The 50-Year History of Orvis Graphite Fly Rods, with Tom Rosenbauer
Podcast Transcript:
Tom: Hi, and welcome to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast". This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. And my guest this week is me. I've been wanting to do a podcast on the 50-year history of Orvis Graphite rods. [00:00:30.143] And, you know, I kind of have a rule in the podcast, is that the guest has to know more about me than a subject. And you know what? Since I've lived through 49 of those 50 years at Orvis, and I just spent two months researching the history of Orvis Graphite rods, I guess, I'm the most qualified. So, I got to be my guest today. And luckily, Reid Bryant, host of "The Orvis Wingshooting Podcast" [00:01:00.440] has agreed to come over to the house and interview me. So, hope you enjoy it. I have really enjoyed doing the research for this. And I know you're going to find out some things that you never knew about Orvis Graphite rods.
And before we get to the Fly Box, I wanted to give you some hints on some places you might want to visit with this being close to the end of the season for a lot of places, probably planning for next [00:01:30.322] season. But thank you for a number of people who have recently written to me in the podcast mailbox and thank me for recommending Orvis-endorse guides and lodges and outfitters on the podcast. They've booked trips with these outfits and have had a great time. So, I appreciate those emails, and I'm going to give you three more today.
The first one is a lodge and it's [00:02:00.120] Spotted Bear Ranch. They have been an Orvis-endorsed lodge for a long, long time. And they have a great remote location. It's on the Wild and Scenic South Fork of the Flathead River, and it's tucked away in the Bob Marshall Wilderness. You probably heard of that area. They have daily floats for wild and native West Slope cutthroats. And you can also wade in smaller streams and rivers for them. So, you can either take a float [00:02:30.043] trip or a wade trip. These are great fish. They're highly surface-oriented fish. So, if you really like to fish dry flies, this is a place you want to go. If you really want to fish dry flies in a pristine wilderness location for native cutthroats, this is the place to go.
It's also one of the few places in the lower 48 states where you can legally target giant bull trout. So, if you've always wanted to catch a bull trout, this is the place to go and do it legally. [00:03:00.295] Most places in the lower 48, you're not allowed to target bull trout. And the Spotted Bear Ranch has six comfortable and rustic guest cabins, but it's a wilderness experience, but with five-star amenities and meals prepared by a master chef. So, they can provide all the gear and flies you need, or you can bring your own. But if you're looking for this kind of experience, I highly recommend [00:03:30.812] Spotted Bear Ranch.
Our outfitter this week is the Tackle Shop in Ennis, Montana. And if you've been to Ennis, you know it's one of the nicest towns in Montana. It's just a cool, little town. Lots of fly shops and just kind of a laid-back, genuine Montana town. Tackle Shop are experts, of course, on the famous Madison. They're located [00:04:00.114] probably, I don't know, 100 yards from the river. But they also fish the Yellowstone, the Big Hole, the Beaverhead, the Jefferson, the Missouri, and the Ruby. And they've got a lot of lesser-known, small streams where you can walk away and catch smaller, but more eager, and probably easier fish. The Tackle Shop was established in 1937. So, it's the oldest fly shop in southwestern Montana. And they've got a [00:04:30.109] bit of experience. The current owner, John Way, is a longtime Montana guide and outfitter with lots of experience in fly fishing throughout Montana. And if you're bringing along someone who doesn't fish, they can also book whitewater rafting trips, horseback rides, hiking trips, or they can also pick you up at one of the regional airports. So, it's a full-service tackle shop and it's a great place.[00:05:00.120]
Our guide this week is Captain Todd Ziels. And Todd fishes in the Florida Keys on a marathon. And I'm going to tell you that finding a great Keys guide can be difficult. There are all levels of, shall we say, patience and experience amongst Florida Keys guides. There are a lot of them there. But I'm telling you, your best bet is to hire a guide who's Orvis-endorse so you know you're going to get the [00:05:30.091] best experience possible in this truly unique part of the United States. I know a lot of people go to the Keys on vacation and they want to spend a day fly fishing. And you want to make sure you get the right guide.
Captain Ziels has been described by his clients as knowledgeable, patient, stealthy, and witty. These are not qualities you find in all Florida Keys guides, but they're what I look for in a Florida Keys guides. And with Captain Ziels, you can catch [00:06:00.059] tarpon, bonefish, permit, jacks, shark, snook, redfish, and barracuda. Not all of them on one day, but they are all variously available depending on the season. This is year-round fishery, weather permitting, so a trip here can be enjoyed just about any time you're in the Florida Keys.
All right, one more thing, one more thing before we get to the Fly Box. I know you're chomping at the bit to get the Fly Box, but [00:06:30.989] I got something I'm personally excited about that I want to tell you about. In the past couple weeks, Orvis has launched a line of merino base layer. It's called Outbound. And I'm telling you that I have fallen in love with this stuff. I love merino. I've been wearing merino as a base layer, and actually, just as T-shirts and as lightweight shirts [00:07:00.045] for a long, long time. I believe it's better than any kind of plastic, synthetic stuff that you can wear.
And I find that it stays cool in all, but the hottest weather. The blue merino feels just as soft as cotton and it's a great base layer for cooler days underneath some heavier stuff. I literally live in merino pretty much. And I'm really, really excited [00:07:30.057] about the new Orvis line of merino. The long sleeve hoodie is a great one for fishing days. There's a quarter zip coming in a couple of weeks and there are short sleeve T-shirts available now. Look for that outbound merino. You're going to live in this stuff if you spend any time outdoors. I actually wear it out to dinner, but you may dress a little more formally than I do.
All right, let's do the Fly Box [00:08:00.698] now. Fly Box is where you ask me questions and I try to answer them. I try to find an answer for you. Or sometimes I take comments or tips. If you want to pass on a tip to the rest of the listeners, if I think it's a valuable tip, I'll read it on the air. And you can send your questions to
Ian: [00:08:30.086] Hi, Tom. This is Ian from Maine. Thanks for all you do on the podcast. It's such a wonderful learning experience. You recently had a caller on the Fly Box ask about an antique bamboo rod in Carlingford and it reminded me of my own question. I inherited an antique bamboo rod and an antique fiberglass rod that belonged to my grandfather. They date to the 1940s and '50s and I have the accompanying reels, and I'd like to get these back into use, but I'm struggling to figure out what kind [00:09:00.206] of line to put on these. I'm able to figure out what the corresponding weight is, 5 weight and 6 weight that go with the old silk line, but I'm getting lots of mixed advice online about double tapers versus weight forward versus other ways of structuring the line. So, I'd love some advice from you about what types of line to put on these antique rods. Thank you.
Tom: So, Ian, a lot of the [00:09:30.052] modern fly lines tend to be half size heavy or sometimes even a full line size heavy. I know it doesn't make sense to buy a 5 weight line that's a full size heavy. It doesn't make sense to me, but it's done because graphite rods, some of the graphite that are sold today are quite stiff and they need a little bit more weight to bring out the action and make them flex properly. [00:10:00.168] But for those older antique bamboo and fiberglass rods, you want what most manufacturers are going to call a standard trout taper. You don't want one that's a half line size heavy or a full line size heavy, definitely. So, if you go for the standard, true-to-spec fly lines, they're usually called trout tapers, that's going to be the best match for your old [00:10:30.018] bamboo and fiberglass rods.
And whether you buy a weight forward or double taper is really up to you. The standard weight forward and double tapers are the same for the first 30 to 35 feet, the exact same taper. So, it only comes into play when you're making longer casts than that. So, double tapers are great because you can reverse them and you can double the life of your line. Double tapers will hold more line in the air on [00:11:00.113] a long, false cast. So, if you do a lot of dry fly fishing and you're false casting with quite a bit of line in the air, sometimes a is nice. Double taper, also, if you need to make a long roll cast, we'll do a better job for you. And weight forward lines are a little bit better in punching through the wind. And also, if you're making longer casts, let's say 50 feet or more, weight forward lines shoot better. So, [00:11:30.141] weight forward line is probably better if you're making longer casts. But again, if you're not casting over 35 feet, it really doesn't matter whether you choose a weight forward or a double taper.
