Secrets of the World's Most Successful Permit Angler, with Mike Ward
Podcast Transcript:
[music]
[00:00:22]
Tom: Well, what do you think of that new theme music? Do you like it? It's too bad if you don't, because that's the new theme music, and I like it. And the music is the intro from a song called "Loyston" by Daniel Kimbro. And Daniel is a friend and a fishing buddy. I met him at the Green Mountain Bluegrass Festival last year, and he has really increased my music sophistication, particularly around bluegrass. And we've had a lot of fun fishing together, haven't we, Daniel?
Daniel: We have.
Tom: Yeah, Daniel's here in the podcast studio with me. And we're going to play you the entirety of "Loyston" at the end of the podcast. But Daniel, you want to just briefly tell people what the song is about?
Daniel: Sure. Thanks for having me, first of all. Yeah, so "Loyston," L-O-Y-S-T-O-N, if you want to do any internet searching about it. Loyston is a town in Tennessee that is underwater. When the Tennessee Valley Authority built the dams, Norris Dam was the first one constructed. And that is just a few miles up the road north of where I live in Knoxville, Tennessee. And there's a really cool campground where some friends of my wife stay often. And they had told us about it, and we have gone and stayed there with them. And it's called Loyston Point Campground.
And so I said, "Why is it called Loyston Point?" And it's because it's on the Loyston Sea. And why is it called Loyston Sea? Well, that's because underneath the Loyston Sea is the old town that used to be along the Clinch River, and now it's underneath Norris Lake.
And I grew up on another TVA lake in Morristown, Tennessee, and it's called Cherokee Lake. And that's on the Holston River. Folks that listen to your podcast may be aware of the South Holston fishery, and a really cool tailwater that we have in southwestern Virginia and northeast Tennessee. But anyway, once it's the fully fledged Holston River, it eventually makes its way down to Morristown, Tennessee, where Cherokee Dam is, more or less. And then it rolls on to Knoxville, where it meets the French Broad River, and those two rivers combine to form the Tennessee River there at Knoxville.
So I grew up fishing and running around these TVA lakes, and we were fishing all summer and fall, and then once winter rolled around, the lakes were drawn down. We were looking for native artifacts and Civil War artifacts, and stuff in these old places. And I would always see farm remnants, foundations, and you still see old silos and these kinds of things.
And anyway, progress, I guess, is a harbinger of displacement. And so the southeastern United States was drastically changed, and east Tennessee was drastically changed by hydropower for the good in a lot of ways. But I thought it was a cool story to tell, and the song just popped into my head one day, and that's it, man. And I think I sent that song to you, and you liked it, and I'm glad that you did.
Tom: I did. Well, you sent me the whole album. And by the way, Daniel's solo album is called "Carpet in the Kitchen," and you can find it... Where can people buy the CD? Because we don't want them just streaming it.
Daniel: I appreciate that.
Tom: You told me you got your five-dollar monthly check.
Daniel: I did. I just got my royalty check from my Performance Rights Organization, which is BMI. People might be familiar with ASCAP or BMI, and it was $5.06, but it's not going to be news to anybody that residual payments and music aren't really a thing anymore now that streaming happens.
But the best way to support any musician is to buy the physical product that they're selling. And so thanks for pointing that out, Tom. But you can reach me in any capacity at danielkimbro.com. You can order the vinyl, you can order a compact disc, or you can order the digital download, and that's great. And you can also reach me via that website if you want to tell me that you like the old Orvis music better, or whatever it is.
Tom: No, too bad. Too bad.
Daniel: You can also email me with your tips on hook setting on river carp, because Tom caught two today, and I broke off two today.
Tom: They were good fish, though, and you fed them, and that was the important thing.
Daniel: Thanks, man. It was fun. We had a good time. We had a big cold front rolling in, otherwise... But we still had a lot of good fishing, and it was really fun. Thanks for taking me all around, man. I really appreciate it.
Tom: Well, thank you for letting us use your music, and appreciate it, Daniel.
Daniel: Absolutely. Anytime. Thanks for having me, Tom.
Tom: Okay. Welcome to the "Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast." I'm so glad you're here, and so glad you're listening. I enjoy doing these podcasts, and I especially enjoy answering your questions. So thank you very much for all the great questions that you send in. It makes this podcast more like a conversation than a lecture, and I really appreciate the feedback and the questions I get.
Now, to save yourself some trouble, I get questions or I get suggestions for podcast topics that I've already covered in the past. And the best way to search all of the past podcasts is to go to the Orvis Learning Center, howtoflyfish.orvis.com. Click on the Podcasts tab, and then you can search all the podcasts. You can search the titles and actually the content in the podcast to find out if there was an interview that may answer the questions.
I had one recently about, why don't you do a podcast about wet fly fishing? Well, I've done a couple in the past, a couple of good ones, and I don't know how much more I can do. I did one with Davy Wotton on wet flies, and then I did one with Steve Culton on swinging soft hackles. And maybe I can do one in the future, but if you want some basic tips on fishing wet flies, search the podcast, and you'll find other ones as well. But if you have a question that I haven't covered yet, or you don't remember me covering, then you can send it to me via the fly box mailbox. That's
Oh, and by the way, almost forgot, the interview this week is with Mike Ward. And Mike is arguably the most successful permit angler in the world. Mike has recently surpassed Del Brown's record of 500 and something. I don't remember exactly how many he caught, but Mike has recently surpassed that, and has caught over 500 permit, and probably as I'm speaking now, he's probably added a few more to his list. But Mike has been all over the world chasing permit.
And so I wanted to reach out to Mike and find out what kind of tips he could offer to us. Now, obviously, Mike has the means and the time to do this, and that's important, but he's also learned a lot of things on the way. So I hope you enjoy the podcast, particularly if you are a permit angler or if you're thinking of going permit fishing. This is definitely one you want to listen to.
And let's start the fly box. And the first question is an email from Daniel. "I've been a regular listener of the show for several years. You and your guests have taught me so much about fly fishing and challenged me to try new things when I get complacent in my fishing habits. Thanks for all you and Orvis do for making the fly fishing community a more fun and inclusive place without compromising your conservation efforts.
Now for my question. On August 21st, I fished a high alpine lake around 12,000 feet in the Rocky Mountains near where I live. It holds relatively few but above-average-sized cutthroat trout. I spent all morning casting my normal rotation of dries, dry droppers, and streamers that typically work on the high alpine lakes in this area, but had no luck. I noticed tiny flying ants landing on the water, a small caddis hatch, and later, many large terrestrials getting blown into the lake. Despite this considerable bug action on the surface, I only saw two fish rise all day, and only one fish even inspected my offerings. Fish in the surrounding alpine lakes are often eager to take any dry fly thrown their way.
Towards the end of the day, I noticed several large cutthroats spawning in a small, shallow area along the bank of the lake. I watched them for about an hour and took in how beautiful they were from a distance. In all my years of fishing, this was the most fun I've ever had without a rod in my hand. But as far as I could tell, none of these were eating on the surface or even subsurface.
My question is this. Is it possible that the spawning activity in one small corner of the lake impacted the feeding of the trout in the entire lake? While there were a couple of rises over several hours far away from the spawning area, the fish cruising the shelves and drop-offs seemed just as uninterested in eating as the spawning fish.
