was absolutely killing the fish those two days, just nobody was even getting close.
Tom R: Well, there's a good lesson there. You know, it's often, I think particularly with smallmouth, not the fly, but where you're fishing them [01:03:30] and how you're retrieving them. And I don't know, was he using any special retrieve?
JD: We found a run that was pretty quick-moving water, and he was catching most of the fish on the drift right before he was gonna recast at the very end of this pool. It was basically [01:04:00] like, the water made kind of like, I don't know, a channel, and they were hiding underneath the rock on the other side. And yeah, he was just able to get it down like 2 to 3 feet and right before you recast, boom, they'd hit it every time.
Tom R: Well, that sink tip line was probably at its deepest too toward the end of the swing, so that might have made a difference.
JD: Yeah, yeah. Right. Exactly.
Tom R: Yeah. So next time you'd take a sink tip, wouldn't you?
JD: [01:04:30] Yeah, yeah. And bring him with me too.
Tom R: With all of his yellow game changers.
JD: Exactly.
Tom R: That's a great fly. That game changer, boy, is a killer fly. Absolutely. So somebody starting out river smallmouth fishing, what rod, do you think, you know, what length and line size is best [01:05:00] for that?
JD: Well, I don't know what line size. I just bought a 7 weight to start using for this next year. I've always fished fresh water stuff with a 6 weight. My dad gave me...when I graduated college, he gave me an [01:05:30] Orvis Helios with a Hydros reel, and that was like my graduation gift. And here you go, get after it. And I fished that 6 weight for everything. And I've managed to do...it worked for everything. Again, you know, now that I've learned a lot more, it's like, I definitely want to have a 7 weight with me this summer when I go out, this spring. [01:06:00] But that's something you'd have to speak to on fly line size. I don't know...That's kind of where my expertise starts to dwindle.
Tom R: That's okay. Yeah, 6 or 7 is what most people would recommend for most smallmouth rivers. So I think that's fair, either one probably work pretty well. I think the 7 weight will help throw a [01:06:30] sink tip a little bit more. And, you know, it'll help push those bigger flies if you are fishing...like, game changers are not easy to cast, and 7 weight would push that bigger, bulkier fly a little bit better than a 6.
JD: Yeah.
Tom R: So that smallmouth trip, looks like you guys had a ball on that trip. But you could tell from the filming and, you know, you and I talking that things weren't great. Water was too cold, water was a [01:07:00] little high. You know, what do you do to make a trip that you know is gonna be pretty slow more enjoyable?
JD: Yeah. That's a good question. I mean, I think for us it was all just the camaraderie on the trip. I mean, we had a group of like five, six guys. We were all crammed into canoes. That was something that Scotty really pressed [01:07:30] that he wanted to try, was to attempt to do the 12 miles on the Kings in canoes. And so that made for its own fun because the water, the first day, was pretty moving. And so in a canoe with all your stuff hitting a little rapid is enough to kinda tighten things up a little bit [01:08:00] and make you nervous.
So I don't know. I keep going back to that, but I think more than anything, I just love to be...If I'm gonna go fish, you know, I'm the music guy. I'm the entertainment. I like to have a good time. And it always makes it more enjoyable when I have my buddies and friends on the water with me. So that trip could not have gone better [01:08:30] as far as good times that were had. Fishing, not great. There's a lot of things that we've already talked about, like that when we go back, that we're gonna change, and even to just how we...like transportation, everything we want to adjust and kind of like go about the trip a little bit differently. But for that moment, that time, we made the best of it. We did what we could and it was awesome.
Tom R: Yeah. I think [01:09:00] a first trip, you know, anytime is an exploration and that's part of the excitement is, you know, being prepared for these things that you didn't expect and learning about making the next trip better.
JD: Yeah. That's right. Yeah. There only one guy that on the crew that had been on this river before. And so, yeah, it was a lot of, [01:09:30] like you said, exploring and it made for...I think it made it more enjoyable.
Tom R: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. The next time might be more productive, but maybe it won't be as much fun.
JD: That's right.
Tom R: You'll catch too many fish.
JD: Yeah. That's not the worst problem though.
Tom R: No, it's not. No. I seldom have that problem.
JD: Yeah. [01:10:00] Yeah. I'll make sure to call you the next day if we have that problem.
Tom R: And I'll be on a plane to come down. Well, JD, that was great. And, you know, I wanna thank you for taking the time to share your experiences with us and how music and fly fishing interact and what you get out of it. And, you know, believe it or not, there's some people [01:10:30] that listen to this podcast that haven't even tried fly fishing yet. So I think that your thoughts are gonna maybe convince more people to give it a try, and not necessarily for trout, but for something else.