All right. Here is email number one from Jeff, "Hi, Tom. I have a question about a puzzling hatch I saw in Penns Creek recently. I was fishing in the evening in a large pool that had relatively slow current flowing through it. The trout were very active [00:12:00.077] and shooting out of the water doing a full breach a couple of feet in the air. I know this is usually an indication they're feeding on emerging caddis. However, I did not see any caddis flies around me. I tried some caddis patterns I had, but none seemed to work. The smallest I had was a 16. Since I could not see the bugs, I thought perhaps they were micro caddis. I tied on a few midge soft tackles and was able to catch a few of the smaller fish. But the large ones, and there were several, seemed to elude me.
Another part of the [00:12:30.054] frustration is that the rises were sporadic and never seemed to be in the same place twice. So, I could not really target specific fish because they moved around so much. Does this sound like a micro caddis hatch? How would you fish this scenario? I should also mention I typically fish three soft tackle patterns spaced 3 feet apart on a 12 foot leader. These are all tied on light wire dry fly hooks. But do you think that casting three flies into relatively calm water is detrimental [00:13:00.041] to presentation? I was primarily casting upstream and across and down to these fish. Thank you for your help, and I hope your creeks are not as low and dry as ours are in Pennsylvania right now."
Well, Jeff, I got bad news for you, our streams are as low as I have seen them in my 50 years in Vermont. So, yeah, we've got very, very low water. And the fish seem to be holding up well. I think because our nights have been [00:13:30.054] cool, so the water temperatures have stayed okay. But it's got to stress the fish and the predators probably have an easier time getting at them. So, we'll see what happens next season. Regarding these rises that you see, you know, that's a real perplexing one. And I used to see this. I remember when I was a teenager and I fished this stream probably four or five days a week. I knew that if I went to this certain pool at first light, [00:14:00.041] I would see the fish doing this, completely clearing the water and jumping out. And I didn't see anything on the water either. I doubt that it was micro caddis.
So, there's a couple things that it could have been. Well, the one thing that comes to mind, first of all, are crane flies. You know, you don't notice crane flies because they kind of buzz across the surface of the water, but they do come back to the water [00:14:30.025] to lay their eggs. They hatch in the mud. They kind of crawl out because they live in the mud along the margins of the stream. But they do come back to the water to lay their eggs, and they do buzz across the surface. And you might not notice them even though they're fairly big. But, you know, you just kind of ignore them as kind of noise that it's not a mayfly. It's not a cat fly. It's not a midge, not a stone fly. But I suspect that sometimes when fish do this, they are chasing [00:15:00.222] crane flies in the air.
The other thing that I sometimes suspect is damselflies, damselflies and even dragonflies. I've seen fish in other parts of the world, and actually, I've seen them on the Henry's Fork and on the Missouri jumping for damselflies to try to get them out of the air because it's a pretty big piece of meat. So, it could have been one of those things. And then also, if you'll allow me the luxury of giving you a kind of [00:15:30.007] a wild theory that I used to have, I'm not so sure if I believe it anymore. But I kind of thought that, particularly those fish that were doing this early in the morning, that they were eating crayfish. And then when the crayfish pinched them, when they were inside them, they jumped out of the water to try to dislodge them. Now, that is not a scientific theory, that's definitely a wild guess. But anyway, I don't think they were eating micro caddis. I think if they're eating micro caddis, [00:16:00.0170] it would have been a lot more subtle rise. And what they do when they're jumping out of the water, I have never heard a really good explanation for it. So, it may be one of those mysteries that we'll never figure out.
Here's an email from Clarence, "I just sent a photo of two hooks, both size 14. The Mustad Apex wide CW58XSAP is so much bigger than the Daiichi 1560. Can you explain [00:16:30.061] why sizes vary so much? I understand that wide gap hooks are bigger, but this much bigger? Does each manufacturer have their idea regarding hook size? Is there no standard? Thanks for all you do.
Yeah, Clarence, I'm afraid there is no standard and it is frustrating. The best thing that you can do is figure out how big you want your fly to be, and then find a hook that matches that shank length. You know, [00:17:00.041] you might want a wide gap for better hooking qualities. You might want a heavy, wide gap for sinking the fly better. But there is no standard whatsoever. There used to be sort of a standard that the Mustad 94840 dry fly hook was the standard length and the standard gap. But that's really gone out the window. And, yeah, there is no rhyme, no reason [00:17:30.361] to the way manufacturers size their hooks. And I hope that someday someone comes up with a standard. But right now, there is none, so you got to really look at each and every hook and figure out if it's the one you want to use. That's the best I can tell you.
Here's an email from Jake from Boston, "How do I get a good whip finish and apply head cement without messing up the collar on small nymphs? I feel I'm not supposed to leave a noticeable patch of thread between the [00:18:00.048] bead and the collar on a nymph. I can't seem to finish these small flies without doing one of or both of the following, leaving a noticeable patch of thread between the collar and the bead, or getting head cement resin all over the collar. Am I doing something wrong? Is there a way to properly finish flies I'm not aware of? These flies fish fine. I catch a lot of tailwater trout on them, but they just look a little sloppy sometimes."
Well, Jake, I don't really think you have to worry about it. But if it bothers [00:18:30.100] you, and you know, as a fly tire, these things bother us, one of the things that I do is when I put a fur collar on a beadhead and I don't want the thread to show, I leave it just a little bit loose. I dub it just a little bit loose. And then when I whip finish, I kind of pull the whip finish into the bead. So, I kind of I kind of pull it towards [00:19:00.014] the bead so that when I finish the whip finish, it's hidden underneath the lip of the bead, and then it's buried in that a little bit softer fur in front of it. And then, you know, you can just very carefully take a little bit of head cement, maybe thin the head cement a bit, put you put some thinner in some head cement so that it flows better, and just take a tiny drop and sneak it under that bead with [00:19:30.045] the point of your dubbing needle. That's the best I can tell you.
And use finer thread. If you're using like 6.0 or 8.0 thread, you might want to go to 10.0 or 12.0 thread. That's going to help you make a smaller collar. A lot of people like to see that collar, you know. A lot of people tie that collar in fluorescent green or bright pink or [00:20:00.050] bright orange for a hot spot. So, maybe you want to just forget about trying to hide it and put a little hot spot on your nymphs using that brightly-colored thread. But either way, I'm sure you'll get it. Takes a little practice, but you'll get it.
Here's one from Zack, "I was watching your Sparkle Dun tying video and you mentioned that was your go to fly during mayfly hatches, but didn't consider a great prospecting fly. In your opinion, what characteristics make a good fly for [00:20:30.009] prospecting or blind fishing compared to a fly you would use during a hatch? Thanks."
Well, Zack, the two most important things for prospecting fly, in my opinion, and both of them kind of relate to the same thing, are that it floats all day long, or it floats with retreatment and that I can see it. Because often with prospecting a dry fly, not only do you want to see the fly to know when a fish takes it, but even more important, you want to see [00:21:00.077] the fly to know where you put it, and if it's dragging or not. So, you really need that fly to be visible in that. So, that means a white parachute wing or a bright-colored parachute wing or something like a stimulator or a chubby Chernobyl where the wing sticks up out of the water. But just something that's visible and floats really well.
Now, I have actually used a Sparkle Dun type [00:21:30.059] when blind fishing, but it's more blind fishing when I know there has been a hatch. For instance, in the stream that I fish frequently, in the summertime, in the morning between say, 9:00 and 11:00, there's a blue wing olive that hatches, and it's about a size 18. And there's not many of them on the water. But the fish will eat them when they go by. And even if I don't see any rises, what I'll do [00:22:00.095] is I'll tie a Sparkle Dun with a fairly full wing so that I can see it on the water.
