Secrets of an Award-Winning Guide, with Antoine Bissieux
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer, and my guest this week is Antoine Bissieux, also known as the French Fly Fisherman and winner of the 2025 Orvis-endorsed Guide of the Year. [00:00:30] And what we're gonna talk about today is some techniques that Antoine uses that he has learned from the French competitive fly anglers, who are some of the best in the world, that he's modified himself, most notably a dry dropper technique that he uses that he says just works like magic. And I can't wait to see how he does this. I'm gonna fish with Antoine sometime this summer. [00:01:00] He also talks about whether to make a plan for the day or whether to let the river tell you what to do and lots of other cool stuff. So, I hope you enjoy the podcast. I always enjoy talking to Antoine and I think you'll learn quite a bit and you'll get some new ideas for new stuff to try on the water the next time you go out.
But first, let's answer a few questions. The Fly Box is where you ask me questions, or you [00:01:30] maybe share a tip with listeners, and I try to answer your questions and share your tip. And you can send me a question, too. You can send it to
And the first question in the Fly Box this week is from Noah. "First of all, I wanna thank you for everything you do for the fly-fishing community. Your podcasts have been invaluable in helping me on my fly-fishing journey. I have a couple of questions about fly rods and fly line. I've been fishing for about a year now, and the rod I'm using was [00:02:30] gifted to me. It is an old beginner rod that is listed as a 3/4. However, I have no idea what weight line is on the reel. The line is unmarked. Everything I've read online says the only way to find out is to weigh the line. Is that the only option, or are there easier ways to tell?
The second question is about fly rods. I plan on adding a 9-foot 6-weight clear water to be able to cast streamers and target some bass as well. I would also like to upgrade my current 3/4 weight. However, [00:03:00] I am unsure if I should get a 3-weight or a 4-weight rod. After researching it online, it seems like it comes down to personal preference. Some people seem to love a 3-weight, while others consider it more niche and prefer a 4-weight. I typically fish small to medium streams 10 to 40 feet across, and I usually fish a dry dropper setup. How much difference is there between a 3 and a 4-weight? Which rod do you think would be the best?"
So, Noah, there is no [00:03:30] real way of finding out exactly which line you have on that reel other than to weigh it. But, you know, you should be able to maybe take it to a fly shop or an Orvis store and cast it on some rods that are weighted for a 3-weight and weighted for a 4-weight and see which one it works best on. And, you know, exactly what it is doesn't really matter. If it works on the rod, then it's [00:04:00] fine. But other than that, yeah, you've got to weigh the first 30 to 35 feet and then convert that to grains and then look that up online to find out exactly what fly line it is, but I wouldn't really worry too much about it. If it casts well on the rod, then just go ahead and use it.
Regarding your rod question, I think I would go toward a 4-weight. Now, I [00:04:30] fish small streams with a 3-weight, but I fish really small streams. None of them are anywhere near 40 feet across. And I'm not casting that far, and I do fish a dry dropper. But if you might be casting 20 or 30 feet with a dry dropper, then I think you're gonna be happier with a 4-weight. The 3-weight line might just have a little trouble. Depending on what size your dry fly and your dropper are, the 3-weight might have a little trouble pushing that dry [00:05:00] dropper rig, whereas a 4-weight is gonna do a little bit better job for you. Now, what you sacrifice going to a 4-weight is just a slight amount of delicacy and maybe more fun with smaller fish because a 3-weight is gonna bend more with a small fish. I think a 4-weight is what you want for what you described.
Rip: Hi, Tom. This is Rip Woodin in Rocky Mount, North Carolina. And I've got a question and a suggestion. [00:05:30] Each spring, our local golf course with its fairways and bass ponds are invaded by flocks of Canada geese. They eat a lot of grass and leave a lot of fertilizer, but they also leave a lot of wing feathers. And I wondered if these wing feathers are what would make good goose biots, and is it very much trouble to do it, or is it just not worth the time and the effort to try to split them and then [00:06:00] dye them? Anyway, I also would be curious if it is, how would you go about making these biots?
My suggestion is that Bill from California several months ago wanted to know how to go about selecting flies from the myriad of flies in bins and shops. And I remember hearing a seminar at the fly-fishing show, and the presenter talked about the five types of [00:06:30] flies that there are, you know, caddis, mayflies, stoneflies, terrestrials, and streamers. And of course, the flies have nymphs, emergers, and duns as well. I just wondered if it would be helpful if you and one of the Tims had a podcast where you talked about the generics of each of those that would fill a good Fly Box, and then people could go off afterwards and know they're covered [00:07:00] and then pick up whatever color they might use on a particular stream. Anyway, thanks a lot. Bye.
Tom: Well, Rip, yeah, you know, it's a little iffy about picking up feathers and using them because technically it could be illegal, but I think it's only illegal for songbirds and protected birds, and Canada geese are hunted, and [00:07:30] nobody's gonna arrest you for picking them up. So, I wouldn't worry about whether it's legal or not. You're gonna be fine. And, you know, you can just use those biots directly from the goose quills. What you wanna do is look for the longest primary feathers. So, the primary feathers are the long, pointy ones. And you wanna look for the biggest, longest primary feathers that you see scattered there on the golf course and [00:08:00] take them from the short side, the short side of the quill. You can use them from the long side too for smaller flies, but for, you know, wider biot, you wanna go with the shorter side. It's gonna give you a little bit shorter but wider biot.
And, you know, you can just use them as they come from the quill. You don't need to do anything special with them. You can always color them with a permanent marker, you know, just tie...because the [00:08:30] quill from a natural gray goose is gonna be fairly light colored, almost white, the quill itself, the biot quill, and it'll have those little fuzzies on it, but those kind of add a nice kind of gill segment to nymphs that you tie them on. And then you can just color them with a permanent marker if you want. If you want to get into dyeing them, that's a little bit more difficult, but generally, using kind of standard household [00:09:00] clothing dyes and cleaning the feathers first, degreasing them, cleaning them in soap and water, rinsing them, drying them, putting a little vinegar in your dye bath, and then dyeing them there should be able to get a color. But again, I think the easier way to go is just use them as is and then color them with a permanent marker. In fact, a cool thing to do would be to take a few different markers with you when you go fishing, [00:09:30] and you can modify those flies on the stream according to what color you want to fish that day.
Regarding filling a fly box, yeah, we could do something like that. I have to think about it a little bit. But, you know, the best thing to do, really, is just to go into a fly shop and ask what's working. And every time you go, ask what's working, and gradually you're gonna fill your fly box with stuff that [00:10:00] works. And, you know, yeah, you do need some generic mayflies and caddis flies. But if you go with kind of neutral-colored tan or gray caddis imitations and [inaudible 00:10:15.767] in various sizes, you're going to be able to match a lot of the mayflies and caddis flies that are out there. But we'll think about doing that podcast. Here's an email from...[00:10:30] Whoop, I didn't get the name. I think it was Tom.
"Hey, Tom. I have a question for the podcast, but not on any product or technique. I'm curious what your thoughts are around using one of those quick-release tools for removing hooks. At first, I thought they were kind of gimmicky, but I really strived to handle and release ethically and recently bought one to give it a shot and was very surprised at how well they work and how smooth and quick it is. I remove the hook while keeping the fish in the net and release, and it works beautifully. It made me think, [00:11:00] What are Tom's thoughts and opinions on them?"
Yeah, I really like those tools. Some of them are just a loop of wire that works really, really well. Some of them, like the catch and release, are a little bit more complicated. And it does take a little bit of practice to learn how to use them. One of the things that I did when I first played around with these was to go to a pond and catch a bunch of sunfish, small sunfish on a [00:11:30] fly, and practice using the tool before I went to a fish that is a little bit more delicate, like a trout, and practiced taking the hooks out. So they do take a little bit of practice, but they work extremely well. And in my opinion, they work a lot better than forceps. I've ruined more flies and spent too much time trying to take a hook out of a fish with forceps. And these quick-release tools are great tools. So I would urge anyone that wants to release [00:12:00] your catch quickly and easily and without harm to use one of the catch-and-release tools.
Here's an email from Jim from Buffalo. "As always, thank you for what you and Orvis do for fly fishing. Your passion and knowledge constantly help to demystify fly fishing for me and millions of others. When I saw the episode this week on basic carp fishing, I was excited to dive in and absorb what I could. I have access to a small man-made lake that has large number of carp. It has [00:12:30] become a mission of sorts to target and land one. I was surprised you didn't bring up a behavior that I witness regularly and try to take advantage of in my fishing. I regularly watch these carps surface and do what I can only describe as glooping, opening up their mouths, taking a big gulp of whatever happens to be on the surface. It can be pretty fun to watch when you have half a dozen all doing it in the same area simultaneously. In these cases, I'll try to anticipate and put a dry fly or other [00:13:00] topwater pattern where I think they're coming up. I've hooked into a couple using this method, but they usually come unbuttoned or break me off. Perhaps a larger hook fly. Have you seen this behavior? Would love some input. I'm also glad you touched on gear towards the end. I'm thinking next time I'll probably pull out my 8-weight with a size 2 leader. Again, thank you for being a resource and all the years of knowledge that you and Orvis provide."