In rivers in this area, the non-spawning trout, far from the red, still feed regularly during spawning season. So what could I have done differently that day when targeting the non-spawning trout in this high-elevation lake? Do you think if I come back in a few weeks, these same fish should be done spawning and hungry again? I'd love to hear your thoughts and experience with similar situations."
Oh, boy, Daniel, I don't know about that one. That one is a mystery to me, particularly cutthroats spawning in late summer. Cutthroats generally spawn later than rainbows in the spring and into early summer, but seeing cutthroats exhibiting spawning behavior in August is one that I personally have never seen, so I don't know.
The only thing I can think of is that that lake is so high, and perhaps that area had a really cold summer. I know it's been pretty cool in Colorado this summer, cooler than it has been, that perhaps the fish spawned really late, and these were just a couple of really late spawners. I don't know.
But I don't think the fish were not eating on the surface because of any spawning behavior, because the other fish in the lake were obviously not spawning. And fish are tough to predict, especially regarding surface feeding. One day they'll feed on the surface, and another day they won't. And there's often no visible reason or one that I can source out that makes that happen. So you could go back tomorrow, and the fish could be feeding on the surface.
I suspect it might have been water temperature. You didn't say if you took a water temperature, but I suspect that maybe the water temperature was really low, and the fish weren't active enough to feed on the surface. I don't know what to... You probably know better than I do what to do in that lake. But when fish are like that, typically in a lake like that, a small Pheasant Tail nymph or a similar quick-sinking, not too heavily weighted nymph is what I would use.
But you probably have better fly patterns. And retrieve it slowly. It does sound like a water temperature situation. But I really don't know. If anybody else has heard of cutthroat spawning that late or has had similar experiences, drop a line to the podcast mailbox, and I'll share it on the air.
Let's do another email. This one's from Tom in Chicago. "Hey, Tom, I wanted to ask about advice on techniques for fishing smaller rivers and streams in the Midwest with brush and trees. I found myself getting stuck in trees more often than I'd like, trying to make casts toward the opposite riverbank. Should I be doing smaller backcasts and shooting line, roll casting only?"
Well, Tom, there's a couple things here. Usually, if streams are relatively brushy, they are tough to fish across stream, and they're a lot easier to fish straight upstream, or in some cases, straight downstream, although straight upstream is better, because there's often an opening above the stream bed, and so you get backcast room there.
But if you can't do that or you don't want to do that, yes, a roll cast is definitely a good option. A bow and arrow cast, if you don't have to cast too far, just by pulling the fly back, bending the rod, and then letting it go. That's for very short casts and really tight streams.
But there's a couple of things here. Another thing you could try is instead of a roll cast is a single-handed Spey cast. You can do a little snap-T or a double Spey with even a short little trout rod fairly easily, particularly with a short line. So you may want to look online, look on the Orvis Learning Center, and watch how Pete Kutzer does those casts. And try a snap-T or a double Spey instead of a roll cast. They're kind of fun, too, and might get you into two-handed fishing.
Now, that being said, I fish a lot of small streams too. And there are some spots that I just say, "Eh, I'm not going to bother. I really don't want to put my fly in there," even with a bow and arrow cast. So sometimes you have to walk around certain spots where it's really brushy, and that's okay. Or sometimes, if you can get above the really brushy section and fish a small wet fly or a streamer and let it drift down into that pocket, that might work. But you may have to pass some things up, and that's okay.
Rich: Hey, Tom, this is Rich from Wilmette, Illinois. Thanks for taking my question. When fishing with light tippet small flies, tying knots, especially in low light, can feel like threading a needle in a windstorm. I had my eyes checked recently, and technically, I don't need readers yet, but I'm wondering, do you recommend magnifiers for anglers doing fine work like this? And if so, any tips on what works well in the water? Appreciate your thoughts on this one, Tom.
Tom: So, Rich, I think that nearly everyone needs some sort of magnifier glasses when you're fishing and tying small flies. When they check your eyesight, you may have perfect near vision, but when they check at the eye doctor, they're looking for your vision at like 10 inches away for reading a book or maybe 20 inches or so looking at a computer. But when you tie on a small fly or you're tying 7x tippet, you want to be about 4 inches from the fly so that you can really see what's going on. And you need magnifiers for that. No question about it.
There are some people that can focus that close, but not many. So no matter how old you are, it's going to help if you have a pair of readers. I like either 3x or 4x, or 3 diopters or 4 diopters of magnification. And those are tough to find. I know there's a pair. They're tough to find in drugstores and places. But I know there's a pair on the Orvis website called the Super Magnifiers that you can get in 3x and 4x.
And that's what I use both for tying flies and for tying on flies at stream site. And I use reading glasses for close work at home, but when I go fishing, I switch out my normal 2.5 readers for 3s or 4s because I can tie on a fly easier with those higher magnifications. So yeah, just go out and get yourself a pair of magnifiers, and you're going to have a lot less frustrating experience.
Here's an email from Rick from South Carolina. "Long-time listener. I've really enjoyed the podcast. My question is about transitioning to saltwater from freshwater fishing. I've only fished for trout and bass with my fly rod. I've spent years learning the hatches, bug life, walking our small mountain streams and rivers for native brookies, stock bows, and browns. I've got a small field guide that I've created for each stream and river system that works, and when to throw what.
My wife and I moved to Charleston, South Carolina, about five years ago. I still make the four-hour trek backed up to my trout waters once a month. I really want to get into saltwater fly fishing for red, sea trout, and the like, but it seems overwhelming. I've been hesitant to do so because I'm a trout purist, but I want to give it the old college try. Any recommendations on flies to start with would be great."
Well, Rick, first of all, the fly is the least important part of the equation here for the most part. What you want to do is concentrate on making a 40-foot cast and then picking that cast up and casting to another direction quickly with only 1 or 2 false casts, or no false casts if you can do it. That's the big difference in trout fishing and saltwater fishing.
And what freaks most people out is they're used to a trout sitting in one spot, and they can make numerous casts to the same fish. And you can take your time sometimes. And you can't do that in saltwater. The fish are moving often very quickly, and you have to make a split-second cast and make it accurate, sometimes in the wind. That's the most important thing.
Other than that, a little bit bigger rod, obviously, an 8 or 9-weight for what you're planning on doing will be a good rod. A little bit stiffer leader, probably something 12 or 16-pound leader. And as far as flies are concerned, I've never fished in that area, and there are some good fly shops in South Carolina, so I would call them up, or better yet, stop in and visit the fly shops and ask them what flies are good, because that's going to be the easy part. The easy part is getting the right flies. Because they're going to tell you exactly what's working, and you want to buy the flies from that fly shop because they've given you some very, very valuable information. They'll probably also give you a good place to fish.
Now, you didn't talk about a guide, but there is no better way to shortcut your learning experience. You can learn by going to places, going on your own, making a lot of mistakes, learning from your mistakes. It's a great way to learn, but not all of us have the time. And if you really want to shortcut your learning curve, the best thing to do is to hire a guide for the day. Guides are not cheap, but they work hard. They're great teachers, they're great educators, and it will go a long way to giving you more confidence in your saltwater fishing.