What I do this kind of fly is instead of using deer hair, I will use a light-gray, either EP fiber, or well, whatever fulling mills, high floating fiber is, I forgot the name [00:22:30.075] of it, but the high floating fiber that fulling mill or EP makes, and I make a really full wing on it, bigger than I normally would if I were matching the hatch. And so, you know, I figure I got the right color of the Dun body and a big wing that I can see. And I can even float a nymph, a small nymph on this fly, so that it's kind of a hatch matching kind of a prospecting fly. But in general, parachutes and [00:23:00.011] foam flies, either big or small, depending on what's on the water. Something that looks like a terrestrial is often a good prospecting fly, but you got to be able to see it.
Here's one from Eddie in Golden, Colorado, "I am in the early stages of fly tying. I have been tying with a headlamp thus far and want to buy some lights. Any recommendation on lamps? What type? How many? How bright? Etc. I fish mostly tailwaters here in Colorado, and fish a good size fish with small flies, mostly size [00:23:30.002] 22 and 24. Sometimes these small hooks will bend out and I will lose the fish. Now that I am able to tie many of these small nymph patterns myself, I am tempted to use only the heavier versions of the same hook. I fish in a heavily-pressured, technical river here. Do you think the heavier version hooks put off some fish?"
Now, Eddie, regarding your first question, in my opinion, you want two lights, and you want them as bright as you can possibly get [00:24:00.145] them without them being super-hot, which generally means an LED. You can't have too much light, in my opinion, when you're tying flies. I'll tell you what I use. It's not cheap. I found these things called Lume Cube Edge Lights. They come in a two pack and they're 269 bucks. But it's a soft light. They're made for live [00:24:30.020] streaming for people to get shadowless video of themselves when they're live streaming. But they come with adjustable clamps and goosenecks. And I can kind of orient them the way I want.
And generally, I have one directly on top of the fly, and I have one off to the right side of the fly. And by using two lights, I can pretty much eliminate all the shadows [00:25:00.077] when I'm tying. Because sometimes, if you have just one light overhead, if you've got your fingers in the way, you throw a shadow on the fly, and you can't see as well. So, I think two lights. You don't need to go as expensive as those Lume Cubes, but I'll tell you what, they work for me. But generally, any LED, photographic lights will work quite well. None of them are really inexpensive. But just whatever you do, get two of them, and get them just as bright [00:25:30.020] as you can possibly get them. That's going to help you a lot. That and a pair of 3X magnifying readers.
Regarding your heavier hooks, yeah, I would go the heavier hook. It's going to sink your fly better. You may not have to add as much weight to it. And I don't think the fish are bothered by the hook at all. If they're not bothered by a light hook, they're not going to be bothered by a heavier hook. So, I would go with the heaviest hook that you can get. Probably a wide [00:26:00.227] gap, heavy hook, with a short shank. And there's lots of those out there in the smaller sizes. But, yeah, I would absolutely go with a heavier hook and not worry about it whatsoever.
And finally, here's one from Tristan from Altadena, California, "I have a couple questions related to fishing while traveling. I'm a professional tennis player and I'm away from home around 9 to 10 months a year. When I'm [00:26:30.010] traveling, I'm usually only in a city for about a week since each tournament is week long. I recently started traveling with my fly rod, a 9-foot-5-weight, that's a five-piece, so it fits in my tennis bag after I picked up fishing again earlier this year since I usually get one or two afternoons per week, sometimes even a full day, where I don't play and I'm able to fish. Most tennis tournaments are during the warmer months all over Europe and the Americas, and there's usually somewhere decent to fly fish within one to two hours [00:27:00.042] of the tournament.
So, my questions are as following. Do you have any specific resources you recommend to find places nearby to fish when I'm in a new city? Is there a database or a website, or would you recommend just asking around or maybe visiting a fly shop if the city has one? Second, what rod would you recommend I bring that will let me get the most out of the widest variety of conditions since I have to carry it around and I'm tight on [00:27:30.108] space, I can only bring one? So, I'm wondering what you might do if you could only have one rod for the widest variety of fishing. I fish lake, small streams, and wider tailwaters with a 9-foot-5-weight, but I'm wondering if there's a different one you'd recommend. Is there a rod that I could bring that would let me fish for trout and bigger species like bass, or is a difference in weight that you need so big that that isn't even possible?
Finally, I have the same question but about flies. I have three small fly boxes like [00:28:00.092] the kind you'd hang off a lanyard, and I'm wondering what you would recommend that I fill them with so I'm equipped to fish a wide range of conditions and even species? If there is an accessible fly shop nearby where I go to fish, I usually go in and ask around and maybe get a couple flies that work for that area, but most times, there is not. I know that my fishing setup will never be ideal because I'm so limited on what I could bring. But I'd love your thoughts on what you think will help me have the most fun fishing on my days off." [00:28:30.024]
Well, Tristan, definitely ,the local fly shop is going to be your best bet for where to fish and what flies to use. That's going to be number one. The other thing is, if you are in the United States, there is a list of Orvis-endorsed guides and outfitters and lodges, and also, Orvis dealers on the Orvis website. So, you can check there in Orvis [00:29:00.090] retail stores and find out if there's one in the area. They're going to give you good tips on where to go and what flies to use. There is no database worldwide that's reliable, or even countrywide other than the Orvis and Doris network that I think is reliable. There's a whole bunch of apps that have recommendations in them, but they don't really have fly recommendations. And [00:29:30.096] they can tell you where the access points are, but it doesn't have all the information you want. So, fly shop is definitely going to be the way to go.
And I think what you need is a 9-foot-6 weight rod. That's going to be good enough for nearly all the trout fishing you do. If you need a little more delicacy, you can go to a 12-foot leader with a lighter tippet and get some delicacy. And that will throw most of your bass bugs and it will handle bass and carp. [00:30:00.081] Again, as you said, it's not ideal if you get a really big carp on there in fast water or something. It's going to bend the rod to its limit, but you'll be able to land it, and you can even fish for a smaller pike with it. And you're traveling the world, so who knows what you might encounter. But I think if you want to go trout and other species, a 9-foot-6-weight is the way to go.
Now, regarding flies, [00:30:30.010] everybody wants these lists of what essential flies to take. So, one, two, three, four, five six, I'm going to give you a list of eight flies that I would have if I were going to go fishing all over the world. And not to an exotic place like the Amazon or something [00:31:00.035] like that, but if I were going to fish in the United States and Europe and I could only have eight flies, here is what I would take. And for those of you who want this list, get your pencils out because I'm not going to put it in the podcast description. So, get your pencil out. If you're driving in the car, you'll have to listen to this again. Again, these are my favorites only, my opinion only. But the list I'm going to give [00:31:30.024] you, you should be able to catch trout, bass, carp, pike, panfish, and maybe some smaller inshore saltwater species on these flies. So, here we go.
Number 1, black woolly bugger size 8. Probably a conehead woolly bugger. Got to have it. Will catch nearly anything. Second one would be a Clouser Minnow in chartreuse and white size 4. It's a great baitfish imitation. [00:32:00.053] It'll catch all kinds of things in fresh and saltwater. Number 3, for a popper, I would take a gurgler. Bass will eat it. Just a standard gurgler, standard white gurgler, white and blue or whatever color you want. I think the color matters. It'll catch large mouth, small mouth. It'll catch fish in saltwater. It's a great, relatively easy to cast surface lure. The next one would be a parachute [00:32:30.090] atoms. And if you're going to fish for trout, you're going to want this in sizes 12 through 20. You're going to want a good size range of parachute atoms. Great dry fly. The second dry fly would be an elk hair caddis or an X caddis, either one, in size 12 through 18. And I would get just a tan or a gray one, and not worry about all the different colors. I don't think colors on caddis flies are that [00:33:00.067] super important in most rivers. So, just a neutral-colored elk hair caddis size 12 to 18.