JD: Yeah. I mean, I hope so. I appreciate you taking the time and letting me come on. And I mean, that's how I got my start was just our family would go to Colorado one week [01:11:00] outta the year for vacation, and my dad would teach me to fly fish for trout, but that's one week outta the year. We would come home and you've got the whole rest of the summer in Arkansas to fish. And so you gotta tie on different flies. You gotta fish differently and learn to catch the fish that are in your backyard, and you can do it with a fly rod. So I do not claim to be [01:11:30] an expert in any stretch of the imagination. I still have so much to learn. Just in the last year, I've picked up so much by just hanging out with guys that are better fishermen than me. And it's amazing what I've been able to pick up. So I can't wait for whatever trips we go on this year or whatever new things I learn, it's gonna be a lot of fun.
Tom R: Well, you know, I could say the same for my life. I learned lots of new stuff [01:12:00] every year and there's always new adventures close to home or further away. You got any exciting fishing trips lined up or anything you're planning on doing?
JD: Well, our family will go back to Colorado again this year like we have for my whole life, and we'll do a little bit of fishing. But [01:12:30] Scotty and I and a few other guys in the outdoor scene are planning a trip right now. We don't know what we want to do. We've thought about maybe going up to Canada. I don't know. There's endless possibilities. He kinda wants to go up towards Maine. That could be really fun. That's not too far from your neck of the woods. [01:13:00]
Tom R: No, no.
JD: So maybe we just need to come up and see you.
Tom R: I'm up for that.
JD: [crosstalk 01:13:06.864] what we need to do.
Tom R: I'm up for that. I can't show you many big trout in my neighborhood, but I can show you a lot of them, and some bass and some carp and some pike.
JD: There you go. Well, anything's better than what we had on our trip last year.
Tom R: Well, come in May or June then, or even July. [01:13:30] All right, JD. And, you know, people can, I'm sure, find your music on Spotify as I did, but I would urge them to to also buy CDs and vinyl and go to your shows, because I know you don't make much on streaming. And I always try to support musicians by either seeing 'em in person or buying their records. Do you have...
JD: I appreciate it. [01:14:00]
Tom R: What's your latest album? What's that latest album?
JD: It's called "Long Way From Home."
Tom R: "Long Way From Home." Yeah.
JD: And yeah, it's just basically about my journey of leaving Arkansas to go try out Nashville. And I ended up losing my job during the pandemic and worked for a landscape company. And it was just basically two years of me riding in a truck with Nico, Jose, and Alfredo [01:14:30] all around Nashville. And I would just sit in the back of the truck and write songs. And so that album is a really special one. It kind of is a coming of age. I think folks will like that. But the new one, "Blue Sky Sundays" is my second album, comes out February 28th.
Tom R: Oh, cool.
JD: Yeah. And that'll be ready for pre-order on all my...wherever you look for my stuff under JD Clayton Official. [01:15:00]
Tom R: Okay. People can get these on your website, right?
JD: That's right.
Tom R: Are you on Songkick too?
JD: Yes.
Tom R: Okay. So either one of those places to get a physical piece of your music instead of just streaming it through the ether.
JD: Yes, sir.
Tom R: Okay. Well, why don't we leave people with a song then, JD, to get 'em a little bit more [01:15:30] in the mood, and we'll leave you all with a with a song from JD Clayton.
JD: All right. Sounds good.
Tom R: All right.
JD: Thanks, Tom.
Tom R: Thanks, JD.
Early one Sunday morning
I heard a word from the preacher man
He said, "Be sweeter to your mamas
And love your [01:16:00] neighbor like you know you can
'Cause there's a place I know called Heaven
Someday you may wanna go
They never get tired or sick up there
And their streets are made of gold"
I said, "Well, preacher
See, I'm the son of a Southern man
Raised up good in the yellow sunshine
Working hard in the mud and the sand
And I do [01:16:30] believe in the fella upstairs
And I will 'til I'm gray and old
But to tell you the truth, I'm a little concerned
About these streets made of gold"
Yeah, I have just one simple request in mind
And reverend, if you would ever be so kind as to send
A message up there on my behalf, it ain't [01:17:00] much to ask
It reads, "Good God almighty, I beg you please, just before I'm dead
Turn them streets of gold to dirt roads of red"
Now there are very few things in this life that turn me up, turn me on
I sure love the touch of a good-looking woman, smell of a [01:17:30] fresh-cut lawn
And I'm a tax-paying citizen, damn good fisherman
Lord knows I'd never impose
But on that day when I make it to Heaven
I'm gonna walk down a red dirt road.
Yeah, I have just one simple request in mind
And reverend, if you would ever be so kind as to send
A message up there on [01:18:00] my behalf, it ain't much to ask
It reads, "Good God almighty, I beg you please, just before I'm dead
Turn them streets of gold to dirt roads of red"
Ah, come on now with it [01:18:30]
Yeah, I have just one simple request in mind
And reverend, if you would ever be so kind as to send
A message up there on my [01:19:00] behalf, it ain't much to ask
It reads, "Good God almighty, I beg you please, just before I'm dead
Turn them streets of gold to dirt roads of red"
Turn them streets of gold
To dirt roads of red [01:19:30]
Man: Thanks for listening to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment, send it to us at