Here's one email from JB from the Dallas area. "I've been a fan of the podcast for a while now. I actually started listening back when I was working at an Orvis shop while finishing up my business degree. After school, I went into pharmaceutical sales, but I ended up stepping away from it since I just wasn't passionate about the products or the industry. That got me thinking, 'What advice would you give to a younger fly fisherman who wants to make a career in the industry?' Outside of guiding, retail, or being an influencer, what other paths are out there? And one more thing I've been curious about. Do you think the fly fishing apparel space is getting oversaturated? Seems like there's a new brand every time I walk into a fly shop."
Well, JB, I'll answer your second question first. Yeah, I think the fly fishing apparel space is oversaturated, but a lot of people love fly fishing, and they know how to make clothing, so they get into it. And a lot of those companies you see today may not be around in a couple of years because they don't realize how small a market fly fishing really is. A lot of you out there think fly fishing is this huge industry, and it's really not. It's pretty tiny. And so people want to do what they love, and they want to make apparel that is based on what they love, but it's a tough way to make a living, particularly with the tariffs these days. So yeah, I think it's oversaturated, but the market will sort that out.
As far as advice to young fly fishermen who want to make a career, this is a good example of a question that I answered very thoroughly with a guest on a past podcast. And that podcast is my October 28th, 2024, podcast with Kirk Deeter. I don't think there's anybody that knows the retail and commercial space and all of fly fishing better than Kirk.
And so Kirk and I both discuss ways that you can get into fly fishing for a career, both the perils and the joys. And there are a bunch of perils, and you have to make sacrifices, but I would recommend that you go and listen to that podcast, and I think it'll answer nearly all of your questions. And good luck.
Here's an email from Stephen. "Thanks for all you do for fly fishing, and thanks for the podcast. An amazing source of information and enjoyment. I'm not new to fly fishing. Grew up in Scotland, now in Wisconsin via Colorado, but new to fly tying. Wish I had started sooner.
Have a quick question regarding threads. Can you summarize when and why you might use a specific type of thread? For example, the type of material, be it gel-spun, or waxed, or a thread size. Also, I have heard some thread types that can help with tying on deer hair. Is this true? Thank you in advance, and hope all is well."
So Stephen, I think the best way to go about this is to get yourself a spool of gel-spun thread, monofilament thread. They do sell monofilament thread, 8/0 or 70 denier, and 3/0 or about 140 denier, and maybe some 210 denier thread. And what you want to do is you want to use the smallest thread you can get away with without breaking the thread. So in some flies, you don't need to put much pressure on materials. And even some larger flies, you could get away with 8/0 thread, which is the finer one.
It actually comes finer. It actually comes in 10/0 and even 12/0. So if you want to tie really small flies, then you might want some 10/0 or 12/0 thread. But tie the fly, and if the thread breaks in the first fly, then go to the next larger size. And then if you find that you're crowding the head and the head is too big on your fly, then you want to go to a smaller thread size. Gel-spun is a thread that most people use only for spinning deer hair. It's nasty stuff to work with, and nobody likes it very much, unless they only tie bass bugs.
And you don't need a gel-spun for all deer hair work. If you're tying like a muddler head or Elk Hair Caddis or something, you can use standard 140-denier or even 70-denier thread because you're not putting on a ton of deer hair, and you don't have to apply quite as much pressure as you do when spinning hair for bass bugs. But a lot of people do like gel-spun because it's really, really, really strong. It's also slippery, and it's hard to cut without a razor blade or something. It doesn't cut very well with scissors. And again, it's not fun to work with, but if you're tying heavy deer hair work, then gel-spun is good.
And also, if you want to build up a head or a body on a fly, maybe use a little bit bigger diameter. So if you're building up a head on a streamer or a salmon fly, or you want to build up a body, a smooth body, on a Perdigon nymph or something, then maybe using 140 denier instead of 70 denier might be a good idea.
Now, most threads these days are not pre-waxed. It used to be you could get thread that was pre-waxed, and they had a pretty good amount of wax on it. And I really loved it, but it gunked up bobbins. It would clog up your bobbin tube. And so there's a couple of things you can do. One is where you need wax. You can rub a little wax on your thread.
And also, I've heard of people softening up wax and kind of melting it and then just rubbing it into the spool of thread if you want all your thread pre-waxed. But even the stuff that is sold as pre-waxed, boy, it doesn't have much wax on it at all, not enough to dub something really wiry on it. So I wouldn't worry about wax versus pre-waxed. I think that you're not going to get much wax on what people call pre-waxed thread.
There's one consideration here in threads, and that's a flat thread versus a twisted thread. And I really like what Fulling Mill, the fly and fly material company, has done recently. All their threads, they sell in both a flat and a twisted thread. Personally, I like a twisted thread better. I feel it grips the materials better, and I find it grips the hook better.
Flat threads are nice. You can twist flat threads by spinning your bobbin. And they're nice for making really smooth bodies, underbodies, or bodies on flies. But I find that the twisted thread is... Just to my way of tying and thinking, I like the twisted thread better. But it's nice to have the option. And so you can get yourself a spool of flat thread, get yourself a spool of twisted thread, and see which one you like better.
Craig: Hi, Tom. This is Craig in Arkansas. Recently, I heard you speak to the Little Red River chapter of Trout Unlimited in Heber Springs, Arkansas. You did a great job, and it was a very good talk. The topic of fluorocarbon versus mono came up. And you made the comment that fluorocarbon basically did not have a shelf life at all, that it pretty much could last forever, and no need to replace it. But you said that mono does have a shelf life, and you recommended replacing it, like, every year.
So my question is, when I go into a fly shop, and I'm buying tippet material, does that tippet material have an expiration date on it? Are the shop owners replacing it every year? My second question is, if they aren't, and there's not a need to, as long as it's not exposed to the sun, then really, is there any reason for us to get rid of our tippet materials every year, as long as we're keeping them out of sunlight? Again, I appreciate all that you do for fly fishing and appreciate the podcast so much. Thank you.
Tom: Well, Craig, I used to tell people that I replaced my monofilament every year because I didn't trust it. And I got out of that habit to see how long... I haven't bought any monofilament tippet material, nylon tippet material in a couple of years. And I pulled off a spool of 5x the other day, and I kept breaking it off, both tying knots and in fish, and I realized that, yeah, that's a bad spool of thread.
But that thread had been on a spool retainer on the outside of my fishing pack, and I think it had a bit in the sun too long. I've got some nylon that I've kept in the basement in the dark in a Ziploc bag, and that seems to be fine, but I would be very careful about your lighter tippets, so your 4x, 5x, 6x, 7x. And if you use 8x, I would be really careful of those. I would probably replace 7x every year, although I've gone to 7x fluorocarbon. When I have to use 7x, I've gone to 7x fluorocarbon because it's more abrasion resistant, and I feel it's stronger, even though it might sink my dry fly a little bit more than nylon. But I've gone to 7x now, fluorocarbon completely. And fluorocarbon lasts forever. So you don't have to worry about that.
And as far as getting it from a dealer, you know, if a dealer is a good dealer and they do a lot of business, they're going to rotate their tippet material. They're going to run through their stock pretty quickly and rotate it. And you're right. You know, it could have been around there for a couple of years, but fly shops hopefully don't put their tippet material in the window where it's going to be exposed to ultraviolet light. I think even fluorescent light will degrade it. But a good fly shop is not going to keep tippet material around for a long time.