For nymphs, I would have a beadhead pheasant tail nymph in sizes 12 through 18. There's lots of different beadhead pheasant tail nymphs, all kinds of varieties. Just get one that looks good to you, but get it in size 12 through 18. And then I [00:33:30.087] think this is number 7, a Hare's Ear beadhead nymph sizes 10 through 18. The pheasant tail imitates some of the smaller, slimmer caddis and stonefly and mayfly nymphs. And the Hare's Ear beadhead is going to imitate some of the broader, wider mayfly and stonefly and even caddis pupae. Again, size 10 through 18, you want to have a good size range there.
And then finally, [00:34:00.430] I would throw in a crazy Charlie size 4. It's a great bonefish, redfish fly, ladyfish will eat it. I've caught lots of carp on crazy Charlie. So, you know, I've caught shad on it. So, it's a good generic, kind of shrimpy, crabby, whatever bait fishy thing. But it's a great fly and it works. So, there's my eight to fish for all kinds of fish [00:34:30.010] anywhere in the world. And don't argue with me because it's my list, not yours. All right, that is the Fly Box for this week. Let's go talk to Tom and Reid about the 50 years of Orvis Graphite rods.
Reid: Welcome to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast". This is your host, Tom Rosenbauer. No, it's not. It's Reid Bryant, who's [00:35:00.083] here interviewing Tom Rosenbauer on his podcast. But it's a pleasure to be here. Tom, introduce yourself. Why don't you? Have you ever done this before?
Tom: Well, you know, when I have a guest on the podcast, Reid, I like the guest to know more than I do about a subject because it makes me more curious. And the subject of this week's podcast is 50 years of Orvis Graphite. And you know what? I hate to blow my own horn, but [00:35:30.056] I know more about this topic than anyone I know because I've lived those 50 years of Orvis Graphite. And I just spent two months researching the history of Orvis Graphite rod. So, I asked you because you already do "The Orvis Wingshooting Podcast", and you do a fantastic job. And so, I asked you to come over to the house and interview me for a change.
Reid: Yeah, well, [00:36:00.001] it's a privilege to be here. And it is remarkable. I mean, when we've been talking a lot around the company about 50 years of graphite, it's a big milestone for us. And it's an incredible when you think about it from a historical perspective, as you just said, you saw this happen with your own eyes. So, if you would just to kick it off, take us back to when you started at Orvis, when you walked in the rod shop for the first time, what was happening? [00:36:30.019] Where was the industry at? What was the fishing technology, fly rod scene looking like then? And what were you seeing in the rod shop at Orvis?
Tom: Well, I wasn't seeing anything in the rod shop, because I was I was hired as a clerk in the retail store. I was at the bottom of the totem pole. And basically, they needed a warm body who knew something about fly fishing in the retail store. As you know, sometimes retail is not the greatest job [00:37:00.010] in the world, and I certainly wasn't well suited for it. Luckily, I got out of there. But I was a I was a bamboo guy. I started out with fiberglass fly rods when I was a teenager, shortly before I was a teenager. And then I started tying flies commercially, and I was able to afford bamboo rods. My family was not by any stretch of the imagination wealthy. But I was tying flies commercially and [00:37:30.004] I was able to buy bamboo rods.
And so, when I got out of college and went to Orvis, the first graphite rods I ever saw were the ones hanging on the wall in the Orvis store. And I tried one out and I said, "Wow, this thing is really stiff and it really casts a long way, a lot longer than I could cast with my bamboo." And I took a graphite rod out to the Battenkill and was fishing. [00:38:00.253] What time of year it was? It was June, I guess, or July, so it was small flies, light leaders. And I didn't like the graphite at all. It was way too fast for, you know, what I was used to. And I kept slamming the fly on the water. And for the longest time, I didn't really... I mean, graphite rods were great for distances and powerful stuff. But for the longest time, I stuck to my bamboo rods until the graphite rods [00:38:30.056] got, you know, less stiff and, you know, a little bit more full flexing than the early ones.
Reid: And what's the general tendency? Because you're referencing a time when... From my understanding, you certainly know the history better than I do. Basically, the fiberglass was the new innovation. Bamboo was still very much core kind of piece of the fly rod market. And was graphite seen as this [00:39:00.078] wild new technology? Were sort of the younger anglers interested in it, but older were sort of turning up their noses? Like, what was the reception?
Tom: There were no younger anglers in those days, except for weirdos like me. They were all mostly old guys. And, no, it was a new, it was a revolution in fly rods. Really, it was Fenwick, the first, Fenwick, and then Shakespeare that came out with graphite rods. And, yeah, [00:39:30.010] I mean, it was the rage. It was what everyone was talking about. And at that time, you know, fiberglass rods were really common. But if you were serious about fly fishing, you probably had a bamboo rod. You know, if you if you fish more than a couple of times a year, if you fished once a week or more, you probably had a bamboo rod because honestly, they were better than fiberglass rods, at least, for trout fishing. [00:40:00.180]
Reid: So, when graphite came about, or when it was first becoming a piece of the kind of innovative place that rod making was in at that moment, what was the...? We talk a lot of hours, you know, you've been through these conversations about solving problems, right? We're always trying to solve problems on the outdoors. So, with graphite, what was the problem that was trying to be solved? Because certainly, as you said, you were very happy with bamboo. You know, people still, I still fish bamboo a lot. I love it. But [00:40:30.076] there must have been something that somebody saw in the industry in graphite that was a problem that needed to be solved in this new technology had the opportunity to solve that problem.
Tom: Yeah. Well, it was a couple of things. One was distance casting. And bamboo rods, some of them can cast quite a ways, but graphite rods, I think, could hold more line in the air because they were stiffer. And higher line speed. You're definitely going to get higher line speed for the most part [00:41:00.108] from a graphite rod. And lightness. I mean, you know, a bamboo salmon rod in those days weighed, I don't know, 10 ounces or something like that. I mean, it was tiring to cast a big, heavy bamboo rod or a bass rod or a steelhead rod. I mean, let's not even go with two-handed, two-handed rods weren't very weren't common in the states, except, you know, they were common in Europe, but they were big, heavy fiberglass [00:41:30.316] or bamboo rods. And so, it immediately became... And, you know, people always knew that that a longer a longer rod would be very useful in some areas. You know, nymphing and, you know, longer casts and stuff, but you couldn't... I mean, the long, bamboo rods were both heavy and they were wobbly. You know, they had a lot of...they didn't damp as well as shorter [00:42:00.212] bamboo rods.
Reid: And so, I guess, as this new material entered the scene, Orvis was a pretty early adopter. And as I understand it, Leigh Perkins was really instrumental in that adoption, right? Like, he sort of had that, whether it was just imagination or innovative zeal or wanted to get ahead of the market or whatever it was. But he was the one that was really driving us to figure out [00:42:30.094] what graphite could do. Is that correct?
Tom: Yeah, he was always an innovator and always wanted to be on the leading edge of things. And this is Simon, our current president's grandfather. And we were buying fiberglass blanks from Phillipson. And the Golden Eagle was a classic fiberglass rod. And it was a great rod. We were buying the blanks from Phillipson and then finishing them in our rod shop where they were, you know, finishing bamboo [00:43:00.085] rods, putting the real seats, and the windings on. Leigh said, "We really should be making our own fiberglass rods." So, he hired this young machinist from Maine named Howard Steer, had him build a new rod shop. The old rod shop was down on Union Street, where they made bamboo. And then they built this new rod shop in the parking lot next to the retail store with the machinery to make fiberglass rods. And so, Howard started rolling the [00:43:30.013] full flex blanks. Those were the first Orvis-made fiberglass blanks.
And when graphite came around, well, you could use the same machinery to make graphite rods. So, Leigh said, "Howard, you got to make graphite rods." Howard said,"Okay, Leigh." And there were a number of problems. One is that they had a bunch of really good craftsmen in the rod shop, but they knew nothing about rolling [00:44:00.020] rods. You know, they were planning bamboo and cutting bamboo and impregnating and everything else. And I remember this story, Jim West, who was a legendary rod maker in the Orvis rod shop. People that have been around know of Jim West because he was, like, the greatest customer service person ever. He would always figure out a way to make customer happy about his rod, [00:44:30.060] regardless of what he was doing.