Well, Jim, yeah, we should have mentioned that. [00:13:30] And it's funny because carp do this in certain waters and they don't do it in others. I fish a couple of rivers for carp that are not too far from my house. And in one river, they do it a lot, particularly with cottonwood seeds. And in the other river, I've never seen them do it. So, it varies with the body of water. And a lot of people call this "clooping," but I guess "glooping" is just as good. And, yeah, you've done it the right [00:14:00] way. Throw your fly in front of the feeding carp, or try to figure out which direction they're going and just let it sit there. Don't move it. Just let it sit there and keep your eye on your fly and wait till it disappears. It's really easy. If you can't figure out where your fly is to set the hook and not have the carp eat it and spook the fish. So, you wanna use a fly that you can see somehow with a post or something like [00:14:30] that on it or a high wing, and then wait until you see that fly disappear before you set the hook. But you probably know that. Anyway, yeah, it's a common behavior with carp. It's really cool to see. I wish they did it in more waters because catching a carp on a dry fly like that is a lot of fun.
Here's an email from Ilya. "Love the podcast. Long-time listener, first time commenter. I did have a question about tippet rings. So, I'm gonna disclose that I've [00:15:00] been rigging up a tippet ring on all my rods because it's so much easier than tying a leader-to-tippet connection in the field, and I trust it more. I told a fly shop this earlier in the year and he looked at me like I was crazy and told me I would break off a fish. I've never had a break at the tippet ring and was curious about whether it'd be more likely to break there or at the eye of the hook. What should I look out for if I continue fishing this way?"
Well, Ilya, I don't know why that fly shop employee told [00:15:30] you that because I think it's actually a stronger connection. Use a clinch knot on both sides of the tippet ring or whatever knot you prefer for tying on a fly, whether or not you trust, the Double Davy, or the Triple Davy, or the Duncan Loop, or whichever one you like. And it's a really good way of joining two vastly different diameters of monofilament. It's a really good way to join nylon to [00:16:00] fluorocarbon because they don't always play well together. Although if you tie a good knot, it'll hold. But I don't see any reason to stop doing what you're doing. I think it's a very strong connection and it's a smart way to do it.
Here's an email from Mitch. "During the Fly Box on the episode with Ivan Tatin [SP], a local couple from Asheville was asking about how long it would take our local rivers and streams to heal from the disastrous flooding of Hurricane Helene. As a full-time fishing guide in [00:16:30] the area, I will try to keep my answer as short and sweet as possible and try to offer some insight. I will say that, even though some of the rivers have been changed drastically for, hopefully, long into the foreseeable future, that a lot of our wild trout populations and smallmouth bass populations have weathered the storm. Guide services in the area from the Cherokee Reservation to Boone have all been running successful wade and float trips all season long. The North Carolina Wildlife Resources [00:17:00] Commission has also done a fine job so far this season of stocking delayed harvest and hatchery-supported streams.
There are a couple of streams that I did notice take a considerable population hit that I would prefer not to mention on air, but I found that the vast majority of our streams are fine, even though we are in the process of relearning the riverbed on a couple of them. Although practically I agree with your original reply to the local listener that wrote in [00:17:30] to you, I would caution now, heading into summer, that although the headwaters of a lot of these streams may fish well, to be cautious of overpressuring these areas, especially those containing native brook trout or just wild trout in general. Now more than ever we have to respect our western North Carolina fisheries and handle them properly as nature is trying to heal itself. The more we respect the resource, the quicker they will heal. Asheville is open for business and our [00:18:00] local guide community in western North Carolina and East Tennessee welcomes visitors and locals with enthusiasm."
Well, thank you, Mitch. And yeah, you know, guides take a real hit after hurricanes. Often people are afraid to go there, and sometimes the fishing doesn't suffer that much at all. Sometimes it suffers, but those local communities need your dollars, need you to go and visit them so that they can get back on their feet. And [00:18:30] so, if you're planning on visiting Western North Carolina, I wouldn't hesitate to do it, and make sure you spend a lot of money with guides and fly shops and restaurants and hotels.
Here's one from Brian from Fresno, California. "I got a fly line question. Last year I saved up my pennies and bought a nice Orvis Pro fly line. Sometime in the last 12 months I put a little nick in the line, probably from a bad tangle that dug into my line. It is about 12 inches from the tip. Would it be okay to cut off [00:19:00] that foot on the front end of the fly line and put it in a loop? Or would that do serious damage and not work? I guess the alternative is to buy a fly line, and I'm not quite ready to do that yet. How would it perform going forward?"
So, Brian, there is a level section on the front of all fly lines. It gives them a little bit of delicacy on the end. So, cutting a foot off, your fly line is going to land a little harder, but it will [00:19:30] probably be fine. What I would recommend instead of putting a new loop in the front of the fly line, because that's going to add a little of mass to the end of the fly line, I would attach a new piece of monofilament butt section-sized monofilament with a nail knot. I think it's gonna be a little bit cleaner in this case, especially since you're gonna have more mass at the tip of your fly line, a little bit [00:20:00] more mass. And so, I put a nail knot in, and then I put a couple of feet of, you know, something like 0.21 or 0.23 monofilament, and then either put a loop in that or blood knot it to your leader. That extra piece of monofilament at the end will kind of slow that down, a little more air resistance at the end, and kind of negate the fact that you've lost that front section [00:20:30] of it.
So, you're right that once you get a nick on a fly line, there's really no way to repair it. So, it's something you have to be really careful about. And one of the ways that I find that puts a nick in them, which is really easy to do, is if you somehow loop a fine tippet around your fly line and then you put some pressure on it, you yank on it, or you try to untie it and you put pressure on it, that'll cut right through the coating in the [00:21:00] fly line. So you gotta be careful with that, but not repairable. I would use that fly line and see how it casts. I think it's gonna cast okay if you put a little heavy mono in front of it.
Here's one from Gabe from Lehi, Utah. "Recently I found Cheech's fly tank video for the stone flopper and decided to tie a few up. I really enjoyed tying the pattern and felt I did a great job recreating the pattern with proportions similar to the fly [00:21:30] Cheech was tying. This past weekend I was able to put this pattern to the test. I was quickly puzzled since it landed upside down about half the time. I know that there are multiple variables, including fly construction, but I would imagine that any large foam fly would naturally be heavier on top in comparison to the hook due to how much foam is being used. Would a non-slip loop knot instead of a clinch knot help with this problem? What are some tips and tricks to keep this from happening? I would appreciate your thoughts and opinions on this [00:22:00] matter."
Well, Gabe, there's a couple of things you can do. One is to use a heavier hook. You know, if you're tying this fly in a long-shank dry fly hook or something, don't be afraid to use a 3x long nymph hook or something. The heavier hook will help it land right side up because you got more mass underneath the fly that the bend and the point of the hook are gonna help right it. The other thing to do [00:22:30] is make sure that you have enough wing on that fly because the wing acts like a parachute and will right the fly in the air. So, you know, if you're a little sparse on your wing, yeah, that could land upside down. But putting a bigger, heavier wing on it will help it. I'm not sure how much a non-slip loop knot instead of a clinch knot helps with this problem because I never use loop knots with dry [00:23:00] flies ever. I don't like them for dry flies. You can try it and see how it works. Try it with one of those flies you tied that land upside down. But I think a heavier hook and maybe not so much foam, maybe a little bit finer or thinner diameter foam on top, and then make sure you have a big enough wing. And that should hopefully [00:23:30] solve the problem.
Here's one from Chase from New York. "Thanks for all the insight and stories you share in the podcast. I had a question I was hoping you could help with. I've been trying to target large brown trout in slow, clear pools, especially those stretches where the water meanders gently and you can see right to the bottom. I love the challenge, but often I feel like I'm blowing my chances before the fly even lands. Specifically, I'm wondering, when you're trying to be stealthy with streamers in water like that, what would you keep in mind? [00:24:00] How do you approach the pool? What kind of streamer presentation gives you the best shot without spooking the fish? Do you approach from downstream or try to avoid entering the water altogether? Do I need a longer leader to prevent fly line from spooking them? Any advice or thoughts would be hugely appreciated. Thanks again for all you do for the fly fishing community. It makes a difference."