So you can experiment yourself. But if you want to be on the safe side, I would replace those nylon tippets at least every two years, regardless of whether you've gone through the whole spool or not. And you don't have to throw away the old spools of unused tippet. You can use it for ribs on flies when you're tying flies or just for practicing knots or something like that. So don't just throw it out, but make sure you use it for something.
Here's an email from Bruce from California. "Allow me to begin by saying I've been a loyal Orvis patron for many years now and had numerous interactions with the staff at Orvis, from phone questions about new rod conversations, about broken rod sections, Orvis travel, in-shop seminars, or visiting a shop in my travels, and every interaction has been like I was talking to my best friend. Your staff are amazing, but I felt I needed to tell you about someone special.
I'm leaving on another fly fishing adventure in two days, and typical of how I operate, I waited until the last minute to decide I needed something. So yesterday, I contacted my local Orvis shop in Pasadena at five minutes before closing to see if a rod I wanted was in stock. Unfortunately, it wasn't in their inventory, but they checked the stock at their sister store in Roseville, California, and let me know that they had two of what I was looking for, suggesting that I hang up and call the store immediately before they closed 6 p.m. However, I was a few minutes late and no answer.
I looked online and saw that Roseville Orvis didn't open until 11 a.m., and didn't think there was any way I could get it shipped to me that quickly. But I took a shot and called the store this morning at 10:30 a.m. I was shocked when I was greeted by the most friendly voice and thought to myself, "Who gets in early and answers the phone before opening hours anymore?"
Your store manager, Allison Waggoner, found the rod in her stock, took my payment information, got in her car, and drove my rod to FedEx, had it overnighted to me before opening hour of her store, and in time for my upcoming trip. She even called me from FedEx with my tracking number and wished me a great trip.
Allison went above and beyond today to make sure this happened, unlike we see in many other companies nowadays. Your employees care about us and you, and is the reason I will always be loyal to Orvis. Thanks for putting a smile on my face and many great memories, both past and present. One day, while passing by your Roseville store, I plan to stop in and shake Allison's hand for going above and beyond for one of her unknown loyal customers."
Well, that is a wonderful letter, Bruce. Thank you. And I passed it on to another people here at Orvis. But it's a good example of why e-commerce will never replace, and artificial intelligence will probably never replace a valuable person who really cares about the customer. And the good fly shops today are going to do stuff like that because, as I mentioned in a previous question, the fly fishing industry isn't that big, and every customer... If you're smart in the fly fishing industry, every customer is important to you, because there just aren't that many around compared to lots and lots of other industries and retail businesses. So really appreciate your letter. And again, I passed that on to a number of people here at Orvis, including our president.
Here's another email, and I forgot to write down the name. "Hey, Tom, recently, I've been messing with different leader formulas and styles and tying traditional knots like the clinch knot right to the loop. Well, unless I'm using something greater than 25-pound test line, I've observed cuts in the outer material of the fly line where the knot interfaces with the loop, unfortunately. Can I just dab some superglue onto these cuts to seal it up? Is there some proposal to integrate some sort of ring made of a harder material instead of the softer slide loop to prevent these incisions from ruining my fly line? I'm avoiding a loop-to-loop connection because I feel it's a hinge point or at least makes an abrupt variance in stiffness across the materials at the connection, impacting my presentation casting quality. Thanks."
Well, I use loop-to-loop connections for the most part. I loop my leaders to the fly line loop for nearly all of my fishing. But there's another way of doing it. If you don't like the loop-to-loop connection, instead of tying a clinch knot to your fly line loop, if you're using a standard leader, why don't you just nail-knot the leader to the fly line? That's going to give you a really clean connection, and I think it might make your presentation a little bit better. I don't notice the difference when I use a loop-to-loop connection, and it goes through the guides fine for me, but if that bothers you and if you think it makes a difference, then I would advise you to just nail-knot your leader to the fly line.
Now, if you change leaders frequently or maybe you're tying, like, I don't know, 12 pound or something to the fly line loop where it's going to cut into the fly line loop, what I would suggest is that you nail-knot a piece of 40, 50-pound monofilament to the fly line, put a loop in that, or better yet attach your leaders with a 3-turn blood knot, and then you got a really smooth connection and yet you don't have to cut off any part of your fly line.
Now, eventually, if you don't use a loop, you're going to have to cut back that little piece of monofilament, maybe 6 inches or so that you put on the end of your fly line, but it's going to give you a lot of leader changes before you have to cut that off and tie a new one on.
So you can try that, particularly if you're Euro-nymphing and you're tying like 4x directly to your fly line and you're using a long limp Euro leader, then why don't you nail-knot a piece of 40 or 50 pound, put a loop on that, and then you won't have the problem. But yes, with those cracks in your loop which you're going to get when you're tying smaller amount of filament to loop because it cuts into the coating, yeah, you can put a drop of superglue on there and it will hold for a while. It's not going to hold forever. But I think your better option is to go with some sort of nail-knot variant, and then you don't have to worry about cutting into the loop.
Here's an email from Dave. "Hello, Tom. I'm reaching out from western Massachusetts. A couple of questions on small stream fishing, blue lining. First, I've heard you say in one of your guide to fly fishing YouTube videos posted five years ago, as well as in some of your podcasts, you like a longer rod for small streams for their reach and holding line off the water. Yet in more recent videos, like your trip to Patagonia with Mark Melnyk, you said your favorite rod on that trip was a 7.5-foot 3-weight Helios, and fishing it was so much fun you and Mark were fighting over it.
In an interview with Leonard on "Wading Wisdom," you mentioned the Superfine 7.5 with 3-weight as your current favorite small stream rod. That being said, has your view on rod length and weight changed over time in regards to small streams as the technology advances? I fished the Superfine 7-foot 9-inch 2-weight, and I could not be happier with the rod. Job well done.
Second, when blue lining in your area and you know of or find a honey hole, how many times will you return to that hole in the season? If you do return, what are the time intervals you use? For example, a day, a week, a month, or only return the following year, to not overpressure the fish? Thank you in advance."
So Dave, you know, I guess I don't think a longer rod hinders you in small streams, you know, 8-foot or even a 9-foot rod, but in the really tight ones, sometimes a shorter rod is better. What I don't like on small streams are really short rods, like 6-footers or even 6.5-footers. I really prefer occasionally a 7-footer, but 7 to 8 feet long is what I like in small streams now. But again, if you don't have a lot of brush in your stream, you can get away with a much longer rod. And I kind of like that 7.5-foot rod because it's smaller and lighter, and it just seems to gauge better with the small fish and in small streams, and it's fun to carry around, it's fun to cast. So that's why I like that particular rod.
Regarding honey holes on small streams, I think if you rest them for a week, you're going to be fine. I don't think you need to wait for a month or especially a year. The fish are going to settle down, they're going to probably forget what happened, and maybe they won't come to the same fly, or maybe they will, but I think if you rest them for a week, you're going to be fine.
I wouldn't go back the next day because, yeah, the fish probably may not even be feeding after being hooked and played and released, but a week later, I wouldn't worry about it. You're not going to overpressure them, and if you're releasing all the fish, they're still going to be there, hopefully.