And at the time, Jim was his young kid delivering the mail from the post office to the Orvis office. I guess, there was one office, just Leigh's office. And you walked in one day and Leigh said, "Hey, kid, you look pretty bright. You want to be a rod shop technician?" And Jim said, "Sure." And the rest was history. [00:45:00.040] And then, well, one of the things I always sort of knew, but did a bunch of research on because this fact is not in the Orvis history. It's not in the Orvis story, the Orvis corporate history. Paul Schiller, I asked Paul Schiller, who wrote the book, he didn't even know about this. But it's quite likely that the [00:45:30.022] Orvis blanks for the first year or two were not made in rod shop. They were made by Shakespeare for some of the models, and I believe, J. Kennedy Fisher for some of the other models until they could get... Well, they had trouble finding graphite, you know, of the right quality.
And at one of the board of directors meetings... Board directors was a bunch of [00:46:00.053] Leigh's buddies. And one of them was Bob Mitchell, who was VP of Celanese. And Leigh was complaining about not being able to find graphite. And Bob said, "Hey, Leigh, one of our divisions, Narmco makes graphite fiber. And I think I can get you some." And so, they got the supply of good low modulus graphite from Narmco, and then [00:46:30.081] started making our own graphite blanks, probably about two years down the line, I think, from '75.
Reid: Looking at your history, which is really amazing, comprehensive history of this process and this evolution. One of the things that you bring up a lot and talk about is what graphite was available and what graphite we were using. So, that first run of graphite where we were building blanks was a low modulus graphite, whereas it seemed like the industry was really touting high modulus [00:47:00.050] graphite. But it seems as though there were some benefit. You know, obviously in your head, you go, "Well, low can't be as good as high modulus." But there was actually some real benefits there. So, those early rods, what worked? What were the successes at the early stages?
Tom: Well, high modulus graphite, you could build a faster rod, stiffer rod, and you could probably make a longer rod. But the problem was that high modulus graphite was fairly brittle [00:47:30.028] in those days. I mean, it's better now and we use it now. But in those days, it was pretty brittle. And graphite rods had a reputation for breakage easily, a lot easier than bamboo. The early ones were a ton more fragile than bamboo. People think bamboo rods are so fragile, but they're solid. They're not hollow. And, you know, you can whack a bamboo rod pretty hard on a tree limb and not hurt it. Graphite rods, boom, [00:48:00.010] or you could even step on a bamboo rod and maybe not damage it, but stepping on a hollow tube within walls, they were they were fragile. And they broken fish a lot.
And the or early orifice rods didn't break as easily as the high modulus rods because of that low modulus graphite, you know, it had better flexural strength. And actually, [00:48:30.001] everybody was putting a fair amount of fiberglass in their graphite rods as scrim. You needed something to maintain the hoop strength on the outside of the rod. And so, they were using what's called scrim. And that's stuff that was rolled on the outside of the fiberglass tube to give it strength. So, the orifice rods were stronger in those days, but they were slower. [00:49:00.022] They were great casting tools.
One of the things that Howard inherited from the great West Jordan, the great bamboo rod maker was to make rods that don't break. West Jordan hated rod repairs. He did not like having rods come back broken because it was a pain in the butt, you know. And generally, they repaired them for free because the customer would always say, "Oh, it [00:49:30.099] just broke in casting," so, they'd repair them or replace them, whatever, repair them usually. And so, Howard had that same philosophy that, "I'm going to make a rod that's not going to break because I don't want rod repairs. I don't want broken rods coming back in the rod shop," even though a lot of them did. So, he would make a rod that maybe wasn't as thin at the tip as other manufacturers, [00:50:00.062] which made the rods feel tip heavy because they were stronger. They wouldn't they wouldn't break as easily.
Reid: Right, right. So, Howard Steer was basically guiding that transition, well, from, I guess, bamboo and glass to graphite. So, you have a totally different material. What was his taper strategy? I mean, how do you go to a totally new material, you know, in the era of not...? [00:50:30.087] You know, I'm assuming they were doing drawings and schematics and stuff or whatever they were doing.
Tom: I doubt it.
Reid: We're just wrapping up commandments, who knows? But how did he come up...? Because... Sorry, I'm going to interrupt myself yet again, as I do, I apologize. But he was coming up with new tapers that were suited for graphite. But they're reminiscent of some of the early, or they're reminiscent of some of the glass and almost some of the bamboo tapers are shorter rods. They're, you know, sort of fuller flexing rods. So, how did that taper [00:51:00.158] design happen?
Tom: Yeah, well, I don't know how Howard designed rods. There were certainly weren't any computer programs. And I don't think there was any calculation involved. I think a lot of it was just experimentation and trial and error. But you're exactly right, they were they were trying to duplicate bamboo rods like 7.5 for a 5-weight and 7-foot for a 4 weight and, you know, 8-foot-6-weight. [00:51:30.094] They were trying to duplicate the same action and the same tapers as the bamboo rods.
Reid: Interesting. And then there were some early... I know you tell one great story about the Far & Fine where it was, it does seem very much what you're saying. It was sort of a, "Hey, let's just try building things and putting things together and see what happens." Do you mind just sharing that? I love that story.
Tom: Yeah, well, I think it was Jim West came to Howard one day and said, "Hey, Jim, I made this new rod. Want to try it?" And they went out in the pond and [00:52:00.028] they both liked it. Cast really well. And I think it was a 7.5-foot butt section. And then he fitted an 8-foot tip section on it. So, it ended up 7-foot-9-inches. I think the math is right. Anyway, it was a butt from one and a tip from another. And that became the Far & Fine, which was one of the [00:52:30.060] most popular early Orvis rods of all times. And, you know, that was our rod design, was done in those days. Let's slap these two things together and see what happens. And I think some of the other ones like the 8-foot-3-inch all-rounder and the 9-foot3--inch spring creek, I think those were probably designed the same way.
I mean, today, you know, there's calculations and computer programs and [00:53:00.040] flex boards and prototypes done. And, you know, the purpose of the rod is thought of first. And then the tapered works back from the kind of rod you want. And then it goes through lots of evaluation, breakage evaluation, vibration reduction evaluation. It's a long process, like two-year process. But in those days, you know, was slap things together and see what [00:53:30.074] works.
Reid: Yeah, it's so funny. In fact, part of the reason I love that story is because my first sort of good graphite fly rod was a Far & Fine, a Rocky Mountain Far & Fine. I still have and I still love it. And it's a really unique action. But it always struck me as odd that the sections were different lengths. And I never knew why. I just thought it was some... I don't know why. But that's so funny that that's how it were.
Tom: That's why the sections were different lengths. Yeah, I mean, you could have made a 7-foot-9-inch two-piece rod that [00:54:00.015] was, you know, equal right lengths. But, no, they didn't.
Reid: That's so funny. But, yeah, and just as a as a sidebar, though, we'll probably speak about this a little bit later, one of the things that we've also done, I know you've been talking a lot about and I've been hearing a lot about lately is we brought back some of those older tapers. So, in our current Superfine Graphite lineup, which is new this year. Is that right?
Tom: Yeah. And, no, that's not correct. We did not bring back the old tapers.
Reid: Oh, we didn't. I'm sorry.
Tom: Oh, no, [00:54:30.092] the only thing the new Superfines share with the old Superfines is the name. Those were totally... And they're the same length and line size as the old Superfines, but they're totally designed from scratch tapers that, you know, utilized everything we've learned since those days, materials and the tapers. So, yeah, the Far & Fine is still 7-foot-9-inch for a 5, [00:55:00.058] but it is not the same rod by any stretch of imagination.