Well, Chase, first of all, one of the suggestions I might have is if the water's that clear and maybe you can see the fish, [00:24:30] how about trying a nymph instead of a streamer? I just recently did a video that you can find on the Orvis Learning Center or on YouTube called Naked Nymphing, and this is not using a strike indicator, not using a dry dropper, but just using a nymph on the end of your leader and observing the behavior of the fish or observing the tip of your floating line. That's gonna disturb the water less than [00:25:00] running a streamer through there. So that would be my first suggestion. If you wanna stick with a streamer in clear, low water like that, keep them small and not too much weight if you can help it. And you could try a tight line technique with the streamer by fishing it with a euro nymphing technique or a longer leader.
Yeah, I think you've answered your own question, really. A [00:25:30] longer leader is gonna help. A longer tippet on the leader will also help that fly sink a little bit better. And I would definitely...unless you can really sneak up on them, I would definitely approach them downstream or not get in the water if you can help it. But, you know, if you don't get in the water, try to keep your profile low so that the fish don't spot you. So those are some things you can try. It's a difficult situation, and it's [00:26:00] gonna take some strategy to figure these fish out because that's not an easy type of water to fish with any kind of fly.
Here's one from Austin. "Big fan of the show. I really appreciate all you do for the fly fishing community. I have a couple of questions I hope you can help with. I was fishing a new section of stream and wasn't finding any fish until I spotted a huge brown trout hanging out under a tree, gulping bugs off the surface. Naturally, I got excited and started slowly working my way into position to make a [00:26:30] cast. The problem was the fish was directly beneath a tree limb that was dipping into the water, making it nearly impossible to drift anything through without getting snagged. What would you suggest in a situation like that? Is there an obvious tactic I'm missing, or is it best to try floating something just outside the cover and hope the fish sees it?
That leads to my second question. After exhausting my dry fly options for where I could throw them, I decided to drift a streamer toward the fish and strip it back quickly to [00:27:00] avoid snagging. Unfortunately, I did get snagged and the fish definitely noticed it. It bolted upstream right past me, and I couldn't shake the feeling that it was keeping an eye on me. Oddly enough, it kept returning to its spot under the tree and resumed feeding, but every few minutes it would come back out and check on me. Is that kind of behavior common? In the past, when I spooked a fish, it was gone for good. This one seemed more curious? Anyway, thanks for the podcast. Looking forward to hearing your [00:27:30] thoughts."
Okay. So, Austin, first of all, yeah, depending on how far underwater that branch is hanging, you might try a nymph to that fish and getting above the snag or getting above the trailing branch and letting the nymph drift under the branch or a soft tackle or a wet fly, you know, something [00:28:00] that isn't going to get caught in that branch. The other option is to cast off to the side of the fish or sometimes even on the tail of the fish. You know, there's a strategy that people use, particularly with ants and beetles and hoppers, to kind of throw it on the tail of the fish. The fish hears the fly landing. And if it doesn't spook, sometimes it'll wheel around and eat it or off to the side of the fish. So, you know, I'm thinking [00:28:30] maybe a beetle, something that splats a little bit on the water, and throw it off to the side. Fish rarely pass up beetles, even when they're feeding on mayflies or caddis flies. So, you can try plopping a beetle next to the fish or try getting above it and throwing a nymph. Those are two of my suggestions.
And then as far as the behavior of that fish, you know, fish are not [00:29:00] robots. They're not automatons. They're not robots. And they do have different personalities. And every fish is maybe gonna be a little bit different than the next one. So, you know, if you're spooking a lot of fish, sometimes you'll find that one fish that doesn't spook as easily. This fish, I suspect there was a lot of food on the water. And, you know, if there's a lot of food on the water and the [00:29:30] fish get pressured quite a bit. So, they're used to having people throw flies at them. They got to eat sometime. And, you know, if there's a lot of pressure on the water, often they'll spook a little bit, but they'll come back and feed because they got to eat when the food is available. So, I suspect that there was a lot of food there and that fish kind of threw caution to the wind because it needed to get those calories into them while it could. And so, it just kept on feeding. So, it'll happen. [00:30:00] You're right. Usually, they spook when you snag a streamer above them or jerk a branch on top of them. But I've seen fish in the same situation where if there's a lot of food on the water, they'll come back and continue to feed.
Here's one from Eddie from Massachusetts. "I'm a fly fishing novice entering my fifth year of fly fishing. I discovered by accident an efficient way to dry waders and boots after a day on the river. After a day of fishing, I [00:30:30] would normally place my gear on the deck and have it dry in the sun. One weekend I fished in the rain, and upon my return, I placed my waders and boots in my basement. I run a dehumidifier in the warmer months, and the dehumidifier took all the moisture from the boots and waders in a few short hours. If you have a dehumidifier, you can use it to dry your gear.
Now, my question. I was reading an online fly fishing magazine, and this particular author was discussing rigs for double nymph rig. His recommendation was to tie two pieces of [00:31:00] tippet to the leader using a blood knot. One shorter piece and a longer piece and then you place your desired flies on each piece of tippet. His reasoning is that it presents a more natural presentation than tying flies to each other. In my short time in fly fishing, I have always rigged a double nymph by tying the bottom fly to the bend of the hook or the eye of the hook. Have you ever rigged a double nymph as described by the author of the article? Are there any advantages? Thanks for taking the time to read this and all you do for [00:31:30] anglers."
So, Eddie, yeah, that's a great idea with the dehumidifier. What I personally use is some, a while ago, a manufacturer sent me a boot dryer called the Hedgehog. And it's a fantastic boot dryer. And this thing will dry a pair of wading boots in, like, an hour. And it has a couple of tubes for putting inside waders to dry [00:32:00] the inside of them. And then it has these hooks where you can hang the boots on them, and the temperature is adjustable, and you can set a timer on it and also has an ionizer for deodorizing shoes. I don't know how well the ionizer works, but this Hedgehog dryer is a terrific boot dryer and would work, but, you know, it'll be an even shorter time than your dehumidifier, but of course you're gonna have to buy the boot dryer. [00:32:30] So, either way works quite well.
Regarding that way of rigging nymphs, yeah, a lot of people rig nymphs on separate droppers instead of tying to the bend of the hook. And it offers some advantages. I think the upper fly, or both flies tend to behave a little bit more naturally in the current and also prevents you from foul hooking fish. If those flies are further apart, as they would when you tie one [00:33:00] on the end of a piece of tippet above the lower fly, you're much less likely to foul hook fish. And it's natural. It just takes a little bit longer to do. But if I have time, I'm not in a real hurry, I will always rig my nymphs this way And I haven't heard of using both sides of a blood knot. I've heard of using the lower end of a surgeon's knot and also using one [00:33:30] side of a blood knot and then using the standing part of the tippet to tie the fly on. But that other method may work as well. But, yeah, it's a good way to do it. And if you can, if you have the time and you don't mind tying extra knots, it works quite well.
Here's one from Sean from Grand Rapids, Michigan. "I have a trip planned for vacation with my parents to the Eastern Shore of Maryland and I was thinking of [00:34:00] bringing a rod with me for the odd chance I can sneak away for a bit to fish. I'm having trouble figuring out which route I should take. I currently have a 9-foot 5-weight and a 9-foot 8-weight, but unfortunately the 8-weight is a two-piece, likely the wrong choice for air travel. I am considering purchasing a new rod that will expand my connection, possibly a 9-foot 9-weight four-piece with an intermediate line. What do you think? Could that rod be used for steelhead we have here in West Michigan? Looking forward to your thoughts. [00:34:30] Lastly, thank you for all that you do as the industry's finest spokesman."
Well, thank you, Sean. And yeah, 9-foot 9-weight is my go-to rod on the East Coast. You know, sometimes you're going to be fishing a bigger fly, particularly for striped bass and bluefish. Sometimes you're gonna have a lot of wind and you're gonna struggle less with a 9-foot 9-weight. It's gonna be easier to cast. And, [00:35:00] yeah, again, that would be my go-to rod if I was gonna fish anywhere in salt water on the East Coast. So I think that's a great idea. And, yeah, it can absolutely be used for steelhead there in Michigan, particularly in the smaller rivers. And a lot of people use two-handed rods for the bigger rivers, but a 9-foot 9-weight is just fine for steelhead fishing as well.
Jim: Hi, Tom. It's Jim in the Catskills. Hey, I'm a first-time [00:35:30] caller, a long-time listener. I'm wondering about rusty hooks, rust on hooks, rust on the eyes of flies, and especially talking about saltwater flies. If there's just a little bit of rust on the shank, you know, what do you do to remove it? I've seen all kinds of different ideas online, and I'm wondering what you might do and if it's even worth trying to salvage a hook. Even if there's just a little bit of what [00:36:00] seems like superficial rust, is it already compromised? Thanks very much. Hope to hear from you soon. Love the podcast, of course, and everything you do for us. Thanks.