And finally, the last question is an email from Richard from Loveland, Colorado. "I truly appreciate your down-to-earth approach and have learned a lot from you and your guests over the years. I'm a long-time fly fisher, and I'm very into stocking big trout in rivers.
I have a few questions for you about hooks that break under pressure. I tie most of my own flies, including streamers, but do buy some commercially tied streamers for patterns I don't tie. I've noticed that hooks on some commercially tied articulated streamers tend to break at the hook bend fairly often when under pressure from big trout. I have friends that have broken hooks on the same flies and also with big trout. Conversely, I've never had a hook break on a streamer I've tied, and they appear to be the same gauge and size as the commercial hooks. And lastly, the hooks that are broken were on relatively new flies without rust or damage.
Why do some hooks bend while others break when they fail? Are hooks used on mass-produced commercial ties of lower quality, cheaper, more brittle steel, perhaps? If so, that's a bummer since those flies cost an arm and a leg, and I've lost some big pigs when they break. Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide. I wish you tight lines and strong hooks."
Well, Richard, there is nothing wrong with the hooks that most commercial operations tie their flies on. There are a couple of them out there, a couple companies whose flies have a reputation for hooks not being strong, and they are most likely buying cheaper hooks that are mass-produced somewhere in Asia. But there are lots of commercial fly producers that tie on the same quality hooks that you and I tie on.
So my advice is, first of all, to stay away from the brand where the hooks broke. That's probably not going to change because I have heard it. You mentioned a company in your email, and I left it out, but I've heard of hooks from that company breaking quite frequently.
And hook tempering is a pretty precise process, and so shortcuts can be taken. The hook needs to be tempered enough so that it won't break, it's not brittle, and then it won't bend under a lot of pressure. So that tempering process is very precise, and manufacturers of hooks that take shortcuts are going to make hooks that might either break or bend, depending on where they erred in the tempering process.
So I think that generally, if you have a hook that bends and you lose a fish because the hook bent out, that's probably a good hook, a good strong hook, and you just had a really heavy tippet on there, and you exceeded the wire strength of the hook. Hooks that break, though, that's a warning sign that the hooks were not properly produced. So anyway, buyer beware, and just pay attention to what company those commercial flies that you buy come from, and find one that you like, and I think you'll be satisfied.
All right. That is the fly box for this week. Let's go talk to Mike Ward about his permit fishing secrets. Well, my guest today is Mike Ward, and Mike, in a past life, was a fishing guide and now owns Adipose Boatworks in Helena, Montana. And I've had a lot of good times in Adipose boats over the years, Mike, and I have to tell you also that my Adipose baseball hat, the camo one that Justin gave me, Justin, your manager gave me years ago is my luckiest fishing hat. So I have very fond feelings for Adipose.
Mike: Well, that's amazing. I'm glad that that's the case. There's nothing better than a great lucky fishing hat.
Tom: Oh, yeah, that's my only superstition, but I'm pretty serious about it. So today, speaking of luck or skill or whatever, you recently reached a milestone in fly fishing that we want to talk about. Tell me about that milestone, Mike.
Mike: Yeah. Well, I have been chasing permit for quite a few years now, I believe about 19. And it's kind of a... A lot of people think of counting fish is crazy, but when you see how much effort goes into permit fishing, you understand a little bit more how much each one of them means, because you do go through a lot of time where... I mean, I think I've had 19 days in a row where I was up at 6:00 and off the water at 6:30 till I couldn't see without a fish just grinding.
Yeah, so the milestone. So Del Brown caught 513 permit in his life, and I had the chance to catch that many, and I got to do it on a bamboo rod and a old Seamaster reel.
Tom: Wow.
Mike: Yeah, which is pretty special. And it didn't seem like that was going to happen. We had quite a bit of wind, more than what I could use that cane rod in. And we got into this cove, and we still had a lot of wind, but it was behind us. And so the shot presented itself downwind, and it was going to be a waiting shot. My buddy wasn't able to hop in, so I hopped in and was able to tie the record and then... Yeah, so it was super cool to kind of do a tribute to something that I kind of grew up with is like, man, that's such a high number of permit.
Doesn't seem attainable, but I think, for me, it's just been a cool journey to have. And so I set my goal at 1,000 permits, which I did it probably after 100 and... I can't remember exactly, but... And everybody told me I was crazy. I felt like I was crazy because, like, I think I can do it. But it's required a lot of committed effort.
Tom: Yeah, for sure.
Mike: You can't catch them from the couch.
Tom: No, no, you can't. So you obviously have devoted the time and you have the means to chase permit all over the world. Not all of us can do that, but I am sure that you have learned some really cool things about feeding permit. And that's what I want to talk about today. Nobody is probably going to chase your record. I'm in the single digits, and I also count my permit, but it isn't hard to count. In fact, I can do it on one hand.
But let's talk about secrets to your success, because it's not... I mean, you've done it a lot. It's not just being there, but there's got to be other things you do. I have heard from people that you are one of the best at reading their body language.
Mike: Yeah, I feel like that's my strong suit. Yeah, I've seen guys who are better casters than me, but going back to what you and I were talking about, carp fishing, that's one of the things that I would really work on when I wasn't able to permit fish. Early on, I was a guide in Montana, and I kind of used that. I mean, I love to carp fish, so it's not like...
So I was doing a workout regimen to get better for permit. I just loved carp fishing. But it has a lot of similarities in the way that they eat to the way that permit eat. And so I think I got to constantly learn from fish. And carp fishing was kind of my supplemental when I couldn't permit fish. So I felt like I got to be pretty good at feeding those, and I think a lot of that is just transferred into the permit fishing.
And like you said, getting to fish different places around the world, being fortunate enough to be able to do that. Every place is different, and you pick up things, different places that... One of the interesting things about permit, for me, there's thousands... It's infinite amount of interesting things about permit, but you can't take one thing and make it true throughout the species. By location, by species of permit, they all have small differences, and just trying to figure those out and putting the pieces together is... I'm still challenged by it all the time.
Tom: So I know this is probably difficult to articulate because you're probably almost intuitive in it, but how do you read their body language, and what do you do as a result of seeing what you're seeing, if that makes sense?
Mike: Yeah. So at the end, it's like playing cat and mouse, right? The cat has this behavior where it looks at a feather or whatever you're playing with. Eventually, you can get that cat to pounce on that item. And with permits, it's pretty similar, depending on... Everybody says, "Okay, well, when you cast them to a permit, what do you...?" It's not that easy of a question because every situation is different. But some of the things... Yeah. So some of the things that you want to look at is the speed. Is the permit sitting in one place? Is he tailing? Is he staying in a small area? Is he cruising? Is he hauling out of an area at 8 miles an hour?
So it's like finding the speed of that fish, and then a lot through trial and error. Does he want a faster strip? Does he want a slower strip? Does he want it to fall? And you go through a series of enough shots, and you start putting those pieces together.
But like I said, it's not the same thing. You can't just cast a fish, long strip once, wait, long strip again, say, "God save the queen," and then you have a permit. This doesn't work that way. So if you can be locked in on your target and see how they're reacting to your fly, I definitely think it's going to set you up for success.
Tom: Okay. So if you're in a flat and you never fished there before, so you don't know the permit's habits, and you see a fish moving fairly fast, what's your first option for retrieves?