Reid: Not the same rod. Yeah, that's good. Well, thanks for the correction.
Tom: Yeah, there's so much better. Believe me, they're so much better.
Reid: You know, I do love just even in the naming convention that we're sort of remembering. I don't know. There's something cool about that, just sort of looking back in history. So, as we move to kind of what I think of as, like, the middle years of graphite technology, what I think about and I'd love for you to comment [00:55:30.264] on is all of a sudden, it seems like some of the industry trends change. You had tournament casters that were looking for distance. You had Western flying lures that were fishing bigger water that wanted different things. You had, you know, you referred to as the wiggle test, a lot of people going into fly shops and wiggling a rod and sort of saying, "Oh, this feels less powerful than this, and therefore, I'm going to take the more powerful one." Where they weren't even actually getting out a fishing rod. So, there's...
Tom: Yeah, the wiggle test in the parking lot test. You know, go out in the [00:56:00.020] parking lot and see how far you can throw a fly line.
Reid: Yeah. So, maybe talk about how the trends change, because you do see it also in the rods that we are producing became, you know, longer. Sort of we were trying to accomplish something slightly different than we were when we started out.
Tom: Yeah, we tried. And in between years, you know, '90s, '80s, '90s, and even into the 2000s, we struggled a lot. [00:56:30.010] And there were a number of reasons. One is that, you know, the philosophy that you don't make rods that break. And you make rods that don't break by not making the tip so thin. And people would go in and cast a competitor's rod and it would feel really light because the tip was a lot thinner and lighter. And Howard didn't want to make those rods. And also, Howard didn't want to buy new mandrels. Howard was a [00:57:00.033] thrifty manner. And I remember him telling me once, you know, "Those things cost a lot of money," because, you know, they were reusable, stainless steel, carefully-tapered mandrels, and they had to be custom made. And, you know, they were expensive, but you weren't going to get any new tapers. And, you know, Howard would try to move up or down the same mandrel to create a different taper. Well, it wasn't a different taper really.
And so, we struggled, you know, we struggled. We [00:57:30.038] tried to make faster rods. We tried to make rods that were...they were never light enough in the tip to satisfy a lot of people. They did get faster. They did get crisper. And I don't remember. I think we're still using low modulus graphite then, maybe some intermediate modulus graphite. But it wasn't really until Jim Logan came into the rod shop after Howard [00:58:00.019] retired. And Jim looked and he found that we hadn't bought any new mandrels or any new machines in 10 years. And the graphite industry had really advanced. And Howard wasn't going to buy a new machinery. So, Logan spent $1.1 million of what? 1999 money or something like that. And I remember him telling me, the CFO, Tom Vaccaro came into [00:58:30.050] his office and said, "You're spending money like a drunken sailor. What the hell are you doing?" And Jim said, you know, "We're going to make fly rods. We got to spend some money on machines and new mandrels."
So, you know, Jim really brought the graphite into the modern age. He bought new machines, bought new mandrels, and then he got hold of a [00:59:00.072] thermoplastic resin backed graphite that using fly rods, has both a fiber component and an epoxy component. And the thermoplastic resins that held the graphite fibers together and cured them was a new thing. It was used in aerospace and military aircraft and things like that. And so, Jim brought the thermoplastics into the rods, and they really started to improve with the, [00:59:30.010] I think, the T3 was the first thermoplastic rod.
Reid: Okay, interesting. And about that time, too, I would imagine, part of that justification or maybe that push to really invest in graphite in a big way, I mean, there was a lot of competition in the marketplace all of a sudden, right?
Tom: Yeah, yeah, a lot.
Reid: You had Holgerson, you had Sage, you had T&T doing stuff. So, I imagine there were sort of that, "Hey, we got to tighten our belts here and make some stuff happen."
Tom: Yeah, yeah. And our sales rep would say, "Come on, guys, we got to make a faster rod. [01:00:00.085] We got to make one that bends more at the tip. We got to pass that wiggle test in the shop." And, you know, it was a struggle just convincing Leigh Perkins to let us sand the rods so that they had a smooth finish. Because when graphite comes out of the oven, it's got ridges on it from the heat shrink tape that constricts the graphite around the mandrel. And it's like a tire tread almost. And Orvis always called it the honorable scar. [01:00:30.022] And, you know, said that, well, sanding those ridges off is going to weaken the blank. Well, it really wouldn't. But Leigh didn't want to sand our rods. And we said, "Leigh, we're losing it. We're losing it. The other rods are prettier, they're shiny, and people like them better." We had to start sanding. And finally, Perk and Jim LaPage, Perk, Leigh's son, and who later became president and CEO, and Jim LaPage, convinced Leigh that we should start [01:01:00.058] sanding blanks.
Reid: Yes, you bring up Perk's kind of entry into the... So, listeners, I assume know that the Perkins family is in its third generation of ownership. So, Simon's the president now. Simon's dad, Perk, was the president's CEO, as you said, for that intermediate period. And then Leigh was the grandfather who purchased the company in '65. So, when Perk came in, he brought with him some new ideas, some fresh concepts. So, what did that period of time look like? And what were the [01:01:30.080] changes that happened? Because it seems as though there was a lot that, right around that era of, like, what was that? I guess, the '90s, really things started to shift a little bit.
Tom: Yeah, well, Perk is brilliant, absolutely one of the most brilliant individuals I've ever met. And he looked at rod repairs. And most of the rod repairs that we did, we were doing for free. Because people would send in a rod and say, "Oh, it just broke [01:02:00.115] in casting," or, "I was playing a fish and it broke." So, we'd say, "Oh, okay." Even though there were, like, tiger tracks on them and stuff, you know. And so, we'd replace them because the customer is always right. We'd replace the... Because you can't repair a graphite rod. You've got to replace the tip or the butt or whatever.
And he looked at that and he said, "Damn, we're paying for all these repairs and we're not getting any marketing credit for it. So, why don't we just put a 25-year [01:02:30.455] guarantee on them and tell people they can break them any way they want and we'll replace the section." And why 25 years? I often wondered that, you know, why not lifetime or whatever? And it was advice from the legal team, "Make it 25 years since you have some kind of..." I don't know. So, there was some legalese involved in that, so we made it 25 years.
And, you know, it was a it was a great idea. [01:03:00.047] A lot of other rod manufacturers didn't like it because, you know, they had to follow suit, or else they were going to be behind things. And so, you know, to this day, it's still something we use. And it was a brilliant marketing idea. And it's great for the consumer. And Perk said, you know, "All of a sudden people got really honest." You know, the guy rode in and said he had a rattlesnake [01:03:30.028] on a railroad tracks that that was coming after him and he whacked it with his graphite rod and broke the rod chasing the rattlesnake away. And, you know, he was honest about it, whereas before, he probably would have said, "No, it just broke in casting."
Reid: Right, right. Yeah, it is. I mean, it is when you think about it. And I even remember as a young guy when that little card, you know, was a black and gold card with the 25 year?
Tom: Yeah.
Reid: It did kind of make you think like, "Why would I buy anything [01:04:00.096] else?" It definitely was a brilliant move on Perk's part. And he also came up... And I don't know how long what the longevity of this was, but he wanted to come up with a more systematized kind of flex rating. Like, there was the idea of a faster, a slow rod or mid flex or tip flex or, you know, full flex rod. Like, that was his kind of baby for a period.
Tom: Yeah. So, you know, he got this idea from a [01:04:30.028] tennis rackets. Apparently, they used flex ratings on tennis rackets. And so, the idea was to measure the rod at various points, and then create an index out of that that would describe how the rod flexed, how the action was. So, no more fast, medium, slow, because that means a lot of different things to a lot of people. To some people, a fast rod means one that bends a lot more at the tip than the butt. Other people call a stiff rod a fast rod. [01:05:00.004] So, you know, there was no consensus on what a faster, slow rod was.