Tom: Well, Jim, I'll tell you a little story. I was in the Bahamas once and fishing with a guest, and I know him pretty well, and he's a good guy, but he got pretty mad at me because he asked me for a fly. And I picked a [00:36:30] bonefish fly out of my fly box. Now, I've been tying bonefish flies a long time. Some of the bonefish flies in my box are probably, like, 30 or 40 years old, and it had a little rust on it. And I said, "Ah, that's just superficial rust. It'll be fine." And it was the fly pattern I thought would work pretty well. So, I gave him the fly. He hooked a big bonefish, and you know what's coming, the hook broke. So, I don't trust them. If I see any [00:37:00] superficial rust on a hook, you don't know what's going on inside that hook. And honestly, I wouldn't risk it unless you're...you know, if you're just fishing for small schoolie stripers or something like that and you don't care, that's fine. But flies are cheap, and you don't wanna lose the fish of a lifetime to a hook that breaks. So, I wouldn't use any [00:37:30] saltwater fly that's showing any rust at all.
Of course, the important thing is not to let them get rusty. So, make sure, if you have a bunch of wet saltwater flies, that you do two things. One is you rinse them off in fresh water first, because if you don't, they're gonna retain that salt water for a long, long time and almost never dry out. So, if you got wet saltwater flies, stick them [00:38:00] on a patch outside of your pack or whatever, a foam piece. When you get home or when you get back to the lodge, rinse them in fresh water and then let them dry completely. But yeah, I wouldn't use a rusty hook, sorry. All right. That is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Antoine about secrets he's learned from the French. Well, my guest this [00:38:30] week is Antoine Bissieux. How did I say that, Antoine? Was it good?
Antoine: Beautiful. [crosstalk 00:38:34.989]
Tom: And Antoine is known as the French Fly Fisherman. He actually guides out of Connecticut now, but Antoine was an instructor in our schools here in Manchester and is now an independent guide. And most importantly, the Orvis 2025 endorsed guide of [00:39:00] the year. Congratulations, Antoine. That's well deserved.
Antoine: Thank you, Tom.
Tom: That's a real honor, as you know, and I know that you deserve it because I fished with you, and I know what a great teacher you are and how much fun you are to be with on the water. And so, I'm really happy for you.
Antoine: Thank you.
Tom: Is there anybody you wanna thank for that award?
Antoine: [00:39:30] Yes, yes. So, Tom, this award is a great honor. It's not something you just get like this. I'd like to thank my clients because without them, it would not be possible, my peers around me that I see every day, that I deal with every day. And then Orvis because without Orvis, I would not be here today. This is something that, you know, [00:40:00] only brought me my current wife. I met her at Orvis. [inaudible 00:40:04.241] I mean, there are plenty of things happening with Orvis, you know.
Tom: I guess so.
Antoine: Yeah, it's just, like, little by little, it's just like Orvis invaded my life and I really took...I enjoy it drastically. So that's a good thing.
Tom: Oh, good.
Antoine: So, yeah. No, so thank everybody for that. So...
Tom: And you have paid a lot of attention to both the competition fishing and also developments in the French [00:40:30] fishing scene, and the French often win the international competitions, and they've developed some really interesting techniques, tight line techniques in particular. So, I thought we would talk about that today, what we've learned from the French.
Antoine: Yes, it's just the concept. A lot of people are very worried about the world of competition. They're like, "Oh yeah, [00:41:00] I'm not interested. This is not what I wanna do. I don't wanna compete, this and that." But now if you start to decorticate or if you start to analyze the world of competition, you realize very quickly that the people who win often are the people who are doing things differently than the guy next door. And so, they're innovating nonstop. They are changing, they're rewriting the game all [00:41:30] the time. And we'll talk about it today. And when I look, for example, at a river like the Farmington, it's the same thing. You know, it's a river under pressure. If you go and you fish like everybody else, you're going to end up with the same amount of fish than everybody else. And that's where we are. And that's what it is. And so, if you start to innovate and do things a little bit differently and think about fishing a little bit in a different way, then suddenly, you [00:42:00] improve your game drastically, and you're on top of what's happening. I mean, that really is what this is all about.
Tom: Yes. Absolutely. I totally agree with you because I am not at all interested in competitive fishing. I never have been. I've never entered a contest...
Antoine: Me neither.
Tom: ...other than charity contests. But I've also learned a lot that I apply to other areas of fishing from these competitive [00:42:30] methods. So...
Antoine: Yes. And a lot of the future of fly fishing depends on those people.
Tom: Yeah, it could. It could very well.
Antoine: It's very interesting. There are a lot of improvements that come from the world of competition.
Tom: Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, what are we gonna learn?
Antoine: So, what are we gonna learn? What do you want to...? Ask me questions. What do you wanna know about? I mean, you know me. What do you want me to talk about? We can stay here for two months and talk about one thing.
Tom: [00:43:00] We could. Let's talk about leaders and tippet because, on this podcast, Antoine, I get constant, constant, constant questions about leaders and about tippet. And so...
Antoine: Yes, I get the same.
Tom: ...you know, it's geeky, and it's, in my opinion, the most important aspect of fly fishing. More important than the fly or the rod or the reel or even the line is the leader. So it is...
Antoine: [00:43:30] Okay. So, the way I look at that leader and tippet is the first thing I look at is we have somewhere a nasty tendency to look at pound tests. You know, people ask you, "Oh, what is the pound test of your tippet?" And to be honest with you, I have no idea what a 5x pound test is. I don't know. And anyone in Europe, they have no clue what pound tests they have for the very simple reason, you do not pull a [00:44:00] cargo ship with a million-pound test chain. You use a hundred-thousand-pound test, stretchy material like a line, a nylon line that is going to give and so you won't break it. And so, we don't fish with a boomstick, we fish with a rod that absorbs shocks. And so, to me, my tippet and my leader, I want them to be stretchy, limpy, soft. I [00:44:30] don't want them stiff. Okay. So, those are the first approach.
And then the leader itself, we really talk about leader in this industry, and the leader is so critical. I mean, I've listened to some of your podcasts, and you mentioned this very well. Your leader can make your day or destroy it. So, I usually do a leader...I tie all my own leader. The first thing I do is I [00:45:00] try to attach my leader directly to my fly line to have a direct connection. So, I try to avoid the loop-to-loop connection, even though it's very easy to change your leader or to do this and that, and it's great, but it doesn't go through your guides easily. I'd rather have a smoother connection and a direct connection to my leader. If you have a loop at the end of your fly line, you attach your leader with just a clinch knot or something like this. And that should do the trick. But that you get a direct connection. And then I [00:45:30] start my leader with something in the diameter at around 0.5 millimeters. So here I'm gonna have to bear with you. I'm going to transfer this into pound test so you have a better idea.
Tom: Or a diameter of an inch would be best.
Antoine: So basically, 5.0 millimeters is going to be around 25-pound test.
Tom: Twenty-five...And what diameter would that be?
Antoine: That would be 0.20 of an inch...0.020.
Tom: [00:46:00] Okay. So, twenty-thousandths.
Antoine: Yes.
Tom: Okay. And just to clarify, so you tie your leader with a clinch knot directly to the permanent loop on the fly line?
Antoine: So, you can do that. That's the quick way to do it. What I do on my rod is I take a needle, I put a hole inside my fly. So, I cut my loop off. I put a hole into my fly line, and then I [00:46:30] get my line, my leader, to go through the fly line, out of the fly line, and then I make a knot.
Tom: So, you're using a needle nail knot, basically?
Antoine: Yes.
Tom: Okay, okay.
Antoine: Yeah. And that, to me, is nice to put a little touch of glue and, you know, everything is nice and neat. So anyway, so I go...My standard to make it very simple is I will do a full arm extension with 0.50 millimeter, which is 25 pound test. [00:47:00] Then I'll do half of that. So half a formula arm length of 0.4 millimeter.
Tom: What's the diameter in inches of that 0.4 millimeter?
Antoine: On inches it's 0.016.
Tom: 0.016, okay.
Antoine: Yep, and that's about 18 pound test. And that I will do half of that formula, and then I'm going to do another...Let me look at my spools here. [00:47:30] Here it is, at 0.35 millimeter, which is...it's around 11 pound test. No, 15 pound test, 12 pound test, something...whatever it is.
Tom: Diameter?