Mike: So as best as I could, I'd want to have a crossing shot so I can intercept them. If they're coming right at me, it's hard to get an exact line on them. It's easier, especially with a fish that's cruising fast, to have a little bit of an angle so you can kind of anticipate where he's going to be and try and cross that fly in front of him. And then giving it a little bit bigger lead if he's moving fast and just trying to get him on an intersection to where the fly is crossing his face.
Tom: And do you want it dropping usually when it crosses his face or moving?
Mike: So that goes back... I think that goes a little bit into piecing that out, because sometimes it's different. So I feel like sometimes they want it faster, and I think it usually coincides with a little warmer water. I think that the prey species start moving around more when it's warm, or are faster when it's warm.
So a lot of times in warmer water, you can strip a little bit faster than what I think a lot of people would assume. And part of that is just paying attention to, like, I'm fishing to this fish, I'm manipulating my fly, I'm kind of moving it slow, he doesn't see it, he doesn't like it, I go for a back cast. Well, if that fish spins and come racing at your fly, he probably wants that fly faster. If that's the one thing that enticed that fish, then that's a good piece of the puzzle right there, right?
Tom: Okay, yeah, yeah, I see that. Now, you want a crossing shot. Are permit like most other fish that you want the crossing to be slightly going away and not coming at the fish?
Mike: Correct. Correct. Just like almost any fish, a fly going towards the fish is usually a bad thing.
Tom: Yep, okay, okay. And if you can generalize, and I know this is tough, but when do you want just a fly falling in front of the permit as opposed to swimming away?
Mike: That's a good question. I think a lot of falling is, like, when you have tailing fish, when they're concentrating in an area. I think just letting it fall as they're kind of getting their head out of the mud, they get off their feet, and they see a fly fall, it's easy for them to just go over and pick it up. And sometimes it's a combination of both. Sometimes they want to see it skirt away a couple of times, and then as soon as it falls, then they'll come over and pick it up. So it's not kind of a one-size-fits-all program.
And I think that there's not a whole lot of...there's no substitute other than spending a lot of time doing it, which also makes it very challenging. If you can get in a week or two a year, it's hard to build that base up of what you've seen and what you've seen work.
Tom: Yeah. And that's the kind of people we're trying to help here, right, are those people who maybe get a week a year.
Mike: A hundred percent.
Tom: Yeah. So...
Mike: And part of it, for me, is like somebody who loves the learning aspect. Like, I don't want to cheat people, but I also want to help. You know what I mean? Cheat people by giving them things that they haven't spent the time learning on their own. But the reason that you just mentioned is the reason that I enjoy doing this and helping people that don't get a chance to spend a whole lot of time in salt water.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you learn more by making mistakes, but the problem is that you only have a week and you don't want to make too many mistakes, right?
Mike: Yep.
Tom: So are there any times, Mike, when you don't retrieve the fly, you just let it sit on the bottom and let the fish pick it up? Does that work?
Mike: I have a really hard time doing that. I'm not very good at sitting in one place. I like to move, and I like to cover water. So for me, that's really hard to do. I think there are some scenarios where that can work really well. I just don't spend a whole lot of my time doing it.
Tom: Okay. Okay. And then their main foods are crabs and shrimp, right?
Mike: So there's been a recent BTT study of the keys specifically, and it did range from the upper keys to the lower keys. But I think hermit crabs and snails were the top two. I may not have that right, but it's available.
Tom: Well, those are tough to imitate, both of those.
Mike: Exactly.
Tom: Damn.
Mike: It goes back to your question of, like, can you let it sit? It's like, "Oh, it's going to be very painful." But I have definitely seen... Dawes and I were on a trip to the Seychelles, and we were literally covered by over 1,000 fish, and they were tailing. But when they tailed, their tail would go straight up and their tail would go straight back down. There wasn't any movement. There wasn't any wiggle. So I think that they were just picking up, whether it was a hermit crab, a small clam, I'm not sure, a brittle star. We didn't know exactly what it was, but we could tell that whatever they were eating was static. So I definitely think there's scenarios where leaving your fly there would work. It just takes a lot more patience than what I have.
Tom: And do they eat bait fish occasionally?
Mike: They do. Yep, they do. Brandon Cyr told me that one of the... They've done the fin clippings from permit, and they can tell that, and I think the anal swab, they can tell the diet of the permit. And one of the permit had a bluegill.
Tom: A bluegill?
Mike: A bluegill. I was like, "What?"
Tom: Oh, my God.
Mike: I'd love to see that go down. A bluegill hatch.
Tom: Yeah. Well, I know one of my permit was caught on a surf candy, so, I mean, they...
Mike: Oh, there you go.
Tom: ...could have taken it for a shrimp or something else, but yeah. Do you ever use bait fish invitations for permit, or do you stick to more traditional things?
Mike: Yeah. I mean, I've used a white Clouser before, but that's been pretty... And it was just on... It's not something I regularly do, but... And I wasn't successful getting one on. So I don't think I've ever caught a...I've never caught a permit on a bait fish batter.
Tom: Okay. So you're mainly trying to imitate crabs or shrimp?
Mike: Correct. Yes.
Tom: And how do you tell which food they're on? Or can you tell?
Mike: I think it goes back to kind of behavior a little bit, on are they slow cruising the bottom, or are they up high, like, looking for crabs, or are they up higher moving around faster than I think they're...? Higher chance that they're looking for shrimp or something that's swimming fast, just by watching their speed.
Tom: Yep. Okay. And let's talk about flies, because that's what everybody thinks is the secret. And I suspect it probably isn't, but let's talk a little bit about fly selection for permit.
Mike: Yeah. I'd say most of the time, I'm fishing a crab, probably 65% to 75% of the time. And I've seen the fly really matter. Just last week at Blacksmith, I caught a fish. They were hooked to fish. And when my line was clear, my line came up in a really big knot. I must have made a mistake on managing my line, but we had a decent amount of wind, and the line was going everywhere. So this fish came, the knot got to the eyes of the rod, and I thought it was going to clear. Well, it wasn't going to clear.
And so I ended up breaking that fly off, and I knew I had one more, or I thought I had one more of the exact same fly in my bag. And at the time, there was kind of two schools, and they're both nice fish and both probably 30 to 45 fish in each school. And so instead of taking the time grabbing that other fly, I just grabbed another rod, threw that rod, didn't want it. I had multiple shots. Next rod, same thing. Next rod, same thing. Couldn't find the fly, so I grabbed something else that was on my boat bag.
I probably threw, I don't know, seven, eight flies, and finally I was like, "Okay, they're still here." And I went through every one of my boxes, found that fly, and hide that fly on, first cast in, get one. So I definitely think there are times where they really want one thing. I mean, I'm sure you've seen that in your trout fishing as well, when they only want an emerging size, you know, 16, TMD, or whatever.
Tom: Yeah. So do you have secret patterns that you use, or are you willing to share the patterns that you prefer?
Mike: You know, that's one of the hard things, is being a tournament angler. I'd love to share all my information, but I also want to have a little bit of an advantage, so I don't want to say everything. So I do have some things that are a little bit more secretive, and that's the only reason why, is the tournaments.
Tom: Yep. Okay. Fair enough.