And so, Perk had Jim LaPage developed this flex index, which took an entire summer. He had to actually hire his kids to measure all these rods. And then so, you would have a, you know, mid-flex 8.6. And if you liked your 8.6 flex index 6-weight, then when you bought a 4 weight, you know, you want to look [01:05:30.153] for a flex index that's similar to that. The problem was that it didn't tell people the use of that rod. It told them how it flexed, but it didn't tell them what the rod was going to be good for. And so, it was a great idea. We had hoped that the industry would adopt that flex index system. Nobody wanted to because it was an Orvis system. So, [01:06:00.031] it kind of fell by the wayside.
And I think that the D and the F determination that we use in Helios is a lot more intuitive and better. Because the D and the F tell you what this rod is better for. Like the F is a finesse rod. It's a little bit more mid flexing, a little bit more delicate. And the D is more of a faster rod [01:06:30.010] for high winds and long casts and bigger flies. So, you know, it gave people a better idea of what the rod could be used for. So, I think it makes more sense to do it that way.
Reid: Right, right. So, as we're kind of still in that later middle period where it seems like we're trying a lot of different things. There's some hits. There's some misses. Things some things that are working, things that are not. And then along comes Helios. And Helios is really... [01:07:00.033] I mean, I'd love your perspective on this. When Helios came out and when it was being developed, did you know that something significant was about to happen? Because I look at it, again, and very much, I still consider myself a consumer. I'm just looking at what's out there in the landscape and identifying the rods that I like or that are getting a lot of buzz. Helios really changed the game. Did you see that coming? And what was the process that led up to Helios making the splash that it made?
Tom: Well, [01:07:30.069] it was kind of a long process. And there's a couple of pieces to it. One is that long time ago... I'm going to check my notes here because I want to quote something from Jim LaPage. So, Jim LaPage had read this Cal Poly study by graduate student named Matt Hooper in the 1990s. And Matt had analyzed the vibrations of a rod after a cast is completed. [01:08:00.010] Jim said, they found out that there was a first, a second, a third, and a fourth harmonic at 7 hertz, 16 hertz, and then into the high 20s. So, a good caster could modulate the first and second harmonics with good casting form. But Jim said, "Beyond that, we didn't have the technology to dampen those higher harmonics." He said, "It was kind of an aha moment. But the time, we couldn't do anything about it."
And then around 1994, [01:08:30.094] I think I was head of product development then. And I got a phone call from this very quiet guy with a kind of a slow voice. And he said that he worked on nuclear submarines and he had a way of damping the vibrations and the fly rods. And at first, I thought it was one of my buddies goofing on me because we used to goof on each other quite a bit in those days. [01:09:00.078] And the more I talked to the guy, more I realized he was serious. And so, he came up to Orvis and he had this compound that would be injected into the tip of the rod to damp the vibrations. And we called it the Trident Rod, you know, after the nuclear submarines. And it worked. It worked.
The problem was that by squirting [01:09:30.373] this noodle, as we called it, into the tip of the rod, made them really tip heavy. And they work pretty well. And I wish I still had one. But nobody liked them because we were going backwards in that. You know, like, tip game, we were going back into the heavier tips. And so, it cast really well, but people didn't like it because it was heavy. Then they said, "Okay, why don't we squirt the reals under the cork [01:10:00.001] grip where the blank meets the cork." And that didn't really do much. So, that was the Trident TL or tip light. So, we took the secret goop out of the tip and put it in the handle. That didn't work that well.
But, you know, we still always thought that if we could somehow lessen those vibrations, we could get a better tracking [01:10:30.085] rod. And so, what happened was in around 2010 or so, Jim Logan working with a... And by the way, we never found out what that compound was used for in nuclear submarines. I suspect it was to damp vibrations, like, when somebody dropped a wrench in a sub, because you don't want to make any noise because the enemy could [01:11:00.133] hear you. But I don't know. We never found out what it was used for. But then we had another consultant named John Hattie. And John worked for the aerospace industry for a prepreg company that made graphite. Prepreg is the combination of the graphite and the resin. And he had a top secret clearance. And he brought us this material that was thermoplastic and thermoset [01:11:30.031] resin, which allowed us to make an even stronger, lighter rod. And that combined with a bunch of taper improvements.
And John was up in the rod shop. In fact, Frank Hoard, who works in the rod shop, still does. Now he's head of head of production, I think. Said that at times he thought he worked for John Hattie, who was a consultant because John was up there all the time. John would go through boxes of broken rods to figure out how they broke. [01:12:00.008] And then he would come back with a new material to try. And, of course, we couldn't buy that material outright because it was, you know, government contracts, top secret, and everything. But John was able to tack on a little bit extra graphite in some of the orders, and then he'd bring it up to Orvis. And we said, you know, "John, are we violating some kind of..." Because they were using [01:12:30.006] F-16 control surfaces and Apache helicopter blades. And we said, "John, are we breaking some kind of national secrecy by using this material?" And John said, "No." He said, "As long as it flies, I can work on it. And these are fly rods, so we're okay." So, anyway, we got this new thermoplastic thermoset and that's [01:13:00.162] how the Helios came about. That's how we were able to make, at the time, the world's lightest rod. And that was still as strong or stronger than rods we were making in the past.
Reid: And also, through that same construction or through the material, I guess, it would be, you were able to get rid of some of those vibrations. You were able to dampen the rods in a way that you hadn't before.
Tom: They were able to dampen them, but it wasn't until later that [01:13:30.013] the guys in the rod shop had another consultant who developed a machine that would photograph a rod damping at high speed. And then through a computer program graph out, how the rod responded and the harmonics. And then they would go and work on tapers, and then put them back on the machine to try to dampen those vibrations. So, still using the same material, but different construction [01:14:00.205] and different tapers, different materials, too.
Oh, the other thing on the Helios rods was that for the first time, we were able to use a graphite scrim. You know, up until that point, we were still using fiberglass scrim to give the rod hoop strength. And finally found, I think through John Hattie, a graphite scrim that would make the rod lighter. Because fiberglass is a heavier, [01:14:30.146] softer material than graphite, so we're able to put less scrim in the rod and make it even stronger. So, the combination of those three things, thermoplastic, thermoset, graphite scrim, and then the redesign of the tapers was what made the Helios what it is today.
Reid: I want to talk in a moment about sort of, culturally, what the reception was within the industry and what the consumer reception for Helios was. But before we do, one of the other things, because this [01:15:00.031] kind of coincides with, about the time that I started the company 10, 11, 12 years ago, thereabouts when I guess H2 was coming into the moment, into its moment. But one of the things also that happened about that time is Don Swanson, who's our current rod shop, you know, director, I guess, that's his title. He runs the rod shop. He came in, he automated a lot of things. He really advanced some technologies. He also was able to do this really pretty dramatic improvement in our repair or replacement process. [01:15:30.364] If you could speak to that a little bit because that's really a big thing.
Tom: Yeah. Well, Don was an equity owner and manager of the Able real company. So, you know, he knew his way around a machine shop and tooling and tapers and all those other things. And up to that point, the flags or the shape of the graphite when it's flat, they were cut, they're cut in, [01:16:00.033] I guess, you'd call it a parallelogram or some sort of geometric shape.
Reid: One of those shapes.
Tom: Yeah, one of those shapes. And they were cut by hand with a razor blade and a straight edge. And, you know, that was not always consistent. And so, Don invested in some machines that use the laser guide to cut those graphite flags so that they were absolutely [01:16:30.448] the same. And he also did some other things that were, you know, I think still are proprietary and trade secrets and I can't talk about. But in those days, prior to Don, I think the tolerances on a section of rod was like 20,000ths of an inch. And so, if you broke a rod, no guarantee that we can't just send [01:17:00.151] you a tip because they had to be hand fitted because there was a lot of variation in the rods. The Farrells wouldn't fit right.