Antoine: Yeah, the diameter is going to be...I don't have the endometer in inch. It's been scratched off the spool. So in millimeter it's 0.30. But, you [00:48:00] know, just to think it you're going from 0.02 to 0.16. So, you're probably looking at 0.014. If it's not that, the liar is not far. Okay. And I cut it again by half and then I put my little one, which is 0.2 millimeter, which is 3x. And at that I attach a tippet ring.
Tom: And how long is [00:48:30] that 3x section?
Antoine: Every time I cut by half. So, I start with a four-arm length at 5.0, then half of a four-arm length at 0.4, half of that in 0.30 and half of that to 0.2. So, I mean, by the end my 0.20 is probably gonna be, like, 8 inch [inaudible 00:48:45.886].
Tom: Okay. Good.
Antoine. Okay. So, this, I finish with a tippet ring. And then that's my leader. And that leader, pretty much I can keep it for a couple of years. It's not going to go [00:49:00] anywhere. I attach tippet to it, and I can pick and choose. If I have a streamer, I put 3x. If I want to fish 8x, very delicately somewhere, I do. So, I have all that. You know, possibilities in front of me.
And this works for nymph fishing, dry fly fishing, everything?
Antoine: So, I do my dry dropper, my dry fly fishing, my streamer fishing with this. [00:49:30] I do wet fly fishing with this. The indicator is a little tricky because you have to put the end of the barber or the indicator, the stock indicator on the leader. So, you have to find a way to put it in so that you play with a rubber band. But, yeah, you can use it. It's very friendly. And it's very stretchy.
Tom: Now, this is contrary to what a lot of tight line anglers are doing [00:50:00] these days because a lot of them are using, you know, like, straight 4x, a very long, thin leader that...
Antoine: So, for Euro nymphing, I will not use that leader. For Euro nymphing, I'm gonna use a straight, as you say, monofilament that's very stretchy, that's 0.2 millimeters, and that's my biggest one, which is 3x. And my smallest one is around 6x. So, it comes down...
Tom: Okay. [00:50:30] So, you do use a long-level leader sometimes?
Antoine: Yes, yes. For Euro nymphing, that's all I use, except if I'm in fast-moving water, and then I'll use the other leader.
Tom: Okay. Got it.
Antoine: You know, if I lose, like, little pocket water where my drift is going to be straight upstream and I'm gonna drift towards me, maybe five feet, then I'm going to use a regular leader. But any kind of depth or long drift, I'm gonna use the monofilament. Then just a [00:51:00] straight, you know, it's level. It's all the same size.
Tom: How long do you make use of a leader when you go straight monofilament?
Antoine: So, I'm very much...The French are gonna be all pissed off at me. I am very much in the Spanish way of looking at things. So, I fish very long because I fish extremely thin. I mean, if I look at my fly box, my biggest fly size swells. I don't use mud flies. I don't use any of those junk flies that we have out [00:51:30] there. I'm kind of staying into the idea of the purest way of Euro nymphing. And I'm looking at this with something that are very, very light. So, I'm fishing 7, 8x. I'm fishing very, very small diameters. It's all about fitness. And there is...You know, we all look at the Euro nymphing, and it's not fly fishing, it's Euro nymphing. Let's put this clear. [00:52:00] But in Euro nymphing, when you get to those small diameter, there's an art to it. There is a drift, there is zones that you have to respect. There's different things you can do in different zones. I don't know if you were interested in talking about this, but this is kind of fascinating in a way.
Tom: Now, let me just back up a little bit on that leader because I like to be very specific on leaders because, again, people get confused. So, you have a long [00:52:30] piece of 4x, let's say, stretchy 4x tied to your fly line.
Antoine: Yes.
Tom: And how long is that?
Antoine: Thirty feet.
Tom: Thirty feet. And then you put a tippet ring on the end of that, and then...
Antoine: No, then I have a sighter.
Tom: Then you have a sighter, okay.
Antoine: Yeah. And my biggest one is going to be...Yeah, 3x is gonna be my biggest, the leader, 3x and the smallest one, [00:53:00] 6x. So, it really depends on where you fish. But yes, it's going to be straight. Then I have a sighter, the same diameter than my leader. Then my tippet ring.
Tom: Then your tippet ring. And then whatever tippet you're gonna use, 5x, 6x, 7x.
Antoine: And then anywhere from...I mean, like, early in the season when you have tons of stock fish, if you use 5x all day long, you don't have to worry about that. And then in May, you go switch to 6. And right now, we're switching to 7. And then we set 7. [00:53:30] We try to avoid 8, but sometimes you have to go 8. And then by September, you go back up a little bit, and then in October, you're back to big tippet, yeah.
Tom: Okay. And we should let people know that you are fishing a very difficult, pressured river, the Farmington, which is an extremely difficult [00:54:00] river because there's a lot of fishermen and the fish see a lot of flies. And so, you do need to be as stealthy and as fine and delicate as possible.
Antoine: Yes. Those fish are disturbed all the time. And that's where my conception of looking at the world of competition is very helpful because I can do things that nobody else does, which puts me in places where the fish are, number one, because they don't wanna be bothered. They don't stay where everybody is. [00:54:30] And then I can fish places that nobody else can fish in different ways. And that allows me to keep...And there's no secret. I mean, it's just...Whatever people tell me that I'm allowed to tell, I will tell it to everyone because there is no reason to hide anything because in six months, something new will come up.
Tom: Yeah. So...
Antoine: And I'll be doing that then.
Tom: So, give me an example of...You [00:55:00] said you fished different places. And this would be, very valuable for other people who fish pressured rivers, right? So, give me an example of what kind of water you would fish that most people don't fish.
Antoine: Okay. So, for example, you go to a pool, and you have...Okay, I almost wanna make a joke. Yeah, I'm not going to make a joke. Tom, stop me if I try to make jokes.
Tom: Okay.
Antoine: Because I'll [00:55:30] get myself in so much trouble all by myself...
Tom: No, go ahead. Go ahead. You could do it.
Antoine: Yeah. You see those pool and you see all those people fishing. Like, there are, like, five or six people in the pool fishing.
Tom: Yeah, I've seen it.
Antoine: look at them and it reminds me...because we're hunting for fish, so it reminds me of a hunter shooting in the blue sky, waiting for a bird to fall. That's really what it is. So, I get that. I see those people. And what I do is...[00:56:00] Now we're gonna talk about the dry dropper. I will put a fisher dry dropper, but a fisher dry dropper that's slightly different. So, usually dry dropper, you have your fly line, you have your leader, and then you have your dry. And you should usually try to get something fairly bushy or big to suspend a nymph underneath. And so, you need something that floats fairly well. So that's the idea. My dry dropper, [00:56:30] I have my fly line, I have my 10-foot-long leader, I have a foot of 5x, I have a CDC fly. You know the fly I show you? Those little puffy things?
Tom: Yep, yep.
Antoine: That weighs nothing?
Tom: Yep.
Antoine: Okay. That's what I use for a dry dropper. So, you cannot suspend a 2-millimeter bead with this. I mean, it will not suspend nothing. I mean, it will sink immediately. So, I put that fly there. From the eye of the fly, I put another 8 or 9 feet of 6 or 7x, and I put a nymph at the end. And now [00:57:00] I'm gonna fish 2 feet of water.
Tom: Wow.
Antoine: So now I'm only...
Tom: So, you're fishing the shallower areas that other people aren't fishing?
Antoine: Yes, yes. You have boulders that are, like, you know, 2 feet in diameter. You have a little current that go on between them. You don't have much water there. And I'm gonna cast exclusively upstream.
Tom: [00:57:30] Okay. So, this is pocket water you're talking about, riffles, pocket water, right?
Antoine: Yeah, outside of pools or gentle riffle that are foot-and-a-half, 2 feet deep. Yep. And then all that water, I'm gonna fish it and I'm gonna cast exactly upstream, straight upstream. And I'm casting 30, 40 feet upstream with a big loop to make sure that my nymph is completely at the end extended from my dry fly. [00:58:00] And basically, here what I'm doing is I'm doing a dry dropper tight line nymphing. That's what it is. And my fly line is going to move at the speed of the top of the current. So, the top of the water is going to move fairly quick compared to the bottom. And when that nymph sink and reach close to the bottom, my fly line is going to pull my nymph out of there. And so, my nymph, even though it's 8, 9 feet behind my dry fly, my nymph will never [00:58:30] reach the bottom and is going to zigzag going down on between rocks. And it's a beautiful thing. And then the beauty of it is it takes energy for the fly line to pull that nymph, correct?
Tom: Correct.
Antoine: Which means that, because the nymph is attached to the eye of the dry fly, it's going to pull on that dry fly. That dry fly is suddenly going to point upstream [00:59:00] and is going to start going down with the current but slightly slower than the speed of current, imitating perfectly an emerging insect. So now I'm fishing two flies that work very well, in places people don't fish usually.