Mike: Yeah. But that being said, that fly is like a combo of a Raghead and a Strong Arm. It's just something that I came up with that works really good for the fishery where we're at. And I have different flies for different places that worked, and part of it, you know, too, is sometimes it's just having confidence in the fly.
You talk to a lot of steelhead fishermen, and they're like, "Black and purple, black and purple," and you're like, "Oh, okay, black and purple." Like, that's the only thing I'm getting them on, is black and purple. And then my next question is always, "Well, what else did you throw?" Like, "I didn't throw anything else." So, well, of course, black and purple is going to be the only thing you caught them on. That's all you're throwing, you know.
And so that's also true for permit fishing. Like, if I have a fly that I really want to throw, I'm not going to just give it one shot, take it off, and then throw again. I want to see three or four fish, see the fly, and...like, heat it before I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to switch."
Tom: Yep. Yeah, that makes total sense. And how about sink rates for the fly patterns you like? Do you have them in various sink rates?
Mike: Yeah, usually, like... And really, the sink rate's more, for me, on the depth that you're fishing. So if you're fishing...if they're up really skinny, and you have a heavier fly, that fly is going to just sink right through that water column and be on the bottom, and they don't really have a time to see it and pick it up. If it's 12, 15 inches of water, and your fly's got, you know, medium lead eyes on it, they're going to see it for a tenth of a second. So it's all about just kind of getting that drop to match your depth of water, for me.
Tom: Okay. What size range do you use for permit? You know, not hook size, but...
Mike: Beside the fly?
Tom: Yeah, diameter of your crabs. How wide do you go?
Mike: So on hook size, I usually fish a 2, 4, or a 6. And so I'd say the smallest on a 6 would be like a pinky nail, and then the bigger on a size 2 would be like somebody with big hands, like a thumbnail.
Tom: Okay. Or like a quarter size, maybe.
Mike: Exactly.
Tom: Okay. That's pretty small, pretty... Those are fairly small flies, as compared to some of the commercial flies that you see. They're quite a bit bigger, you know, like half-dollar size.
Mike: Yeah, I definitely like the smaller side than the big side. And a lot of this is easier to throw. If you get a big fly, it's got a lot of wind resistance. So the good...or the permit days that I prefer have a little bit of wind to it. So you get a fly that is hard to throw into the wind, it's definitely not an advantage.
Tom: Yeah. And then, for shrimp patterns, do you have any of those you can share, or are they secret, too?
Mike: You know, I don't have a shrimp pattern that I really love. I wish I did. But I have a bunch in my box. And the problem for me with a lot of shrimp flies is the legs get caught, they get wrapped. And so a lot of times you'll see a fish that's just, like, looking, looking, looking at your fly, doesn't commit, you bring it back in, you look at your fly, and you got five rubber legs wrapped around the hook, which drives me crazy.
Tom: It's amazing that it makes that much difference, isn't it? Just one little rubber leg wrapped around the bend, and the fish won't take it. I can never figure that out.
Mike: Yeah. It's such a small thing. And maybe it doesn't, but to me it does. You know, like, if the fish doesn't eat it, maybe he wouldn't have eaten it when the legs were good either. But it's just one of those things that kind of gets into your head. And, you know, I just lose confidence in it.
Tom: So let's work up from the fly. What kind of leader do you use? What pound test? What length? I assume you're using fluorocarbon.
Mike: Yep. I use fluoro. I usually use, like, 9 to 11-foot leaders. And it kind of depends on your wind a little bit. If I got wind, I like a 9-foot because it makes those shorter shots more accurate. You get an 11-foot leader and a 15-mile-an-hour wind and a 25-foot shot, that's a pretty tough combo. So I like to shorten down my leaders when it's windy and then go a little bit longer when it's slick.
Tom: Okay. And what pound tippet do you usually have on the end?
Mike: Oh, yeah. Usually, I fish 12. I'm pretty much on 12 all the time.
Tom: Wow. That's light compared to what most people use for permit.
Mike: Yeah. And it goes back to sink rate. I think the 12 just cuts through the water a lot more. I think I use it more for sink rate, honestly, than I do for them seeing it. I think it just drops a little bit quicker.
Tom: Yep. Interesting. And it lands a little lighter, too, which may sometimes make a difference. Huh. Well...
Mike: And then, for a dry fly, I'll go 16, even 20 pounds. Doesn't seem to matter as much as when the fly is on the surface as far as tests. And then if you go...like, if you fish 12 pounds... Fishing a hopper on, you know, 4x is just going to spin like crazy.
Tom: Yep. So dry fly. So you're doing... I keep hearing more about permit on the surface. Tell me a little bit about that.
Mike: Yeah. You know, it's the coolest thing you'll ever see. For anybody that's seen it happen once, they know exactly what I'm talking about. The permit, when they come up... Because if you just think about the shape of a permit, they got to lift up their forehead out of water. They got to lift up their eyeballs. And their last thing to come up is their mouth. So it's pretty cool to, you know, see the fish, throw the fly out, and get them to come look at the fly. And then when they come up, they're just like the slow elevation. And then right as they get their head up, they suck the fly in. And it's one of the coolest things to see. And any fishing that I've done, it's incredible.
Tom: It's got to be tough to steel yourself to wait for the fly to disappear, though.
Mike: It is very hard. Just last week, I had a buddy from Spokane down with me to Blacksmith. And the day that we got to share a day in the boat together, we had this group of three fish. He throws a dry fly, strips it, I think twice. Fish sees it, turns, comes over to it, and just eats it like a jack. I mean, and when it happened, he kind of gave it a trout and strip set at the same time. He lifted the rod and stripped together. I mean, it was one of those moments where I was in the middle of the boat, extremely excited. Like, I totally get it.
And he's newer to the saltwater game. And so as he did it, the fly probably came out 7, 8 feet and stopped again. As the fish sees the fly, our guide, Walter, was like, "Craig, Craig, don't move the rod. Don't move the rod." And it fell upon deaf ears because the permit came up. And I've never seen something eat it more violently.
Tom: Wow.
Mike: And the same thing. He lifted the rod. But just to see that...
Tom: Oh, my God.
Mike: ...is one of the coolest things you'll ever see. It's incredible.
Tom: So are they eating floating crabs on the surface?
Mike: Yeah, I've got them on crabs and shrimp on the surface.
Tom: Wow.
Mike: You know, a lot of it's with Sargassum. A lot of life is in that weed. And when that weed starts coming in really thick, there's just a lot of food up on the surface that they're keying into.
Tom: So is that why we're hearing more about permit on the surface because of the increase in amounts of Sargassum weed?
Mike: Definitely. From what I've seen, I've seen them... I probably caught my first permit on dry fly about 10 years ago, after...I think I had something like 30, 32, or 34 fish eat the dry fly without hooking one. And part of that is, you know, exactly what makes it really exciting. You get this big submarine forehead coming out of the water, but they push a lot of water as they're coming. And so a lot of times, that fly kind of gets swept. It's kind of like watching a bridge piling in current. It kind of has that big push right in front of it. And so sometimes that fly just pushes off to the side, and they're not able to grab it.
Tom: Now, what do you use for...? Do you use foam or deer hair? What do you use for a floating crab or shrimp?
Mike: Foam.
Tom: Foam. Okay.