So, Don got those tolerances down to a 1,000th of an inch, which is less than... I think a sheet of paper is 3,000ths of an inch. So, incredibly tight tolerances in those sections. And so, now, if somebody breaks a tip [01:17:30.180] section or a midsection on a four piece rod, you just fill out a form online and we send out a new tip. We stock them. We stock tips and butts and mid tips and mid butts. And, you know, somebody can have a replacement section in, you know, as little as five days, instead of having to send the rod back, have somebody look it over, hand fit the Farrells. You know, that could take a month or more. So, that was a [01:18:00.056] really big advantage in in our rods. And I don't think anybody else is doing it still.
Reid: No, and it's incredible. Like, it's not a flashy thing to say. But when you have that experience of breaking a rod, I mean, I've had rods from other manufacturers that you send away, and six months later, you still haven't gotten the thing back. And really, you know, puts you in a position of either not fishing or buying another rod. I mean, we have a lot to do. And the fact that, [01:18:30.038] again, I want to emphasize that because it really is an incredible advance in technology that you can be able to literally call up and say, "Hey, I'm guiding on Tuesday. It's Sunday. Can you express me whatever a tip because I need it?" Just remarkable that we were able to do that. It's really special.
So, as we kind of move up to modern times, we're in our fourth incarnation of the iteration of the Helios. That's doing great. [01:19:00.249] You know, taking really graphite to really the most advanced level that I would say that it's reached in fly rod technology in the industry to date with just incredible accuracy, incredible performance, still some variability. And do you want to more of a finesse application? Do you want more of that power sort of wind punching, you know, that more powerful approach to casting? But what do you think? I mean, it seems to me that [01:19:30.010] with Helios... And this is totally subjective. You can push back on this. But Orvis went from being kind of a traditional or sort of older brand to really being a leader of cutting edge, you know, manufacturer in the industry. Do you see that as being true? Do you feel like that is always a thing?
Tom: No, it's true. It's true. And, you know, people are not stupid. They're not going to believe all your marketing. You know, [01:20:00.064] the proof is in the product that you provide. And once people tried Helios rods, you know, we converted a lot of people that were ardent fans of other brands to Helios rods, because they felt better. They cast better. They were more durable. So, yeah, Helios has been a huge advantage for us in in the market because they're just so much better. [01:20:30.002]
Reid: Yeah, yeah. No, it's really remarkable. And it's been such a neat thing to watch. So, when you think about... Okay, so you're looking back over, we'll call it, 50 years of graphite, you know, basically, a half century of development of graphite fly rods. I think it's easy sitting in the present moment to say, "We've gone as far as we can go. This is this is the end." What do you think the future holds? I mean, if you were to try to identify right now a problem. You know, we go back to that idea of [01:21:00.125] what problem needs to be solved. Is there a problem that needs to be solved, or are we just going to, you know, sort of see a static period? Or do you think that there's going to be someone who innovates in some way that we can't even imagine today?
Tom: Yeah, there'll never be a static period. I mean, graphite fly rods, you know, they're a technology, right. And they will get better. And I mean, we after Helios 2, I thought, "Oh, we can't make a better rod [01:21:30.068] than after Helios 3. I said, "Well, where are we going to go from here?" And he the latest generation of Helios, which I can't call Helios for because we're just calling them Helios now, you know, they're better. They're better. They're more accurate. They're lighter. They're more fun. They're easier to cast. And so, there will be advances. And I don't know if it's in materials in taper. I've [01:22:00.000] always thought that we've got to figure out a new way to make guides on rods, because we're using a technology that's, you know, one hundred and fifty years old, almost snake guides, you know, bent pieces of wire. It's got to be a better way to hold the line to run.
Jim LePage and I experimented with this years ago. And we worked on these rods where the line would go up the center of the [01:22:30.068] rod and wouldn't come outside the rod at all. Because, you know, you got a lot of slap on the rod and you got air resistance of that line hanging between those guides. There's got to be a better way. And I'm not clever enough to figure out what that'll be. But I just can't believe that we can't come up with a better way of holding line to rods. And somebody a lot smarter than me will come up with it someday. But, you know, the rods will probably get lighter and thinner. They [01:23:00.093] can get thinner with improvements in materials and tapers. You know, thinner is less air resistance, going to be lighter. But beyond that, I don't know. And even if I knew, I couldn't tell you.
Reid: Or you'd keep that million dollars they gave.
Tom: You know, they are always experimenting in the rod shop with new materials, new tapers, new designs. They're always [01:23:30.039] three years ahead of what you see in the market.
Reid: Yeah, yeah. That was one of the things that was amazing to me. This is more sort of personal anecdote, but it was amazing to me when I first came to work at Orvis and I was working the office. You were in there. We've sort of gone remote since COVID. But it was fascinating to me to see how the development process on the ground worked literally with having you, Dave Perkins, Simon, Sean Combs going out to the pond and just casting rods, [01:24:00.027] constantly casting rods. And I think that people probably don't get a sense of how personal a process it is. Not only is there sort of this incredible technology behind it, but then it's putting rods in the hands of people like yourself and going out on the pond and casting or going fishing and really putting these things to the test. It's not as though we come up with these concepts, put them into production, and don't spend a lot of time out there on the water with people like you, people like Combs.
Tom: Well, then they go out in the field with guides [01:24:30.061] and ambassadors and people like that. But full disclosure, I am not on the team that evaluates rods. I'm not a good enough caster. I would occasionally wander out there and they'd let me cast it and ask me what I felt. But I was never on the A team for rod development.
Reid: Well, I'm sure your insights and your time on the water helped nonetheless.
Tom: I don't know.
Reid: I'm sure. What else? What else? You know, [01:25:00.118] in this process, I guess, as we're kind of coming to a conclusion here, when you started to dig into the history, was there anything that popped up for you that you'd either forgotten, or people that you felt like were really instrumental, or just sort of fond memories of this process that stood out for you?
Tom: Yeah, I mean, it was a lot of things that I saw over the years, but maybe I'd forgotten about. You know, I had to dig a lot about the early blanks coming from [01:25:30.145] Fenwick. I actually talked to an old friend from the past named Eric Jeska, who was the nephew of Henry Shakespeare. And he talked to his uncle before he died. And he said, "Did you ever make rods for...?" And Henry Shakespeare told him, "Well, we made some blanks for those guys up in Vermont." And Eric said, "You mean Orvis?" [01:26:00.281] And he said, "Yeah, those guys". That's the best that I could do.
And also. looking at the early Shakespeare graphites, which Eric has some samples of in the early Orvis, the tapers were the same. They were interchangeable. So, I suspect that again, I don't know. I think Leigh just didn't want to let anybody know that we didn't make blanks for the first year or two. And so, you know, [01:26:30.089] it wasn't even in the Orvis history. It was just kind of kept quiet.
Reid: Yeah. Well, it's an amazing story. It's amazing half century. And, you know, I think one of the things that's just remarkable to me, too, is that we have this 50 years of innovation graphite. We have almost 170 years of building fly rods. I mean, it's just, you figure you can't do something that long and not learn a thing or two, or you better learn a thing or two. So, it's really an incredible history. [01:27:00.073] Tom, it was a pleasure talking to you about this and getting this story straight from the source.
Tom: Well, thanks. It's fun being interviewed as opposed to being the interviewee.
Reid: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we'll have to do it again. We got to come up with something else to chat about.
Tom: All right. Or I'll come on your podcast.
Reid: Oh, that would be a good one.
Tom: You know, I don't think I could. I can't give you any expert tips on upland hunting.
Reid: No, but you've spent a lot of time with a lot of the legends of hunting at Orvis. And [01:27:30.259] we're sitting at your house and I know there were some great mornings had out shooting ducks back this way. So, yeah.
Tom: Yeah, there were.
Reid: I need to hear some of those stories and more.
Tom: All right.
Reid: Excellent. Well, thank you again.
Tom: Thank you, Reid. Really appreciate you coming in and interviewing me today.
Automated Voice: Thanks for listening to "The Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast" with Tom Rosenbauer. You can be a part of the show. Have a question or a comment? Send it to us at