Tom: And fish also take the dry fly, the CDC fly?
Antoine: Fifty-50.
Tom: And let's describe that fly because...Let's tell people how you tie that because...
Antoine: So that fly is from Yanick. You met Yanick, [00:59:30] we fished together.
Tom: Yep.
Antoine: So, it's basically, I tie this most of them on size 14 or 16 or 12. But you can tie them smaller or bigger. But I use a...I put my thread on the hook. I go to the band of my hook. Here I put a piece of Coq de Leon for the tail, CDL for the tail. And then I put the [01:00:00] tip of my CDC feathers on the back of the fly, and then I'm gonna wrap it all the way to the neck. And every time I do a wrap, I palmer it back. Okay. So, I get a big puff of CDC all along the fly, and then I put a little piece of yarn for a sighter or post in front, a little bit of hairs here for the thorax, and that's it. That's it. I'm done.
Tom: Do you trim the CDC? Because on a size [01:00:30] 16...
Antoine: No.
Tom: ...that would be kind of a big hackle, right?
Antoine: It's a big ball, yeah. Yeah. And the stuff moves in the water. The hair of the CDC wiggles around, and, boy, they love it. So, now we talk about this. The advantage of that fly is you can also do something else with it. So, nymph, when they are [01:01:00] insect, when they're at the nymphal stage, they're going downstream. You know, they eat food. No more food here, they let go up, they go somewhere else. They are going down. Okay. So, they go down, they go down. At that speed, everybody's telling me, "Well, all the bugs are going to end up in the middle of the ocean." I'm just like, "Yeah," but after a year, they emerge. So, they don't get there. So, the bug emerged. First thing bugs wants to do is to repopulate their species. And so, they all fly upstream. [01:01:30] So, a lot of bugs, when you see them ash, they turn their head towards upstream, and they try to get the current to push their trunk out. And you see them wiggling like this and they're desperately...And very often you see them drift, and they drift slower than the current. Okay.
So, now you know what it is to do to skid a caddis downstream. What I'm going to do with now is I'm going to cast my fly upstream [01:02:00] from me. I'm gonna immediately roll cast my fly line and my leader. And on that case, I'm going to put a sighter on my dry fly leader. So, I'm gonna roll cast my dry fly line, my leader, and my sighter, and I'm gonna replace all of this upstream from my fly. Then I'm gonna keep my tip very low to the surface, and I'm gonna pull my tip downstream. And that is going to make my fly travel up. [01:02:30] And I can keep my dry fly upstream from me all day long. So now the advantage is the fish doesn't see you. He doesn't see a fly line. He doesn't see your leader, doesn't see your tippet. All he sees is a bug going upstream. So, I'm not saying don't match the ash. You have to match the ash. But if we can match the ash and food, we're in good shape.
Tom: So, [01:03:00] let me just back up for a minute. So, you make a cast and then you roll cast, but you don't roll cast the flies, right?
Antoine: Correct. Correct.
Tom: Just the line and the leaders. Okay.
Antoine: That's right. That's why I have a sighter on my leader so I can look at the sighter. If you look at your fly, you roll cast the whole thing. So, I look at my sighter, and I only roll cast everything up to my sighter.
Tom: Up to your sighter, okay. Got it. Got it. Okay, good.
Antoine: Then you can put your sighter across the [01:03:30] river, more up towards you. You can put it wherever you want. And the fly will we'll follow your sighter.
Tom: So, your sighter is gonna be upstream of the fly.
Antoine: Always. Yes.
Tom: And then when you move it, it's going to move the fly upstream.
Antoine: Up, yes.
Tom: Okay. Got it. Okay.
Antoine: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And fish love this. I mean, you go in places where fish don't rise, and you do this for a little bit, somehow, somewhere a fish is gonna come up and try to eat it.
Tom: Okay. You've got me [01:04:00] thinking now. I'm gonna be trying it.
Antoine: I know. I know. I like it. It's fun. It's nice because all those things are fairly new, but I mean, you know, give it another six months, and now the genius is going to think about something else. Yeah. I mean, I don't invent anything. I just look at what they do, and I bring it back here. Those people are filled with resource. I mean, it's just...you [01:04:30] know, I go sight fishing with Bertrand. It's just a nightmare. And we go to the Swift River, and then after 15, 20 minutes fishing there, we have a line of people looking at us fishing on the side trail. They're just like, "What is this guy doing?" Because we're fishing size 14 flies on 6x tippet when everybody's fishing 8x and size 28, and that's too big.
Tom: Yeah. I've seen that.
Antoine: But we approach fish a different way. We look at it differently. We don't want [01:05:00] the fish to see...If the fish doesn't see you...I mean, I look at fish like they have two counters like in your car. One is fear and one is feeding. So feeding is always high. And suddenly they see a leader, they see a tippet, they see a fly drag, the fear goes up a little bit. So now the fish is like, "Oh, something is abnormal. There's something going on." You know, just like fear is a little bit up and the feeding goes down. [01:05:30] If you keep doing this, the fear goes way up, and the feedings stopped completely and go to zero. Then you can do whatever you want, that fish will not eat your fly. So, we don't wanna be seen. We wanna catch fish by surprise. The goal of all this is to put a fish in your net and the fish is giving you the look and say, "How did that happen?" That's what we want. We want fish that are [01:06:00] surprised. You know, they give you the look, the corner of the eyes. They look at you just like, "How did I end up in this net? I mean, I survived all those years, and how did I end up here? What is this?"
Tom: I like that analogy that as the fear goes up, the feeding goes down, and as the fear goes down, the feeding goes up. It's kind of on a continuum, on a balancing scale. I like that a lot. That's a great analogy.
Antoine: Yeah. And they always wanna eat. So, you know, [01:06:30] as soon as you don't put them into fear too long and you stop, and the fear goes down slowly, and the feeding comes back up. We like fish.
Tom: How about rods? What do you use for this kind of fishing? What rod do you like?
Antoine: So, right now, my favorite rod is that 8.5 for [01:07:00] the H4. I fell in love with that stick. I think it's just a wonderful little rod.
Tom: Eight-and-a-half?
Antoine: Yeah, 8.5-foot. It's 8.5-foot 4-weight.
Tom: Wow. So, you're fishing a lot shorter rod than most of the...
Antoine: That's for dry fly and all that.
Tom: And the dry dropper?
Antoine: Yes. And I use a double taper line, and I cut the taper off. Yeah. So, I have a line that's [01:07:30] very straight. So, I can roll cast long distance.
Tom: Okay. Now, how...?
Antoine: I grease my fly line and the leader so it flows high.
Tom: What kind of grease do you put on them?
Antoine: I don't know, whatever they sell at the store.
Tom: The fly dressing, the paste...
Antoine: Whatever fly dressing you find. I'm not specific on that.
Tom: And then for Euro nymphing, what rod do you like?
Antoine: So, for Euro, I use...I have my [01:08:00] Blackout. I mean, that, to me, is a nice rod. And I have...
Tom: That's a 9.5 for 5?
Antoine: No. The Blackout for Euro nymphing is 11/3.
Tom: Oh, 11-foot 3-weight, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yep, yep.
Antoine: Yes. It was replaced by the new one. I don't see the difference much.
Tom: Oh, it's the same rod. It's the same rod. It's the same blank. It came out first as a Blackout series to kind of introduce the [01:08:30] fourth generation of Helios and then they just put it into the regular line. So, it's the same rod, yeah.
Antoine: And Orvis is not going to like me for this, but the Recon 10-foot 2-weight is extremely sensitive. So, I got a lot more sensation when I fished a center leader. It's always the same thing, you know. We don't have one rod, we don't have one leader, we don't have one fly, we don't have one tippet. We have all of those things. And as Troy [01:09:00] Meyer says, the situation dictates what we're going to do. And so, we take all that soup that we have and we try to make a plan A, B, C, Z2, Z12, whatever it is.
Tom: Yeah. When you get on the river, you never know what you're gonna do.
Antoine: Yep. Yep. I'll tell you this, every guiding trip I have, I have never made a plan because Mother Nature always destroy it. So, I'm not making any plan.
Tom: Yeah. And, you know, people ask me, [01:09:30] "What do you do when you first get to the river?" And I tell them, "Well, I look around and I make a plan after I see the water and see what's going on. And then I change that plan throughout the day."
Antoine: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, no, the plan, and then you start your plan, and then soon you see something up, you change plans again.
Tom: Yeah. I mean, that's what fishing is all about.