Mike: Yeah. It's foam. So like a gurgler style on a shrimp and then... Yeah, I'm going to Australia tomorrow night, and I just spun up... I've spent the last two and a half days, excuse me, just locking myself to my tying desk and tied up quite a few dry flies, and hopefully, we can make it happen.
Tom: Wow. So it's kind of like a gurgler, huh?
Mike: Yeah. So the shrimp's more like a gurgler, and then the crab is more of...it's just like a foam carapace. Take a foam and cut it to shape, trim it, and then, you know, add claws, add legs. Yeah. And it's still like... I still think there's a lot to learn about it. But my buddy has some permit in his aquarium in Key West, and it's really cool to watch those fish. And granted, their food is coming from the surface, but the permit look to the surface a lot, you know. And when you're out fishing, you see them come up and they eat stuff on the surface, or they're cruising really close to the surface.
So it's one of those things where, you know, we're going back to, you know, if you get one week a year, is that something that you really want to throw? And so when you have one thing that's working, it's hard to be like, "Okay, let's do this and see what happens," right?
Tom: Yeah. Wow. All right. So next would be the fly line. Do you have a fly line that you prefer for permit, and line size?
Mike: You know, it's changed over the years. I usually have, you know, one line that I really love, and I run it for two to five years, and then I find something else. But lately, I've really... My favorite line right now would be the SA infinity salt.
Tom: The clear one?
Mike: The clear one.
Tom: Yeah. I love that line too.
Mike: It's such a great line. You can just do everything. Like, I could throw a extra small or bead chain fly on a long leader, a short leader. I can throw a dry fly. Like, that line does everything, and it does it really well.
Tom: Yeah, I agree. Now, do guides get upset with you for using a clear line sometime? Because I know some guides don't like it because they can't tell where the fly is often.
Mike: Not the guides that I fish with. But I'm pretty cued in on where my fly is. But it is... I mean, and I get it. When I was a guide down in Missouri, I had this guy that would always show up, one of the best anglers I've ever seen. He'd always show up with these, you know, 22-foot leaders that he brought from New Zealand. And, you know, we're throwing tricos. I'm like, "I have no idea where your fly is." You just threw a 70-foot cast and we're looking for, you know, a size 20. Not happening. So I get it from the guiding standpoint. It's really hard to tell someone where their fly is if they don't know.
Tom: Yeah. But I think it makes you a better angler because it makes you pay more attention to where your fly is landing instead of watching the tip of the line. I find that anyway.
Mike: And I feel like you can get away with a little bit more when you have a school that's kind of spread out, and you throw a clear line over...you know, say there's a lead fish that you just didn't see. If you throw a clear line over that fish, you have a shot at, you know, being in the game, versus you threw a hot pink fly line out there and you got zero shots if they're not going to pick that up.
Tom: Yep. Now, how about rods? What length and line size do you like in permit rod?
Mike: So I've been using 10 weights, and I've kind of just switched to just 10 weights. So when I'm fishing, most of the time I'll have 3 or four 10s in that rig. And I used to fish a lot of 9s, and I was like 9s probably 80% of the time, but I find that with a 10, I can still do everything that I can with my 9. But when I'm with my 9 and that wind gets up to, you know, 17 to 20 miles an hour, and the fish goes upwind, you know, it makes those shots a lot harder to execute where you have the power of the 10.
Tom: Yeah. And crabs are fairly wind-resistant, as you said. So it makes a difference. All right. Well, that's a pretty good... We didn't get you to give the pattern for your secret fly, but I understand that. But anything else that you would recommend to someone who is chasing permit? Did I miss anything?
Mike: One of the best advice I can give somebody is to breathe when you get excited, at least, and this is something that I just found myself doing, and then I can see it in other people. But when you stop breathing, your heart rate increases, and when your heart rate increases, you rush everything. And so that's usually why you're giving all that, like you're just melting down and you're flustered and...because you're racing everything. Just take... When you see a permit and you have time, give yourself three to five just good, deep, long breaths. Calm down. It's just a fish, right? It's already hard enough. Don't fight yourself.
Tom: Did you breathe on number 513?
Mike: I definitely was breathing, for sure. I usually... You know, I've gotten to a pretty good pattern now. But part of it, too, is like, you know, I really like fishing with guys that are calm. I fish better when I'm calm. And if somebody is like, "Oh, my God, he's huge. He's coming at you 2:00," you know, like, that's not helping me.
Tom: No, not helping anyone.
Mike: No, it's not helping anyone. So being calm in the moment, being as relaxed as you can be, and taking your time. Don't rush that last cast.
Tom: Yeah. I remember Will Benson telling me once that he thought that too much commotion would spook the permit. And so you need to slow down a little bit just to get a better shot at them, besides being relaxed, but just all the motion in the boats, probably not a good thing.
Mike: Yeah. Motion in the boat, noise from the boat, you know, rocking the boat. You're sending out those waves. Definitely not helping your cause.
Tom: Yeah. All right, Mike. Well, that is some really good stuff. You've got me excited about permit fishing. I don't know when I'm going to go next, but they're quite a fish. I'm going to have to settle for carp for the near future, but...
Mike: Hey, that's a good substitute.
Tom: Yeah, another round of that. Another round of that. But thank you so much for taking the time today and sharing your knowledge.
The Lake comes up and The Lake goes down.
Like the sun on my hometown.
Red Clay Mud is hallowed ground.
The Lake comes up and The Lake goes down.
Said that the power they would generate.
Would revolutionize our state.
A brand new deal from TVA.
But Loyston town was in the way.
Folks drove up from Knoxville so to see.
Man stop a river with concrete.
The men work hard in the summer heat.
Unless the wall should ever leak.
The Lake comes up and The Lake goes down.
Like the sun on my hometown.
Red Clay Mud is hallowed ground.
The Lake comes up and The Lake goes down.
The name they chose was Norris Lake.
And I watched a dam take shape.
Gentle shoals turned into waves.
Empty holes our flooded graves.
The water rolled up through the hills.
It washed away the soil I tilled.
It washed away the house I built.
Foundation blocks now sandy silt.
The Lake comes up and The Lake goes down.
Like the sun on my hometown.
Red Clay Mud is hallowed ground.
The Lake comes up and The Lake goes down.
Old Clinch River sent below.
The valley floor that I've always known.
And I moved my family to a home.
With electric power and a telephone.
The blackest sky on a winter's night.
Is by far a warmer sight.
Than that pale green glowing light.
Seen from the shores of my birthright.
The Lake comes up and The Lake goes down.
Like the sun on my hometown.
Red Clay Mud is hallowed ground.
The Lake comes up and The Lake goes down.
Summertime on the Loyston Sea.
And you'd forget what you cannot see.
And there's a town that lies buried.
Beneath your boats and your water skis.
Well, out of sight and out of my mind.
Is my town that I left behind.
Dive down deep but all you'll find.
Are broken dreams and fishing lines.
Say The Lake comes up and The Lake goes down.
Like the sun on my hometown.
Red clay mud is hallowed ground.
The Lake comes up and the lake goes down.
Say The Lake comes up and The Lake goes down.
Like the sun on my hometown.
Red Clay Mud is hallowed ground.
Say the Lake comes up and The Lake goes down.
[01:31:32]
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