Antoine: Oh, yeah, it's a never-ending complex situation. That's [01:10:00] why I love it. And it's good for your brain, too. So, you know what? On that thing, I think we should advocate a few things. We should advocate Medicare paying for fly fishing. I think it would be a good idea.
Tom: A what?
Antoine: Yeah. Medicaid and Medicare paying for fly fishing.
Tom: Oh, yeah. That's a good idea, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Antoine: Yeah, yeah, because it's good for your brain, it's good for your active outside, you know, the...Maybe we should do that. Yeah.
Tom: And private insurance, too, not just Medicare and Medicaid.
Antoine: [01:10:30] Yes. Yes. Yes.
Tom: Yeah. I'm gonna put in an insurance claim today and see how far it goes.
Antoine: Yes. Yes. Tell them you need to go fishing immediately, yeah.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Antoine: I mean, you know, I do program for Project Healing Water, the veteran. I do The Mayfly Project with Jess. Jess Westbrook.
Tom: Yeah, that's a great organization.
Antoine: Yeah. And those help people. It just [01:11:00] help people. When I do my booking for the year, I take all my biggest clients first because that's what pays the bill. And then my second tier is Trout Unlimited, Project Healing Water, my vets, and the foster kids, and then the rest comes in. But first all those things are taking place. Those are must for me.
Tom: Great. Good for you. Good for you. Giving back.
Antoine: The people. It's important. [01:11:30] Yeah.
Tom: All right. So, let's see. What didn't we cover that...?
Antoine: What didn't we cover? What we didn't cover, one thing that is very important, the cast.
Tom: The cast. Okay.
Antoine: More cast. I mean, I'm a decent caster. I mean, I taught people how to cast at the school for eight years. So, I hope I'm a decent caster by now. [01:12:00] Last year I took four casting lesson. I go take casting lessons.
Tom: Yep. Me too, me too.
Antoine: Because we never cast well enough.
Tom: Nope, we don't. We don't.
Antoine: Never. And so, every trip I have, it's not...I don't do this in purpose to do a casting lesson right off the bat. But almost every trip I do is I do one thing very simple. The first stop we do is we stop at a parking lot [01:12:30] somewhere along the river, and I make people cast so I can see what they can do and what they can't with the fly rod. So that tells me where we can go, where we cannot, because I don't wanna frustrate them. And I don't want either to put them in a place that's too easy for them. So, I want to find their middle. So, you know, the look at them cast tells me what we can do and what we can't. And then as long as we are there, that's where I'm sneaky. You know, I'm French. I mean, I have an excuse. [01:13:00] I give them a casting lesson in the same process. Yeah. Because everybody needs one.
Tom: And Antoine, what kind of mistakes do you see in casting over and over again that you need to correct?
Antoine: The two biggest one is people wanna throw things away. That's number one. And the second one is everybody wants to use their tip to propel [01:13:30] the line instead of using the butt section of the rod. Yeah. And so, it creates a lot of telling loops. It creates, you know, what they call wrist knot, wing knot, whatever it is. Yep. It's not...I don't mind tying knots. I tie knots all day. So, I mean, you know, if I was afraid of knot, I would have to change job immediately, but as I tie knots, they're not fishing. So, [01:14:00] we try to avoid telling loops.
Tom: So, you say that they don't use the butt. How do you get someone to use the butt of the rod?
Antoine: Okay. So, I'm going to go into...So, you know I used to be a ski instructor, correct?
Tom: Yeah.
Antoine: Okay. So, we have a group of people called the PSIA. It's the Professional Ski Instructor of America. And those people dissect and analyze skiing move. And we use [01:14:30] video and programs to do that, which I have in my phone. So, what I do is I do exactly the same thing for casting. And the first thing we look at is, for example, if I look at my hand, my hand is built with tons of little bones, tons of cartilage, tons of different little muscles and it is virtually impossible to hold something in my hand in an immobile fashion. If that thing wants to move, [01:15:00] it will move. When I cast, no matter what you do, your rod somehow somewhere is going to move inside your hand.
So, it's very difficult to describe, but I'm looking at my hand right now. I'm pointing at different parts of my hands. So, under your thumb on the opposite side of the thumb, you have that butt section of your hand. That's where you're going to have...it's going to be on top of the rod with your thumb [01:15:30] in front, the thumb in the back, the top of your back of your hand, and underneath you're going to have the major and the annular fingers that are going to be...So, the back cast is the back of your hand, the top...It's difficult to explain. I wish I could have a picture. Anyway, you have three levers.
So, on your back cast, you have two major levers that hold the rod, and then the forward cast is the thumb, and underneath your major finger basically. I'm trying to [01:16:00] move my rod inside my hand and manipulate the rod inside my hand as I cast, and the rod does a progressive acceleration to an upward stop. And in my hand, I'm moving the rod with a progressive move to an upward stop. And by doing this, you virtually bend the butt section of the rod. You're not worrying about the tip. You never feel the tip propel or vibrate or bang or anything like this. And you're just moving [01:16:30] the butt of the rod. And when you put some strength into the butt of the rod, those rods are so well designed today that it goes right through the rod and to the tip into the line all the way to your fly.
Tom: So, are you saying that you're using a more or less loose grip on the rod and letting the rod move around inside your hand?
Antoine: Say that again.
Tom: Are you...? I didn't quite follow what you're trying to explain there. I know it's [01:17:00] hard without...And I'm sitting here looking at my thumb and my hand, as most people probably are when they were listening to this. So, you got your thumb on top. Do you use those fingers below the thumb? Are they doing anything?
Antoine: Oh, yeah. So, the whole thing is...Let's say you hold your rod, okay? And you try to hold your rod in mobile, okay? And that [01:17:30] rod is horizontal, facing straight in front of you. Okay. Now I'm gonna put a weight on top of the rod. And you don't want the rod to bend. Do you see where the pressure is going to be in your hand?
Tom: I think so.
Antoine: Under your finger, the ad major, and the other one. What is it called, the annular?
Tom: I don't know.
Antoine: The one with the wedding ring.
Tom: Yeah. Okay. I'll take your word for it.
Antoine: So those two are going to be at the center of the [01:18:00] cork, and they're going to hold this, and then in the back, that middle part of the palm of your hand is going to hold the rod on top. Okay. So, those are the two pressure points for your back cast. And now if you hold the hammer and you push your hammer on the wall, you're going to push the hammer with your thumb, those two same fingers that you hold it when you do your back cast. And so those three points create a lever. And [01:18:30] now, as I hold the rod firmly in my hand without squeezing it like a rattlesnake, but nicely, I'm going to move that rod inside my hand. And it's not much. You know, you gotta play with it. You gotta discover what it feels like. You have to fool around with it, but it is very efficient.
Tom: So, it gives you that extra crispness on your cast. Is that what it does? It gives you a better stop?
Antoine: No, it doesn't. What it really does, [01:19:00] as long as your hand moves progressively, the whole thing will move progressively. And a rod, you wanna bend the rod from the butt all the way to the tip. And you don't want any wobbles in it. You don't want any tip vibration. You don't want none of this. Well, it's all coming from your hand. I mean, if you try to cast a fly line without a rod, you're going to cast that fly line 3 feet, and [01:19:30] that's about it.
Tom: Yeah. Except if you were Lefty Kreh, you could throw the whole fly line. He used to do that.
Antoine: If you use just the tip of the rod, you can go a little further. But if you have a 9-foot long rod, 5-weight, if you move that rod properly...I mean, there is...Yeah, I would not say there's no limit, but boy, you can cast all your whole fly line in summer.
Tom: Some people can.
Antoine: Very easily without any work. I'll tell you this, I worked [01:20:00] so hard I have a metal right shoulder now.
Tom: Wow.
Antoine: Don't work at it. Let the rod do the work. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Rule for this. Oh, yeah.
Tom: I'm gonna have to experiment with it.
Antoine: The next time I see you, I'll try to explain this. It's a weird feeling, but it's contrary to what [01:20:30] we teach most people.
Tom: Okay. Yeah. Do you have a...?
Antoine: So, at the beginning, I think it's a good idea to use the tip because it gives you an immediate result.
Tom: Yeah. Do you have a video or anything of this concept?
Antoine: No, but I can send you one.
Tom: Well, I'm not worried about me because I can always come and see you. I'm worried about the thousands of people that are listening to the podcast.
Antoine: I don't have a video. [01:21:00] I could make one and put on my website.
Tom: You should, yeah. Yeah, you should.
Antoine: But the thing is, at the beginning, what we want to do is we want people to move the tip of the fly rod a fairly short distance and stop abruptly.
Tom: Yep, stop abruptly.
Antoine: And that will propel the line. As soon as they have that feeling going, now they have an idea of what a fly rod does. And now you can go down to the butt section of the rod, and now you can manipulate that butt section and get a much better [01:21:30] result.
Tom: Okay. I'm gonna play around with it.
Antoine: Yeah. The nice thing about it is you can really control the rod. It's very difficult to control the tip with your hand because your hand is holding the other end of the rod.
Tom: Right. Yeah, you're right.
Antoine: You're in the opposite direction. But controlling the butt is possible. So if you can control that seal in your hand and you can control that movement in your hand, the rest of the rod is designed to do it. It will just cast.
Tom: Well, that's probably why the fourth-generation Helios [01:22:00] have been so successful because they do a lot of that for you. They eliminate a lot of that vibration in the tip.
Antoine: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. I saw that difference immediately right away. You know, and every year we see that new Helios coming up, and I'm just like, "What on earth are they going to do to make it better?" And I'm very skeptical, to be honest with you.
Tom: Me too.
Antoine: But I have to admit, that H4 is something else.
Tom: Yeah, I have to admit I was skeptical as well, but [01:22:30] I'm convinced now.
Antoine: I'm like Saint Thomas, you know, if I don't see it, I don't believe it.
Tom: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yep. All right, Antoine, and then you have a guest coming that you wanted to talk about a little bit.
Antoine: So, yes, so I have Bertrand Jacquemin coming in July. He's going to be here on July where I'm doing three sessions. I don't call them clinic or...they're [01:23:00] session. So they're session where the people come in, and basically Bertrand and I, we go with people, and we talk about fishing, we talk about different things we do, we talk on how we look at the water, how we approach fish, how we fish them. We look at situation, we explain what's in our brain, basically what is on his brain. And I call them sessions because they're not telling you, do this. No. [01:23:30] They're suggesting something. And then it's for you to work. So, we do this on the 20th, 21st, and 28th of July.
I have another session on the 27th, which is already booked by important people, but I can't mention the name otherwise ,they're gonna kill me. And then those sessions will do some dry dropper, we'll do something new, we'll do something...There is no [01:24:00] translation in English, but basically, we are fishing in nymph, and we're fishing in nymph where our leader and our tippet is dropped in the water. The leader and the tippet kind of floats. So, partially it's underwater, partially it's on the surface. It goes back to the old, you know, [inaudible 01:24:24.498] way of nymphing. It's very close to that. But nothing is new. Nothing is new. [01:24:30] [crosstalk 01:24:31.120] adaptation. Yeah. It's like flies, there's no new flies but the adaptation of existing one.
And it's all this, you know, and we'll do that. And it's going to be a lot of fun. And just so you know, Bertrand is one of the only three that won a gold medal in the World Cup three times. So basically, Bertrand won it twice on a row, then Julien Daguillanes won it once, cutting down his [01:25:00] streak. And then Bertrand win it again. And then Julien won it twice. So, they both got it three times. And then the protégé of Bertrand is Pierre Kuntz. And Pierre Kuntz won last year, the year before, and the year before. He won the last three year in a row.
Tom: Wow. So can people find out about these on your website?
Antoine: So, they will find this...I'm going to put a blurb also on [01:25:30] the website. I'm doing this with the Orvis store in Avon.
Tom: Okay. So they can book through the Orvis store in Avon.
Antoine: They can book through the Orvis store in Avon. Avon is sending an email with those information. And then also information, there's a new fly shop in Bristol called the Local Fly Shop. And they are an Orvis-endorsed store. I don't know exactly how you call those things, but they carry Orvis product there. [01:26:00] And so, they're going to advertise that. And I'm doing one evening with them. I don't have the date exactly, but I think it's the 21st, but I'm doing one evening. The guy who opened the store, his brother has a brewery. And so, it's in the back of the brewery.
Tom: Oh, cool.
Antoine: Oh, yeah. So, I'm going to go there with Bertrand. We going to do a lecture and people can order beer on the same time. It's pretty cool. It's oriented toward the younger, you know, crowd, which is, [01:26:30] you know, we need them. We want them. They're fun. So that's a good thing. But anyway, so those things are nice. And it's always so interesting to see somebody that good that is so humble about fishing. I mean, you know Yanick, he's not humble, but, boy, Bertrand is, like, Mr. Humble Guy. I mean, as [01:27:00] humble as animal. I mean, yeah, he's like Mr. Joe Schmo from every day. He looks at you just like nothing ever happened. And it's nice. You know, I've seen with clients, he talks to them. And during those sessions, everybody will have time to spend with him one-on-one not about what we talk about, but about them. Where are they in their fishing? What are they doing? You know, and then when we look at [01:27:30] them, they are able to see immediately what they're doing, and maybe trying to help them personally where they are in their growth of learning.
Tom: Interesting.
Antoine: I mean, people love those clinics.
Tom: Yeah. It sounds great.
Antoine: Everybody who comes there, they're coming out of it, and they're just like, "Oh my God. I mean, it's just...Yes, yes, we want more."
Tom: Well, that sounds great. That sounds great.
Antoine: Yeah, we're pretty excited about it.
Tom: Okay. Well, and [01:28:00] people, of course, if they wanna book you, they can find you on the Orvis website.
Antoine: Yes. And don't wait. Don't wait. And if you want to book me for, like, spring trip, you know, don't...you know, think already a year, two years in advance.
Tom: Yeah, that award does increase your bookings, doesn't it?
Antoine: Well, let's put it this way, before the award, I was doing about 200 and some trips a year. [01:28:30] And now it's just like, I don't know what to do with it. I mean, it's just like...I feel sorry about it. I'm trying to be nice with everybody, and it's just impossible. And then we get six weeks of rain. It took my schedule, virtually put into a huge box, shake it violently, and give it back.
Tom: Yeah, it's been a tough spring. It's been definitely a tough spring in the East.
Antoine: I was just like, "Oh, my God." But anyway, just send a [01:29:00] text. Don't email me. Don't do anything. Send me a text. Give me your name. Send me a text. Tell me, "Hi. I wanna go fish. You know, we wanna do this. We wanna do that." Tell me what you're doing. So, if I don't respond, I'm not snubbing people. I don't respond to the phone during the day because I'm with my client. But I respond early in the morning and late at night. And that's why I'm asking everybody to go on text, please text, text, text, text, because there's so many mode of communication today that, you know, by the time I [01:29:30] figure out the WhatsApp, the messenger, the email, the this, the that, I mean, when do I sleep? I mean, I need sleep. So, I put everybody on text.
Tom: Okay. Do you wanna risk giving your phone number here?
Antoine: Yeah, yes, I'll risk. Go for it. You ready?
Tom: Yeah.
Antoine: So, it's 860-759-4464.
Tom: Antoine, you are a brave man.
Antoine: [01:30:00] I have nothing to lose. What worst could happen? I have to go fish more? Okay, I'll take it.
Tom: Well, they're gonna ask you all kinds of questions now.
Antoine: That's okay. That's okay. We'll respond.
Tom: Okay. Well, that's great. That's very generous of you as well.
Antoine: No, no, no.
Tom: All right.
Antoine: You wanna be nice with everyone. It's a nice sport with nice people. We wanna be nice.
Tom: Yeah. Antoine...
Antoine: And then I'll [01:30:30] tell you one thing, you gave me some chocolate. I'm gonna place an order for more because I told my wife, "Look. I made some chocolate." She said, "Oh, yeah?" She didn't say a word. I took a piece, I went, I came back to the kitchen, the whole thing was gone. She ate the whole thing. And she's, like, coming to me and she's like, "Oh, this is very nice. Do we have more?" I'm just like, "What?" So, we need more chocolate.
Tom: Well, I can't mail it...and I don't sell it, by the way. I've never sold a bar, but I give it [01:31:00] to friends. And I can't ship it during the winter or the summertime, but I'll have to come down and see you.
Antoine: I need to have some. I'll come up.
Tom: Okay. We'll figure it out.
Antoine: And then, you know what? I missed fishing with you today, but I'm not missing being in my waders with 97-degree weather outside.
Tom: Yeah, Antoine and I were going to...we were gonna fish up here today, and then he was gonna come over to my house to do the podcast, but I looked at the weather. It was supposed to be 97 [01:31:30] degrees. And we both decided we would sit in air conditioning today and relax.
Antoine: It's a very smart move. All right, Tom. This is good.
Tom: All right, Antoine. Well, thank you so much. We've been talking to Antoine Bissieux, the French Fly Fisherman, Orvis-endorsed guide, and winner of the 2025 Endorsed Guide of the Year. Congratulations. And Antoine, thank you for sharing all your knowledge.
Antoine: Anytime. Thank you, Tom.
Tom: [01:32:00] Thanks for listening to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast with Tom Rosenbauer." You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at